Video Gamers Podcast - Mr. Sleepy Man - Dev Interview with Devin Santi – Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Gaming hosts Ryan and Ace are joined by indie dev Devin Santi to dive into Mr. Sleepy Man! This unique and charming game delivers a dreamlike adventure filled with surprises. We chat with Devin about the title’s development, artistic vision, and what it takes to bring an indie video game to life. It’s a video game packed episode that’s a must-listen for indie gaming fans! All the gaming news you need, every week from the Video Gamers Podcast! Thanks to our MYTHIC supporters: Redletter, Disratory, Ol’ Jake, Gaius, Jigglepuf, Phelps, NorwegianGreaser and Dettmarp. Thanks to our Legendary Supporters: HypnoticPyro, PeopleWonder and Bobby S. Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/videogamerspod⁠⁠⁠ Join our Gaming Community: ⁠⁠⁠https://discord.com/invite/Dsx2rgEEbz⁠⁠⁠ Follow us on Instagram:⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/⁠⁠⁠  Follow us on X:⁠⁠⁠ https://x.com/VideoGamersPod⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to us on YouTube:⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@VideoGamersPod?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠    Visit us on the web:⁠⁠⁠https://videogamerspod.com/⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, fellow gamers. Welcome to the video gamers podcast. I am your host, Ryan, and joining us today, we have someone who may be still in Mr. Sleeping Man, but I think he's woken up from his vacation. It's Ace. Hey, I'm back, man. I am definitely a little bit of Mr. Sleeping Man.

I won't lie, but I am here regardless. Sometimes it takes a little bit to get back in the flow, you know? It takes a bit to wake up and get back out there. And joining us today, a special guest, someone who is maybe a superior musician to all of us, a game designer, many, many, many talents that most of us wish we had. It is the one, the only, Devin, the Mr. Sleepy Man himself.

Yo, how we doing? Hey, we're doing great. We are so stoked to talk to you. We cover this game in our indie episodes, and we're pretty excited to have you here. You're the creative force behind Mr. Sleepy Man. You know, you're a solo developer. You got many, many hats that you're wearing right now.

You're musician, programmer, composer, game designer, You know, can you, can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself? Share us with some of the background and kind of where this all started for you. Yeah, I guess I'm a masochist because this is just like, it is no pun intended, a nightmare. But at the same time, it's like it's half nightmare, half like creative, like revolution. Like, it's so fun. I love making games. It's like the best thing.

It's been an awakening making this game. Oh, really. With awakening, you say. Yeah, an awakening, yeah. Ah, right, right? I'm already starting with the puns. But anyway, like, I started as a musician, like, just making music and, like, funny YouTube videos. And I'll say the core of the creative force going into Mr. Sleeping Man was, like, I was kind of, like, artistically split.

Like, I would make kind of, like, I would make serious music, and then I would make funny videos, and I really didn't know how to, like, blend the two worlds together. And when I stumbled upon the creative idea of Mr. Sleeping Man, the idea of just, like, easy. this wacky silly sleepy guy but there are nightmares and the nightmares are coming for him it was like it just like clicked i was like okay this is perfect like artistic i can do anything i wanted to do artistically and i wouldn't be like confined by you know let's say like you whenever you do something creative it's like you're almost like sometimes you're putting yourself in a box but because mr sleepy man is like this dream world aesthetic there are no rules yeah and that kind of just allowed me to do whatever i wanted that's pretty nice

Yeah, that's cool. I love that. We recently, we covered a split fiction too recently. That is a game that dives into the mind of these characters to where it's taking all their ideas. And, you know, then kind of anything you can create is the limit, you know, basically, which is, which is such a cool idea and a premise. So with you, you know, you're saying, creating this from the dreams and the minds and stuff, as a gamer yourself, like, What, did you always kind of lend towards these types of games, platformer styles, or, or is this just like a nostalgia throwback type thing? Or, or do you favor something else? And, um, you know, and then this is just what kind of lent it itself to what, you know, your, your artistic expression was with, with the songs that you created. Like, where did this game come from? And like, uh, what, what do you normally play? You know, I love 30 platformers. I love, okay. I love Mario 64. Heck yeah. I love, I'm a huge Nintendo. nerd. I love Zelda. I love all that. Um, and, you know, I, I didn't necessarily intend to, like, just make, like, a, a cookie cutter, like, 3D platformer. If anything, it was just, like, the character controller of a 3D platformer is so fun that I just, like, there's something just so expressive about it that it just, it's just what I wanted to do creatively. Like, I didn't

mean, it wasn't even necessarily a conscious thought of, like, oh, what kind of game am I going to make? It's just, like, naturally, that's what I gravitated towards. And it was kind of a mistake, because I learned quickly that the reason why there aren't that many 3D platformers is because they're incredibly difficult to develop so really the first like two years we're just trying to get a working character controller and just like banging my head against the wall

and the idea of just like, okay in 3D platformers usually the gameplay loop is just like you're running around and you're collecting things and you're jumping on stuff and that's it and I always like wondered why is there never more to a 3D platformer I want to do more exploration

more interactivity and that's because like it takes so long to make a 3D platform so just like even the idea of doing this as a sole developer is like not a good idea if anyone like asked me for advice I'd say don't follow your dreams don't do it don't it's I was I was lucky that there was a global pandemic but if there wasn't a global pandemic this game wouldn't exist you're like I got nothing but time we're good to go seriously oh that's awesome I will the thing that we noticed um Ace and I both played a lot of your demo and we fell in love and um it was not a normal 3D platformer so you know ace you got anything you want to talk about with your you know kind of gameplay on that demo because he's the one that brought it up to us he's like you guys got to check out this game

and he's a little younger than me um you know so i grew up in that nintendo uh a platformer super mario like that was the core of my childhood so this resonated so deeply with me so for someone a little younger, like, Ace, what was your, what was your gameplay like? I'm not that much younger. Like, come on now. I've still played some 3D platformers. Oh, no, no, no. You're the expert for sure, but I'm just saying like, that was my core 90s childhood with the platformers on 64. So, well, for me, like, I found this game when I was looking for Next Fest demos for us to review, and it wasn't on, you know, the next vest for this year, but I was just like, I got to talk about it anyway, because I had such a blast booting it up and just seeing how unique and special it was. I could

feel it the moment I stepped into it just how much energy went into it and it just kind of it reminded me the very first time I played like a hat in time if you've ever played that you just kind of booted up and you know instantly when you look at the characters what they're all about and it's it's it's really cool and it's really awesome awesome yeah no I had the same experience like ace was he was telling us like you guys got to check out this demo man it's really awesome so you know he gives me four million indie games to look at every freaking week so I'm always like all right, whatever. And so I'll look at them here and there.

But this one, the instant I clicked on and started to play, when your guy yelled at me because I skipped his dialogue, that sold me right there. I'm not even going to lie. Like, to have the thought to create something like that within the game is what, it was what, I'm like, okay, you know, the rest of this is going to be right up my alley. Because for somebody to take the time to think, like, yeah, maybe if I was like an mpc or a main character and somebody skipped my dialogue, I'd be pretty pissed too.

So, yeah, dude, we just, we, we love that. So we definitely, you know, put some time in on that demo and what you created and what we've seen so far was, was awesome. I never wanted to unpause the game when I paused it because the music was so good. I was just, like, man, it's so good. I don't want to stop. And then it got stuck in our heads. I love that people are loving the demo.

And I love that, like, the game is so far in development that I could also tell people that you haven't seen anything yet. Like, if you think it gets crazy, you don't even know. I got a little idea. Just a little. It gets weird. This game gets weird. I'm starting to think, hmm, maybe I should put like a parental guidance, like warning

before the game starts. It's not like inappropriate by any means, but it's just like, I don't know. It gets spooky. I'll tell you it gets spooky. All right. I love it. I love a good spooky game. Exactly.

So speaking of the music, you know, that he's, you know, that he mentioned there uh you know as as a musician and your background in music like um did that affect your you know approach to the game design and like how how did you maybe i want to put i really want to put this song in this area or or was there a different way that you kind of went about it like how did you approach that with integrating the music with like the game or the gameplay well i think as a solo developer i kind of have the benefit of just like you know if you're working on a team with someone and someone comes to the team with a piece of music you can't really like trash that person like you have to like respect like what they made but since I'm the only person working

on it I can be really hard on myself and be like yep you're like really just like demean myself and put myself down and it's and it's okay because it's just me um so like it really is about the iterative process iterative process can't speak um and you know I had to learn how to make music for games while making the game and it's a different process like making a pop song you know it's it's high intensity all the time but then you realize instantly in a game it's just like how distracting a high intensity song can be so it was really learning about how to like take things away and make something interesting that can loop for hours without getting bored of it like that was that was kind of a new thing for me so really it's just about having that back and forth

the looping I can't imagine the challenge for I couldn't yeah because when it's bad you notice And even just the idea like I have to listen to it all the time And I'm my harshest critic So the fact that I have to listen to the sound of my voice Like every character is voiced by me Mr. Sleeping Man's voiced by me And it's just like I'm I can feel my nasal cavity when I hear the sound of my voice

Because it's me So it's just like oh my gosh It's the worst But at the same time it's great So I'm glad that people are liking it so far I'm waiting for someone to trash me when is it going to happen when am I going to get like the horrible review of

someone just like hating my game it's just like I'm waiting for it but hasn't happened yet but I'm sure it will happen at launch I'm sure yeah I mean it's there's always going to be somebody out there you know you can't you can't please everybody I mean we have recently yeah we recently had a troll review

where it was just like 15 puke emojis we're like we're like all we're like a 4.9 on the pod and we're like all five stars and then we just get one like that and it just says terrible or something and we're like, okay, you know. I don't know, man. You just got to brush it off.

Yeah, people are going to have their pains. But we've loved what we've seen so far. Yeah, absolutely loved everything about it so far. So Mr. Sleeping Man's filled with like 2000s nostalgia, pop culture references and things like that. But do you have any personal media from there or influential games and aesthetics that really affected the game in your development?

I really love anything 2000s. Yeah. The game is a lovely. the thousands and like it's not just like people say oh 2000's nostalgia like in a game usually they're just drawing from like a game like banjo kazoo or ocarina time whatever but like i love everything nostalgia like i'm a huge lincoln park fan so like that type of music is influenced in the game like new metal or like pop punk from the 2000s like that people don't even realize it's just like in the game and it fits because it is oh it's 2000s aesthetic so really anything 2000s and i there

isn't there isn't a limit on that period nice yeah i can't i can't even imagine it the hard part for me would be not to cram like too much nostalgia in there and just make it over the top and like ridiculous which i mean it is kind of a ridiculous game it's in a good way yeah and it's like with nostalgia i try and be very like cautious with it because nostalgia for nostalgia's sake in a way is almost like predatory for the consumer yeah yeah and it's like um it's like um it's It's the opposite of that. If anything, I feel like the game, I'm almost like having a commentary about nostalgia. And some of the songs later in the game really talk about, like, why am I escaping?

Why do I need to use this form of meaning to escape from the past? And that becomes kind of an overarching story theme in the game. I'm super excited to see the story of the game. You have no idea. Wait, this game is a story? I thought I was just rocking out. No, no. Things happen.

Stealing donuts. If anything, there are things that in the demo that happen in the demo and you think is, oh, this is just a funny, crazy thing, but all of your actions in the demo have an effect on the rest of the game. Oh, right. Okay. So choices matter. Yeah. So, yeah.

It's a linear story. So, I mean, it's whatever. Yeah, yeah. Well, so within like creating the game, you know, some of the best ideas, and we know this from just a, brainstorming and coming up with things for the pot or other stuff, you know, sometimes mistakes come up with unexpected results, you know, was there any situations in here where you're like, oh, whoops, I messed that up, but you know what?

That kind of works, you know, was there like a happy accident that helped kind of shape the game for you? That's probably my entire life. Yeah, right? I feel like Mr. Sleepy Man as a character is the embodiment of that because I didn't intend to make him a video game character. I was just drawing a sleepy guy. I was practicing drawing because I knew I wanted to do game art.

And I was like, oh, Sleepy Man, oh, Mr. Sleepy Man, that sounds funny. And then it kind of just occurred to me. That would be a fun game idea. But then even the idea of him being this character who, you know, you're doing morally wrong things in the game. You're stealing a cash register. You're messing with people in the town. I didn't realize the comedic aspect of that, that, oh, Mr. Sleepy Man, because he's asleep, he doesn't have any moral accountability.

Like the player absolves him. That in itself is almost like a joke. And I'd say that is kind of like unexpected, you know, because I didn't, I didn't preconceive something like that. It kind of just fell into place. It's awesome. If there's something funny in the game, it just happened to be funny. Yeah.

That's the thing about comedy, too. I love comedy as an art form because, like, you can, you can tell when someone's trying to be funny. Yes. It's cringe. Yeah. That's, like, person that you hate. Like, stop trying to be funny.

It's either you're funny or not. People that are funny, they're either funny or they're not funny. Dude, you have those guys that whatever they say, they just crack you up and no matter, they just, the delivery and the way they do it, because they're not trying. They just are inherently funny and in the comedic timing and it's all there. And, you know, we found that it was, it was there in this game as well. So there is something to be said about not forcing it, you know. Yeah, yeah. And it's, I'm trying to make myself laugh at the end of the day.

You know, and it doesn't escape you. Like, you go and you read the descriptions of the objectives, and I'm putting jokes in there. And the best part for me is, like, you know, I'm the biggest fan of my humor because it's for me. So, like, I'll write a joke two years ago, and then I'll read the description of something while I'm coding. And it's like, oh, I completely forget about the joke. And it makes me laugh, which is kind of the idea. If you don't like your own cooking, then why are you cooking, you know? Yeah.

That's fair. That's great. Yeah, you plan back down the road. You're like, that was a good one. That was a good one. So with all this that you're creating, you know, like you said, you're waiting to get that kind of backlash or people reaching out to you, you know, I'm sure you've heard stuff with playtests and on Discord and people putting in input.

Everybody's got an opinion, it's like a belly button, you know, or something else. So how do you approach taking that on? You know, as a one-man dev team, like, how do you overcome that to doing too much to take away from what, you know, your world you've created, but also kind of cater towards what, you know, the people want. Yeah. You know, there's a famous Rick Rubin quote. It's like, you really, if you try and make something for someone else,

you're going to ultimately fail. That's, I'm paraphrasing that. But in a game, it's like you have to really balance that because at the end of the day, it is for someone else. It is like, it's like cooking. It is the same thing. It's like, you're not the one consuming it at the end. of the day. Um, but, you know, when someone, like, just pops into my discord and they have

like a thousand lines of feedback, you have to really take it as a grain of salt. I feel like the best feedback I get is from people who have been following the game and truly understand my vision of it. And like the feedback that they give, it's like someone that actually cares about the game rather than someone who's kind of just nitpicking and they think it should be something else. Like, that's subjective. Like, there's subjective feedback and objective feedback. Someone objectively sees where the game is going and can help steer in that direction, that's great. But if someone's just like, they don't even want that type of game, yet they're giving feedback because they saw some other game that did that. That's usually kind of how I

do. You kind of have to just filter through what's useful and what's extraneous. It's got to be like a filter. You got to be like, all right, you know, I got to. And it's, I'm sure it sucks to have to go through all that and kind of knock out the nonsense, you know, every time. but I mean it's just one of those things you just you'd have to do because otherwise it's just it's too much like I said everybody everybody's got a dang opinion on every little nook and cram oh well this is this jump was a little too off in my opinion and they're like there's 4,000 jumps like really this one this is the one you know exactly yeah and usually jump is too difficult yeah yeah get over it I don't think it's that difficult of a game to begin with like from a platforming perspective like I at one point in development I was trying to make it so like maybe you can beat the game without even pressing the jump bump that was too far I went too far but it's I mean yeah you really have to sort through it because at the end of the day you have to make what you want to make and I think maybe some people at least people who make do game development that's that's an artistic like confidence that takes years to develop I think I'm fortunate

that I kind of like I really like I really got my legs in like music and YouTube and I've been making stuff my entire life. Like, I made a YouTube channel when I was, like, 12, probably shown enough. That was a mistake. What were my parents doing? They probably should have been watching when I was doing, because then I had like, people criticizing me harshly. Yeah, yeah. There you go. As a kid. That, just the descriptive of that word, but, um, yeah, so that's kind of, I think I just have, I, I have a lot of experience going into game development. So I think people get into game development as like the first thing that they've tried to do. And I'm lucky that I have like music. What is great about music as an art form is that

rhythm goes into everything. Like having a rhythm for how long a cutscenes should be. Having a rhythm for even just a sequence, a platforming sequence, just that instinct I feel I carry over. I've got instincts from music that I've been carrying over into everything. That makes sense. Hey everybody, Ryan here. Rocket League players. I'm calling you out right now. If you've been grinding, ranked, and wondering why you're not climbing that ladder, it is time to get some actual answers. That is where Trophy.a.I comes in. Trophy gives you real-time coaching that reacts to your play style, not cookie cutter tips, not generic rotate better nonsense. It tells you what you need to fix right in the moment. You also get access to a massive library of lessons, training

complete with pro-level demos, and you can watch and copy instantly. If you want to hit those flippery sets, those air dribbles, those recovery mechanics, it's all in there. And if you want to make practice fun again, Trophy has mini-games that will help you build real muscle memory while actually enjoying the grind. During the matches, the in-game overlay calls out mistakes the second they happen, so you can correct them instead of repeating them. And after every game, you get a personalized breakdown showing exactly what you're

held you back and how to improve on the next match you'll improve faster you'll play with way more confidence and you'll finally understand why that save or that kickoff went wrong and how to fix it try it completely risk-free with a seven-day trial just go to trophy dot a i and use the code vgp at checkout again risk-free seven-day trial t r o p h i dot a i level up smarter with trophy I mean the game's narrative is very deeply entwined with its soundtrack I imagine so I'm kind of wondering how you approach the challenge of you know keeping that telling the story through both the visuals and the music if that's like hard or without dialogue yeah I think the the strength is that everything is coming from the same source you know if I'm writing a line

of dialogue if I'm writing lyric if I'm writing a piece of music It's all coming from my brain, and I have the same idea. And I think even when the game starts, I'm communicating so many things. When you go into that start menu, and you're in this empty room, and there's cereal on the ground. And it's like, there's all these broken TVs. I'm already telling the story there. You know, and it's like, there's a lot of foreshadowing, and there's a lot of, like, lore that I give into the game without saying anything. and really it's just like if you checked out every detail of the game

you would realize there's almost like a hidden story underneath what's going on which is fun like I love when games do that and it's like I didn't even have to think about doing it it's just like that's what I wanted to do as soon as I made a game I let me put all these secrets in there definitely Easter eggs everywhere I mean and that's cool too like with you know you know musicians they always have there's like the song and the song means this but there's There's almost like the song within the song. It's like that depth to it,

that secondary meaning and what it does to like resonate with people, you know, on that next level. Yeah, dual meanings are like, as a songwriter, I've been doing that forever. Like I recently went back and listened to a lot of old songs that I wrote. I listened to some stuff I made when I was 17.

I was like, this kid, this kid was on to something. I've just instinctually, just like I've always been writing music. So, you know, it's not something I think about. You know, I don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a song today. It's like it bleeds out of you.

You know? It's like, the drive to make art is like this internal drive. That's cool because that shows, like you said, it's not forced. This isn't something that you're doing just because you just, I'm going to create a game and make money. I'm going to do this because it's in me and I want it to come out. It's coming out already. I might as well, you know, channel it and create something out of it. So, like, with that, you know, trying to balance, like, that whole artistic vision that you have, you know, and you've created this, like, dreamlike crazy world, you know, how do you channel it in a way to make it resonate with, like, a broader audience, almost like music, where you can create something awesome that's just for you, but how do you do it to where you still appreciate what you.

you've made, but, you know, it's something that can, can be for a larger group. I'm not sure if I did that yet. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see if the broad, I don't know if a broader audience, we're like, um, it's something that once again, it's like I can't really be too conscious of. Yeah. You know, music. I think I'm, I'm attracted to like the pop music stuff. I'm, I'm attracted to the simple things, which essentially is like what most people are gonna gravitate towards it's like in music i remember when i was coming up as a musician and i remember being in high school and all the guys that played guitar they thought they were so cool and they were like talking about all the bands that they liked and i like lincoln park and

they're gonna make fun of me if i talk to say i like lincoln park because it's like 2008 and it's like the least cool thing to like because it's like culturally um and i just remember just like thinking like well people kind of miss the point sometimes because a musician will get really into a song because of a technical aspect like oh this guitar solo so fast or look how fast this drummer is playing but people don't think about that people that listen to music they just want to connect it's about the emotional connection what resonates with them as like a person like when you hear a song what why are you listening to it are you listening to it for a drum fill or are you listening to it because the person is saying

something that means something to you. And I think that's the core. And I go into game development with that perspective as well. That's dude, that's awesome. Because at the end of the day I mean, what do you play video games for? To have fun. To escape, to have fun, to enjoy. And like

you said with the music, it doesn't, I mean, I hear Freebird. I don't think of the lyrics. I just like think I want to run through a wall right now. You know, like, I'm like, Freebird, yeah. And I'm just like, It was a great example because, like, that is technically proficient, but he's emoting through the guitar playing. It's like, it's not playing fast for the sake of playing fast.

He's playing fast to communicate these ideas. Yeah. Which I feel like a lot of metal music with anything that's like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, you know, that stuff is just like, look how fast I can play mom. The who? Yeah. Oh, man. That's awesome. So what are some of the unique advantages and challenges of developing game completely by yourself and on your own?

Like, have they influenced the way that you creatively make decisions? Oh, yeah. I think just coding is so fun. I didn't realize how fun coding would be. Because it's just like problem solving at its, you grind it down to its basic principles. I didn't realize like that I would actually kind of be good at it. I mean, it's still up for debate if I'm good at coding, honestly. I think it is just like I'm good at criticizing myself in that way

because it's like I can look back at my past mistakes and like improve upon that. And game development, I feel like it is like almost like every person should try and make a game because you've learned so much about yourself and you see your mistakes in real time. If something doesn't work because of a lack of logic, that's so great for someone's development, you know? Yeah. I think there's a lot of,

there's a lot of boomers out there that can really benefit from that. That's for sure. I think maybe if you've got to run for president, maybe you should, maybe you should do some game development. Yeah, that. I think, I think you're right.

It could help anyone. I know. Yeah, right. Game Debt's for Pres. Yeah, why not? I know, back in the day, so I was, I grew up,

I'm a 90s kid, And so I grew up with Half-Life, Half-Life 2. So when Source came out and like Half-Life 2 and they had the game development stuff where you can make your own maps, I would sit in class and I would draw maps and I would make my vents in boxes and I'm like, oh, then guys could go around here and circle around. And then I would create it and none of it would work. None of it at all. And so like that's the thing is it's just trial and error, trying to figure out what does work,

what doesn't work, what ideas are completely ludicrous and what may have some legs. So, and that was just developing maps for like half-life and Counterstrike and stuff. So to create a whole game from scratch to actually code it and then still have to find those goods and bads, you know, there's something to be said from that. So that's, you know, good on you because that's, there's a lot. Like you said, man, you're going to learn so much from doing all that. I will say in 2025, it's the easiest it's ever been. I mean, I bet there's some, like, developers from the 90s and 2000s that are looking down on me saying, like, oh, man, he's got it so easy with you know, back in my day, you know. So it's, you know, it's a benefit of the times.

I think there's going to be more solo developers like me coming out and making it. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. It's easier. So now there's, I mean, just like with podcasts, I mean, there's four million podcasts. There's a million people that want to create video games. And there's a ton of them that have never even got close to the level you are already, you know, creating these games.

So it may be easier, but the pool is much deeper, you know, that you got to swim through to get to the top and kind of have that exposure, which you've done, you know, you've done pretty well so far, which, you know, the music, I think, is a big tie-in that, at least for us. For us, it definitely resonated. That's for sure. And so with that, like, as you're creating this, you know, like, how does that work with like the chopping board the chopping block like your prototype process you know

where do you bring things in and chop them off like okay that may not work you know how does that whole kind of system kind of flesh out well it makes you really honest with yourself because as an artist you have to kill your darlings as they say it's like yeah last last year there was an entire other like world in the game and i was just like it's got to die rest in peace I got to put them down. Dang. Yeah. Sorry, kids, we got to put them down.

Yep. You have to kind of have that mentality. It's like at any time, I love everything in this game, but you all could die. At any time, I could throw any of it out. And that's that that takes like a radical honesty because if you hold, if you hold everything that you've made too close, you, you become blind in a way. Yeah. You know? You might be the realest person I've ever talked to.

I'm like, you're so like, it's a mass. In sync with yourself. It's awesome because it means you're an honest developer. Like you know what doesn't work and that if maybe even if you put a lot of effort into it, if it's not working, it's, you just got to cut it. I mean, you have to. You know, there's, I like to see the personal growth in making things and therapy is great too. Everyone, go to therapy. Go to therapy as a preventative measure.

No, that's the thing. No one wants to go to therapy as a preventative measure. I'm going to tell you, go to therapy as a preventative measure. You're going to thank yourself in five years. I'll remember that before the five years, hopefully. So, like, looking beyond, you know, your initial release of the full game, what are your long-term goals for Mr. Sleeping Man? And do you, like, have any new features or expansions you might want to add if, you know,

takes off? If it takes off and I make a lot of money, I'm going to disappear. Dude, yeah, like I said, this is the coolest guy ever. Just disappear, go make some N-F-T's or something. Well, I think it's like the idea of like, I'm going all back to the music. I'm just going to talk about myself artistically in general. It's like, there's, there's a, even when I'm growing up, there's like, you know, it's also cultural where it's just like being, the idea of being famous.

Like, oh, everyone wants to be famous. Everyone's got the phone. And it's like, I don't think I ever want to be famous. I can get that. I get that. In like 2017, I started doing like these cover videos. like of singing songs and covering them and I was like running ads on Facebook for the songs and one of them kind of went viral and it got like a million views on Facebook in like the span of like

two days. Oh wow. And you think, wow, that's so cool. That must have been so great having all that attention. Well, then people started like changing their Facebook profile pictures to like my personal photos on my Facebook. Oh, no. And then they start messaging me and it's like, no.

And that's not even fame. That's barely anything. Yeah. So I don't, you don't want to be famous. you don't want everyone like if you looked up if you googled your name right now could you find your address i hope not like just right now i really hope not you probably could it's in the phone books you know so that that's the thing it's like i don't want like i'm actually like that's something i have to kind of think about is like if this game takes off i need to change my name my name it's

not like i'm even a studio name it says you start the game it says created by devon santi this is probably a bad idea i'm actually not smart. I'm technically smart but I'm actually stupid. You just you just got to go to straight just Mr. Sleepy Man is your just overall name. You'll be like being seen like you got nobody knows who you are just this solo Sleepy Man developer and it's like Sleepy Man productions. I can say whatever I want on the internet with no accountability because I'm Mr. Sleeping Man I'm asleep ha ha. I'm unaware. This is gold Jerry. It's just Oh, that's great.

So with speaking of Mr. Sleeping Man, like, working on this game, you know, how is this, you know, when you start from scratch and start from fresh like this, how is this push you to like evolve your skills as a programmer, as a musician and an artist? Like, what, I'm sure you've had a dip into a lot of wells to get the ability to create these things. You know, what has that kind of process been like for you? It just takes time. Yeah. You know, if someone's doing something with a goal in mind, like, I'm playing guitar to get girls. Like, that reads. And, like, if you don't get girls or, like, it doesn't work out, then you're not playing guitar anymore.

I guess you didn't really like playing guitar. I like playing guitar because I like to play guitar. So, like, I don't have any other motive other than the intrinsic value of doing the things. thing. So then just naturally you become better. Yes. That's fair. Yeah. No, that's fair. I mean, there's something to be said. And that's part of the honesty within the development and the creation, you know, with a true musician or an artist or the best are just obsessed with the craft. They love what they do. They do it because they love

it, not for any monetary value or fame or fortune or anything like that. Sure, a million bucks is a million bucks. And that's awesome. But yeah, like. Every human. It's all about the money. Actually, it is all about the money. If I don't make money, I'm going to die. It's all about the money. You will. You're not wrong.

You're not wrong. I like people to say, like, money doesn't buy happiness. And it's like, you know, the saying is like, have you ever seen somebody on a jet ski? Like, it looks pretty fun. Yeah, they're pretty fun. Money's pretty cool. Like, it does bring cool stuff. But there's something to be said about, about just the core nature of the art form and the development and

you do it because it's just it's your draw and your you know quote unquote calling that's what you're there for is to express this feeling or belief or or something that's inside you that you want everyone else to see so um i think you're doing a great job with with this game with expressing that you know that's i mean that's why i'm here i'm just here to shout to the rooftops how great indie games are and i don't care who tells me to shut up i'm going to keep talking about them indie games are they are they are there are future in my opinion yeah where triple a games are failing us, I think indie games with their passion and their actual desire to make a good game that people want to enjoy and play and reminds them of their past and their childhood,

it's going to come out on top in the end, in my opinion. Yeah, it's like, you just have to care. Exactly. All these AAA games, does anyone care? I'm sure there's some people that care, but the driving force is to make a product. You know, indie games are not a product. And I think, like, games in general, that is almost like. like a conflict, like, is this a product or is this an expression?

Exactly. Because in a ways, it is a product, but these things are almost like they combat each other. Like, I get people in my, in my Discord that they tell me about all these accessibility settings that I need in the game. And I'm just like, you know what? The number one accessibility setting is that you can actually download it and play it and it's done. Yeah.

Yeah, you're not wrong at all. I just make it baseline accessible to human beings. It works. That's the number of words. Yeah, the most accessible thing is that I made a game. The best ability is accessibility, right there. There you go. That's, that's, oh, man, that's great.

Yeah, there is. I know, I keep saying it, but there's just, just the indie games. And I've been turned on to them quite a bit with Ace. I'm doing the, we do an indie episode, and that's what this will be for. And I'm, I've always been like kind of a big AAA guy, but I've slowly been leaning towards these, these indies to, because you do you feel the core and the passion within them so um it's it's been cool to see the transformation just in within myself of how you can find a place you know within this whole realm of game development for these smaller studios or solo devs like yourself that

put in all this work yeah so it's maddening i mean you have to be a little i think i'm kind delusional as well. Oh, it's going to have to be a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. So living in the dream world. At least, you know, at least I'm honest about it. Yeah, exactly. I'm calling myself Mr. Sleeping Man.

I'm in the, I'm in the, my head is in the clouds, yeah. So based on your journey so far, what kind of advice would you give to any other solo developer or indie creator who's dreaming of combining their multiple, like, art forms and desires into a game? Go outside and talk to people. you'll find if you find three friends you'll feel satisfied

you don't need to do all this stuff you don't need to make a whole game run oh that's that's great that's completely fair go touch grass huh I think there would be like a 100%

completion objective in the game and it will say just like please go outside that's pretty great that would be pretty great see that's what I love why are you doing this wake up

if I don't have a support system, let me guide you towards one. Just have the best thing I can do for you. Just have like a therapist, like, hotline thing come up. They can click it. Yeah, really, better help. Allow your location. It better help to sponsor my game.

There you go. There you go. See, now we're, see this networking. We're just getting it in. Mr. Crabs. Mr. Craves of me. Yeah, yeah. Ha!

Awesome. Well, so that's kind of it for like the main stuff. So we wanted to go into a little bit of a kind of bonus round rapid fire stuff. So don't think too deep about it. Just, you know, head in the clouds as you were. And we're just going to do a little rapid fire questions here. And I think you've kind of already answered this one to be honest. You've got to have already answered this one.

Are you actually Mr. Sleepy Man yourself or do you run on caffeine in chaos? Oh, I am on caffeine. We're all addicted to caffeine. I would say everyone's addicted to caffeine. Yeah, really, really, you know. But, you know, I really, as I'm going to be 30 this year, and I'm really, I really benefit from eight hours of sleep every night. And I value it so much. And the older I get, if I get like six or five hours of sleep, it like, it sets me off now.

It's a different world, right? Yeah. Okay. What is your go-to gaming snack? Oh, man. I'm trying to lose weight, man. But this is going to trigger me. I love peanut butter pretzels

Oh Those are so good And you know I'm trying to be good I'm trying to like lose some weight And I went to like target the other day And they had Reese's peanut butter pretzels Oh man What are they doing man?

Oh my gosh Don't they know you're trying to lose weight Like that's why they put them out there The universe is speaking It's all about me All right Do you prefer playing games during the day Or are you like a night out

You like like gaming late at night? Yeah, it's nighttime I haven't been able to play games during the day in a long time because it's just like there's an anxiety of like you're wasting your time. You get something to do right now. Oh, that's fair. I get that completely. I guess that doesn't count. But it's like once the sun goes down, you kind of check out, you're like, yeah, it's it's game time. There's nothing else I could be doing right now. It's fine. Yeah, I'm too tired to work. And it's just like a turn my mind off. There you go. So do you have any games that you absolutely love, but are very, very, you know, terrible. This is most games for me. There's a lot. I love Hollow Night, but there's parts of that game that get, like, so frustrating. Yes. Celeste, I love Celeste, but I don't think I ever beat Celeste, because it just, the end of it,

just like, it gets so hard, and it starts to hurt your hands. Yeah. My hands start to hurt. I'm like, why are you doing this to me? Oh, yeah. When you have to start doing the wave dashing at, like, the last third there, you're just like, oh. And then you like that end of the night, your hands are like,

this exactly like you've got gamer game like stretch them out and you know I do a lot of stuff with my hands play guitar play piano I'm on the computer and it's just like give me a break here yeah yeah I have had enough all right if you could have any video game character as a roommate other than Mr. Sleepy Man who would it be and why oh I got to think is how would this benefit me how could I personally gain there you go I like the thought process already not Kirby because Kirby's just

gonna try and consume me that's the opposite what power would get you know maybe Mario because he's not really home all the time he's always got something to do he's probably got a lot of income coming in you know I'm thinking of more of a domestic partnership rather than a roommate I guess

the roommate is just I'm splitting rent I don't know that's that's fair I like I like the Mario all those gold coins coming home yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah. He's got a lot of money.

So, again, going back to kind of food, what's your ultimate comfort food when you're deep in game development? When I'm deep in game, I try and keep a lot of food away from the computer area because it's greasy hands and all that. But I would say, comfort food. Yeah, the peanut, I got a limit with those because it's like after two or three Reese's peanut butter cups, you start to really feel bad about yourself. A little bit of daubetus. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Maybe pizza.

I feel like I can eat a whole pizza. That's one of those just, boom, scarf down two slices and you're good to go. Not cereal then. I'm an Italian American from New Jersey, so I'm very, I'm a snob about my pizza. Oh, okay, speaking of pizza then. Oh, no. Pineapple on pizza, yes or no? I was against it for, like, just the idea of it.

Just, you know, and once I had it, I had a pineapple and pizza, and I was like, it's fine. I'm like, yeah, he knows. He's from Jersey. What are you talking about? And then, oh, man. I'll order it, but I'm never going to, like, I'm never going to, like, order it. But it's not a crime. It's still pizza. Yeah, see? You know? This is true. It's still pizza, but, man, it's just, this guy puts bananas and blueberries on his pizza. I did it once. It was for an experiment. It was for an experiment, all right? It was a experiment. Yeah. It was bananas and bacon. And then there was a blueberry ricotta pizza. There were two different pizzas. They were on the same pizza. Are you, like, a completionist? Do you like the 100% or platinum games? Or are you, like, more of a main story, just kind of get through, like, the depth of the story of a game? Yeah, like, a game has, like, side quests that were actually made by someone who cares.

It's not just, like, filling space. Of course. But I don't think, like, all these completionists, come on. I mean, I say it in the game. I make fun of that in the game. There's the whole line about the speedrunners. It's like, you're making a vaidavit, we shoot 10. I'm rich for nobody.

I'm taking a stab at the idea of just like, what are you doing? Yeah. Because then it's not the game. Like, especially when you're jumping like halfway through and doing glitches through around stuff. So I like the speed run stuff just to see if I could make the jumps. Yeah. But I am an action RPG. Like, I love stories.

If it's 60, 40 cutscenes, like that's my type of thing. I like to sit down and have an experience. So, yeah, I don't get the whole just blast through games and see how much you can speed run. But we won't keep you much longer. We're shortly running out of time here. We got one more for you. So in your opinion, which game as a musician has the best soundtrack and how is it influenced you in your creative work, you know, creating games? Ocarina time.

That's the right answer. Hands down. Fight me. Fight me. it's nostalgia but at the same time just how it works mechanically in the game it's just it's it's how interweaved the soundtrack is with the game it is the identity of the game the musical instrument is the game so what i think a lot of indie game developers maybe that's where they're faulting is that so like music is just kind of this last thing that i'm going to

throw on it and it's going to be something i just hire someone a contract make me some music and it's like no like these the levels and the games like I change my levels for the music and I changed my music for the game it's like this the enmeshment of these two things

it's you are you are making one thing at the end of the day that's and I think that's my perspective on everything is like I'm making one thing and all of these

all of these things the music the art the soundtrack the dialogue it's all in support of a central vision yeah i mean that makes sense that's that's what it is you like when you when you create something there's not it's not just one thing it's it's many things together um that all collaborate to create something great and so uh having the ability to have all those other kind of realms to

dive in from you know or pull from for you is cool with the music and and everything else so man that that's uh this has been great we like i said uh ace and i are pretty big fans already. We are stoked and we're excited to see all the stuff we don't know about yet. Oh, yeah. We'll see. Yeah, this is, it's been great to hear about the creative process, kind of all the challenges you had to overcome and everything to make what you've already created.

And we're excited to see what else, you know, comes to be. But is there a good way? Obviously, everyone listening, please, if you can, one of the biggest ways to help out these solo devs, especially for these indie guys, is to, wish list everybody needs to go in wish list this game check out the demo it's really really cool if anything just wish the list it because i said so but uh is there is there any other ways that uh people can come and and support you or or are uh things that that they should uh know i would

say i'm still are we calling an x i'm still calling a twitter yeah i think it's calling whatever you want we don't care i'm on twitter a twitter is probably the most active on social media wise. I'd say my discord, but I don't want any more people in there. Get out of here. Like old man. Get off my lawn. Yeah.

It's too close. YouTube. Subscribe to me on YouTube because I feel like YouTube is, in terms of longevity, it's probably where I'm going to last. And it's got all of my content. Just watch my YouTube videos because I've got stuff on there that I've forgotten about. Yeah. That's awesome.

Nice. Well, cool. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us. this was this was a blast it's uh it's it's it's rare to get somebody that is this involved in a solo dev game that has this much passion for it and is actually pretty good you know we play a lot of games and and not all of them are very fun um we we usually are pretty nice about it but this is all genuine coming from us you know you're real with us we're real with you so so uh we we love this one but um that's all for us today thank you so much for joining us and until next time

happy gaming peace out