Video Gamers Podcast - Mr. Sleepy Man - Indie Deep Dive with Devin Santi – Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Gaming hosts Ryan and Ace are joined by indie dev Devin Santi to dive into Mr. Sleepy Man! This unique and charming game delivers a dreamlike adventure filled with surprises. We chat with Devin about the title’s development, artistic vision, and what it takes to bring an indie video game to life. It’s a video game packed episode that’s a must-listen for indie gaming fans! All the gaming news you need, every week from the Video Gamers Podcast! Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q   Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by FX's Dying for Sex on Disney+. Based on the podcast of the same name, Dying for Sex tells the story of Molly, who is diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. Determined to feel everything she can before she can't feel anything, she decides to leave her unhappy marriage to explore her sexuality with some encouragement from her best friend Nicky. FX's Dying for Sex, streaming April 4th only on Disney+. Sign up now at DisneyPlus.com.

With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Hello fellow gamers. Welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. I am your host Ryan and joining us today, we have someone who may be still in Mr. Sleepy Man, but I think he's woken up from his vacation. It's Ace. Hey, I'm back man. I am definitely a little bit of Mr. Sleepy Man. I won't lie, but I am

here regardless. Sometimes it takes a little bit to get back in the flow, you know? It takes a bit to wake up and get back out there. And joining us today, a special guest, someone who is maybe a superior musician to all of us, a game designer, many, many, many talents that most of us wish we had. It is the one, the only Devin, the Mr. Sleepy Man himself. Yo, how we doing?

Hey, we're doing great. We are. We are so stoked to talk to you. We we cover this game in our indie episodes and we're pretty excited to have you here. You're the creative force behind Mr. Sleepy Man. You know, you're a solo developer. You're the creative force behind Mr. Sleepyman. You're a solo developer.

You got many, many hats that you're wearing right now. You're a musician, programmer, composer, game designer. Can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourselves? Share us with some of the background and where this all started for you. Yeah, I guess I'm a masochist because this is just like, it is no pun intended, a nightmare. But at the same time, it's like, it's half nightmare, half like creative, like revolution. Like it's so fun.

I love making games. It's like the best thing. It's been an awakening making this game. Oh, really? An awakening you say. Yeah, an awakening. Right, right. I'm already starting with the puns. But anyway, like I started as a musician,

like just making music and like funny YouTube videos. And I'll say the core of the creative force going into Mr. Sleepy Man was like, I was kind of like artistically split. Like I would make kind of like, I would make serious music and then I would make funny videos. And I really didn't know how to like blend the two worlds together.

And when I stumbled upon the creative idea of Mr. Sleepyman, the idea of just like he's this wacky, silly, sleepy guy. But there are nightmares and the nightmares are coming for him. It was like it just like clicked. I was like, OK, this is perfect, like artistic. I can do anything I want to do artistically and I wouldn't be like confined by You know, let's say like you whenever you do something creative It's like you're almost like sometimes you're putting yourself in a box

But because mr. Sleepyman is like this dream world aesthetic. There are no rules Yeah, and that kind of just allowed me to do whatever I wanted Yeah, that's cool. I love that we We recently, um, we covered a split fiction too recently. That is a game that dives into the mind of these characters to where it's taking all their ideas and, uh, you know, then kind of anything you can create is the limit, you know, basically, which is, which is such a cool idea and a premise. So with you, you know, um, with you, you're saying, creating this from the dreams and the minds and stuff,

as a gamer yourself, did you always kind of lend towards these types of games, platformer styles, or is this just like a nostalgia throwback type thing, or do you favor something else? And then this is just what kind of lended itself to what, you know, your artistic expression was with the songs that you created. Like, where did this game come from and like, what do you normally play? You know, I love 3D platformers. I love Mario 64. Heck yeah.

You know, I love, I'm a huge Nintendo nerd. I love Zelda. I love all that. Yeah, I love I'm a huge Nintendo nerd. I love Zelda. I love all that and you know, I I didn't necessarily intend to like just make like a cookie cutter like 3d platformer If anything, it was just like the character controller of a 3d platformer is so fun And I just like there's something just so expressive about it that it just that's just what I want it to do I didn't even, it wasn't even necessarily a conscious thought of like, Oh, what kind of game am I going to make? It's just like naturally that's what I gravitated towards.

And it was kind of a mistake because I learned quickly that the reason why there aren't that many 3D platformers is because they're incredibly difficult to develop. So really the first like two years, we're just trying to get a working character controller. Oh, wow. Banging my head against the wall. And the idea of just like, OK, and in 3D platformers, usually the gameplay loop is just like you're running around

and you're collecting things and you're jumping on stuff. And that's it. And I always like wonder, why is there never more to 3D platformer? I want to do more exploration, more interactivity. And that's because like it takes so long to make a 3D platform. So just like even the idea of doing this as a sole developer is like not a good idea. If anyone asked me for advice, I'd say, don't follow your dreams. Don't do it.

Don't. I was, I was lucky that there was a global pandemic, but if there wasn't a global pandemic, this game wouldn't exist. I got nothing but time. We're good to go. Seriously. Oh, that's awesome. The thing that we noticed, Ace and I both played a lot of your demo, and we fell in love, and it was not a normal 3D platformer.

So, Ace, do you got anything you want to talk about with your kind of gameplay on that demo? Because he's the one that brought it up to us. He's like, you guys got to check out this game. And he's a little younger than me. You know, so I grew up in that Nintendo, a platformer, Super Mario. Like that was the core of my childhood. So this resonated so deeply with me. So for someone a little younger, like ace, what was your, what was your gameplay?

Like, I'm not that much younger. Like, come on now. I've still played some 3D platformers. Oh, no, no, no. You're the expert for sure. But I'm just saying like, that was my core 90s childhood with the platformers on N64. So. Now for me, like I found this game when I was looking for Next Fest demos for us to review and it wasn't on the next Fest for this year, but I was just like, I gotta talk about it anyway, because I had such a blast booting it up and just seeing how unique and special it was. I could feel it the moment I stepped into it, just how much energy went into it. And it just kind of,

it reminded me of the very first time I played like a Hat in Time, if you've ever played that. You just kind of boot it up and you know instantly when you look at the characters, what they're all about. And it's, it's, it's really cool. It's really awesome. Awesome. Yeah. No, I, I had the same experience. Like ACE was, he was telling us like, you guys got to check out this demo, man. It's really awesome. So, you know, he gives me 4 million indie games to look at every freaking week. So I'm always like, all right, whatever. And,

and so I'll look at them here and there. And, and, but this one, the instant I clicked on and started to play When when your guy yelled at me because I skipped his dialogue That sold me right there I'm not even gonna lie like to have the thought to create something like that within the game is What it was what I'm like, okay You know the rest of this is gonna be right up alley. Cause for somebody to take the time to think like, yeah, maybe if I was like an NPC or a main character and somebody skipped my

dialogue, I'd be pretty pissed too. So yeah, dude, we just, we, we love that. So we definitely, you know, put some time in on that demo and what you created and what we've seen so far was, was awesome. I never wanted to unpause the game when I paused it because the music was so Like man, it's so good. I don't want to stop and then it got stuck in our hands I love that people are loving the demo and I love that like the game is so far in development that I could also tell People that you haven't seen anything yet. Like I think it gets crazy. You don't even know

think it gets crazy, you don't even know. Oh, I got a little idea. Right. Just a little. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, maybe you got a little. This game gets weird. I'm starting to think, hmm, maybe I should put like a parental guidance like warning before the game starts.

Cause it's not like, it's not inappropriate by any means, but it's just like, I don't know, this, this, it gets spooky. I'll tell you, it gets spooky. All right. I love it. I love a good spooky game. Exactly. So, so speaking of the music, you know, that he. Oh, I love it. I love a good spooky game. Exactly. So, so speaking of the music, um, you know, that he mentioned there, uh, you

know, as, as a musician and your background in music, like, um, did that affect your, you know, approach to the game design and like, how, how did you maybe, I want to put, I really want to put this song in this area or, or was there a different way that you kind of went About it like how did you approach that with integrating the music with like the game or the gameplay? I think as a solo developer. I kind of have the benefit of Just like you know if you're working on a team with someone and someone comes to the team with a piece of music You can't really like trash that person like you have to like respect like what they made

But since I'm the only person working on it I can be really hard on myself and be like, yep You're like really just like demean myself and put myself down and it's and it's okay because it's just me So like it really is about the editor process iterative process And you know, I had to learn how to make music for games while making the game And it's a different process like making a pop song You know it's it's high intensity all the time, but then you realize instantly in a game It's just like how distracting a high intensity song can be yeah So it was really learning about how to like take things away and make something interesting that can loop for hours

Without getting bored of it. Like that was, that was kind of a new thing for me. So really it's just about having that back and forth. The looping I can't imagine the challenge for. I couldn't. Yeah. Cause when it's bad you notice. And even just the idea like I have to listen to it all the time. I'm my harshest critic. So the fact that I have to listen to the sound of my voice, like every

character's voice by me, Mr. Sleepyman's voice by me. And it's just like, I'm, I can feel my nasal cavity when I hear the sound of my voice, because it's me. So it's just like, oh my gosh, it's the worst. Um, but at the same time, it's great. So I'm glad that people are liking it so far. I'm waiting for someone to trash me.

When is it gonna happen when am I gonna get like the horrible review of someone just like hating my game it's just like I'm waiting for it but hasn't happened yet but I'm sure it will happen at launch. Yeah I mean there's always gonna be somebody out there you know you can't you can't please everybody I mean we have recently yeah we recently had a troll review where it was just like 15 puke emojis. We're like, we're like all, we're like a 4.9 on the pod and we're like all five stars. And then we just get one like that and it just says terrible or something.

And we're like, okay, you know, I don't know, man, you just gotta brush it off. Yeah. People are going to have their pains, but we've, we've loved what we've seen so far. Yeah. Absolutely loved everything about it so far. So Mr. Sleepyman's filled with like 2000s nostalgia, pop culture references and things like that, but do you have like any personal media from there or influential games and aesthetics that really affected the game and your

development? Um, I really love anything. 2000s is a love letter to the thousands. And like, it's not just like people say, Oh anything 2000s And like it's not just like people say oh 2000s nostalgia like in a game usually They're just drawing from like a game like banjo-kazooie or ocarina time whatever But like I love everything nostalgia like I'm a huge Lincoln Park fan Oh, yeah, that type of music is influenced in the game like new metal or like pop punk from the 2000s, like that people don't even realize it's just like in the game and it fits because it is, oh, it's 2000s aesthetic.

So really anything 2000s and I there isn't there isn't a limit on that period. Nice. Yeah, I can't I can't I can't even imagine it. The hard part for me would be not to cram like too much nostalgia in there and just make it over the top and like Ridiculous, which I mean it is kind of a ridiculous In a good way. Yeah, and it's like with nostalgia. I try and be very like cautious with it because nostalgia for nostalgia sake in a way is almost like predatory for the yeah, yeah, and it's like It's the opposite of that.

If anything, I feel like the game, I'm almost like having a commentary about nostalgia. And some of the songs later in the game really talk about like, why am I escaping? Why do I need to use this form of meaning to escape from the past? And that becomes kind of an overarching story theme in the game.

I'm super excited to see the story of the game. You have no idea. Wait, this game is a story. I thought I was just rocking out. No, no. Things happen. Stealing, stealing doughnuts. Yeah, yeah. If anything, there are things that in the demo that happen in the demo.

And you think, oh, this is just a funny, crazy thing. But all of your actions in the demo have an effect on the rest of the game. Oh, really? Okay. So choices matter. Yeah, so yeah, it's a linear story, so I mean, it's whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, so within creating the game, some of the best ideas, and we know this from just brainstorming and coming up with things for the pod or other stuff, you know, sometimes mistakes come up with unexpected results. You know, was there any situations in here where you're like, oh, whoops, I messed that up. But you know what? That kind of works. You know, was there like a happy accident that helped kind of shape the game for you? That's probably my entire life.

Yeah, right. the game for you? That's probably my entire life. Yeah, right? I feel like Mr. Sleepyman as a character is the embodiment of that because I didn't intend to make him a video game character. I was just drawing a sleepy guy. I was practicing drawing because I knew I wanted to do game art. And I was like, oh, sleepy, sleepy man.

Ah, Mr. Sleepyman, that sounds funny. And then it kind of just occurred to me that it'd be a fun game idea. But then even the idea of him being this character who, you know, you're doing morally wrong things in the game, you're stealing a cash register, you're messing with people in the town. I didn't realize the comedic aspect of that, that, oh, Mr. Sleeping Man, because he's asleep, he doesn't have any moral accountability. Like, the player absolves him. That in itself is is almost like a joke and I'd say that is kind of like Unexpected, you know because I didn't I didn't preconceive something like that. It kind of just things kind of just fell into place The game if there's something funny in the game it just happened to be funny

Yeah, that's the thing about comedy, too I love comedy as an art form because like you can you can someone's trying to be funny. It's cringe. That's like person that you hate. Stop trying to be funny. It's either you're funny or not. People that are funny, they're either funny or they're not funny. You have those guys that whatever they say, they just crack you up and no matter, they just the delivery and the way they do it because they're not trying they just are inherently funny and in the comedic timing and it's all there and you know we we found that it was it was there in this game as well so it there's something to be said about not forcing it you know yeah yeah and it's i'm trying to make myself laugh at the end of the day

you know and it doesn't escape you like you go and you read the descriptions of the objectives and i'm putting jokes in there and the best part for me is Like you go and you read the descriptions of the objectives and I'm putting jokes in there and the best part for me is like, you know, I'm the biggest fan of my humor because it's for me. So like I'll write a joke two years ago and then I'll read the description of something while I'm coding. And it's like, Oh, I completely forget about the joke. And it makes me laugh, which is, which is kind of the idea.

If you're, if you can't, if you don't like your own cooking, then why are you cooking, you know? Yeah, that's fair. That's great. Yeah. You playing back down the road and you're, if you can't, if you don't like your own cooking, then why are you cooking? Yeah, that's fair. That's great. Yeah. You playing back down the road and you're like, that was a good one. That was a good one. So, so with all this that you're creating, you know, like you said, you're,

you're waiting to get that kind of, um, backlash or people reaching out to you. You know, I'm sure you've heard stuff and, uh, with, with play tests and, and on discord and people putting in input, everybody's got an opinion. It's like a belly button, you know, or, or something else. Um, so how do you, how do you approach taking that on, you know, as a one man dev team, like how do you overcome that to doing too much to take away from what, you know, your world you've created, but also kind of cater towards what, you know, your world you've created, but also kind of cater towards what, you know, the people want.

Yeah. You know, there's a famous Rick Rubin quote. It's like you really, if you try and make something for someone else, you're going to ultimately fail. That's how I'm paraphrasing that. But in a game, it's like you have to really balance that because at the end of the day it is for someone else It is like it's like cooking it is the same thing. It's like you're not the one consuming it at the end of the day But you know when someone like just pops into my discord and they have like a thousand lines of feedback You have to really take it as a grain of salt I feel like the best feedback I get is from people who have been following the game and truly understand my vision of it And like the feedback that they give it's like someone that actually cares about the game

Rather than someone who's kind of just nitpicking and they think it should be something else like that's subjective like there's subjective feedback and objective feedback Someone objectively sees where the game is going and can help steer in that direction, that's great. But if someone's just like, they don't even want that type of game, yet they're giving feedback because they saw some other game that did that, that's usually kind of how I... Oh yeah. You kind of have to just filter through what's useful and what's extraneous. It's got to be like a filter. You got to be like, all right, you know, I got to... And it's, I'm sure it sucks to have to go through all that and kind of knock out the nonsense, you know, every time. But I mean, it's it's I'm sure it sucks to have to to go through all that and and and kind of knock out the nonsense You know every time but I mean it's just one of those things you just you have to do because otherwise

It's just it's too much. Like I said, everybody Everybody's got a dang opinion on every little nook and cranny. Oh, well, this is this jump was a little too off in my opinion You know, like there's four thousand000 jumps like really this one this is the one you know exactly yeah and usually it's too difficult yeah yeah get over it I don't think it's that difficult of a game to begin with like from a platforming perspective like I at one point in development I was trying to make it so like maybe you can beat the game without even pressing the jump button that was too far I went too far but it's I mean yeah you really have to sort

through it because at the end of the day you have to make what you want to make I think maybe some people at least people who make do game development That's that's an artistic like confidence that takes years to develop. I think I'm fortunate that I kind of like I really like I Really got my legs in like music and YouTube and I I've been making stuff my entire life like I made a YouTube channel when I was like 12 probably sure enough they probably should have been watching when I was doing because then I had like people really criticizing me harshly yeah as a

kid but they're just the descriptive of that word. But yeah, so that's kind of, I think I just have, I have a lot of experience going into game development. So I think people get into game development as like the first thing that they've tried to do. And I'm lucky that I have like music. What is great about music as an art form is that rhythm goes into everything like having a rhythm for how long a cutscene should be having a rhythm for even just

a sequence a platforming sequence just that instinct I feel I carry over like I've got instincts for music that I've been carrying over into everything that makes sense this episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy. Ever captured a great night video only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker? With audio erase on the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions. And that's not all. New Galaxy AI features like NowBrief will give you personalized insights based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what. Buy the Samsung Galaxy

S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. Yeah. I mean, the game's narrative is very deeply entwined with its soundtrack, I imagine. So I'm kind of wondering how you approach the challenge of keeping that, telling the story through both the visuals and the music, if that's like hard or without dialogue. Yeah. I think the strength is that everything is coming from the same source. If I'm writing a line of dialogue, if I'm writing lyric, if I'm writing a piece of music, it's all coming from my brain and I have the same idea. I'm writing a piece of music.

It's all coming from my brain and I have the same idea. And I think even when the game starts, I'm communicating so many things. When you go into that start menu and you're in this empty room and there's cereal on the ground and it's like all these broken TVs, I'm, I'm already telling the story there, you know? And it's like, there's a lot of foreshadowing and there's a lot of like lore that I give into the game without saying anything. And really, it's just like if you checked out every detail of the game, you would realize there's almost like a hidden story underneath what's going on, which is fun. Like I love when games do that. And it's like, I didn't even have to think

about doing it. It's just like, that's what I wanted to do as soon as I made a game. Let me put all these secrets in there. Definitely Easter eggs everywhere. Yeah. Let's just go. I mean, and that's cool too, like with, um, you know, you know, musicians, they always have, there's like the song and the song means this, but there's almost like the song within the song. It's like that, that depth to it, that, that secondary meaning and what it does to like resonate with

people, you know, on that next level. Yeah, dual meanings are like, as a songwriter, I've been doing that forever. Like I recently went back and listened to a lot of old songs that I wrote. I listened to some stuff I made when I was 17. I was like, this kid, this kid was onto something. Instinctually, it's like I've always been writing music. So, you kid, this kid was onto something. Like I've just instinctually, it's like, I've always been writing music. So, you know, it, it's not something I think about, you know, I don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a song today. It's like, it, it bleeds out of you. You know, it's like, the drive to make art is like this internal drive.

That's, that's cool. Cause that, that shows, um, like you said, it's not forced. This isn't something that, um, that you're doing just cause you just, I'm going to create a game and make money. I'm going to do this because it's in me and I want it to come out. It's coming out already. I might as well, you know, channel it and create something out of it. So like with that, you know, trying to balance like that whole artistic vision

that you have, you know, and you've created this like dream like crazy world, you know, how do you channel it in a way to make it resonate with like a broader audience, almost like music where you can create something awesome that's just for you. But how do you do it to where you still appreciate what you've made, but you know, it's something that can, can be for a larger group. I'm not sure if I did that yet. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see if the broader audience will like, um, it's something that once again, it's like, I can't really be too conscious of, you know, music. I think I I'm attracted to like the pop music stuff.

I'm I'm attracted to the simple things, which essentially is like what most people are going to gravitate towards. And it's like in music. I remember when I was coming up as a musician and I remember being in high school and all the all the guys that play guitar, they thought they were so cool. And they were like talking about all the bands that they liked. And I like Linkin Park.

And they're going to make fun of me if I talk, say I like Linkin Park, because it's like 2008 and it's like the least cool thing to like, because it's like culturally. And I just remember just like thinking, like, well, people kind of miss the point sometimes, because a musician will get really into a song because of a technical aspect like, oh, this guitar solo so fast, or look how fast this drummer is playing. But people don't think about that. People that listen to music, they just want to connect. It's about the emotional connection. What resonates with them as like a person? Like when you hear a song, why are you listening to it? Are you listening to it for a drum fill?

Are you listening to it because the person is saying something that means something to you? And I think that's the core. And I go into game development with that perspective as well. That's, dude, that's awesome. Cause at the end of the day, I mean, what do you, what do you play video games for? To have fun, to escape, to have fun, to enjoy.

And like, like you said, with the music, it doesn't, I mean, I hear Freebird. I don't, I mean, I don't think of the lyrics. I just like think I want to run through a wall right now. You know, like, I'm like, free bird. Yeah. Freebird is like, is a great example. Cause like that is technically proficient, but he's emoting through the guitar playing. It's like, it's not

Playing fast for the sake of playing fast. He's playing fast to communicate these ideas Yeah, I feel like a lot of metal music with anything that's like do do do do do do do do do you know that stuff? It's just like look how fast I could play mom Oh man. That's awesome. So, what are some of the unique advantages and challenges of developing a game completely by yourself and on your own? Like have they introduced, have they influenced the way that you creatively make decisions? Oh yeah, I think just coding is so fun.

I didn't realize how fun coding would be. It's just like problem solving at its, you grind it down to its basic principles. I didn't realize like that I would actually kind of be good at it. I mean, it's still up for debate if I'm good at coding, honestly. I think it is just like I'm good at criticizing myself in that way because it's like I can look back at my past mistakes and like improve upon that. And game development, I feel like it is like almost like every person should try and make a game because you've learned so much about yourself and you see your mistakes in real time. If something doesn't work because of a lack of logic, That's so great for someone's development. Yeah.

I think there's a lot of boomers out there that can really benefit from that. Yeah. That's for sure. I think maybe if you've got to run for president, maybe you should do some game development. Yeah. I think you're right. It could help anyone. Game developers for president, huh? Yeah. Game devs for. I know present, huh? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Game death for press. I know I back in, back in the day. Um, so I, I was, I grew up, I'm a nineties kid and, uh, so I grew up with half life,

half like two. So when, when source came out and like, um, half life too, and they had the game development stuff where you can make your own maps, I would sit in class and I would draw maps and I would make my vents and boxes. And I'm like, Oh, then guys could go around here and, and, and circle around. And then I would create it and none of it would work. None of it at all. And so like, that's the thing is it's just trial and error, trying to figure

out what, what does work, what doesn't work, what ideas are completely ludicrous and, and what may have some legs. So, and that was just developing maps for like Half-Life and Counter-Strike and stuff. So, so to create a whole game from scratch to, to actually code it and then still have to find those, um, those goods and bads, you know, there's, there's something to be said from that. So that's, you know, good on you. Cause that's, there's, there's a lot of you. Like you said, man, you, you're going to learn so much from, from doing all that. I will say in 2025, it's the easiest it's ever been. I mean, I bet there's some like developers from the nineties and

two thousands that are looking down on me saying like, Oh man, he's got it so easy back in my day, you know? So I'm it's, you know, it's a benefit of the times. I think there's going to be more solo developers like me coming out and making Well, that's the thing. Yeah, it's easier. So now there's, I mean, just like with podcasts, I mean, there's 4 million podcasts. There's a million people that want to create video games.

And there's a ton of them that have never even got close to the level you are already, you know, creating these games. So it may be easier, but the, the pool is much deeper now that you got to swim through to get to the top and kind of have that exposure, which you've done, you know, you've done pretty well so far, which, you know, the music I think is a big tie in that, at least for us, for us to definitely resonated. That's for sure. And so, and so with that, like as you're, as you're creating this, you know, like

how does that work with like the chopping board, the chopping block, like your prototype process, you know, where do you bring things in and chop them off? Like, okay, that may not work. You know, how does that whole kind of system kind of flesh out? Well, it makes you really honest with yourself because as an artist, you have to kill your darlings, as they say. It's like, yeah, last year there was an entire other like world in the game. And I was just like, it's got to die.

Rest in peace. You got to put them down. Dang. Yeah. Sorry kids, we got to put them down. You have to kind of have that mentality. It's like at any time. I love everything in this game, but you all could die at any time. I throw any of it out.

And that's that that takes like a radical honesty, because if you hold if you hold everything that you've made too close, you you become blind in a way. Yeah. You know, you might be the realest person I've ever talked blind in a way. You might be the realest person I've ever talked to in my life. It's a mess. In sync with yourself. It's awesome because it means you're an honest developer. Like you, you know, what doesn't work. And that if, maybe even if you put a lot of effort into it, if it's not working, it's,

you just gotta cut it. You have to. You know, there's, you have to. I like to see the personal growth in making things and therapy is great too. Everyone go to therapy. Go to therapy as a preventative measure. No, that's the thing. No one wants to go to therapy as a preventative measure. I'm gonna tell you, go to therapy as a preventative measure.

You're gonna thank yourself in five years. I'll remember that before the five years, hopefully. Yeah. So like looking beyond, you know, your initial release of the full game, what are your long-term goals for Mr. Sleeping Man? And do you like have any new features or expansions you might wanna add if, you know, it takes off?

If it takes off and I make a lot of money, I'm gonna to disappear. Dude, like I said, this is the coolest guy ever. Just disappear and go make some NFTs or something. I think it's like the idea of like, I'm going all back to the music. I'm just going to talk about myself artistically in general. It's like, there's a, even when I'm growing up, it's also cultural where it's just like being the idea of being famous. Like, oh, everyone wants to be famous. Everyone's got the phone. And it it's like I don't think I ever want to be famous like I Can get I get that in like 2017

I started doing like these cover videos like of singing songs and covering them and I was like running ads on Facebook for the songs and one of them kind of went viral and it got like a million views On Facebook and like the span of like two days. And you think, wow, that's so cool. That must have been so great having all that attention. Well, then people started like changing their Facebook profile pictures to like my personal photos on my Facebook. And then they start messaging me.

And it's like, no, and that's not even fame. That's barely anything. So you don't want to be famous. You don't want everyone like if you looked up, if you Googled your name right now, could you find your address? I hope not. Like just right now. I really hope. I probably could.

It's in the phone books, you know. So that's the thing. It's like, I don't want like I'm actually like that's something I have to kind of think about is like, if this game takes off, I need to change my name. I really don't. My name, it's not like I'm even like, that's something I have to kind of think about is like, if this game takes off, I need to change my name. My name, it's not like I'm even a studio name. It says, you start the game. It says created by Devin Santy.

This is probably a bad idea. I'm actually not smart. I'm technically smart, but I'm actually stupid. You just, you just gotta go to straight. Just Mr. Sleepy man is your just overall name. You'll be like, big scene. Oh, there you go.

Like you got, nobody knows who you are. Just the Sleepy Man. You're just this solo Sleepy Man developer and it's like Sleepy Man productions, you know. I can say whatever I want on the internet with no accountability because I'm Mr. Sleepy Man, I'm asleep, ha ha. Yes.

I'm unaware. This is gold, Jerry. It's just. Oh, that's great. Um, so, so with speaking of Mr. Sleepy Man, like, like working on this game, you know, how is this, you know, when you, when you start from scratch and start from fresh like this, how is this push you to like evolve your skills as a programmer, as a musician and an artist.

Like what, I'm sure you've had a dip into a lot of wells to, to get the ability to create these things. You know, what, what does that kind of process been like for you? It just takes time. Yeah. You know, if someone's doing something with an, a goal in mind, like I'm playing guitar to get girls like that reads and like if you don't get girls or like it doesn't work out then you're not

playing guitar anymore I guess you didn't really like playing guitar I like playing guitar because I like to play guitar so like I don't have any other motive other than the intrinsic value of doing the thing so that then just naturally you become better yes that's fair's fair. Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, there's something to be said and that's part of the honesty within the development and in the creation, you know, with a true musician or an artist or the best are just obsessed with the craft. They love what they do. They do it because they love it, not for any monetary value or fame or fortune or anything like that. Sure. A million bucks is a million bucks and that's awesome.

You don't want to be rich. Come on, let's be real. Every human being wants about the money. Yeah, I always love the- Actually, it is all about the money. If I don't make money, I'm going to die. Oh, yeah. It's all about the money. You're not wrong. You will. You're not wrong. You're correct.

It's like, I like it when people say like, money doesn't buy happiness. And it's like, you know, the saying is like, have you ever seen somebody on a jet ski? Like, it looks pretty fun. Yeah, pretty happy. Pretty happy. Money's pretty cool. Like it does bring cool stuff, but there's something to be said about just the core nature of the art form and the development. And you do it because it's just it's your draw and your you know quote-unquote calling that's what you're there for is to express this feeling or belief or something that's inside you that you want everyone else to see so um i think you're doing a great job with with this game with expressing that you know i mean that's why i'm here i'm just here to shout

to the rooftops how great indie games are, and I don't care who tells me to shut up. I'm going to keep talking about them. Indie games are the best. They are. They are. They're our future, in my opinion. Where AAA games are failing us, I think indie games with their passion and their actual desire to make a good game that people want to enjoy and play and reminds them of their past and their childhood, it's going to come out on top in the end, in my opinion. Yeah, it's like, you just have to care. Exactly.

All these AAA games, does anyone care? I'm sure there's some people that care, but the driving force is to make a product. Indie games are not a product. And I think games in general, that is almost like a conflict. Is this a product or is this an expression? Exactly.

Cause in a way it is a product, but these things are almost like they combat each other. Like I get people in my, um, in my discord that they tell me about all these accessibility settings that I need in the game. And I'm just like, you know what? The number one accessibility setting is that you can actually download it and play it and it's done. Like, yeah, you're not wrong at all. How about I just make it baseline accessible to human beings.

It works. That's the number one. Yeah. The most accessible thing is that I made a game. The best ability is accessibility right there. There you go. That's, that's, oh man, that's great. Yeah.

There, there is, I know I keep saying it but there's Just just the indie games and I've been turned on to them quite a bit with ace I'm doing the we do an indie episode and that's what this will be for and I'm I've always been like kind of a big triple a guy, but I've slowly been leaning towards these these indies to Because you do you feel the core and the passion within them. So it's been cool to see the transformation just within myself of how you can find a place within this whole realm of game development for these smaller studios or solo devs like

yourself that put in all this work. Yeah. So it's maddening. I mean, you have to be a little, I think I'm kind of delusional as well. like yourself that put in all this work. Yeah. So- It's maddening. I mean, you have to be a little, I think I'm kind of delusional as well. It's just like- Oh, it's good to have a little bit.

It's gotta be a little bit. Yeah, it was a little bit. Yeah, you know. So living in the dream world, at least, you know what, at least I'm honest about it. Yeah. Exactly. I'm calling myself Mr. Sleepy Man.

I'm in the, my head is in the clouds, yeah. So based on your journey so far, what kind of advice would you give to any other solo developer or indie creator who's dreaming of combining their multiple like art forms and desires into a game? Go outside and talk to people. You'll find if you find three friends, you'll feel satisfied. You don't need to do all this stuff you need to make a whole game oh that's completely fair go touch grass huh I think there would be

like a hundred percent completion objective in the game and it will say just like please go outside that's pretty great that would be pretty great see that's why are you doing this? Wake up. If I, if you don't have a support system, let me guide you towards one. Just have like a therapist, like hotline thing come up. They can click it. Is it a link to better help? Yeah, really better help.

Allow your location and then boom. There you go. There you go. See now we're, see this networking. We're just getting it in. Oh, Mr. Krabs, Mr. Krabs and me. Yeah, yeah. Ha! Awesome. Well, uh, so that's kind of it for like the main stuff.

So we wanted to go into a little bit of a kind of bonus round rapid fire stuff. So don't think too deep about it. Just, uh, you know, head in the clouds as you were. And we're just going to do a little rapid fire stuff. So, um, don't think too deep about it. Just, uh, you know, head in the clouds as you were. And we're just going to do a little rapid fire questions here. So, and I think you've kind of already answered this one. Are you actually Mr. Sleepy Man yourself or do you run on caffeine and chaos?

Oh, I am on caffeine. I need, we're, we're all addicted to caffeine. I would say everyone's addicted to caffeine. Yeah, really, really, you know. But you know, I really as I'm going to be 30 this year, and I'm really, I really benefit from eight hours of sleep every night. And I value it so much. And the older I get, if I get like six or five hours of sleep, it like it sets me off. It's a different world, right?

Yeah. Okay, what is your go-to gaming snack? Oh man, I'm trying to lose weight, man, but this is gonna trigger me. Yeah, I love peanut butter pretzels. Oh, those are so good. And you know, I'm trying to be good, and I'm trying to lose some weight,

and I went to Target the other day, and they had Reese's peanut butter pretzels Universal speak it's all about me All right, do you prefer playing games during the day or are you like a night out you like like gaming late at night Yes, it's night time like yeah I haven't been able to play games during the day in a long time because it's just like there's an anxiety of like you're wasting your time you got something to do right now. Oh that's fair. Although I play mystery sleeper man during the day I guess that doesn't count but Yeah it's like once the sun goes down you kind of check out you're like yeah it's it's game time. There's nothing else I could be doing right now it's's fine. Yeah, I'm too tired to work.

And it's just like, yeah, turn my mind off. There you go. So do you have any games that you absolutely love, but are very, very terrible at? This is most games for me. There's a lot. I love Hollow Knight, but there's parts of that game that get so frustrating. Oh, yes. At how hard. Celeste. I love Hollow Knight, but there's parts of that game that get like so frustrating.

Oh, yes. How hard, Celeste. I love Celeste, but I don't think I ever beat Celeste because it just, the end of it just like it gets so hard and it starts to hurt your hands. Yeah. My hands start to hurt. I'm like, why are you doing this to me? Oh yeah.

When you have to start doing the wave dashing at like the last third there, you're just like, oh. And then you like that, and then at night, your hands are like this. Exactly. I don't really. You got gamer grip. You gotta like stretch them out. Oh my gosh, you gotta think. And you know what? Yep, there it is.

I do a lot of stuff with my hands. I play guitar, I play piano, I'm on the computer, and it's just like, give me a break here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had enough. All right, if you could have any video game character as a roommate other than mr. Sleepy man who would it be and why I?

Gotta think is how would this benefit me how how could I personally? Gain there you go. I like it. I like stop process already not Kirby because Kirby's just gonna try and consume me Yeah, that's the opposite what power you know maybe Mario cuz he's not really home all the time He's always got something to do. He's probably got a lot of income coming in You know I was going to be more of a domestic partnership rather than a roommate I guess the roommate is just I'm splitting a rent That's that's fair I like I like the Mario all those gold coins coming home I like the Mario, all those gold coins coming home. Yeah, yeah, why not?

Yeah. He's got a lot of money. So again, going back to kind of food, what's your ultimate comfort food when you're deep in game development? When I'm deep in game, I try and keep a lot of food away from the computer area, because it's greasy hands and all that,

but I would say comfort food. Peanut butter Reese's cups. Yeah, the peanut, I got a limit with those, because it's like after two or three Reese's peanut butter cups, you start to really feel bad about yourself. A little bit of diabetes. Yeah.

A little bit, really. Maybe pizza. I feel like I can eat a whole pizza. That's one of those just, boom, scarf down two slices and you're good to go. Not cereal then. I'm an Italian American from New Jersey, so I'm very, I'm a snob about my pizza.

All right. Okay, speaking of pizza then. Oh no. Pineapple on pizza, yes or no? I was against it for like just the idea of it. Just, you know, and once I had it, I had a pineapple on pizza and I was like, it's fine. Yeah!

Oh no! That's how I suck it, Ryan. You had it at first, I'm like, and I was like, it's fine. Yeah. You had me at first I'm like, yeah, he knows he's from Jersey. What are you talking about? And then, oh man. I'll order it, but I'm never going to, like, I'm never going to like order it. But it's not a crime. It's still, it's still pizza. Yeah. See, you know, this is true. It's still pizza, but man, it's just, and this guy puts bananas and blueberries on his pizza. It was for an experiment. All right, it was a experiment. Yeah, it was bananas and bacon and then there was a blueberry ricotta pizza

There were two different pizzas. They were all the same pizza Are you like a completionist you liked a hundred percent or platinum games or are you like more of a main story? Just kind of get through like the depth of the story of her game Yeah, if like a game has like side quests that were actually made by someone who cares It's not just like filling space of course, but I don't think like all these completionists Come on. I mean I say it in the game. I make fun of that in the game Yes, a little line about the speedrunners. It's like, you're making a variable. You shoot him. Hey, I'm rich with nobody.

I'm taking a stab at the idea of just like, what are you doing? Yeah, because then it's not the game, like, especially when you're jumping like halfway through and doing glitches through around stuff. So I like to speed run stuff just to see if I can make the jumps. But I am an action RPG. I love stories. If it's 60, 40 cut scenes, that's my type of thing. I like to sit down and have an experience.

I don't get the whole just blast through games and see how much you can speed run, but we won't keep you much longer. We're shortly running out of time here. We've got one more for you. So in your opinion, which game as a musician has the best soundtrack and how has it influenced you in your creative work, you know, creating games? Ocarina of Time. That's the right answer.

Hands down, fight me. Fight me. It's nostalgia, but at the same time, just how it works mechanically in the game. It's just it's it's how Interweaved the soundtrack is with the game. It is the identity of the game. The musical instrument is the game. So What I think a lot of indie game developers, maybe that's where they're faulting is That's like music is just kind of this last thing that I'm going to throw on it. And it's going to be something I just hire someone, a contract, make me some music.

And it's like, no, like these levels in the games, like I changed my levels for the music and I changed my music for the game. It's like this. The enmeshment of these two things. It's you're you are making one thing at the end of the day. That's my perspective on everything is like I'm making one thing at the end of the day. That's my perspective on everything is like, I'm making one thing and all of these, all of these things, the music, the art, the soundtrack, the dialogue, it's all in support of a central vision. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. That's, that's what it is. You like when you're, when you create something, there create something, it's not just one thing. It's many things together that all collaborate

to create something great. And so having the ability to have all those other kind of realms to dive in from or pull from for you is cool with the music and everything else. So man, this has been great. Like I uh, ACE and I are pretty big fans already. Uh, we are stoked and we're excited to see all the stuff we don't know about yet. Um, yeah, this, yeah, this is, uh, it's been great to hear about the creative process, kind of all the challenges you had to overcome and, and everything to,

to make what you've already created. And we're excited to see what else comes to be. But is there a good way? Obviously, everyone listening, please, if you can, one of the biggest ways to help out these solo devs, especially for these indie guys, is to wishlist. Everybody needs to go and wishlist this game. Check out the demo.

It's really, really cool. If anything, just wishlist it, because I said so. But is there any other ways that people can come and support you, or things that they should know? I would say I'm still... Are we calling it X? I'm still calling it Twitter. Ah, yeah, I think we just call it whatever you want. We don't care. I'm on Twitter.

Twitter is probably the most active on social media-wise. Okay. I'd say my Discord, but I don't want any more people in there. Get out of here. Get off my lawn. Yeah. It's too close. YouTube.

Subscribe to me on YouTube, because I feel like YouTube is, in terms of longevity, it's probably where I'm going to last, And it's got all of my content. Just watch my YouTube videos, because I've got stuff on there that I've forgotten about. Yeah, that's awesome. Nice. Well, cool. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us.

This was a blast. It's rare to get somebody that is this involved in a solo dev game that has this much passion for it and is actually pretty good. We play a lot of games and not all of them are very fun. We usually are pretty nice about it, but this is all genuine coming from us. You're real with us. We're real with you.

We love this one, but that's all for us today. Thank you so much for joining us and until next time, happy gaming. See ya. Peace out.