Video Gamers Podcast - The Solo Dev Diary - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Video game development is a massive challenge, but how does one person develop an entire game? Well in this gaming packed episode we find out! Does a solo dev do every aspect or do they lean on others? What are the challenges and the joys of it? Can you get rich if your video game gets popular? Join us as we chat all things solo development with Emily Sondering who is an accomplished developer with a great social media presence and a can’t quit attitude. It’s another awesome video game episode from your favorite gaming podcast! Check out and wishlist Lily’s World XD! https://store.steampowered.com/app/3195580/lilys_world_XD/  Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q   Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello fellow gamers and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. Stardew Valley? Braid? Minecraft? Undertale? Some of the most iconic games ever, but they all have one thing in common. They were made by a solo developer. How does one accomplish such a feat?

How can one person make a game without the help of an entire studio? Do they truly have to know how to do art, music, coding, and more? Well, we're about to find out in this episode, but first, some introductions are in order. I am your host Josh, and joining me, he likes Solo Cups, Han Solo,

and the anime Solo Leveling? It's, it's right. That's a lot of Solos, man. I didn't know where to go on this one, Ryan. I'm gonna be honest, man. That's fine, I'm just the lone ranger. I live a solo where to go on this one. Right? That's fine. I'm just the lone ranger. Live a solo life. Those are all great things though. I have not seen solo leveling, but I hear it's really good. Who doesn't love a good solo cup and Han solo, man.

He's, you know, he's a scoundrel. Yeah. Yeah. And joining us, she is a solo developer with multiple titles on her resume, who has shared the joys and the challenges of developing games on her social media. It's the one and only Emily Sondering. Hello, yes, I'm super excited that you guys have me here today and what an epic intro. Well, thank you, we try, we try.

You know, we gotta set the tone of the podcast. Emily, thank you so much for joining us. We are really excited to chat with you today about what it is like to be the only person making a video game and what is involved in that. We've been doing a series of talking with people from all over the gaming industry, voice actors, we even talked to a gaming psychologist, which was really cool. We've talked with animators, AAA studios, independent studios and stuff like that,

but we have not had the opportunity to talk to a solo developer. And so we are super excited to have you on with us. Um, and if you could, uh, just so our listeners can kind of get to know you a bit more, um, you've been a solo dev for a little while. Um, you are currently working on a game and you actually have another game that is out on steam that actually has a really good rating, um, that I'd love to talk about a little bit. Um, but can you tell us a little bit more about your prior work and, uh, and what you do? Yeah. So hi, I'm Emily. I am a Los Angeles based game developer and game dev creator.

You might know me from game dev videos I post on Instagram and YouTube under the name Sondering Emily. I also previously did make a game called A Taste of the Past. It is on Steam and has over 120,000 plays, which was really exciting. Um, and now I am working on my first horror game, Lily's world XC. It's the first time I'm going solo. And the premise of the game is you investigate a young girl's computer. It's set in the early two thousands. So you do things like chat on aim, go through your cringy blog.

You have a, I recreate friendster in my game. Everything seems normal until someone realizes you're not Lily. Ooh, creepy dark things happen. This is awesome. So we're going to get into Lily's world XD here in a little bit. Cause I am very curious about what it is like to kind of you know come up with The concept of a game approach it the early 2000s was a lot of fun

Like you said, you know days of myspace aim and all that stuff as well So yeah, I want to say just just watching that stuff and I see that aim window pop up and I'm like, oh my gosh Am I like taking me back? Am I like eighth grade again? Like what is happening right now? Oh, Ryan, you just dated yourself by the way. Oh yeah, no, I know I'm old. Yeah, I'm old. So Emily, is it safe to say that as a game developer that you are a gamer yourself?

Do you play a lot of games? Is this just a passion that you have for creating them or do you actually, are you a gamer? I definitely am a gamer. I feel like it's strange to make games without playing them. It's like writing a book without reading, right? Yeah. Making movies without watching them. I typically play more independent story driven games.

I've never been super into AAA, although I do really like The Last of Us. Yes. But yeah, I actually I before this, I used to only make cozy games because that was all I played. And then earlier this year, I discovered the indie horror game called Omori and it blew my mind. Oh, that game is incredible. Yes.

So good. And that made me realize the potential of horror to tell a really moving story. So after playing a few other horror games, another notable one I love is called Inscription. Yep, very familiar with that one too. And I decided why not give my own hand at it? And that's really what led to Lully's World XD. Go ahead. I was just going to say that's awesome. My daughter is the biggest Amore fan, like that you could imagine She actually went as one of the characters from Amore to the Phoenix fan fusion, which is like Comic Con

So she like cosplayed one of the characters and a bunch of people recognized who she was which she just absolutely loved So that is a that is a very popular game for a lot of people and then inscription is Unbelievably good. So that is that a really, those are two very good games. Which character did she cosplay? Because I've also cosplayed and I'm wondering if we cosplay the same person. Man, all I remember is that she had a wreath of flowers around her head and some, and some like coveralls,

like almost like overalls or something. She's like, I know, yeah, that's bubblegum. She's Basil and then I went as Mari. Okay, that was it. Yes. Basil rings a bell. And she was so something. She's like, I know. Yeah. That's bubble. No, she's Basil. And then I went as Mari. Okay. That was it. Yes. Basil rings a bell. And she was so excited when people are like, look, it's Basil. And she was like, yes. That's one of those crazy things. That's when you cosplay and people recognize you. Can I get a picture?

You're like, absolutely. Yeah, that's cool. So, uh, I mean, you mentioned last of us. I'm a big action RPG guy. I love Last of Us is in my top 10. You know, God of War, Uncharted, all those are big, kind of near to my heart. What is like some of your favorite games in like, as far as like genre based? Are you falling in love more in the horror genre? Or more action RPG? Like where do you kind of gravitate towards with your game kind of play? Yeah, so horror is something that I got interested in

over the last year. Before that, I never really played horror games. But in terms of what I enjoy in the horror genre, I specifically like psychological horror games. I'm not a huge fan of like scary monster in the woods or jump scare. I like horror that gets under your skin and messes with your brain. Yes. And. Pushes the genre entirely outside of horror.

I really enjoy heartfelt story games. So basically the opposite horror that messes with your mind or horror that touches your heart or games that touch your heart. So some of my favorite games in the opposing genre would be Spiritfarer. Before your eyes is probably my favorite game of all time. Oh, wow. It's a game that uses your webcam and every time you blink, it progresses the story. What? What a cool mechanic.

Yeah, it's really cool. So it tracks your eye movement. Oh my goodness. Wow. That's wild. I haven't heard of that one. It's neat when they put in interesting mechanics like that that just change standard gameplay to something kind of unique and different. But I will say it's more than just a gimmick.

It works really well with the story and the message it's trying to tell. It's a game about life flashing before your eyes. So then that's why there's also the blinking element. But yeah, I would say I also really like management games. So I really like Cult of the Lam. That was a great game. That's a game that I really keep meaning to play. I have heard nothing but good things about it.

And that's one of those few that has just flown under my radar and I haven't had a chance to dive into it. We got like a hundred games for me to play. Dude, it's the backlog man. It's that never ending. It just keeps getting added to. Yeah. I, this is funny cause this blinking game, I feel like I just sit there and stare

and be like, no, I can't advance yet. The thing with the blinking game is that you want to keep your eyes open as long as possible for the game. And so my eyes end up hurting at the end of the game. But then by the end of the game, I'm crying because it's very emotional. So I'm just like blinking and the game just keeps switching because I keep blinking. That's amazing. So I like that you have like these two opposite ends of like psychological horror, which is also my favorite kind of horror. Um, I, I want something to mess with my head. I want it to kind of freak me out. Sometimes it's the things you can't see that are the scary things versus like you

said, like just an obvious jump scare or some kind of creepy looking monster or something like that. And then it's funny cause you mentioned your love of cozy games and stuff. And I was like, these are two very different genres. Yeah. So actually before I got into horror games, I only promoted cozy games on my channel. And then eventually I started promoting horror and I expected there to be a drop-off because the audience is now confused that I'm switching genres. But surprisingly, my videos about horror games do just as well as my videos about cozy games. I do think that they surprisingly share an audience, at least from what I see in my own

video performance. Yeah. I think people like that kind of difference. It's like, let me go this direction for a little while. Okay. I'm nice and relaxed. I've played Animal Crossing and my cozy game and stuff like that. And then it's like, okay, now I need something a little bit different.

What can really scare the tar out of me? Yeah. You know? So OK, so I want to kind of talk a little bit about what inspired you to kind of become a game developer. So was there a particular game or gaming moment that inspired you to want to get into the actual development of games yourself? Yeah. So the first one is actually I mentioned earlier, which is The Last of Us.

So before that, I thought that games were just about violence or shooting, or I thought about multiplayer, Call of Duty, which never really appealed to me. Also, The Last of Us came out when I was like 13 or 14. And so at that point in my life, games were a quote unquote boys club type thing. And it was when I discovered The Last of Us that I realized that games could be such a powerful medium for storytelling. And also like Ellie was one of the main characters, girls can play too. So I got really involved in gaming after that.

I was really into AAA at the time and then eventually made my way to indie. I would say like another moment that really solidified that I wanted to be a game developer was the game called Night in the Woods. It's a game about a young girl who drops out of college and goes back to her hometown and realizes it's the same, but also very different.

And that's actually something that I was going through at the time. I'd taken a quarter off UCLA and I was back in my hometown and things were different, but the same. And I think that was really pivotal because it was the first time I felt that a game was actually telling my life story. Cause The Last of Us, it's very relatable and touching, but I don't necessarily

see myself in those characters. And it's also depicting a zombie apocalypse. Versus Night in the Woods, I felt like it was depicting my life and it just felt so special. And I realized that I could use games as a medium to tell the story of my life or dreams I have or things that scare me or just, you know, it could be used as a vehicle to express myself. I love that. You mentioned Spirit Fair earlier and we had one of us play Spirit Fair a while back. And again, it was that kind of relatable, people are going to find things that relate to them. I've heard of, it's A Night in the Woods, right? Is that the? Yeah, I've heard of that.

I actually looked into that at one point because I was kind of like, man, I need something to play and then I didn't wind up picking that one up. But I know that one's very, very highly rated for the story that it tells, which can really resonate with people. And you touched on something too, where I think you're right.

I think a lot of times people hear gamer and they think call of duty. They think shooters, they think, oh, well, you just like, you know, running around, like pretend murdering people and stuff like that. And it's like, there is so much more to the world of gaming than people realize. And I love when we get the examples of a story that touches people because like let's be honest like I love a good movie but no movie will ever come close to the interactivity that gaming does you know and where you are you are the character you are literally experiencing that story firsthand and things like that so

I love the fact that people are pushing the boundaries of storytelling when it comes to gaming I love a good action people are pushing the boundaries of storytelling when it comes to gaming. I love a good action paced chaotic game, but at the same time, I also really love that deep like, man, this made me think like, you know, this this like brought a tear to my eye kind of game too. Yeah, I would say from a young age, I knew I always wanted to tell stories, but I was never sure of what medium. So in middle school, I would make these cringy short films. In high school, I was really into poetry. And in college, I thought maybe briefly I'd work in entertainment.

I entered at NBC, realized it was not for me. And it wasn't towards the end of college that I thought, you know, I've always loved games. Maybe I should try making them. And that's when it really clicked to me when I started making games that this was the medium for me. And I think it really is about what you touched on, which is the player agency. I think it's so cool that instead of just admiring a character or watching them on a screen, you are the character, you make decisions as if you were the character.

And I think game design can be really interesting in what allows the player to do, but also what it doesn't allow the player to do to tell a specific story. Yeah, no, I love that. And I think we're seeing more and more examples of how people tell stories differently, whether it's through the experience like inscription. Inscription doesn't tell you anything. You're just in a cabin with some creepy guy playing cards. But we see a lot more of that kind of immersive storytelling.

A game that I mention all the time, a game called Outer Wilds does that where you have no idea what's going on. But by the end of the game, you just kind of sit back and you go like, oh my gosh, dude. I learned all this stuff just from playing. It wasn't this big exposition dump or a two hour long cut scene that was kind of telling me everything that I needed to know on that.

So I love it. I can't wait to hear a little bit more about Lily's World XD. But before we get there, we got to kind of go like, who's crazy enough to want to solo develop a game? I mean, everybody knows game development is hard enough as it is. We just talked to Bungie, okay? You know, Halo and Destiny, and they were like, making video games is really hard. And then they have hundreds of people that are doing that and you are but one person. So what like what made you go, you know what? I'm going to learn how to do all of it. Yeah. Well, firstly, I do want to clarify. I don't do every, every single

part of the game. I consider myself more of a mostly solo dev or like a solopreneur because, for example, like I hired someone to do some of the sound effects. While I am doing a lot of the art, like a couple of things here and there I've contracted. And I've also had someone help me code a couple of parts of my game. But in terms of like what, you know, I would say the game is vastly solo developed. And in terms of like what led to that decision.

So before this, I've worked in teams for every game I've ever made. And I was working on a game and it never ended up coming out. It ended up being canceled. And I was reflecting on some of the failures of that project and why it failed. And I actually started Lily's World XT as just like my escape from that project I used to be working on. And the main reason I did it solo was honestly, it was just such a weird niche idea.

I figured no one else would want to work on this except me. But ultimately I actually have found a lot of joy in solo developing. Before this, I thought it would never be for me, but I'm really enjoying it. I think certain things that I really like about solo dev is actually how fast moving it is. So I thought that working with a team would be faster because you don't have to do every single discipline. But for example, in the game that I was working on, let's say we wanted to do a design for the main character, we would have a concept artist do 20 variations of that main character design. And it would be

like, okay, we like the eyes of this one and the ears of that one and the clothes of this one. And then she'd have to do like five more designs based off her preferences. And then this process could take a really long time versus for Lily's World XD. I'm the only artist or main lead artist, right? And so I thought, okay, you know, I'm not going to, you know, I approve everything. I don't have to go through all these rounds of feedback and it actually can lead to creative solutions. So I do enjoy doing art, but I didn't want to do all the art of the main character. So I came up with the creative solution to use my face. So Lovie's World XD uses real pictures of the young girl, which are of me as a teenager.

And so in a weird way, even though I'm doing everything, the process of approval is so much faster because it's like, Hey, Emily, do you approve this? Yeah, I approve that. I can just finish it actually a lot faster, surprisingly. And I think like one big benefit is that, you know, I could do play testing so much easier because it would take so long in my previous team to even get to a place where we felt comfortable enough to have others play the game and then give their feedback. Then of course we have to iterate on the feedback. But for me, because I'm just deciding it all,

I can have so many more rounds of feedback because it's, you know, build feedback, build feedback, build feedback, like it's so much faster actually. And I think actually the game is turning out better because I can just rely on player feedback rather than getting in like five. I remember in my old team, we had this like three hour debate over whether a chicken should talk. Oh no. I get that. I worked for a big corporation for like 16 years and it's one of those things where you're absolutely right. And I don't think gamers think

about this. When you are solo developing a game, you can just do what you want. You don't have to pause and wait and say, OK, well, now I have to send this over to creative and then get creative to sign off on it. Exactly. You know, and that kind of thing. So it's really neat that you said that because I personally, as a lifelong gamer, have never thought that that could actually be a benefit to how fast you can actually get something done.

Yes. The con is that you do freaking everything. That is the downside there is like, oh, you want this done, guess who's doing it. Guess who's going to do it. Yep. That's the thing. You get just so much flexibility and you avoid all that red tape when you do it yourself. Again, like you said though, you're the one doing it yourself. I work solo, I work for myself, and sometimes it's really good. Sometimes I'm like, man, I should really get somebody on board to help me. But, you know, so there's obviously, you know, as you well know, there's a lot of crazy aspects to designing the game and a lot of work that's involved. How do you go about like deciding on these people and picking what parts to

kind of sub out to get that little bit of help to alleviate some pressure from you? Yeah. So in terms of like music and sound effects, I've never done that in my life and I know I would suck. So that was an obvious win to contract out. And I have been working with a programmer to help, like they have helped me code a couple of the things in my game So in my demo, there's gonna be a dress up game They coded that and then they also helped me code the tab system in my game because the game takes place in a computer

So like how the web address works and that's actually a very interesting story of how I met my programmer So last year I went to the game developer conference and my flight got really delayed because of a storm. And so I was just sitting at the airport and then this person goes, are you saundering Emily? And it was someone who actually watched my videos. So we had this like two hour conversation at the airport and we both live in LA. So many, many, many, many, many months passed. And so Lilith's World XC is actually how I'm learning how to code. Before this, I've never coded. So as you can imagine, I suck.

So in my Discord, I had this problem and I was like, hey, does anyone know how to code this? So I had various people try to help me and every person made some progress on the issue, but didn't solve it completely. And then eventually this person, Kirk, who had met me at the game developer conference so many months ago, was like, do you want to just give me access to your project? And then the next day just did it all themselves with no just like just took that initiative. I was like, wow, do you want a job?

This is your job interview. So I literally offered them the position right then and there. And ever since they've been helping me with small tasks and also helping me bug fix, which is truly the most painful part of my game. That being said, I am still programming my game. Unfortunately, I did not. Yeah. I'm still working on that. I was so prior to, to, you know, you coming on the podcast, I was actually checking out some of your stuff because it's very curious about how a solo developer goes about doing that. One of the things that I noticed, especially that you post on your social media platforms is the kind of journey that you have taken with learning all of this stuff.

You talked a little bit about design and art to a degree, learning some of this stuff. You know, you talked a little bit about, you know, design and art to a degree, learning some of the coding that is involved in that. And I think that to me is one of the most impressive things is like seeing somebody saying, listen, I have this, I have this goal. I want to be a game developer. You know, I will, I will certainly contract out music. I am not musically inclined at all. Um, so that is something where I'd be like, help me please. Somebody help me. Um, but you know, you, you tackle all aspects, you know, of game development and you kind

of share that journey with people, which I absolutely love. And again, you know, as a lifelong gamer, I kind of got enthralled in some of this like, Oh man, yeah, I saw your bug fixes video where you're like, this is the most frustrating thing in the world. Like, ah, and I love that because it's like, as gamers, we're very quick to notice bugs and things like that. But I think a lot of times we don't get to see the behind the scenes where something that would appear small can be the most frustrating

thing in the world to know why is it this working? So did you, are you just self-taught on everything? Did you go to school for some of this? Like how did you get the skills necessary to tackle this? Yeah. So I am self-taught on everything. I did go to college, but I went to college for English, which is, I mean, technically I do. There's a lot of narrative in my game, but when I went to college, it was more for analyzing literature and not very much creative work. So I actually feel like I didn't really gain a lot of English skills from attending university.

So I, I will thank UCLA though, because they have a game development club and that's what led me to making games. So in that they have students kind of teaching each other. So in that way, I definitely got a lot of mentorship, but I've never taken a course. I've never paid to learn anything. If I don't know how to do something, I Google how to do this on YouTube. Yeah. Oh, the things you can learn from YouTube now. So I started just doing writing and games because that's all I knew as an English major. And then slowly I got to designing them. And I actually worked briefly for a mobile game

doing some community management, writing and design. And that's actually how I got, I actually, so before I became a full-time indie game developer, I actually also worked at Meta for a while. I actually got that job at Meta because they saw me design for a mobile game and they thought, oh, maybe you could design a mobile app for us too. So I just got into that more naturally. And then in terms of other aspects, UI design, which is a huge aspect of my game, I just taught myself how to use Figma. In terms of Unity, I also just taught myself,

I mean, coding, I had one friend, I was like, you know, about eight months ago, I was like, I need to learn how to code for this game. And I have a lot of friends who code. So I asked one of my friends to just come over and give me like a few coding lessons. And I just go, great, I'm going to figure the rest of it out myself. And then I just Googled a lot.

I love that. I mean, it's, it's, you know, my kids are younger. They are, you know, we homeschooled them. And one of the things that homeschooling teaches you is figure it out. If you don't know the answer to something, figure it out. And it is crazy to me that we live in a world where you can figure out just about anything if you're passionate enough about it. I mean, my dishwasher broke a few months ago, and it was like, I just Googled dishwasher not filling up with water.

And before you know it, somebody's giving me a step-by-step video on how to fix the dishwasher. And it's just like, but the fact that somebody can say, Hey, I want to get into game development. I need to know how to code. I mean, unity, right? Like it's gamers we've heard of unity.

I would not know the first thing on how to use unity, but you're looking it up going, Hey, you know, there's people out there that can teach me the basics of using unity and then you're developing a game with that knowledge, you know, there's people out there that can teach me the basics of using unity and then you're developing a game with that knowledge, you know, it's, it's really impressive. So, um, it's one of those things is if there's the willingness to learn, the information is out there with the web, like we have just the biggest library you could ever imagine with step-by-step videos that show you everything you need to do.

And so there's no excuse not to have the ability if there's the desire. So that's so cool. I mean, gosh, to me, I'd like, I picture it as like, you're looking up at the top of Mount Everest and you're by yourself because you're a solo dev and you're like, yep, I'm going to go climb that mountain. Like, let's go. Yeah. I will say, so, you know, I get a lot of people asking me, Oh, what should I major

in in college? Cause I want to make games. What course should I take? And it's asking me, oh, what should I major in in college? Because I want to make games. What course should I take? And it's like, I literally didn't do any of that. I just YouTube University was the way I learned. Yeah, that's amazing. So one of the things with being a solo dev or an indie dev that we have seen, because we talked to a lot of them is, one of the biggest challenges for a developer is just getting name recognition out there. You know, I mean, we have a lot of indie devs that reach out to us that say, Hey, can you talk about my game? You know, or something like that. And you know, even in the podcast world, right? Like, you know, we try to get that exposure, right? You know, if people can

find you or learn about you, you kind of have a leg up on things. And you have, you're in this really neat place where you have a really neat and established social media presence that I think is number one is a challenge in and of itself to kind of build up a social media presence, you know, with my. With my career and then with this podcast, I have definitely tried to focus on some of that. And then I just go, this doesn't make any sense to me. But you've done it. You have a very large following on Instagram. You've put out a lot of videos and things like that. So I want to just kind of touch on that for a minute because we do have a lot of indie developers that listen to the show and they've been learning

a lot from this. So was there a moment when you were developing your social media platforms where it took off? Was there a moment where all of a sudden it was just like, oh my goodness, everybody is finding out about me. Was it more of a grind over the years kind of thing for you? Like I'd like to just kind of talk about that a little bit more on how you managed to build that up and, and what,

you know, your kind of idea behind that was. Yeah. So I guess to tell the story of how I got started in social media a few years ago, I made a game called the taste of the past and I wanted people to play it. So I thought, okay, short form video is popping up and so I should make some videos promoting the game. So I asked people in my team who would like to contribute to making videos about a taste of the past. And everyone said, not me. So I was the one who had to do it. And I saw it as the biggest chore in the beginning.

I hated it. I resented it because I don't know, I just like to sit in bed and be relaxed. And you know, in the videos I have to pose weirdly and wear outfits and just, it felt very unnatural to me and I did not like it in the beginning. A lot of people ask me, you know, like, how did you get started? It's just like, I didn't want to get started. I was forced into getting started. So after a while, I realized that people weren't just interested in my game.

Some people are like, oh, well, you know, you're the developer. How did you do this? How did you do that? So for the first few months, I grew a small audience on TikTok by answering questions like, you know, how did I get started making games advice for beginner game developers? And eventually I thought I should post one of these to my Instagram. My Instagram had 800 followers at the time. It was just friends, coworkers. It was more just to show them that I had been working on this thing. So I reposted one of my videos and then that video got two million views.

I gained 6000 followers overnight and in three months I gained 50000 followers. Wow. So it was like, I guess, slowish in the first few months. And then it was like explosion. And. I learned to like making the video. Eventually, I stopped seeing it as a chore. And yeah, I'm in this extremely fortunate position where I think for a lot of indie

developers getting that first initial hump of recognition is very difficult because there are so many games coming out, so much competition. I think because of my social media following, it does really help that I have already a built in community who is excited about my game. But that being said, you know, it doesn't guarantee that my game is going to sell a lot of copies or that people are interested, but it really has helped me get a gauge about

if my ideas are in the right place. So actually for Lily's World XD, this is even before I knew the title of the game, this is before I had any official art, anything, I just had the idea. I've always been fascinated with games that take place in a limited surface. So for example, I made a game about a couple years ago about that takes place in a phone. So I had this idea, oh, I should take place in a computer. And I really been getting into horror. So I thought, okay, a horror game that takes place in a computer. You know, I was coming up with some of the

ideas, right? So I made a video just saying, Hey, I have this new idea. I showed off some of the early designs I had looking back. They were so ugly. I don't know why I felt comfortable sharing them. And then that video got 2 million views off just like a couple of really, really, really ugly designs and just an idea. And that's what validated to me, well, like this idea is legs. And I think that's one big benefit because for a lot of people, they actually have to make the game and then see if there's interest. I just made a video and I already know that, hey, there's an audience for this idea.

That's, I mean, what a really neat way to kind of use that as a, like a test. Like you said, you know, if I throw something out there and people go, eh, well then maybe that's not worth pursuing. But if I throw something out there, even if I'm not necessarily like, you know, I haven't decided to pursue this yet. If, if you get 2 million people, they'll go, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Then you kind of go, well, wait a minute, maybe I'm onto something here. Maybe there's something, maybe there's a little bit, something there that I, uh,

need to explore a little bit more. That's so cool. I mean, like even with us, you know, with the, uh, I say, would we, we would consider ourselves a successful podcast, but there's, there's so many out there and you just have to kind of put out that content and see what sticks and what, like you said, has legs that can keep going. So, you know, in this crazy explosion,

I'm sure it was a whirlwind of, man, these people really like this. This is kind of something I wasn't expecting. Was there any cool, like, what was your favorite moment out of all of that, you know, something, a crazy interaction or something you got to do? Like, was there anything unique that stood out to you? I think one really awesome moment in my development is my game was showcased in the OTK games expo, which is run by that popular streamer organization, OTK.

And so for that, I actually got to come in person and answer questions about my game, and I think there were about 50 games that were showcased and at the end, answer questions about my game. And I think there were about 50 games that were showcased. And at the end, they had five developers win $10,000. And then the top voted game would win a custom PC. And I won the $10,000 and the custom PC. What? What?

It was beautiful. And I was like, whoa, people really like this game. That's a freaking cool moment, man. Yeah, that's perfect. That's like, that's top tier right there, man. Yeah. Oh, that is awesome. So 10 grand and a custom built PC.

Yeah, and they would decorate it with the art of Lily's World XC. I haven't gotten it in the mail yet, but I hear it coming. Oh, but still. But still, how cool is that? Yeah, that's really cool. If anyone ever tries to give you any gruff, you can just be like,

did you want a showcase and a free gaming PC? Yeah. You know? Yeah, but that's win a showcase and a free gaming PC? Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. How would you look in? I was going to say, we've teased Lily's World XD long enough. I really would love to kind of know more about this because obviously this is the passion that you have right now. You've been working on this world.

How long have you been working on it? About eight months, which is crazy to even think that it's been that long. There's also so much left to go Yeah, I feel like that's the thing with games is it's like I'm not close to this but then at the same time It's like you're constantly working on it So, you know, I guess the I just want to know more like the floor is yours What can you tell us, you know, give us the the 30 or 60 second kind of synopsis of Lily's World XD.

Yeah. So the idea for it came out of watching horror YouTubers, like what happened to Reddit user r slash da da da or like the creepiest dark mystery. And I always had this idea. What if you were the person investigating that mystery for the first time, or what if you were the subject of that mystery? And that's what really spurred the idea of Lily's World XD. You find this young girl's computer and at first everything seems normal. It's very girly, it almost has like a kitschy aesthetic. You talk to her, crush, you get, you know, you learn the inside jokes with her best friend, but eventually you find messages addressed to you, the player. So it has fourth wall breaks and you really dive deeply into this story about Lily's life and what has happened to her.

I would say to compare it to any similar media, if you like the substance, you would definitely like Lily's World XD. It talks a lot about beauty standards, growing up, teenage angst, being chronically online. It is definitely a weird game, but if you're down to get weird, you should play it. We always joke in my family that if you're not weird, then you're boring. Yeah. You know, so. You want to get weird.

So, you know, and again, I don't, I, you know, I've watched some of the videos that you've put out about the game and kind of the preview trailer and stuff like that. These I have zero firsthand experience, but it almost reminds me. Are you familiar with a game called Her Story or Immortality? Yes, I actually am. I have been compared to that game. I've played both games, by the way, and I enjoyed both. I would say like that game was not the like main inspiration game, but I really do like that. If I were to point to like a main inspiration game, it's probably either Simulacra or Emily is Away.

Ironically, I know the name, the game is called my name. Simulacra is a horror game that takes place inside a phone and Emily is Away is a narrative game that takes place entirely inside of AIM. Oh, that's really neat. See, I've not, we have a really good friend of ours that used to be on this podcast that absolutely loved that kind of genre of like the. And again, I have no firsthand knowledge, but almost like that,

like discovery aspect with like immortality, where you're looking through these these clips of games or her story, I think, is very similar in that way, where it is kind of the premise is the more you dig, the more you kind of put this story together kind of thing, which always sounds really neat. And I love when people come up with these like unique angles for that kind of stuff. You know, you mentioned it in the beginning of the episode

where, you know, you've really kind of found this, like this neat juxtaposition of like going from cutesy game to psychological horror game. And I think that absolutely is visible in Lily's World XD with like parts of the game, like you said, are very cutesy. You're looking through this girl's laptop. So of course she's got, you know, a dress up game and you know, everything's, you know, these cute colors. And then all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, this, there's, then there's this moment of darkness in there. So is that you like coming through into your game? Like, is that your personality, you know, kind of being,

you know, like on display there with your tastes in gaming? Yeah, I would definitely say that every game I've ever made in my life is a self insert for myself. And in Lillie's World XC, I guess it is a literal self-insert because my face is in it, but it's also a metaphorical self-insert. So for example, Lily talks about things that she liked in the early 2000s. And those are all things that I also liked. She talked about insecurities. Those are the insecurities I had when I was a teenager. For me, it was really important to actually put myself

into Lily both like physically and mentally because you know when I was a teenager I felt very misunderstood. I felt othered. I felt I don't know I just I never always fit in and I think that that's what I want this game to be to have teenagers play it and feel like it's okay to be themselves. It's okay to have weird niche interests and it's okay to not look a certain way. And I was definitely made fun of for looking Asian. I felt super ugly because I was Asian. And it wasn't until college that I realized like, oh wait, I'm not ugly. I just, people were just racist. And that is a very similar struggle that Lily goes into

as in like not feeling beautiful, feeling these societal pressures that she has to look a certain way. And the game is about like strong female friendship and valuing oneself outside of just appearance. That's why it's very similar to the substance. If you've seen that movie. Oh, definitely.

I mean, it's, it's cool to see something that, um, honestly to that, uh, it's what's exciting for me is that it's. It's something that's been created that only honestly could have been created in this time frame because Going back to you know your younger days and with aim and that Like you couldn't create this game in any other era or so it is almost like a timepiece and it's like a time capsule that You know encapsulates your world in your life in your story I mean that that's what seems so cool about it for me

What what for you is it just like the storytelling? Is it how you approach it? Like, what's the most exciting thing of this game for you? Yeah, well, I was really excited to recreate an early 2000s internet. I know it's very ironic, but I actually do not enjoy the internet now. I am a content creator, but I don't like Instagram. I don't like TikTok. I don't like Twitter. I feel like all these social medias are becoming very homogenized. And now when you post in social media, it feels more like you're promoting something. I mean, hello, I am the biggest perpetrator of... I am that. And it's less about just expressing yourself.

And I feel like in the early 2000s, people would just post to post. They would overshare about their lives because they didn't care about stranger danger. They would share their art, their poetry, and they didn't care if it got a lot of likes or views. And I find that really pure. And that's what I want to recreate in my game.

So, you know, in my game, there's old forums, you know, she has a blog that you can read and it just feels really authentic versus I feel like the internet now is just so perfectly curated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're, we're old men. And so it's like, you know, I like to shake my hand sometimes at the sky and go like, Oh, social media is ruining everybody. You know, we're old men. And so it's like, you know, I like to shake my hand sometimes at the sky and go like, oh, social media is ruining everybody, you know.

But there's also a little bit of truth to that. But then at the same time, I'm on it every day, too. Yeah. Doom scrolling away. Doom scrolling. Damn, man. I can't stop it. So OK, so one of the things, I mean,

as you are creating Lily's World XD and you have this excitement and you have this passion and you're obviously pouring tons of time and effort into this. Do you have moments? And, and, and, you know, I guess this kind of touches on, you know, you know, prior work on games that you've had and stuff too, where like how do you balance like the stress or the nervousness of a game, you know, like, um, you know, with a taste of the past, for instance, right? You release that on steam. Um, it's got amazing reviews. So kudos to you. Number one, cause it's hard to get gamers to agree on anything, much less, Hey, this game's 97% overwhelmingly positive kind of thing. But you know, you

know, how do you deal with that? Like fast forward two years from now, however long before Lily's world XD is, is about to get released. Like I can't imagine the nervousness to go like I've worked on this for three years. What if people hate it kind of thing? So how do you, how do you deal with that? Um, short answer. I don't. Yeah, there you go. I'm just nervous all the time. Actually, so a couple of friends came over last night and one of my friends is like a professional coder.

So I was asking her how to approach this coding problem in my game. And so we started playing it. And then I realized that there was a bug that I've never seen before. And I freaked out. And like, I was like, okay, let's just, you know, she tried to fix it, we couldn't fix it.

And I was like, let's just go to dinner. But at dinner the entire time I was thinking about this bug, oh my God, why can't it get fixed? And I know like the bug was not the biggest deal in the world. And obviously I will get to it eventually, but it was just this nagging sense in me. Why does that error exist in the game when it didn't before?

Who put that in there? It was probably me because I'm the one working on the project. I don't handle my stress well. That's a good answer. I know. I mean, that's a good answer. Ryan, we're very similar in a way. We're both a little bit of that perfectionist mentality. And I understand that because it's like, if something should work and it's not working, I'm with you. My brain will stew on that. We'll go to dinner and the whole time we're sitting

at dinner I'm just thinking, I wonder if it's this? Could it be this? I bet if I try this, that might work. And then you get home and none of it works and then you're just like, no! My wife will tell me a whole story and then I'm just like, yeah, wait, what, what?

And I have no clue what anybody said the whole time because I'm running through everything in my brain. Same, but I will say sometimes, like I remember there's been a few times where I've had a bug and then I was like, okay, I need to not be a disgusting human. I take a shower and then in the shower, I think about the solution.

And when I come back, the solution comes to me. Shower thoughts are some of the most productive thoughts out there. Dude, that you're in a moment when you fix it in your head and then you're like, that's what it is. And then you can run and go fix it. And you're like, I still got it. I still got it. I will say like, okay, I don't think this is a good thing, but I do think that my

anxiety and obsessiveness is probably what makes the game good because I think to be a solo dev, you have to be very self-motivated. Yes. Right? So you need to be that type of person to think about the bug during dinner because it's that important that you fix it rather than take things casually. So I think it's good for the game, bad for my mental. It is interesting. I, you know, I, I,

my daughters are 17 and 15 and my 15 year old daughter is very much like me where if something is not right, it really bugs her and she wants to fix it and kind of things like that. And so I I've told her like, you know, that perfectionist mentality can actually serve you really, really well in life because again, like you said, it really kind of drives you to succeed and things like that.

At the same time, it can absolutely drive you very crazy at the same time. So it's like, I've been trying to teach her, sometimes you have to just know when to turn it off. But especially, like you said, in game development, I mean, that is part of what drives you. And it says, hey, I want to make the absolute best game I can make. I'm not satisfied with leaving this bug in there, you know, or not having this

work the way that I want it to work. So I definitely think that that can serve you. It's just like you said, it just kind of drives us crazy along the way too. So, um, so as an experienced solo developer, um, you know, you're currently in the middle of working on Lillie's World XD. Do you have any advice or tips for somebody that might be looking into developing a game themselves? Where would you recommend somebody start? Yeah, I should have a lot of advice on this. My first advice is to just start.

And what I mean by that is I get so many people asking me questions like, what is the perfect game engine for me? Should I make 3D or 2D? And it's like, don't think about these questions. Just pick one game engine, maybe read one article, watch one YouTube video about it, pick one, and then Google roll a ball tutorial game engine, and then just do that.

And that's how you start. When I started making games, I never contemplated what game engine I should do because the people around me were just using unity. So I thought, okay, I'm going to use unity. No thought about it. I didn't even contemplate what else I should do. When I decided I wanted to learn how to program, I didn't look into what is the best expensive course. I don't look into getting back into college. I just was like, okay, YouTube University,

I'm gonna Google basic Unity tutorial and then I'm gonna watch that and that's how I'm gonna make my game. So I feel like more of the doing, less of the thinking, honestly, is a big advice. The second big advice I would say is to make a lot of bad things and be proud of the fact that you made a lot of bad things.

I hear a lot of developers want to make the next Stardew Valley as their first game. And like, yes, I guess, you know, Concerned Ape did do that. But I'm not Concerned Ape and you know, you're the point zero, zero, zero, zero, one percent to be Concerned Ape. Concerned Ape was also in a very unique position because he didn't really make money during the production of Stardew Valley. He worked either not at all or part time at a movie theater and get a girlfriend who subsidized his life. So like, unless you are in that extremely lucky camp.

Which is also the 1%. Yeah, I like that man. What the heck? Having everything paid for you and all you can do is work on your game full time. That's probably not going to be you, but that's okay. I think when I was making games, I was doing a ton of game jams. Game jams are where you make a game from scratch in a short period of time. And yeah, they were bad.

And I honestly didn't care actually, like, because I would make them in a weekend and if it was bad, I'd go, okay, onto the next one, onto the next one. And then eventually they got better because eventually I made a taste of the past, which actually started as a three day project. Actually, in fact, the vast majority of a taste of the past was made in three days. All I did was polish it up a little bit, add a new scene, fix a couple bugs. And then that's what led to the steam release, which led to so many other opportunities in game dev

So yeah, be proud of making bad things Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice to be honest with you I think I think like you said a lot of people want to just shoot for the moon and it's like you have to learn how to Start with the basics first, you know, before you can do that. So that's, that's so awesome. Yeah. I love that. I mean, you learned, you learned so much more a lot of times.

I mean, obviously you want to succeed, but, but when you learn so much from a failure, you're like, okay, that doesn't work. That's off the board. Now I know that I have to go this way. And then as you just progress with that, you keep checking off that list and you just get better and better. And so, I mean, that's so awesome. So with Lily's World XD,

I mean, you've been on it for about eight months, you said. You know, what's next? So you got hopefully like a release date coming up, beta access, you know, anything like that kind of in the works? Yeah, so in terms of like maybe my next marketing beat, I don't know when it's gonna happen, but I do have a demo that will be released

publicly eventually. Actually today is a very exciting day. So I'm hosting my first in-person Lily's World XD Meetup where I'm giving a talk and then select participants will be actually, will be, sorry, I'm giving a talk at UCLA and afterwards select participants will be able to play the demo early. Oh, awesome.

Because right now I've only showed the demo to my close friends. So this will be the first time where people I've never met in my life will be playing the game and giving their honest feedback scared, but excited. And yeah, eventually the game will come out. I'm hoping for some time in twenty twenty six. But I don't want to say a date, because if I don't say a date, I can't be late. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're more and more game developers getting savvy about that. They're just saying it'll it'll be out when it's ready.

And honestly, it is one of the things that I am proud of gamers to sort of adopt, uh, late only recently where it's like, Hey, just release the game when it's ready. You know, like I think too many gamers were very caught up on release dates and then they get missed and then they get mad. And then that just turns into a mess for everybody at that point. So the, the silk song strategy. into a mess for everybody at that point. So the silk song strategy. Yeah. Well, it just, you'll get the game when the game is ready for you to have that kind of thing. That's probably a good idea. So, well, Emily,

we are running low on time. Um, on this episode, this has been really awesome to talk to you. Um, a couple more questions before we kind of sign off for this is one of the things that I've always wondered, especially, I mean, you mentioned concerned a start to Valley. I mean, you know, that is obviously the dream for a lot of people. But you know, that's an unrealistic dream for a lot of people too. I mean, yes, you can say I want to shoot for the moon, but then you're probably just going to fall short. And instead of being proud of the accomplishment, a lot of people view the failure instead, which is not a good thing either. So how do you measure the success of a game?

Because it's one of those things where, is it just the popularity of a game? Is it the financial reward from selling a game? Is it simply the review scores? You know, hey, maybe only 200 people played this game, but they all gave it a 98% rating. So I'm happy with that. How do you measure the success of a game that you spent time creating? Yeah, well, I would say now financial success matters to me

because I do this full time. Yeah. Of course, I want to have the money to continue making games. But when I started making games, I would say that I measured the success in learning. So actually in a lot of the early games I did, I would try different things. So in one game, I was just the artist.

In another game, I actually did music. I did music one time for a game. And one game I did just the UI design. And so I was learning about all these different disciplines, which I actually do think now has helped me so much as a solo developer, as someone who now does every discipline. Yeah. But I would definitely say, like, I'm the type of person

where user feedback is super important to me. I think there are certain developers who think, like, I'm right because I'm the one making the game. We've seen it. I have expertise. Yeah. But I'm one where, like, the player is right. So if I think a puzzle is amazing and creative, but all the play

testers don't get it, it's confusing. It's not creative and amazing. It's bad. Right. I remember when I made the game jam version of a taste of the past. One comment that I got was talking about how, uh, this guy was playing all the games from other game jams.

And he was like, I went from playing a game about dogs to playing a game about dead mothers and I'm crying. Like WTF is going on. And that is still one of my favorite comments to this day. I haven't screenshotted. And actually, so today when I'm gonna give my talk, I'm gonna actually have that review up and I'm gonna read it out loud for everyone.

Yeah, that's, I mean, you mentioned inscription. That's kind of like inscription. Like people love these games where you kind of think you are expecting one thing and then they take a different turn, you know, at that point too. So yeah, and I think as gamers, they really appreciate that as well.

We kind of like to be caught off guard because there's just, there's so much familiarity with a lot of games and especially, you know, in genres where they kind of start to copy each other and things like that. And I think when we get surprised by something, we really, that really stands out to us. It's like that record skip like, wait, what? Where am I now? You know, that's awesome. Well, this has been great. Um, so I run, uh, the indie episodes we do on Wednesdays. And one thing I always try to tell everyone is, you know, a lot of these indie

devs, um, you know, wishlisting is so important and you know, what, what are some of the other ways people can, you know, go to follow and support you and help this development progress out? Yeah, so by far the biggest thing you can do is wishlist Lily's World XD on Steam. If you are interested in game development or you love horror games and want recommendations,

I make videos on my YouTube and Instagram, Sondering Emily. I also have a sub stack, Sonderingemily.substack.com and Sondering is S-O-N-D-E-R-I-N-G. We're gonna leave the link to Lily's World XD on Steam in this episode description for people so that they can go and wishlist that to try to help out. And we'll also leave a link to your Instagram and YouTube

in the episode description as well. So, Emily, this has been awesome. I mean number one thank you so much for hopping on with us to you know just kind of talk about what it is like. I mean we love these glimpses that we've been getting into the gaming industry. It is fascinating to kind of see what goes on behind the games that we all know and love and we play. I mean, we see them presented in a very specific, careful way, but a lot of times gamers don't get to see the stuff behind the scenes, you know, the, the stress and the anxiety of bugs squashing and the

ideas that, you know, came about with creating these games or, you know, the, the idea coming to fruition or like you said, somebody realizing that YouTube University is a fantastic place for a lot of people and things like that. So we love this kind of insight into the gaming world. And we're very thankful for people that are willing to come on the show and talk about it. So thank you, number one, for just giving your time on this.

We hope your talk goes incredibly. You said that's tonight? Yes. Oh, busy. You guys, we are going to be cheering for you so much. I know there's got to be some anxiety there of letting people demo this game and going, man, please like it. Yeah.

That kind of thing. So we're definitely in your corner there as well. So listen, thank you so much for joining us. That's going to do it for this episode. Everybody make sure you wishlist Lily's world XD. The link will be in the episode description for people. Once again, Emily, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, and that's it for this episode. Everybody will see you on the next one until next time. Happy gaming. See ya!