Video Gamers Podcast - The Voices Behind the Video Games - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Gaming Hosts Ryan and Josh are back and we’re heading back to the awesome world of voice acting. We’re joined by the one and only Melissa White. Melissa is an accomplished voice actress who gives us insight into the world of voice acting, what its like to work with video game studios, how voice acting differs between gaming and anime, the anxiety that comes with an audition, and what voice actors do on a day to day basis when they aren’t at the microphone recording. This episode is an awesome insight into the video game world of voice acting and packed with the video game chat you love! Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Melissa is asking for help to support those recovering from the LA Fires: https://secure.projecthope.org/site/SPageNavigator/FY25_01_Multistep_Test_LO_12872.html?autologin=true&mfc_pref=T  Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Discord: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q   Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello fellow gamers and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. We've been diving into the people behind the games we all know and love and there's nothing quite like that character on screen brought to life before our very eyes. We share their story in a way that movies just can't mimic. We are part of their story, part of their struggles, and we are there with them. A lot of times we are them and that's the beauty of gaming. But there's a gap between an on-screen character and the people that are playing them.

And that gap is bridged by the amazing men and women that voice the characters on the screen. On this episode, we're diving a bit further into the world of voice acting to get an in-depth look at the people that help bring our games to life. But first some introductions are in order. I am your host Josh and joining me, he'll never forget that one time he was sick and nailed that perfect Kratos impression.

And now he has it at the top of his resume. It's Ryan. Death can have me when it earns me. Yeah, that's not as good this time. I gotta get that frog and then it gives me the Barry White voice and then I can go from there. But it's OK. You did it once, Ryan. That's all that matters. I'll just go on that.

And joining us, she is actually a voice actor with experience in games like Dragonair, silent gods, AFK arena, fortnight, and Genshin impact. It's the incredibly talented Melissa White. Well, what an introduction. Thank you for having me. Right? I hope I can live up to that hype.

I'm here. I was hoping you were going to do Kratos there. No, I got to get sick first too. Don't try it. We need your voice for this episode. Maybe by the end of the episode. There you go. Right. Awesome. Well, Melissa, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to hop on the podcast with us. We are very excited. This is going to be a good time.

Our listeners, you know, it's one of those things where voice acting is always, it's just near and dear to gamers, man. I don't know what it is, but it's like, I have never heard a gamer talk poorly about like just the, like the whole of voice acting. I mean, sometimes I think gamers can be a little critical and say, I didn't like the voice acting in that game, but it's like as a whole, like gamers, we just, we respect it, man. And I like that.

So thank you so much for coming on here. And I did mention some of the games that you have been in, but let me just repeat those for people. Cause this is awesome, man. So Dragonair, Silent Gods, AFK Arena, a little game called, I don't know, Fortnite. I think people maybe have heard of that. And then another little kind of indie game, maybe called Genshin Impact game maybe called Genshin Impact. Uh, that, you know, only like tens of millions of people play every day. Um, so this is going to be a lot of fun. I mean, we're, we're very excited to have you getting that peek behind the curtain is

really just fun. And you know, we might ask some dumb questions along the way, but it's things that we're curious about. And it's like, if you know, I'm a kid, man, if I'm curious and Ryan's curious, and I know there's listeners out there that are going like, yeah, I've always wondered that. So, but we do like to start off with the important stuff. And that is that you are actually a gamer.

I sure am. Sup, gamers? Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Fellow game nerds, yay! And so we were chatting a little bit

before we started recording and kind of over email, and one of the things we always ask are like, hey, what are some of the favorite games that you've played lately? And I gotta say, I love your answers on this. So what are some of your favorite games that you've played lately? So I just finished playing Silent Hill 2, the remake.

That was my first experience with the series. I'd never played Silent Hill 2, the remake. That was my first experience with the series. I'd never played Silent Hill ever, any of them. Oh, so you didn't know what to expect. I had no idea. Oh, dude, I was messed up about it. That game will get you. There's a reason they remade that. So what did you think about it?

Oh, I loved it. I streamed it on Twitch, actually. And one of the weird things, the weirdest things is I would get these random people coming into my chat simping for the main guy. And I'm like, he is not one to simp for. That's very questionable behavior, but okay. But the game itself was so good. I just love the atmosphere they had. I love the soundtrack. I loved the characters, the voice acting. Speaking of voice acting, oh my gosh, it's so good. But yeah, it was really, really good. It definitely threw me for a loop. I didn't figure anything out.

That's kind of the fun part. Sometimes just going into a blind and being like, I have no idea what I'm getting into right here. And then just being like, what is what is happening? Yeah, absolutely. And then you did mention a game that I know a lot of people love, but Dead by Daylight. Yep, Dead by Daylight. I'm addicted. I play it all the time. I am bad at it, but I still continue to play it because I have an addiction. But it's, I don't know. It's just, I like that every game's different, but I like specifically streaming it because it's not, it's not story-based, so you don't have to focus so much, you can read chat and respond and, um, it's just kind of

chill like, yeah, you're getting murdered, but other than that, it's pretty chill. That's all. No biggie, you know, it's just an everyday occurrence. Chat, should I go through this door? Right. Ugh! So, I mean, you know, that's two very, very well-known and widely respected horror games.

So like, are you a fan of that genre? Is it just that like, this is kind of what you wound up playing kind of back to back or do you actually like the horror genre? I love horror and not just in games, like in all media. I'm just a big horror junkie. I just find it such a creative genre in general, like the things that some people come up with.

And I'm not talking about the like, oh, this is just like, oh, the girl like who gets killed first, the like dumb blonde personified character that's always in there. But the people who really get into these twists and the mysteries and the turns that tend to come with horror, I think they're brilliant. And so I'm a big fan in all media, like I said. Yeah. Dude, we just hopped into Outlast Trials a little bit ago.

And that was- That game's crazy. Speaking of horror. If you have not checked it out, this is actually a good game to stream as well. But if you have some friends to play with, it is one of the most bananas games that I think we've ever played. And it's called the Outlast Trials trials. OK, yeah. And it is it is great.

Like we had no we knew it was like, OK, everybody like we've heard of Outlast. We know that that's like a horror. And we got in there and this was one of those just like, what the heck is going on right now? I would probably love it. I'm sure. So thank you for the back. Definitely.

I'm not the biggest whore guy, but the jump scares are what gets me. Like I was going to say, we're both kind of chickens when it comes to whores. I'm sure that was fun though. Oh, it was. It was. It makes it a lot better. Yeah, we don't mind just screaming and again, just acting like little kids that are scared out of our minds and it makes it more fun.

We had a buddy that's very logical and he was like, I don't get this. And we're like, dude, you're such a downer, man. Like pretend to be scared. Oh man. All right. And then in our conversation with games, now this one's a little bit of a hot topic right here. So you mentioned Persona 5 Royale.

Yep. And you said it is the best Atlus game that exists. And I will die on that hill. Now, I think a lot of people would say, yeah, sure. Persona 5 Royale, it is the best game, except they released a little game that was, that's called Metaphor Rifantazio. And most people that loved Persona 5 Royale went, this is the greatest game they've ever made. Now I am going to confess that I played Persona 5 Royale

for about 15 hours. And then I just kind of went, I can appreciate this game for what it is. It's just not for me. I love turn-based combat. I like Final Fantasy games. I grew up on those. I mean, this is one of those things

where it's like it checked all the boxes boxes and I like anime on top of that. So it's like, this is, this has got to be the most perfect game. And I just kind of went, I, I get why people love it, but I don't know that I love it. So for the people and you mentioned you played metaphor, refentazio is that right? I play it about 20 hours of it. Okay. That's enough for in my mind. That's enough to say I like this game or I don't like this game. Okay. So what are your thoughts on that? Um, so I think metaphor is great, but I, the difference between metaphor and persona five, I'll say Persona 5 is a lot more intuitive and laid back.

Whereas Metaphor, you've got like a class system. It's like more, uh, more depressing undertones to the music, the characters, the themes in the game. And so like, I have depression enough on my own. And so like, I was, I boot up this game and I'm like, man, I'm even more depressed because it's just the vibe of it. Whereas Persona 5, for me, it makes you feel so empowered because you're like, yeah, let's get these rotten adults. Maybe that's me being the 12 year old boy that I am mentally.

But I, I just feel like when I play a game, I don't want to be stressed because I don't, I don't like challenging games either for the most part. Cause I'm just like, damn, you know, I could, um, life's hard enough. Yeah. Life is hard enough. I want to like, just do something fun, you know? But, uh, yeah, I'm not saying metaphor is bad. I just think I'm not the right audience for it is more the thing. Cause persona five is more, I would say targeted toward a more general audience, I would say. I get that. Yeah, that makes sense. But I think Metaphor is great. Yeah. I just, I hate all turn-based combat.

I find it so boring. So like, I don't... Everyone just like, there's going to be some upset people in our Discord, you know, about that, but I'm with you. So are you familiar with the game now? We've seen some previous. It's not out yet, but I believe it's coming out in April called Claire Obscura Expedition 33. Have you seen any trailers or anything for that? No.

Very much Final Fantasy slash like persona, like really, really over the top turn based combat, really neat looking characters. I am personally super hyped for that game. Ryan could care less because he hates turn-based combat, but he unfortunately has to play it. We have this thing where you can force somebody to play a game, and so he's being forced to play that. And I'm really hoping that this is

what changes his mind on these turn-based combat games. Good luck. It's common. So good luck. We'll see. Um, and then I, I love talking about this. So you do stream on Twitch a good bit. Um, and you know, it's one of those things where, you know, it's, it's, I think it takes our passion and our love of games and it kind of helps us spread that to the world.

I mean, we do a gaming podcast. So it's like, you know, obviously we understand. I, and again, everybody's experience is different. I used to stream on Twitch a long time ago. And for me, it was a lot of fun. I'm a super social person. I love talking to people, you know, but it was like, it almost made it feel like work at times.

So do you get that feeling? I mean, is it just the fun of talking with people that are hopping in the chat and hanging out with you or how does that affect like the whole like gaming is my hobby, but now I've turned it into work at the same time. So here's the thing. I'm a workaholic. And for me, if I don't schedule in some kind of productive gaming, like streaming on Twitch, I just won't do it, cause I'll just work. Yeah, that makes sense. I'll just do like, oh, I have voice acting

or I have a day job too, so I'll just do other stuff. And I'm like, no, I'm scheduling in my fun. I know that sounds so lame, tough to schedule in your fun, but I do. And I am very extroverted, and so I find it so fun to talk to people who come and chat. And I like entertaining people. I mean, I'm an actor, right? So it's like, I think streaming is like not too far off

because it's still that entertainment aspect, but it's still, I get to experience these stories and these games that I'm picking. And I have an excuse to do it because I feel productive. It's the millennial in me, man. Everything has to be productive. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. I mean, Ryan and I are very similar in that way,

where it's like we can't sit still. It's tough to like just sit down and do something for a few hours kind of thing. And my wife jokes because she's like, I thought you were going to play this game and I'm up every 10 minutes, you know, and she's like, and I'm like, I just can't sit down this long. I feel like I'm doing'm doing something. So yeah, I can definitely sympathize on that. So I got a burning question in my head and we got to go back to the horror game thing for a second. What is the scariest game that you have ever played?

Amnesia. The Dark Descent? Yep. Yes, dude, that is the answer. That is my number one answer. Josh is a huge advocate for amnesia. Oh, dude, that is the answer. That is my number one answer. Josh is a huge advocate for amnesia. Oh, it's so good. Every time anyone brings it up.

It's hard to explain to people. Have you played amnesia? Have you played it? You should try it out. Hey, hey, she just verified that right there. I validated you. Yes, absolutely. I tell people, look, it's a little dated.

I know the graphics are getting a little old, but if you want a game that is hands down the scariest game that I have ever experienced, Amnesia is it. I know they did a new one called The Bunker. I didn't play that one, but The Dark Descent is so good. Yeah, it's, I mean, I just think that it's the perfect example of how to make a perfect horror game,

because it has everything in it. And I just, I mean, I'm not good at puzzles, so I needed help when I was playing that. And that was before I was like Googling everything. So I was in college and my boyfriend at the time, he was playing it because he was good at puzzles. And I was like, okay, you're going to play it, but I'm going to be here because he doesn't like horror. And I was like, all right, let's like do this. And so it was just a team effort to finish that game because, oh, that's it's a rough, but it's oh my God, it's so good. And everybody should play it if they haven't. I highly recommend it.

We've convinced a few people in our community to like pick it up and play it. And I think it went on sale like really cheap for a couple of bucks, like a week or two ago. So we actually did have a few people that like jumped in and were trying it. And they were like, this game is great. I love the psychological horror. Like gore doesn't do anything for me for whatever reason. I don't know why it's just like my brain's not, you know, that doesn't,

it's not bothered by gore or some of that stuff or, you know, violence or something. But man, you give me the psychological horror. I don't know if you've ever played a game called Phasmophobia, but you're like ghost hunters looking around houses and trying to find signs of ghosts and that game will mess me up. I wanna play that too. It's really good.

It's really good. It's the suspense always, that's what gets me is that quiet suspense. And I'm always just like, it's gonna happen. I know something's gonna kill me or eat me or jump and attack me. And it just, oh my gosh, once it happens inevitably, pee my pants a little, spray my girl.

Yeah, the gore is like whatever. I feel like as a society, because we're so, we're always on information overload and we see all these graphic images in our daily lives, it doesn't really hit the same as like, you're not usually in a psychological horror state, you know what I mean? So that's what gets me to an

amnesia has so much of that. Like you literally have a sanity state. That game was just a masterclass in how to slowly mess with somebody's mind and then get the payoffs of like, Oh no. And then like really just mess. I loved it. Yeah. I love the games that can do that and really mess with your head at the same time. So great choice. I'm so glad you said that. Good. I've been telling people that for a long time. So awesome. Well, I'll tell you what, we're going to move into some of the, uh, the questions that we have about what it's like to actually be a voice actor,

but we're going to take a short break before we do that. And we'll come right back and dive into that. All right. We are back with Melissa white Melissa. Thanks for hanging out with us here. This is where we get the peak behind the curtain. We get to learn a lot more about what it is that you do. And you know, I kind of said this earlier, but I do think that as gamers,

we tend to glorify the role of a voice actor. I think, you know, we think, oh man, that would just be the coolest thing to be this character in this game, you know? And I think that we generally don't think about a lot of the struggles that go along with that. And hey, this is a job and it is competitive and it's tough to get into this career and things like that. And so, you know, I'd love to just kind of get a little bit more information about like the reality of the job, you know, and

it's one of those things where it's like, it is a position in entertainment. You know, that's kind of what we do, right? Is we're a podcast, like we have to entertain people and you know, it's like, it is a position in entertainment. That's kind of what we do, right? Is we're a podcast. We have to entertain people. And it's kind of the same thing where it's like, there's a kajillion podcasts in the world. And standing out as a podcast is tough to do. And I feel, and I could be wrong, but I feel like in the world of being a voice actor,

that standing out and getting that traction is often the hardest part, you know? And so that's, let's dive into that just a little bit. So like, you know, somebody that's breaking into that field or trying to break into that field, like what's the first step for them? Well, I guess before standing out comes training because you don't want to stand out for the wrong reasons, right? You haven't trained, it's like, oh, they should go take a class probably.

So I'd say take classes first is always the first step. Get coached by people you admire. Always vet your coaches though because there are some people who just want to get your money like in any industry. So always make sure you're working with someone reputable. But I would say doing that, honing your skills and also getting practice with auditions, because auditioning is most of the job of a voice actor.

I audition way more than I book and that's the case for all of us. So I get to voice these cool characters, right? But most of the time I'm just like in my booth saying something about some kind of corporate training or something, like not the exciting stuff, right? So yeah, I will always vouch for training first. And then once you have that experience of learning

and you feel more comfortable, then you can start putting your work out there, like posting samples of your work. Getting a demo reel is a big step once you're ready for that, because that's what you send off to agents and people that you market to, like ad agencies, production companies, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really just honing your skills. If you like social media, do that, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, it's really just honing your skills.

If you like social media, do that. That's what I do. Um, I've fallen off a little bit because, oh my gosh, social media has become a nightmare. It's so hard. Like I, I'll be honest, like, you know, I'm a little bit older, you know, I, I rebelled against social media for a long time and then I finally went, okay. And, you know, like I said, as a podcast, you know,

we are also trying to get in front of people and exposure is kind of everything and that sort of thing. And it's just like, social media is such a grind to like try to keep up and try to make it interesting and all this stuff. And so I just, sometimes it's like, following trends. Josh was the the best at his TikTok dances. That was probably the issue. You know, if you can be stupid, that's entertaining for people, right?

Well, we're good at that, that's for sure. Also, I'm the world's worst dancer. Oh man. So is the field like, I mean, it's one of those things where I think we think that it's like super competitive and with competition kind of comes the the side eye kind of thing where it's like, you know, like, ah, you know, you're not as good as me. I'm better than you and that kind of thing. And so is there,

you know, what is that competition like? And is there like, I guess, does it manifest like a dude, like, you know, it's one of those things where I don't like when people are like fake nice to each other. Like I honestly, we see this a lot on Twitch and I'm just going to call it out because we're honest about things, right? There are a lot of Twitch streamers out there that are going like, Oh, I love my fellow Twitch streamers. Like, you know, let's support this person. Let's do that. But if they're watching that person, they're not watching you at the same time. You know? Yeah. Yes. And so it's like, I think there's this fake niceness that exists in like a lot of entertainment media. And

so is voice acting like that? Like what's the competition like? And is there a little bit of that side eye with each other from time to time. Um, yeah, it's, it's a very competitive field. I think like any creative field. Um, but I, I will say, I think overall the community is pretty nice. They are pretty, uh, they cheer each other on. I do think there's some of that fake niceness. That's always the case with social media, right?

You can't just be like, I can't believe that you got this and not me. Cause then you look like that. Sorry. Yeah. You look like that. Sorry. Yeah. You look like a jerk, right? So you have to be mindful of your appearance online too, but I think for me, I genuinely get

a lot out of cheering other people on because I have the mindset that the roles that are met for me are going to come to me. If they're not meant for me, my friend's going to get them. You know what I mean? So it's about the mindset that are meant for me are gonna come to me. If they're not meant for me, my friend's gonna get them. You know what I mean? So it's about the mindset that you have. I do think it's, you know, it's hard. I do wanna say jealousy is a normal human emotion.

I don't think we should demonize it. No, I agree with you, absolutely. It's normal. If somebody gets a role you wanted, you're not just gonna be like, oh my gosh, everything's great. You know, you wanted that role, right? And I think it's important to acknowledge that because we do live in this society

where you're told that you can't feel negative emotions a lot of the time. And it's like, all right, well, we all feel it. So either we can be fake or just be open about it and, you know, accept it. And it's how you process it that matters. So if you get jealous, don't leave a mean comment, just be like, okay, like, let me sit with that for a second and then maybe congratulate them. Because at the end of the day,

they booked it and they earned it, you know? So it's just about the attitude and the mindset that you have, but yes, it is competitive. And it does get to all of us sometimes. I like that point of taking that and finding out a way to, to, to make it better. So then you do land the next one.

You know, I did a lot of martial arts and anytime I would, uh, you know, get submitted or something would happen. I'm like, okay, why did that happen? How do I make sure it doesn't happen again? You know, I'm sure it's the same in a lot of these other fields. So yeah, it's cool. It's definitely, I mean, Josh and I were both big optimists and supportive people. And so, you know, we like to gas people up too.

So that's that's cool to hear that it's not as cutthroat as some people would think. Yeah, I fully I really am the kind of person where I want people that meet me to leave feeling better, you know, but I think you touched on it perfectly. Like there are these natural emotions that we have. And to deny that this is a normal response to something I think is not doing people justice. You know, and like you said, jealousy, I think we can say, hey, you shouldn't be jealous,

but jealousy is a natural emotion for people, you know? And like you said, it's kind of how you handle that, that matters. It's not the what's wrong with me because I'm jealous. It's like, dude, that's a natural feeling. It's okay to feel that way. Maybe you don't go out and yell at that person and you say, hey, congratulations kind of thing.

And then you just yell to yourself maybe. And you'll get the next one. That's what I always tell myself. I'll get the next one. And I think, Ryan, it's like you think about what could I do better? I always like to go back and listen to people's performances because then I'm think, Ryan, it's like, you think about, what could I do better? I always like to go back and listen to people's performances because then I'm like, okay, this is what they were looking for. And I can take a mental note that, oh, my next audition, I should do something like this because this is what's booking right now. So yeah, it's like just

taking, putting a positive spin on things. So I wanted to, we talked to another voice actor and I asked him this and this, I really love this question. So speaking on that with your auditions and stuff, do you have specific characters that you always try to draw upon as a voice, like a bag of characters, or do you come up with one on the spot,

or how does that work? So the voice I use the most is the one that you're hearing right now. Oh, okay. So I- Well, that makes it easy. Yeah. Well, and you know, it depends on the actor, right? A lot of voice actors use their natural voice a lot.

Some of them are more vocal chameleons and they do a lot of different voices and they do have that bag that they pull from. For me, I look at the character, I look at the description and I think, okay, or not the character even if the commercial's like, we want like warm, motherly, nurture, you know, or like peppy and energetic and like Gen Z and whatever. So you just look at that and then you pull from that. But I will say my characters are almost always

just slight variations of my natural voice, unless I'm voicing a little boy or something, because I don't sound like a little boy for the most part. No, you don't. So it just depends, but for me, I'm more of a voice actor that I just, I use the voice that my mama gave me. You know?

That is cool. I was listening to some of your demo stuff on your website and everything, and it was, there was the one that was the high energetic peppy one, and then it's like, oh, nice and smooth and warm warm and it's like, it's so cool to see the fluctuation in that and the change you can make just, you know, still using your natural voice. Yeah and I think like, part of it is what's been ingrained with me. One of my first classes that I ever took was your natural voice is your biggest moneymaker.

So I've always kept that in mind and it's been true for me, cause when I try to do a weird voice for me, it doesn't sound authentic. And so I don't book it because there's somebody who's going to do that better than me because they just sound like that. So if it's like an animated character or something, then yeah, then we like turn on the crazy voices.

But for the most part, I'm not going to like be down here trying to be like deep voiced mommy voice, you know, cause that's just not what I sound like and somebody does. So I just, cause that's just not what I sound like. And somebody dies. So I just, it's about finding your niche. That's like a big part of this industry is figuring out where you specifically fit. Awesome.

That's really interesting. Cause it's like, I think, and again, you know, as gamers not knowing, and that's kind of the whole point of this episode is to know a little bit. And it's funny because in my head, and maybe I'm just an idiot, but it's like, I'm no voice actor, but there are many a time I've been in the car or the shower and I'm being stupid.

And it's like, I'm coming up with voices. I'm like, it's really time I get where I can nail this English accent. I'm going to talk like, and then before I know it, it's like this terrible English accent has evolved into a really terrible Australian accent at that point. And then I can't do it. I don't know why, but it's like, so how do you, and maybe that's the answer is

like, how do you kind of like lock in, you know, is it just that it is close to your natural voice? Because I feel like if I was trying to do a voice or a character, I would just be like, wait, wait, I feel like I was talking different yesterday when I was trying to do this. So how do you reinforce that? A lot of actors, myself included,

will have lead-in lines that we use to get ourselves into character. I'm going to bring up Erika Lindbeck, because we were just talking about Persona 5. But I know she voices Futaba, and I know she'd be like, my mom, she... because Futaba has mommy issues, and so she'd always like start talking about her mom to get back into the voice. So that's what I do for my characters too. I'm like, what's a line that really describes this character

well so I can get back into the mindset and the voice. Because yeah, it's the same way. And also, your voice does sound different every day. Like from day to day, it doesn't sound exactly the same. So it's like, there's going to be slight variations. Like if I have 10 sessions for a character, it's not going to sound exactly the same in every session, but it's about getting as close as you can to that sound, but not beating yourself up if you don't, because it's like, ah, well, nobody's going to be listening that closely if they do back up. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. These are still voices. Yeah. Like Ryan's Kratos voice he had that one time. He's been searching for that ever since. You don't understand. I'm going to just carry around vials of sickness, viruses, just to give it to myself so I can do it again

Ryan's and his villain era So let's talk like I think the audition stuff is fascinating to be honest because it's like this is this is like I think the Nerve-wracking part of the job, but also the part that leads to actual roles at the same time. So, you know, in my mind, and again, probably not the accurate representation, but I think a lot of people think like me, is that it is you go to a studio, you know, and there's 15 people sitting in a waiting room, you know, and they're like, all right, Melissa, you're up. And you go into, you know, a studio or in front of people and you read the lines that they have you read and you try to make the best impression that you can. But then I also see like you have your own recording studio.

And so is it, is, is it a little bit of both? Is it no, like 90% of this is me recording lines in my private studio. And then I just mailed them off to people or how, so what is the actual audition process like? Every single audition I've done has been from my private studio and then I just mail them off to people or how. So what is the actual audition process? Like every single audition I've done has been from my home studio, but I will say some of them you audition and they want you to do the job in studio in person. Okay. So I have worked in studio, but it's after I booked the job for auditions. I mean,

I've seen it every now and then where they're like, okay, callbacks are gonna be at this studio in LA or whatever, but it's just not very efficient for casting directors because I do casting myself and I wouldn't want all these talent coming in and like reading for me. I just wanna lock in and listen to the auditions back to back to back to back like on my own time,

you know, at my own pace. I don't, I take little notes, but I can re-listen, you know, I just feel like it makes it more complicated because you are recording probably the auditions in the studio, but it's like, just send me your files, I'll listen. And then it just, it's easier. It's easier for everybody. I feel like, so I mean I I've maybe seen one audition that was like go in studio For voice acting anyway. Yeah, that's really neat. So it's a technology we have today You know, it's why not utilize it, you know and save everybody to travel. Yeah Now how many takes does it take? That's the other question like somebody here's an audition Here's the lines we want you to read like I have a little bit of like a perfectionist brain

and it's, you know, that's good in some ways, but not so good in others when it's like, you can't quite get it that hundred percent. And you kind of just have to go, okay, 99% is good enough or I'm going to drive myself crazy. So is that like one of those things where it's like, do you drive yourself crazy going like, this is good. I don't need to do this for like a 20th take.

Yeah, I am. I started out like that because I am a perfectionist, recovering perfectionist. I like to call it. I'm doing my best. Okay. But that's the problem. I'm doing my best. I need to do less. But anyway, so I definitely started out thinking in that perfectionist mindset. But the thing is now I do so many auditions that if I did it like that, it would take me all day and all night to get them done.

And so I've just had to accept, I've had to start trusting myself, trusting my instinct and my gut. It's tough to do, but it's good to do. Because here's the thing, and what I noticed is if you keep saying the same line over and over and over again, it starts to sound fake because it's not authentic anymore. Cause it's like, Oh, this sounds rehearsed. And I know that because I, when I started out, I was in this, uh, taking this agent workshop, I was trying to get representation and I had beat this script to death, man.

Like I rehearsed way too much to the point where I get in front of the agent. He's like, this sounds rehearsed. And I'm like, so I was like, I'm never doing that ever again. I'm trusting myself. I'm just doing it. So yeah, it's, I think it's something you learn over time. You're just, you just accept it. And I also know that sometimes casting, not me, not me,

but some casting directors will turn it off within the first two seconds. So it's like, why are you spending all this time if they're, one, not going to listen to it or turn it off in two seconds? Like, just have fun with it. That's the main thing. Have fun and send it off and forget about it.

We did, Josh, Josh will laugh at this. We were doing a read for something for the something for, um, for the pod. It was an intro. For an intro. We were trying to record, which we don't normally do like a pre-recorded. It should have took five minutes. And we were there for like an hour because for whatever reason, I have an eight year old son, he's always on YouTube watching all these, uh, YouTube people, you know, and I could not stop saying hit like and subscribe with the discord. not stop saying hit like and subscribe with the discord. And it was just, it was permanently in my brain. It was just stuck there and I could not get it out.

And we were cracking up so hard and we just couldn't get past it. And it was, oh my gosh, it was so funny. So I bombed, I bombed that audition. But to be fair, part of that is we are both like kind of seat of our pants kind of people. Like we don't prep a whole lot on things. I mean, and so Ryan was having a hard enough time. So I kind of wrote out what he needed to say. And I think that was the issue is he would have been fine if he just said what was

on his mind. But it was like, we actually had to hit some touch points and it's like, well, now I've got a script. This sucks. I'm not good at reading off a script. Yep, yep. That's so. Oh, it was good. That's funny. So as far as being voice actors, all of us, we've touched on multiple times. We love the thought of voicing a character in a game, someone you can interact with and see, and be like, hey, that's my voice. What would be a dream casting role for a voice actor, like a professional

such as yourself, like what are you going to aspire to, you know, that's the role that I would just love to hit or the one I want. I mean, I know Josh doesn't like persona, but I want to be in persona so bad. Like, I just want to be one of the main cast members in a Persona game. Honestly, even if I was the dude selling bread and I, yeah, dude, whatever, like literally anybody in Persona, just in that series in general, because that's my biggest inspiration is Persona 5.

Like that's what really I try to pull from. Those are my, I don't know, like dream performances, I guess, because I think they're so good. But yeah, I would say any role in the persona series, but main character would be great. See, I love that because it ties into the, if you like a game, if you are passionate about a game in general, like that just makes it even more fun, right? Like, you know, there's like, yeah, I could see it's like, Oh, awesome. I booked a job, but this is a game that I don't want to play. I would never play.

I would never be interested in. And I kind of get that. Like it would add a lot to be in like a passion project, so to speak. Like it's like, I like, not only do I get to do this, but I get to get paid to do it too. Like, yes. Well, that's actually interesting. So like you said, you did some casting stuff. Do you guys or casting directors take that into account?

Anyone's ties to a game or a love of a game if they're passionate about it, like when casting roles? Or it's just like, this is the voice, this is the sound we want, this is what we're going with. I would say what I like to do is if somebody's in the top three choices, then I go on their social media. So it's like, unless you're already in my top three, I'm not really looking at like stuff you've posted or anything that...

Unless I know you as a person, right? And I've seen you talk about it. But so I guess sort of if you're already a top choice, but for the most part, it's like, I think casting has an idea of what they're looking for. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I, I wish I would, if I knew everybody, I wish I knew what everybody send me a list of all of your like dream roles and then I'll see if you fit. Sorry, Josh, you're not going to be able to be in the next God of War. Oh, I'm too squeaky. I've come to accept this man. I'm an old man with a very squeaky, high-pitched, excitable voice. Oh, you could see. Look, he's even got, I don't know if you can see him, Melissa, he's got the Blades of Chaos in the background there.

Oh, nice. No, yeah, I'd like that deep voice, but I, you know, know yourself, right? I really, I don't have a deep voice, but I'm like, every time I listen to women with deep voices, I'm like, oh my God, why don't I sound like that? Cause I just can't. I'm like, my squeaky voice, you know, I'm like, all right, cool, I'll be the little kid again. Yeah, I just, excitement, I think that's like my voice.

My voice is just the overly excited about everything kind of voice. So I love this because I actually saw a reel that you did and this I think touches home a lot and I mean even for You know people I mean we've been doing this podcast for almost five years now and you know, I love this So I kind of want to dive into this a little bit, but you did kind of talk about Like the imposter syndrome or the anxiety that kind of want to dive into this a little bit. But you did kind of talk about like the imposter syndrome or the anxiety that kind of goes with what you do. I mean, any time somebody has to perform,

I think, again, as gamers, and I think that this is a big misconception is that, oh, this is easy. You get to voice a character in a video game. Like, that's the easiest thing in the world. How awesome is that? And then I don't think that a lot of people understand that number one, it is performing, you know, and that comes with a very high expectation

that you're going to do it at a high level. And, you know, at the same time, it's like, you know, you go through so much to book a role and then you book that role. And I can only imagine the anxiety that comes with the, Oh, please don't let me mess this up. So what is that like? I mean, you know, if you book a role and you're recording in your studio at home, I think a lot of people would be like, well, what's the big deal? But I

know it's not like that. So what is that like pressure and that kind of anxiety like, and how do you deal with that? Yeah. So I think imposter syndrome happens to all of us. I'll just say that even, Oh, absolutely. Even people at the top still deal with it, right? Everybody's got a little bit going on. Um, but I'll just say like, what I always tell myself, when I book something, they picked me for a reason and I don't care like how big the project is. I'm there because I'm qualified to be there I'm more than capable of getting this job done So I just I tell myself that and and sometimes I'll all like freak out before my session But then I'll get in the session. I'll be totally fine. Because most voice directors are incredible.

They're amazing. They make you feel so comfortable. They're reassuring. And it's just like, it's more of a collaborative effort. Like you're there to make art. You're not there for perfection. You're not there to be criticized because it's just a team effort. And I think a lot of people do think of direction as like critique.

Whereas it's more, no, we're just working together to get the best product. Because it's never like, wow, you suck. It's, oh, try it this way. So, I mean, sometimes it's, wow, you suck if you have a bad director, but that's very rarely the case. So yeah, this is horrible. Yeah, exactly. But no, that doesn't happen often.

But I would just say, I always tell myself that I earned it. You know, I have trained for a long time. I've practiced for a long time to get to this point and I belong here as much as anybody else does. So, yeah, you just have to keep hyping yourself up. Keep saying your affirmations. I do that every morning because it's hard. You know, it's just like, man, you go through these periods. One thing about voice acting too,

not to ramble too much, but one thing is you sometimes you'll have these like, you're booking a lot over and over and over again for a month. You book so many things. You can't keep up. You're so busy. And then for the next like two months, you don't book a single thing. And that's when it starts to hit, like, oh my gosh, is my career over? And you have to reassure yourself. Yeah, it's the dry spells. It happens to everybody, but it doesn't say anything about you. It's just like, what's in season? Who's booking right now? And you just have to keep going. Keep going is the most important thing. Yeah. Just keep swimming.

Just keep swimming. Yeah, I'll go through that too. I'm self-employed and a lot of times my work will have weird ups and downs and I'll have more work than I can, you know, throw, throw five guys at and then I'll have nothing. And I'm like, this is the end. It's all over now. So it's normal. Yeah, it is normal, every industry.

Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine. I mean, and again, I think that's one of the things that people don't think about is it's, life is great when you're booking things and you're kind of building your resume and your reels and things like that. And it's like, okay, this is awesome.

You know, I would imagine that word gets out that it's like, Hey, this person's really good. They're easy to work with. And so there's that whole like building your reputation, you know, along with everything else there. Um, I guess that brings up a good question though. Like, is it, do you ever have to work with like really difficult people? Like is there the, Oh, if this guy asks me to change this one more time, I'm going to scream like, you know, you don't have to name names, but it's just like, there's gotta be, you are working with people and anytime you're working with people, there's gotta be a little bit of that like conflict or just stress about not everybody gets along. Yeah, of course. I mean, in any job, right?

But I will say one of the trends I've noticed is the projects that pay less than they should, usually those clients are more difficult and it's like, go figure, right? Because they're not seeing your worth as an actor. And so they're like, your worth as an actor. And so they're like, oh, well, we can get perfection for $50. Like ridiculous.

And then like on the flip side, I'm sure you've heard there's plenty of divas in the creative industry. Yep. Actors can have big egos. And so I've even had clients tell me, thank you for being so easy to work with. I was just working with this guy. I'll never work with him again, but he was just so, just difficult in every way.

Just like everything has to be so, so, and you have to pay me extra for X, Y, Z. And I'm like, why? So yeah, it's like- You worked hard to get here. Why be like that once you're there? Yeah, and then get kicked out because he was like, I'm taking him off my roster.

And I was like, I don't blame you. If people are not easy to work with, that's why I always tell people, I don't care how talented you are. If you're easy to work with, that's going to take you way further than any level of talent where you're like a jerk. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. There's too many people that want to do what you're doing for somebody to be a jerk about it.

And then be like, there are 10 people that would love to be in this position. And I just, I don't understand that. It's not our nature to just be mean to people for no reason. I can't actually fathom why people are that way. I know it. I mean, I've dealt with people like that, but it's just like, I just look at them. I'm like, why, why, why are you like this? Why are you mad bro? Who are you? Oh man. So, um, you know, I think the other, the other thing is the, the, the big question is when we think about voice acting, I think we generally tend to think of two things, right? And it's funny because you mentioned very early on that a lot of it is just like for business aspects, you know, where it's like,

hey, corporations need people to narrate their video that they're making or something like that. And I think again, as gamers from that gamer mindset, we go voice actor equals gaming or equals anime. And that's it, you know? And I think that people forget that there are voiceovers for commercials. And every car commercial in the world has a voiceover.

And that's a voice actor that's doing that. So is there a difference from your personal experience? Is there a difference between doing, say, a business voiceover, a gaming voiceover, or, a business voiceover, a gaming voiceover, like an anime voiceover? Like, are they kind of all the same really because it's still you using your voice, you know, to do this? Or is there a vast difference in those?

They're very different because they're all different styles. So a lot of video games, the trend nowadays for the most part is they want very grounded, real performances. So just real human beings in a game. Whereas anime is way up here and we're being really like crazy and not only that you're matching mouth flaps because you're dubbing. So it's more like of a specialized skill in that sense. Whereas corporate it's like, we just want to try

not to put these people to sleep, but we still have to be like educational. Which every corporate video does. Yes. They're like, be enthusiastic. And I'm like, nobody's enthusiastic about this, but I'll do my best. So yeah, they're all very different. I would say they're all specialized skill sets. There's a lot of like, in video games, you have to protect your voice more because there's a lot of like guttural screaming and stuff like

that. So, but you're not doing that in the commercials. If you are, they're probably not going to air because no one's going to hear that on TV. We really had this nailed until the death scream, buy this car now. Right, exactly. And then like, I will say too, audiobooks are crazy. I just want to put some respect on audiobook narrators. If any of audiobook narrators are listening to this right now. Ray Porter.

First of all, I love y'all. And second of all, these people are voicing every character most of the time, every single character in a novel, they're voicing them and they have to distinguish them and make them, you know, their own unique character with just their voice. And so I just want to say, I just don't see a lot of respect for audiobook narrators. And I'm a little biased because I've voiced some audiobooks, but they're so hard.

And I see all the, oh yeah, voice actors only do anime and video games. And I'm like, please put some respect on audiobooks because they're hard. I think that is fantastic. I have never thought of that. Ryan I know is a huge audiobook guy. It goes kind of hand in hand with his job and stuff like that. I've literally never listened to an audiobook in my life. I love just actually reading. And so I just read the books, but I do the voices in my head when I'm reading different characters and stuff. But I mean, kudos because I never thought of it. And you are right. These people, not only that you have to read an entire book out loud. Do you know how hard that is? With enthusiasm and yeah, I know I definitely I'm a huge, I plug in, I probably listen to eight or more hours a day.

Most days during the week with audiobooks. I got thousands of hours in and I mean I'll listen to series and it's awesome because they'll have 18, 19 books but you think this one guy is voicing 20 different characters which is just crazy and then when you're listening you get into that world and you lose track of that and you don't even recognize it which is just wild. So I'm 100% with you on that. Yeah, audiobook voice actors are just, that's a whole different level. It's something else. Yeah. Yeah. I wish people would be fans of audiobooks. You know what I mean? I'm like, come on, get their autographs. They're so cool. Voicing these whole books and being all these characters. I just, I find, I mean, I'm an amateur when

it comes to them, but I just know so many people just pop them out like they're nothing and I'm like, I don't know how you do that. So yeah, they're all- That's awesome. That was my little tangent. No, I learned something today. And then I kind of went, oh, I totally have not even been thinking about that. So-

Yeah. And I'll specifically search out audio books from narrators that I love, that I've that's true. No way. And I'll specifically search out audiobooks from narrators that I love that I've grown to love. So yeah, I definitely, I totally understand what you're saying because I'm, yeah, I'm a big audiobook guy. So that's yeah. Nice. I'm glad you respect them. I do now. I do now. All right. Well, listen, we're starting to run a little low on time here. One of the things most of that I did want to bring up is when we were All right, well, listen, we're starting to run a little low on time here. One of the things most of that I did want to bring up is when we were chatting beforehand that you mentioned that you are participating in and advocating for Project HOPE.

And so can you tell us a little bit more about what Project HOPE is and what they do? Yeah, absolutely. So they do many things, but the main thing that they're doing right now is they are on the ground in LA helping people who have been affected by the wildfires that just happened recently and are still very much happening. So they're providing supplies, they're providing mental health care, they're just being there for people who have been displaced, the many, many people who have lost their homes and really everything that they have.

So they're a great organization. They're definitely helping so much for these people who are just, I couldn't imagine losing my home or my animals or anything. So yeah, they're great or anything, you know, so Yeah, they're great. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, um, it's it's crazy What's happened over there, but they have so many people are doing so much good work over there But what we want to do and we'll also will anyone that is interested to help we'll put the link in the description for all This you can go over there and donate for the cause But on behalf of the video gamers podcast what we're gonna do is we're gonna donate $1,000

towards that and try to help these people and these animals out there. Oh wow, thank you so much. I didn't know you guys had it like that. Yeah. Thank you for doing that. Just crippling dead, you know. It's no big deal.

Just crippling. Just what, you know. Donate what we don't have. No, but seriously, thank you for doing that. That's incredible. Thank you for caring and for being compassionate. No, this is honestly one of the ways that we like to say thank you for people that get involved

in things like this, because it's one of the reasons that we ask people, like, hey, what's something that is important to you? And we love the responses to that. And it's like, it's one of those things where we love putting it in front of our listeners. And at the same time, just kind of modeling that and saying, Hey, we appreciate you coming on the show. We appreciate you advocating for that. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's fun to be able to do that. And, you know, we hope that that kind of inspires other people to do that as well.

So we'll follow up with you after recording and just kind of take care of that part of things for you. And then the other thing, now this is near and dear to my heart especially, I know Ryan is absolutely an animal lover as well. But one of the things that you mentioned is you just have this love of animals and advocating for animal rights,

which I think is awesome. I mentioned that I went to college for veterinary medicine. I worked for vets for many years. I was a marine biologist for several years. Animals are my jam. I love them. And so like, you know, expand on that a little bit for us. Like what is it that you, you do or why is this near and dear to your heart? So it's funny because my dream job when I was like six years old, first dream job, veterinarian, then I realized I would have to operate on them.

And I was like, no, can't do it. Nope. Yep, that's not going to happen. So I've always loved animals. And I ended up going vegetarian at 11. And I was that annoying kid who was giving speeches about why you shouldn't eat meat and all this stuff.

Um, and I continued that way until I got even more annoying and I became vegan and I've been vegan for 10 years now. And so, yeah, so it's, it's been almost. I don't, I don't want to, I don't want people doing the math on my age, but it's been a long time. So yeah, I, um, you. So yeah, before I got into voice acting, I worked

for an animal rights organization and I helped a lot of particularly young people who were trying to make a difference for animals, whether that was organizing protests in their area or, um, you know, eating even less meat, you know, whatever the case may be for them. Uh, so I did that for five years. I still attend protests. I like to, um, speak up, use my, uh, my free speech rights that hopefully I'll continue to have. Um, but yeah, I, I just, I like to do my best to make a difference

and, um, do all, I, I just, I like to do my best to make a difference and, um, do all that I can, if I, if I could, I would have 10,000 animals that I, that I took care of, you know, but I don't, I don't have it like that. So I don't, you know, I don't have a sanctuary or anything, but, um, I just, I think it's really important to speak up for animals because they, they don't speak our language, right? I don't like saying that they're voiceless. They have voices we just can't listen in the way that we need to.

But I just think there's a lot of injustices happening to animals around the world. And there's stuff that I can do to help. And so I do it. And I like to spread the word and have people maybe not be full blown vegans like me. I know that's like to spread the word and have people maybe not be full blown vegans like me. I know that's a big ask for a lot of people, but you know, maybe we do meatless Mondays or something like that. Just like little,

little things count, you know? So I just encourage people to do what they can within their means to make a difference. Yeah. I love that. I think that we take, a lot of people take for granted that we have that right to do that. We have the voice to do that. And our country specifically, it gives us that ability to say, Hey, this is what I believe in. And I'm allowed to say that, you know? And I do think it's one of those things where social media is, is not good for this because if you voice an opinion on something, you're instantly going to get the people that voice the opposite opinion.

And then it's like, I think that there's definitely a space for conversation for people that differ on things. But unfortunately it seems like social media has just, no, there's no conversation on the internet. You're on opposite sides and I hate you now. If you like vegetables, I don't like you. I put it in my, my bio so that people leave me alone because I don't want to attract those people.

Because I don't know, I just, I think what I've seen even more than the arguing is this like mob mentality, echo chambers, because I mean, you're being shown specific things. There's an algorithm you're being shown specific things. There's an algorithm you're being shown. And so it's like, you're just falling to this place of honestly ignorance, because you need to know the full picture to have a proper opinion on things. And a lot of times people are like, Oh, I saw this very one-sided thing on Twitter. And I'm like, cool, but you need to learn about the other side before you can pick a side, so to speak.

Yeah. No, I think it's very, I think it's very important. And I, again, the sounding like an old man, I think it's something that's lost on like younger generations is that ability to just be like, why do you think that way? It's something like we, we're very specific and I mean, gaming oriented, we see it, you know, kind of all over the place. But if I say, I don't like persona five Royale, then somebody will absolutely be like, you have trash taste or something like that instead of like, it might be

true. It might be true. But it's one of those things where we have always advocated it is okay to have an opinion on something. It's not okay to insult people for the opinions that they have. And so I love that. All right. Well, that does bring up one very important question. And then that is what animal would you choose to be if you could choose to be an animal? Oh my gosh.

Something very far away from humans. Hold on. I'm trying to think. Oh my God. One of those like, what are they called? The like really scary fish, like deep in the sea. Oh, the angler fish? Yes, I want to meet them.

So like with the light on their head. Did you see the video today where they have one that's coming up to the surface? They said it's like the first time they've ever seen. It was all over the internet. I didn't know they could survive. Yeah, so after this, after this, check it out. But there's footage of a deep sea

anglerfish and it looks like something out of a nightmare and it is flow. It's going right up to the surface of the water and people are like, this is the first time we've ever seen this. And it's like, yeah, that's a monster. Yeah. That's what I want to be. I want to be a nightmare. This is on brand with her video games is she just wants to be scary. This is on brand with her video games is she just wants to be scary. I wanna be the horror. I don't want humans to be able to touch me. You know what I mean? Because humans ruin everything they touch. That's me being pessimistic and negative. Bottom of the ocean, people leave you alone.

They're not going down there unless they're going on that Titanic thing. You can shine bright if you want to. Right. I'd be Bigfoot cause nobody could find me. Oh, there you go. Perfect. I like that one too. I'm too social.

I like people too much or being around people anyway. Yeah, if you were Bigfoot, what's up guys? Hey, everybody would run. But as an animal though, I feel like animals get disrespected by humans a lot. That's why I'm like, absolutely. That's why I'm like, I don't want to be around people. I like people now for the, I like talking to people, but.

Dolphin is my choice. I'm biased. I worked with dolphins for a while, but they are, I tell people this and humans are very egotistical. So it's hard for them to believe, but it's like dolphins are actually smarter than humans are. And then people are like, no, that's not true. And it's like, they may not have thumbs, but believe me when I say they are actually more intelligent than we are. I don't find humans very intelligent for the most part, so I believe you. We're like actively killing ourselves with this AI stuff. I won't get into it, but you know, I'm just like, oh, are we that smart? Judgment day is coming. Oh boy. Well, Melissa, this has been absolutely a blast

to have you on. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us and hanging out with a couple nerds talking video games and giving us a look into what voice actors actually do, the things that you go through, the challenges that you face, the joys that you have at the same time. But yeah, really just thank you from Ryan and myself

and all of our listeners for taking time to join us on this. We have gotten some a lot of questions from them. And just like we love this insight that we're getting into the kind of behind the curtains part of gaming and how all of that is done. So it's really been awesome to have you on. Thank you for being a good sport. It's you know, you're super fun to talk to as well, which is great.

Yay. All right. Thank you for having me. I'm like, what if you were like, you're super boring to talk to, too? So we're glad we're ending this episode. No, thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. And hey, maybe we can have you back on one day.

We'll talk about a horror game or something, too. There you go. Or maybe we'll show you the Outlast Trials We'll, we'll, we'll talk about a horror game or something too. You know, we'll, uh, maybe we'll show you the outlast trials. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I would love to. That game's crazy, man. So, all right.

Well, listen, everybody that does it for this episode. Thank you for hanging out with us. Thank you again, Melissa, for joining us on this one. If you enjoyed this episode and you haven't done so already, make sure you follow the podcast, hit that follow button, hit that plus button, join our community. We have the best gaming community on the planet. The link is in the episode description and also make sure you look for that link for project hope in the episode description as well so that you can take a look at that and

hopefully join that, uh, with us also. That's it for this episode. Until next time, happy gaming. See ya. ["Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"]