Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Al Murray

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

Emily goes out for a stroll with comic Al Murray and brings along her Shih-Tzu Raymond. Al tells Emily about his childhood labradors, his family and his famous literary ancestor. He discusses his days at boarding school, his hatred of confrontation and his start in comedy.  They also chat about his famous alter ego the Pub Landlord and forthcoming tour, Landlord Of Hope and Glory (for tickets go to thepublandlord.com). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It strikes me if you look at our Wikipedia page. We are a downwardly mobile family. Because it starts off with there's some dukes in there somewhere and now I'm a comedian. This week on Walking the Dog, I went out for a stroll with the fabulous Al Murray. He's a comic, a history buff, and a descendant of William Makepeace Zachary.

And he's also the most famous pub landlord in the country. Al grew up with Labrador's, so I got him to try out the joys of the smaller dog with my tiny Shih Tzu Raymond. I had such a lovely time with Al. He's quite a thoughtful and gentle guy when he's out for that maroon blazer. We wandered around the grounds of Chiswick House,

and Al told me about boarding school and how he thinks it affected him in later life, why he likes playing a character as a comic, and also why he's absolutely terrified of confrontation. You can catch Al's 2019 UK tour, which is called Landlord of Hope and Glory, from May onwards. Tickets are available by the way at the pub landlord.com and also Al's a drummer in a band. I know, there's no end to his talents.

It's called Fat Cops and they're brilliant, so have a listen. You can check them out on their website, which is fatcops.co.com.com.com.com. UK, if you want to order a copy. Enough of me. Here's Al. We're going to get loads of planes. Come on, Ray. Now, do you want me to take Ray? Oh, I'll stop. No, I'm happy to. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to introduce the podcast officially.

This is Walking the Dog. I'm Emily Dean and I'm so thrilled to be with Al Murray, who's got a very long name. I'm going to try and go for it, your own name. Oh, really? Oh, good luck. Is it Alistair? Yes. James?

Yes. Yes. Murray. That's right, yeah. And the hay is because a few generations ago, I think the family was called Hay Murray, like a double-barre thing. and then it got sort of digested

and only the oldest sons have hay in their names. Is that right? Yeah, although if I had a son, I wouldn't have bothered. We'll also introduce my dog called Raymond. What do you make of him so far? He's a Shih Tzu. He's very small, isn't he? Well, he's tiny, and, you know,

I have some pretty unreconstructed ideas about dogs and how big they ought to be and how dainty. And he's kind of running against some of those. ideas right now but you know i think if any small dog can change your mind he'll be the one well my yeah my kids my kids at their mum's house have a have a have a have a jack-a-wa-wa you know like a jack-russle chihuahua-law oh yeah that i that i call tiny dog because she's she's she's that kind of size but not um not as her suit yes not as hairy mine's got i always say he looks like a sort of one-night

stand between a wookie and a iwock yes i think that That's about right. Yeah, it is, isn't it? He's not. He's really keeping up, isn't he? That's the main thing. He's good. We can take him off the lead soon now.

Dogs or short leads only, it says I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. People are pretty... It's quite a lot of rules and regs. Yeah, people are pretty funny about the rules around here. So it's Chiswick House, Al. You've taken me here for our dog date. It's beautiful, isn't it?

Yep, Chiswick Park. And this is a trivia fact where the Beatles did their last ever photo session. They came here to do it. apparently but it's you know it's a it's a

stately home I think it must be regency I can never remember it's a Palladian architecture or Georgian yeah you see I immediately deferred to you on anything historical

oh no but I don't know anything about that sort of thing do you not no no no no you know about planes and war planes and yeah I know some political history as well

but yeah planes and war that's me tanks We're shorted in all of those here. I want to go back to when you were younger. Yes. And you grew up in, was it Buckingham, Sherrill? Yeah.

And did you have any pets growing up? Yeah, my parents, until recently, have always had dogs. Really? And always Labradors. And, I mean, you know, my family, given it, as conformed to type quite a deal, great deal. Black Labradors. What do you mean by conform to time?

Well, you know, my family is sort of a bit posh. Oh, here he goes. Have you got any poo bags? Do you want to talk us through what's happening, Al? Yes, Raymond is deciding to make his mark on Chiswick Park. Oh, no. Oh, no, have you not got any peeves? I found. I've got loads.

Look how tiny his poos are, Al. Well, if they're enormous, you'd think either you were overfeeding him or there was something really, really wrong with him. Well, I did say once. this podcast that I was so shocked when I took I saw a new foundland's poo and I said well that is basically like Greg Davis is on the toilet I'm sorry but that's not having a dog that's like taking a man round of you yes well those are that's a very tidy little um turd isn't it lovely is yeah we're kind of a bit posh so black labrador called spike and then a and then a golden one she was called Bella was it a bit like the one at the end of down to

and Abbey credits that shakes its bum I imagine that yeah yeah so they're all there but yeah yes there was spike then there was Lottie then there was Bella and then my parents looked after my dog when I got divorced they looked after Molly who was a Spaniel blue roancock a spaniel who was it was a nice thick dog she was really lovely with your kids with the yeah yeah yeah and um is molly still around then no molly's no longer with us she did the thing because she was thoroughbred you know like pedigree dog yeah she did the thing they do, which they're beautiful and they're fantastic until they're nine, and then they suddenly

get cancer over and their heart's imploded. It's all really depressing. I know. Poor thing. I used to take her on tour with me. Did you? Yeah, a few times, and she escaped from my dressing room and ran across the stage at Beres and Ebbin's Theatre. That's a bit like, you know, when the dog gets loose in the school playground and everyone gets really excited. It's that dog on the stage. A lot like that. Right now, it's not amazed this, but we've options here. We can turn Hard right, not so hard right, carry on straight on and go left. Well, I think, as I'm with the pub landlord, let's go hard right. Yeah, I think why not?

And towards some sort of imperial architecture as well. Right up his street. Your mum and dad, did they both work out? My dad worked at British Rail in back when it was British Rail. His whole career, because I think he wanted to be a servant, and I don't think he'd done well enough at uni. so he went to work at the railway and he was there until right up,

you know, right up to the end of British Rail for the privatisation. And then my mum worked at the Citizens Advice Bureau, volunteered and then ended up on the National Board and all that sort of thing and sort of, you know, helping people out with their problems. You see, it's interesting when you say that

because I think most people, and I'm afraid it's going to have to come up, the literary giant in the room, I'm going to have to mention it, is you, is it William Mopee's Thackeray, who wrote Vanity Fair? Is it Thackeray, you say? Well, Thackeray, yeah. You can say any way you want, but, yeah.

We say Thackeray, but... Well, I think I'm going to go by you. Right, okay. He is your ancestor, isn't he? Yes, three greats grandfather on my mum's side. So he had two daughters, and then they had children, and my great aunt, so my mum's aunt, her grandmother was Thackeray's daughter. So she had stories of Thackeray.

Wow. That had come from her grandmother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's sort of, it's sort of, to me, it's not amazing. It's just like it's just a thing. But from another point of view, I can see that it is incredible to some people. Well, do you think when you have something like that in your history, I think you make a choice with that.

You either say this is going to be part of my identity. Yes. You know, we all know people who've got famous, come from famous dynasties. Yes. It's very much part of, you know, hello, can I have, you know, a bag of chips? And by the way, my grandfather was, I've never seen it like that with you. I've always got the sense that you're like, oh, this is a funny little thing to talk about. Well, my great-my-a-a-a-a-a-a-mpe very much was like that and very much regarded herself as a sort of keeper of an internal flame and all this sort of thing.

And wouldn't hear a word against him. I mean... I thought she wouldn't hear a word again. Oh, seriously. Well, because the thing is, is he had a very interesting odd life for all sorts of reasons. And his big conflict in his life is he wanted to write, he wanted to be a brilliantly successful novelist and satirist, but he also wanted to be a respectable gentleman.

So he had the real tension between wanting to write about the world as it really was and scandalised people by doing that, and also be regarded as a respectable chap and impossible to reconcile. I mean, in a lot of ways, like being a modern comic, you know, because you're expected to be rude. You're supposed to be flicking vs at the world. So it's kind of like that and then actually wanting to, you know, I don't know, go to church on Sunday. And he had that problem in his life.

Yeah. So my great aunt would always err on the side of the respectable gent. And he may not have been, because he had a very unhappy marriage because his wife was really ill. Right. And he may well have, his funeral is the big sort of, there was a big crowd there of Soho people, the way you'd probably describe it. Because he was a clubbable gent and all that, and probably had had all sorts of relationships with people he maybe shouldn't have done.

So it was a big crowd there anyway, and then everyone leaves, and then Dickens is the last person there, and then Dickens leaves. But the thing is, they were probably what you'd call disreputable, or what Victorians were called, as reputable women present. Right, oh, I see.

And my great aunt just couldn't afford him that space in her sort of picture of him. Yes. Whereas I don't care. You know, it makes him really interesting. It makes him more human to know more about him. Yeah. But I've only, I haven't read everything he's written. I've read some of it.

And you've got his inkwell? I've got his Mr. Punch Inquil, because he left, he worked, made his reputation at Punch. And then when he left Punch, they gave him this inkwell. That is, you know, it's Mr. Punch. And the idea is he lift his cap back and dip your quill in the ink in his cap, although it's soldered shut now. And my mum has lots of his stuff.

You've said before, I've heard you say, look, people call me posh because there's bishops and ambassadors in your family and, you know, all sorts of interesting things. There's something, when you look up your... It says it refers to the Holy Roman Empire and not many people can claim that. So people often say that, and I know you often say, and you've said to me, I'll look, there's posh and there's posh and I'm not eaten posh. You're from this impressive kind of lineage, but it really, your parents were just quite regular. people. Yes, I mean, I think the thing is, I've often wondered about this because on my Wikipedia page, there's those

things I didn't know, and you have people coming to me on Twitter going, well, you're all this at the other, and I'm thinking, well, I had no idea, this is interesting. So that in itself is quite interesting, but it strikes me if you look at our Wikipedia page, we are a downwardly mobile family because it starts off with

there's some dukes in there somewhere and now I'm a comedian. So you could argue that in fact, you know, I'm doing what I ought to do, deposhing myself and... Oh, you're sort of going back to your roots because, as you say, that's what your great, great, great... Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The grandfather's doing was sort of satire, really. Well, it was entirely was. Exactly what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, I mean... So you've taken on the family job? Yeah. There's a bit in that Ian Dury film that Andy Circus made ages ago where they're having... His sons at private school and he's

going, my mates will say, I'm posh because I've gone to this school and the Indian jury system. Some, we're not posh, we're arts and crafts. and that as at that is the thing that really appeals to me the idea that there's a you know you're right if you're in the arts your arts and crafts it doesn't matter where you came from you've picked that class for yourself and you're now part of that and so you've got different set of concerns and all that sort of thing

we've got some lovely hello what kind of dog is that that labradoodle maybe yeah it's beautiful lovely hocapoohoo oh look at ray what do you think hey hello darling see this is the thing because he's so small and I think he's like a rabbit Yes, the arts and crafts thing. I remember we worked together once on Frank Skinner show and you were taking on the reins while Frank wasn't there.

You were hosting the show. And you mentioned that to me. You said the arts and crafts thing, which I really liked. And I think I told you that my mother used to say, I'd say, what class are we? Because my parents were sort of actors in the media and stuff. And my mum would say, we're classless, darling. And I told the boyfriend that.

And he said, I think the darling is right. rather a give away there, isn't it? Yeah. But the arts and crafts I like, because it's not one thing or the other really, is it? It's just... Yeah, and it says you may be from one part of the world, but you've picked a different one.

Anyway. And you had two sisters, didn't you? Yeah, an older sister and a younger sister. We'll go that way. And did you get on with them, Al? Well, I went to boarding school, so I did get on with them, but I didn't see much of them.

So I went when I was nine until I was 18. How was that? I would have been quite found that difficult. Well, it came about where it was. It was really, it's funny because it's, you know, it's happened now, but you look back and you think, how would I be different if I had not done that? And what do you think about that? Well, I don't know.

I mean, that's almost a, it's a counterfactual you can't consider. But I went because my grandfather died outside Dunkirk in 1940 and had left some money in trust. And it was decided by the family that it'd be spent on. If my mum had a son, it would be spent on the grandson's schooling. And there was only enough money to send one of us. So I went, which I now look back and you think, like, crap. Do you? Yeah, I really do.

You know, the bald sexism of it and, you know, maybe one of my sisters might have benefited more from it, or maybe, you know what I mean, you just don't know. But then on the other hand, you had to go away from your family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he did look at one point, it looked like Dad was going to be working abroad quite a lot. So I think that was sort of part of the reasoning as well.

Is that you had consistent education? Yeah. Because your dad did move to Venezuela. Yeah, yes, we worked in Venezuela for a bit. And we went out for three months in, I think, 1976. What bird is that, Al? That's a heron, isn't it? That's about the extent of my bird spotting.

That was handy. No, it's definitely pigeons. I'm less impressed by that. That's a squirrel. Yeah, that's a squirrel, yeah. So being at boarding school, you were saying, sorry, did that feel? How did you feel? I was not happy about it when I first went.

Really? And it's funny because the thing you realize, when you're in the middle of it, you don't realize it's happening, but the thing you realize about boarding school when you get a bit of a distance on it is it's a ruthless, relentless, pecking order thing going on the whole time. And you're doing it, you don't even know you're doing it.

You don't even know you're doing it. Everyone's jostling for position. It's an all-male environment. You know, the level of banter is just sort of, to use like a more modern way of going on. Like absolutely diabolical. Was it? Yeah, it's a ruthless environment.

You know, I went there thinking it might be fun and then you realise that actually it's a sort of bear pit. And it's a very sporty school and I'm not sporty. And that's very hard to fit in with if you're not. Yes, it seems because it's called Bedford School, isn't it? Yeah. It's very sort of people, it's got a sort of military tradition and a sporting tradition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I mean, Paddy Ashdown went there, long before me, obviously. And then Alastair Cook. The cricketer. Yeah, yeah. And there's the famous story about him coming on, you know, when he was 13. They knew he was pretty handy. So they put him on for the first 11, just to try him out. And he scores 100 or something.

and they're like, oh, Christ, this guy's a prodigy. They were happy for a guy to be good at cricket. But if you, you know, I fell in with people who were interested in acting and hiding from sport, basically. Really? Yeah. What sort of legacy has it left on you as a person going to boarding school in terms of, are you quite self-sufficient almost?

Well, yes, I think you end up emotionally self-sufficient. I mean, I think with that you either do or you don't, which could also mean a bit closed off. and you can also not know how to fold a shirt because someone's done it for you right you know we'd chuck our laundry in a basket every other day and it would reappear

on the bed folded and you know that's not a good preparation for life but you know you I think I have a part of my character is to avoid conflict and it's because of that because you avoid you better off keeping your head down avoiding conflict

I was thought in a dormitory for anything for a quiet life but then the other real thing which I think feeds into what I do is I had a confused relationship with authority at school because you'd want to be good so you'd want to do what you were told and then you'd realise that a lot of it was nonsense and so actually reconciling that I think that's fed into you know the what I do comedically which is you know you set yourself up as a voice of authority and then well it's what you do with your comedy which is interesting because you have created your own

voice of authority in a way. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And, and, and because, because I don't think you should trust them necessarily, or you should at least, you should at least, best go, oh, yeah, when you hear someone being authority to it. So in a way, with the pub landlord, who's your character, which I'm sure everyone is aware of, you're almost satirising the idea that you, the person who knows everything and is, and has absolutes about everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that, that, I think, is a product of, because I remember We had to go to chapel a lot. Are you religious at all?

No, not at all. Yeah. Not at all. Although I went, you know, I was confirmed in all that when I was 13. What about the bishop in the family tree? Well, they see, see. But then I look at that, I look at that family tree sometimes, those people. I think, well, they're just sort of technocratic people, you know.

You'd become a bishop if you wanted to run things and, you know, whatever. Yes. But no, I'm not religious. And we used to have this. And I sort of can almost figure out when that, when that, when that, when that, when that, And I went, hang on a minute. Yeah. And it was one of the chaplains at school did a sermon about how, you know, Darwin, Darwin was a bad man because he told us we were just apes and therefore not responsible for actions.

And Einstein had reduced us to just atoms. And we weren't. We didn't have souls anymore because of the atom bomb. And, you know, and you're like, mate, this is this is bullshit, right? I mean. I wish you'd stood up. Well, you really wanted to. go and I remember sitting there sitting in chapel thinking what an earth you know like you can't draw

any of these conclusions for any of this what are you doing and and and yet there he was and we're supposed to take him seriously at the end sort of think think on what he was saying and that's kind of it's supposed to never question it that was exactly exactly exactly you're just supposed to you're just supposed to go right yeah I hadn't thought it like that before whereas um although your daughters who are now I guess university age aren't then I imagine they are of a different generation now, aren't they? Because they probably would question that. I think they... Well, I think they probably would. And I mean, my oldest is at uni now and the sort of, you know, the intellectual universe, 19 year olds in habit is... Yeah. Like, it's another planet compared to 30

years ago when I, you know, when I'd done my A levels and gone to school. I mean, it's fantastic, actually, the difference and looking at the difference and watching her get to grips with it. Well, they're less passive, aren't they? I think they're more involved in... I want to talk about how you got into comedy out, because... you left school, which it sounds like, you know, in some ways it's probably made you the person you are, but on the other hand, it's, you know, it's sort of, I admire you for getting through that because I would have found that tough. Yeah. And I think I would have been, I mean, I think your parents sound lovely people actually, I mean, actually, but I think that would have been, I think I would have had a conversation saying, why did you send me to board?

Well, the thing is, it's sort of never been, it's never, we've never got around to it, because, because the last two years were really good fun, because by the time you get to, 16, 17, basically the pecking order had finally shaking itself down. There was no more of that to do. I had some good friends and we were all doing a lot of music and drama and all that and I was finding a lot of the work kind of, you know, the study kind of

interesting and rewarding. And you got in with the arts and crafts. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We had this amazing drama teacher who said, oh what you need to do is try writing stuff. So got a bunch of us into writing and I mean none of it was any good but it was the sort of getting us to think about that Do you remember Al which I often ask

people who do this podcast that first sense of being funny making people laugh like at home when you were growing up Were you the funny one? Was it like oh wow we'll do this beach owls? No not really It was sort of an intermittent thing like I'm either wanting to really wanted to show off

or just not having the confidence to but I always knew I wanted to perform It was something I always thought, this is interesting, something I want to try and do. We'll go that way. Yeah. So you went to Oxford? Yeah.

Well, and on my first day, I took my... You did history there? Yeah, I did history there. Modern history. On my first day, I took my drum kit down to the college music room. So music had been a thing for you as well, had it? Yeah, yeah, big time, yeah. And in the college music room where I was Stuart Lee and Richard Herring,

and I said, oh, what are you guys doing in here? And they're like, oh, well, we've got the room books. like putting a comedy show together and, uh, I said, alright, you don't mind if I'd dump, no, dump your drums. And I said, and what are you doing? What do you mean a comedy show? And they told me. And that's like how I found out about the, I mean,

I found out about the scene. Yeah. But that's how I find out, right from there, they'd just been in Edinburgh and they were, well, they'd been in Edinburgh that summer and they were putting their show on again, you know, as a review in Oxford. Someone had set up a club where you had to write new material every other week. And I just sort of thought, well, I'll go along, I'll see what that's like.

and get involved and it happened sort of straight away and i bullied some mates into being in a sketch group with me and we all wrote stuff together and did some shows you know one or two of them who should never have been never allowed themselves to be bossed about by me and told they had to do sketches but it was really good fun it was um and you realised you loved that i absolutely loved it and i liked it more than acting because because you're making it up you it the whole thing the whole thing is between you and the audience. There's no play in between you and the audience. There's no director in between you and the audience. It's the simple directness of it and everything I'd done up to that point, you know, academically, it's all filtered, whereas this is a way of finding out about you

directly. Like broadcasting is the same thing, you know, to you and the audience together rather than anything in between you. And I don't know why that just really appealed to me. You left university You then, you know, you won the Perrier, I think it was 99? 99, yeah, yeah, 20 years ago. And was that with the pub landlord that was with that. Yeah, it was a pub landlord show, yeah, yeah. So when did you, that was, were you working with Harry Hill at Edinburgh when you came up with the idea of the pub landlord? So basically, Harry and I met on a, on weekending, which is the BBC Topical Show on Radio 4.

That was the show that, Pete, every graduate, when I was sort of people would say, I want to get a job writing for weekending. That was your route into comedy. And they had an open house. And you'd go in and you'd say, how about John Major and who had? You know, you just pitch stuff to them. And then if you got enough on, in their commission, you'd have to write so many minutes a week. And I met Harry doing that.

Oh, sorry. That's a swan. I can happily tell you that that's a swan. I'm really terrified of them. Yeah, they ask her. I think it's behind a fence. Well, I just always, you know, you get a sort of trigger word. Like, whenever I see swan, I think of your arm being broken.

Yes, that's the thing, isn't it? Is that because they do that? He could just fly over, though, Alan. He could fly over. I'm sure that Ray would defend us. Anyway, it's a bit manking. So we then did a show at the fringe called Pub International. Right.

With the pub band, the band are called the pub band at the end, and then some other bits and pieces. And I was supposed to come up with a comparing thing to link the show together. Yeah. And the thing I came up with didn't work. Right. So the day we started, I said, well, why don't, and we're in a cabaret bar at the Pleasant in Edinburgh.

I said, well, why don't I say I come on and I'll say that the compare hasn't shown up, so the barman's, I'm the barman I've offered to fill in. So that's what I did, and it worked. And then we had a tour. And so by the end of the tour, I had, you know, an hour's worth of material. And then it evolved, and I did four Edinburghs after that kind of in a row. And really threw myself into it. Come on, Ray.

Come on, Ray. Is that a Samoyd? Oh, she's in her. Yeah, they're lovely. Brilliant. Beautiful. It's a proper footballer. Yeah, that's proper footballers.

Perm. 70s, wet-look perm. With the pub landlord character, which is obviously, you know, you start. with you winning the Perrier, and then it's gone on to be so hugely successful. And it's one of those characters that, like Steve Coogan with Alan Partridge or Ricky Jervais with David Brent,

as a performer, is there something almost quite nice about that? Oh, yeah, yeah. You have that boundary between who you are. Yeah, your boundary between who you are and the characters. So the thing I really like about it is it means that very often I am a surprise to people. and also it also puts me under less pressure, me under less pressure to be funny as myself because me isn't the funny bit, the character is.

But the thing I really love most about it is it means people don't, unless they've been paying attention, they don't really know what I'm like and they don't know me. And I think in the way people live now, if you're famous, people want to know, or people want to know everything about you and they think they know everything about you and actually having a gap is really, really useful. Yeah.

And physically as well because a lot of people think you're bald. Yeah, yeah, and I'm not. Can I just say El Morrow has a very healthy head of hair? Yeah, which is... And you have to start, because you're going on tour actually very soon, aren't you? The new tour is called out.

Landlord of Hope and Glory. Excellent title. Thank you. When do you start the shave then? Well, that will happen. We've got some previews in the first week of March and I'll cut my hair off for those. Because I have done the character with hair and a beard and it just, it's sort of like, it's like Samson, you know, reverse Samson. I'm weaker with hair. And, you know, people are paid to see him, not me. So you have to give them, I have to give them him. People love it. And it's like as soon as you walk on said, you can feel people think brilliant.

and there's sort of an excitement and the familiarity and also, I think especially at the moment, obviously with the political landscape. Oh God, the brazen topicality. In fact, I mean, the weird thing is writing this new show at the moment, that is a bit of a problem

because, you know, we don't have... Your edit button is working over time. Well, yeah, yeah. And we're in this, right this minute, you know, mid-February, we're in this weird situation where basically the same thing keeps happening again and again and again and it's not being resolved.

Yeah. Yet looming is possible calamity. And I sort of need, I mean, luckily I'm going out on tour after March the 29th, by which time we might actually have a, not an end to the story, but at least the sort of... This is Brexit, obviously we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a way point. I should go out this way. Yeah, go that way, yeah.

Like a waypoint in the story we can talk about, like what will actually happen. I have a theory about you, Al Murray, which is that... Yeah, uh-oh. Well, no. With regards to the pub landlord, I think it's really interesting because I remember studying the importance of being earnest when I was... This is relevant, I promise, bear with me, when I was doing A-Levels.

And the English shooter said to me, there are two ways of looking at this play. You can either see it as hilarious high farce and that Oscar Wilde didn't intend for it to be anything other than that, an entertaining comedy of manners. Or you can say this is a biting satire on the sort of cultural norms of the time. Yeah, yeah.

And in a strange way, come on, Ray, Ray. I think in the way that you can view it in those two ways, he was sort of smuggling in satire, I think. And I think with the pub landlord, there are two ways of viewing that character. You can either say, oh, this is funny and he's just a character that you can laugh at, or you can look at that and say,

well, actually, Al, the person who creates it, Yeah. It's quite a sort of harsh satire in some ways. I mean, I'm completely guilty of trying to have it both ways. Completely, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other way I've always looked at it is if it's funny, it goes in, into the set, rather than always, is this necessarily consistent? Because when you write character stuff, people talk about characters being consistent.

But I know lots of people who are wildly inconsistent. That's part of their character. Where is he? Ray. Ray. There you are. Come on. And also, it is meant to be a piece of entertainment. So if you have a, if you, if you have him contradicting itself, himself and it's funny, then that's got to go in. I've always had this attitude. Everything goes in the pot. So there's got to be some satire in there. But there's also got to be being, uh, bluntly rude, ignorant. Yeah. Sometimes actually sort of weirdly reflective and all that sort of thing. Just because you, you, you want, I always think you need lots going on at once if you're doing a couch. Because otherwise it can't. that one note. I think that obviously there are

people that go and see your show some of whom agree with him. Some of whom don't. I suppose you could argue in a strange way it's almost like the Simpsons where there's a number of people of different age groups and different people watching that and getting different things from it. And I suppose

it's the same with the pub landlord but do you sometimes have people like journalists and things like that saying oh well Brexit? Oh I've had people tell me it's my fault. you know, part of the normalisation of some of the arguments, you know. What do you respond to that? I think it's funny. I always think if when people say things like that, or they say that they agree with the problem,

it's just another, it's like another layer to the joke. It's like another payoff to the gag. If people watch that and they think it's real, I think that's really funny. Yeah. It's something else, if only for me to enjoy about it, you know, the sort of ridiculousness of that. Ray.

Sorry. Ray's gone into the Chiswick House Conservatory. I like as well as, because you've got your flat cap and your barber on, you do look very Lord Crawley, down to an Abbey. It's a little gentrified, isn't it? Except we should have had a Murray Labrador, not the tiny urban chit-suit. But yeah, so I was going to say with the pub landlord that I think when you ended up as the 2015 election, you stood for the seat of South Fannett. And there's a brilliant thing,

if anyone hasn't seen it, you should check out this clip on YouTube because it's Al standing next to Nigel Farahage. Oh, yes. And you see his response as he's beaten by the Conservative MP. I can't I forget saying. Craig McKinley, yeah. But that was interesting.

I mean, you got 318 votes. Yes. I think they were voting none of the above. Right. The reason I did that was, the year before I'd written a show, a Pubbinald show, all about politics because it was obviously becoming, it was getting a hotter topic with the coalition government amongst comics.

And I wanted to write about it. And I also think, again, it's like a know-all thing. The Pubbantil knows everything. He's the authority on everything. So make him the authority on politics. And you're going to get something really inane and funny out of it. And then, Russell Brown, God bless him, said, don't vote. And I thought, I don't have anything like his,

I don't get anything like the attention he doesn't. I don't have anything like his pulpit. But I think that's a really daft thing to have said. So I need to do something that will get people to vote or think about voting. Why do you think that's a daft thing to have said? Because, I'm going to get terribly serious now. I think in our politics lately, the voters have been treated like sort of petulant consumers,

and you have to give them what you want, then they're not regarded as civic partners, literally in a sharing of power between the political elite and the electorate. So if you don't vote, you're not part of that civic partnership. And you're not, you know, you can reduce it to, you've got never had to complain about the outcome if you weren't part of it. Well, then you're sort of... I just don't really think's right, but...

Yeah, then you're sort of handing over that power to the elite, aren't you? Well, the people who can be bothered to vote. Yeah, yeah. And if the people you don't like, manage to get more people out to vote than you do, more fool you, you know. And Russell made it clear who he liked and didn't like, but then didn't offer any, but said there's no point anyway. But you aren't saying, right, I didn't like that. You can sort of say, well, actually, there's no point voting because everything is controlled by a cabal of elite. But then by not voting, you're allowing that to continue, but you're reinforcing

that. I see what you're saying. Yeah. I don't even believe, I don't believe, I don't believe, I don't believe that cabals do control things anyway. And politics does work, you know, equal marriage. You look at that happening. That's politics. working and delivering something that 20 years ago was completely unthinkable. Brexit? People have spoken. Well, exactly. Exactly. Same thing, you know. Do you personally believe the people have spoken? I think...

And it should be left. I think it's profoundly problematic doing referendums for basically the same reasons that not voting is profoundly problematic. We've got a representative democracy. If you short-circuit that, as you can see, you probably damage. it, the idea that the MP's there to represent the best interest of his constituents rather than his constituents. You see, when I hear you talk like this, I think, oh, why don't you genuinely run as Al Murray?

Oh, Christ. Would you ever do that? Well, no, because I, no, I wouldn't because, because... But you know about politics in history? You're very articulate and you're funny. Yeah, but it goes back to what I said earlier that, you know, I don't really trust people in authority, and then I'd be one. My main takeaway from doing the running for Parliament

was how shit it is being a politician. Why? Because there's a whole perception they're all in out for it for themselves but they don't have to do it. No one has to do it and the expectation is that you're going to fail, say something stupid,

embarrass yourself, have your nose in the trough and all that. And that's the like ground zero. That's most people's starting point in politicians They don't trust them, they hate them. So I don't know why anyone would want to put themselves through that. Some people would say that about stand-up, though, Al. I mean, I look at you, even though you have the protection of the pub landlord character,

you know, when I saw you, for example, backstage about to go on. Yeah. And you're not a sort of nervy person, free best thing. But I sort of look at you, and I'm kind of in awe, people like you and Frank Skinner, and I think to step out on a stage, let's say, at the Palladium, and you don't feel nervous, and you're essentially, saying to people, it feels like a gladitorial to me. But the difference is

being a comic, especially once people know who you are, unless they actually, if they know who you and they don't like you, they're not going to come and see you. If they know who you are, they're like, you're there to play together and that's quite unlike being, I think it's totally unlike politics. We did this big press launch and the journalists... Was this for the tour recently? No, no, this was press launch during the election. Oh, during the election, yeah. And the hacks there. They were. weren't there to play, we were there to play.

We had this silly manifesto with stupid things in it. And they weren't there to play. They were to go, they were going, you're not really a pub lander. They're like, boys, right? I know I'm not. You know I'm not. Right. That's not what we're here to do.

I'm here to tell you that I want to put 20p into pound to make the pound worth one pound 20p. Like, come on. And that was what was different to going on stage a normal gig where everyone's there to play. We're there to play together unless you get, you know, occasionally of the odd person who isn't. Well, it's like that improv rule where everyone. everyone agrees, no one shuts it down. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's basically what you and an audience do.

You're doing that together. They're there because they want to laugh at what you've got to say. They're there in agreement, which is not what politics like at all. Come on, Ray. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? That depends, really. I think I can sometimes be very introverted and sort of find myself thinking, well, I've not really got anything to say in this situation,

but other times I can be extroverted. I never think, because people talk about that lot, I don't know, there's types. And I don't know that such a black and white choice is particularly accurate about people. You know, with my people I trust, I can be extroverted. But being a performer doesn't necessarily mean you're an extrovert. Well, that was why I asked you, because Alan Cochran, who I do the radio show, it's quite interesting on this, because he says he's only sort of just discovered that he's actually an introvert. and his whole life he made the assumption

that he must be an extrovert because he was a stand-up. And I think actually what stand-up comedy gives introverts is a sort of safe space. Oh yeah, controlled environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely, yeah. Do you think that's right? No, certainly. And that I think was the thing that appealed to me about performing

when I was a teenager. Because when you're a little kid, you think, oh, you want to be in the school play. You don't know why and you don't know what it is. But I remember when I was a teenager being very self-conscious, and realizing that performance is a way of having control of a situation and not needing to be self-conscious anymore. Or if you are self-conscious, it's sort of like dealt with.

We used to have this big school assembly. You'd take turns in walking down to the front and handing in the register. Yeah. And there were like 600 people. And I remember that, you know, a long walk down some steps, and you go up and you hand it in. And I remember having to do that once and thinking the whole school was looking at me and it is hideous and I was going to trip coming up and down the steps

and all that sort of thing. And so I think, but if you know how to perform dropping the slip off, or you know about performing, that's a controlled situation. And you're not worried about everyone looking at you. And stand-up really can be like that. And safe space is really exactly what it can be. And that phrase, I think, is really interesting. Because that also applies to what happens between a comedian and audience

and why people get their knickers in a twist about offensive material. It's when people go to see someone who's rude, that's the deal. Yeah. That's the safe space, as it were. You've gone there to play together, being rude together. Yeah. In the way that people go to see Frankie Boyle to be political, or they go to see Frank to be sort of a bit naughty, or they go to see me to be rude. That's why comedy clubs were clubs, because you remember, and it implies membership. And you're in on the joke, and you're in on the deal between a comedian and their audience. Oh, some school party.

Oh, what's there? Oh, there's a school party. That's very sweet. cute. We're passing kids, I want to ask about yours. Yeah. You've got two daughters. I've got three. Three. Well, I was going to say you've got a new one now.

Yeah, I still have to say, no, I've got three. Two teens, although one's at, you know, she's at uni now. She's a grown-up. And then a one-year-old. And what's that been like having a little kid later in, as I say, later in life? I mean, you're hardly sort of Charlie Chaplin, you know, like getting a hernia when you bend down to pick it on. No, I'm not Charlie Chaplin. But it's not, I presume it's not.

You know, it's... Well, I never... There's a gap between them, I guess. It's something I didn't think I'd do. Something I didn't think would happen, but it's been really brilliant. Oh. Although there's that thing you think, oh God, when she's going to university, I'll be nearly... I'll nearly be 70, but you have to like, say how well.

70's... 70's the new 60s, isn't it? You have to do one of those sort of lies to yourself. You know what Fang Skinner says? Which is a slightly bleaker look at it. He says, I decided to miss out the difficult teenage years. Well, that's one way of looking at it. I mean, have you sort of changed as a person? Do you think you do, you know, you mellow?

Or do you think you're... I think I'm a lot more chilled about being a parent. Are you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you describe yourself as good nature, though? I think I try to be. What do you lose your temper about?

Oh, I get, I sort of, like I said earlier, I tend to often avoid conflict. So what will sometimes happen is I'll store something up for a good 18 months. and then and then go off about it. Usually after it's long forgotten by all other parties. But do you, are you someone like, are you one of those people? So like with your partner or with your daughters or with your friends?

Yeah. Are you someone who's like, right, I think we need to talk honestly about this. I feel when you do this. No, no, no. I'd always do that eventually. I never do it when I really ought to. I'm bad at telling people bad news. I was thinking.

I knew. Yeah, there's a way. have not quite saying I can't do that thing. I'm annoyed that I can't do the thing they want to do it. But I can't do it. Right. Yes. Yeah. I'm really bad at that. Those are you? Proper proper weakness of mine, yeah. Will you describe yourself as one of my favourite phrases, emotionally literate? Oh no, not really. No. No. I probably don't even know what that means. So you don't like discussing feelings? I'm not really, I'm not bad about it. No. Do you cry out?

I can, I'm capable of capable of being lacrimose, yes. Come on, Ray. Come on, little man. Come on. That's it. That's one of my favourite responses to the question, do you cry,

is I'm capable of being lacrimose. Oh yeah, it's possible. It does happen, but not very often. You answered that. Anesthetist or something. Well, or like a sort of android character. You're like in Star Wars. Yes, exactly.

What is this water from your eyes? Absolutely, absolutely. But what did you cry at? Oh, I don't know. I cried when the baby was born. There you go. Will that do you? And also another outlet for you, I think, is your drumming,

which is something a lot of people know about you, but you've got a band, haven't you? Yes, I'm in a couple of bands, but there's a band that's sort of mega active at the moment, which is called Fat Cops, in fitting with how my life pans out all the rest of the band live in Scotland and so I have to fly to Glasgow for rehearsals

but we've an album out in March on March 1st and it's at you know What's the music is it Al Well the record The album is kind of every track Sort of a different start It's a bit like going through someone's record collection So the single is a sort of

A bit like a Happy Mondays thing But there are things that are straight up rock and roll There are things that are sort of a bit grungy there are things that are kind of power pop. It's a mixture. Do you love doing it then? I absolutely love it. And it is really good fun.

And we made the record March last year. And I got caught in the Beast from the East, so I couldn't leave Glasgow while we were recording the record. Two days in a row I left the studio going, right, I'm off, I'm back to London now, boys. And I'd reappear two hours later ago. I can't the fucking city shut. I can't get out. So that's coming out and you're going on tour.

So basically everything's all happening at once Because there isn't There wasn't there's just not enough time in the year To do everything and do it all You know because the band the band We've self-funded the release and everything So we're not being paid to do it So it's kind of seeing where that goes

And how much airplay we get Yeah yeah yeah yeah And is there music being released via sort of Spotify or iTunes Oh yeah you can buy it on Amazon There's a you know we've pressed vinyl Well I'm going to be listening to this We've pressed some vinyl And we've made some see it

days, you know. Because I've heard your drumming and it's brilliant. Oh, thank you. You know, it's funny. People say there are two kinds of performers. It was actually Frank Skinner, our opposite of mutual colleague and friend who said this to me, that you get performers who are, they treat their career in different ways. There are some performers who literally they think, right, I'm just going to wait for my agent to call and offer me a panel show. Do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Do you want to do that? Do you want to do this campaign, this corporate? Yeah. So then you get another type of performer who's thinking, I'm going to write a play,

I'm going to be in a band. I'm going to, and I think probably you're in that. Well, I'm in that camp now. I was the other way around for quite a while and it's more, to be honest, with, I didn't go on the road last year at all because of the, oh, gorgeous. Oh, could you explain what's in front of us? Tiny, fluffy. Is that a Pekinese? Well, we should say Ray's just met. I mean, this is a match made in heaven. A Pekinese and mine is a Shih Tzu actually. Yes, oh, yes. Look at the boxing. Oh, yeah, very handsome.

Yeah. Hello. Oh, he's lovely. He likes a look of Ray. Is he alright with that boxer? He seemed all right, didn't he? It was a bit like you was at Louis Swares coming up to you. You dealt with it well. So, yeah, I get the sense that you're someone who likes to make opportunities. Yeah, well, and the other thing I've done with the drumming in the last three years

is I've set up this company making drum kits in Stockport. Yeah, the British drum company. As I call it, every parent's nightmare. Well, totally. Absolutely. I completely, I could, if that's how you want to characterise it, you're 100% right. But we, there were three of us three years ago. Now there's 23 people working there and it's, um, it's really amazing. Oh, what is that, Al? Someone throwing a ball.

Oh, yeah. So that occupies, that occupies a lot of my time. So I'm sort of, um, you know, you can't go on the road forever. I've learned you for quite a while now. Yeah. We just run into each other a lot of things. And you always seem quite happy out. Like you never, do you know what you mean?

You're never, I've never walked in and, you know, some, you know, some. people you think there's something complicated and dark than one and I know you've gone through some you know all of us had lights and shade in our life yeah I've never got a sense of a cloud over you or is that because you're

are you the sort of person that just want is always wants to make everyone feel comfortable and have a laugh and create an atmosphere no I think um I think it's a public school batting down the emotional hatches never never give anyone anything they might be able to use it's all the standard um survival techniques that were burnished

at bedford school those years ago i don't know i tried to be positive about stuff but um one of the interesting things about show business is you do meet a lot of people who who can be consumed by the fact that an awful lot of it's about rejection stuff not coming off. Things don't work out. That show you really loved making is not the one that they want more of and the one you really don't like

is the one that goes on forever. You know, that's what it's like. And I think, you know, I've been doing it long enough to know that that really is what it's like and there ain't nothing I can do about that. And also that everyone, Harry Hill always used to say this, he says everything in the end gets cancelled

apart from the news and EastEnders. He said, every show ever gets cancelled. It doesn't matter who you are, at some point they'll cancel you. And that's true. And so the further down the pecking order are, the more you have to just say to yourself, it didn't work out, it's not going to work out. I'm going to just have to find a way of going forward.

And a lot of the way to do that is to be positive rather than... Yeah, you are, but I also think... We're getting to the cafe, but I want to say to you, I think, I also think you grew up in a house full of women. Oh, yeah. You had two sisters and your mum, obviously. And I think you've now... And I now live in a household of women.

And I think, I mean, I would say this because I'm female, but I think in the same way that I think it's positive for women to hang out with men, I think it's really positive and had an effect on you. Well, I never shot my elbows on a brother. It was all done at school with strangers. So people in the end didn't have to care about. Can I believe you with something, which I really enjoyed? Which was, you know, I know there's mottoes from schools,

and I looked up in a stalkerish way, the motto from your school. And they have a Latin motto, like, I mean, not every school, but they're kind of lovely. My school had a motto which was Connabour, which I think is Latin, but I try. What I liked about Bedford School, is that motto is Bedford School will flourish. It seems very self-interested. Yes. Yeah, Floriat School of Bedfordiensis. Yeah.

Funny enough, the college I went to you at Oxford, their motto is Floria Aweller, made the hall flourish. So there you go, like everywhere I've come from is steeped in grim self-interest. Maybe that's my motto, you know, Floriat Al Murray. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.