Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Al Murray (Part Two)

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

In the second part of our walk with Al Murray - Emily and Al discuss his interest in history and his phenomenally successful podcast, what it's like to become a grandparent, and Emily asks the big question - why are men so interested in war? If you haven't heard the first part of this episode yet, you can listen to it here!Listen to Emily's first walk with Al which from March 2019 hereAl is on tour with The Pub Landlord throughout 2024. Visit https://thepublandlord.com/ for dates and tickets! You can but Al's latest book 'Command: How The Allies Learned To Win The Second World War' hereAnd listen to We Have Ways Of Making You Talk wherever you get your podcasts! Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to part two of Walking the Dog with El Murray. If you haven't yet caught part one, do go back and give it a listen, as this man is hilarious and fascinating, and I think you'll love it. I really hope you enjoy the second part of our chat, and don't forget to subscribe. Here's Al and Ray Ray. Alastair James Haye Murray. Yes. Great name.

Well, yeah, there's a... The hay is like all the men going all the way back, first sons and all that sort of thing. Of course, having had daughters, I've trodden on that a little. Oh, wow. Which bridge is that? That's Hammersmith Bridge. It's very pretty, isn't it? As you can see, there's no traffic going over it, but massive bone of contention locally that. I've seen Jeremy Vine.

Yeah. I see him on his penny farthing. Penny farthing. Tooling around Chiswick. It's really funny. So we were talking about the pub landlord and how you're essentially responsible for Brexit. it, which I'm glad you've admitted to. Well, you know, someone has to hold up their hand and say, yeah, it was me actually.

Credit where credits do. What do you think Nigel Farage thinks of you? Oh, I think he probably thinks I'm another one of the London liberal, lefty media, Islington establishment. When I ran Parliament, it's a long time ago now in 2015, someone did pop up saying, you know, I wish he's Islington, liberal-Ellington, Beavisleeton. people would butt out. And you sort of think, well, A, I live in Chiswick and B, the extent of my work with the BBC has been as a freelancer. I am not on the staff. You know, like, please, if you're going to come at me, put some effort in, do your research. Anyway, yeah, I wonder what he thinks to me. I think he's probably, he probably thinks it was in the end, it was all part of the rough

and tumble. And he got what he wanted anyway. He got, he got Brexit. So it's not like I, it's It's not like I stopped him or anything. But I wonder, it was interesting, that whole character that I feel it demonstrated an awareness. Even though it was satire, a satire is always based on truth, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. You know that memento Mori thing they always have in the paintings? I'm fascinated by me.

There's like a skull. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love those pictures. And it's essentially, remember you're going to die. Yeah, yeah. It's got some books and some wealth and a bust. A bubble of knowledge and all that sort of thing. A bubble buster?

Yeah, yeah. But I sort of see the pub landlord is kind of, he was this reminder always there, like a memento Morrie saying, don't ignore the strength of public feeling. I do remember there was a period where I'd get these reviews going. He's still going, you know, it's all out of date. He's still going about Europe. This is pretty about in the mid-2000s. And I remember reading them thinking, the idea that this has gone away,

the idea that this, that this. scepticism about Europe has gone away is completely bananas and the complacency around that question, which is after all why in the end the Remain campaign was so they were so complacent they thought they'd won the argument so they never made it, you know, and so on. And I always used to think, yeah, what do you mean that I'm still banging on about it? Of course it's still because people still think about this an awful lot and it's lurking and it's there. I want to get on to the respected historian side of Al Murray. You obviously a co-host of a hugely successful podcast.

Yes. We have ways of making you talk. The Second World War podcast for all your Second World War podcast needs. Should you have any? And this is with I recently had Tom Holland on this podcast. Yes, with his brother, James. Yeah. Tom's Holland.

Yeah. And so I can exclude. reveal because Tom told me this that James was in trouble more often and Tom Tom was a bit more Machiavellian well you none of it none of that surprises me if you'd said anything else I'd go on I'm not sure about that Jim's the Cavalier and Tom is the roundhead I think there's that that's the way that that cookie crumbled particularly in that family I mean James is such a I mean we're we're we're We're really great friends and he is such a brilliant historian.

He's so... So are you. No, no, no. I sit at his knee and take the crumbs from his table. He's so amazing. His work rate, I mean, they're both phenomenally hard workers. But he, you know, he's on the second volume of the history of the phase of the war where the allies get to Rome. September, 1943 to June 1944.

And he's written it, he's broken it into two volumes. Oh, can I just say congratulations. It's been a good 40 minute and you've not even mentioned 1944, 1939. We've just got there. We've just got there. Pull up a chair. It's been very, very restrained of me. So he's writing this book, but he's also in the same time written a novel as well.

Because he really loves writing fiction too. And he's just, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his. of fluidity with the material. It's just absolutely amazing. It's an amazing thing to have experienced to be his sort of wingman. It's just, it's been brilliant. I really like your podcast.

Thank you. But I think there is a chemistry which the rest of history boys have as well. Yeah, yeah. And I think you and James have it. I think that's why people listen. Because what we used to do before we did the podcast, if he was in town, he'd say,

can we have lunch? I want to talk about Normandy or whatever. Can I just say, I'm out. If someone, if you wrong me out and said, can we have lunch, I want to talk about Normandy, I would be it. I would say, I'm really sorry, I'm like. The thing is, it's not unlike, it's not unlike my dad and I would, that would be stuff we'd talk about, right? Which is how I got interested in the subject to the first place, because it's my father's passion.

That's where it all comes from. Is that your bonding thing with your dad? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the, you know, the book I'm writing in the moment is entirely because of him. entirely because he took me to see a bridge too far when I was eight and then we went to Arnhem in Holland

which is where I'm writing about when I was 15 Friday because I did an O-level history project and went to Q got the war diaries out and read them and all this sort of stuff and so he took me there and so it's all because of him

but it's the it's the fact that we're it is like sitting in and listening to us talking with a couple of points in front of us talking about stuff. And I'm coming at it from a like, I don't know about this. I want to learn more.

I want to find out more. Really? You're joking. How'd you place that in the context of something else? And Jim's coming out. He's read everything. He knows everything. He knows every last beat of it.

It's extraordinary. And I think it's the friendship and the fact we have a laugh when we're talking about the subject, which I think some people might not. believe would be possible talking about the Second World War. But I think, you know, it's not unlike Tom and Dominic, you know, on the rest of history. It's that they're plainly really enjoying each other's company, if nothing else. Oh, here's a question. Why do men love war?

Oh, that's a good, that is an excellent question. I think that there are so many things tied up in it. I, I think the core thing is, it's incredibly dramatic. Whether you think it's exciting or not, it's the drama of it all, I think is what it's about. Not the glamour. I think there is a idea of glamour around war and the question of war. I think one of the other reasons is on the face of it, it's the thing men have always had to do is fight. and one way or another and obviously it's changing

and it's brilliant that it's changing that women now get the opportunity to kill each other thanks for that well you see this is the thing this is the thing because I wrote a bit about that in the book about how

during the war the British Army ran out of officers so it couldn't rely on public schools anymore so it had to democratise the process so finally working class and if you're an officer the reason they're running out of officers is because it's much more dangerous

and you're more like to be killed. So, you know, finally the working-class lads of England got the chance to be killed at the same rate as posh people. You know, hooray. Equality. Exactly. Exactly. Be careful what you wish for, you know.

Do you think also, I wonder if, you know, Tom Holland talks about the obsession with the Roman Empire. And I think the interest that people have in the Roman Empire, we were sort of saying, I should say he was saying, is largely to do with that sense of its sense. bloodthirsty and exciting and all those things but safely at a distance. And do you think that's true with the interest in the war? I think, I think...

Possibly World War II. Well, I think no, I think it's actually the... For me, it's the opposite. It's that it only really happened moments ago. And it's, you know, my parents are in their mid-80s, the mid-to-late 80s. They grew up during it. We're in direct, tactile contact with it as an event. And also, I mean, you know, in this country, certainly, in modern Britain, modern Britain, I think is birthed by the Second World War, the modern political polity we have with the welfare state and the National Health Service, is birthed by the war.

The idea of the relationship citizens have with the state and all that, they all spring from it. So it's, and certainly if you look at the Russian attitude to the great patriotic war, as they call it, and their interpretation of it, it's still a live event. It's still, it's not like the Roman Empire where you go, oh gosh, they fed Christians to the lines. That would never happen today, but isn't that thrillingly interesting? It's the, it's the opposite. It's that it's still alive. You know, you only have to look at the way politics around questions in the Middle East is being played out that's refracted through questions. about the Holocaust, you know.

Do you know what I've met a lot of people that have done subjects at degree level, some of them Oxford and Cambridge? But very often all that stuff gets filed away and it sits there. Yeah. And they'd sort of struggle to answer a question on the wheel about it. Yeah, yeah. You, I just get the sense you've always been passionate about this subject. Yeah.

You sound like an academic when you're talking about it. Well, I hope not. Because the thing is, when I did do academic history, it nearly killed it for me. At uni, I wasn't interested anymore because they weren't interested in the, you know, the human drama of it or the fact it, you know, conflict war was extremely unfashioned in academia, 305 years ago when I went to university. It's still kind of Israel. It's a dirty word. And there are some historians who are trying to, and they're basically historians on the left

who are trying to turn it around and go, actually we need to understand it, we need to look at what it means and how it works. And what it even is? But yeah, I mean, I have had periods of my life, though, where I've tried to put it aside and not be interested in it. We live in an amazing world. Why am I obsessed with six years of history?

I should be interested in other things. I should look at other times. I should play music. You know, like I've done that. I've literally have done that. There's probably a 10-year period where I tried to say, all right, I've read all the books about Normandy I'll ever read. It's not how it works with passions, though, is it? No, no, no, no, no, I've got drawn back in, which is cool,

because it's because the podcast has been the most amazingly rewarding experience. You know, we have a festival. We have a festival in July. Warfest? Well, yes, we have Ways Festival. Nicknamed Warfest. It's a safe space. for people who are interested in the subject where they're not going to get,

they're not going to get the piss taken and they're not going to get... It's like Dungeons and Dragons. I mean, to an extent, it's like Dungeons and Dragons, but, you know... So Al Murray, this is a very lovely time for you in your life. I'm telling you that.

Because you are a grandfather. Yes, I am, yeah, yeah. My eldest daughter, Scarlett, she's four now. She's four, yeah, she's four. four-year-old daughter and it's really brilliant it's been amazing it was also it was also i didn't think it would be i thought disaster was unfolding she'd been derailed from her uni career and and all this but actually it's it's been it's been brilliant it's lovely it's only lovely and i was very very

skeptical and i was like well i'm going to end up paying for all this and none of that's happened and it's been just the it's just been the most fantastic positive experience it's been incredible. I mean, and also there's that wonderful thing that you're a, as a grandparent, you go, all right, not my problem anymore. Bye. Kicking off now, is she? I think it's pretty time for you to go home. I think that shows, I think that says a lot for you as a parent, actually, because that's quite a bold choice when you're at university or whatever she will and to suddenly say, no, I'm going to go ahead with this. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was. You've given her, um, it feels, That says to me that she has a lot of agency over her own life.

Yeah, well, no, she does. And Scarlett's, Scarlet has a very mild form of cerebral palsy like a hemiplegia as a disability. She's written about it and done some advocacy about it and stuff. And so she's had extra to deal with as a young mum. But I mean, I, you know, I suppose as a parent, the thing you really hope for in your kids, is that they can coat with what the world throws at them.

That's the sort of thing you really can hope for. And she can. It's been an amazing display of her resilience and her strength of character and everything. And, you know, it's been nice to have been proved wrong. And that, with me, is like, that's like the ultimate blood from the stones, me to go, you know what, I was wrong about that?

I mean, that she's achieved as extraordinary in itself. Well, so maybe you're learning from your parents' light touch. Well, possibly. Possibly. I mean, Scarlet might have a different view. Dad was really down on me to start with. But, you know, who's that? That's Capability Brown. Gardener?

Father of the English Landscape Garden. 17, 16, 1783. Do you think Titchmarsh will have that one day? Father of the English landscape garden? Maybe. I'm just saying, Capability Brown. did great PR for himself because he was a gardener yeah a brilliant gardener yeah but he's rebranded himself as father of the english landscape gardener. I mean capability if you that's the

nickname you want I mean you know here comes he's going to do a good job he's capable it's like Marvin marvellous hagler yeah exactly I want to talk as well about the fact that not only have you become a grandfather al-morry you've become a dad again you have two adult daughters one of whom has a child and you recently well yeah I mean she's six now, she's in year one. So, which is great. So, my youngest is an auntie is the other great thing,

with a niece who's two years younger than her, which is just like, it's all, to be honest, it's all been absolutely brilliant, all of that, it's been fantastic. And the, you know, it makes you feel young again. It also makes you feel incredibly old.

Because I don't have the gas in the tank I had. 25 years ago when Scarlett first arrived. Do you think your daughters have been helpful to you in terms of your understanding of women? Well, no, I don't understand them, so I can't apply any broad brush lessons to half the planet. I often think when men go, wow, women like that.

What they actually mean is one woman in particular? They don't mean women. They mean, oh, that, her, she's doing my head in. You know what I mean? And so I don't, so I, I just, I just don't know. Well, it's that thing my sister used to call it, is she mad or is she mad mate? Because the idea that in that there's some, you know, some people are, don't have mental health issues. But mad mate was in the pub, madmate, turned my phone off all night and disappeared for three days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mad, mate. Yeah, mad mate. There we are. Yeah. But do you see yourself as a feminist now? Oh, I suppose I am having not read any of the texts. You know, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I couldn't sit down with Andrea Dworkin or Susan Sontag or Camille Pahlia and, you know, I couldn't go any rounds with any of them.

but no I suppose so but it's having because the two of them are the big ones they're grown up now having grown up daughters you see a load of stuff that you you know how tough it is for teenage girls

growing up in the world right now I'm so glad we're out of that because that was you know seven eight years ago we'd be having this conversation I'd be preoccupied with the with the problems young my daughters having to deal with in the world that young women have to deal with you know things like what you mean the sort of pressures there pressures on body and image and

yeah and also what are they going to do with themselves you know what are they going to do with themselves are they going to be mums are they going to you know and how how compatible that can that be with anything else and you know and all and the the it strikes me it's a bit simpler for boys yeah well you know what you've got war yeah we got war we can dress up in a uniform trying to kill each other and then everything's all right, isn't it? I feel you've got quite a lot of serotonin. Naturally. Frank Skinner, who obviously know well and started out with.

Yes, yeah, I did his support. He was told by his partner, Kath, that he has a lot of natural serotonin. And she worked this out when she saw that he was watching sausages cook and was so excited he was doing a dance on his own at the prospect of the sizzling sausages. I can relate to that. Yeah, I suspect you are. I do like a sausage.

Especially when they're sizzling. But that's what I mean. I suspect you're a don't sweat the small stuff. I try not to. I try not to. Although that can be thrown back at me as you're not paying any attention to any of the detail of how our lives run. You know what I mean?

That can come back at you the other way, but I try not to be, I try not to be, I try to go, it'll be all right, you know, this will pass. I'm a great believer in things passing, moments pass, the bad times fade away, you know. Are you a good person to go to for advice? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. That sounds a bit responsible. Yeah, as long as you don't act on it.

Does that make sense? But I know you don't like confrontation. No, no, no, no fan of that. No. Yeah. Yeah, because they're kind of confrontational responsibility are quite close cousins, I think. Yes.

You know, they're both heavy, aren't they? But when you look at your kids, yeah. What quality of yours would you most want them to have? Oh, I would like, if I do have that ability to not sweat, sweat the small stuff, that's the one I want them to have. So that's resilient?

Yeah, I think it probably is. Yeah. Yeah. Doing stand-up, you have to have a, there has to be part of you that's quite resilient anyway. Do you ever take it personally? If you do a bad gig, I mean, you. Of course, you always take it, it's personal.

It's personal, they don't like your jokes. How could it not be personal? But that's all that's all part of the sort of, you know, carapace of resilience that you end up building up, I think. And anyway, it's like the thing of driving around the M25, the reward is, the reward of it going well is worth it. It's worth developing those sort of defences. Well, no one likes preparing stand-up.

Everyone likes having done it. But it's like what you're saying about writing, yeah, yeah. Al, I need to compliment you before we go. Would you like that? So always. I really loved the recent. history book you wrote. Command,

How the Allies Learned to Win the Second World War. You're not on the one show now. No, we're not, no. What I loved about your book, and I feel this is because you're a comic and you're a natural communicator. Yeah. So I was in.

I felt very engaged. Oh, that's good. All this really interesting thing, for example, you're talking about Montgomery. Yeah. And you make this brilliant observation, the way you sum up his autobiography or his memory.

as you say, it's written with the kind of energy of, I was right all along despite being surrounded by fools. Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing book for that. Yeah. And it's also, if you read it as a historian, you're meant to read his memoir and go, well, you know, I can't possibly rely on this book. But if you want a character reference for him, it's fantastic. But it was so, it was such a brilliantly written book and I wanted to congratulate you. Thank you very much. What kind of dog is that? It's a what? Daxon.

Oh, it's a Daxon. Oh, wire hair dachshund. Do you know? Proper size. Proper size. We saw some dinky ones earlier. His dad actually won crofts for the breed years ago. Unbelievable.

His dad has done was boomer. Oh, he's got for a little poppy as well. What's this dog called? This is sizzles. Sizzles. Sizzles a sausage, yeah. Sizzling sausages. Probably to meet you.

Nice to meet you. Anyway, I think you've written a really brilliant book. Oh, thank you. And I think you should be proud of yourself. Thank you. Thank you very much. How do you feel about compliments? Oh, I like them and I file them and I say thank you.

I'm always amazed by them. I'm always surprised, faintly surprised when I'm complimented, but I really like them. They're good for you, aren't they? If you can take them, they're good for you. They're good for the soul. Some people struggle with it. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. I know a lot of people. some performers in fact and they will say I really don't feel comfortable with you saying this to me yeah performers know the exact compliment they want to be paid and if you don't pay them the exact compliment you you yeah they want to be paid then you've got it wrong I mean maybe sometimes I've done that was someone ago I really enjoyed that show I like the way you did this that and the other thing no no sorry the good bit about this shows there the other thing that and

there's that kind of conflict in it I think One thing you should never say is, God, that must be, it must be so tiring. Never say how do you think it went? No, never say that, no. Because the answer will be terrible. And also you've got them thinking that now. I never don't say anything. Well, I was told the thing to say when you go to something that you don't think is any good.

Is to, you know, go to your friend and go, you, you've done it again. you, you, have done it again. That's the thing you're meant to say if you think you think stinks, apparently. Imagine if Almaru said this to me at the end of the interview. Emily, you've done it again. You've done it again, Emily. Yeah, but the thing is the problem with that is once everyone knows that, you can't do it anymore, can you?

Do you know how I know you're relaxed, Al? Why? I judge it by this. I knew if I'd have turned up today, let's say I'd been 10 minutes late. Yeah. I know you'd have been absolutely unstressed about it. Do things like that not bother you? Not really.

No, because also it's the reciprocity of it. You might be late. I might be late, you know, if I'm not going to get, I'm not going to get, it's like shooting the other side's prisoners in wartime. You don't, you don't shoot, you don't shoot them, they won't shoot you when they capture you. It's like that. I don't think that's ever been applied to the Christian punctuality before,

the idea of reciprocity in taking prisoners of war. But there you go. That's what my podcast has done to me. Owl's war references. That's very funny. Do you know what next time? We won't take the dog out. We're going to sit at home and play cold it.

Right. It's probably been cancelled now, hasn't it? No, you can still get it. It's been reissued. Well, I know I've got it. Someone bought it for me for me. It doesn't have the swastikas on it. Yeah.

They took the swastikas off. Owl, your podcast is brilliant. and I suggest if you haven't listened to it, please go out and listen to it immediately. It's called We Have Ways. Yeah. And please buy ours book. Yes, do buy my book. And my next book, which is called Black Tuesday.

It's the next book. You've got to write that, haven't you? It's like, you know when you're climbing, going up a mountain up a hill and you think, I'm at the top now and then? Oh, no, balls. I've got another bit to do. So it's like that. I mean, the closing stages of this book right now.

He's not selling it, but it is going to be brilliant. It's going to be brilliant. He's a fantastic. Oh thank you so much. My pleasure. Did you enjoy our walk? I did in Orsney and it was very nice to see Ray, the Delai Lama of Dogs. The Doggy Lama. Bye, Ray.

Bye, boy. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed and do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.