Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Alastair Campbell

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

To kick off their first show back, Emily and Raymond take a walk with political legend and host of the UK’s biggest podcast, Alastair Campbell. Strolling over London’s Hampstead Heath with his dog Skye, he reflects on his family and childhood, his time at Number 10, how he manages his mental health and what he loves most about The Rest is Politics. He also takes Skye for a dip and bumps into some old friends from his days in politics…Alastair’s book - But What Can I Do? is out now https://linktr.ee/alastaircampbellbook  Listen to Emily and Raymond's walk with Ed Miliband from June 2019Listen to Emily and Raymond's walk with Ricky Gervais from March 2019Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Walking The Dog is a Goalhanger Podcast brought to you by Petplan. Visit petplan.co.uk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast is sponsored by Pet Plan, who are the UK's number one pet insurer. I've always used Pet Plan for Raymond as they cover things other insurers don't and they can even pay your vet directly, which can be a big help. No, Raymond, that doesn't mean you can spend all the extra cash on treats. Terms, conditions and excesses apply. Pet Plan is a trading name of Allian's Insurance PLC. Your podcast is more popular than God's. God doesn't do a podcast.

Well, Garolinaika hasn't had a conversation with him yet. He's onto it. Welcome to the all-new weekly Walking the Dog, hosted by me, Emily Dean and my dog Raymond, the world's most ridiculous-looking Shih Tzu. We're kicking off our brand-new show with a very special guest. He's a political strategist, author, journalist, even plays the bagpipes. And let's face it, podcasting King. It is, of course, the rest is politics host, Alistair Campbell. Alastair took me to London's Parliament Hill with his adorable Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Sky, and we had the best chat about pretty much everything. Now, Alistair wasn't initially sold on Raymond. The actual word he used was Bogbrush.

I know, none taken. But, you know, sometimes beautiful friendships can grow from unlikely beginnings. I mean, just look at him and Rory Stewart. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Alistair. You can listen to him on The Rest is Politics and do check out his fabulous book, but what can I do? I'd also love it if you subscribe to walking the dog. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the man himself.

Here's Alistair and Sky and Raymond. Come on there, let's go. Look at her. It's like a little sort of bog brush, isn't it? I mean, what a way to talk about my dog, Alistair Campbell. Okay, I just need to find a poo bag. I've got them. Have you?

Yeah. Oh, do you know, I feel really privileged. I'm using an Alastair Campbell poo bag. Do you have branded ones? Yeah. The rest is politics. New European. Rest is poo.

Rest is politics. New European buy my books. Vote labour, sport, Burnley. Love bagpipes. There you are. It's a podcast and nobody can tell whether that's true or not. I'm going to pick up this poo because I know one of your great hates is people that don't pick up dog poo. Oh yeah, for sure.

Right. There's quite a lot of the human stuff around here at the moment as well. well cut come on right I'm hoping Ray's going to make her go a bit faster than she came here I mean we you can always hope Alistair she already performed I'm going to put this in the bin look that was the I don't want to see it see it this is in my branded bag okay come on Ray right sky is on her lead so do you think I should do the same with no it's up to you but the only reason she she doesn't like going without both of us

So she's getting the first 10 minutes she's just going to look back for Fiona all the time. Is she? Yeah. And eventually I'll let her off a lead and she'll forget. Come on. Was that like when you first left number 10? Were you doing that about Tony Blair?

No. Just looking up all the time saying, where's Tony? Oh, do you know, I think Sky and Ray look really good together. Do you? Yeah, do you? It's marvellous. Lovely couple. This guy's she's not a young five, I have to say.

And I think having, so when she was like a puppy, in fact, for the first couple of years she was absolutely sort of you couldn't keep your eyes off her because she was just running around everywhere. And now she's like this, she just sort of loves to stop and poke around. She's also quite bored of the heath. When we first arranged to meet for this walk, I really enjoyed your response. which was, the thing is, sky is so bored of the heath now. Is that why I said? Yeah, and I like it because it suggests that you want to make her life as adventure filled as possible. No, well, also, it's like last week we were in, where were we, we're in Scotland.

And we found this little forest with a little lake and a little lock. And she just was running, it was like she was a puppy again. She was running all over the place. She was diving into water. So, but here she just knows it so well. And partly because, you know, during COVID, we've literally spent a live tramping around the Heath. Come on, Sky.

She's very sweet natured, Alastair. Oh, she is, yeah, no, she's really nice. Where are you going to look? She's a bit of a rock star on the heath, to be fair. So I suppose I should formally introduce you. What should go on then? You don't get that at Wembley Stadium, do you? What?

Well, old St John doesn't say, go on then. You might do. So I could not be more excited. I'm a huge fan of this man. As I'm saying this, he's currently investigating a bush. I'm with strategist, broadcaster, author, and let's face it, podcaster should be right at the top now. Do you think so? Yeah.

It's quite weird, isn't it? Co-host of The Rest is Politics. Now rivaled by the Rest is Dog Walking. A new Goal Hangar Production. They're taken over the world, aren't it? they? Gary wouldn't let me do the rest his dogs. I felt a bit like a sort of love island contestant asking if I could go on question. Did you want to do the rest his dogs? He wouldn't let me do rest his dogs. Why not? I think it's for serious things. It was, you know,

dogs are serious, don't they? Do you hear that, Gary? I think he was the rest his poo. That would be tricky. That's Boris Johnson's podcast. Oh, don't mention Boris Johnson, please. I think one of the reasons was quite going to do is I thought I wouldn't have to talk about stuff I normally talk about. Oh, Alistair, I don't want a harsh or mellow. Let's pretend I never mentioned him. So, Alistair Campbell, will you introduce me to your dog, formally? So Sky, this is Ray. Ray, this is Sky.

Emily, this is Sky. I think we've known each other long enough and I can call you M. Sky, this is M. Well, that makes you sound like a spy master. And Sky is absolutely beautiful, Alice there. Yeah, she is. So how old is she and how long have you had her? She's five and we've had it since she was a little puppy.

She's quite an old five. She's getting very slow and lethargic. She sleeps a lot during the day. Quite like that though. I do quite a lot of my work on the sofa and she comes and just... She's the perfect length for my upper thigh. She just lies against my upper thigh all day long. Snores a lot. I did an interview, a radio interview the other day. After a while the producer came on and said,

Sorry, just we're going, is there something weird buzzing noise in your room? And of course, it was just sky doing a very gentle, permanent snore. She sort of snores with, you know, most snoring there are big brakes between it. She just had very little breaks between the snores. If you do a inhale, exhale, snoring. I also like it when Ray sighs like he pays rent.

It's like, what have you got to sigh about? Yeah. The sky doesn't like being bothered. See, at the moment, she'll park up in a minute, but normally, Fiona always walks her. This is Fiona Miller, we should say, your partner. Yeah. I've 44 years?

42, I think. 42. 43 maybe and she so sky will so if both of us go this guy will go off fine if one of us goes it takes her a long time to warm up you're constantly looking back for the other and what um flavor is sky what breed is she or she have a king charles spaniol i love the curly ears as well She's so elegant. You're right.

Did you see, on our podcast yesterday, I was reading an extract from Rory Stewart's book where he says Jeremy Corbyn has large, beautiful ears. But what the hell is that about? So you're saying the same about my dog. Do you know, that would be really insulting if someone said that to you. If someone said, you know what really lovely ears?

No, I think some people, I've never seen a man that I've thought nice ears. I have been with women. Come on, Ray, Ray. So Alastair, we're here with Sky obviously and this isn't your first time at the dog rodeo because you had a dog prior to this didn't you? Molly. Same breed. But Ruby, Molly was Ruby.

And as you can see, his guy's got quite a lot of white on her. We got Molly because Grace when she was a kid, our daughter. She was obsessed with getting a dog and I was against it. On the usual thing that I was absolutely sure. that we'd get the dog and then Grace would lose interest, blah blah blah, blah, usual story. Now, in fact, to be fair to Grace, she didn't lose interest. However, I think it took a, it was basically Grace's first major campaign.

She even at one point, we came back from a week, Fiona and I'd been away somewhere, and we came back and Grace had put a post-it note in every drawer in the house saying Grace wants a dog, get Grace a dog. Grace's life won't be worth living. if she doesn't get a dog she got Tony Blair to tell me she needed to get her a dog did she no she she just said look you tell him I really really want a dog because I think she thought I would do what he told me which not always the case and so eventually eventually we get I mean she is very very she will sort of just go for it I can't imagine where she gets that

from? No, Fiona and Sky probably. Come on, come on. So that was Molly and but then of course inevitably Fiona absolutely fell in love with Molly. I liked Molly but I wasn't around as much then so I wasn't as close to Molly as I am to Sky. Molly was Grace's dog but I hate this. What when the lead? When the leads get caught. Very nice. Come on. You have to do the dance of the lead. And so you've experienced the thing that I most dread, Alistair, which is that day when you have to say goodbye to a dog. Yeah. Was it, it must have been so sad. Well, it was horrible, but it was also quite, you know, my dad was a vet.

So I was very used to being around dying dogs. I used to go into my dad's surgery and there'd be people sort of, but it was, it seems to me back then it was less of a thing. thing. You went in, obviously people would be crying and stuff, but you went in, the vet put the dog down, put it in a bag, waited to come and collect at the end of the week. That was kind of it. And we had, we did the whole thing, we had this very nice Australian woman, came in and did the whole thing, all of us were there. The boys came, Grace was there, Fianna was there, I was there, the two boys were there, Roy and Cullum. And it really was quite emotional, yeah, it was. It was horrible in a way, but it was also quite nice to see a sort of,

The woman did it really, really well. And then Callan took her out to the car, off she went, and then they did the ashes and all that stuff. Yeah, it's pretty horrible. We couldn't, before, when it was obvious, she was, hello, when it was obvious she was dying or getting towards the end, we'd probably kept her alive a bit too long away. I think the last few months were pretty miserable.

Here we are. They always recognise each other. Was that another? That was another, yeah, cavalier. They normally stop and have a little chat. Come on, will you move? I carry row like this. Would you do this with Sky?

No, no, I think that would be. I think once you've decided your dog is like a handbag, it's all over. Look, she's not moving there. Oh, Sky! Come on. Hello, hello. I'm doing the most ridiculous thing in the world. What which is?

I'm doing a podcast called Walking the Dog. Oh. But the dog won't walk. Hello, Anna, look, she's just standing there, look. Are you part of the podcast? She's the walker. Hello. Hello.

This is her dog. Hi, Justin. This is Raymond. Oh, hi, where's your dog? She's by the tree over there. Oh, God, she really is. Because I was thinking Raymond wasn't doing badly. No, she won't move.

So that's put a bit of a down on the podcast. Why don't you have to rename it? Not walking with a dog. Come on, Sky. She knows she's being used for commercial purposes. I think that's possibly. Yeah. She knows.

I think this is her way of objection. It's just standing up for her value. I think she's right. Yesterday she did a shoot with, I don't know that. She did a photo thing with Grace, but she had to get glammed up and... Glammed up? No, there was, she just sort of, you know, Grace.

You mean Grace did all? The whole thing, the whole setup was sort of gone because she's not moving at all, she's on striking. We don't want to interrupt the production values of this podcast, so we better move off. Okay, see you. Sky, come on. Come on, Sky.

for the lead. Oh she was nice Alistair. That was Mrs Ed Miliband? I thought it was. Did you? Yeah, because I had Ed on this podcast. Who, by the way, may I add, is a wonderful, successful person in her own right. Yes. As a judge. Yes, I was going to say. But that's how you might know her. So I want to go back to Alistair Campbell's origin story.

Yeah. And as you said, your dad, your dad was a vet. Yeah. And this was in Yorkshire where you grew up, wasn't it? In Keithley, Yorkshire, yeah. And you're one of four. Four. Two of us left.

How would you describe your childhood in terms of... I always say when I talk about my family, I say it was sort of benign, bohemian chaos. Okay. How would you describe this sort of dynamic in your household? If I would have three words like that. Caledonian. Very Scottish.

Very family-focused. I mean by that I mean the broader family so both my parents scots from quite big families and we seem to spend a lot of time either you know their other family members coming or us going to them in Scotland and dad a vet very hard-working really cared about his work mum decided once she was once Donald my brother was born she that was it for her she wasn't she was going to just look after family so it was very kind of what did you say benign bohemian I'd say benign non-bohemian as I say quite Scottish small sea conservative there's the men's pond there or sometimes go quite busy in there

no no so an animal's a big part of we had a dog called bistow Bistow is a great name. Yeah. I had a West Island Terrier. She was really sweet. And then we had another one called Penny. He was a Labrador. But my dad was a vet who

we had to leave Yorkshire when I was 11, 10, 11, because he had a very bad accident and gave up his practice and joined the Ministry of Agriculture and became a sort of ministry vet, which was just a bit less stressful. What was the accident? He got attacked by a pig. Yeah.

He was injecting piglets. The farmer had tied the pig up, the sow up, tethered it, but it broke out and got in and smashed him up against the wall and battered him. So it was all a bit grim. So that's why we left Yorkshire. Yeah. And I often think about how different life would have been if we're just, because I'm quite weird on the kind of identity front.

I feel very Scottish. I feel very northern. but I've never lived in Scotland, as it were, full time. And I've not lived in the north since I was 10-11. But animals are a massive part of our childhood for this reason. That was mainly a big farmer, a big animal bet. He loved horses.

Sorry, Alasda. He's got too far behind. I know he's coming. Look at him, Alistair. Look at his little legs. How tiny, aren't they? Walking a bog brush. Here he comes. Justing would be so excited. to tell Ed I've now reached the point where I'm doing Walking the Dog podcast.

Well you can tell Justine that Ed did this podcast. Oh did he? Yes. And do you know what Ed Miliband said about my dog when he came on this podcast? Walking Bog Brush. Hello. No he said he looks rather like a toupee. Alistair what do you think of that? What's the most insulting thing you've said about Ray? Why would you want to dred up this pain? I think walking to bog brush gets better than toupee.

What do you make of Ray Allister? Well, I wouldn't have her. Is that very hurtful? Do you know that? It really upsets me. Does it? Yeah. But that's because she's too small for me, and that's even though I've got a small dog.

He? Sorry, he's too small for me. And he's sort of too fluffy, and you can't see his features enough. What I love about Skies and the features. Do you know what I think this is? What? I think you're very competitive. Yeah.

And I think Ray's had a little bit of attention. From? Just the general public. Oh no, I don't care about that. I really don't. Honestly, I quite like that. I like it if this guy's being left alone. When she was a puppy, I promise you, we couldn't walk around here without... Alistair.

Alistair just said he wouldn't have my dog. I'm really upset. I'm just being honest, I'm just saying if I was to go into a dog shop, and all the dogs in the world, All the dogs in the world are on the shelves. No, your dog's nice. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your dog. If you entered into a shop where they sold every dog in the world,

would you pick that dog off the shelf? Possibly not, but you probably have your seat. I would say it was a pleasure. Nice to meet you. Well, he's saying no one would like. I'm not saying nobody. But you're trying to marshal support. No, you asked.

The taste is totally personal. Very personal, yeah. I mean, we've only ever had couple bunnies. Oh, it's personal, all right. You just wouldn't get it in the dog shop. There's character in there, you see? Thank you. If you were only allowed a choice between this dog and that dog, which one would you go?

You've just asked them to choose between them. You see, that is the competitive Alistair Campbell. See you. We disagreed agreeably, me and that gentleman. Yeah, whereas you felt I was being unfair. The most important thing about the dog is the relationship with the owner. And you clearly loved your dog, so that's good. I love my dog. You love your dog.

Everybody's happy. So, sorry, we'll go back to you. You were telling me just about your dad, and you moved to... Lester. Lester. Same school was going, inica. I never really... I didn't really... I didn't really...

I took to school, I took to, I sort of threw myself into school and, yeah, and music and bagpipes and all that stuff. And also the other thing that happened was that having, hello, having left the north, that's when I really became quite obsessed with Burnley and I used to go away a lot and go at the games and stuff. Because you could then, you know, I was hitchhiking around the place. I wasn't unhappy at all, but I just didn't take to Leicester in the way I had to, what I still considered to be sort of, you know, where I came from, as it were. Were you sort of popular and extrovert, or were you quiet and studious? I was quite popular. I was extrovert. I never, ever, ever, ever took my Bernie scarf off at school, ever, apart from P.E. It's a bit sad, isn't it? No, maybe not.

I wore, we had a school uniform and I used to sit in class wearing my Bernie scarf and the blue anorat. But I was quite popular, you know, enough friends. And you were quite a happy child? Yeah, yeah. I was very, I did like, I've always liked work. I've always liked the sort of challenge of work. I mean, I didn't mind. I knew what I was good at at at the school, pretty.

early on I knew I was good at words I knew I was good at languages I was good at maths but I I went down the when it came to A levels I went down the kind of languages route and I'm really glad I did that and then I went to Cambridge and after that my parents stayed in Leicester for a bit but then they moved they went back they went to Hull my dad was a vet with the PDSA after the Ministry of Agriculture and then they he then they went back to your Yorkshire back to a place near Skippton. I think Yorkshire was where my dad felt, apart from his own where he came from, the Hebrides, I think Yorkshire was, that's where he wanted

his ashes scatters and all that stuff. You went to Cambridge, was that? I didn't like that. Did you not? Why? I found it. I've never been a very, I don't like, I didn't like the stuffiness of it. I think it's where I first became really conscious of the whole power of the class structure in Britain. You know, the kind of the Yahoo's and all that stuff. I found that difficult. And also, to be absolutely frank, I was, you know, drinking, even by student levels, I'd say drinking way, way, way too much. And just, I presume that was because I was basically not very happy there.

I'm still glad I went. And also that even though I say that I don't like the whole kind of class thing, I mean, the truth is that, you know, when Gillian Keegan said recently, it doesn't matter, nobody remembers what you, what A levels you did, what qualifications, etc. I mean, while there's some truth in that, there is also, I'm afraid, a lot of truth in the fact that if you've got an Oxford degree, it's still a big advantage in life, I'm afraid. Alistair, what's going on here? We've got another dog.

It's a lassie. Lassie's joined us. Oh, there's the owner. She's really beautiful. What's the name? It's very lovely, Ruffy. Ruffy, Alastair, this is Ruffy. I've met you at Rachel's place.

I'm Rachel Kinnett and she's my best best mate. I'm Libby. Oh, Libby, how are you? You probably don't. That's so weird. We've just met Ed Milvan's wife and now Rachel Kinnett's best mate.

I mean, this is like... How are you? I'm okay. How are you doing? All right. It was too hot. Did you get in? He's a Shih Tzu, Imperial Shih Tzu.

Sky's getting into the water. Listen, see you later. Bye. Bye. Nice to meet you. Now, how is that? That's proper, isn't it? Oh, sky, we should say, has just... Found water. We used to get really worried about the sky

because she'd dive into places like this. She once ran into Windermere and changed. ducks right across the thing. We were apt. And I was literally, it was in the middle of winter. And I stripped off. I was down to my this to dive in because we were convinced she'd gone.

And it's funny, they sort of know when to stop. She suddenly just stopped and turned around and came back. Sky! Come on, darling. You want to get out. Come on, here you go. Here you go. There's better.

This shit's better. This podcast is sponsored by Pet Plan, who help keep the nation's dogs happy and healthy. There was so much to think about when I got my dog, Raymond, toilet training, grooming, food, and just how many belly rubs can one woman reasonably be expected to give to a shih Tzu every day. But one thing I've never had to worry about is paying for veterinary care, because I decided to ensure Raymond with Pet Plan, who are the UK's number one pet insurance provider. Oh, don't get jealous, Raymond, of course you're still my number one. Just a tad on the high

Maintenance side. Terms, conditions and excesses apply. Pet Plan is a trading name of Allian's Insurance PLC. Oh my God, look at the physique of these guys. Look at what? Look at the physique of these guys. I used to look like that in the olden days. You still got it? Yeah, a 66-year-old version of it. That guy had an eight-pack, didn't he? That was a professional athlete if ever saw one. Don't you think? Come on, Baba. I like it when men do that. What, take the shirts off?

No. What? No, I just mean, I think women are very good at complimenting and they're comfortable with praising each other physically. You know, whereas I didn't do it to his face. No, that's true. I didn't say you look lovely, you've got a lovely physique. No, but you said it to me and I think a lot of men might struggle with that.

Oh, right. They might see that as... No, because I think when I see a physique, I think of all the work that's got into it. He's an athlete, he's a proper runner, and he, uh, that's what he lives for. You were saying about Cambridge, yeah, you didn't much. Yeah, didn't much like it, no.

Do you know I met Jacob Rees-Mogg when he was an undergraduate? And I was, went to stay with a friend. I'll never forget it, Alisa, because I always remembered this boy, Jacob. Or was he like he is now? like he is now? Well, she knocked on the door and it was the most extraordinary thing. I heard a voice saying, come. And I thought, I don't know any students like this. And then he said to me, he said, he asked where I schooled. Where I school? Where I schooled? Where did I school? Is that the word he used?

I think he might have this thing at you. They don't call it school. Yeah, and then... He wanted to know my A level grades. These are three A's, yeah. And I said, no, I got two A's and a B. And I was remember he said, well, I hope the B wasn't in English. And I'm like, do you know, I never forgot this curious boy.

Yeah, there he is. Now he's a former member of the cabinet that erect a country. Oh look I'm gonna put Ray in the stream. There you go see. Were you chippy? Oh very yeah. Yeah, when you're at Cambridge. Yeah, way too chippy, way too way too into you know bit of agro. No, oh look at this. This is the women's pond. Oh, women only and look this is a bloody cue. I should have bought a boxload of books and flogged a few books, don't it? Hey? That is so busy. So at Cambridge, after you graduated, did you always know you were going to... No, not at all.

Get into politics? I'm going to go on with a walk-dog podcast, didn't I clue. Did you know you were going to go into politics? No, I wasn't very political back then. If I was anything, I was slightly anti-politics and a bit anarchic, not an anarchic and going around and sort of smashing things. things up but well you did something you did head butt things I did yeah used to headbut cigarette machines why do you why did you why did you do that I don't know I don't

know very silly probably to show that I could I don't know what a crazy thing to do I once headbutted the door and I ended up using stitches above both eyes I've got this picture of me with this it's actually the end of term and it was a matter was you know May ball another ridiculous institution and I'm there with this huge great bandage right around my head I don't know why I did that it must have been some of some of anger inside that do you think so I think so came out in different ways were you quite angry yeah I was yeah why do you think you're happy you're angry because I didn't like I think this could be sort of post-factor rationalisation I think I

I had a real feeling that I didn't like this kind of structure, this societal structure, that Cambridge and Oxford sort of represent or... It doesn't mean to say, by the way, there aren't some amazing people there, teaching and studying and all that. But I just... I don't know, I didn't... It wasn't for me. You ended up joining the Mirror Group as a trainee. Yeah.

Well, I had a kind of year doing... Doing really weird things like roulette. dealer, Bosca. Yeah. Yeah, it's the only time I've been sat. Yeah. But you're a good roulette dealer. How do you get that job?

I saw an advert and I was sitting on the tube. So an advert in the evening standard. Um, hello. Hello. Hello. Oh, I like that, do you know those border terriers, Alistair? I love them. They've got something of the sort of R-A-F about them, those dogs.

Oh yeah. Do you know what I mean? Is that what you do? Do you look at dogs and put them into military categories? The sky is definitely not special forces. And so you did your weird jobs, your roulette, and then your brief career writing erotic fiction. That was previous. And when you were working for the mirror in Devon, that was when you met Fiona.

That was when you met Fiona. Correct. Did you sort of know as soon as you saw her? No, sort of drifted into it in a way, but very, very quickly. Yeah. I think if you just said to me then, do you think we'll be together for like four decades plus? I'd have said, maybe. If you'd have said to me, do you think she only will end up loving the dog?

so much that the dog will barely walk when we're out without her and they said no because she wasn't a dog person at all she had a cat called kiss kiss when I first met her and I don't I'm not really a cat person no we were very very lucky it was like I mean we're really thrown together because we literally was staring at each other across a two desk in a porter cabin for the entire training program

so were you friends first did you get them by stealth and think oh I'll be friends no no it was pretty pretty full on quite quickly I'd say well we then got sent to the same local paper together so four people five people in the newsroom we were two of them we found a place to live together

and that was it and we've sort of been together ever since which is very very lucky is that the right way to say it no no I'm very lucky I beg you pardon sorry I always get that bit wrong in these totally unconfected podcast situations I'd say we've both done pretty well with each other but I think I've done better I think I'm quite difficult to live with why because of my moods because of my obsessiveness because of my pathological

fear of being bored yeah I'm quite difficult we've had a lot of ups and downs most of them caused by me but she's pretty amazing she's pretty amazing woman And the dog is now the latest recipient of her tender loving care. Sky, what you eat at all? I'm interested in how you manage your moods because I, you wrote a book, we'll discuss your other book, obviously. But you wrote a book Living Better. Yeah. And I found that so helpful that book.

I loved it. Good. Do you want to be the bit where I, where I was beating myself up physically? I was just over there. Yeah. Was it just after you'd stopped working for... Yeah. Well, you'd left Downing Street essentially.

It wasn't Tony Blair as Gordon Brown by that stage, but... No, it's still Tony. Oh, was it? Yeah, you'd left political life essentially, or you'd left that. And you had this sort of... Crash. Yeah, and it was here on the heath, wasn't it? And what happened then? Well, we were walking literally about just over there, 50, 100 yards away. and I just started punching myself in the face and the friend was standing there and looking at

I mean I've given them some hard time some sort of bad moments in her life but as soon as I've seen her actually sort of put her hands on her face and looked terrified and I was just punching myself in the face and I think what it was about was I just had this I've been going through this really long depressive episode I just I kind of felt it was never ever ever going to stop and so I don't know what I was doing but it was really it was a bit of a breakthrough moment though because as I was doing it I was obviously whatever my irrational mind at the time was doing my rational mind was saying I've got to get this I've got to see somebody I've got to sort of this out I can't go on like this and we went back and I said I've got to see

somebody I can't. And Philip Gould who was my closest friend he he recommended this guy who I saw a few days later and I saw him for years after that and I still see him every now and then. I'm interested in how the sort of strategies you use which are very helpful and the whole jam jar thing. Yeah well it's sort of it was a woman I did a documentary for the Beebe on depression and their idea was go around, talk to different people, different parts of the world, and try different things to deal with depression, find something new. Hey, presto, final scene, throw the antidepressants in the bin and walk into the sunset. Happy ever after. That was the sort of hope they had. And I said, well, that's never going to happen, but I'm happy to make the film. Went off. And the jam jar, it's not my idea. It was a woman called.

woman called Janine Austin, who's a Brit living in Canada. And essentially what it is, is it's a sort of, you have a jam jar. Oh, look, she's off now. So essentially what it is, is you look at you, you take a jam jar, the bottom of the jam jar, you've got sediment from a homemade jam, and that's your genes, that's never going to change, always going to be there. And the rest of the jam jar is your life filling up with billions of experiences and thoughts and ideas and good things and bad things.

And her thing was that most of the time most people are managing just about. But when they don't manage, it's because there's too much going on. Jam jar explodes and you become mentally ill, right? Mm-hmm. And she said instead of trying to undo what's inside the jam jar, the past, build on the jam jar to extend it. And so for me, I've actually got, I'm now having real jam jar on my desk. I have a drawing next to it, which is my jam jar.

And so you've got the jam jar there. Then the first thing is FFF. That's Fiona Family Friends. Make sure you work at your own relationships, key relationships. And that's hard. But I know for a fact, if we're getting on, my life's better. If the kids are happy, my life's better. If the few people I would count as very, very close friends are there and I see them as being close, I'm happy.

And then I'm onto things like meaningful, and the next one is MA, meaningful activity, that's work to make a living, but it's also work to make a difference. Then I go diet, sleep exercise, music, bagpipes, Burnley Football Club, Sky, my bike, all the different than my books. And then I go to thematic, curiosity, creativity, writing.

And what happens is that if I'm feeling, And by the way, it doesn't always work, but if I feel like I'm going into a dive, I get my jam jar out and I just think, okay, I feel like shit, but today I'm going to try and do something that ticks every single one of these. So read a book, not a newspaper, listen to music, not the news, play my bagpipes, write a tune, write something, get in touch with somebody to talk about, you know, a friend you haven't seen for a while or something. It's interesting as well, isn't it, that your passions, and you've said you're quite obsessive in some ways, you like things absolutely and passionately. And I find it interesting that music and football are both big passions, because both of those things, you have to be completely focused in the moment.

You're in the now. They root you in the now. And I wonder if that allows you to pause your racing mind a bit. Maybe, maybe. The thing I say about football, certainly. How did Sky get in there? That way. Come on.

She's so lovely. She is. No, Sky's definitely in the jam jar. You see, and you can add to your jam jar. Would you, I don't think you'd have Ray in your jam jar, though. No. But if you were in the FFF bit, then your dog's part of that as well.

No, Ray's not coming in the jam jar yet. When you left, you struggled a bit, didn't you, to sort of adjust to civilian life? Yeah. I think it was in your diary. Someone had said, you can't just spend the rest of your life being Alastair Campbell. Yeah, Matthew Freud said that.

I'm not sure I agree with him, though. No, I'm not sure I do. If we all sort of agree that it's healthy to prioritise the climb over the summit, Yeah. You've done the climb and it was hard work. And now you're at the summit.

Surely that's exactly what you should be doing is being Alistair Campbell. I mean, what I think he meant by that was, and he was right about this, don't just trade off your paths. And I think he also meant, look, you ought to be doing another really big job somewhere. Okay.

And that's the bit I've decided I don't particularly want to do. Alastair, she's doing a poo. I think it might be in a wee. Huh? I think it might be in a wee, but I'll take out my... I'm not going to split hairs with you. Yeah, I think it was a wee. Alastair, what do you think of Peter Mandelsohn?

Do you think I'd like him? Yeah, I think you'd enjoy a dog walking. What's he like? Well, he's... Why'd you ask that question in such a suspicious way? Do I sound suspicious? A little bit. Well...

I think you quite like him, yeah. He's very funny. He's very charming. He said of Tony Blair. to you that he's... Ruthless. Did he say something like Tony Blair is selfish, but brilliant at not making you think he's selfish?

Yeah, something like that. Is that true? I don't think he's... I know what Peter means by that. My favourite headline about Tony ever was in an Australian magazine. And the headline was a nice kind of bastard. And I think what it meant was,

he's a really nice guy, which he genuinely is. He's a very nice guy. He's properly motivated. He's got decent values, etc. But he knows what he wants, and he's very, very discernent. And I think another skill he's got that's incredibly important in politics, he is very good at making people feel good about what they're doing, whereas I look at this lot.

I mean, they spend the whole time telling teachers their shit, doctors their shit. You know, it's not the way. the way to motivate people. Well, he persuaded you to do that job when both your partner Fiona and Neil Kinnock were saying, I don't think you should do it. And he flew over

to interrupt your holiday. Yeah. Yeah. Hey-ho. I want to, just say to you, I also found it really, we don't have to dwell on this for too long if it's going to make you sad, but I loved what you wrote about

your brothers as well. I lost my sister and it's kind of a weird thing losing a sibling because do you know Alasso I don't think a day goes by when I don't think of her oh no not so do you have to feel that yeah totally well I think I think my older brother in particular Donald because he had schizophrenia and he died both of them died age 62 it was a joke in the family that when I was 61 they were to get through the next year they both died age 62 but with Donald it was because he had schizophrenia and 40 years years on really you know tough antipsychotics it wears down your immune system and yeah but I think

about him a lot in part because I he and I learned the bagpipes together with my dad they're both now dead and I get I still feel whenever I play the pipes now I feel a sense of connection and when Donald died he you know he was a bit of a he was a bit of a hoarder with my sister and I when we were clearing out his flat we found loads of kilts and cap badges and practice chanters and sets of pipes and but he left me in his will the one pipe the set of pipes that you really loved the ones that were the best

shall I now play I know that's the set I play now thank you thank you he meant mine not yours Alistair Campbell competitive well he might have made yours but he was looking at me and raising for him Funny of that happens a lot more than it's happened so far today, yeah, yeah. Particularly in yesterday, the day before I had dinner at the Estonian Embassy. I went to High Street, Kensington, and I walked down to the thing.

I had five people saying that in that short distance. And this, of course, is rest is politics. Do you know what, I thought there's a dog just like sky, that sky. I thought it was the top. Come on, come on. Come on. You know, you sound like a terrible absentee father. Oh, it's my child.

Well, like David Cameron, when he let his kid in the pub. Yeah, so the podcast, which has been, I get the sense, even your surprise, by the... Oh, totally, yeah. Are you, the level of success? Totally. Because it's never been out of the top five, consistently number one. What are we talking downloads-wise now? I've got a fair idea, but...

Well, I don't... I don't want to undersell you here. No, it's... Well, well... well into the millions every month. I know that even at the sort of December, which he thought was a bit quieter, it was something like six and a half million or something.

And it's really weird how both Rory and I have written these books that are essentially about... And your book, we should say, is called But What Can I Do? This is, and his is called Politics on the Edge. And they're both really about how politics is bust. And people have got to understand that before we can get fixed. And we were both working on them before we got together to do the podcast. those sort of and what's been great is how many young people will listen.

Why don't you do the Albert Hall a third were under 30? I was actually yesterday with, I was doing a thing at Ditchley with some young candidates, both Labor and Tory, who were going to be first-time candidates at the next election. It was quite interesting because, of course, you know, they weren't young young. They weren't that, I didn't know if they didn't be in their 20s, but certainly some in their 30s. And you think for some of them, it's like when I heard Bridget Philipson the other day talking about, hello, when she was growing up, you know, as a sort of beneficiary of all the things that new labour did. I thought, you know, it's literally a different generation. So, but I think it's

the next generation that's really, I've got a, and that's, you know, that's why I do loads of, I'm actually writing a book at the moment about politics for primary school children, so I'm quite enjoying. you get your work ethic from? Well my dad had it. Really? But not in the same way he had a job, you know, and he had a business, he was a vet. But you're very driven. Yeah, definitely, yeah. Why do you think that is? Sometimes people are running from something. Sometimes... Yeah, possibly. I think I keep, I think a lot of it might be, I think it goes back to my jam jar on the meaningful activity bit. Do you know what, Alistair? What? You're very different to how I imagined.

Oh, why? Because I'm not frightened. of you at all and I thought you'd be quite frightening. We're not on a date. Sorry, there was a lady sitting on a bench who just heard me saying that to Alistair. Someone just overheard that. That was rather awkward. It was, isn't it? You've probably got out, did you tell her, oh, Alice, Cam was that I think he, I think he must hit his He was like this woman.

She said, I'm not frightened of you anymore. Bloody hell. I think I just, all these words that I associate with you. Eight pack. Well, what are some of the words that people use? Oh, I don't know. I think they say competitive, driven, ruthless. Yeah, maybe it's a bit.

Fine, warm, funny, soulful. If I was your friend, I imagine you'd be in my top three people to call. It's another, stop saying these ridiculous things in front of other people. If I was your friend, she's going to sit at that bench and say to the woman, you'll never guess what I just heard. No, I'm saying, I think you'd be someone who would help a friend in a crisis. Oh yeah, I'm quite good at that. Are you?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I don't think we have that many friends in the world. But we know who they are and I think we know when we need to help them and they we know who to call on when we need that help I think. What do you think you've learned, you've got three kids. Rory Callum and Grace. What have your kids taught you? What have you learned from them? I don't necessarily mean being a parent.

I mean from them as individuals. I learned from them. I mean, it goes without saying they've got a better understanding of the modern world than I have. And I find that quite useful. I think they have a, I mean, they're very different, but I think they all have a pretty good take on the world that is, you can see how a lot of it does come from who Fiona and I are and what we believe. But at the same time, they've got their own judgments and their own ways of dealing with the world. I mean, I know this is a bit of sort of cliche, but they do.

they do sort of remind you all the time, not in a nasty way, but just by their constant presence in your lives. They remind you that, you know, there's so much, no matter how important it might be along the way, there's so much about professional life that is ephemeral, but this stuff is kind of forever. You know, it's like when we talked about Molly dying, you know, the only people who were there with me, Fiona and the kids, that's it. So, the those kind of really big moments of life and death, then, you know, they matter. And I also, you know, I think I also know, look, families have changed so much because of geography, in fact, we're more dispersed and what have you, but our kids all live near us.

I see them pretty often. And I think there's good and, I think, you know, I was remember when I was at university or not a year in Nice as a student, for example, my paper. parents came out to see me for a few days but apart from that I probably wrote to them every few weeks phone them once a month you know same I remember Cambridge they used to you know reverse charge called and call me back once every Sunday that was it whereas now I think you get this constant sense of connectedness funny enough Rory my oldest son he when the whole whole

kind of Zuckerberg thing first took off and social media etc. And I was kind of quite excited by it because I thought it'd break down the kind of monopoly of the old-fashioned media oligarchs. And I remember what we said, this thing's going to ruin the world. This thing's going to destroy the world. And I, you know, I didn't really understand it, but, you know, so I think that it's just their different take on certain things. Yeah.

I think, I mean, one specific thing, Grace has definitely made me think about the whole kind feminist stuff differently. Alistair, where do you stand when it comes to dogs on the bed? Does Sky sleep with you and Fiona? Yes. She's quite inobtrusive, though. She sort of jumps on. She sort of lies on the edge of the bed.

When she was a puppy, she used to wake me up every morning with literature. And she said, you know what? The other thing I'll say about Sky, she knows when I'm depressed. 100%. she sort of comes up and lies on the pillow in the morning. She knows. And on the sofa as well, if I'm sitting on the sofa, she knows what I'm feeling.

She just comes there and she sort of just sits there. Do you think it's good for your mental health? Oh yeah, definitely, yeah. I know this is projecting yourself onto your dog, but I sometimes worry she gets depressed. I sometimes worry she's really low. Alastair, I completely feel that as well about Ray. like when I'm crying and he licks my tears really manically.

But then I think, is he absorbing all this pain? Yeah. Hello, you're right. I love your podcast. Thank you. It's amazing. Thank you very much. I didn't even say it to you.

Didn't he even say what about hers? Alistair. What? Remind me never to play a board game at your house. So basically, what's monopoly like? Sky is more popular than Ray. and my podcast more popular than yours.

Your podcast is more popular than God's. God doesn't do a podcast. Well, Gary Lineca hasn't had a conversation with him yet. He's on to it. Do you think it's made you calmer, more astraying, the podcast? Yeah. I think so, I think so.

Hello? Oh, you've got to go around a quick fit? Oh, fine, yeah, yeah, fine. We'll be back in ten minutes. Yeah, yeah. Bye, bye. Come on. right i'm under order now

sky come on sky what thing do you most hope people would say about you when you walked out of a room don't care oh mrs don't care do you not not really no i think that's quite a superpower i don't really care um grace always says that's something she really admires in you is

that your ability to to sort of park all that stuff, you know, that concern over what other people think. You're right. I mean, I wouldn't want them to think. Go, he's a little twat, sort of, you know. I wouldn't, yeah, I don't mind if they sort of think, oh, he seems all right. But, hello. Do you like her dog? What?

Do you like her dog? Yeah. I love a dog. Do you know my dog's better? Yeah, that's a yeah. Perfect. Thank you. It's a route. Alistair Campbell.

How competitive are you? It's a route. So, okay, what do you most hope people would say when you leave the room? No, I honestly don't care. It depends what it is. If I was talking at school and I walked out, if the kids all said, oh, that was quite interesting, that'd be good. If I was at a place where I was trying to persuade somebody to,

to hand over a large check to your mental health charity and they write the checkout. I think that's good. But if it's sort of some, you know, chatting class events somewhere where I don't care, why should you care? It's like why you don't care what somebody says on social media? Why would I care about somebody just sort of, you know, you bump into randomly at some do right there? Look at that big old one.

You're him. No, he's young. Just about you. Come on, I know, Alastair's under all. I nearly went Ali. Sky. The only people are allowed to call me, the only people who call me Ali

that doesn't annoy me. Yeah. Fiona, my mum, my sister, my brothers, who are not dead. Some members of other members of the family. Tony calls me Ali.

Some of the team at number 10 called me Ali. That's about it. I preferment, I don't know, I can't like my name, Were you quite a good boss? Very. You see, I cared what they thought. I wanted them to think I was good to work for,

I wanted to think I knew what I was doing. The one thing that I think you perhaps struggle with is praise. Yeah. I don't get the feeling you kind of know how to accept praise. Would that be right? Something in that, yeah. I just think a little bit of it's a bit otios. Also, I don't...

Hello. I was watching the Tyson Fury series the other night. Have you seen it? I am obsessed. Isn't it great, Alison? Well, I'm only halfway through, but you know when he goes to the island man? Oh, I know when he goes to the island man. And he comes off the stage and he's absolutely...

You can see he's absolutely buzzing, right? And people are saying that was fantastic. I don't get that. When we did the Albert Hall, I think the team were really disappointed with the goalhanger guys, because they came off and it had gone. really really well and I just as soon as I've done it I'm kind of on to the next thing so no you're right I don't really like it's not I tell you what I don't that the having not somebody saying to me like you just said I really like your

book I find it helpful I like that right but does that mean more or less than the fact that it went to number one you know not sure I do with a living better book to be fair I get a lot of people saying it's helped them with their depression so that does I do like that like when we're in France where it's the exception rather than the rule that people will recognise you right sometimes I absolutely love that and other times I think this is a bit weird you know maybe I'm maybe I do miss that a bit but honestly didn't I think it's more important what you're well-known for yeah well my

dad used to always say to me I mean he died before that culture had exploded but he to say the trouble is now people don't want to do they want to be. And I think there's some truth in that. Yeah, it's like, I mean, I, you know, I wouldn't want to be known because I was on some sort of, you know, I mean, it's possible to go onto something like Love Island and come off it and change the world in a positive way. Is that what you're going to do then?

I'm not. Hello. What a lovely pug. Oh, thank you. Oh, hello. Put one onto your arm. I thought that was a handbag. Which is, yes.

Was she doing this better looking dog? That one, not that one. I did that for you, Emily. I thought you've got to get one vote. Alistair. Because I was so far ahead. You will keep on and on and on. Yeah.

Until you get the result you want. Well, I invented this new word in, but what can I do? Percivilliance. I've definitely got that. The kids have got that as well. I mean, Grace has got it in space. I remember once when she was really upset

by a terrible review. you and I said what's the point of worrying about it it turned out the guy went to Eaton so there's some Etonian twat it's probably jealous of the fact that you're making people laugh and you're selling out in Edinburgh so you decides he has to do that partly because he doesn't like you for whatever reason partly because I'm your dad blah blah blah who gives a shit and the next night that she did the show was the best I'd ever seen her that's Percivilience oh Alistair well we're

getting to Campbell Miller towers now And I've really loved our walk. Good. Do you want to come and see if she's in? I think I don't have a key, so she'd better be. Just wanted to say hello. That was a struggle. This is Raymond.

That was a struggle. Alistair, Fiona, but he's been so competitive at the whole time. He's been all stopping people saying which dog do you prefer? Which, has she been in the water? A little bit. I hope we get to meet one. We've got more time to talk. See you soon.

Alistair, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Pleasure. Left every second of it. You didn't meet, I was hoping we might, you know, Ricky Javais is often wandering around. He loves cows, loves them. Well, he might have Ray. I got Alastair Campbell. That's enough for me. I'm really happy with what I've got.

Good. Alistair, I really loved meeting you. And I love Sky. And I hope that Ray and Sky can become playmates. Yeah, okay. Okay, we'll see. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walk and, The Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed and do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.