Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Alun Cochrane

Episode Date: December 14, 2018

This week Emily heads up to Manchester to visit her co-host on the Frank Skinner show - comic Alun Cochrane. They go out for a stroll with his beautiful whippet Lucky. He talks about how losing his dad at a young age propelled him into being funny for a living, why he admires Frank’s approach to stand up and why he’s a bit of an eccentric at heart.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's interesting because I, well, I say it's interesting. It's interesting if you're even remotely interested in this next thought. Even as I'm saying it, I'm losing interest in it. Can that be the trail? This week on Walking the Dog, I went out with a very good pal of mine, comic Alan Cochran. Alan and I are co-hosts on the Frank Skinner show on Absolute Radio. And I'd heard him talk about his whipit lucky, but I was dying to meet her. So I travelled up to Manchester to go for a stroll with them both.

We talked about Alan's childhood, why he went into comedy, the importance of joking about difficult things, and why he's actually more eccentric than people realise. I've worked with Alan every week for the last six years, and yet I felt I got to know him even better on this walk. And I found out he's not joking, he genuinely does put on a flat cap to take his whip it for a walk. I really hope you enjoy it, and obviously you can listen to Alan every Saturday on the Frank Skinner show on Absolute Radio. If you like this episode of Walking the Dog, by the way, please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I'm getting out of here now. Here's Alan. I'm going to use the key to close the door. Actually, you could close the door behind me, couldn't you?

All right. See you later, son. Be good. Okay, Alan, I'm following you. Yes. Can I just say... I'm really enjoying your dog walking look today. Yeah, it's a bit northern man in a northern town, isn't it? Would you like to talk? Northern Village. The listeners through your look today for walking the dog.

Yeah, I have a solid-looking brown leather boot. That's a habit I've picked up off you. Plural garments being described in the singular. So instead of boots or jeans, you would have a boot and a trouser. Oh, I look. What did Lucky do there? She saw a cat. That's one of her habits is to go a bit wild.

She bolted, like every man I've ever known. So yeah, then I have a chino. I've got a... I wouldn't call it. I would think of a chino is a bit in early days of Microsoft, whereas your look is a bit cooler. It's a bit more French resistance. I'll take that.

I've got a French resistance chino. A woolly jumper covered by a green, what I call army jacket, which I think I may have owned for 20. years. That tells you something, doesn't it? Isn't it weird when you get older and you start just going, it's not just a decade, it's decades. It's a lifetime. And then out, finally, the Piescer resistance topped off with... With a flat cap, I believe.

Because... And I'm making no apologies for it. You can take the boy out of Yorkshire. Yes, indeed. We should, or I should, introduce the podcast. Oh, okay. If you want to do things all conventional, like yeah, fine. This is Walking the Dog. I'm Emily Dean and I'm very excited because I'm with Alan Cochran, who you might know if you listen to the Frank Skinner show as being the co-hosts of the show, but also you'll just know him in general because he's a very fabulous stand-up.

And is that how you like to be called stand-up? I'd like to... I love the idea that I like to be called a very fabulous stand-up. Would you like to be called that? That was in my contracts for doing this, wasn't it? How do you like to be called comic, stand-up comedian? You know Frank Skinner who we work with? Yes.

He explained to me and I never knew this that there's a distinction for him, I think, between comedian and comic. Can you explain that? It's yet another bit of his resistance to Americanisations creeping into the world of UK stand-up comedy. Is that what it is? I think so, yeah. I always just refer to myself as a comedian.

I've just realised. Oh, yeah. There's someone we haven't introduced yet, Alan. Charlie. No, Charlie's our producer by the way. I'm sorry. Who have we not introduced? Oh, Lucky the Whippet.

Can you introduce your dog? This is Lucky. She's a Whippet. She's, I think she's eight in human years. She looks great. She's looking all right, isn't she? She's pretty attractive. Also, she looks quite young for her age.

And when I interviewed Adam Buxton, he got quite upset because I said, he said his dog Rosie was four, I think. and I said, God, she looks much older. And there was a pause. And then he came back to it later and said, yeah, I'm just kind of offended that you said, my dog looks old. Do you think that's a weird conditioning and, like,

humans don't like being told that they look old? Can I say we're in the north of England? We're in the north of England. We're in Manchester. And we're in... The dog is about to open her bowels. She's absolutely beautiful, look. And where did you get lucky?

It's a strange moment. to admire her looks but yeah fine she's got good legs if that's your thing oh she's she shakes when she goes to the bathroom isn't she who doesn't oh you're doing the poo bags do you want me to do them you've got your hands full then it's fine I'm on it

I'm on it like a carb on it I used to do jokes about this moment in life when I first got a dog which was when did you get lucky that's one of the best things about having a dog called lucky is that you can then use the phrase get lucky all the time I just realised what I said.

When did I get lucky? Ask me no questions. I'll tell you no noise. I felt really funny now. I think that's the first time in my life I've ever made a joke. Like I've ever done a joke. It was an accidental one, though. I don't think you can take any credit for it.

No. Tell me about when you got lucky, Al. We got lucky about seven years ago. Yeah, it's one of the unintended consequences of changing her name to Loki. There we go. Poo in the bin. Job done. Your other half earlier told me her Lucky's real name. Oh yeah. Which is? It's quite a big handle because she's pure blood. It's Lacey, witcherty moonbeam goddess. Oh god now people know a lineage they'll be able to Google it. Oh my goodness.

OK, we've done the hazards now. We've crossed all the hazards. Now we're just going to walk into this bit here. It's going to be perfect. Come on, Lucky. Oh, it's a bit wet, though. That's OK. Part of the dog walk?

It is, yeah. We got her, I think my son. Yeah, I think we just decided. At the time, I quite liked running. I thought it would be quite a good thing to have a dog and go running. with and then we did some investigation. I'd never had a dog.

My wife's family had had dogs, but, you know, we kind of wanted one that would be gentle around children, but not too exerting and not too worried if it was left in the house sometimes for a little while. Yeah. Because some are really high maintenance, and whippets are really not. They're really quite low maintenance while still not being zero. but I think if you want a zero maintenance dog you don't want a dog

so don't get a dog but I don't even go running now but I quite like walking her although when I tell my jokes about her on the rare occasions that I do when we first got her I developed lots of material about having my first dog are you taking off the lead out yeah I'm really bold like that she'll probably not venture very far

Oh, look. Do you know, she's so gentle, isn't she? Yeah, she's a bit timid today. Is she? Is she? Is she? Is she? She's thinking, why's he walking? He never does anything.

He spends most of his time on the couch. And who's he talking to? He never talks to anyone. That's what she's thinking. She is so beautiful. Come on, girl. Come on, Lucky. Oh, she's lovely out.

So, sorry, you were saying, yeah, about... Oh, I don't know. I was boring on about something. Yeah, when I tell jokes about the dog, I feel like I really don't walker enough to earn the right to tell these jokes. So did you not have any pets when you were growing up at? I had a goldfish called W-U-M, because apparently it was meant to be called William and I couldn't say it properly. So the goldfish became called one. And we found it dead in the ball when we got back after seeing the film Condor.

man so those two are always connected for me always oh wow what's this coming up ahead we've got a bit of it looks like a bit of a lurchery hello hello yes it is a lurcher hello hello hello good gorgeous with a really brilliant wonky hanging out tongue they all know each other the sighthounds were you born in glasgow i was born in glasgow and then moved to airshire uh to kill winning a place called cool winning. Is that in Scotland? Yeah, that's in air sure. Can you cut out where I say is that in Scotland? Oh please don't. Um, come a girl. And then? Yeah, and then we moved to, um, for various reasons. Uh, there was quite a bit of moving in my childhood. We moved from there to Somerset and then from Somerset to Yorkshire. And why did you move? Uh, I think it was basically, my mum and dad moved

from Glasgow to Ayrshire for, I don't know, family reasons or work or wanted to live in Ayrshire, I guess. And then my dad died and my mum met somebody else and they decided to move to Somerset. And then... And you would have been like four or five then or something maybe? I was four when my dad died. But I think I was a bit older than that when we moved to Somerset. And then we moved from Somerset to Yorkshire just before my eighth birthday. So that's probably the place you have the strongest memory of in some ways.

Of where? It's growing up in Yorkshire. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I remember, it's a really weird memory. I remember hearing my Scottish accent for the first time in Yorkshire, even though I'd lived in England for two years in Somerset. And the kids in Yorkshire were calling me haggis and flying Scotsman and all this stuff. And I remember suddenly at dawning on me,

Oh, they can hear it. Oh, and now I can hear it. Like, it all slows down like a John Woo film in that moment in my memory now. And did you think I better lose this, so I sound like everyone else? Well, it does seem that way now that I talk like this, doesn't it? But I don't remember thinking, oh, I should lose it. Because I hadn't in Somerset, but I guess, you know. So you said you were four when your dad died.

Yeah. Do you remember that at all, Al? Yeah. Oh, she's after a squirrel. We just almost hit a moment of deep emotional sentimentality and then thankfully nature kicked in and the dog chased the squirrel. So, um...

Oh, we're at my dad's death, were we? Are you okay talking about that now? Yeah, I don't mind. Are you sure? It's a long time ago. I think it would be a horrible double standard of me to say that I didn't want to talk about it now given that I quite often lob it in like a hand grenade to conversations with people whose dads I know for a fact are alive.

Well, you do do that and you know what? I've learnt, I like that you do that and, well, I want to get back to your dad, but just quickly I want to say to you that I've noticed it's something you do and I talk, I lost, as you know, my sister and my parents, and I sometimes make jokes about that as if to say to people, it's okay to joke about this. Because I think the instinct that you're obeying there, and I might be wrong, but when I do it, the thing that I'm doing is saying, hey, it's okay to talk about this, both seriously and, you know, with a certain amount of levity. And I think that's what you're doing. You're sort of sending them a signal saying, I'm happy to discuss this. It's not all ring-fenced. And I think some people get startled because they don't want that.

They don't want that chat. Good girl. Oh, look, she's... Oh, they look lovely together. She's been visited. Lockhe's met... Is that a Whippet, owl? Is that a great...

What does that do? It looks like a mixture. The hounds all know each other as hounds, though, don't they? They definitely say hello in a different way. See ya. I'm learning what about the sight hounds? So you have a memory of your dad dying, didn't you? I've got a few memories of him.

I have memories of the sort of the aftermath. of him dying and my mum meeting somebody else and all that stuff. We can go right here if you like. It's quite a nice little bit along here. One of the things that I'm really grateful for is that my mum brought us up feeling free about talking about it. It was never a sort of cordoned off, let's not discuss, thing, which I think is really deadly.

I think, you know, if you grow up thinking that there are some areas that are fenced, off forever. That seems to me to be like the recipe for growing up mad about something. Did it happen quite suddenly? Well, yes and no. He got cancer and then was ill for a while and then died. But, you know, at four it was suddenly to me because a lot of it, as it was taking place,

I didn't know much about. How do you think your dad dying, how? how did it impact you when you were growing up? Do you think it changed you? Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. And I don't do a huge amount of in the psychiatrist's chair stuff, but I imagine if I did, there's a really easy join from my dad dying to me doing comedy for a living.

I think, you know, he died, we moved to England, Whenever we went back to Scotland, my relatives that knew him would talk about him and say how funny he was. Oh, he's a great bloke. It's such a shame. You know, it's a terrible thing about your dad. You know, what a fantastic laugh he was. And they would tell me about, you know, jokes that he would tell and impressions that he would do nicked off the tell. And so I just think it's really obvious that. And also my mum and my brothers are funny.

So I think if you grow up in quite a funny family where humour is elevated above other things, I suppose it's like if you grow up in a sport family and you don't care how funny the rest of your class are, who's the best at football? But in my family, it was like, who's the funniest in the class? Yeah. And how funny was your dad was often discussed.

And so I'm fairly sure she'll be back. Wow. I hate to say something incredibly obvious but lucky's fast isn't she? Whippets are really fast hold the front page Wait to you see the greyhounds I'll tell you what else are surprisingly fast have you seen poodles run God they can really shift Really? Oh man they're among the few dogs that give her a little bit of a run for her money

because sometimes she gets a bit cocky and assumes that she's going to outrun things so she'll bark and then think that it's play and then a couple of times she's sort of looked over her shoulder and gone oh god that whip it's still there whip it poodle you know why I got that word wrong because I was trying to not swear it's okay we're last swearing don't we oh really yeah it's occasionally it could be the most bleak podcast you've ever put out well you could be one I think one of our

podcast I can't remember there's about two which have the red explicit mark on it oh brilliant and we'll have to remember who those are you could join that that would be great elusive group the few general public members that know my stuff probably think I mainly do jokes about pizza toppings and really, really sort of, have you ever noticed stuff? Then he does a dog walk podcast and turns the air blue. That would be fun. I remember seeing something and it was really interesting to me that someone said, what sort of comedy. There was someone, I can't remember what they had, but they were saying they get very stressed and easily, and there's something they found about watching stand up, made them anxious,

seeing someone manic and needy and sort of, and they said, can you recommend it? anyone who's not going to stress me out but will make me laugh. And someone said, you and Daniel Kitson. Oh, that's nice. Which I thought was really nice because they said, look, he's funny, but he's not neurotic, essentially. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's nice to have these chats because, like,

you forget that you do stand up in the way you like to see stand up. And every now and again, I'll go on YouTube and watch comics that I like. And it's interesting you say that, because they're nearly all, laid back is the wrong word that sounds like they don't give enough effort but what I really like is a sort of I don't know I suppose an assuredness or like

in football terms I like to see a comic who's got a lot of time on the ball somebody that can you know trap it and look up yeah yeah see who they're distributing it to and then if it's needed they'll keep the ball for a while

and I think this analogy may be running out. Well, I've got another analogy, which is if you were going to have a song which would sum up, I think it would be the difference between we have all the time in the world and I've got to get through this. Yeah. Although

there's a few audience members at my show that probably think my stuff is more like golden slumbers, which is a great song. I'm not knocking it. When was that first sense of you being funny? Do you remember telling a joke at school or, you know, like Matt Lucas who I interviewed on this podcast, he said he really vividly remembered being at school and doing an impression of the teacher and all the boys laughing.

And he felt, oh my God, this is a thing. Oh yeah, I had loads of moments like that. Yeah, tons of them. Really weird, because I read an interview with Ian Hyslop once. This is probably 20 years ago. And he described the same moment where he fell in a puddle at school and everyone was laughing. And he thought, do you know what, it's not that bad in here? Like, for the amount of positive attention that I'm getting, this puddle's all right. And I had loads of moments like that. I played, when we moved to Yorkshire,

I played football for a team in a place called Batty Ford, B-A-T-T-Y-E-F-R-D. But it was back then it was Batty Ford Boys Club. It's now called Batty Ford Sporting Club, I believe, and girls are just as welcome there as boys. there was an awards due so each year they used to give out like player of the year most improved player of the year

and clubman of the year right and I won Clubman of the Year and Peter Swain who was the manager shout out to Peter Swain I don't even know if he's still alive but shout out anyway he started his speech about Clubman of the Year

he said I've not been great to this lad I gave him man of the match one week and dropped him the next week and I thought oh that happened to me and then he said he's undeterred he's a really funny member of the squad and I thought it's me it was really interesting

and then he said he comes down with a new joke every week and the lads all think he's hilarious and I thought this is definitely me and it was me and it was a real moment of you know that's my brand yeah yeah I think so yeah

well that's how others is when others perceive you in a way it confirms what you suspect about yourself perhaps yeah yeah I mean, I feel like we should temper it with some of the many stories where this has gone wrong but we'll leave those for later.

But that's because you like to do that anyway. I do, yeah. Well... You like to dismantle. Yes. Yeah, I think there might be a certain level of career self-harm that has gone into that. See, I consider it to be almost like a handbrake on arrogance

because I have quite a big dislike of arrogance and when people come on, like, you know there are some people that can't bear the flavour of coriander, there's some people that it tastes like there's, I don't know, bleach or something poisonous in their dinner. Those people that hate coriander, they have such a violent reaction to coriander.

I have a similar thing to comics who think they're important or cool or interesting or whatever it is, those guys that are like, yeah, I've got all the answers, you guys need to listen to me. Can you just say something silly? Something silly where you're the victim? I mean, I suppose some people think of this about me,

but that's because it's such a weird thing, isn't it, to do? Two people can look at the same thing and come up with extremely different verdicts on it. Which way off? I'm straight up here. As regards me becoming a comming. comedian. I honestly don't think it was that much about attention seeking. People sometimes say, oh yeah, you comics, and I think there's every stripe of comedian. I spend time in dressing rooms

with a really varied population. Like, there's arrogant ones, there's really shy ones, there's, you know, all of the, there's even some thick ones, which you wouldn't expect, but there are. But, you know, the majority I think are probably a, above average on the IQ. If you want to find out who those are, there'll be a special limited edition podcast. Downloadable on our Patreon account. 799. That's not true.

Do you think you have to be clever to be a stand-up? Not always, no. I think you probably do to be a really good one that I like, but to be a jobbing one, no, I don't think so. You think you just have to be super confident and very thick skin. But I think the thing that really drew me towards it was that it didn't look like a real job. Like I think I almost have a weird lack of confidence about participating in the real world. And so I kind of thought, oh, that looks like a thing.

I remember this, even watching comics on telly, like when I was a kid, if Mike Yarwood or someone was on, or somebody on Wogan or Jimmy Cricket or something, like I remember thinking, oh, that looks like a job that would be much more desirable than all the other grown-ups seem to have. And so it was massively about job avoidance for me to become a community. I don't know if you're conscious of that sort of eight or nine, are you? Like I get that when you're a teenager and you're starting to think about life, but that to me, I don't know, you tell me,

but as a kid, maybe you'll just think, this feels nice. Yeah, where are we going to go? Yeah, I think so. And then I think when I became a teenager, I think I sort of sublimated some of that and got rid of it. and I studied acting instead because I thought that was kind of next door to it. And you did drama, we should say as well, in terms of basic biographical information. Obviously your dad had died, you were living with your mum and your stepdad and your two brothers.

Yeah, my mum fell pregnant with my youngest brother, who has a different dad to me. I'm not sure I would call him a stepdad, but that's probably just semantics. But yes, we lived with him and then... we moved to Yorkshire and then we separated from him and then actually he died as well my mum's amazing I should say at this point she had a lot to cope with didn't she yeah but she's amazing yeah and one of the things that I think is amazing

and important about her to me in terms of you know what what she put in I think she never really let us use it as a get out of jail free card, any of us. Like, it was always just, well, you know, we can't do anything but get on with it. Like, not that we weren't emotionally engaged. I think she was great at all of that stuff, but I don't think we were encouraged to dwell on it and use it as an excuse. And I've certainly met people that had bad things happen to them in childhood, who I think were allowed to capitalise on it and not get on with their lives and do well.

You sometimes, there's really good expressions you quote on the show that we do with Frank sometimes, that your mum, and I remember them, your mum says things like, what's for you, won't go by you or something? Oh yeah, she's a big fan of that. Like when I was an anguished teenager that wanted a girlfriend, she would say, well, it's for you, won't go by you. And I think the English have a less elegant version of it where they say,

What will be will be, but it's not as, you know. Well, that sounds a bit bloke in Yates's Wine Lodge talking about a football result, wasn't it? Yeah, that's definitely not my mum. I mean, that's the thing. Spurs, what will be will be. But your mum... Yeah, that's definitely not my mum. Although in this time of gender fluidity, I suppose, you know, she could well suddenly become that Bloch in Yates' Wine Lodge.

So when was your first gig, Al? Proper paid stand-up gig? Oh, proper paid. Or it doesn't have to be paid. Well, I had really stuttering starts because I began when I was at drama school. So my first stand-up gig was 95, I think. But then I couldn't really do much

because back then there wasn't comedy clubs that you could just drop in in Cardiff. Now I think Cardiff's quite well supplied with comedy nights. This is where you went to university. to do drama, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I couldn't get the gigs. So then I moved to London in 99, 98, 99. And then I properly started late 99.

And by 2000, I was starting to kind of get compairing and gigs that covered the petrol money. But again, this is going to sound really arrogant. But because I'd been thinking about comedy for so long because I'd sort of had a hunch when I was younger that that's what I was going to end up doing. I've spoken to other people that were starting out in stand-up and they had real doubts about whether or not they would become comedians.

And I never really did. I just assumed that I would be pretty rubbish at some gigs but it was all part of the process. Right. You know, I just thought, I remember talking to comics and saying, oh yeah, well, there's always a death in the post. like we're always going to die at some point. What does that mean?

You mean die on stage? Yeah, yeah. A bit tasteless saying that to you, giving everything you'd had to go through. No, I mean, me. I always just assumed that there would be like a few speed bumps on the way that you'd have some really awful gigs like getting booed off in lute. True story.

But that's the difference between, obviously, someone who decides to do this for a living. Dying on stage to most people is utterly unacceptable. It's something you can't even think. Do you know what you mean? It's the worst nightmare. It's the being outside naked. Well, you've never reminded me of a thing that made me really like Frank before I knew him.

Like the second time I met him, I'd compared a gig and he was on, it was when he, he was coming back to stand up. So I think it was like 2007. So this would have been like about. four or five years before you came on to our show. Yeah, but Frank did some new stuff on the Tattersall Castle on the Monday night, which is a boat that has a gig. Oh, lucky.

And then the next night I happened to be hosting the gig that he was on at again. And there was a comic on who was part of a double act, who I think is like a kid's entertainer or like does kids TV or something now. And he kept asking Frank what I would call dinner party questions about comedy. So he was saying to Frank stuff along the lines of, oh, do you ever feel like just doing some of your old jokes, like if a gig's difficult? And Frank was going, no, it's not why I'm here.

I'm here to do new stuff. And the guy was like, yeah, but if you're going really badly, like I know you probably don't ever, but if you were finding it difficult, is there not a temptation for you to lean back on some of the, that old stuff that you know is really great. And Frank was like, no, because I know that stuff works, and I'm coming out to check

if this stuff works. He wasn't being impatient with him. He was just very... And the guy was like, yeah, yeah, but if it's really like tumbleweed, if it's a difficult thing. And Frank said a thing eventually where he looked at him and he went, to be honest, I'd rather just die.

And I thought, he's a real one. Like, he's a real comedian. because a real comedian would go, yeah, yeah, I'd rather die and find out. You know, there's a live by the sword, die by the sword attitude to new material. Yeah, yeah. Because you're collecting data,

that's the whole point in going out. Like, if you're already an established comic, you could just sit in your nice house. What's the point in going out and finding out that your old jokes work? He had a very specific mission, but I think about that quite often, I think of Frank.

There's a J.K. Rowland quote, which is something along the lines of those who aren't curious and don't try things because they're scared of failure, you've failed already. The minute you give up and say, oh no, I'm not going to do that. So I suppose when you tell me that story, that's the whole, to me, that's the comic's life, isn't it?

Every day is a kind of curiosity, isn't it? Because every day's a new form of failure as well. Every day's like, is that going to work? Is this not going to? And every audience is different. Well, when they're doing new stuff, certainly that's how it feels. I think once you've done the heavy lift

of getting that stuff any good, it's more like you're just displaying it. And how do you feel about, because you've done your fair share of panel shows, you're mocked the weeks. I'm not sure I've done my fair share. I think I did a less than fair share, but that's probably my own fault for not being foddy enough on them.

That might be the most Alan thing that you've ever said. But you've done a few panel shows, and how does that compare to you to digging? I'm not sure what I do entirely fits with the panel show vibe. So we're talking about this sort of mock the week, have I got news for you, etc? Well, I've done If I Got News for You and really enjoyed it, but there are fewer people on it and I suppose the glimpse behind the curtain is that I find that the people that make Have I Got News for You trust the guests to be funnier more,

whereas some of those shows, they micromanage the guest and really bother them. them and don't just go, okay, well, we've booked X number of funny people. Why don't we just let them be funny and film it? And then we'll chop it together and make it into 28 minutes. This is going to sound like a really weird thing, but I did mock the week a number of times, and I find it physically quite difficult to interrupt people. I just, I don't enjoy talking over people. And it happens, obviously, like it happens on the radio between you and me and Frank, but if I may be self-indulgent for a moment I think the three of us have a sense of complicity

where you know it feels like if somebody is being funny you don't just chuck a sort of weird spanner in the works right as they're getting their flow you sort of you interrupt with a helpful flow as best you can that's not always true on panel games and I think I'm a bit introverted So if there's seven people being loud shouting across each other, my temptation is to go, oh, okay, I'll just stop talking and let you all get on with it. And then if you ask me to say stuff, I'll say it.

And sometimes on those programmes, you can do that and don't get asked. Do you think that's unusual for a comic to be introverted? No, I think quite a lot of them are, actually. I think I read a book about introverts, and I think they're, They're surprisingly prepared to act like extroverts in pursuit of a higher goal. And if the higher goal is being a comedian, then that'll do it. If it's being the CEO of whatever it is, then they'll do that. I don't think it's not quite as binary as saying that they're shy or not shy.

It's, are we allowed to use the word binary? That's fine, isn't it? I don't even know what it means, but it's just in all the purpose, so I chuck it out there. I did one of those online Myers-Briggs tests, you know, the personality thing, which I think it meant quite a lot to me when I read up what I was,

but I am also of the opinion that apparently some psychologists and experts think that it's basically like reading your stars in the papers, but it's not quite as crappy as horoscopes. But on the ones that I did, I did a number of them, and I frequently came out as I NTJ,

which is the personality type of most baddies in films. So I think... What? I didn't realise that baddies in films all had INTs. Honestly, they're all INTJs. They're all INTJs. Vladimir Putin, INTJ. How do you know this? What's his name?

The Unabomber, you know, the Unabomber, INTJ. And I watched that Netflix thing about the Unabomber. in the moments where he was clever as a kid, but a bit left out, I was turning to my wife and I was going, INTJ, I'll bet you he's an INTJ. Let's Google it. So what does IMTJ, this is, we should say,

so IMTJ. Just put it in the show notes. That's a quality, INTJ is a quality that Alan has in common with Vladimir Putin and the Unabomber. What is I'm trying to think of some other IMPTJ people. This is nice, Al. Yeah, it's all right, isn't it?

It's not a bad dog walk. You wouldn't think. that you're actually in the city of Manchester. Beautiful here. It's really nice. There's no one, like as nice as this in London. Nowhere. That was why we moved. When we did move, we moved from London to Manchester. And lots of people reacted as if I was telling them that we'd taken up heroin.

Like the north has got such a bad reputation in some parts of London, particularly in them showbiz parts. I'd go, oh yeah, yeah, we're moving to Manchester and be like, Are you okay? And then I started saying, yeah, it's three stops from Houston. I live three stops from Houston. And it is, it's great. I think a lot of INTJs end up being kind of mathematicians or architects or that sort of stuff.

Not comics, no. Because they're quite like working alone, apparently, and they're quite like a really long problem to solve. But I think most of them have got better science and maths than me. But that could be that I just wasn't concentrating, and perhaps I'm a dormant maths genius. Although here's a joke that I sometimes tell, not on stage but off stage.

I was so bad at maths, I actually failed my maths GCSE twice and then gave it up because I couldn't face failing it a fourth time. Hey? You know what I love? That is an example of a really bad joke that I don't use on stage.

I love the way that you do the little laugh at the end of your joke and it reminds me if Frank does that as well, which is I would never have the confidence to do that. I tell a joke and then freeze. And then, oh! And where's your own Frank go? Do you tell a joke? And then you go.

Right. And I think, again, that's a funny comics thing I've noticed, which I'm quite fond of, actually. I was going to ask you... Where do babies come from? Although, well were you? Get me a pencil, Charlie. Just done this with my son. You've chosen this.

What some would say is quite an unpredictable career. Yeah? Stand-up comedy? Yeah. Loosely. It's not an office job. It's not a job where you have security in the traditional sense and every day is different, really.

Yeah. But then I would say in your domestic life, let's just say, with your partner and wife, makes you sound like with your wife. It's a partner and wife, yeah. What are they called? Polyamory. We're polyamorous like on this.

When I use the word wife, when I'm talking to a comic, I panic because it's so tarbby. Yeah, yeah. Sounds very old-school. My wife. Take my wife. Yes. But with your wife and your family, your kids, I don't know what age you were, but it seemed to me like you were keen to put down roots and settle down. I'm not too young, but you were late 20s or something?

I was 33. Oh, my talking about it was ancient. And it's... But you met your wife before that, had you? Yeah, but it's interesting because I, well, I say it's interesting. It's interesting if you're even remotely interested in this next thought. Even as I'm saying it, I'm losing interest in it. Can that be the trail?

Because that sums up, Alan, as well. By the way, for a little while I did some jokes about how boring I thought I was. And they really worked at the fringe and on tour, but did not work in comedy clubs on weekends. And I've scrutinised it because I love a bit of, self-comedy analysis. And I think the people that go out to like 500-seat a comedy clubs on weekends do not want a comic to stand there

and tell them how boring they are because they've paid a chunk and they think their lives are a bit boring and they sort of... There's a very good Canadian comic Tom Stade who when he first came to England told me possibly in a drunken chat. Go out there and be a star, Alan.

They don't want to see some dumb schmuck. They want to see a star. And I think about it often, because when I was doing my jokes about how boring I was, at a theatre gig or at a festival, that's fine, because they've come to see you and they sort of know there's a tongue-in-cheek element to it. But if you're doing it in a weekend club, I don't think they want you to tell them that you're boring. They want to see a star man.

Well, I'd like the idea of you doing a TED talk coming on saying, this is interesting. I mean, I say interesting if this is the kind of thing you happen to find interesting. I want to go back to your domestic life and why you wanted to lock it down. Well, I don't even think it's that. I think it was just a natural gravity setting. I think people get bored and go,

oh, okay, this is the next chapter. I've always quite liked that. Like, I've got friends that I think became the age they were really young. I felt immature until I was probably, I don't know, 23, 24, maybe even 25. And then I think life settled down and I'd become a comedian. Things started to fall into place.

I was getting paid gigs. I was seeing my wife. And suddenly all the bits of the jigsaw click in and you start going, oh, I feel about the age I am now. Now I quite like just being the age I am. I think comics fall into two types. There is the Gary Shandling, a slightly tortured artist. And that tends to spill over sometimes into the private life.

Yeah. And then there's the other kind of comics, which are more common in terms of the ones that I know, but who are like, right, I do this slightly odd job. So I need stability at home. Yeah. Do you think there was a part of you thinking, I need to make sure my life is structured

or was it more just, oh, I fell in love and that's what happened? Yeah, I think I'm just quite lucky in that it hasn't gone belly up yet. Notice I had yet, because I'm such a fatalist, that I assume that everything's coming to an end. We got told off once because we went to a dinner party and I repeatedly joked about my wife and I ending up divorced, and apparently that is not a thing that people do. do. What happened?

Did the other people at the end of the interview? Yeah, they sort of said, oh, this is making us feel a bit uncomfortable. But again, it's that thing that we were talking about earlier. In fact, near enough in this exact spot of the walk, I think if you say it, then you can make fun of it and then you're allowing everyone to get involved. And obviously, if you are happily married, there's a bit of me that thinks it's the worst slash best thing you could do is joke about it going terribly

and that's the thing that you're not meant to joke about isn't it? So surely that's the thing to joke about. Well, you've done material on that, haven't you? Which made me laugh because actually I was going to say I remember the first time I met you and the first time I saw you which sounds a bit creepy but we were up there doing the Frank Skinner show and I saw you weren't on our show at the time

and me and the producer Daisy we saw you Oh, I know which bit you're going to talk about now. That was funny. One of your children was on your shoulders, and it was just a very rom-com dad look. I had a bit of material about taking my lovely little boy, who I think was one or two or whatever,

to the park and him looking so adorable that sometimes I thought, oh my God, you're so adorable. If anything happens to your mum, and she dies, we are going to look so attractive. And it was great. I used to love doing that. What does your partner think of that? I keep saying your partner, I'm going to ask that clean.

What does your wife think of that now? Here's the thing. We have sort of an undeclared agreement that she can be mentioned in the act, but I hate those comics that do loads of negative stuff about their partner and I just think like I see some comics on weekends

going oh God my wife this my wife and I think just leave me you're obviously not happy stop moaning about it to 500 paying strangers just leave and start a new relationship or do some other stuff so I never really would do that

so the deal was that you know I had this unbidden thought that we would look really attractive in the event of her dying and I just had to make it as funny as it could be and not make her look stupid

Yeah, I know what you mean because I guess you could say that's the role of the comic is to say the things or to articulate the things that we don't say sometimes, you know, or we fear saying.

Yeah. And present it in a palatable way that makes us laugh. The gestures were the only ones that were allowed to make fun of the king, weren't they? Everybody else got their head chopped off for it. Yeah, but we can't do that to Frank.

Frank is delighted if we're funny, I feel. I know, he is. And I don't know who I would go to London once a week to do a show with that isn't Frank, like in terms of comic minds. Well, so you're a hero of yours growing up. Yeah, definitely. He's going to hate that. Makes him

about 100. But I mean, when you were a young comic starting out... Oh yeah, I've told him this. Like I, you know, all my mates watched fantasy football. Me and my mate Dave, shout out Dave. We used to watch Frank's. I'm sorry, I really can't allow this. We used to watch Frank's videos.

That dates it a bit, don't it? And so when I started working with him, it's quite a big deal for me. The radio show has been really good for me in that regard. Because it's nice. Well, as a solo comic, you spend a huge amount of time on your own. And I think

it can be a bit too solo warrior. See these trees that have fallen in the bad weather. It's great, isn't it? Yeah, so it can lead to quite a lot of solitary time. And so even once a week doing a team show, it sounds silly, but things like going over the papers and saying, how's your week been and all that stuff, that is not a thing that you get on the stand-up circuit

unless you're in a team show. And I think that's sometimes why comics move off, doing stand-up and become sort of tele-regulars or something, because the lifestyle is probably a bit nicer than being a solo comic. I think you went to life improvement. Yeah. Is that fair enough? Yeah, well, I think that's just really interesting.

And I think this is where I do become a bit I-N-T-J, because so much of it is just remembering what's important, in it. And so I'm increasingly interested in Stoicism, are, you know, looking after yourself, like how you feel about things and letting feelings pass and then not become all day dominating. Do you get sad?

Do I get sad? Yeah, but it's... Oh, this is the thing that we talked about. I think it's part of life, though. I was listening to a podcast interview with the mentalist, Derren Brown, who's written a book on happiness that I haven't read yet.

But he's really interested in the Stoics, and he was saying that so was Freud before he started writing about analysis and all that stuff. And Freud's starting point was never that he wanted to make people happy. It was that he wanted to restore them to their natural unhappiness. I think that's a really interesting idea, because you only have to walk out of your house, or flats, whatever you've got,

dwelling, whatever. I love the idea of restoring your natural unhappiness because you see it all the time. Like you only have to walk out and you see people like that are artificially unhappy. They've put lots of extra unhappiness in from the way we live, our modern life. You know, these people chomping on terrible foods

and doing no exercise and constantly staring at gadgets and you go, well, it's no wonder you're unhappy or actually extra unhappy. What you need to do is embrace being sad when you're sad, but the rest of the time, you know, be whatever you are. I'm interested in that stuff. What you do, though? So if you feel...

I don't know. You know, I've got a running joke with my wife that I think I'm eventually going to become a miserable motivational speaker. I think that would be really... I know what you're saying about the unhappiness. I think that's true. But do you think sometimes it's hard to access and people... By the way, I'm in no way belittling anybody who has, you know,

actual difficult psychological problems that they need therapy for. I think, I assume that therapy is fantastic if it's done well. Have you had it? No. Would you have it? No, I've got a joke about it at the moment that I don't have therapy because a lot of people I know that get therapy, they pay for it in order to not wait for the NHS.

I'm a bit too stingy for that. So here's what I do. I tell people that I know for a factor in therapy my problems and then I ask them to ask their therapists what they think. So far no feedback. I think they're all dealing with narcissism. There you go. A little bit of a plug for Alan Cochran, touring 2019.

But do you think... That's just one of the many jokes in my show. I'm not sure. Okay. I think I'm probably there's stuff in there that I should do. Like what? I don't know, but there's probably some stuff where I've got... Like your dad?

I've probably got some patterns of behaviour that aren't, what do they say on American podcasts, optimal. I've probably got some suboptimal patterns of behaviour. But at the same time, you don't want to unpick all of them and become not funny anymore, do you? That's the thing that Frank says. Well, I know. Yeah, so I'm not having that. I'm bad enough by just having figured out a few things. I've become really boring.

Do you cry out? Do I cry? Yeah. Yeah, sometimes. When did you last cry? An expensive lunch? No. Not going to let that one side.

You're going to have to act. Hello. Sorry. I honestly can't remember the last time I cried. Life's been all right recently. I think, like, well, you know this, anyone who's listened to this podcast would know this, is that you dismantle emotion a lot of the time.

Which I understand. So if I say, oh, when this, you'll say, well, I've got a joke about that. And that's quite, that's common to comics, I think, which is, it's like they didn't get into this game to start spilling one about feelings. This is something that I'm increasingly realizing as I get older, that I am,

I mean, I'm not even a sci-fi fan, but I think there is a bit of my personality type that is part Vulcan where you know if someone tells me sad stuff there's a bit of me that's kind of watching it going oh what are these feelings that this person is having um see i think that's not something i would ever have thought of you oh no but i think that is a bit of me i'm not saying that i don't have feelings i'm just saying that sometimes i'm quite good at putting the um breaks on reacting to them whereas other people people seem very, the moment in between feeling a thing and behaving, there is no moment.

It's exactly like the next thing happens, whereas I'm a bit more, oh, it would be possibly damaging to act on this right now. Not to say that I don't have a temper and don't sometimes make mistakes, of course I do, but I don't. I've never really seen your temper though. Well, lucky you. This is the local pub as well, which I can just say, That's how, that's traditionally the dog finds its way to the pub.

But you don't drink, do you anymore? And I don't drink. And Frank doesn't drink. And I've decided that, oddly, you and I started off, I say drinkers. We weren't drinkers. Real booze hounds. No, we weren't booze hounds. But, you know, it's weird that we've all ended up.

It's not like I'm completely teetotal, but I don't really like alcohol is what I've discovered. Yeah, I'm having 10 years off and then I'm going to get really drunk in my first. 50s. That sounds a great idea. Yeah, it's stupid. I'm quite interested in habit breaking and I felt like it was possibly just becoming something that I did blithely rather than, you know, in a fun way. It's funny how many men I've talked to about this and I've said, I mean, I did not have

a drink problem. I just wasn't really drinking in a, yeah, yeah, exactly, Your Honor. I was just becoming a bit like I was assuming that drinking. was happening, which I think is really common in the UK because there's a drinking culture and it's so entrenched. And so like, you know, if my wife and I watched some telly, we'd open wine and, you know, she might say, oh, I'm going to bed and I'd stay up and finish the bottle, that sort of stuff. Yeah. And the number of times that I've said that to men and they've gone, yeah? I'll do that every night, what you're talking about. Your point is? Yeah, exactly. Since not

drinking. I said to people, I'm going to take 10 years off alcohol. Yeah. They got really annoyed, which I find weird. And then I said, all right, I'll do one and then if I enjoy it, I'll roll it out to 10. And I wouldn't say that I've necessarily enjoyed it, but I also haven't missed it that much. Yeah. And then... Frank always says he thinks it's a gift to your children. A gift to your children to not drink. Not drinking, because he says... Oh, I better stop that. I don't like to shower them with gifts. He said he thinks it makes you a better parent. Oh, I think that's true, yeah.

He says it's because you don't worry about a parent coming through the door thinking what they're going to be like. Yeah, yeah, I think that is true, even though I'm not at all prohibition. I wanted to say something to you, which I've noticed about you. We've been working together for, how long is it? Eight years, something like that. It's a chunk. One thing that I've noticed Get less for murder, wouldn't you?

Oh yeah. As people say about marriage. One thing I've noticed about you Oh God. Is that you've hit all your marks in the sentence of life, if you like. To me, anyway, you have. So you've hit all those punctuation marks.

You know, you've got marriage, you've got the kids, you've got the dog you are, a dog family now. This is sort of what I mean about, being my age, I guess. Not everyone does that. And what I feel sometimes, as someone who hasn't gone down that path and has done things a bit differently and all that sort of stuff, and never sort of joined the dog families,

I sometimes feel people can be a bit, but what's wrong with you? What are you doing? Why aren't you like us? And in the whole time I've known you, I've never, ever felt judged by you. I feel there's a tolerance of. about you. What you say behind my back, I don't know. But to my face, it's interesting to me that,

because it's unusual is what I mean, because often I think there is that sense of, why are you doing it that way? Do it my way? Right. That's interesting. And I like it. I'd rather not be one of the people judging other people's lives that much. I mean, I suppose it does go back to what we were talking about earlier about my relationship. I do see it as being fluke rather than design that I've hit all those marks. Do you? Because I think I'm much more eccentric than people realise. Hi, I don't know.

There's only a few things have to not happen at certain points that could have led me to a much weirder personal life or, you know, a much more odd version of what I've ended up. I'm not sure if this makes sense. Well, no, it does totally make sense, but also, I mean, I'm really interested in you saying that because as you were saying it, I suddenly... I was thinking about how you lost your dad. And I don't know, I think on a very subconscious level, perhaps, that opens up a portal towards life isn't always what you plan.

You know, so you're able to think of life in a slightly different way. Just a small thing, but it means that you're used to adjustments than the unexpected. Yeah. And you're perhaps less rigid about how things work. Yeah, yeah. Because your life was sort of blown apart, essentially, when you were quite young. There's probably something in my brain that doesn't think that unconventional is therefore wrong. Because, you know, I was at school when single-parent families were uncommon,

and the ones that did happen were massively kind of the first wave of divorces happening in. And so to be a single-parent family, and at the time the total-parent family, and at the time the total-referral, were in and there was quite a lot of stigma against single mum's. It was all sort of a bit of mum blaming, which I never really understood or got along with. But that could just be that I would see my mum put in a massive effort and feeling defensive of her. But yeah, I don't really associate different with bad, even though, like on the surface, my life is really quite conventional. You know, we've got the kids and the dog and the house and the car. Do you ever see a life where you wouldn't do stand-up?

I never used to be able to, and it's kind of weird, because my most recent stand-up show is probably my favourite. But there is a bit of me that thinks, oh, I wonder how long this has got, because I do feel like there is a sort of a new landscape developing where you only have to say one thing that's out of line with the kind of mentality of the mentality of the time. Twitter mob or whatever and you know you could end it all my tendency is not to take on that

battle it's to sort of go oh well fine I'll leave it then I'm done oh campus grass oh perfect do you know what that means I do know what that means what does it mean I think we've joked about on the show what does it mean there's very few subjects that come up now that I don't think we've done that on this on this frank skier show what does it mean now isn't it like swingers parrises I think it might be an old folks home. It's swingers, Al. Any port in a storm, they're probably thinking. Swingers have pamphers grow up. He's changing the subject.

I think they're his swinging friends. I was very much on subject. Clearly swinging friends. So, Al, are you doing your grappling still? Yes, tomorrow morning I will be going back there. Graffling, we should say again, we talk about it on the Frank Skinner show with Al, but it's, well, you call it grappling. We call it Kung Fu Fighting. I do a martial art called Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. as indeed everyone should.

And I will say this, Emily, I am not good at it, but it's a really great thing for me to have found. I'm so glad I did. It's like a sort of, not meditation, but... It's so good for me. Not just socially, which it is, like I've met loads of people that I wouldn't have been friends with through it.

There was a point when we moved to Manchester about two years in where my wife turned to me and she said, just to be clear, Alan, are you absolutely fine not trying to make... any friends up here and I said yeah I'm absolutely fine with that and now in a weird twist of fate I have so many people that I would call friends through Jiu-jitsu that I can go for lunch with I can like if it sounds stupid but if we need someone to look after the dog I contact Nick from Jiu-Jitsu like if I wanted somebody to help me move some furniture

tomorrow I would probably text three Jiu-Jitsu guys I was gonna say not me for that Not you, no, no. When I've been talking about it, and I don't think everyone gets this from it, but I get this, it's like microdosing resilience. Because if somebody can literally make you submit with a joint lock or a strangle, and then you submit, you literally tap on their shoulder and they let it go. Do you say submit? Sometimes you'll say tap, but most of it is just that. You do a double tap on them, and they let go of whatever it was. but then what happens next do you get up and go home

no you don't you slap hands and you go again and it's amazing like literally someone's just been at the point of being able to seriously hurt you and then you go again so is it it's an acknowledgement it's a metaphor for life

that is a great metaphor for life I mean Chumba Wombard did it in their own way but not to tell a good of me Chumba Womba's music Oh, we're getting near your house now. I've really enjoyed my walk with you. Oh, yeah, I've enjoyed it as well. I'm sorry I was so self-deprecating. But the way you say I enjoyed it is this, again, oh, I've enjoyed it as well. Have you ever seen those books, The Tower of Pooh?

Yeah, yeah, Tower of Pooh's great. You're going to compare me to Eeyore? No, I was going to give you the opportunity to compare yourself to Eeyl. Well, it's been done. One thing I wanted to say to you, oh yeah. You're someone who people are always. always nice about. Whenever I meet people and they say, and you mention Alan, they go, oh, and a little smile plays on their lips and they look happy. Isn't that nice? That is good. I'll take that. Thank you very much for that. Notice he didn't return that. I was just thinking,

should I? No, don't lie. It feels like I'm talking. I've never said anything about you. Have you enjoyed it? Yeah, I have. Thanks. Sorry about your numbers dropping when you put it on your podcast. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.