Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Anita Rani

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

In the first episode of the new series Emily goes for a stroll with Anita Rani and her Bedlington Whippet, Rafi. They talk about Anita’s new memoir, her Punjabi family life, her natural performing instinct and her husband, Bhupi.The Right Sort of Girl by Anita Rani, is out now, (Blink Publishing, £16.99) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I still am nervous about telling my mum that I've exposed that I kissed a ginger boy in the book, Mum. Like I wrote it and I was like, this is funny, this is just coming of age, everyone will relate to this. And then I thought, oh no, Asian aunties are going to read this and go, oh, she was naughty girl. She was a naughty girl. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll in East London with radio and TV presenter Anita Rani and her adorable Bedlington Whippet Raffey. and it was so reassuring to meet someone who obsesses over their dog as much as I do. I've never felt so seen.

It was a really beautiful sunny day when we met, and that kind of set the tone for our walk, because Anita's an incredibly sunny, natured person. She talked to me about so much, her Punjabi family life growing up in Bradford, her natural performing instinct, which led to her hugely successful TV and radio career, on everything from country files to women's hour and strictly,

and her husband Bupy, who she loves almost as much as her dog Rafi. Anita recently published a best-selling memoir, The Right Sort of Girl, which is so honest and funny and just brilliantly written. And she manages to paint such a vivid picture, not only of herself, but also of her cultural background

and the influence that's had on her life. So I really urge you to read it. As you may have guessed by now, I loved my walk with Anita, and I think Ray took quite a shine to Rafi. So if Rafi's happy to her, overlook the height difference and the snoring and the morning breath oh and the one missing tooth then let's talk I really hope you enjoy our walk I'll shut up now and hand over to the

woman herself here's Anita and Raffey and Ray hello you are so cute you are just so cute look this Raffi and they're getting on well that's good no barking she started growling out of the dogs when she has a treat on her so that's not good yeah she seems Very mild nature. She is, she's very, she's just, I don't know, personality's changed, she's only 11 months. She's still only with dinky, so, and she's only just had her first season.

Hello, baby. Yes, yes, we're going for a walk. Oh, you don't, you want that, you want that, you can't have that. I brought treats. Oh, yes. Rafi, do you know, that's the first direct eye contact you've given me, and I find it quite significant

that it was when I said the word treats, Neeta. Sit, sit. Please don't embarrass me. Sit, Raffi. Sit, good girl. Sit, sit. Go on, you can do it. Good girl, good girl.

There we go. Come on. We're going to go to the park with Raffi. Would you like that? Yeah. Have you been for a wander around here before? It's like a frog. It's amazing.

Oh, Raim, Raymond, you're beautiful. When I had Ed Miliband on this podcast, he said Raymond looked like a toupee. Who said that? Ed Miliband. Did you put Raymond on his head for that? Oh, what's that? Oh, what's that all about? What's that?

Why are you barking? Come on. I mean, I don't actually know how well-trained my dog is. We've been making it up. She's our first ever pet, with neither of us have ever had a pet. We've never had a pet and she's our experiment so you can be the judge. No one professional has ever checked her over so we'll see what state she's in. She doesn't get back on the lead.

That is going to be an issue. Right, we're going to cross over now Ray and Rafi. Ray's so well behaved. Well, I mean the walk hasn't begun yet. It hasn't begun. Wait for the green man, Ray. Do you do that? talk to my dog like he will understand. Oh yeah yeah yeah I mean full full

blown conversations also she's bilingual so there'll be a bit of Punjabi Julia chill adja hiya hi there you go good girl oh she's being ever so sweet with Ray Anita oh god this song gives me the creeps it was my final it was the salsa I did on strictly and it was it was the salsa It was the dance I got kicked out on and every time I hear it I have a reflex. Oh, what an adorable baby. A thank you're going to be asleep. Oh, amazing.

So little. Right, welcome to Deepest Darkest Hackney. I love that that song is triggering for you. I mean, I don't love it, but I'm fine. I mean, did she call her a caterpillar? Oh, he's like a caterpillar. Yay, good at him. Nice to see you. Raymond, caterpillar.

Come on, Raffy. I've never had caterpillar, Anita. What do you think of that? How does Raymond feel about it? What do people say about Raffi when they... Well, she gets told she's very beautiful, very legy. She's very fast. Oh, thanks for rubbing that in, Anita.

So my dog gets called the caterpillar, and you say, well, Raffi actually gets told she's very legy and beautiful. Beautiful. I'm very fast. She's not had caterpillar. Although, no, I have to say my dad does say she looks like a mere cat. My dad's like, my dad calls her a bit rat-like. But my dad's very northern.

She looks like a rat when she's wet. And then he said to me the other day, you've not trained her very well, have you? So, you know, she's a feral rat. Rafi's doing the first defecation of the walk. It's the second of my, like this morning. We should say Anita's talking about the dog there. Yes, I might need to go as well. While Anita's bending over there, there we go,

sorting out the bathroom duties. I'm going to introduce her. I'm so excited to have this woman on my podcast. I'm a huge fan of hers and have been for some time. I'm with the very wonderful Anita run. And we're in... Do you want to talk about our location? Well, I've dragged

Emily to deepest, darkest, Hackney. Come on, Rafi. She always smells something. We are heading towards Hackney Marshes. We're in the... I guess this is Lower Clapton. And people often think of Hackney as being this really urban environment,

which it is, it's East London, but it also has this magical spots where there's lots of green fields, a beautiful canal. We call it the Hackney Riviera. People go swimming. I wouldn't. Yeah, so we're just going to, I'm going to take you for a lovely walk. And Anisha, will you talk us through, introduce us to your dog? So this is my darling love of my life, Bedlington Whippet, Rafi,

named after Mohammed Rafi, who's an Indian singer, man. She's a woman, but she doesn't mind. She's 11 months old. and just the best thing that's ever happened to me. I've never had a dog in my life. Never had a pet. It was never allowed. Oh, wee wee.

Good girl. She's a bedlington. Bedlington crossed with the Whippet. So I guess she's a lurcher. We're working dogs on farms. But we looked into the type of breed we wanted what would suit a London lifestyle. My husband can take her to work,

so that's all right. She doesn't have to be left alone ever. She likes a good old run, big long walk, and then she'll just cuddle up, a bit of a lap dog. She's perfect. Come on. She's absolutely adorable. And what I liked is she turned up today with, well, she chose to wear a red bandana around her neck, as if to, as if she was on a blind date with Ray and wanted to ensure that he could spot her. Should have told Ray to wear something too.

Ray's impressed. She gets a lot of attention, my dog. She's definitely getting attention at the moment because she's just had her first season. And tell me about dogs in your childhood. Well, both my parents grew up with them. Mum grew up in India. They always had dogs because they just had space.

And so she grew up with them and she reckoned she had a pet monkey as well called Chimpy. And there is definitely a picture of some kind of small furry animal in a photograph somewhere. But it doesn't... I can't really identify. identify it as a monkey. But anyway, that's what mum reckons. And my dad's always had dogs and my dad's brilliant with dogs, but we just were never allowed one because they were so busy running a factory

and bringing me and my brother up that a dog would have just been an extra that nobody would have been able to look after. So we didn't. And now we've got one. And even when we were thinking of getting one, I said to my mum and dad, we're going to get a dog. And they're like, why are you getting a dog? You don't need a dog in your life. And I said, well, Bupy wants a dog. That's my husband. But of the son-in-law can do what he wants. So my mum was like, oh, if puppy wants a dog, then get a dog. Whatever makes him happy.

So we got one. And they love her. And they love her. And now my dad will phone and say, you bring him waffy round. You bring him waffy round. Yeah, they absolutely are smitten. Because there's just amazing energy, aren't they?

I think the thing with dogs is that I understand why people would be wary of getting one because on paper it's a completely impractical a logical thing to do because all they do is sort of require you to do stuff without they don't contribute income they don't grow up to be adults yep and pay for your care but you know what I think sometimes the logical thing bring you the most happiness and the sneeze is contagious both dogs are sneezing what's going on No, you're absolutely right. So when we got her, someone said to us,

you'll put all the effort in now and then you'll just get this loyalty and love forevermore. And she is, I just can't explain it. I never thought I could love anything as much as I love this dog. She doesn't even talk. Maybe that's why I love her. Maybe that's why. I mean, she's the best thing that's ever happened to us.

Absolutely. As you know, She's therapeutic and they're just so, and their intuition, their sense of smell, like, so that heightened senses. I'm just, yeah. I want to go back to talk a bit more about your childhood and the beginning of Anita because I've just read your book, which is honestly brilliant, Anita. It's called The Right Sort of Girl. It just told me so much, not just about you, but the culture you grew up in and it was, really thought-provoking in on so many levels and I felt I got this really vivid

incredible picture of your family life I feel like I know your parents now yeah there's a lot about them in there they've not even read it yet I was a bit nervous coming here to talk about it but yeah you've relaxed me by telling me you like it that's all that's all the good stuff yeah it's like when you're asked to write a childhood memoir I think the proposal was something a little bit different to what it turned out to be like how much do you put in there how much do you keep back and what i reckon what i realized at the very beginning is if i'm going to write this it has to be truthful and it has to be authentic and i can't shy away from the stuff that is difficult to talk about because

that's the stuff that's probably the most important and you know i don't know how many other memoirs there are of sort of south asian girls in britain growing up you know in different worlds and I certainly follow lots of young women on social media and all the rest of it and I don't know it felt like I felt like I needed to tell them that there are other people like you who grew up and it was quite tough and you know this don't you Emily you know you have to you have to give something of yourself away you have to explain it's happened to you particularly, you know, if people are watching me on a Sunday night in Country File, and now, you know, on the Woman's Hour on a Friday,

felt like they shouldn't, it's like I have a story to tell that is a little bit complicated, but very British, and that we should, maybe, maybe people will be interested in hearing it. Tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up in your household. Yeah, so it was me, my mum and dad and my brother. and they're very energetic my parents as you get a sense of in the book but they set up a manufacturing business when we were really young

and did quite well for themselves put me and my brother into private education I mean all we knew was the factory we'd go from school well to the factory we were always in the factory because it was just the two of them that built it up from scratch

and this is in Bradford in Bradford yeah in gorgeous Bradford in West Yorkshire I do decide I'm doing the Bratford Literature Festival and I'm like, I'm not sure if they read the bit where I called Bradford a shit on.

I might get hounded out, but I do express a great amount of love for it as well. Very much. And your parents, I call them Bill and Lucky. Yes, I love that you know the names. Because that was their sort of anglicised names, really.

Yeah, yeah. So their full names are Balvinder and Lackbeer. But dad's, yeah, Most Punjabis, all Punjabis, have nicknames. Like, we're just known for our nicknames. Even before we moved to birth, like, you know, the migration happened. Everyone will just have a pet name. Like, if somebody's particularly fair skins, they might be called Pinky.

And your nickname is Neatoo? Neatoo, yeah. I was going to greet you as Neatoo. And then I thought, I'll buy the girl a coffee for a fire. Yeah, I love that. I love that. We're my really closest friends, so who know, have known me for a long time. We'll often call me Neatoo.

Yeah, I was named after a Bollywood actress. My mom's like Bollywood obsessed. I know it's so bad. Her name was Nithu Singh. She had big brown eyes. And my mum said when I was born, she just saw my big brown eyes. I'm like, right, great, mom. So just name me after an actress.

I mean, I love it. But yeah, but the name I was given then, and it's on my birth certificate, is Anita, which has meant that my life and my experience has been different to a lot of others because I've got such an easy name. So my parents, like a lot of them in this country, they just have their anglicised names

that made it easier for everybody else. Look at these pretty little... Look at the swans. Look at them. Signets. Yeah. So we're walking along the canal. So lovely, isn't it?

There are two swans. Swans need a better PR, I feel. Yeah. All I ever hear about them is that they're aggressive and that you go to prison if you kill one or something. Hello, swans. Hello, swans. How's this going to go, Anita?

draft you like the swans? I don't know. She's not actually been in water yet because we've been in lockdown pretty much look she wants she's desperate to get in she wants to go and say hello but I'll put you down Ray see what you make of the swans she wants to look at her she was desperate to go in and fight them come on Ray so my dad's name was Bill but that's easy because his family name his pet name was Billah so everyone just called him Bill and lucky is my mum's nickname anyway even in Punjabi everyone's lucky cause a lucky but but they have friends like Indian friends with names like James and Paul and Richard we've got made that a mate called Richard and the house was you were living initially with

your grandparents that's parents so that's really not very common so the sort of Indian way traditional way of doing things is that it's called a joint marriage system of joint family system sorry and where the son of the house won't move out. The daughter, once they'll get married and the daughter-in-law will move into the home, the family home. And then in theory, everyone lives happily ever after because you go to work and the grandparents are at home to look after the grandchildren and the money comes into the same household and then you buy bigger houses. And we know, I know plenty of families who still live like that, less and less so. Yeah. But it didn't really work with my family because

my dad's family are supremely dysfunctional. Like, amazingly, like, they're really good. They excel in dysfunction. About conflict resolution. Yes, and lots of conflict. Like, my granddad is, he came over in 1954. You know, we're the Irish of India, Punjabis. You know, we're a working class, agrarian farming community.

And we have a ton of baggage that comes with that. So, very patriarchal. I mean, women work properly hard, but like, you know, working class, farming women, just there to keep the families together. But my granddad was quite an angry man. I don't think he particularly paid much attention to what his children's needs where. I don't think they had much time to do that. My grandma was just like keeping the six kids together.

My dad's the eldest of six. Yeah. And so at 19, so my dad came over here when he was four, at 19, my grandparents decided to marry him to my mum, have an arranged marriage. There you go, Rafi. And so my mum came over from India, and on the first day of their wedding,

she's in the attic, she's come home, and there's a big old bust-up downstairs, and my granddad's having a big old barney. And this is it, welcome to your new life. Welcome to Bradford. So they left. My dad just said, I'm out of here. I think my mum was the perfect excuse.

I think he always wanted out. And now he's got this wife from India, India, a little baby me, and they left, which was quite a big controversy, big hoo-ha, very similar to, which is why, you know, when the whole Meghan Markle thing happened, I was like, it's just Bollywood, it's just every Asian, every Asian family. So the Windsors and some ways operate on a similar model, would you say? Absolutely identical. They are the archetypal South Asian family in many ways, matriarch at the top, sons who are

treated like little princes, get away with anything, the daughter who's had to really fight for everything. And then daughter-in-laws kind of have to fit with the family mould and the family culture. And yeah, so yes, I would say very similar. So when you were growing up with your prince, it was you and your brother? Yeah, Caldeeep, yes. I like the sound of Coldeat. Yeah, he's a dude, doesn't he? And you were very close, weren't you?

Yeah, there's only two and a half years between us. Yeah, two years, two months. Yeah, he's brilliant. Very kind, very gentle, had me as the big, boisterous older sister to do all the talking. Very creative. Yeah, and it was just the two of us.

And our childhood was so unique in that we were, you know, at these private schools and then we'd finish school and come home to the factory and have to do, you know, kind of just work with mum and dad until they'd finish the day. And it was just the two of us, really,

who fit that mott. was no one else like us, if you know what I mean, not in Bradford. So we were like in between worlds because our school was really white and very middle class and our home life was very Indian but then we had this added factory twist. Looking back at your childhood now, how would you think of yourself as a little girl really? What sort of little, what sort of child do you think you were? Oh God, I don't know. Looking back like now, like having written the book, let's go this way. I feel like, you know, having a dog, like I'm talking to you about my upbringing and how my mum and dad sent us to those schools to kind of get us to fit into

middle-class British society, but I feel like getting a dog, I'm right in there. That's what you needed to do. I should have just got a dog? They could have saved all that money on that bloody education, just got us a dog from the off. You should have just got a Labradoodle if they'd have been, if they'd have existed then they would have. So they were very, they had real work ethic your parents, didn't they? Yeah. Very entrepreneurial and I get the sense that you were incredibly dutiful. Yes. But at the same time really didn't. Like I was rebellious and wanted to be more rebellious, but I also was very aware of everything that was going on around me and very, I guess, heightened or alertness of the adults around me. I guess like the eldest child I think is often like that.

Do you want some more to refie? I feel like I had to grow up very quickly, very fast. I'm sure my dad did as well as the eldest child. And I think I just adapted to what was required of me. It was always very aware of how I should behave. And I think I don't know. I became an adult very quickly but at the same time I was just really aware that I wanted to get out and live my own life as fast as humanly possible. I just, I don't know, I just had this, okay, I just got to get through the first 18 years and then, then I'm all good, then I'm on, then I can just do what I want. I think I probably cocked that, right, what's the agenda? Okay, I get to university and then I'm what, on my own? Okay, right, let's get there. That's where I want to be. Head down, keep going,

18. Yeah, it was quite, I found being a teenager really tough. I found growing up really tough. My family wasn't easy. I think anyone from a working class background, you know, it's just complicated. You know, being in a migrant, being in a family that isn't, you know, from the country that you're in.

People are, everyone's finding it difficult. My granddad found it difficult. My parents found it difficult. in their own way. They had an arranged marriage. They met at Heathrow Airport, Emily. That was their first meeting. So mad.

Did you grow up thinking that was going to be expected of you? It was like... That kind of relationship? It was marriage. Indians are just obsessed with marriage. And it was just... I know every culture is. I know everyone's obsessed with kind of relationships.

But marriage, and particularly with daughters, it was like you, this is the ultimate. It doesn't matter how successful you are or how many degrees you've got. No one really cares. It's just like, when are you getting married? And I've had this conversation with my mum now that I've written the book.

I'm like, you just, that's all you were bothered about because it's a reflection on them. You know, the daughter is still single. I mean, I got to 30 and that was it. You know, everyone was in panic mode. She's hit 30. She's not had kids. Well, anyway.

Did you... It's so liberated. talking about this. I must say, you know, I'm very nervous about the book, but this is really liberating. Was there pressure on you to sort of excel academically? I mean, I went to a really academic school and like my friends were, everybody was quite right and it was a great school and I'm a real advocate for single sex education for girls because it was just cool to be clever in my school and it was nice, it was good to learn and there is a, there is a, there is a, It's very okay.

He's very hot. So you know what? Should we go find a shady bit? Yeah, I think Raffi's the same. They're getting a bit hot. Suddenly can always walk that way. We'll go here. We'll go in a shady bit, way, way.

Presumably you were doing a lot of the sort of teenage experimentation stuff. In secret. All in secret. All Asian kids have their lives in secret. So you know, I'm really, it is, it does feel good. good to talk about it, right? The funny thing is, I've talked about a few boyfriends and my first kiss. And that's what, and like, I still am nervous about telling my mum that I've, I've exposed, but I kissed a ginger boy in the book, Mum. And I think that it's going to be,

like, I wrote it and I was like, this is funny, this is just coming of age, everyone will relate to this. And then I thought, oh, no, Asian aunties are going to read this and go, oh, she was naughty girl. She was a naughty girl. Because in their minds, their daughters, their daughters are not kissing anybody until they get married. You see, I think I've brought up in entirely the wrong culture because I am essentially an Asian auntie. The Illuminati's is your brilliant name for them, which is what's to explain, tell me a bit because I'm fascinated about the culture,

the sort of anti-culture that you grew up with. Anti-culture, they're anti's the kind of, what do I say in the book, MI5, KGB, the CIA and the Illuminante. They just know everything about everyone. So, you know, you live in these communities. Everyone, these aunties kind of sit around. They know everybody's business. They're not really your blood relatives.

They're just women who get together. You know, they might be at the temple. And they're constantly trying to hook people up. They're constantly asking, when is your, how old is your daughter? What does she study? What kind of boy are you looking for? I'm like, I'm only 16 years old. Yeah, so they were sort of the bane of my life.

And also they, it's like there's a weight of expectation that you have to behave a certain way, otherwise that everyone will know, the community, it's like looming fear of what will people say? And I've kind of, you know, yeah, the Illuminante did my head in. And I've kind of made jokes about them. But at the same time, you know, I sort of talk a lot about how much I love the women aunties as well. hardworking aunties but yes I mean I think the

Illuminante should go into business I think now like friends of mine have said like come on this is amazing like you've got a system set up where they look for a partner for you based on your family based on your education

based on everything this is brilliant but it's interesting you say about that about should go into business because I've often I couldn't help wonder if those women some of them perhaps are just essentially driven entrepreneurial women

themselves in some ways and actually that was possibly an outlet for them because they weren't running businesses. Yes. Yeah, they could have been doing so much more. Yeah, they could have been, they were CEOs of matchmaking. Yes.

Yeah, you're probably right. Now we could wonder down. Where should we go? Oh, look, Matthew's chasing that jogger. so an anisha well you always you strike me already as very warm and

sort of extrovert and engaging and that you get your energy source from people well you always like that as a child I think so I'm like my mum she's like the same very friendly very open just very open and real like my mum will just

oh she told her I wouldn't see her yesterday and she said we've got new neighbours moving in and the builders were no the the removals men were there all day all day and eat it and they hadn't eaten anything so I said to them you wait there and I cook them a curry and I and that's mum like the neighbours removal men got fed by my mum so and it's just a man they're both like that so yeah I do I guess I vibe off a vibe of people man did you have that sense of wanting to perform from a really young age?

Probably, I think so. I definitely, I loved drama, I loved theatre, I loved, yeah, I loved, and plays, plays, just storytelling. And I, and I wanted to study drama at uni, but no, my Indian dad wasn't going to let that happen. I didn't make sense to them. It didn't make sense that I'd go, why would I go and study drama? Like, what would I do with that?

But then I got a job at my local radio station really young. It was an Asian radio station that had opened up. And that just felt really... Oh, look. She's given up. Come on, Rafi. Come on, darling. Come on.

Good girl. Come on, guys. Come on. Good girl. I know, I know. And then we'll go home and you'll get some lunch. Did you feel pretty as a teenager? Not at all.

Not at all. And that's okay. And I'm not saying that for everyone to go, It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I guess there was no, when there's no representation of what you look like anywhere, like not in magazines, not on the telly, unless, of course, it was like wife-beaten storyline on the bill or whatever. It's grim, it's grim, but it's true, kids. And then also, I said this to a friend of mine ages ago.

It's like, yeah, no one fancied the Asian kids growing up when we were growing up, or if they did it was secret. So you just didn't. And very quickly recognise that it was my mates, that, you know, that's their thing. And when everybody was kind of discovering their sexuality, I was like, don't want to deal with that. I'll just wear baggy trousers and keep everything hidden. But that's also because, you know, it was just been far too complicated to have a secret relationship within an Indian household. But it doesn't mean I didn't fancy, you know, we were all kind of had our crushes and whatnot. But yeah, didn't feel pretty.

But that was okay. Developed other skills. And there's a bit you talk about in the book, which I think is really brave and very moving, which is just about self-harming, essentially. And I really respected you for being open about that. That wasn't in the original proposal for the book. It wasn't the plan to put that in there.

But then when I started writing about being a teenager, It would just be so false to sort of go, well, and it was all great. And actually, it was very complicated. I found it really difficult. And I've not really talked about it to anybody. I just wrote about it in the book. And then read it to my husband, bawling my eyes out. And he just said, like, it's really important that you put it in there.

because to hear it from you, someone who seemingly has done, you know, got it together is just, will make it much easier for other people to go, right, okay, you've allowed us to be able to talk about something. And actually, I'm, I thought I'd be a lot more worried about that. I'm not, I'm not at all, you know, it happened. I went through a small phase of self-harming as a teenager. I don't really know what to think about it now.

I was just in a lot of pain. A lot of... Being a teenager is so complicated and horrible. And when you feel really alone, you know, it's not like I... I don't know. I just felt very confused. And that was my little outlet.

I'm not proud of it. I mean, I don't know how I feel about it. I'm not ashamed of it either. Oh, do you know, that's a big theme for the book. Shame. Everyone has it in some form, don't they? You know. Oh my God, and I've got so much of it.

I felt shame for everything. Because it has such power, isn't it? Yeah. It's just taking the power back by writing about it and saying, you don't control me. Should we sit down? Why didn't we find a treat? If we go here under that tree, maybe.

I've got treats, Rafi, but I don't know. We could give her a treat. I'd probably give it to the many. You know what? I was going to try and remember the name for, auntie and uncle I really love it in your over there every and like who do you when you're on who do you think you are

yeah and things and you go and see your uncles and is it mamaji mammaji's mom's brother yeah so every it's a really good indication of how important family relationships are because every single person has a specific name depending on how they're related to you

mum's brother is mammaji dad's brother if he's older is thaiaji if he's younger it's jacha so people will know if I say oh that's and Chacha, you'll know it's the dad's youngest brother. Oh, I like Chacha. Chacha. Chacha, I like a chacha. And his wife is a chachi.

I'm sorry I forgot to have children because Chacha would have been a great name. Oh, I love it. Oh, yeah. So, um... I love that. I forgot to have children. That's me.

I just forgot. I'm going to use that. Um, so when you got to... You got to university, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jammed it. Jammy, jammy. didn't get the grades.

I wanted to get onto this course at Leeds, but got in on an interview, which I told my husband that recently. It was like, that doesn't happen. He's like, that's so jemmy. But that tells you a lot about your sort of skills, really, doesn't it? Do you know what I mean? In terms of, yeah, I could talk a good game.

What I've realized, looking back, it's like, yes, I could charm and chat. But also, I watched a lot of TV and listened to a ton of radio. they were my access points to culture. And you were doing a, it was a media degree that you were doing at Leeds. Yeah, it was brilliant, absolutely loved going to uni. It was the best time. And it was a great course, but they did a placement year.

That's why it was so tough to get onto. So I did six months working at a program called the Ozone. Do you remember that? I remember Jamie Thiexon and Zoe Bo. Yes, yeah, and then Jay Middlemish did it. And then, yeah, yeah, loved it. Did you learn a lot there? Amazing.

Yeah, I learned that TV is a place where no one ever has to grow up. This is where I want to work. No one's in a suit. Everyone goes out every night. This is brilliant. Yeah, no, I really thrived in that environment. Just full of energy, full of excitement. And I can see it now when I'm working with young runners.

And there's the ones that turn up and they're just like, right, yes, let's do this. And I'm like, okay, you're going to do all right here. and it was so exciting being in London and I just, I don't know, I just felt like this is it, this is the start of me living the life that I want to live. I think it kind of all just fell into place. I've been doing my radio show, doing broadcasting, loved music, got this placement and thought,

this is where I'll be, but I didn't think I'd be a presenter because that was just, like, who becomes, how do you become a presenter? How does that even happen? Yeah. So I thought, you know, I'm going to make documentaries, I'm going to make television. And then someone said,

we should put you in front of the camera. And that was it. And I wasn't afraid of being in front of the camera. I mean, obviously, you know that you're being watched and you know that you're on, you're on, you know, and you're performing. But at the same time, it's really, like, you know, you interview people, you talk to people.

And it's much easier when you're asking people questions about them, because it's not about you. And I quite like that. But I don't know. Maybe it is because I'm just a bit of a show off. as well. I guess when

I don't know how to explain it I started working in tele got my first presenting jobs on Channel 5 and then thought yeah this is it this is what I'm going to do I always said I'll do it

until I can't until it doesn't pay me and then I have to think of something else to do and I always just thought if it doesn't work out I'll just go back to Bradford you know I don't

I just didn't worry about what would happen if it doesn't work out and I think that sometimes can hold people back when you're like well you know if it doesn't I just have this single that single minded attitude where I'm just going to make this work I mean it's been it's taken 20 years and it's been I've been very blessed I've like worked constantly and all the rest of it but it's just been you know sometimes it just feels like a struggle sometimes does it yeah no I mean this year's been amazing but yeah yeah I got to a point I was like, how, but then it's TV, TV presenting is never going to be an easy career, is it?

You know. When you did strictly, that was, that presumably sort of created a much wider level of recognition for you, just sort of from people in the street. How did you find that? How did you, how do you find fame? I don't know. I don't think of myself. I don't, you know, when people say that, it's like, well, I'm not famous. Like, I'm just a person on the telly that sometimes people recognize.

I'm not, I think, you know, there's levels. And I actually, I'm, just live my, like, this is my little life around here. And I go and do my job and come back. And, you know, every soft, and if I get invited, go to a nice party, which is always lovely. But that's it. You know, I'm not, you know, it's not. I know, but on Strictly come dancing, I mean, there was some, I couldn't believe it. And you kept from day one, you were out the gate.

It was like, what's going on here? I was lucky in that, that was a game shifter. Because middle, like, middle England were like, and especially women. Women were like, oh my God, we are backing you. And that was amazing. And I'd get women coming up to me in the street going, yes, go and eat her, you're representing us,

you know, you're working hard, you're getting on with it. Because that was nice. That is nice. You know, at least not shouting wanker across the street at me. It's an amazing program, and it is so many layers and levels to it. But, yeah, I don't think people like women who are too cocky, like you were saying earlier, too confident. Yeah. But then I wasn't, because I'd never danced before.

So it was all genuine. I was there like, I'm here to learn, right? Let's just do this. That's the thing I find interesting about you, is that you talk a lot about worrying about what people will think. You acknowledge that's a thing, whereas, That's something I really genuinely think with you that you seem so self-assured and driven. Is that sort of, I suppose, are kind of how you have to be really? Yeah, I think it's, you're right.

It's twofold, isn't it? I think you can be, I am very, I guess, there's a certain part of me that is very focused on my own game as well. That people say to me, oh, you know, who do you want to be like or who, who's your competition? I'm like, nobody, because I'm just so. focused on doing what I have to do and I'm a self-assured and driven I probably am I probably I am I don't like self-motivation that's like a superpower definitely when my when I'm getting up and going for a run in the morning and my husband's like oh I'm like come on have you seen that episode of friends where Monica like they're

trying to talk her down she's training Chandler she's like come on she's like banging on the door first thing in the morning and they're like make her cry talk her down because like she's too energetic and getting woman's that you must have been so thrilled about that and I know because I've been lucky enough to be interviewed by you on it and you just have such a

a lack for interviewing people really engaging and it feels like potentially not that show but just the whole concept of Radio 4 it is potentially slightly forbidding in some ways massively well by the way I loved

having you on like I was from the minute I got there I was like I'm going to do something about dogs I want to do something about dogs. We've got to do something about dogs. And it's like, got it. We're doing the dog story. Do you know how much response we got as well? It's huge.

3.2 million people have bought dogs in lockdown, you know. I was nervous as hell. Terrified. Were you? I'm absolutely petrified. Like I do cover a lot of radio too. Love it. Go in there.

Sit down. Have a great time. Thursday night would come around and I was like hyperventilating, reading my notes. My husband was like, you're going to have to. get on top of this because you can't have every single week get to Thursday afternoon and just, you know, this amount of pressure. But it's woman's out. It's like the radio show, isn't it? And then something switched where I just thought, they've employed me to be me. So I should just do that. And actually, if that's not what they want, then that's okay. But I can't pretend to be something. I can't go in there and all of a sudden think, I need to be all radio for whatever that means. Yeah.

But yeah, it feels like an important space to be in definitely, definitely. I mean, I love radio. I'm still learning, you know, there's still, it's still such early days. By the way, oh my Lord, Ray, I could just say therapeutic, just stroking Ray. Isn't it lovely, Anita? You're right. Can you tell me about meeting Buffy, please? Yeah, so we met at a warehouse party, which, which, you know,

I said once and the Express put this pit put the headline up shocking way Anita Rani met husband that's so shocking. Depraved ravers. I love going at love. Club culture was really part of my coming of age like going to uni in the late 90s.

I went clubbing a lot. Then I never met the Indian and my mum was like, oh her white friends when is she going to meet this Indian son-in-law of mine? And then I was invited to a party when I was in London and I walked into this warehouse house and it was the 80% of the people in the room were all the Asian misfits from all over Britain. It's like, ah, my people, here you are. Tattoo covered, pierced, like just, you know,

the rejects and the misfits and the outsiders. And we all sort of bonded and like Bupy was part of that crew. And it was all very quick though. We sort of, he proposed after six months. Wow. I know. Toby thought, this is it. Get her. Get her. Get her. I mean, I'm. I'm getting the impression as well that Mama Rani was very happy. She was over... And what did she say when you told her? I phoned her and said, I've met someone.

She's like, what's his name? I'm like, bupinda. Bhupinda! Indian! Oh! That was it. That's it. Like, that was the agenda. So mad.

So mad. I have these conversations with her. Now I'm like, oh, you just couldn't wait for me to get married. And now I think she's like, oh. I'm sorry. And you didn't want a big Indian wedding in Bradford, did you? Not at all. You did not want that.

Ever, ever, I was never going to be that girl, Emily. Not that girl. I was going to elope. I was going to be in like Hackney Town Hall. This, like, I was going to just do something radical that no other Asian girls done before. Like, go and do my thing. And I had a big Indian wedding in Bradford. 450 of my nearest and dearest.

I call it my Punjabi sweat fest. Three, no, it started a week before, but three days of intense ritual and celebration ceremony. I went to India to do my shopping. I did the lot. I basically just reverted to type. And it was, yeah. And the aunties must have been in their element.

Oh, my mom's, oh, they said, look at her. So successful, living in London, and look, made her parents so proud. had a big Indian traditional wedding. I'm fuck! And you managed to meet at Punjabi? I know.

Well, that's a funny thing, isn't it? It's a funny, funny thing. But I suppose, you know, my Indianness is really important to me. My culture is really... I'm very rooted in many ways, and I love speaking the language, I love eating the food, I love India. And to meet somebody who innately gets it,

innately is just having said that like you know obviously there's obviously there's differences but he just gets it and that's nice makes it there's something quite comforting about that I like you talking about the wedding and I mean you went the the full I mean that we had the horse even oi Rafi be nice she started to do this I don't know why

how are you Anita with anger oh Well, like my dog, apparently. Like what is going on, Rafi? Sit down, sit down. I couldn't help them, don't it? Rafi? She's not done that before.

This is a post-period thing. I don't know what's going on. She's changed. She's being very territorial. I was very angry, yes, yes. There's a chapter where I talk about my anger being legitimate. And once I read that, once I wrote it, I've listened to all the podcasts and stuff

where women are like, we shouldn't be angry. and I'm like, oh God, fuck, I just talked about being angry. No, I mean, I need to get past the anger. Yeah, I'm, you know, off... How do you process your own anger? And I know you grew up in the kind of family where people were open about. Anger, yeah, yeah.

Where do you put your anger? So, for a long time, I didn't know where to put it. And now I've put it in the book, so that's a good start. And I guess what I'm trying to do now is use it for purpose. Because, yeah, I talk about being angry because, yeah, there was a lot of anger in my home environment. But also, I was angry because of what I saw growing up, like just patriarchal bullshit all around me. And women having to put up with stuff from men and not having a voice. And it's just from a very young age just really infuriated me.

And so now what I recognise is actually there's ways of dealing with that and which is, you know, talking about it and exposing it and not, and saying that we want better. But yeah, and also I guess I wanted to own the anger because, you know, we're told particularly women of colour that if you are angry, then you have a problem, right? And I think women generally can understand that. It's not just a women of colour thing.

There is obviously that intersectional dimension that is really important to acknowledge. But I think all women can understand that. We're meant to be quiet and just put up with things. And if you're angry in the workplace, or you're angry that the man got the promotion or he got the pay rise, then it's our problem,

which is just such nonsense. And we have so many reasons to be angry. We've got centuries and centuries of anger built up inside us. And I think... You just nodding. Yeah. I think it's time we just said, we're angry and that's okay. Sometimes just, you know, it's good to just have a good old scream.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I noticed having watched your, who do you think you are, which was so brilliant because it really opened my eyes and I think it was actually really important, you know, often they're personal and unique to that person, but in your sense, I just think it was a really extraordinary episode. You know, I found it incredibly moving your response and I know you went on to make a a documentary as well and I get the sense doing who do you think you are really shifted something

for you, didn't it? 100%. 100% like shifted something in me personally because I learned something so profound about my own family. So my grandfather and my mum's dad was in the Indian Army and partition happened. He was married, had two children, but I didn't know any of this. And he was away with the army when the partition of India happened, that's the point where the British left and it was lit in the blood, the most horrific atrocity took place, like 15 million people displaced, a million people died and he lost his entire family, lost his father, his wife and his two children. I never knew he had a daughter, which really troubled me. I didn't know the name of his first wife because no one in my family had spoken about it. So I discovered all this

when I made The Who Do You Think You Are? And it really affected me deeply. Just, and I, and I, It was more than just the story of my grandfather and my family. It just became the story of women and how there's just no voice or choice. Because I've found out that lots of women were either murdered by their own families, murdered by whoever their enemy was, Hindu, Sikhs, Muslims, or they just took their own lives so that they wouldn't. And the men in the families deciding to kill the women and children to prevent them from what they saw.

you know, was a future of being raped, presumably, or defiled. But not even giving them a chance, you know. And I, and very much it's that it was shame as well, isn't it? No one would want those women after. But there was one guy you were, I burst into tears when I was watching. You were talking to that guy and he'd watched his own father. Kill everybody to kill all the women. The women in his family.

Yeah, so he saw his sisters, his aunts, his cousins all beheaded. It's so horrific to think about. But he said to you, I always remember, really stuck with me that documentary. He said, you're very strong to listen to this. Yeah.

I was like, he witnessed it. You lived to her. Yeah, you were there. And then they talk about, the men talk about how the women were really brave

and, like, they all came forward. And I feel that is a coping mechanism for them to have to remember the women being brave. I don't buy it. And I just, and that was only 70 years ago,

you know, it's our grandparents' generation. not talking centuries ago. So I'm very aware that I, two generations before me, the choices for me would have been very different. The director did say to me, he said, we've set these things up and we have people, the stories that you genuinely don't know what you're going into, you don't know who you're going to meet, you don't know what's happening tomorrow, they just take you into

the scenario and you do it 10 days consecutively, so you're in it. So what you're, you're living it as they're, where. living it. And he said, you set these things up, but you just don't know which direction the story's going to go in because it's very much dependent on the subject and how invested you are in your own story.

He says, not everybody cares that much. And sometimes they just go, okay, yeah, that's great. Thank you. You move on to the next day. But he said that scene flipped the switch from it being something where I'm learning about my history to something that was incredible. So personal.

And that's the same. You do a show as well called Save By. a stranger. Oh yeah. I really recommend people watch because it's again it's seems to play to your strengths which is very much connecting with people and they're and getting to the heart of their story really. I absolutely loved it. Yeah that was a really important program saved by a stranger where it's like people telling a big piece of history and where two people met and you know had an encounter and then trying to find that saved by a stranger where it's like people telling a big piece of history and where two people met and then trying to find that person for them.

But it meant, you know, like spending time with the people opening up to me about their story. And it wasn't just me, like the whole production team. Everyone behind the camera was just as invested. Like, you have to be when you're talking about people's real lives. But also, I just feel like I get to know people so well. Like the final story, on the final episode, I tell the story of these two amazing twins who left Nazi Germany at the age of six. Now they're 87, both them, Peter and George.

the most incredible men you've ever met like just sprightly and alive, alive. But I felt like I was part of their family. I was like, I just turned up and like, oh, I'd love a cup of tea, you know. I just felt like I'd known them forever. That's like, that's magic, isn't it? Like, I mean, ultimately we're all,

I know it sounds really hippie to say it, but like we're just all the same, you know? We just, that's it. There's this idea that like, I don't know, you know, it's... I don't want to say anything too political, but, you know, like Brexit Britain and, you know, and the other and people coming to our island. It's like, no, we're just all the same. And actually people have been coming to this island for a long time.

Oh, God, that took it off on a tangent. That'll come back to haunt me. Can you tell me what Buffy was? say about you. If I said what thing, I mean, just to, it's your choice, you can tell me or I can call him.

Would he say, if I said to Bupy, is there anything that, that annoys you about her? What would Buffy say? He would say that I'm probably too focused on, she's so focused on what she has to do. It's like,

that's what I think he would probably say, you know, it's like, oh, okay Buffy. No, I don't know what he'd say. How are you, what are you like, with conflict. Absolutely disaster. I can't do it. I can't, I hate it and I don't know why.

I wish I was one of those women who were like, now, sit down, can we talk about this? I can't, I'm not that. I'm like, I don't want any conflict. I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm like, you know, I think I'm very masculine in that way. You know, if we're talking stereotypes when it comes to comfort. Come here, Raffi.

Sit down, buboo. Good girl. Emily, no wonder you're doing this podcast doing so well you're an absolute dream to talk to you're so genuine and invested but just like absolutely you know I've like word gets round word gets round and like you were great when you came a woman's hour so I felt like I'd known you for ages you just have that ability to just talk from the heart which is very do you know what I'm a bit but that's why I love your style because I really like if I'm watching who do you think you are um I don't it's the difference between feeling like you're taking me on your journey,

which is what I feel when, and even if that's saved by a stranger, like there's such skill involved in that kind of interviewing, that, you know, you put your arms around the people, you're engaging with them. And I think, isn't it weird that we didn't think for years, I wonder if there's, I wonder if women might do this in a good way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and you feel like when I, I just did, like, I worked, should we move away? Yeah, should we start walking?

Let us start walking towards the coffee shop. Yes. Did you drive or did you? I did actually because I'm very 80s. Oh, I'm 80s too. And everyone here. Do you love driving? I love driving. I love it because we're control free.

Yes, we are, aren't we? Thank you. I'm a complete control freak. No, I haven't taken Rafi off the lead and I feel okay about that. I am going to do that soon though, but my husband's going to do it. Bupy will come together. Bupy will do that. She's Bupy's dog.

I mean, she's mine. Obviously, I love you. love her, she's mine, but like they are best buddies. If like me and Buffy have a little cuddle or he comes and chats to me, she comes and barks at him. She barks. Well, you're talking about confrontation and you're not good at it. So do you find, let's say you're in a work scenario, Anita, and someone says, there's something difficult. You know those difficult conversations you have to have? Pretty much on a daily basis when you work in this kind of industry. How do you deal with it? Do you just steal yourself and... I'm really,

Oh, this is a complicated... I'm just rubbish, right? So first of all, it's like, I don't... I'm lucky, but I don't have to be in an office situation. I'm not... I don't have to get into office politics. I love that. My husband's like, you'd be shit.

I'm like, I know. I don't... I am... And, uh... I don't speak my mind often enough. Do you not? I'm just changing now. I'm getting a bit better at it.

Also, it's great. As a TV presenter, you don't have to do anything. You just phone your age. and say, can you deal with that? Can you deal with this? This has happened. I don't know what to do about it. Can you talk it out?

Okay, fine. And you just turn up and smile. But yeah, I'm terrible at conflict. I don't know. It's something I need to work on. Also, being able to just speak properly, openly, and just say what I really think. That's coming.

It is happening. It is happening. But let's say we were trying to record something and there was noise going on. Oh, right, yes. And we needed them to move away. Would you say, would you mind? Yeah.

I'd say it really nicely. I'd say, oh, you won't mind awfully. You would? I would, yeah. That's why I think you're more involved than me, because I'd go, oh. That's so... Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's what I'm thinking. Do you cry a lot? Not, I used, not... Now I've started to, yes. I cried out the other day, the last thing I cried out. Have you seen Mayor of East Town? See Kate Winslet? Yeah.

I mean, can we please discuss? Talk about proper women depiction on TV. I almost cried at how happy it made me. Watching her just also, there was something about her not having to be a sort of attractive as a person at all the time, that she was flawed and... She was a mess.

Yeah. And a life was a mess. And horrible tragedies had happened to and she had this complicated relationship with a mum. And she's angry. and she doesn't know how to deal with her emotions. That's what I liked, you know. I liked that she was grumpy and wasn't just,

but was full of heart. Why do you think you cry more? I have no idea. Because it's interesting, I've got a theory about this. Yeah, go on. I think we so associate it with weakness. And sometimes I think it's just not being able to express anger crying, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

a much better way of dealing with it rather than lashing out. Just having that. And I think you're right, it's weakness. People, we associate it with weakness, which is why, actually I say it in the book, you know, boys don't cry, but in my family the girls don't cry either. Do they not? No, I've just seen women just suck it up and get on with it. Because as soon as you cry, you've made it.

And this is genuinely what I feel like the women, I've just never seen my mum cry, I never seen my aunties cry. And it's like, because they just had to get on with it. And as soon as you cry, you're kind of breaking down the walls and you've let something go. And they've just never been allowed to let themselves go in that sense. However, when they sit down to watch a Bollywood movie, they will sob their eyes out.

So I think that is their capacity. And I'm the same. I'm flipping cried a lady in the tramp the other day. Great movie. So the women in your family, you've absorbed that sort of enduring spirit and tenacity and come on, let's get on with it. But hopefully your generation is going to be able to also speak up more. And not have to put up with what the... Yeah, no internalised emotions maybe.

Absolutely. And when I talk about my Indian culture and like the South Asian culture that's been imposed on me, it's not too far removed from all women. You know, to some extent, we're all still fighting a battle, right? I mean, I am a feminist, though. And there's still a long way to go. And but with my Punjabi culture, I sort of feel sometimes we're still kind of, it's within one generation, we've gone from Victorians to the 21st century.

you know so what was expected of my mum it's like this the leap the cultural contrast between my life and my mums is huge yeah um so they've had to do a lot of adapting and you know my mum is like the one who said to me she said I'm so proud that you've written this book because you're saying things that I could never say and I'm so glad that you're saying it she says you're saying it because you've got a platform and you should say it and she said tell them tell them where I went wrong because she said I didn't know any better. Bless her. I think your parents seem to have done a pretty good job with you guys. Yeah. Yeah, they have. Through it all. You're quite well adjusted and relaxed, aren't you? I would never say you're not remote, you don't seem remotely

neurotic. Should we call my husband? I'm not. I'm not. I do put a lot of pressure on myself, though. I could ditch with ditching some of that. So you're going to go back with Rafi now. Yeah. And she's going to have some lovely lunch. And then you're, do you walk her every day, Anita? Yeah, absolutely. If I'm around, if I'm filming them, it's Buffy.

Oh, she'll go to the office with Buffy and have a walk. Has she really changed your life? This dog is the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like, I just didn't know I could love something so much. I go away filming and I've never missed Buffy as much as I miss Buffy as I miss. the dog. Poor bookie. Sometimes I leave my phone behind and take her for a walk.

Oh, I do that. Isn't that amazing? I do that. And do you know? It's the most liberating thing. Do you find a lot of people that do this podcast, I say a lot of people, Lee Mack. How funny is he? He's the funniest man.

Oh, don't tell him that. He'll be a nightmare. No, go on. To Em, what does she say about me? What does she say about me? I said you were funny, Lee. he has been on this podcast twice because the first time he didn't have a dog

and was embarrassingly inept I mean he went So he came on the walk the dog podcast without a dog He's a friend so he was doing it initially Because he did it be fun And he wanted to see what it was like But his first two things he said Firstly he said when the dog did a poo he said

Call the police But the other thing he said Was there's so much talking involved And dog walking You talk to other people We've got, we're very lucky around here. I'm very smug because I live in this area. I do love it. I've got lots of very good friends. My goddaughters live on that street. We've just walked down. And often we will,

people will join us for a dog walk. And it's the loveliest thing that you just out. And like, you know, East London, that lovely green space. There's so much green around here. And connect to nature. And she's so lovely and distracting and such a calming presence. Like she's a salt, this is what my mum always says to bring it back to Lucky. She's like, what a blessed soul to be in this household. She's like, because, you know, Indians believe in reincarnation and that the energy from one living thing will go into another. So my mum's like, she must have done something amazing in her past life

to be born as Rafi. Come on. Oh, we've got, we're going to say goodbye to Anita now. I think you really like her, don't you? Oh, Ray. He's such a nice lady. And what about Rafi? Rafi was naughty.

Rafi. Can you do your dog voice for me quickly? We'll get away from the people listening because it's highly embassies. Oh, I'm sort of crazy dog. There's something that has to be done in pro- I'll do mine, Anita, and then you can do yours, okay? All right, let's all tell us too. We'll do our dog voices. We found a quiet area, because it's frankly humiliating.

Okay. Way-way-way. Good boy, way, way, good boy, good boy, way, good boy, way, you're good boy, oh good boy, way. Why do we do? Okay, hello, Rufreff, hello, are you a good girl? Yes, my boboo, you are my booboo, yes, good girl, refra. Oh, Rafi did good. Yes, good girl, good girl, yeah.

And you see, her name is Rafi, but I call her boo-boo, I call her riff-rav, I call her rafety, yes. I mean, everything, like that's the Punjabi and me. Give her a name, but don't call her it. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that, and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.