Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Anna Williamson (Part One)

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Joining Emily and Raymond for a stroll today is the fabulous Anna Williamson! We met Anna in beautiful Hertford to chat about her endlessly fascinating life and career. From joining a girlband when she was 17 and then becoming a TV presenter... this woman has done it all. Anna now hosts two incredibly successful podcasts - LuAnna and The Affair - and she also stars as one of the experts on Channel 4's Celebs Go Dating! We discussed Anna’s childhood in a house with three brothers and golden retrievers. She explains why she feels so strongly about when it's the right place and time to give an opinion and we also discuss the profound effect of grief - and the moment Anna decided to live her life to the fullest. Follow @annawilliamsonofficial on InstagramFollow @annawilliamson_official on TikTok Keep up with everything Anna here - including links to listen to her fabulous podcasts LuAnna and The Affair. You can also find links there to purchase Anna’s brilliant books including Breaking Mad: The Insider’s Guide To Conquering Anxiety. Celebs Go Dating series 14 is currently airing on E4. You can catch up here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mind that poo. Mind that poo. Don't get in that poo, M. Can you not use as a trailer, don't get in that poo, eh? This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I visited Hertfordshire to take a stroll with TV presenter, therapist and dating expert on Channel 4's Celebsgo Dating, Anna Williamson. Anna has had such a fascinating career. This woman has packed so much into her life. She was in a girl band briefly as a teenager. Then she became a... a very successful kids TV presenter and entertainment reporter. But during this time, she found herself really struggling with her mental health,

which she sought out counselling for. And it was this that inspired her to train as a counsellor herself, so she could help others facing similar issues. She's since, of course, gone on to become one of the most well-loved relationship experts on TV through her work on Celebs Go Dating. And by the way, there's a brand new series on Channel 4 now. So do get involved immediately because you also get to hear Rob Beckett's sublime commentary. Anna and I hit it off instantly. Unsurprisingly, she's so easy to talk to and incredibly open.

And we also had a really touching moment together during our chat when we shared our experiences of loss. So there were a few tears, but there were also plenty of hugs. Not just for me. Ray naturally demanded some as well. Anna also has two brilliant podcasts, which I really recommend. affair where she chats to people about the emotions and consequences of a real life affair. And it's a really interesting, judgment-free look into the reasons behind infidelity. She also does a very funny podcast called Luanna with her pal, Louisa Zisman. So do yourself a favour and give both of those a listen.

I loved my chat with Anna, even if she didn't manage to find Ray a day on our walk. To be honest, given the state of his hair that day, I think that would have been asking for a miracle. really hope you enjoy our chat. Here's Anna and Ray Rey. I would say the majority of people that come to Hartford all come from North London, me included. Everybody comes here because it's kind of, it's sort of the best of all the world.

There's the countryside with the county town. It's all a bit bougie, but then it's also just really chilled. Like, it's lovely. I mean, I've been here two minutes and already Anna Williamson has convinced me to move to her mother. This is how persuasive and charismatic. this woman is, but we knew that anyway. Well, you're very sweet.

Well, you're very, I'll take it, quite honestly. I'll take it, Em. My dog, he's a bit of a stick of the dump, as you can see. He looks like Stig of the Dump. Well, I was going to say anything but Stig of the Dump, quite honestly. He's the most pretty, pretty little pooch, I think I've ever seen. Hello, darling. Where do you want to go?

Did you hear that? The glamorous and Anna Williamson calls you. Em, I need you on, I need you permanently with me. Mind that poo. Mind that poo. Poe. Mind that poo. Don't get in that pooem. I mean, there you go. That's a downside for Hartford. There you go. Can you not use as a trailer, don't get in that pooing? It's not my kind of podcast. I've heard Joel Luanna podcast. Well, that's a whole new ballgame and is for, and I wear many hats, as you know, and I have to very carefully and delicately manage my different hats. Where do you fancy going? Well, I tell you what, Ray is a bit of a shady boy. Do you want to go here? Where shall we go?

Come over this way with me and what we will find is a little path here and then it goes over the river. Oh, and this is, we're in. Do you want to introduce officially your manner? Yeah, well, yes. Well, this is, we're in Hartford, in Hertfordshire. And honestly, M and Raymond, I don't often,

well, I say, I don't often welcome people into my manner. Of course I do. But I am very private about my life, yeah. For someone, that might sound a complete lie and quite ironic, considering that most of my work, I tell everybody about my life with all the different jobs that I do. But yeah, I guess, you know, as they say, you know, your home is where your heart is and that's very true for me. So yeah, this is Hartford. This is the county town, obviously, of Hertfordshire. Hang on, let's go through this way.

Let's go this way, Roe, right. We'll get you in the show. But I live in a small village just outside. But this is kind of the most of the most of the Mecca. So I have happily popped my children into a holiday camp today because they, just down the road from here, because they're desperate to go, because quite honestly, and the summer holidays are far too long. Yes, I've heard this. I've heard people say this. Well, and this is no shit, because I think, you know, a lot of people then, and I get it, you know, clap back and say, oh, can people stop moaning about their children and not, I don't think it's not moaning about your children. It's moaning about the load, the emotional load and the physical.

load. Like I love my kids. I had my kids by design because I wanted to have children. The best thing I've ever done in my entire life was become a mother. And I'm a working mother, but even if I wasn't working, I think rearing kids is the hardest thing in the whole world, the most rewarding thing for sure. But it's hard. And I think when these summer holidays, I've never heard so many, particularly mothers, and fathers too, but I just hear it particularly from mothers, that the The load is getting more because it's expensive. You know, there's no provision for working parents, really. Not enough, you know.

And it's expensive. I think I read a news article the day. It's over £1,000 per child for the summer holidays to, you know, for childcare, you know, or camps and stuff. And I spoke, by the way, should say, we're going over the most beautiful Winnie the Pooh Bridge. Yes. This is so beautiful. Things like this make my heart very happy.

Do you know what I mean? Quite honestly, this is why I live out in the countryside because I'm very connected to nature and it's just, it's so important for my mental health. I've had like two massive mental breakdowns. So living back in the countryside is my equilibrium. It's my happy place. I've got Raymond with me today, my little prince.

He is gorgeous, by the way. And I need to ask the question. No dog. Do you not have dogs? I love dogs. And actually, it's funny that you've got Raymond with you because I'm quite pleased my eight-year-old boy isn't with us at the moment because he is desperate for a dog. I've always grown up with poochies. And let's just say it in the moment, just because of, look, as you know as well, dogs are like a child.

You have to be committed to having a dog. Do you know, it's so hot. And so I think I just carry him when it's this hot. My friend and I are just going to sit under a tree. Yes. He gets very warm. He gets some shade, yeah. His eye candy, though.

His eye candy. But I've always grown up with dogs. I adore dogs. I think animals and pets are so cathartic. I have a cat at the moment. Dean, what's the cat called? Who's a bit like a dog cat. Teddy is my cat.

He's a rescue cat. I've had him for 14 years. But we sort of borrow dogs. So my parents who live really near us, they have a lab called Poppy. So we sort of have a dog, in inverted commas, but she doesn't actually live with us

so they take all of the sort of responsibility side of it we have the fun bit at the moment I know but my son really wants my kids really want a dog which we really do want to get another one but you know you have to be really geared up for having a dog they are a complete commitment

and it's two kids you've got Anna so I've got Vincenzo who's eight Vincenzo is great and Eleonora who's five so yes they are two little cockyrockets Italian names? It's your heartro Italian? My husband, Sicilian.

Oh, Sicilian is a godfather, I'm saying. And you know what? It really is. It's really funny. We're celebrating our 10th wedding anniversary. Oh, congratulations. Oh, thank you in a couple of months. And it's really funny because I've become so used to sort of what it's like to be integrated into Italian culture. Because, and I find myself, you know, we were on holiday just in the late district.

Italians are very snobby about food. And we were just at the lake district. And my husband said he wanted to go to this cafe Italia that he kept seeing. Oh, Ray's got an admirer. Ray has got an admirer. I mean, you were on the celebrity dating agency. I'd say this is a match. I'd say this is a match.

Ray has found a Raymonda. Do you think the first date's going on? Is it okay for a first date for them just to sit there and look awkward and not speak? Well, I mean, it's not an ideal first date. But then again, that dog was sniffing Ray's bum. So I wouldn't typically go into a first date and start sniffing each other's genitals. But, you know, whatever works, you know, float your boat, you do you. Do you know what was awful, Anna?

That was such a typical day. Well, as soon as Ray expressed an interest, that dog was off. He's been ghosted. He's been ghosted, Ray. Sorry, dude. But, you know, he's responded. He's let us know how he feels by kicking his leg. Yeah, he has.

So go on and save your partner. So, yeah, going on, on about wanting to go to this, you know, Italians keep out, yeah, perfect. Italians, I've come to a conclusion, or my husband anyway, needs to seek out, doesn't matter where you are in the country or the world, needs to seek out Italian food. So anyway, we go into this place and then he walks straight back out again. Yeah. Turns his nose up and says, oh, no, it's not authentic Italian. They're not authentic, they're not Italian owners.

We're not going here. Oh, really? So it then gets all sniffy about it. So, and I have to admit, I was the same. I was like, oh, no, well, no, it needs to have. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be like non-num age. You know what I mean?

Very glamorous, though. Well, yeah. I mean, well, actually, this was interesting is that Sicilians are not glamorous. You know, Sicilians are very, you know, you've got Milan, you've got the northern Italians, you know, who are the chic ones. And then Sicilians, hey, Raymond. Oh, we've got to take a picture of this, Faye. Come on. Anna and Ray on the Wimbledon Tau.

Me and Ray. Ray. Do you know what, Anna? He's got such a calm energy. He's a lovely energy. Oh, that means a lot to me from you. I think of you is the energy sort of... Oh, bless you, thank you. The energy saw. Oh, I'll take that. I'm all about energies and instinct and environment, which is why... Welcome to my environment, which is... which is nature and home and where I... grew up on and off. In fact over there is the tennis club which I'm just about to sign my daughter up to. You said you lived in North London when you were growing up. No I actually lived here. My parents are all from North London.

Both sets of my parents are from North London, my grandparents and then my mum and dad moved out when they were pregnant with my older brother and like a lot of North London as it seems They all kind of travel up the A-10 or the A-1 to Hartfordshire really, which is kind of the first stop for, I would say, a bit of country life, but you're very accessible into London. And so, yeah, we settled it. They moved here in the late 70s when my brother was born, and my parents still live in the family home that I grew up in.

Oh, that's so nice. About 10 minutes from him. Have they done that thing of it? I hate it when they convert the bedroom into it like a guest room. You're like, oh, my God. But all my cabinet posters have come down or whatever. I lost my bedroom years ago, decades ago. My kids now have bedrooms in my parents' house.

But, no, I can kiss goodbye to a bedroom in my parents. It's the other way around now. I'm in that generation of the sandwiched generation, where you're now looking after your rapidly older parents and your kids. So I think they'll all be living with me eventually. And what did your parents do? What sort of line of work were there? in? So my dad was in property. So he had a property firm. So he was, yeah, anything from, well, he,

it was actually my grandfather's in North London. So it was a family business, yeah, which started out as an estate agent's, but then evolved in property management, bit of development. So essentially a sort of a property firm. And he retired. How long did he retire? I'd retired too early. He suddenly found himself very bored, but now he's managed to get himself in for a few more interests. And my mum's had many jobs. She was medical secretary, magistrate. But then she raised us, actually.

And you've got two brothers. Two brothers, yeah, one older, one younger. And yeah. And so, yeah, I'm very blessed, actually. It's only now being an adult, being a grown-up, not that I feel like it sometimes. And with my own kids. And I guess also as a therapist, really, I really recognise, you know, how brilliantly my parents did. And the choices they made so selflessly, actually, to give us kids, you know, a really stable upbringing.

And they're still together. Yes. Yeah, 55 years, I think, together, yeah, marriage, yeah. I mean, I think they'd admit it's and it's ups and its downs. Of course. But you'd be the first to understand that. Of course. And I see it through a new lens now, actually.

Do you? Yeah, I bet you do. I do. I see them as human beings, not just my parents in that respect. Well, that's growing up, though, isn't it? People say that's when you finally... I remember my dad when I was very young, because he was a bit of an intellectual and didn't believe in sort of... When I say talking down to kids, in talking normally to kids, he talked to us like we were sort of old people. And he said, old fairy stories are about killing off your parents. And we were like, what? We were like crying. And he said, no, no, that's what they're about. He said it's about this he said it's a psychological thing like we're six we don't know what that means He said this psychological does a need to kill off your parents so that you can view them as flawed and human Wow sounds like you did that though and that's everyone has to do that don't they I suppose Yeah, I think it's just evolving I think as we start to grow up we I think a lot of us put our parents on a pedestal well I did I was bought up and very traditional values, I would say, in the sense that, you know, about, you know, good behaviour,

manners, kindness, do as, do as we say, but not as we do, but they were very good role models. Don't you think those things that your parents, my mum's very into manners and it used to drive me nuts on it, but all the little things she taught me, I'm so grateful for now, like she used to make me and my sister sit at this table, you have to do your thank you letters. And we're like, oh my gosh, the bloody thank you letters. And you know, what? It is the absolute top of etiquette, isn't it? And I make my kids do it.

I make my kids do it, yeah. And I go as far as to say, genuinely, I say if they don't if they don't send a thank letter or thank someone, I will say to that person, please don't buy them a gift. Because I feel that strongly about them not taking things for granted. I am such a disciplinarian. Kind of disciplinarian.

Yeah. When I say disciplinarian, I love and boundaries, yeah. 100%. And I think just in the world in general, people go on about, oh, it's changed. And it has. it's interesting for the younger generation they're in a whole different age now you know with the digital age and I think you know a lot of that social

communication and manners is getting lost sometimes so for me and as parents I think it's so important that we double down even more yeah just social etiquette and actually you say about parents I remember my mum and dad in the 80s you know certainly didn't go out for dinner all the time like we do now no kids go out all time with us oh let's go to this you know pizza express it's go here or whatever. No, there was one at High Street Italian or something you might go to. Yeah, exactly. As a special occasion or something. But my parents used to take us out fairly frequently, I'd say, often for Sunday lunch, like in a pub or something. And I'll always remember them being

sticklers for table manners, and they still are now. And I always remember them saying, you know, it says a lot about you, you know, how you eat around, you know, dinner table. And it's not just your actual table manners. You know, how, you know, using knives and forks and, you know, cutting your food properly. And, but being able to. whole conversation and when conversation is important around the table. And not turning your back on the person next to you, things like that. Right, but also feeling comfortable to be able to pass food around. And obviously, as a kid, took it all for granted.

I didn't realize they were teaching me what I now considered to be such a valuable life skill. I think you're right because you realize it's not dinner. You know, it's not about the dinner. It's about when you walk into any environment and why I suppose you teach kids stuff like that, it's so that you feel you have a right to be at the table. Exactly. It's about holding your own. It's about self-esteem. It's about projecting confidence and self-worth. And you take it for granted, but actually I think you're probably right in that I've

always, because my mum was, I mean, my mum was a bit ridiculous. She was like, oh God, never hold your fork like a dagger. Yeah. People that do that. They function like they use it like a dagger. That was our rule was don't hold your knife like a pen and your fork like a dagger. That's right. That's right, right, right. Now, that is just more of an etiquette thing. And it is etiquette. But I think for her.

But I'm good for etiquette too. I think why not? I think what she felt is etiquette is possibly maybe it's like the gateway to manners. Right. But I look at my, you know, my children now and, you know, they're rapidly growing up. And I love seeing it through their lens now as well because the things I'm trying to teach them, like table manners, how to use a knife and a fork effectively, not to sit with using a screen whilst they're eating their tea.

It comes with, well, why? And it's a perfectly valid question. Why is it important? You know, my son, nearly nine, you know, kicking back at exactly, as you say, with your mum, you know, he's got the fork in this hand, you know, stabbing it like an arrow, you know, and he's got his knee up on the table. You know, my daughter's got her foot up on the other table.

And I've said to them, look, you can do that if you want, you know, when you're grown up in your own own. You're like a hostile approach. But this is it. But I said, if you go into exactly, exactly that, it's just not socially acceptable. And neither do I believe it should be. I think, you know, manners is something that we should uphold. I do think we should. Because our children are like sponges.

They pick up on everything that we do. Raven's a bit like a sponge as well. I've trained him not to bark. I'm convinced of that. Did he not bark at all? He's never barked. But you know what I think? I think dogs are so sensitive to,

they pick up so much on your feelings. Because he came into my life when I was pretty sad and I was struggling with grief. I really think dogs sort of feel, oh, is this what I'm here for then? I need to be quite quiet. It's not, I can't be one of those, it's all about me, dogs.

I have to be a little bit chill. Yeah, dogs are so. intuitive I'm such a fan I know he loves you a little snow I love him but I think I mean look we're a nation of dog lovers aren't we and I'd go as far as to say no a nation of animal lovers they are so special I mean I've had dogs all throughout my life and when you were growing up you had yeah dogs all the time yeah we had my first dogs were retrievers sapphire and sable do you know I knew you were going to say that I really was figuring a retrievers for the Williams

I don't know, I really like, your family would have been my dream. It's that white middle class twee, yeah, that we had the retrievers. I call it the dream. Yeah, well. Because I had a very chaotic, bohemian actors moving around, you know, parties with actors till the night. And all I wanted was the Williamson life of, there's the dog bowl, there's the retrievers. Should we put the breakfast bowls out the night before? Yeah, riding the retrievers like horses and they've been told off because you're going to break their backs.

Didn't mean I said I didn't break the dogs by I'd like to point out. So it was a very, I suppose, stable, secure childhood, wasn't it? Very secure, very secure. And I... So that means you're quite... Do you think you grew up quite well-adjusted? As a well-adjusted person? Emotionally, yes.

Yeah. I think possibly had I not had aspirations to seek more, as in like to travel, I probably would have been quite blinkered because I would say it was, you know, I had a very quintessentially lovely, traditional, whatever that is nowadays, upbringing, you know, with parents that really valued being parents, you know, and our children always came first. And, you know, they were very, and still are, you know, I still see them all the time, you know, by design. And that's what I say to mum and dad. I say, it's a, because they joke and they said, oh, I've got, you lot, they haven't moved away that far.

We haven't, we haven't. My brothers and I, we sort of ping ponged around and then we've sort of all settled within 10-mile radius of each other. That's a sign of good parenting. Exactly, and I said, but isn't that credit to you? I said, as parents, I said, I've never fallen out of my brothers, ever.

I have, my eldest brother is, hang on this, three, three and three years between us all. So I'm 44, he's 47, and then my youngest brother's 41. It's never fallen out. We speak all the time. We're on a WhatsApp chat. If you ever spoke this morning,

one of them's just gone in for an operation this morning and it's being rude as usual like jockey rude and i say that's a credit to you you always you always put your family first you always put your children first and i think that's really hard to do and they made sacrifices you know they did my mother made a sacrifice over career to be present for us focus on you guys more yeah they well they just wasn't that much but they were lucky they were lucky to be able to do that you know my dad had his own business and they were able to do that but interesting they were My mother's always been very pro me being independent and having my independence, which I have and I always have had.

I hope you're comfortable with me saying this, but you're very beautiful woman. And I imagine when you were growing up, were you conscious of being attractive? Were you conscious of getting attention? How did you feel about yourself? That's a really nice thing to say. Thank you. I appreciate that. And it's taken me, well, I never used to take confidence that easily.

I think I've practiced what I've preached, you know, as a coach but I don't consider myself you know particularly exceptionally beautiful but that's a kind thing to say thank you I think growing up I was I was sort of average I guess you know I did I always had boyfriends I always kind of I got interest from boys but I certainly wasn't you know how remember at school there was always like that absolute supermodel there's always what was yours called Ilona Bolton she was stunning and you know you're like oh my gosh just you know I've always been short you know and I remember Iona Bolton was tall and athletic and had this beautiful dark hair and you know these

beautiful Asian features and you know she was just stunning but you know I didn't do too badly myself you know I I've always I think it was quite interesting really for me because one of my best friends was a boy until I was 13 sorry he was 13 until 13 and I discovered boys yeah in a different way And I think because I grew up with brothers, I grew up, I'm very much a tomboy, which is why I think I'm probably, I can lean into my slightly tomboyish, sometimes slightly vulgar territory. Oh, I've seen celebrities go dating. I've seen.

And no matter, yeah. I can be, I'm very, I'm not easily offended. You know, I'm no prude at all. I'm very liberal in a lot of ways. Yes, you've got quite a high smart tolerance. I do. I do have a high, smart tolerance. And that, hands down, is down to having brothers and brothers who had friends.

And I just had to, I was just one of the boys. You know, when boys were doing wedgies and cupcakes farts, you know, and lighting farts, that was, that was me and my childhood, you know, I was just in it. But what was really interesting is, but boys to me, it was purely platonic, you know. And so it was really weird. I always remember that transition when I started secondary school. And suddenly, I guess we're starting to discover our sexuality or our sexual, or where our sexual preferences lie and mine was in boys.

But I remember it feeling really weird. When someone once said to me, your friend, Jack, oh, is you a boyfriend? I was like, ugh, no, he's my friend. Like, the thought of kissing him was rank. But then obviously something did shift, you know, because then, you know, I did start to like boys, you know, and then as I grew up, you know, I had my first boyfriend when I was 15 and he was lovely and he was sort of my first real boyfriend and I was with him for a couple of years and and then I kind of really have a bit of serial relationship ever since to be honest

and that's interesting I always think I knew girls who had brothers I was always aware when I was growing up there was a they felt different to me and I think the reason for that I think it's quite healthy if you can to grow up with you know, a brother or two, simply because I feel you have to spend so much of your life as a woman shedding that self-consciousness that comes with being female, that's kind of, oh, I better not do that, it looks unattractive if I swear, if I, you know, I mean, women are less like this now, but there is still to a degree of a lot of what you do is defined by how will that make me look, how will I come across. And I think, I notice girls with brothers, I don't think have quite that

level of self-consciousness because you can't. I think that's really interesting. It's such an interesting point actually, I have noticed that certainly with friends of mine that grew up with your sisters and there is a difference between the friends of mine that grew up with brothers and there is, you know, I've got friends of mine that were brothers, most of my friends actually best friends had sisters and then the couple of the friends of mine that had brothers. We were the ones that were going hard on banter. Even now, like we will go in and properly like deck each other. Like we'll properly go in and like, you know, whack each other with teetails and have a proper, you know, a proper kind of play fight and wrestle. And I think that does come with having brothers.

And I'm so grateful. I never wanted a sister actually. My cousin, my female cousin Katie, she was kind of like a sister. And I've always loved girls. I've got, I am a girl's girl. Like big time, I'm so girls' girls. Sisterhood. I couldn't champion women more.

And I love being around women. But I love being around men too. and I have an equal amount of male friends, straight male friends as well as gay male friends, as well as straight and gay female friends. You know, I have such a diverse, you know, group of friends. But I do think there is, I think you're right, actually. It's just that man.

From an anecdotal point of view, yeah, I would say that, yeah, growing up with boys around you or brothers around you, I actually didn't have and haven't really had a particular layer of self-conscious. And that's not because I have a conceited opinion of myself. I do have good self-esteem. I haven't always. But you're not having that reinforced, I suppose, by other people, you know, where you're thinking, and you see it with girls in the toilet,

young girls getting ready, and I sometimes have come across them in shops or something, I think, oh, God, nothing's changed. We think it has, but they go, oh, do I look foul? Right. I never had that. Yeah. And I don't play into it now. And I think that's why I'm so, one thing you'll never hear me ever opinionate and talk about,

not because I don't have an opinion on it, but because I think I'm a big believer in opinions are when you have something of value to add or if it's been asked for, not to be confused with not having an opinion. Do you want to start telling people that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But that's what's so interesting, Emma, and I think sometimes quite honestly, some people think I don't have an opinion and maybe get a wrong impression of me of that. No, it is actually because I don't, and also,

So I'm a therapist, I'm a coach, it's part of my makeup. I think nowadays everyone feels far too entitled to project their opinion where it's not required. It's not been asked for and it's not needed. And I think that actually plays into someone's lack of self-esteem and need for validation than it does someone like me that's going, I don't need to actually, I'm not seeking that validation of projection my opinion. One thing you'll never hear me talk about is body image. It's such a heated, constant.

debate. There are two topics which are so divisive and will always, always, always polarise. And that is body image and breastfeeding. And those are two topics I just don't enter into because no good, I believe, in my opinion, of being involved

in these conversations, everyone really comes from it. Everybody feels offended. Everybody feels not heard. And everybody is vying to I don't know what they're trying to vie for. And particularly what you say with young girls and stuff and the body confidence thing, Like, Louisa always says this how I do Luana.

She's like, you're just so, like, open about your body, Anna. And I said, yeah, I am. You say, this is Louisa, Zisman, who you do this brilliant podcast, Luana, where nothing is off the table, really. Really not. You tell each other every, I mean, I really, it's so addictive. I remember when I started listening to it, and I thought, oh, I'll be interested to hear this. Because I'd like you, I thought, what the?

Holy fuck. Yeah. They really are talking about everything. It's, it's, I mean, yeah, I think it goes, goes a bit crazy. But I respect that because I think there is an element of a lot of people

sort of want it both ways. And what I like about that is you're sort of acknowledging, well if we're going to do this, we have to sort of deliver. You can't half-ass it. Correct. And I think... I sound like you with one of your clients in the celebrity.

I don't half-asset. I think that's it. I think, you know, being held accountable is really important. And I completely appreciate some people I think must absolutely abhor what we speak about probably even me but I think what I've learned in life was what I say a lot to my clients is it not everyone will like you you know and that's okay that'd be weird if everyone did you don't we don't need to vibe everyone to like you because that would be boring you know you you don't

you know what you stand for well some people won't you know and that's okay and I think I've got to a point in my life well I am okay with with people not liking me if they don't like me they don't have to tell me they don't like me again they can keep that to themselves. If they want to tell me, that's fine too, and they're entitled to that opinion. We all make judgments. We all have opinions. And to my point, this is where, you know, in the work I do now as well, particularly in the therapy space, the coaching space, is a lot of, particularly in that world, my judgment is not necessary. It's not needed and it's not what I do. And I don't provide my opinion. I provide safe spaces for people to be their authentic selves.

So I practice what I preach. I am my authentic self, whether it's Luana, celebs go dating, sitting here in the park with you. I'm not perfect. but I'm very content. I'm very content with my choices. Have I been through hardship? Hell yeah, I have, but I'm no victim. But I'll be very honest about everything I've experienced in my life because I, and going back to the body confidence thing, I think I have, again, I blame, one of the blame, blame, blame is the wrong word. I would attribute my parents to this, but I'm very comfortable in nudity. Really? Yeah, really comfortable in nudity. Like more than most people, would you say? Probably, yeah. And I think,

But again, I think nothing of, you know, I just think it's just a body. Now, I also appreciate there are some people that have different opinions on that. I probably don't want to see me schlepping my half-naked ass around. When has it struck you that your attitude towards nudity is different to others? Give me some examples. So I think, again, this goes hand in hand with me. I've been in the theatre world for a long time. And in the theatre world, people tend to be a lot more liberal and open.

You ain't got time to be approved when you've got a 38 second quick change from a Cinderella ball gown into a Cinderella rags and you literally have 38 seconds to do it. Otherwise you are going to be butt naked in front of an audience of 2,000 people. You soon lose any inhibitions of stripping butt naked to get that quick change done. And if the dude on the flies is sitting there reading his sun newspaper having a gort, they're good for him. And I think that's a lot of where that's come from. The theatre world, everyone is a lot more comfortable with their body. But I think as well, so when I do Luanna, you know, I, Louisa and I, we ended up going viral last year with, we might have been the year before. So saltburn, the, and Sophie and I've seen that.

I know the scene you're talking about. Are you talking about, what's called it that scene? Sophie's a friend of mine, actually. She's amazing. Well, there's two, actually. There's two that scenes. There's murder on the dance floor. And then there's the scene prior to that. Which one?

Involving... Oh, the grave? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's too far for me. It wasn't a bit far for me. That's the line. That's the line.

Probably, hunting a grave is a line for me, baby. Apparently, he improvised it. He did. I went down a rabbit hole of reading up all about... So did he? Yeah, he did. He should be so lucky. Was it a rabbit hole?

Wasn't a mouse hole. Who knows? I actually wouldn't know. But, yeah, I went down a rabbit hole of that. I was fascinated how the improv around those scenes. But I really admire that, that level of just leaning into your art with no inhibitions. I think it's incredible. What we were talking about.

I admire it. I think that most powerful thing you can teach a young woman is shed your, you know, don't go into every situation thinking, do I dare, will that make me look unfeminine? You know, all that stuff that's held women back for so long. And I think... Well, because we're right of judgment. We're out of people criticising us. And I get that.

No one wants to welcome criticism in. It's the downside of social media. Everyone's a keyboard worry nowadays. The minute you say something, someone's going to say something against it. It's just the way it is, unfortunately. But that nerd on the danceful thing. So it obviously went viral in the movie, him prancing about naked to Sophie's song. And Louisa and I, because a few people obviously did it.

And Louisa and I like to dick about. so we decided to improv it and initially when we said about doing it when you say improv it to film you're both doing it yeah well I said let's do it because it's funny and then and then I think she said originally we'll put dressing gowns on and I was just like are you joking I was like babes if anything we're going in naked suits you know with stick on muffs like and I think you know this is and again there is no sort of game plan or like I say I don't actively talk about body poverty

to anything because I just always find it becomes so divisive. But I'm very comfortable in my skin. I've had two kids. I have a pooch. I've got a cesarean scar. You know, I've got saggy tears. I genuinely, but you know what? It's just the body.

The end of day, it just goes to bloody dust. You know, and I think I've spent far too much time reading up in my therapy world around people in palliative care and nobody's on their deathbed ever wish that they hadn't eaten the cake. Now, I'm saying, let's do it in balance. But you know what? It's what, it is what? I remember my sister saying to me and she, you know,

like all of us. It was like she'd say, oh, I put on a few pounds of there. And when she died, she had cancer. I'm so sorry to hear that, yeah. But the point is that she was right towards the end and she's having to, you know, she had two young kids, she's having to leave,

and she said, and I remember, and she had a very dark sense of humour. You would have loved her. But she was just wasting away, obviously, she had this cancer, which went, am I thin enough for people now? And it was really funny because I thought, God, it really brought it home to me,

literally on her deathbed, thinking your whole life, the time you've wasted dieting. Anyway, we have an ADHD jump. No, no, it's not. But no, do you know what? But actually, I think that thank you for sharing that with me. And I actually, I think you've just unlocked something in me that I haven't actually thought about. In fact, so much so it puts a lump in my throat, actually.

If where, no, where I think I do a lot of this sort of attitude I have also comes from, oh, wow, you have unlocked something in this. It's rare, I'm. but my brother, my older brothers, I know, we can have a little crime with my older brothers, oh gosh, this is something I haven't tapped into for very long time. But my older brother's girlfriend, she also, she passed away of cancer in her late 20s. And oh gosh, we can sit it out together. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Oh, no, well, you know, it is what it is. It's shit, isn't it? Cancer shit. Death's shit. But you know what is really shit, a life interrupted. This is it. And actually Laura, who, you know, I became very fond of, you know, I'm very close to my brothers, but she was, you know, she was my friend too. And she was diagnosed with sarcoma cancer in our late 20s. And, you know, we, we watched her go through that diagnosis you did with your darling sister and then, and then die. Yeah. Yeah, actually, Hartford. She's buried in church just down the road. It's Gloria a kiss. Yeah. I always do that. I go with the kiss sometimes when I mention my sister or I just go like that. It's the profound effect I think those moments have on you. And I'll always remember, and I really, it sounds really awful, utilised her death. I ran the London Marathon later that year.

And I remember feeling in chronic pain doing that London Marathon. And I remember thinking to myself, shut up, get round there. Laura's not here anymore. She'd give her eye teeth to be running this bloody marathon. Do you know what I mean? And I think she passed away at the age of 27. That's no age. She had her whole life in front of her.

And you know what, maybe like your sister too, she didn't once complain. Right up until the moment she passed away. She was so grateful. She had a little dog too, actually, who was also her, little saving grace. And I think from that moment, I just thought, fuck it. Like, fuck it. All the stupid shit that we worry about, just eat the goddamn cake. If someone doesn't like me, that's fine.

Go and like someone else. I don't mind, you know. And I think, go live your life. Go live your life to the full because we only get one chance at it. And I think probably is you found with your sister. Fuck, it's final. Once it's gone, it's gone. And I'm like, it's just shit.

Seeing someone I cared about deeply, my brother's partner, you know, the age of 27, you know, my brother at the age of 30, looking at his dead girlfriend in a coffin, it's like, that's as bad as it gets. And I think from that moment on, I was like, you know what? Life is just embrace it.

Stop hating on each other. Stop the bullshit about whether, yeah, there's so much bullshit. I see it on Instagram and stuff all the time. People just going at each other all the time. Like I said, about people projecting opinions. I'm not saying don't have your opinion. But also find the light and the love and spread the kindness and the good. And I think that's really, that plays into my work now.

Luana, it brings so many people joy, so they tell me. It brings them catharsism. It brings a bit of nonsense, a bit of silliness. It also brings some well-needed help for, for, women in particular when they're going through shit times from two empowered women that aren't afraid to say it how it is. Celebs go dating, you know, people who are, it's fun, it's great, but I can do some really good work there in relationships.

I've never spoken about that. That was so powerful, thank you. Sometimes those moments, you know, and that's the thing, it connects you with people, doesn't it? Because you only really know when you've gone through that loss, it's a, it's just a really, it's a thing you can't really put into words, you just feel it. And sometimes I like those moments when you share that with someone where you think, oh, I'm feeling what you're feeling and we've walked that path, you know. It doesn't go away.

But, Anthony Louser, it doesn't go away. No. But I think, and more so for you, you know, she was your sister. You know, my God, that's one hell of a bond. Well, no, you know, what I realise is that it's every six. There's no measure. No, there's no measure. And actually, look, I've got her nieces, my nieces, sorry, her daughters who were growing up.

They were very young when she died. The youngest one is only sort of 11 months a year. And so that's a legacy. It's amazing that actually I, with the other night, was saying to her, oh, God, mommy, she stayed alive for your first birthday. Isn't that amazing? Because she wanted to spend a birthday with you.

And you're having these conversations. And also funny things, like, oh, when she wore this terrible outfit, or she dated this awful bloke. And you think, that's really, that's lovely. And then, you know, your brother's partner, there's all sorts of additional loss with her. you know, being denied of those opportunities, I suppose. So there is no...

No, there's no measure, you're right. I think it has such a profound effect on me. My whole family and, God, not at least her family and her siblings, but it did make me realise, just don't waste any of it. Yeah, just don't waste time. I really hope you loved part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it.

And remember to subscribe. so you can join us on our walks every week.