Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Anna Williamson (Part Two)

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

Emily and Raymond are in Hertford with the fabulous Anna Williamson!In this part of our chat, we find out how Anna pivoted from girl band star to therapist to celebrity dating agent on our favourite show - Celebs Go Dating. We also discuss her own relationship with therapy and her approach to creating a safe space for her clients.This episode contains discussion of depression, mental heath and traumaFollow @annawilliamsonofficial on InstagramFollow @annawilliamson_official on TikTok Keep up with everything Anna here - including links to listen to her fabulous podcasts LuAnna and The Affair. You can also find links there to purchase Anna’s brilliant books including Breaking Mad: The Insider’s Guide To Conquering Anxiety. Celebs Go Dating series 14 is currently airing on E4. You can catch up here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with the fabulous Anna Williamson. Do go back and listen to Part, one if you haven't already, and do catch Anna and her fellow dating experts on the current series of Celebs Go Dating on Channel 4. I'd also love it if you gave us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Anna and Ray Ray. You obviously had a talent for performing. You had what I was called about the look at me, Jean, which is, do you know what to me? That person in the room who's a bit like, Mom, Dad, I'm doing the show now.

Have you met my parents? Exactly what they said about me. I was that annoying kid that was always, film me, film me. When they had like the first, you know, like the first edition of a, you know, those massive BBC camcorder home videos. Film me, film me. I was always wanted to do a play or a show. I was an annoying kid, yeah.

So you were the one in the family who was like, tonight the Anna Williamson show. Was it in the living room? I think I used to My brothers, kind of But actually it was more My brothers and I used to re- This is the tomboy again in me

Used to recreate Beverly Hills cop Seriously Who were you a sex worker They picked up? No I think I was My older brother was because it had to be axol-phoney Oh did he have the baseball jacket

I was like the sidekick dude Honestly But we were always We were always messing around Then I was always making them do a show. Fun enough, it's quite interesting. Recently, I made my kids, they've graduated. They're now doing shows.

I was like, come on, perform to the grannies. I'll tell you when it starts when kids are really young, is when little girls are about two or three, and I first think, oh, okay, she's going to be one of us. And they come into the room and they pull their dress up. You know, little girls, they get, hello. And you just think, why are you doing that? Imagine if I did that.

Well, some people want Only Fans, too. There's no shade on that, Adam. No, exactly. I'm doing that. Exactly. So this graduated too. You ending up in a girl band when you were 17 or something? 16, 17.

16. So it was Girl Force and then it became blush. Is that right? I'm obsessed with this. What was it like? It was amazing. It was crazy, actually. Yeah, I mean, I would never have actively gone down that path.

it not genuinely landed in my lap. I was babysitting. I used to babysit for the A&R guy from the record company. And it was just as the Spice Girls had launched Wannaby. So it's about 97 in that kind of area. Correct, yeah, 97. And there was this big sort of rush to then put girl bands together. And they were asked to do that.

And I then auditioned and then that was that. So he was like, I think he'd, I used to go around and do like my singing practice. because I used to have singing lessons and he used to have a soundproof studio in his house. So I used to go in there, ask if I could go in there when the kids were asleep

so I didn't wake them up. And then he, I said, you know, putting this girl band together. Do you want to audition for him? That was it really. Did you have a good voice? It's okay.

Like I wouldn't say Mariah Carey, but I'm saying, I could hold the tune together. I could hold the tune, yeah. You weren't that one at the back in the school choir, you know, that one is always going, uh-huh,

droning on. I would say I, I am a good singer. I wouldn't say I'm exceptional, but I'd say I'm a good singer. Yeah. Yeah. Is a fair analysis. And did you, when that happened, what did your parents think?

Because I'm imagining quite sensible, property business, homemaker mum, you know, doing okay. Are they thinking, oh no, please don't have a hot stop? This is where I give my parents so much credit because clearly I get it from somewhere. just being very open-minded and I think you know having gone on then to to become a therapist as well and just allowing people just to thrive yeah my parents did that and I remember I wanted to go in and they had concerns quite naturally they were like well you know we wanted to go into higher education I didn't want to I had you had started I was starting my A-levels I did GCSEs and you did well and I thought I really want to do this so they said okay well and again this is where you know, I think it was really good parenting personally, that they said, okay, but it wasn't just a free-for-all off you go. It was with boundaries, you know, with caveats. We will support you. Obviously, you have a home and food and, you know, we will support you, but we'll give this a go.

We'll give it one academic year. Yeah. And if it, you know, goes to ratchet, then we want you to go back into college, you know. Fine. Well, that's all I needed for, to prove them wrong, not prove them wrong because they hadn't said anything was wrong but they were like you know you can't just drift about you know whatever because they they said we know nothing about this industry other than oh my gosh probably feels terrifying having their daughter them suddenly prancing around the country internationally as well at some points with people they don't know it was very trusting of them when i think about it um but yeah but i made it my mission for this to not go tits up and i loved it and i had it was like it was about 18 months actually it was grueling like

ruling being yeah it's like every day like it's a lot you're never on your own like it's a lot of work and commitment um it isn't as glamorous as i think it looks you know i think people see the finished product quite rightly you know the finished product is what people want to see you know and pay to see but it's a lot of actual graft and hard work and then what happened did it just one of those things where you did the did you leave the record company or did it yeah um i left in the end it continued after me. I left. It just wasn't, it wasn't really aligning for me in the end. I felt it got to a bit of a stalemate. I, quite honestly with you, I was, you know, 17, 17, 18 at that point. They're so young, isn't you? Exactly. And I had started to feel the restrictions on my life and I wasn't liking it.

You know, I had a boyfriend. I couldn't really see my boyfriend much, you know, and I just had, I just wanted to do different things. I just found it was, you know, you are very much in a machine. And I just didn't really want to do it anymore. But you ended up in some ways it might have been good experience that performing. Brilliant. Taking us up to now, but also in between that, you then ended up having a hugely successful career as doing kids TV originally, didn't you? Yeah, thank you. I remember you actually.

And I think, oh, she's a good one. I like her. Thank you. Is it milkshake you did? I did so many. I did. Oh, gosh, kids telly. Oh, it's not what it was back then.

And it's fantastic now still. It's just different. And there were the same group of us that just used to do all the same auditions. It was myself, Fern Cotton, Angelica Bell. I'm just thinking of people, Stephen Mulhern. We were all sort of on the scene really at the same time. And I loved it. I learned so much. All of my skill set in TV, I learned for me I'm just 17 years old.

I'm proficient in live TV because that's where I cut my teeth. you know, I can fill till the cows come home, film meaning talking absolute shit, because you've got dead air to get by. And I'm so grateful to all of that because, yeah, I went from everything from Disney, Nickelodeon, ITV. You did GM TV. But I wonder if what was useful about that,

interesting, specifically working in kids TV, is when I think about what you do now, where you're bringing therapy, which can be, you know, I know having done it for a long time, it's, I mean as a patient, not as a non-year-roll, but there can be complex ideas in that and you're very good at making those accessible, I think, on a show like celebs go dating, you know,

where you're having to tackle things which might be therapeutic speak, but you break it down. I wonder if the kids stuff sort of helps with that in a way. That's a really good way of framing it and exactly that. I think because I'm quite colloquial in how I speak, we've got a visitor. There's a visitor.

little poochy hey you're doing Raymond I think because I think you're right because everything that I've experienced and everything to date yeah I'm really grateful for because I think it's just ended up with where I am now which is I am probably a little a little different to a typical therapist and in verticomers and I chose and this is what I sort of say to people lean in late lean into your differences why why follow a set pattern and I've I found you know my first book I I've written four books. So my first one, Breaking Mad, The Asides Guide to Conquering Anxiety,

was the book that I needed to have read when I was in the grips of a chronic anxiety disorder, which was something that was relatable, that was not full of jargon. I found it overwhelming. When you are in the grips, I think this is the reason I went into becoming a therapist because I have lived experience as well as professional. And I think those make the best therapist, the best coaches, because you can come at it from that first person perspective of, when you are in the grips of an anxiety disorder, depression, grief,

whatever it may be the challenge, the presenting issue, what do I need and what didn't I need? What wasn't helpful? And what wasn't helpful was overwhelming jargon. All comes from a good space. But when you are in the grips of an anxiety disorder, you are so on high alert, you can't even function, let alone read anything. And I needed someone really to, and this is essentially bare bones.

someone to tell me I was okay or I was going to be okay and that what I was experiencing wasn't complete insanity which is how it felt was there were lots of reasons for this and I needed it to be broken down into simple plain English to help me understand because unless you've done the training how that bloody hell do you understand what's going on in your neural pathways and in your brain and in you know and your stress responses you know and and in your nervous system. And that's why with celebs go dating, for example, I take all of my experience personally, professionally,

a lot of all the boring, geeky, lovely seminars that are just, I just love them. I know, I've done a sexual workshop, which is so interesting and I'm really into looking into trauma and things like that. When I say looking into, I'm really into it, as in I just find it fascinating. It's just, I'm just so fascinated in it.

But to most people, they wouldn't have a clue, you know, so you have to go top line. You have to go top line to make it So that's why I take all of my experience and my training and then I Every good therapist has rapport. The first thing you do is is game rapport with your client, which is That's what she was doing with me that therapist. Oh yeah, it's report. Yeah, I thought we were getting on It's rapport all along. It's rapport, yeah, it's therapy is called the the the the the it's called therapeutic alliance. I was going in there thinking oh shit you know what I think you're going to love this.

Why? She just talking crap to you that's up. She was lovely but my therapist for so long but you know I used to have a

thing. I never had had the guts to admit this to her and I think everyone does this with the

therapist is I would think I really like to fantasise that when she goes home she says to her

husband do you know I've had a lot of clients but the insight that Emily has given me

she really is extraordinary it's like wanting the teacher to love you it's a bit weird yes

you know You want to be top dog. I want to be top dog with your therapist. You're not the first. I offer some of my clients come in and you have to be really careful to the therapist, not to become enmeshed. I bring you gifts. Yeah, yeah, this is it.

You have to be really careful who's not becoming mesh with your clients. But you do get favourites, you know. It is just, well, you do get favoured. Well, I say favourites. I mean, I think some of my clients now that I work with, yeah, I've definitely got one or two that I see them coming up in my schedule and I'm like, oh, you know, just because, you know, they've got a very, bit of spark about them, you know, and we have a bit of a joke. But again, I think that's what

I, that's what I wanted to bring to therapy and while with my private clients with the work I do on TV and podcasting and writing columns, you know, and all the stuff I do. It's just making it really relatable. And, you know, I, myself, my peers, we've done all that hard work to understand a lot of the where's the why's the hows. We're always still learning as well. No one ever knows everything. Of course not. And that's, I think, the thing. My clients, teach me something new every single day. But what I absolutely stand on is offering a judgment-free safe space. And that, in its simplicity, I know myself from personal experience,

but also from my client, and I do it on celebs go dating, when you give that space with no caveat and they know that whatever they say, then, you know, you're sort of waiting, you know, you're waiting for that to be judged or to have that opinion or to be told off or to have an eye roll, you're not going to get that. And when you offer someone that complete freedom, they will go to paces that they've never been to before. Like you've just done for me today,

suddenly tapping back into a memory, back into my, you know, from years ago, of bringing that emotion back up again. And it's because, as you've done with me, it's feeling comfortable in that space and connecting. The reason why that came out in me, analysing myself, was because you, run and I know exactly where it was in the moment you said that your sister has said

oh am I skinny enough now I remember exactly that went straight into a buried memory of me of Laura saying something quite similar because she had a tumour on her stomach and she looked very pregnant she wasn't bless her heart it was a tumour and it touched me because I went straight into that memory of her

and seeing her smiling face and that's where it got me and that is the power of rapport it's the power of this podcast what you're doing you're allowing people to just be in their space and That's what I offer. And then when someone, someone will start in therapy with Topline, the presenting issue, we call it. And typically, you never end there, you know, where you'll end up, you know, that then starts you.

So sometimes what you come to therapy for isn't what you're coming. No, it's symptom and cause, yeah. It's like my dad always said to us when we were younger, rouse are never what they're about. No. I didn't know what that meant. And now I'm like, he was right. Exactly. And we have this with celebs go dating.

Let's say someone comes in saying they have, they're a cot. I'm a quote unquote. I'm a cold fish. I have commitment issues. You know, I just, there's just no one out there. I don't fancy everybody. You know, that's that. You know, you can't help me because quite honestly, you know, I don't want to.

Now, that for me is like, oh, it's like nectar. Let's dive in. I'm like a fly on shit because I'm like brilliant because that's the presenting issue. One massive brick wall. You know, I want to get behind that brick wall, but you don't get behind a brick wall just where I go, what's wrong with you then, you know, or flinging opinion. Ask not tell.

That's every good therapist base level of approach, in my opinion. And it's the training that I've had. Unconditional positive regard and ask not tell. To get to the source, to get to the trigger. And that's where the presenting issue is, I'm cold, I'm this, I'm a fierce bitch, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then you start to unpack and you start to peel back layers and you start to uncover trauma, potentially, abandonment issues. And it can be as simple as one.

And this is why therapy is so fascinating because sometimes the first, second, third therapist won't actually get to this point, not because they're a terrible therapist necessarily. Just haven't got to that point. Because how someone presents now with a challenge, whether it's depression, anxiety, whatever it may be, commitment issues,

it can all hinge on one seemingly very insignificant moment or one tiny little trigger, one thing that's been said to you, one scene that you've just seen, and somewhere inside you subconsciously, you've buried it and gone, now, I ain't having that. And your protective instinct kicks in every time and going, now, something tells me, that's not something. Until you have to go back and you start to unpack. And that's just through questioning and listening and reflecting and going, could this be a route to go down? You explore it. That's not the right route. Okay, no, clearly that route isn't the route. Oh, that's interesting. They just mentioned that. Let's start to, you know,

pick and poke over here and see if that's a route there. And that is, the root of a therapist in that work, like I do on Slebsco dating, is exactly that. It's finding, it's finding the causes, treating the symptoms, but finding the cause. And then we can work on the whole person. So many people will say to me, oh, but why are you upset?

I thought therapy was meant to fix you. Like I was never going to cry or get upset again. And I remember saying, just explaining to someone once, I said, you know, I did it for 10 years and I, and it's the best money I've ever spent, quite honestly. And I think, I always say, I still start fires in the house, but I know where they started now. Correct.

I have a slightly clear idea of where they started. Beautifully described. Yeah. Therapy doesn't fix anyone, okay? I don't ever believe in cure. Because when you start talking in that language, people in general, people do, oh, you know, did you get cured from your anxiety disorder? No, I have generalized anxiety disorder, but I manage it well.

Because when we start talking about fixing and curing, There is suddenly a pressure and expectation that shit. What if I relapse? That's going to be seen as a backward step as failure. It's not. We are all consistently on a journey. And also, life doesn't just stop. We don't just get fixed, you know, because, oh, you know, you've gone through a terrible grieving process.

You don't go to therapy and then suddenly get fixed and go, all right, you know what? Today, I finally put all of my grief of my sister to bed. Tadda, I'm now going to skip off like Dorothy down the yellow brick road. You don't work like that. Do you know what? We carry it. I feel like I'm in the... the celebs go dating agency. I felt really privileged.

This is what it's like. You're so welcome. But it doesn't. What you become is you learn the tools. You have the tools and the skills and you have the self-awareness. And that is what it's all about. I know now I manage my anxiety disorder well because I know my trick. As you just said, the little fires. You get the little, you get the physical symptoms. Oh, my sleep's starting to be affected. I'm starting to get that. I know my physical symptoms when my anxiety is starting to round. And this happened to you, we should say that, you got this sort of, it's called generalised anxiety disorder, isn't it? And this was when you were presenting in your 20s, was that when you first got a sense of this was something? Yeah, and interestingly, through therapy, I realised that I thought this was the first time I had it, but actually through therapy, I realised absolutely no, you know, I'd been experiencing panic attacks on and off as I was a child, actually.

But very long story short, I did regressional hypnosis. which I'm a big fan of. It's great for change work. And actually the first panic attack I identified through regressional hypnosis was when I was eight in a swimming pool and I got trapped under a mat, you know, those floaty mat things when you're a kid

and I got trapped underneath that. I remember, and it was fascinating process. And I came out from under the mat and the swimming teacher at the time thought I was messing about and bolloped me for it. So it was like a double whammy. Like not only I had been trapped, I couldn't get out,

which is why I do have issues with cleithrophobia. It's the fear of being trapped still. But I recognise that and I manage that and I go through strategies to do it because don't avoid the thing. If you avoid the thing, your phobia takes hold. But it was also the double whammy of the teacher then telling me off, thinking I'd done something wrong, that also kicked in that absolute feeling of despair and that was so unfair.

And that sort of justice sensitivity. Exactly, which is where I still am now as a grown up. I have that as well. To a degree where it's almost, I have to say to, I say this to myself, I say, justice sensitivity, that's all this is. This is why you're getting in a state about this. Because justice is such a trigger for all of... I'm in a situation at the moment actually when something doesn't feel quite right. Right. And it's something I have to grapple with. But I've learned, again, articulate communication. Go to the source of that injustice if you can and articulate

in a way and ask yourself what is the outcome I need from this, you know, and go from there. I want to just go from how you ended up becoming, doing all the last, life coaching work and the therapy because that's such an interesting move to me. And obviously it felt like it was all meant because you've now ended up with Slebs Go Dating. All of those things come together so perfectly. How did you end up sort of going into that kind of training and that kind of, you know, therapy work? That was as a result of me having what I would call, you know, well it was. It was a mental breakdown in my mid-20s when I was doing kids telly.

And that was, as the result, I was in a psychologically abusive relationship. And that's what I didn't know at the time. Didn't know anything about it. I hadn't learned anything about that at all. And it was as a result of, that's what Breaking Mad actually in my book, I wrote that after that, basically, because then I had chronic panic attacks and anxiety. And fortunately, managed through therapy as well, got out of that relationship.

And was there a lot of, because I know with those sort of relationships as well, there's questioning of your reality and gaslighting and gaslight central, all of that, all of that. So again, I come at that from personal experience. You know, it's funny how these things teach you something in life, you know, and I probably, well, I made peace with that situation because it has, I wouldn't be the therapist I am now or have gone into what I've gone into if I hadn't experienced. don't get me wrong, I wish I hadn't experienced it, but I can absolutely see the value it has given me now.

And it was as a result of that, and I had, I went in, I had therapy, which I'd never had before, and then was told, you know, given the, given the breakdown of why, you know, that I wasn't insane, which is how it felt, you know, and that there was a reason for it, you know, I was emotionally burnt out, you know, this, at Rev. You know, I'd had my self-esteem challenged and stripped, away and then I was like gosh this is brilliant and the therapy really helped me and I remember going back to work and I felt so empowered and I was able to articulate myself I stopped people pleasing I was a massive people pleaser so I just made all these changes about just self-awareness really so it's kind of addressed really bad habits that I didn't know I had until that had happened

to me and I was like this therapy coaching malag is a bit good in it so I started to learn about it and then I learned about it more and I was like this is brilliant you know I've always been a people person. I was like, I want to, I want to do this. I want to learn this properly, like, train for this. Not ever to be on the telly or there wasn't, I'm not that clever for it to be a massive game plan. It was always my thing that I wanted to do away from telly because telly was, you know,

I was beholden to get a job or not get a job, you know. So it was kind of my thing. So all intentions of just, yeah, when telly packs up, you know, I'll do that. And that's really how it's not. I'm so grateful you did. With celebs go dating, I mean, I'm almost as fascinated, well, as fascinated by the experts as I am with the celebs who come on it. And I came for Rob Beckett because he's a friend of mine who's done this podcast. Oh, I love Rob.

And I stay for you guys. Thank you. And I love, I mean, your relationship with Paul, I'm obsessed with that. Paul C. Bronson, the God. Me too. I just literally was on the phone to him five minutes for I started this podcast. Tell me what he's like on the phone. You're just Paul, isn't he?

Do you know what makes me laugh about? Everyone loves our friendship. Yeah, I do. Not as much as we love our friendship because we're friends and brother-sister. And I'm so, he's the best thing that ever came out of that show for me, you know, because, you know, I have got a best mate and a brother in another brother and Paul. When you get strict though with them, I mean, sometimes with the celebs, you two can be hardcore.

Yes. And when Paul starts getting very strict, that's not okay. What you did? Guys, it's not okay. That's not okay. This is my best, poor impression. You know, here's the thing. That's what he says.

Here's the thing. You know, I love Pete. He is, he's an absolute babe. He is my sound, that's why I called him. I had a soundboard in something this morning. I trust him. He trusts me.

We have each other's back. And you're currently, we should say, we're on series, I want to say, it's not 14. 14. Yeah, 14. Tell him a diehard fan. I love it.

Be a die half a fan. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I've got my favourite series. Lottie Moss is in my top three.

I know she didn't find love, but I did find Feltzzi very entertaining to watch. Her journey was fascinating. Because actually you can sometimes learn from people on that show. You'll look at it. And what I think is so interesting for the audience is hearing your feedback, you'll think, oh, maybe I'm like that. Or maybe that person's a bit like that.

That's the take home. That's why I love it with the Celence, because they really, I mean, we can give a toss, whether they're celebrity or not. I don't care how many followers or blue ticks they've got. I don't mean that in a rude way, in the sense that they probably don't care how many I've got. They're just a human being.

You know, we all come into this world. We all come out of it, you know, and that really is it. And everyone fascinates me. Celebrities, and I think more and more, this particular cohort we've got on this series. It's Kerry Ketona, who I love. I love Kerry.

But I feel, this is my theory. You don't have to say anything. I feel Kerry, she comes across is so lovely and she has such a good heart but I get the impression she's been used to performing

and making the energy and the atmosphere happy and fun for everyone for a long time. Girl band history and I feel I'm waiting for you to have that breakthrough

with the experts where you're allowed to just be you. That's my theory. I'd say you could be a very, very good dating agent if you watch the rest of the series let's just say

I don't think you'll be disappointed and without sounding you know I mean we've known Kerry a long time and you know it's hard to blow one's own trumpet but we knew that we'd get through to her what we needed to and we did do you think that can you sense when some people are coming on I know you can't mention names but there must be an element of some people coming on where and I'm thinking more of the seasoned reality show people where there's a little bit more of an element of going into it for clout and likes possibly and then of course they end up finding themselves in quite a sort of challenging experiment in terms of their emotions and they're like

oh I'm actually thinking things and they're uncovering things is that something you've experienced and how do you navigate that yeah pretty much that all the time it's and I we love it actually we've been doing this such a long time now that you do get bit cookie cutter with some people, particularly the reality stars, that, not all of them, but the ones that perhaps think, yeah, you know what, this is a nice little telly show to do, ticks the box, gives me some dosh, gives me some nice headlines, I'm going to pop on in, have a nice new dates. Fert with Tom.

Exactly, flirt with Tom. Mention door knobs. Exactly, you know, and then, you know, and then go again. And it's always a really interesting point when it happens every single time. without fail, they get halfway through the process, maybe two or three sessions in and they go, oh, this is real, isn't it? Like, yep, you're not actors, are you? Nope. You don't have a script, do you? No, we don't. Welcome to our actual therapy rooms, which we have exactly the same outside of here as we do here. And it's a lovely moment because in those moments, they pivot. They either

fully go, okay, I'm actually here for a different reason than perhaps I signed up for. I'm going to lean into this help. And I would say, take the free therapy boat. you know, you've got thousands of pounds worth of coaching. Or they don't. They stick to plan A. Some of them do you think do do that. Yeah, they just, they come out of that, they go into the process thinking,

this is a good thing to do for my career and perhaps they leave. Still like that. Possibly for some of them. Some do more than others, I think. But equally, I don't judge. I mean, but genuinely, I'm like, whatever your reasons for coming in,

take, you will get more from us the more you give us. You don't want to give us much? Okay, we'll, we'll, you know, it's like a mirror. The more you get, like, you'll see this series, John Lee in particular. Oh, Magpie. Oh, Magpie. John Lee, you know, John Lee came in so geared up for the process. And Kerry, actually.

This is from S Club 7. Oh, John from S Club 7, yeah. So, like, I am here to learn. I am here to look at my life, my relationship history, and I'm here to, do things differently. Brilliant. Bring it on. And let's just say you see the results for the people that really do

lean into the process. And it's difficult for some of them I imagine because obviously you know you hear some celebrities on and they're so for example Lottie Moss, Kate Moss's sister was on and she's having to talk very honestly about her sister and say well that's Kate Moss or Helen Flanagan

will have to talk about her high profile relationship and I've noticed you have to deal with that quite sensitive because you're like, well, we have to explain, this is a show, and we have to say, well, that was the boxer, you know, David Hose that you went out with. And I wonder, is that something which, did they, is that discussed beforehand in terms of their boundaries over privacy and what they will and won't talk about? Because you're in a therapeutic situation, but there's also cameras, is what I'm saying.

Of course, of course. It's a very, very delicate balance between ourselves and the producers. And we will always place duty of care and sensitive information above anything else. So if anything is disclosed in a session with us and a celebrity feels uncomfortable about that with hindsight, then we will always absolutely take their thoughts into consideration and make sure that nothing is included. They don't feel comfortable with. And they do. Sometimes when they come in, and I think they look, you can tell. There are moments when I think, oh, they genuinely, they weren't expecting this, you guys to come at them with this or uncover this particular part of... Because that's what it's like therapy. It is constantly surprising.

And sometimes it's only after you leave. You know, I always used to say, the sessions I learnt the most from were the ones where I would leave feeling slightly irritated. Is that so weird? No, that's exactly it. It's exactly it because you're starting to... when we feel uncomfortable, that's when the change work can happen. Because we're starting to think about how can I do something differently? Or that's a really good place to be. But actually equally, and often when we do this,

and this is why it is important that aftercare, and we do absolutely have that on the show as well. So we always make sure we check in with our celebs. To say that, you know, after a session, you're often, you know, we open up Pandora's box. So to then leave somebody walking out for therapy room, a coaching room, you know, with all of those thoughts, feelings, swelling around, you know, it can be a dangerous place. So, you know, we always make sure that,

you know, we follow up on that, we check in, and if something feels uncomfortable, they can come and talk to us more about that, you know, but it's, yeah, therapy is an interesting place because you never know what's going to happen. I have therapy, I have to have therapy, and I bloody love it. I never know until I get into therapy what I'm going to say. I've got no idea what I'm going to say. And then I always have a revelation. Come on, let's walk you back. Thank you, my love. So please don't worry about walking No, we like that. And also, come here, Ray. Might have to stop at this building, though, to go for a wee. So maybe we'll, we'll cut it there.

Are you going to wee in public? No. Oh, I thought you meant by the tree. Oh, no, I mean, I would. No, but you've told me already how open you are about nudity. Yeah, I'd probably get, yeah, I mean, I think urinating is probably a line, but never say never, to be honest, Emily. You said, and that was really lovely what you said, you said, thank you for making me cry. And I meant it. It's really empowering to be able to do that.

I wonder, you said then afterwards you said you don't cry that often. Oh, that, well, like that. I cry like that, as in little things, moments touch me. And then I get, I well up and I love it. I think it's really special when you have those moments and you can, you know, reflect on them really. I think life's so busy. you know I don't have a lot of time to sit and think about things if I'm perfectly honest with you you know I've just come off a holiday with my kids and you know I haven't had genuinely haven't had more than 30 seconds peace even my agent was laughing the other day because I was saying about how I just don't get any peace and then I was trying to send her a voice note on something and the kids interrupted about five times she was like you weren't joking I wasn't joking I said I don't get any peace so actually when I'm allowed when I'm allowed when I have these spaces to just sit chat, reflect, and these are lovely topics to be talking about.

Yeah, I let myself get in there. It's like a therapist. You've been my therapist today, so thank you. Oh, that's so lovely. I appreciated it. Can I ask you a question? Do you think you can tell if someone's had therapy? Yes.

Yes. How? They love a lot of self-reflection. Right. The way they hold themselves, the way they can answer questions, the way their outlook is on life. I think there's a lot of clues, a lot of cues that somebody has done the work.

And, funny enough, we had on Slebs go dating this series and to their own admission, John Lee from S Club and Kerry, you know, they have done the work on themselves. And you could instantly tell that they were so many more steps ahead of somebody who has never accessed any form of, of therapeutic help or self-help or anything like that. And yeah, I think everyone should have therapy.

I think it's really it's bare bones. It's space. It's space to just think and to reflect on you, your choices, your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviours. And it's always amazing and cathartic is what comes up from that space. That's why I'm fiercely proud of being able to give that space in a non-judgment way. And like I said, when we started this podcast, you know, I think there's such an expectation nowadays,

particularly in the world of tele and broadcasting and podcasting as well, that everyone needs to have a big opinion on everything. You know what? Why? Why? Why does everyone need to have an opinion and force it down your throat? Why can't some people just sit and reflect and listen? I think we learn so much more by listening than by, by,

speaking and yelling it down someone's throat. I would so agree with that. I've so loved my little morning with you, Anna. Me too, genuinely. Have you? Have you? Have you? I really, really enjoyed it.

Thank you for asking me. Thank you for coming here to Sunny Hartford and raise an absolute joy. Look at him, Anna. He's my little friend. Oh, listen, I... He's so loyal. I'm so loyal.

Dogs, pets, they're everything. I have my dog cat, Teddy. who is the apple of my eye. He's always there waiting for me every day. He's always lying on my pillow waiting for me to, at bedtime. And they bring so much love, unconditional love, don't they? Yeah. I think they do, actually.

And also, I think they're good behavioural monitors as well. Oh, yeah. In the way that I'm sure kids are, that... I have to sort of sometimes realize if I was going to snap or something. Ray will look at me with such confusion. Like, what? Have I done something to upset you? And it makes you realize, you know, kids do the same as well.

Oh, yeah. Absorbing anger. So they're good anger management. They really are. There's a lot of research in, you know, just stroking a dog, stroking a pet. It just helps calm your nervous. helps regulate you, it just helps alleviate stress, bring down anxiety. Do you know who else does that?

Who? You? Yeah. Oh, really? Really? I feel really calm and happy from spending time with you. Oh, what a compliment. It gives me, I leave with a happy heart.

Oh, well, me too. And do you know what? You've really, you've rebalanced mine, actually, because, you know, I'm also human, you know, and a few things have irked me over the last couple of days. Just life. Just life. You know. Work, boarding in your house, all this kind of stuff going on in my life at the moment.

And you have totally centred me. And so I thank you for that. And you know why that is? Well, not only are you wonderful, we're like-minded, but conversation, the importance of connection and communication. And when you have that opportunity just to talk, then you do find a lot of your worries and your tension just ebbs away. All of that's true, but you're forgetting the most important element. Right. We love you Anna.

I love you too. I'm going to let you go now because I'm going to have to try and blag my way into the loo in there. Do you know what? My car's literally there so I'm going to get the kids. I think the cloak of celebrity

will help you. That well, I don't know. I need away. Bye, Anna. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed and do join us next time

on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.