Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Anthony Kavanagh (Part One)

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

This week Emily and Ray head to Highbury Fields to meet the brilliant Anthony Kavanagh, who first found fame in the 90s as pop star Kavana, with hits like I Can Make You Feel Good and countless appearances on Top of the Pops.Anthony opens up about the reality behind that glossy pop image, sharing his story with remarkable honesty in his new memoir Pop Scars. In it, he reflects on the pressures of overnight fame, hiding his sexuality, addiction, and the chaotic fallout of being discarded by the music industry in his twenties.It’s a moving and darkly funny conversation with a hugely likeable guest who’s come through extraordinary challenges with warmth, wit and perspective, and who, most importantly, won Ray’s seal of approval.Check out Anthony's wonderful book here and make sure you follow him on InstagramFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was performing the dance mix. You always know when you have to do the dance mix, something's not quite working. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I popped over to Highbury Fields in North London to meet up with Anthony Kavana, who won legions of teenage fans in the 90s as pop star Kavana. So I was very familiar with Kavanaugh's hit songs like,

I Can Make You Feel Good, and his numerous appearances on top of the pops and in teen magazines, But what I didn't know, because no one knew at the time, was the pretty dark reality of his life behind that glossy pop image. And it's something he's now written about with astonishing honesty in a new memoir called Pop Scars, where he talks about all the struggles that came with overnight fame, from having to hide his sexuality to alcohol and drug addiction, and the way his life spiraled into chaos after he was pretty much spat out by the music industry in his 20s. It's a genuinely brilliant book.

I've read it twice, by the way, partly because he's so unfailingly honest, but also because it's beautifully written in this darkly comic tone without a hint of self-pity. So I really do urge you to order a copy of Pop Scars now. Ray and I absolutely loved Anthony.

He's just such a sweet-natured and also hilariously funny man, who's been through a hell of a lot and he's obviously done so much work on himself to get to the place he's in today. And most importantly, Ray absolutely adored him, which as we all know, is the gold standard test for any human being. Really hope you enjoy our chat.

Here's Anthony and Ray Ray. Come on, Ray. Come on, there he is. Yeah, show Kavanaugh how you, Ray. There he is. Come on. Come on, Ray. I'm with Kavanaugh. I know him as Kavanaugh, of course,

because I adored him and still adore him. But he's also called Anthony Kavanaugh. Yes. And I was discussing with you and I arrived whether you had a preference. People often ask you that, don't they? And do you have a preference as to what you like to be called now? Because Kavanaugh was a name made up for you by your then manager, wasn't it? Yes, which is a hybrid. Is that the right word? Yeah. Of my last name. So my last name ends with G.H. Kavanaugh. And then the manager said, Anthony Kavanagh's too long winded for a pop star. First of all, you're going to be solo, you're not going to be in a boy boat. So let's drop the GH and just call you Kavanaugh. And he went, like Keanu. So I went, okay. I was hoping he was going to say like Elvis or Madonna.

Look at this one. Is that a corgi? Oh, is that a corgi? It looks a bit corgi-ish, doesn't it? Should we approach the corgi? What's the temperament of the carggy? Do you know? Do you know, that's a podcast.

what's the temperament of the corgi yeah come on corgi oh do you know what it is corgi come oh look how well he's very royal lucky he's so regal do you know we're just admiring your dog oh what kind of dog oh oh wow sheba innu are the most shiba innu see you let's enjoy to meet you come on ray the shimu innu's joining us come on shimu nice calf. It was lovely one. It was lovely wasn't it? I want to get back to your childhood. Yes. Because you, did you have a dog growing up? I know you had a cat. I only was allowed cats. My mum and dad weren't really dog people. My mum was

scared of dogs I think. She was a bit neurotic Rita, God bless her. And she used to always be scared of this Alsatian dog on the council estate when he was growing up. It used to always bark at her. So she got, I think she got from scared of dogs so I was allowed a cat I had two cats first one was Arnold and then he died and then I got Mickey the cat and it was you and your sister was actually 20 years older than you Angela was 20 years up 19 years yeah yeah how did that work out like that calf do you know what it worked out pretty well actually because we never lived together.

There was no sibling rivalry. And so her and her husband Clint, they were the cooler. I mean, I love my parents, but they were the cooler, older parents. I mean, younger parents. So Clint's a hairdresser. Angela was the reception on the salon,

so it was this place of glamour. I used to go as a kid and hang out and they got me into music and stuff. So I was always excited to be with them. They were my part-time parents, you know, so they'd come and take me away on trips and do stuff and take me to concerts and the cinema and then back at my mum and dance.

And was it a sort of, would you describe it as a typical, I suppose, working class, for one of a better word? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a place called Moston. which is harper hay. So he takes his time. Oh yeah, he takes his time. So yeah, you were saying about your background,

so growing up in Moston, Yes. Did you have to sort of learn how to take care of yourself, if you like, when you went out at night? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I didn't really go out at night. I spent a lot of time in my bedroom, you know, making tapes and off the radio

and playing my little keyboard and reading my pop magazines. That was kind of my... Well, as you know, in the book, I kind of talk about that with me and my friend Andrew. Like, we used to make tapes of neighbours. You know, we play characters in neighbours. You know, the TV show Neighbours? And weirdly, I was always the battle axe,

and he was always the soft one. Were you like Mrs Mangal? I was Mrs. Mangal and he was Helen Daniels. Hello Home James. Yeah, forgot about that. I used to like neighbours the shitty like, hello Lesser's. Like that terrible restaurant. You're bringing back so many memories.

Was it a joyful household? Was it a fun household? Was there anything you had to navigate? I suppose up until I was there. say a teenager it was a very um cozy bubble you know i my mum was a fortune teller she read the tea leaves rita and she was well known in the area she'd charge five pound a cup and she'd have to have her she didn't none of my parents didn't drive they got buses everywhere and and the women would call to pick her up and there'd usually be a party of five local women and I'd

go with her sometimes because I was no zen I loved being with my mum so I'd sit in the living room with whoever the other kids was of the parent and I'd see these women come out one at a time from the kitchen where my mum would be sat and they'd come out and they'd be going can't believe what that Rita's just told me she was right about him I knew it and then you You'd see him on Mostyn Lane where he lived a few weeks after and they'd literally shout across the street. Rita, he was right. He was seeing someone. Yeah, it was very Coronation Street and a bit of the Royal Family thrown in.

Yeah. And what did your dad do, Cav? Well, by the time I was born, they were in the mid-40s. I think my mum had been working at a chemist. My dad was a builder, but he damaged his back. So he was almost. the the the not the housewife what do you call it he was like the my mum was the one do you know he was my dad was the homemaker I used to call himself the head cook

and bottle washer he did every he did all the cooking he used to iron he used to do my mum wasn't the most what's that word when when someone isn't no no no she was very maternal when they don't do as much around the house domestication I was going to say lazy. I mean lazy could be a word. I think my dad called her that a few times. But, I mean, let's call a spade a swade. I'm so sorry, Rita.

Rita. You know, my mother was the go-getter. She worked on a psychic phone line at one point. She was like Mystic Meg, Rita. She was Mystic Meg. Yeah. So, you've obviously been a bit of a psychic phone line at one point. You've obviously, we've mentioned this brilliant book you've written, Pop Scars.

Thank you. Which, and when I say it's brilliant, it's not just brilliant because it's a fascinating story, let's be honest. You've had a very interesting life, lots of ups and downs. Yeah. And that's entertaining, but one of the better word. But what I really loved about this book is how beautifully you write. Thank you. And I know you put the work in.

I did. I mean I had the idea a long time ago but obviously as we know in the book and quite publicly I was in and out of addiction for a long time and writing and that don't really go hand in hand not for me anyway you know I'd like to think of myself as some Charles Bukowski you can you know drink bottles of wine and get ten chapters done but that wasn't the case for me so when I got sober I did a writing course and I didn't because I just wanted to know how I could structure it because I was right had these scenes but I kept thinking well I'm not

it can't be an autobiography because I didn't feel worthy enough to do that but I know that anyone can write a memoir a memoir can be about I've read memoirs from people that I didn't know who they were yeah well a memoir I wrote a memoir and I was told which was very helpful that it's kind of, you know, you can almost see an autobiography as this is what happened. Yes. And a memoir is, this is why I think it happened. Yes.

You know? Right. I suppose it's a bit more reflective, isn't it? Yeah. And you're kind of saying to the reader, this is my interpretation of it. Right. I remember someone saying to me when I wrote my memoir, you know, it's a well-meaning person who didn't really understand.

I know those. Yes. I've come across a few of those. And she said, I don't understand. There were lots of conversations you remembered from when you were a child. How come you remembered word for word? And I said, the thing about memoir is that you're saying, this is my perception of it.

This is my memory of it. And there's a sort of, but I think that's an important thing for people to understand. It's that you're not saying this is the actual, this is the truth. This is what happened. You're saying, yeah, this is how I remember it. As the Queen said, recollections may differ. There you go.

Well, in your memoir, you do something... Pop Scars. Yeah, I've been told I need to mention the book title. Oh, we'll be mentioning it all over the place. Because I don't mention it. Well, in Pop Scars, you do something... There's a brilliant conceit at the top. Oh, yeah.

You say, and it sets up that this is going to be a very honest book, what you say right at the top is... My mum was born in blah blah, blah, my dad was born, and then you say, stop. You don't want to hear any of that. Right. I know you want to get to the juicy bits. And so let's get into this. Let's get into it.

And you do. Go on. No, no, just while I remember, that's because I get bored of, I'm sorry, but me personally, I do get bored when it starts with childhood stuff in a book. I love biographies, I love memoirs. But when they start. with you know I was born in so and so and in the war and then so, anti so and so and so came through the war with husband. I kind, my brain just goes to sleep. So when they told me that

you probably need to write an introduction as well, because obviously I opened it with that prologue, that, that shocking, which we don't give any spoilers, but you know where I wake up and I'm in Hollywood, whatever. You've reached rock bottom. I'd reached one of my rock bottoms, yeah, in a far off place and with a stranger in the house and yeah so when this so because people said just keep writing as you write like you talk and think oh was that a good thing or a bad thing I don't know so it was just a I just wrote it and and then I sent it you know sometimes you just press send I think this they're gonna think this is not right it's not articulate enough but it was just if it was

almost like my undiagnosed ADHD just went, okay, stop, enough of this. Yeah. Get me to where it really starts. Because I wanted to write something that I wanted to read myself. Yeah. And you know yourself as a writer, it's a lot of work, isn't it? It's one thing saying, oh, I'm going to do a book, and then you get in the approval to do it,

and then it's like, oh wow, like, I've got to do at least 80,000. Well, do you know, one of my best mates. When I said I'm really struggling with this book and she said, I hate writing, she said, no one likes writing, everyone likes having written. Right, there you go. That's so good to know, isn't it? Have that on your wall, have. Yeah.

And as someone that's written songs over the years, it's, you know, it's kind of, some magic happens when you go in the studio or you sit at the piano, whatever, you have nothing. And then the end of the day, you have something. And I was starting to get that with the writing thing. It just meant, it is quite a lone. some, only you can do it, you know. Yeah, it sort of starts with you as a teenager. Yes. 16 year old Cav who's obsessed with music and it seems like from quite an only age, you sort

of had this premonition that you were going to be famous. Yes. And you were going to be a pop star. Yes. It was not, well, it was, I suppose it was a premonition because I kept seeing myself on stage, almost like in a silhouette. And these lights flashing on and off. It wasn't a spotlight, it was just these lights flashing on and off. And then I was obsessed with smash hits.

It was just an escapism and I knew I could sing to a degree. I knew I was musical, so it seemed like I just loved those magazines and it's just a feeling that I had. And do you manifest? Was there such thing as manifesting? I mean, who knows? But I knew, as I say in the book, I'm going to be a pop star and I'm going to walk through a brick wall to make it happen. I had no, there was no other option. There was no other, you know, like we go to school and we meet the careers advisor and they say,

what do you want to do? I literally couldn't think of anything else. And that wasn't me being spoiled brat. I just, I got a you in maths, which is, I think, unclassified. I did do all right in drama and music, but I couldn't read music. So, and then it just happened, you know, it happened. And did you know you could always sing? Were you singing at home?

I was singing at home, not like around the house, like la la, la. You know, I wasn't that kind of a singer, but I was, I always felt, I loved, I was brought up on the greats, you know, my dad would always play Elvis, Frank Sinatra, and then my sister was into like Roxy Music and David Bowie and stuff, Stevie Wonder, so I was, I was around, my dad went everywhere with his little radio, so music was always in the house, it was always around, and then once I got a keyboard, and I realised that I could, hear a song on the radio and immediately be able to copy it.

Yeah. You know, but then my mum sent me for the piano lessons and that was a disaster because it was too mathematical. So, and when people keep telling you you're good, you're good, you must, so you start to believe it and do it. And so you ended up, how your particular break happened was that you go to this club. Yes. in Manchester. Yep. And you sort of bled your way in because it was a gay club, wasn't it?

It was. Me and my best friend, Andrew, my childhood friend and my cousin, Sean, we decided we were going to go to a nightclub. Should we sit down, Cav for a bit? Let's give ourselves a little break. We deserve it. Of course we do.

Come on, Ray. Follow Cam. Come on, Ray. So I was working at McDonald's part-time and I'd just left school. I'd left school at 16 and I was trying to figure out how I'm going to get into this music world. How is it, you know, I think I'd sent a letter to PWL

at one point, a few years before, but he said I was a bit too young. Oh, this is Scott Aiken Waterman. Yeah, I got a letter back from Pete Waterman in the Post. He was so loved, very kind, actually. Anyway, I was working at McDonald's, and after one of the shifts, me and my cousin and my best friend said let's go to a nightclub let's try and get in a night club so we tried to get

into and they said no basically to you and then the last chance saloon was the one where I it was a gay club and it was called Paradise Factory and you weren't out to your friends no I wasn't out to anyone were you I know this is a weird question but were you out to yourself I knew myself yeah I knew at that point but it was something that was kept I mean it was 1994 at this point. So I had no, you know, experience of that at all. And I think maybe part of me still wondered if it would always be hidden and I would just, you know, because I loved girls. I loved, I had a lot of female friends and, you know, but I just, I knew, I did know that.

And that's where I met the manager, who ended up signing me and then that's how it all took off literally. I mean it was McDonald's to then right you're gonna let's bring in your demo tape did all that and well he he hired you as a sort of office junior essentially to get to know the business

was the reason given for that. Yeah I mean that's right but it was always with the to be a pot you know I want you to start come to the office see how it all works and in the meantime time we'll get you writing songs so you'll be preparing to be a pop star but I want you in

this office which was a big management company music and so I was around it and I got to see how it all worked that must have been very life-changing because as you write you know it was pretty sudden it was like something out of a film because he suddenly says to you right it feels like it all happened so quickly cab it was like yeah we need to get you a new house you're a pop star if you're going to make your change as your name actually in the first meeting. Right. If you're going to be a pop star, you can't continue living in a council house. Council house on a rough estate, you know.

So you're going to have to buy a house. Here's 50 grand or whatever. Here's 50 grand, which I'm going to loan you. You'll pay me back once we get the record deal. Now once that was suggested, it's like, oh, this guy isn't messing about. Like, this is actually happening. But of course, there was two other people to think about, which was my 60-odd-year-old parents. Yeah.

at that point. Yeah, they were probably late 50, 60s. And they'd lived in council houses all the lives. So suddenly I'm moving the three of us into this, you know, little Brookside, close style, nice little, you know, cul-de-sac. Without their community. Without their real community, which was, you know, they loved, but I could see it was a big change, you know.

And that's, but it went, I mean, I thought it was taking way too long. to become a pop star because I kept thinking, why is it not happening, why is it not happening, how much long? And then suddenly he said, look, just be glad of this time because once it starts, your feet won't touch the ground. And my God, was he right? I do get the sense though that this is pretty life-changing what happened to you and you're young when this happens. So your life is being changed, you're being uprooted from where you live and where you've grown up. and it kind of feels like you would need your hand held and to be guided quite a lot through that. So in those early days, do you feel you got support?

Probably not as much support as I'd like to think would be offered these days. It was a complex relationship with the manager. you know when somebody and you know as I mentioned in the book I'd had it in my head that I was going to somehow meet this guy this this this this powerful pop manager based in Manchester and then I did by complete coincidence or chance or whatever you want to call it I wasn't meant to go to those two first night clubs that I wouldn't let us in it was the third one and then he was, you know. And so I, so, you know, he was someone that I idolized. As I write in the book,

I had feelings for. I was a closeted young gay teenager at that point and he had a lot of power and he was changing my life. He was changing my name, my identity. He was doing everything for me and buying, you know, buying houses that I could move, move my parents into and steering my career. So, um, I didn't know any different and I was so grateful. My God, right? This was all happening. This was all happening for me.

This was your dream? This was my dream coming true. Yeah. And you became, it was kind of, I feel like about three songs in that things really took off for you. Yes. And that was you did this cover.

Yep. Of I can make you feel good. Yep. I'm old enough to remember the original. Yeah. But I preferred yours. Thank you. I mean, the funny thing is,

the amount of people that leave me voice notes the song, your songs playing in Astor or wherever. And the minute I can hear the first word, I think it's the Shannamara version. But I have to go along with it. I'm like, oh, thanks. But anyway, it's fine because we kept it very to the original. And it's a great song, but that became huge for you. That was the jumping off point.

The first two kind of didn't really, they made a little mark, but not that we needed a hit. Yeah. And you got one? Yeah, got one. And it feels like that suddenly. propelled you into bona fide sort of pop star status smash its covers that's when you're getting your covers you get in top of the pop you're getting funny nicknames Kavana QT yeah you're getting the little stickers made with your face on you get in the

posters then you're getting the you're getting more TV shows you're you know you're starting to get higher on the bill on certain tours stuff like that so that's when and you're meeting the spice girls who you've assigned with Virgin they're your label makes. They were, yeah. They sort of, I feel like they started out around the same time as you. Yeah, they did. It's funny because the book, when I first started writing the book and this sounds really wacky, I did act, I called it Act 1, Act 2 and Act 3, right? So Act 1 is very much the pop explosion world, the behind the scenes, the CCTV camera of what it would be like be on the other side, right, of someone going through it. And then, as we know, it changes. And then, as we know,

it changes and then we have the aftermath of fame which is when for me I think people are really connecting more to it and actually I enjoyed writing more to be honest because it's so raw but it's interesting how I suppose what I took from reading about your early years is how fast this all happened it's a machine isn't it and that suddenly you're this kid you're still a teenager at this point and you're at the Britsa Awards and you find yourself being plonked in a hotel room On your own, appreciate it. On your own, with a bottle of champagne from the Wreford Company. Yeah.

Saying enjoy. Yeah. Fill your boots. Don't drink too much, but enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, because famously, teenagers are great at self-control. Yeah, absolutely. You know, especially when you're...

Give a child the bottle of champagne. And absolutely, they will absolutely not drink too much. But when it says, you know, with compliments of Virgin Records, you're like, go on with an ice bucket. I'll just have a little bit. But already what I found quite heartbreaking cab is even then you were starting to sort of, I suppose, understand those hacks of an addict that you were thinking the champagne's going to make my breath smell. I'm going to raid the mini bar and have vodka.

Vodka, I've heard so and so, you know, I heard my mum say so-and-so, you can't smell it on his breath, uncle so-and-so, because he drinks vodka. You know, these little things, I mean, we have hacks now like Co. showers and to help with our mental health. There was all those little hacks and also I didn't realize it at the time but it gave me so much the the alcohol it lit me up. It gave it it had a chemical reaction to me than the normal drinker even at 16. You know it filled this void that I didn't realize it was there that just gave me this extra boost this extra confidence this extra everything really but of course

slowly over time those things change but yeah and I think also not being in a band maybe probably allowed me to experiment with things more because there wasn't any bandmates to answer to yeah and I wonder you know it's funny one of the things you write about which I found really touching was when you're on tour with Boyzone and you get to know them really well and they all come across as such lovely guys and having that sort of unity of looking after each other I suppose you know and I wonder if yeah maybe things would have been different I'm not saying obviously you understand as an addict that you're responsible for yourself and accountable for yourself having said that how weird

to be the only person going through that experience and life change yeah and you know I've said it quite a lot I didn't want this to be a pity party. It's not at all. I mean, there's a lot of humour in it, I hope, you know, seems to people are connecting to that kind of dark humour, that gallows humour that runs throughout it. Like you say, we are responsible for our own actions, but when you're in your teens, it's a little bit,

you can't be as responsible as you are in an adult. But no, I suppose I was quite envious of those bands that I'd see. But, for example, Boy Zone, they were great because they just, I was part of the family on the tour, you know. So in one way I wanted to be on my own, but then I wanted that camaraderie too, but you can't have your cake and eat it. So I just... But it's really, you're so, you know, and when you write about Boy Zone, I love, you sort of mention of, you know, I'm going to call it just a A connection, a connection, yeah. A connection, yeah. And a role, it was a romance, a little romance for sure. And that was just amazing to meet someone just like me, a pop star that was also having to hide his sexuality.

It made me cry that bit in the book. Did it? Actually makes me cry thinking about it now. Just the two of you, it's just having to lead, having to live with that shame, that sense of it being, you know, and I get very sad when I think about how he was outed, you know, how awful he was treated. It probably would have happened to me had I not have moved away to America at that point, you know. I'm a bit emotional, I get sad. Do you know what I mean? I just think, it makes me very sad and it actually, I thought it was lovely that, thank God you have. had that time together, how lovely for him and how lovely for you. And you know, who comes out of that whole thing so in such a great way is Ronan Keating

that just like a grown up, like a big brother, you know, who was sort of didn't get into fear or didn't, but he obviously knew that you had disconnection and he just went, goodnight lads. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What a class act. Yeah. And that was very, very supportive. I, um, do you think Ronan, do you think they knew you were using? Because you'd started doing drugs at that point and you talk about having a nosebleed. Yeah. So Ronan, he was sort of had worked out. I got the impression that you were doing drugs at the time. I don't know if that's what he assumed, but I, you know, there was coke flying around. I never saw those guys do it, but, you know, there was stuff flying around. The music business, you know, journalists were on the

tour, there was stage, you know, crew, whatever. And I had a little bit from in my pocket, you know, and I went and did some in the bathroom. It was the dumb thing, you know, like you do a do a show, you have a few drinks. I'm following what the adults do because a lot of my friends were adults, you know, much older than me because of who I mixed to. I didn't mix with, I wasn't in the band, so I'd hang out with the journalists or the the stylist or the photographers or whatever. And I'd done some in the toilet and basically my nose

had started bleeding and I wasn't unaware of it and I sat down and Rona said, you're bleeding, calf. He didn't say your nose is bleeding, he said, you're bleeding. And I ran into the toilet as I described it in the book in absolute panic and yeah, it was. And when I went and sat back down, I just said, oh I bit my lip, which of course was made up. You don't, you know, the blood wasn't where the lip was.

But yeah, there was all those little bits where I was getting, the little consequences were appearing, but I would brush it under the carpet and just get on with it because I was a lot younger. And how would you deal with, presumably when around that time, you were being asked all the time by journalists, got any special ladies in your life? Are you dating, fans asking you out,

you being linked with other pop stars or whatever? was it had you worked out in your head because you'd not discussed it with anyone in your management had you so no how what was your strategy or did you just not have what i just winged it i was never sat down and said you can't say this or i can't say that my manager was gay he knew i was gay um but i was never told what on what not to say but because i was a certain age looked a certain way and I almost changed persona a little bit once I became the pop star. I fell into this kind of cheeky chippy, northern. You know, I mean that was who I was as well, but I, that's what seemed to be working for me, so I put that mask on.

And so when the journalists would always lead, they would lead with the question, who are you, what good, do you fancy then in pop and then the minute I answered that Judy Gawland Liza Minnelli you know loved Barbara in the early days maybe she said yeah exactly I mean it's not too far off and um I um you know Bernadette Peters uh Anyone that sang some time, I really... Anyone who said, any woman who said a lot of tragedy and husband's in a lot.

Yeah, there you go, usually gay husbands. And so I would immediately, the minute I answered that the first time, the star was set. So when I did say, for example, I don't know, Louise or Madonna, there you go. So it was like, okay, and then it gets in the press, Kevin, a fancy's nice Melsie or Kavana fancies Louise. And are you thinking at that point few, I've won a bit more time? Yes. You know what I mean? I'm thinking few, but then I'm also terrified in case I meet again, Melsie, and God forbid she fancies me. And then, you know, how do we get around that? But I wondered, I also got the impression that you almost had made a decision that you were going to have to slightly sort of

desexualise yourself. Oh God, yeah. And park all of that aspect of your life. It was like you'd said, this is my Faustian bargain. If I, you know, Metastopolius has arrived and said, you can be a pop star.

The bad news is you don't get to have an intimate connection with anybody. No, absolutely. And that's what happened. That's exactly what happened. Now, looking back, could I have? Possibly. I mean, there was the odd little thing here and there. It was all very behind.

Sure. You know, we're talking. one night with somebody, but months and months and months, I mean, sometimes a year, and I'd see my peers, you know, getting up to all sorts and having, you know, and I looked back and think, you know, I was very virginal, really. I mean, nothing really happened with anyone. So yeah, but that was the, like you say, that was the bargain. It was like, okay, well, this is happening, so that can be pushed away because your dreams come true and you must. must be grateful. So when you've made that level of investment you've put you've sort of put

everything on red haven't you? Yes. It has to work for you. Yes. Your parents have been not rooted. You know you've invested so heavily in this dream and then as we know the music industry is famously hot. What is hot Moscow cold? Yeah. You were so hot. Yeah. And marketed in a way that was almost, you know, you're destined to have this really acute upward, you know, acceleration. It can only go down after that. Right. And rather than someone building their career slowly, you know, and so there's a really heartbreaking moment you described, where you go into a meeting at Virgin and the news isn't good.

Right. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.