Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Anthony Kavanagh (Part Two)

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

In part two of Emily and Ray’s walk with the brilliant Anthony Kavanagh, the 90s pop star continues to share his remarkable story with honesty, humour and heart.If you haven’t already, make sure to catch part one, and don’t miss Anthony’s powerful memoir Pop Scars: A Memoir on Fame, Addiction and the Dark Side of 90s Pop, a searingly honest and beautifully written reflection on life behind the spotlight.Check out Anthony's wonderful book here and make sure you follow him on InstagramFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of Walking the Dog with the wonderful Anthony Kavanaugh. Do go back and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already and do order a copy of his brilliant memoir, Pop Scars, a memoir on fame, addiction and the dark side of 90s pop, because it's such a searingly honest and beautifully written book. Also, do give us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Anthony and Ray Ray. So you're going into this meeting at Virgin and, I assume you have some sort of a premonition

that maybe it's not going to be good news or did you think oh they just want to meet with me? I remember I think I was proactive in the meeting actually I think I was the one that actually because they kept shipping me out to Asia where it was just wild I mean it was like I felt like

what is Elvis Presley out there I mean it was not just saying it I mean, it was nuts. And I noticed a lot of people in the charts are American and me. And that's what kept planting the seed. Maybe I should go to the States. So I wanted to know what was happening, praying in my heart that they were going to say,

yep, you know, let's do this next record or whatever they did. And it was like walking to the guillotine because I had this idea. I remember walking through Virgin and there was a bit of a strange atmosphere. And yeah. And so I was 21. And they were basically, he basically told me in known certain terms that, you know, it was, they were dropping me. Yeah. And, yeah, that was a lot to deal with on your own, I think, because that wasn't how it was meant to go.

Yeah. And a lot of the team had, you know, it's like you have an A&R person, you have this or that, they'd all gone. Because the Spice Girls had become so huge in the States. all gone over there and I remember going to I remember trying to get a meeting with my possible new A&R man before this before they dropped me and he was like I had a parwell hair cut and I think the verve were big at the time and he just looked at me and he was just like Scottish guy won't do his accent but he was more or less saying I can so imagine him with that cross-body record bag yeah yeah and he was more or less looked at me like you know piece of shot on his shoes I was in

to say there's no way, you know, where I don't, you're not doing another record with me. So it was a lot. Also, music had changed. Music had changed. It had started. It was all that indie stuff had, you know, the indie sort of stuff. Indy, then there was a lot of girl bands coming out after the Spice Girls. So I didn't really have a place.

And there's only so much they invest that they want to get back. I mean, really in hindsight, we probably didn't need to make the album in a villa in Italy. I didn't realize, but it was the producers that they wanted to make it now. as well that you weren't back then you weren't educated about money I yeah I turned I wasn't I didn't want to know but I couldn't understand it I was not I had an accountant that's mentioned in the book Sandra will call her who who liked to cocktail she liked to cocktail as did I you know and that and you know you're going for these wine-fueled lunches you know it's like and

and you're signing off checks for this, that and the other, I'm not, I don't, I have no idea if she ripped me off financially, but I do know that the advice could have been slightly different looking back now. But you just think it's going to last forever, don't you? You know, I mean, I was with Coots Bank, you know, like that's where the Queen banks. And, well, you know, it's an interesting thing that Gary's economics, that guy really like, you know, he does a lot of stuff about education, on money and how he said the thing is what often happens he said is that people born into wealth

often when they make money they've been taught right the first thing you do is invest it never spend it i did not know any of that you said but when people who've been raised working class make money the first thing they do is spend it yeah they spend it i mean i did buy that i did but i ended up buying two houses i bought the first little one and then we moved out into a bigger one so but because nobody told me that it might not be the best idea to be You know, I'm moving to America and renting a place in L.A. I'm paying your parents' mortgage for eight. Nobody really advised me what to do.

So I just, such a people, please. I'm not going to move too elderly parents. So I just, I kind of, and because I had this ambition, and it had happened the first time, so it's surely going to happen for me in America, which is when I moved there, it gives me some great stories, obviously. And when you move to America, there's a really, interesting thing you mentioned where you're with you're about to do a TV show

something like SMTV in America I wouldn't know this was in the UK in the UK yeah all you left to go to America that's right and you're doing something like SMTV TV TV UK yes I'm sorry see the UK and you just get this sense and we all know it it's a bit like when it's an energy when you feel you've gone cold yeah you just feel it around you do and it's horrible it's not when someone's going to break up with you and things are a bit off you're like it i can feel this energy that's what it felt you i'm glad you picked up on that because that's how i wanted to come across because that's how it felt yeah you know i was like oh my time my number's up here but i've got to keep plugging along and keep putting on the show how did you

you just felt from maybe where you're placed in the show how the amount of fans outside yeah i think it was well i'm chatting to one of the girls from steps aren't elisa scotly who's lovely by the way, but I was kind of telling them my slightly delusional plans of moving to, I might move to America and, you know, and in other words, I know they, they had a song called Better Best Forgotten. Oh, they had a song. And mine was, I was performing the dance mix. You always know when you have to do the dance mix, something's not quite working. So Lisa Scott Lee, what did she say? Well, we were chatting, you know, you just have these memories. And shit, the poor girl didn't even have a clue that she was breaking, you know, killing me softly with her words.

But I just said something, you know, my single was like number 26 or something. And I was, how I ended up on CDUK at that number, I've no idea. But they let me perform this song. It was a ballad, but they let me perform the dance mix, which was not, you know, I wasn't in the happy, clappiest mood to perform the dance song with a hangover at number 26 with Steps' Better Best Forgotten, which is more apt for my title of the song. judging by the audience face. They were like number five or something.

And I just remember talking to Lisa through the, Luce Scott Lee through the mirror. And I said, oh, well, you know, I've just been to Asia. I'm really big in Asia. And she's kind of looking at me. And I said, you know, and there's lots of American artists out there. I'm thinking of moving to America, you know.

Because I'd been out there and I had dreams of making it big. And she just looked at me and said something like, well, what do I say in the book? Something like, what are you moving there for? And then said, well, if you're not that big here at the moment, and I was like, okay, maybe quit while you're ahead, but yeah, anything else you can help me with, you know, say anything that, you know, why are you moving there?

You know, what you're moving there for? You think I said I was moving to Wiggin. You know, I was like, I'm talking about L.A. here, Hollywood. The big, you know, the big time. They really stick with you moments like that. Oh, they do. And you partly think, oh shit, you were right, Lisa. She was right.

But you know what? It gave me... Moving to L.A. was actually the making of me as a person. Hollywood, because that was a whole of the sit-suit. I mean, the experience I got out of that, I mean, it didn't end great. But those few years there, I could totally be myself. I was, you know, I lived in bloody Carol Lombard's house on Hollywood Boulevard.

I mean, it was just memories I'll never forget. you know. But it also... But it was dark. There was dark, because I took my addiction with me. You know, wherever you go, you take it. Was your addiction bad when you went to L.A.? Was it drinking every day?

No, no, no, no. I was known as a bit of a party, but I think in good old cab. Good old cab, but I still looked good. I was still young enough. I just dealt with the hangovers and I would always... But everyone was doing it on the scene in London. The Met Bar, these parties. It was normalised in the 90s and 2000s.

It was just like, well, it was part of being in this industry really. Yes, yes. But that's where I kind of discovered the daytime drinking, you know, in the sunshine, you know, it's all I had a lot of money and everyone's looking good. I was looking good. I was going to the gym, but then I could get away with it. And then when you went to LA, things professionally, you know, you had an agent, you were putting yourself up for things,

but obviously you're hemorrhaging money. It's an expensive. Yes. It's not a town you can really, you know, it's a difficult town to be pouring. And you're going through money like water. Yeah. I mean, I didn't drive. I believe I'm living in LA without a car.

I don't know how I got around that, but I had a BMX that I went everywhere and I got yellow taxis everywhere. And I had an agent, a manager. I was going on the auditions. What happened? the minute I moved out there I got a role in something so I thought oh well there here we go like I'm set I'm going to be at the Oscars soon

but then of course my father got sick so I was doing a lot of transatlantic flying battles and forwards to make sure he was okay and I put it was a lot of pressure but I had this you know I think I had so much pride that I could not return to England until I wanted to show everyone like I know I'm

talented, I know I'm good enough, I must make it in America now, you know. Kind of like what Robbie Williams tried to do, except he was a multi-millionaire and I was paying my parents' mortgage and, you know, going to the dollar store for my dinner. Do you know, that really makes a lot of sense and it takes a lot of guts to acknowledge and admit that, because, you know, you've done the work in recovery, but I feel pride is responsible for so much drama and trauma in our life. And yes, you were an addict and you were dealing with that. I'm not underestimating that by any means. But also the fact that, you know, you're spending money because pride.

I have to be seen in this hotel or in this particular apartment block. And I was very generous. Now, whether that's seen as holding people hostage, as we know in recovery, they have to be certain, you know, I would pay for everyone's stuff. I would insist on paying for everyone because that means you'd love me more. Right. That's so interesting, Cab. So that's holding people hostage.

Apparently, yeah, I've heard that said. I don't know if it's in recovery or some one of my things that I I'm literally too. Yes, it's a form of control. It is. It can be, can't it? And another thing is people pleasing is a form of dishonesty. I found out the other day. Well, I found out not the other day. To my horror. To my horror, because you're being dishonest with yourself and you're not really being honest with them if you're people pleasing. So that's something and I did both of those for many, many, many years. I still did to a degree. but you know I

I can honestly say I'm in a place where and I was very adamant for this book not to be pushed as a pity party and I think some people can't see past that because they've not read it and that's fair enough I can't force people to read it but I'm so glad that you connected to the real heart of it you know this stuff didn't happen to me

it happened for me because it's allowed me to have this whatever you want to call it, this new, I can die, I don't want to die just yet, but saying that I've written a book, that was not on the cards, I've written every single word myself, it's connected to people. And if I was going to, if I was going to do anything again, I think this feels like the best thing because it's, do you know what, and I'm going to say this and it sounds really car on it, I feel seen for the first time. I feel like people are

when you spend so many years doing interviews and it's quite shallow like now it's like I can just be the real me it took me a long time because also I think when you're authentic and honest and particularly when you're writing a memoir you know I have some experience of that

and I remember quite a well-known writer saying to me at the time I said I just am gripped by panic that people are going to see these things. People are going to know that I felt, you know, I wanted to end my life or whatever. You know, things like that, you get to these points through addiction or grief or whatever.

And he gave me some very good advice. He said, you know those things that you're waking up in the middle of the night and you're thinking of emailing the publisher saying how much does it cost to pulp a book? Wow. I thought, I had that feeling too. I had that exact feeling.

I googled. I googled. I googled. I googled. I googled. How much does it cost? to poll for book. And I'm on a mission. I think every person who goes there. I'm not saying rights a memoir saying my family are amazing. I'm so happy. I mean a proper does the work.

Yes. You did. Well, yeah. You should be told. You will feel this and it's normal. So I googled that and this writer said to me, you know that bit that it's your worst nightmare, the idea of anyone reading that. That's the bit that people will still be messaging you about in five years time saying you changed my life. And it's so true. And that I imagine is the same of you. Yeah. I mean, it's only been out, what, seven weeks?

So, but I'm, I've not done anything in an era of social media. You know, this is my first thing creatively that I've put out since there's been, you know, people are able to literally text you. Let's face it. You know, we call it DMs, but you can have strangers to send you a text. And that's what people are connecting to, you know. I mean, I will admit there's not been many. people from my peers that have been in touch. But I've had someone like Marianne Keyes says she devoured it in two sittings.

I've had you say that you read it twice. I mean, that's just amazing. These are people that I might never have. You might not have interviewed me had you not have read the book, you know? Yeah. So it opens up a whole world of people connecting to that real, visceral, raw stuff. And it is the stuff that I was afraid to write about what people are going. You know what?

That I'm so glad you said that because that's really helped me or that's in whatever, you know. So, this may be a difficult question to answer in the light of what we've been saying, but what was the thing that you found most difficult to look back on in terms of those rock bottom moments? Do you know what? If I'm to be totally honest, I think I was, I felt under so much pressure sometimes to, to get the book finished and to write it and to get it done by some of it was streams of consciousness where it was literally just coming out of me and because I wrote it in that first person is that what you call it when you're when it's in the present tense which I didn't realize I was doing

until life way through but it didn't afford me to look back and say this was right or that was wrong and this happened to me it shouldn't have it was it so I was and I think being in recovery. You know, like I've talked about some of this stuff in rooms for a few years. I've just not put it on. I didn't think about it going out in the world. I just got on with it.

If I'm to be honest, the one chapter that I held off till the very last, because I wasn't sure how it was going to affect me. And I haven't still probably dealt with it, if I'm to be honest, is my sister passing away. And I'm thinking, how can I

write about the hardest, probably the hard, I mean my dad's passing away was hard, but my sister was just a different experience. I thought, how can I write about this? So I just instead wrote, just a scene of the two of us in our favourite bit on the beach. And it ended, I actually said out loud, I said, right, Angela, you've got to help me out here. And so it ended up not being as sad, that's the one I held off. The rest just came out of me, to be honest. I understand that. And you know, I feel I lost my sister.

And I wonder if, I think you do have a special connection with people who've had sibling loss. Yes. It's a very curious kind of loss. Right. I always say, it is, isn't it? It's like the fellow witness to your childhood and life has gone. Yeah. Something odd about that.

You probably had, because you both, only you know, your parents and that and I used to say it's like we spoke a unique language and I feel no one else is fluent in it totally that is so good that is such a great way of putting it I absolutely love that and she was the person I would go to to tell first she was my first call good news bad news exciting that you know she was the first one I'd introduce her maybe any relationship to or she was the she was my exciting person you know she was my friend She was all that stuff. So I wanted to, I didn't know.

But anyway, so I think I did it justice. I wanted to sum up our relationship in just one little scene, one chapter rather than a whole. It was really beautiful, I thought. And you know what? She'd be so proud of you now. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, I think she would, yeah.

I mean, God, you forget your family. I mean, obviously I've got other family members. I'm thinking, I'll tell you a very quick, funny story. I was staying with my auntie Angela and she's mentioning the book. And the window cleaner came round and she had a copy of my book on the table.

And she went, oh, Anthony's written this book. And he went, oh, let's have a lot. No. And he opened it up. And he opened it up on a page and guess what it said straight away. He went, bloody hell. It says masturbating in the shower. Fucking hell.

I mean, that's the least of his worries. Well, exactly, yeah. But, Angela and Brightman. I'm going to take, I'm going to drop a cab home because we're getting on so famously. Thank you so much. That, you know, I think he feels safe to come in my car and he knows on the other window. Exactly. We'll soon find out.

Well, you should start calling me catty, then we'll be all right. Which is what one stalker called you. If you can read the book and find that out. But yeah, I feel. A friend that ended up being a stroke. Yes, this is true. It happens. It happens. I feel you did rehab a couple of times, didn't you?

And they often say, don't they, that it takes, I don't know if there's a figure or a stat of how many times it takes before it sticks. There isn't probably, is there? Because everyone's journey's different. But for you, you went in and out a couple of times. Yeah, I mean, the first one was because I was basically homeless. I had nowhere to live. And it was residential and it was government funded. So that was music to my ears. I just wanted my own place just to let asleep. You know, all the rooms at the inn had gone. Was that because you'd run out of money?

I'd run out of money. I'd run out of places to stay. Everyone, you know, they'd had enough for whatever reason, you know. That must be... I mean, I say it very matter-of-factly now because it's just so long ago and I feel like a totally different person, you know. but um so that got me into the world of recovery but i wasn't ready you know i came out and slowly but surely i forgot that's what you know i forget that i have this thing where i just you know

if i have a drink i want 10 million and and things usually go tits up pardon the pump um and so i was in and out for years of recovery and going to different you know going to some recovery meetings but this time it's stuck you know like uh and you know i it's no coincidence that my life has changed and i've i've got a book out like that i've been trying to do this book for years and years and years and years and years and it's not until i got my act together that it happened so i remember somebody saying ones and actually it was in there it was when i lived in there like i was musician this producer that was working with and I think he was talking about we were

saying about who we loved vocally and we were discussing Bonnie Ray and he said how he loved that album Nick of Time and da da da. Apparently that was about her getting sober and how she won the Grammy when she was much later in life. Sorry. And he said, won't do his accent but he said it's no coincidence that addicts are people in you know alcoholics or addiction It's no coincidence that their life's transform, the careers transform, once they finally get into recovery. And that's been my experience. Forget the outside stuff. It's great having all these lovely reviews and people connecting.

Of course it is. It means the world. But it is an inside job. And to get that self-esteem and to wake up with a purpose, right? with a purpose. And I wonder if it's something as an addict. I was going to say former addict, but you're never a former addict. Yeah, I mean, there's all different ways of saying it.

I mean, some days I say I'm still an alcoholic. Some days I say I'm just me. You know, I don't think about drinking. It doesn't bother me to be around people that drink. Yeah. I've just used a par my drink tokens in this life, so that's okay, right? Because I'm getting so many other things. I put down that and gained all this other stuff.

gained all this other stuff. So you cross here. We should say sorry about the noise. We're crossing a busy Islington Road, don't we? What road is there? And is your mum still around, Cap? My mum is, yes. I know she's, she's, um, got...

Alzheimer's, dementia, yeah. Dementia, yeah, I guess it's... Yeah, my dad had that. We've got so much in common. We do, don't we? It's quite tough to navigate that, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, she's in a care home in Manchester. and they're just amazing and I go I've just been there actually I go and spend afternoons with her

and we sit and we she doesn't talk in let's say a human language anymore but I know you know I can say this with a little bit of humor because we have to I think you can find humor in sometimes the saddest things but she is I'm going to write about her in the book I finished the book with just me and her, don't I? And I'll give him too much away. And in a way, like, she doesn't know that her daughter passed away. She doesn't know that I was in a... She wasn't aware of the absolute terrible state I got myself into.

So she's happy in her own world. And I get to be present with her now. And she still sings. I mean, she's going to be 90 in November. You know, she's outlived. My dad, my sister. she almost outlived me. I don't know.

I got my shit together. Do you think that? Do you think you came pretty close to death? I think so. I mean, according to those around me who saw me towards the end, I think either close to death or possibly some kind of mental damage, you know?

I thought when Crystal, mess came up. I thought, this is not good. Yeah. I mean, thank God it never got its hold. Really? But I was willing to try everything, you know, to change how I felt. And that was one of the things that, um, that came up. Um, but no, it, it started with the booze and it finished with the booze. You know, I would never pit up a drug had I have not of drank. Well, you, Bono said to you, when you met him in Browns once, a nightclub. Yeah. The good old brown. We were all in Browns in that room, babe.

Right, right. Maybe we were even hung out together back in the day. Or you know, we were in the same room or the same. We all know that room. We all know it. Yeah. But you were in Browns, the Bonne. And he said something to you, which came back to warn you a bit, doesn't he?

He said. Yes. He just said out of the blue. I, you know, I was like a deer in the headlights in those early days. Yeah. I mean, I was also hugely stalled. are struck by some of these people. Not so much the boy bands and stuff because we were all like high school kids going to this pop high school and the smash its tour stuff. But when I remember

seeing Bono in this place and yeah, I somehow got chatting to him and he just looked me dead in the eyes and said, whatever you do, Kavanaugh, don't do cocaine. And it was a bit late in the evening to be told it unfortunately for me. But I'll never forget that. Yeah. Very, very good advice, you know. It meant it from a good place. It was good advice.

Yeah. Do you know what, Kav? I knew I was going to love you because you've done so much work on yourself. And I think you're such a lovely, warm-hearted, beautiful person. And I feel like you're finally maybe starting to believe that. Yes. I still, well first of all that's very kind. I'll give you that money in a bit.

I do feel like I am. I just feel like I've got a bit more purpose now and I don't say that in some way. Oh, you know, here I am and back again and I hope people give me a chance. I believe in myself because no one else is going to. I've learned. And as long as I don't base my worth on outside stuff, I'm all right. Yeah. What do you think of Ray before we do? I love Ray. As he has a wee up the wall of this stranger's house.

We've all been there. He's reached his rock bar. Yeah, he's reached his rock bar. No, it's been brilliant and we got to walk in nature and hang out. Oh, well listen, we'd love to go for a dog walk when you again if you'll have us. I would love to. You're kidding. Ray, meet Calv.

He's our new best friend. Good boy, Ray. We love you. Give us a hug. Thank you. Say goodbye, Ray. Bye, Ray. Oh, he put his little part out.

Bye, Ray. He's a good boy. Yeah. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.