Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ashley James (Part One)

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

Ashley James is our guest on Walking The Dog this week! Emily, Ashley and Ray met in London’s Green Park for a stroll past Buckingham Palace - where we were accompanied by the changing of the guard! Ashley has a poodle called Snoop, who currently lives with her parents in the Lake District - after Ashley’s dad absolutely fell in love with him... she can't bring herself to ask for him back!As well as being mum to two young children, Ashley is a broadcaster and influencer who appears regularly on This Morning, and she uses her platform to be a voice for women and mothers online.We chat about how Ashley struggled with her identity after getting a scholarship to a boarding school, feeling insecure about her accent and what it was like to be on Made in Chelsea whilst struggling financially. Part Two of our chat is available here!Follow Ashley on instagram @ashleylouisejames Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So I chambermaided from about 12. This is awful. It's not the same to wherever. There's no prints up there to come and take me, which is probably why I'm a feminist now, because I was like, right, I'll fix my own damn shoes. This week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and I went for a stroll in St James's Park

with broadcaster, presenter, and someone with a legion of fans on social media, Ashley James. Ashley first rose to prominence on Made in Chelsea and also had a stint in the Celebrity Big Brother House, and by the way, she gave me a really interesting insight into her experiences on both those shows. But she's since gone on to become a really powerful voice speaking out about issues on shows like Jeremy Vine, Good Morning Britain, and via her weekly appearances on This Morning.

She's also got a huge fan base on social media where she posts regularly about her views and life as a working mum. I had a lovely walk with Ashley because she's such an honest and fascinating person to talk to, But it was also very event-filled. There were geese. There was a surprise encounter with Emma Barnett. We got serenaded by the regimental band doing the changing of the guard. We even saw a mystery member of the royal family drive past, who I've since discovered was Queen Camilla.

So all in all, it was a hugely memorable afternoon, and I think you'll love it. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the woman herself. Here's Ashley and Ray-Ray. Come on, Ray-ray. Oh, Ray-ray, there's a jogger. Don't get run over. A lot of joggers, Ashley. No, it's not me.

Is it not? No, not really back into it after childbirth. Oh, that really makes me warm to you. Now, are you okay to walk on the grass, Ashley? Because you have the most beautiful pink trainers. They're cool, aren't they? Well, they were cool. But I think you'll find their sambas, added a sambas,

and they were made uncool briefly. These are gazelles, but yes, I know what you're about to say. and Rishi Sunak ruined the sambas. Nigel Farage commented on it, and he said he preferred another Adidas shoe, and I didn't even want to look at which one, because I was like, I really like these shoes, and they bring me joy,

and I do not want them to get tarnished by any right-wing figure. Come on, Ray. Are we going to have a walk with Ashley? Ooh, you're getting off your lead. Do you want to come walk with me? Are you talking to me, or Ray, Ashley? Ray, actually. Sorry, I'm just here for Ray, I'm afraid.

getting my doggy fix. What do you think of him so far? It's so sweet. I love that he's not afraid to say, no, I'm not walking there. He's got boundaries and I think that's important in life. When you're that cute, you get what you want, if you say what you want, so...

I do apologise. Is that a number two? It feels like it's very early to be taking a ship. You literally met Ashley three minutes ago. I mean, I've touched more number two's the last few weeks than I'd like to in my life because my son's potty training. I'm so glad you said that second minute. It's not just a thing.

Well, Ashley, I'm so thrilled to have you on Walking the Dog. I'm very happy to be here. I'm with the hugely talented, Ashley James, podcaster, presenter, influencer, DJ. Although I have to say I took out DJ from my bio the other. the day. I feel like it was a pre-lockdown version of myself. It felt quite, it's quite a strange thing to kind of put your identity on something and then to kind of separate your ego to like, do I still want to do this or is it because I wanted to do it? And I feel like it's failing if I don't do it. Ray's just gone. Not interested. Bored already.

Ashley, you're going to see him run. It's the cutest thing. Come on Ray. Is there no dog like this in Beauty and the Beast? You know at the end when they all get transformed back to humans? Isn't that the brush? How dare you? Isn't it the brush? No, I'm sure there's a dog like this. Come on, Ray! There's something really special about seeing a really fluffy dog

bounce through daisies on a sunny day in London. So we're in London's Green Park where you very kindly suggest to we meet because you're actually based in Essex at the moment? I am indeed, yeah. But I'm moving. But I love Green Park because I actually, when I first came to London, I did a few different jobs, but I worked at Abercrombie and Fitch,

and we used to spend a lot of time on our lunch breaks. I feel like I am that kind of age where anyone around London was obsessed with Abercrombie and Fitch. So that's actually my partner, Tommy, he worked there too, which is kind of how we knew each other. Was he one of the hunks that would stand out? He actually wasn't. With his top off.

I personally think he could have done that. He'd be mortified. But no, he did the graduate scheme like I did there. But he just did it before he went travelling. What was most famous about Abercrombie, which, of course, was the terrible lighting inside as well. Hollister had that as well, didn't it? And the smell.

Yes. Did they pump through fragrance to make you buy clothes? No, it was literally, they'd pump it through the air vents. And they also would play the same album on repeat for a whole season and it repeated every hour so if you work there you're in this dark loud place where customers mainly the parents who did not want to be there would just shout at you so it was a terrible company with appalling morals and values and i think there's a reason it's not as big as it was but at least people will know that i'm not being paid by have a conby for you to mention

them that's ruled out that possibility well i won't in the Gap as a greeter. Yeah. I think that was probably a role I was given because they thought, oh, well, you're quite good at talking to people, but your shit is everything else. So I'd stand by the door and say,

Hi, welcome to Gap. Oh, I didn't know Gap had to do that as well. I think they phased it out after I did it. But it has made me think everyone should experience some sort of job like that. I think it's really good thing to do. like any jobs in general kind of broaden you a bit, don't

they? And make you a bit more empathetic because you kind of understand the hours and the environment that you're in. I was a chambermaid. My parents had a guest house, so I chamber mated from about 12 and I'd wash hair in my mum's salon and sweet floors, so I was put

to work very early, which I hated at the time. This is awful. It's not Cinderella. You're basically... Cinderella without the prince. There's no prints up there to come take me, which is probably why I'm a feminist now, because I was like, right, I'll fix my own damn shoes. So we're just going to cross over now, Ashley, into St James's, as you can see. You can probably hear the clip-clopping of the horses. We're outside Buckingham Palace, and it looks like someone very important is about to come out, doesn't it, because everyone's

waiting. All people just come here and hope. Oh, oh God, the poo. Don't leave a poo outside the I just, as actually just pointed out, I just thought to put one of those poos. Are you trying to make a political statement? Right outside, Buckingham Valley. I do apologise. So we're just going to cross over into St James's and I'm going to release this poo. Right. Some geese.

Quite aggressive geese, aren't they? Oh my gosh, geese and a squirrel. Talk me through your experience of dogs. I love dogs. I grew up from, I think, when I was born, we had dogs. And I lived on a farm, so we had working dogs as well. And I don't know if you ever met my dog Snoop. He's still around, but I made the very big mistake of asking my parents to look after him when we went on a holiday. My parents have both just retired.

They live with my grand, who has terminal cancer in the Lake District. They moved there during lockdown. and when I say Snoop changed their life, he's given them so much joy and happiness and for my grand that doesn't really leave the house very much. I just couldn't really request for him to come back. And I see him all the time, obviously, if I go see them or if they come to me. So yeah, Snoop now lives with my parents

and I don't even have the heart to tell them. It's because I don't want him back because I know how happy he makes them. But I think dogs are amazing. And I miss, you know, I really miss, even from a mental health perspective, waking up, going for a walk. That's how I spent so much of my lockdown going around Battersea Park with Snoop. And what sort of a dog is, Sam? Snoop's a toy poodle, and he's nine now.

And he was just with me through so many ups and downs of life. It kind of felt a lot of the time like it was me and him against the world, you know, when I was going through breakups and moving in and out of different rented properties and trying to find myself around London and try and find myself in my career. I feel like he was that kind of one consistent thing that they just show you so much love, don't they, unconditionally.

Did you have dogs when you were growing up? This is in the north-east, isn't it? Yes, I grew up in a really small town in the northeast, but it's sort of really close to the Cumbrian, border so it was definitely northeastern but it kind of has a lot of like Cumbrian influence very like much in the borders and yeah at the farm we had both working dogs and pet dogs and then we yeah we just always had dogs it's funny though because we always had kind of like five cross terriers and never never pedigree dogs so when I got snoop it felt like I've really made it getting a poodle and now my dad

He says, I never thought I'd have had a poodle man. If you'd have told me, but he's a great dog. We all say my dad found the first true love of his life when Snoop went to go live with him. It's been actually really cute seeing their relationship. But yeah, dogs have just always been such a constant part of my life. It's interesting because you were doing your dad's accent there, and he sounds quite jordy.

Both of my parents are very jordy. and often when people say about their biggest insecurities people talk about parts of their body or their face but my biggest insecurity has always been my accent because I was born obviously Geordie well I was born not saying anything I wasn't like some child prodigy where are you man

my first accent was Geordie and that was obviously my world and my life and then I won a scholarship to a boarding school so they have to let a certain number of the working clubs kids in and I got bullied. Not even bullied, that's an extreme. I got teased because of my accent. And when you're seven, eight,

you just want to fit in, don't you? And be like everyone else. And I was so bored of everyone being like, Have you heard the new Georgie girl? Go on, say something. Do a no. That's hilarious. So I'd kind of faked a posh accent.

And then it became my accent. But I had so many identity issues growing up because I always felt that I never quite fit into either environment that I was in and I never felt enough in either environment. So it's funny that now often people assume, especially because I did a show like Maiden Chelsea, they always assume that my background is so different to what it is and I feel like my accent sort of hide such a big part of my identity because we do judge people so much on their accents, don't they? But it means that I get to do a great impression of Georgie Jeff.

I think people are always quite surprised by my politics because of how I talk as well. I suppose my accents considered quite posh and I did a show like Made Chelsea. People always assume that I'm going to be quite a right-wing mouthpiece. So then when they hear more liberal viewpoints coming out, they're always quite surprised. Did you have a sense of not quite belonging in some ways, being... Always. Did you? Yeah.

And I still, actually, I will go into a room and assume everyone doesn't like me. And I think it's, I'm much better at managing that now. I mean, I used to be so, in my 20s, I was such a diehard people pleaser. And I'd walk away from people and situations and think, oh my God, I bet they're all talking about me. Firstly, I learned that I'm not the main character in everyone's life. So I don't think that as much. But yeah, yeah, I think my default is feeling not good enough. and I do think it stems from such a young age,

not feeling like I fit in at home and not feeling like I fit in in a boarding school, but always being told that as well. Like I was always being told, well, that's not normal. That's not normal, but what wasn't normal at home was normal at school and vice versa. What was your sort of family energy like, I suppose? Do you know what?

My parents, I'm going to say that, I didn't really see them much because my mum was a hairdresser. And she owned her own salon, so she'd done really well. And my dad was a truck driver, and then they both had the bed and breakfast, the guest house. So any time they weren't at one job, they'd be doing the other job. So whether it was my dad in the garden or speaking to visitors or my mum doing the chambermaiding. And they worked seven days a week. They took one week off for October holidays, but the rest of the time they were always working.

And I don't really have, I think as an adult I really appreciate their work ethic. And I think I've got a lot of their drive. And I also appreciate now more of the kind of difficulty that they had being a working class family with children in a quiet aristocratic environment. And so I can appreciate the fact that they didn't come to plays and hockey matches and all of those things because they couldn't because they were working. and they had to work to be able to afford, to be able to keep us there, even though we were scholarship children. I wonder if there was a part of them separating that as well,

that, you know, it's a weird thing, isn't it? That sort of, I want my kids to have a better start in life, I suppose, than I had, materially I'm talking about, and I don't want to get in the way of that, you know? No, I think, I actually know that they wanted us to have the opportunity as they didn't. My parents were actually both from farming backgrounds and they both, for different reasons, left school at 15. My dad had to take over the farm when his dad got cancer and my mum had to mend and cook and do all of those things. Rayway, don't go near the geese. So that's interesting.

Yeah, I think that they wanted us so much to have everything they didn't and to have an education and have opportunity. But I don't think they ever really thought that they were, sending us into really a completely different environment that it would change us. And I think, I'm sure that they wouldn't mind me saying that they were very resentful of that change. Like anything I did, it was like, what, you think that's normal? You think that's normal to behave like that? And I remember even silly things. Like at school we were taught to, I mean, it's totally sexist looking back,

but we were taught to address all men as sir. So I'd go to the co-op, wherever it was, in my town at home, like, thank you, sir. and dad would be like, what you doing man? It's embarrassing. And I was just this really like confused kid. But then I'd go to school and I remember my mum made the grave mistake of giving me a Victoria Beckham style haircut. So it was long at the front and shaved at the back. I don't know if you remember that Spice Girl era when I was 11 and that wasn't the kind of thing that boarding school kids did. So I got really teased for being a chav.

I remember another thing. My first bra, which I had to get when I was quite young before most. the girls were in bras I picked a black bra and I didn't know that that was considered not very classy so then I was teased for being tarty so there was just always these kind of like undertones and one one story I remember which I didn't really analyze as a child I mean what I'm about to say it just shows the polarised world that I lived in between coming from a working class northern town but I was staying at my friend's castle and And now King Charles was coming.

And we were having to practice curtsies. And anyway, they had told my parents to come pick us up, me up earlier. So I didn't, I wasn't part of it. And looking back, I do wonder if it's because they didn't want, like, the working class kid to be around in that environment. Whereas everyone else was, like, titled. And so it's really hard to explain because obviously I feel like immense privilege that everything in life has led me You know, I had these amazing experiences, but it was also just really confusing as a child. Crucially, what I think it does teach you, I think you become very portable socially,

and I think you're probably very good at that as well. You can adapt. You have to be adaptable, don't you? Yeah, I think it's giving me a lot of empathy as well because I've seen different struggles in different situations. Ray has gone over to find another family. What he's done, Ashley, he's gone over to hang out with people better than us, Maybe he's telling them about his identity troubles. I do think he looks at me sometimes and thinks, my ancestors lived in palaces with emperors.

Yeah. It's true. Your parents, were they huggy, demonstrative, affectionate types? The opposite of affectionate. Honestly, like, I remember even as young as I can remember, this feels like therapy now. But I remember trying to give my mum hugs, and she'd stiffen up and be like, get off me,

I don't like cuddles, I don't like cuddles. And I think that's also why as a early teen, I put kind of so much emphasis on boyfriends because it was the first time really, I remember when I found out with a guy who ended up being my first boyfriend when he fancied me. I don't even know if I fancied him. I was just so shocked that somebody liked me

or wanted to be around me that, yeah, I think that was the first time really that I experienced real affection, which is probably a bit sad. But no, they're not very affection. And my brother and sister, I think, were much more like that, whereas I always felt like I was born with a desire to be so affectionate. And I'm probably the total opposite now to my kids, to the point they're probably going to be like, my mom does not stop touching me. So yeah, it's interesting.

I feel like they are that kind of like stereotypical northern, much harder. And now that I'm a lot older, I can also appreciate, you know, they were from farming backgrounds. they didn't have that sort of affection. Yeah, that I think things were just much harder. Yeah, yeah. I guess that's the beauty of adulthood. You kind of see your parents as humans for the good and the bad, but you can kind of forgive them for what you struggled with when you were younger

because I always think, like, well, they did their best with what they had. Were you always seen as sort of tall, pretty, popular? No, and do you know what? I remember, but I say this, and I don't mean this to sound big-headed, because I've always had huge self-esteem issues, so I have never looked at myself and thought, wow, I'm beautiful. But I really saw myself as invisible growing up. Like I said, always never feeling like I fit in,

always feeling like the kind of odd one out, just not very... I wouldn't say I wasn't popular, but I certainly wasn't one of the cooler kids, and I certainly didn't... I always felt less than. And I remember when I... I think I was 13.

and kind of hearing whispers that the older boys fancied me. And I remember being like, me? What, me? And I'm pretty. Really? And it felt like I'd hit the jackpot because suddenly I was like, it felt like a currency or something that,

even though I didn't see it with myself. And it makes me sad now because I wish someone had sat me down and almost like warned me of like, boys are going to find you attractive or they're going to say things, which might not even be true. I just felt very gullible because it felt like for the first time somebody was seeing value in me and then I almost put so much value into the way I looked.

But I was also like pigeonholed at school as well. It would always be like, oh actually boys don't like it when girls do that or boys don't like it when I felt like I was almost being like groomed into being malleable for boys. And I just sort of wish somebody had kind of said, just giving me a bit of self-belief or like some tools to cope with that kind of attention, especially when I didn't necessarily believe it myself. So I didn't think, well, I deserve the best. I kind of thought like, oh my gosh, attention, this is amazing.

And I didn't really know how to do that in a confident way. Well, also, you can't sift through, you know, good attention from bad attention, if you know what I mean. Exactly. And I also really rejected beauty because I felt like women had a choice. You could choose beauty or you could choose brains. And I always felt like I wanted to be taken seriously. So I remember I stopped wearing makeup and I'd wear glasses that I didn't even need. And, you know, I'd scrape my hair back. And I actively did not want to be seen by adults as being beautiful.

Because I felt that as a girl, and especially as a girl with very big boobs, I was like automatically sexualised and almost like made to feel like, well, you're slutty by default. Look at your boobs, look at your body. Boys fancy. So even if they ping my bra strap, it was always like, actually stop attracting attention. So I always felt like being beautiful whilst it made me feel seen, it felt like a bit of a curse. Because I was like, but I don't want, I don't want boys to run after a minute and try and pull my pants down. I don't want my bra strap pinged.

I don't want to be like made to feel like I once got to tension. for hugging my brother and the teachers were like, do you think people in the town will know that who's your brother? What do you think they all think when they see you canoodling with a member of the opposite sex? And I remember thinking this feels really unfair. So it took me a long time and probably actually coming into this industry where suddenly it was like, sex sales, be more sexy.

I embrace all of that. And it just felt like for a long time, I felt like I had to pick being feminine or being intelligent. and you can't be taken seriously with both. I remember, because I always had a sticky out bum, right-ass, wrong decade. What can I tell you? It's so true. Now, I've been making a fucking fortunate Instagram.

You could have been the Kim Kardashian of your ear. But when I was growing up, I was growing up around the time of does my bum look big in this. But you know what was interesting? From a young age, I mean terrifyingly young. I can remember adults. saying things like, look at you showing your bum off, or I used to get showing off your curves, and I think I've just got a dress on,

or I've just got jeans on. Those messages start very young, don't they? I feel really passionately, and it makes me so angry, the sexualisation of the female body, because I realised throughout my life, so I was a 30-G from the age of 13, didn't pay for them, didn't want them,

they just got put on my chest and the level of judgment and attention that they got, they, my boobs, right from the very beginning. And it was always cover up. If you want to be taken seriously, boys like girls who don't show it, like show everything off, leave something to the imagination, boys would come up. And by the mind I was like 13, 14, are you shaven? What's your favourite position? I wasn't even sexually active and it was just constant.

And I think rather than adults trying to police boys and be like, it's her body. a lot of whistling going on, isn't there? Maybe there's some people coming out of Buckingham Palace. I always felt like I was the problem and it taught me really young that if I got unwanted attention that was because I hadn't covered up correctly or I had been asking for it

and that was such a toxic way to be and then it happens, you know, you see it in the tabloids all the time like so-and-so displays their generous cleavage or flaunts their ample assets And it's like, like you said, I'm wearing a bloody dress. I'm not flaunting anything. I'm not an object.

Like, I don't want people to look at my generous cleavage or my ample assets. But sometimes it's like, I'm wearing a high-necked t-shirt. What do you want from me? And then when I became pregnant and I was breastfeeding, it was like the same commentary of like, oh, your attention seeking. Put them away and go do it somewhere privately. And I thought, give me a break. Like, even when I'm feeding a child, I'm still being told that my boobs are a problem.

I'm attention seeking, but like, who do you think I want attention from? Like, genuinely, if I'm feeding my son or my daughter, what do you think in that situation I want? So, yeah, the hypersexualisation of female bodies, I just, it makes me feel so sad. And it worries me, obviously, I have a daughter now, and, like, can she not just exist in her body without this kind of commentary or sexualisation or idea that her morality is somehow attached to her body. What did you want to be when you were younger?

I don't really remember when I was really young wanting anything other than being a pop style. You know, just nothing. I never really thought about the future like that. But I do remember 13, 14, I really, really wanted to be a war correspondent. And I actually stood outside BBC Radio Cumbria in the holidays and I managed to convince them.

I'd stand there every day being like, do you need anyone to make tea? And I managed to get work experience at BBC Radio Cumbria, and it was so great. And I loved it, and I got to talk on the radio. I did these little segments on the smoking ban and just different kind of topical, local topical issues, like the price of Cumberland sausages.

And it was great. And I thought, yeah, this is it. This is what I want to do. And I realised quite quickly I couldn't be a war correspondent because I cried at every single sad moment of a movie. and I thought there's no way that I'd be able to go there and objectively report. So then I thought, well, maybe I want to go into international development. And I remember writing to all these different charities like Medicines de Saint-Frontier,

you know, people that go and work in conflict zones and thinking, well, I'll volunteer to work in conflict zones. And then I can help. And obviously, everybody was like, we don't just need people to turn up. You actually have to have a skill and do something. and I was actually meant to go to Edinburgh and do a master's in international development, but I changed my mind last minute. And then, yeah, it was only really, I guess, coming to London

and kind of seeing other people with dreams of media that I sort of really started to see it as an option. Because in the meantime, I was doing other jobs like lifeguarding and whatever it was that I had to do to make money. And you did a degree in, was it French and English? Yeah, French English. Did you do that? So I actually went to King's College London and then I transferred to Nottingham. So I managed to convince them to let me transfer straight into second year. It was a very good negotiation because it was also the year that the student tuition fees went up from 1,500 to 3,000. So I managed to not only convince them to not make me start again, but also to keep me on the same tuition fee.

And then I love Nottingham so much. Do you think, Ashley, and I appreciate this is a difficult question to answer, that people underestimate you intellectually a bit? 100%. But always, but I think especially being in this industry, number one, because I did a reality show, so we tend to all kind of typecast, oh well, they're just reality stars, and I get that.

But also I think from the attention that I got with the tabloids and the media, and I think people tend to forget that I don't write those articles. But sometimes I'd read about myself and think, oh my God, even I don't like me. I'm looking at this thinking like I sound like a dick because it would be things like I talk about the hypersexualisation of boobs and how it needs to stop and how women with big boobs shouldn't feel the need to cover up

and they're not asking for it but then that would get picked up by the tabloids and it would be a picture of me from when I lingerie modelled and they'd find the most provocative kind of male gaze image that they could find and it would be like Ashley James laments having big boobs as she flaunts her cleavage and I was like, God I just look like a...

dick. I just look like I'm saying things for attention. And I think for as long as the media sort of obsess over our bodies and who we may or may not have dated, that's how other people sort of see women in a way that I don't think people see men. But I love it, you know, now that I get to go on to this morning and talk about politics and topical issues and fight for social injustice. And I like that when people first meet me, I know, especially like men, they'll write me off and think, well, what does this dumb blonde have to say? And I think they're actually quite like, oh, she's actually quite intelligent. So I quite like proving people wrong.

And I've also stopped letting the tabloid sort of upset me. There was this horrible article when I was pregnant that said, Ashley James, who's famous for having big boobs and dating famous men. And I thought, am I? But it really got to me because I was like, I've worked so hard. Is that really what I'm known for? And I don't think it's even really true. but I was like, yeah, I don't know.

I think it's fine to be, it doesn't bother me anymore being underestimated. I want to talk about when you first, I suppose, became into people's wider public consciousness and that was through, you left university and you decided you wanted to work in some form, in the media or entertainment, and then this opportunity came up to be on Made in Chelsea.

Yeah. So presumably you were thrilled when that happened. No, so what actually happened was I had had a few jobs in London. I actually worked two jobs because I couldn't really afford to be in London on the start-out jobs that I was doing. So I'd work in a pub at night but do my graduate job in the day. And then I worked as a model for Abercrombie, which is essentially work as a shop assistant,

but they glammed it up and called it a model. Does that how they lure you in? I've got a great modelling job for you. Could you move that fucking stock, please? Pretty much, honestly. It's like, it's not exactly Naomi Campbell this, is it? Yeah, I feel like I've been shortchained. I'm just doing, my model job's just showing people into the changing rooms.

What's going on? But then I quit the marketing job I did and did the Abercombe graduate scheme, and then I actually went to Ittoo, and I was a general manager, a general manager, a Nitsu store. It was just awful because I had no experience. I've always been a very good blagger, so I blacked the job. I had no experience of really working in a restaurant,

never mind running a restaurant. And sushi as well, quite complicated. And very weather dependent. So you'd kind of, you know, if it was a sunny day, you needed sushi, if it was a cold day, you needed hot food. And I remember thinking, I was 25, thinking there has to be more to life than this.

How have I ended up here? And I'd worked such long hours because, obviously, I had to, all other people's hours came out on my budgets. And so I quit. And I remember I'd managed to save £2,000, which in my world felt huge. Like I was like, I've got £2,000, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to try and make it in television. But I had no contacts. I obviously didn't know anyone or anything about the industry. So I thought, well, with £2,000, that gives me two months to make it.

before I run out of money. So I quit, obviously my last day was on the Friday, and then I did a TV presenting course on the Monday, which was Monday to Thursday. And when I was there, one of the girls who was doing the course was like, oh, I'm an extra maid in Chelsea. So I looked up the production company, which was Monkey Kingdom. I saw that they hosted the red carpet of the BAFTAs and various things.

So I thought, well, I'll go meet them and tell them my presenter, and then I'll be the new. I'll be the new presenter of the red carpet of the BAFTAs. And so that's what I did. So on the Friday, I went as an extra on Maiden Chelsea. And then it was funny because at the time, Maiden Chelsea was huge, and all my friends watched it. But I was always like, I don't like reality TV.

I refuse to watch it with them. And so when they said, do you, like, will you film a scene? Or I think one of the boys fancied me and they were doing a speed dating. So they were like, can he date? you and I remember thinking this is really funny that my friends are going to watch it and I'll be on it. It was never really something that I ever thought that I would do. And then when they kept, they kind of were trying to keep me on, I was then like, well, hang on a minute, this is a chance to get an agent and to get a job. So I kind of always did it never because I thought I want to be on Maiden Chelsea.

it was always a kind of an inn to the industry but it just wasn't a very pleasant experience in my life so whilst I'm obviously really grateful for the platform I also thought I got a bit of kind of like I had the stereotype of being a reality style without being successful enough at it that it was like well at least I'm rich and famous so I was like I'm typecast but I'm still broke

I was like this is shit I'm essentially an extra main Chelsea and it was unenjoyable but I then had to still try and fight the the kind of assumption that well she's just a reality star but I'm pleased that I kind of stepped away from it

when I did I was only on it for like two or three months so I wasn't really a big part of it at all but obviously that show is so huge that it did allow me to get an agent and to kind of go on to do other things Why wasn't it a nice experience particularly? What was difficult about it?

I remember when I first went to film, no one talked to me apart from Molly Locke. And he was so lovely. And again, it was playing down, like playing into that huge insecurity I had of being in these posh, aristocratic environments and being the working class girl. And obviously, I'm not from Chelsea.

I'm not made in Chelsea. my dad drove trucks and was a fireman. My dad's got a jordy accent. So it kind of was sort of like the insecurity that I felt at school on steroids that I didn't feel like I was worth being on that show. And people just weren't very nice. And, like, yeah, I think, like,

I remember even thinking at the time, like, if I was on a show like this, I would try and make people feel comfortable but I very much felt like they didn't want anybody to come in and sort of take their place. But I remember one day, Olli Lott, coming to talk to me. And I was like, I just feel like I don't fit in. And I was like, my bag's not even real Walbury.

And he was like, oh, darling, don't worry, none of ours is. And yeah, I think I just so wanted to be liked and I was so paranoid about not being like that. I'm actually going to say it was kind of like the first sort of experience I had being a bit bullied or made to feel like I wasn't wanted there and it just wasn't very nice and it really confused me

being part of something that was real but then after filming someone being like I just said that for the camera and I was like oh my God this is like my real life and my real relationship and I don't understand and I think some people are really made for it and really thrive in an environment like that

and I just didn't and my mental health was like not good and I've also never been very good at dating people that everyone else in your circles dated and forgiving I don't know it's just the whole thing to me was I took to heart and found really challenging. No it is that's the thing that I would find is the sort of almost sociopathic levels of resilience you expect emotional resilience you're expected to have it's like oh they're dating now and I've moved on because it's been like two weeks you know I find, and that's to do with the nature of that kind of show, isn't it?

But I think you're absolutely right. I think you're either that suits you or it doesn't. Yeah. You know, and I think you've got to be wired in a slightly different way. And that's no disrespect by the way to any of the people that do that show. And I'm sure people would conduct themselves differently now with benefits of hindsight. Yeah, I don't know. It was just not a very good time in my life.

and it was a very sharp awakening into the sort of like celebrity world. And what I find interesting is that at that point as well, presumably you didn't have much money. And so you weren't going around in a limo or have a driver or... I mean, honestly, I'm going to say it was one of the most financially difficult times of my life because as I mentioned, I quit and I had £2,000. I didn't, you know, I had to pay my own rent. and bills as everybody does,

but when I first quit, I started doing temp work, so I would do anything that was, like, I would, I mean, I put flags on every seat as part of a team in Wembley before a football match. I would wear coffin warehouse tops and hand out flyers on streets, like anything, serve cocktails at events.

And once I started doing Maiden Chelsea and once it aired, I couldn't do that anymore because people started recognising me. And also Browns caught onto it, So they were like, oh, we've got someone from Maine, Charleston, wearing our t-shirt being paid £10 an hour. So I had to kind of stop doing all of that.

And I also had to be available for them to film it, that kind of like their beck and call. So I couldn't really have a job. And I remember it was just the whole thing was ironic. Everybody thinks now that I've done this show, that I've got like this sort of like silver spoon background. Right for these people. Now there's a brass band.

A brass band appears to be playing. I think there is something going on at Buckingham Palace. I think changing the guard is happening. I don't mind it. It's very fitting for someone who was on Made in Chelsea, who's about to tell us how broke she was on that show. Were there times when you were like, I don't know if I've got enough money for the day or...

Yeah, I remember that I would go to loads of events because it was where I could get free food, so I'd stock up for my dinner. and I just felt, but bear in mind, like now, I'd be confident enough to laugh about it and make it a thing, but at the time I felt like I had to pretend to be someone that I wasn't, and be in this weird celebrity world where I thought everybody, I thought like fame meant, that meant happiness and wealth. And I think lots of people do, which is why the appeal of fame,

like it draws so many people in, don't they? Like, I thought that would be the answer to all my problems and fix all my individuals, insecurities that, you know, once I became famous, then I could do what I want and be who I wanted and everyone would love me sort of thing. But yeah, it was just a really surreal experience to be broke. So I lived in Surrey because I had to move out of my flat in London and a friend of mine, he was a rugby player and I moved in with him in his parents' house. So my rent was £400 a month, which was obviously much more manageable. But every month I'd be like, where am I going to find that money. Like, I don't have

£400 pounds. And so he would drop me at Richmond because that's where he trained and then I'd walk in from Richmond to Chelsea or Philemon or Evan. Obviously, I didn't tell anyone and I kind of felt like it was that sort of like fake it to make it.

Yeah, I mean it's almost like laughable looking back but I just was so persistent. I just knew that I just had to keep going in this industry and obviously once I left Made in Chelsea different opportunities came but even my late

20s you know I was living in a flat that was pretty much crumbling in Kilburn and until really I started to DJ I didn't make any money and it is a real struggle I think for anyone that's not from a wealthy background as we know like trying to get into their creative

world it's so hard because you have to be flexible like you have to be able to go to castings or auditions or whatever it might be but also you do kind of have to keep up appearances especially back then, it was all very smoke and mirrors, wasn't it? So I'd be going to these events. There was this article that it was about people that go to the opening of an envelope,

and I think I was like one of them. But I remember thinking, like, because I get to eat and I get free drink, it was great because otherwise I just couldn't afford to do anything. What that tells me is that it's the shame attached to it, that when things are secret, they become shameful. And you felt you couldn't, you didn't have anyone particularly, around you who you know you can bond with someone over that I always say to people when you go and see a bad movie if you go and see it with someone it's like oh we can laugh at this it's

an experience you enjoy it you sort of see the funny side of it or you can try and find ways to get through the experience on your own it's the most depressing thing and I think anything on your own like that it's actually it's what you're going through but it's also the isolation that I think, personally I think that's what's really tough. You know, when you're students and you're struggling, everyone's struggling. Yeah, and actually they wouldn't have wanted me on the show had they known who I was. So that was the other thing. It's like I felt like I didn't belong there and I didn't belong there.

But I also felt like it was the way in which I could have the opportunity to make it in the industry. And obviously I also didn't foresee that it's kind of a double-edged sword, isn't it? because once you get typecast as a reality start, you have to fight really hard to then overcome that. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it.

And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.