Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Bella Mackie (Part One)

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

This week we’re on Hampstead Heath with the brilliant author Bella Mackie - and her labrador, Barney! Barney (aka Banana Head) is no stranger to Walking The Dog - he has previously appeared on this podcast with Bella’s husband Greg James! He’s a pretty special dog - and we were thrilled to take him out again. Bella’s always had dogs throughout her life and Barney came into her life after she and Greg went to Battersea with the intention of getting a small dog… he may not have been what she wanted to get but it’s clear Bella loves Barney a hell of a lot. Bella tells about her childhood in North London, how moderating an online comment board led to her to changing her name, and how running helped her to manage her anxiety and OCD. Listen to Emily and Ray’s first walk with Barney (and Greg James) from September 2022 here Follow Bella on Instagram @mackie_bella Bella’s new novel What A Way To Go is a gloriously funny and dark story about dysfunctional families in the shiny but cruel world of the extremely wealthy - you can get your copy here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I once came here on a summer's day and he went into the pond to get two tennis balls he'd found. 45 minutes later, I could see him sinking because he was sort of tired but he wouldn't get out. So one of my friends had to strip down to his pants, dive in, go and get him. And my friend's kid was like, Daddy's going to drown. I was like, no, no, Daddy's going to be fine. But Daddy did get a horrendous full body rash the same day. Yes. This week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and I went.

for a North London stroll with best-selling author Bella Mackey and her beautiful Labrador, Barney. Bella has, of course, had huge literary success with her brilliantly, darkly comic revenge novel, How to Kill Your Family, which is soon to be turned into a Netflix series starring Anya Taylor Joy. She's also written really honestly about how running helped her mental health challenges in her critically acclaimed book, Jog On. Barney, we should say, is also a bit of a star in his own right, because Bella, and her husband, Greg James, are often posting about him on social media. He's even got his own giant following on Instagram. So Barney is a very lively Labrador and Ray is a borderline snooty,

tiny Shih Tzu. I know, sounds like a bit of a disastrous pairing. But they'd had previous when Greg came on this podcast, and I have to say, I think Ray might have genuinely found an unlikely new best pal. I think you'll also definitely want to make Bella your new best pal after listening to this. She's just so funny and smart and open and basically a truly lovely person to spend an afternoon with. We also chatted about her latest book, What a Way to Go, which is a brilliantly funny page turner of a who done it, packed with genius twists and all set around this horribly dysfunctional inheritance-obsessed posh family. So do order your copy now and I promise you won't put it down. I absolutely love my walk with Bella and I really hope you do too.

I'll stop talking now and hand over to the fabulous woman herself. Here's Bella and Barney and Ray-Way. Come on Banana Hood. He's quite slow. I'm quite relieved Bella. I thought you were calling me Banana Head then. He gets called lots of ridiculous names. Someone asked me the other day if he was called Banana.

I was like, oh I wish we had called him Banana now. That would have been a better name. Come on Barney. I think we could have come up with a better name for him. But his original name was Marley when we got him from Batterstein. him from Battersea and I always thought why have you named your dog after a famous dog that dies? You know?

A Labrador that dies. So I thought, okay, well we'll call him something that sounds like Marley to him and we went with Barney because we thought it sounded enough like Marley but I wish we'd been a bit more imaginative. I think Banana would have been a great name for him.

Yeah, I mean it would have been quite sort of confronting. And comic because he's the funniest dog I've ever met and I've had many dogs. and he's the funniest dog. I think alive. Ray, I can exclusively reveal Bella, Mackey, is the slowest dog you never met.

Oh, Ray. Oh, bless him, he's really trying. So I might have to pick him up because he does have runs, but just when we're... We can go slowly. Bonnie has... Bonnie has two... In fact, he has four messed up legs.

So he has to go very slowly anyway. Oh, Ray. I will say the dog you had. and then the job you do, maybe the dog and the job don't match. You could have got like a racing hound or something, you know, something that really really wanted to walk. It feels like Ray maybe just wants to be carried. This is what I feel, although you know what it is?

He really goes for it when we're on sand or grass. Oh yeah, they get the zoomies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He does that as well. It's almost like he thinks he's too good for... Have you not got one of those bags for him? I had someone in this podcast recently, a Kate Nora it was, and she brought a pram along.

And I thought, I really want the confidence. I'm working up to it to go out with the pram. But she's got a kid and I think as a child free woman. Yeah, to have a pram. Yeah, it's a bit. Yeah, I know what you mean. There's a very old lady near me that walks around and she's got a pram and it's full of dolls. And I always think, oh, is that going to be me?

And we also think with Barney's legs, because they're all going to go at some point, all of them. Uh-oh, uh-oh. I think at some point they're all going to go. And then I think, well, we can't get them a pram. what are we going to do? Are we going to get him a flatbed? Are we going to get one of those IKEA trolleys? Because we will. We've talked about it and we're like, we're both not ashamed. We will do it for him.

But are we going to walk around the park with a flatbed? We have discussed a dog stair lift. We googled it the other day. And there is no such thing. But you can get a pulley system where you winch the dog up. I mean, he won't do the stairs. So currently we have to carry him up to our bedroom when he wants to come upstairs. Do you know what I like Bella?

It's that already it sounds like we're sort of quite grunfew. appealed him and talking about our husband. He won't do the stairs. I've asked him, but he won't do it. I know, I won't do the stairs. It's useless. I know, but also I wouldn't do that for Greg. I'll do it for Barney. But if Greg needed to be carried up the stairs, I'd be like, you're on your own. Can't do that. Do it for Barney.

Come on, Barney. So, I should say I'm with the fabulous Bellamacki. And we had to talk about all sorts of things, including your brilliant new book, which I've had a sneak preview of. And I'll get this out the way first. I absolutely loved it. Be terrible if you said, and I absolutely hated it. Just get this out of the way first.

I just didn't mention it until the end, and I said, oh, by the way, she's got a book coming out. I think it's okay, but that's really the worst. Have you still got time to make any changes? Listen, I wake up in a cold sweat quite often thinking about changes I could have made, and it's too late. There's nothing I can do. Well, when I wrote a book, I remember I found myself Googling, how much does it cost to pulp?

You didn't? Oh my god. To pay for it to be pulled yourself. Yeah. I want to say I'm so thrilled to have you on this podcast Bella because I've had your other half on this podcast. Is this the first time you've had a dog repeat? Oh, I've had a few repeat visits. Lee Mack has done it a few times. This is two different people but with the same dog. Yes. Is that some kind of record? I'm already seen quite a competitive side to, Bella, ma. I am quite competitive. Are you?

Yeah. Yes, that is the first. And so I've met Barney before through lovely Greg James, your husband. Yeah. And I really loved Barney. I thought he had a very lovely energy. I'm saying that in the past tense, I still do.

I'm pretty sure Greg said, oh my God, Barney was a nightmare. He barked at everyone. He barked at Ray. You know, he was a nightmare. I'm pretty sure. I remember him coming back slightly harassed saying he's a nightmare. No, I think he barked at some... Some children?

I think there was some children. Yeah, yeah. It's probably some children. First weekend we got him, he charged right up and jumped on a child in a pram. And the kids started screaming, he was about six. And we were mortified and the woman said, oh no, it's fine. It's just he has a terrible phobia of dogs. And I thought, oh my God, why have we got this dog?

Why? Why have we got this dog? I went to Battersea and I wanted like a small dog. I wanted like a small old staffy. I'd seen one on the website. It was called Mary. It was eight. And I thought, she's lovely. I'll look after her. We can be old ladies together.

And then Greg saw him. we'll have that one and I was like, oh, I know what the future is and I've been correct. He's a nightmare. I've just remembered who it was that Barney Barcliffe at. It was a group of firemen. I don't know if you call him firemen now, and you call them? Fire people. Sounds weird me saying it, but I'll give it a go.

He doesn't like men in uniform. He and I are very different. He has no authority. He doesn't like authority. He doesn't like men in hats. He doesn't like men in uniform. He doesn't like builders. he's got a thing about men in jobs of authority.

He doesn't like it. To be fair, I don't like that either, but he really doesn't like it. He'll go for them. Look at him going on. Oh, you know where he's going. He's going to the pond. Enjoy the walk, Ray, because there won't be any walk now

because he won't get out of the water. So let's all enjoy this. I should say Barney, I think also, yeah, he did get into the pond. I think we've had some problems last time before getting into the pond. I once came here on a summer's day and he went into the pond.

He went past the, you know, the bollars. the duck bollards over them to get two tennis balls he'd found couldn't get them both in his mouth while swimming 45 minutes later he started i could see him sinking because he was sort of tired but he wouldn't get out so one of my friends had to strip down to his pants dive in go and get him and everyone was watching just hysterical laughter and my friend's kid was like daddy's going to drown i was like no no daddy's going to be fine but daddy did get a horrendous full body rash the same day from being in the lake so I had to send him like 200 quids worth

of wine and food to say sorry so I'm hoping that's not going to happen today because I'm not getting in I'm assuming you're not going to get in so we'd have to find like a local hero to do it well I would suggest if I'm but unfortunately he's got beef with them we wouldn't respect them yeah

oh that's a nice dog what's that better I think that's a mix of things isn't it there's Barney coming to look for me to say there's water mum there's water. Yes, hello. Are you going to bark? Yeah, there you go.

Yes. Oh, God. Oh, he's so adorable, Bella. He is. I mean, we've spent a lot of money trying to fix his legs. He owes us, but yeah, he is adorable. So take me back pre-Barnie.

Did you have dogs when you were, because you grew up in London, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And did your family have dogs? Yeah, we, like, obviously, like lots of children, we mounted a campaign for a dog when we were little. You know, you write the list saying, well, walk it every day and blah, blah, blah. And then, I'm just watching.

We got a golden retriever that's, I mean, my poor mom, she worked. She had two kids, and then she had this golden retriever. And when the golden retriever was about eight months old, apparently she said to herself, I can't do this, I can't look after children, my job and a dog. So she sent the dog, my grandpa was a farmer up in Scotland, she sent the dog up to the farm and the gameskeeper nearby was like, I'll train it, I'll keep it. And then after a couple of weeks, we were so devastated. We would send messages to mum, like coming to the bath and when she was in the bath,

holding up signs saying, how could you do this? We just want Angus back. And eventually she thought I've made a dreadful mistake. So she called her dad and her dad said, oh, it's fine because the gameskeeper says he's useless. So my grandpa brought him back down on the train after two weeks and we got him back. And he lived till I was in my mid-20s. And then I got a pug, which was a mistake really, because I think pugs don't have the happiest of lives.

Although he was a grumpy old sod and lived till he was 12. And then I got a rescue dog with my ex-husband. And she was wonderful. And she was the dog, I think, that made Greg think that he could get a dog. And then she died really suddenly five years ago. She had a seizure and died in the middle of the night. but we'd already had Barney by then for about six months. So, yeah, so I don't think I've not had a dog in my life since I was about nine, eight, nine, seven, eight, nine, yeah.

I think there's constantly been a dog in my life. We should say Barney's just emerged out of the pond. He went in, he barked at, I'm doing this mainly for Greg, because he's not here to see this. He barked repeatedly at two perfectly innocent bystanders, grab someone's tennis ball, and now he's out. To be fair, I did bring him a frisbee. Did you? Yeah. Sorry, is he trying to dominate your dog's water time?

No. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. It's a community ball. It's a community ball. That's fine. It's her first time in the water? Oh, so he's actually ruined her first time swimming.

Do you want to try this for her? You do it because you're a man and I'm not a good thrower. Oh, you see Bella, look at all the normal dogs raised. Wait, do you want to go in? at school. Not a swimmer. Not a natural swimmer, huh? Barney. Maybe not such a good idea now. It's just too many... Oh Barney. It is getting a bit dog soup in here, isn't it? I should say. There's a, what do you say, Bella? Seven or eight dogs? Yeah, seven dogs. Yeah, seven dogs.

Yeah. And Ray, I'm afraid you're not invited. Has Ray ever been into the water? No. As in literally never even tried. I bath him. He gets in the bath. He's quite a fearful and anxious. Are you fearful and anxious? I've completely projected that onto him. I know, I've done that to Barney as well. You realise it gives you a bit of an insight into what parents do to their children.

Well, right? I mean, you know, I think it would be hard to be an incredibly anxious parent and to have a kid that was completely not, you know, had no cares in the world. Yeah, yeah. But I think I've definitely done that to Barney as well. Barney, if I put you on the lead, mate,

you can take the ball with you because you're the winner now. All right, I've got him. Let's keep going. Come on. You've got your ball. You're the winner. Well done, Barney.

He once at that very pond. A very nice man had his quite young dog and he'd bought a life-sized rubber pheasant for this dog to catch in the pond. And Barney got it and wouldn't let it go. For 45 minutes we both stood there while trying to get it out of Barney's mouth. Come on.

No, we're not going back in. Come on. No. No. Barney. No. I'm going to have to tighten this up otherwise he's going to make a run for it. Come on, you'll get another swim later on. Come on. You know Ray really loves Labrador's. They're his favourite dogs, I think, because I don't know, I think they're just innately quite gentle. They are very gentle. He's incredible with my nephew, who is a very rambunctuous two-year-old.

And Barney not only, you know, kind of licks his hand gently, you know, doesn't jump up, but also if he wakes, if my time, If my nephew wakes up, Barney will go and sit outside his door until someone realises this. What, you want to go this way? What are you doing? We can go up there. Come on, Barney. Does Ray ever take you the way Ray wants to go? Does he ever? Because Barney, the way we walk is just, it's where Barney wants to go. Yeah, that's what I do with Ray.

Because the way I see it is their time. Yeah, it is their time. It's a bit like if I went to the manicurist, I choose the colour. No, you're right. You are right. And I think, yeah, you know, give them the way they want. Oh, Ray. Come on Ray Show Bella how you run!

Have you ever done an interview where you've had to go somewhere that's kind of less parky and more rural and that Ray has kind of struggled with? We've had some shockers I did Bez

who lives rather brilliantly there's some very aristocratic man and he's been given a sort of folly on the grounds to live on because if you were loaded you think I've got like Bez

living in my estate you know it's quite a Victorian idea I don't want to say the fool, but you know, you would keep someone a sort of an amusing person or an interesting person. So, yeah, he lives on these grounds. He was taking us through Bracken and... Oh, Jesus. Ray was... And then we had...

Come on, Ben. Catherine Ryan, yeah, once in a field after it was really muddy and... But her dogs are tiny as well, aren't they? Yeah, but I had... Again, I panicked and she was very calm and she said afterwards, I don't understand. You were so... I always think of you as... You've been through quite a lot and yet you freaked out over a bit of mud.

And I said, oh no, I'm great in a real crisis. But just in the smaller moments, yeah, those are the times. Are you like that? No, I'm terrible in both. It's true. Terrible in both. So you've always had dogs, as you say. Yes.

And I want to get a sense of your childhood. And I feel I kind of have a sense of it anyway, because I feel we maybe grew up in relatively similar households. Because my parents were sort of in the media, and I grew up in North London. Yeah. And are we allowed to say what your parents do? Yeah, they were both spiked. So your dad is Alan Rosbridgeer.

Yeah. Who went on to become the editor of The Guardian. Yeah. And your mum, she's a journalist as well. She was, yeah, yeah, and a campaigner and think tanks and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, lots of charity stuff. So really interesting people. Yeah, I mean what you, I mean, I think probably from the outside you just say that's kind of the most North London media elite cliche of all time.

Like the poster child for that. Yeah. So you probably do have exactly the measure of it. Grew up in Highbury in the 80s and 90s and then moved to Kentish Town. I'm imagining then that your house was it quite, imagine there were a lot of really interesting, lively, animated conversations. Were you encouraged as kids to sort of have opinions and sort of chat with the adults almost? We were definitely encouraged to chat.

But I mean, I don't, it wasn't in any sense like an academic household. or a household where someone would start off a kind of, you know, what do you think about, you know, Keynesianism or whatever? It wasn't like that. And there were interesting people in the house. But really, I mean, I was quite profoundly uninterested in anything that could be considered kind of academic or intellectual as a kid. You know, that kind of bypassed me. I was much more sort of, you know, can we do colouring in?

Can we go to Pizza Express? all that kind of stuff. So I probably didn't take advantage of it as much as, come on, as much as I could have done. But, you know, I think more than that, it was just a very relaxed house, you know, very, very liberal, lefty parents and sort of not really such things as curfews and all that kind of stuff. I remember my mum wants grounding me and I said, okay, fine, well, if I'm grounded, can I have people over? And she said yes, because she really had no idea what grounding meant. So I just ended up having 30 people over in my room. So, you know, not a lot of kind of punishment or, you know, discipline. But my dad was very strict about very odd things.

So my dad would get very angry when he saw my sister reading a Jackie Collins novel. And he said it's heroin of the mind. No, I think that's similar. Yeah, I think my parents would get very sort of stressed out if I was reading trashy sort of teen magazines. Or watching, you know, really sort of brain rotty TV. But yeah, things like staying up or, you know. eating too many sweets. That was kind of all fine.

And I think that's kind of a lovely way to grow up, but I think Greg is always a bit horrified that there weren't any rules, you know. Yeah, well, other people would kind of describe it as bohemian, I suppose. Yeah, we definitely weren't bohemian because my mum is kind of Scottish Presbyterian. Definitely not bohemian.

My dad's parents were, you know, my grandma was a nurse, my grandpa was a teacher, and my mum's parents were farmer, so it wasn't definitely not bohemian. Yeah, my mum definitely has that slight Presbyterian Scottishness to her. You're doing it, buddy. You're doing so good. Come on, banana face. Let's go. Yeah, I bet it was quite a nice household, though.

I like the sound of the... It was nice, yeah, and, you know, my mum was, says, oh, we should have been stricter with you. And then I would say, but, you know, me and my sister turned out, okay, we didn't, you know, get involved with kind of really hard drugs, or, you know, we didn't flunk of school. so you know he didn't do anything badly wrong I'm always interested in because your dad I know you were a bit older you're probably a teenager when he joined the Guardian but no he was

there from when I was I was it 95 actually he was it yeah but he was already he was already there yeah so yeah I think it was 95 yeah so sort of all you knew in a sense was your dad having a very high profile role at the Guardian and then being editor and yeah I'm always interested in how you manage and handle that as a kid and a teenager because it's a high-profile job. And, you know, a lot of the time, whether it's friends' parents or just people you encounter saying, oh, what does your dad do? You get asked that all the home. What does your mum do? And, you know, you say, oh, he's an accountant. Oh, interesting. Oh, he's a teacher.

But when you say, oh, he's editor of the Guardian, that's something that provokes questions and opinions, I imagine. And I just wondered how, was that something you had to learn to sort of navigate or? No, I don't think so, because it was all like, I just knew them as journalists. And so it didn't feel strange to me, I guess. I'd just say they were journalists. I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, my dad's the editor of the Guardian. But that's quite telling in itself about you. No, I don't think so.

I think it's just... Because I think that shows that you weren't using it as currency. I'm sure I did. I'm sure at some point I used it as currency in my teenagers. But you changed your name. You could call yourself Bella Rusper journey, you don't. That was for a different reason, because I then went and worked at the Guardian, which is just like, as I see it now, I'm like, oh God, that is just nepotism. But at the time, I was 23, and I mean, firstly, I was an idiot.

And secondly, he didn't get me a job. Someone that I knew at the Guardian, obviously through him, called up and said, oh, can you come and do two weeks just paid work going through a database? And I thought, yeah, sure. And then after two weeks, she was setting up a new site. And she said, look, can you just stay for another couple of weeks because we don't have anyone doing. this. So I said, yeah, and then it turned into three months, and then it turned into six months, and then I was there. I didn't consider the fact that actually I shouldn't be working where my dad was. I shouldn't, my first proper job should not be, you know, a job that I got just because of

who my dad was. And obviously now, I think, God, I should not have done that and I would never do that at my age now. You know, I just think, God, you know, that's kind of everything that's wrong with the world, and I was part of that. But the reason I changed my name is because I was moderating a comment site, someone that I was moderating, someone's comment who I deleted, then got in touch with me by email and said, I'm going to come to your house and cut your head off. And so when you got threats like that, this is like early on in the comment era, they got the police in and they said, blah blah blah, blah, it's probably not a real threat, et cetera. But then someone said, look, let's change your name, just specifically for this guy. It wasn't really for anything else. It was just for this

guy. And was it because of your, he recognised the name as your dad's name? No, no, it wasn't even that. He was just an angry man. It was nothing to do with anything, but she just, for some reason that was, you know, she just said, well, let's just change your name so that as a moderator, you're slightly less. Someone's, you know, people aren't able to find out who you are so easily. And then it's stuck. And I guess there's something to do with, you know, you think it's a very recognizable name. But it wasn't, again, it was kind of slightly thoughtless. I think I was thoughtless in my early 20s so everything was slightly thoughtless and then it sort of just ended up being my name it's one of those things that you know in your early 20s you do a bunch of things that

you slightly come to regret quite deeply later and you think oh i shouldn't have taken that job and i shouldn't have changed my name and all of these things that you shouldn't have done i shouldn't have had a relationship with that person and they're the kind of things that weigh heavily on you when you're 40 but you're not thinking about them at 23 or whatever you went amelio estuze instead of Charlie Sheen and i don't think there's any i don't think there's any i don't think there's any i don't I think that's no bad thing. I will say it. I think probably Emilio Estabez is the better Sheen brother, isn't he?

Yeah. I've obviously read your brilliant book, Jogon, which was the first book you wrote. So I felt I got quite an insight into what sort of a, some aspects of what you were like growing up. And you were really honest in that book, and I certainly found parts of it, all of it really, incredibly helpful. I think you were quite an interesting kid, weren't you? Because you would, you were very, very attached to your parents. And you would get sort of separation anxiety when you were apart from them? Yes.

How did that manifest itself then? You would... We've lost Ray. Oh, my poor old Ray. Ray, I'm going to have to get a new model. I was going to say, you could leave Ray at home and you could just do rent a dog for the interviews. Do you know what I'm thinking? Every week you have a different dog, like, more beautiful than the last?

I'm going to have to bring a, we're going to have to get a Love Island bombshell, Ray. Yeah, I think you are. Just a real hottie, just to kind of, just to do the, just to do the walks. And when Ray comes out, it's a real honour. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So then the guests that have Ray really know that they're the ones you really wanted the top picks. Yeah. Come on, Bonnie.

So, yeah, so I was saying, sorry, you. Yeah, I was, I don't think I was an interesting child. I was just a really anxious child. I think they grew up to be the most interesting adult sometimes. I don't think so. I don't think I'm interesting. I think, again, I'm just anxious. Yeah, I had huge separation anxiety,

and that would manifest itself in, I can't remember, I just cried a lot all the time and thought they were going to die if they went out. And I remember going into my mum's room and spraying perfume around the room because I wanted to smell what she smelled like. She'd been out for about 10 minutes. And then I thought, oh my God,

I've sprayed so much perfume into their bedroom that they're going to choke on this and die. So then I spent the rest of the evening feeling like I was about to kill my parents. And obviously, this was all kind of pre-me, ever being diagnosed with OCD or anxiety, but very classic. Yeah. OCD and anxiety.

You know, I wouldn't be able, I'd say I can't breathe or, you know, I've got stomach cake, all of that kind of stuff. You know, the classic things that kids say when they're anxious. That really breaks my heart thinking of you so sad. Well, I mean, you know, I had a very nice family. It's not like I was growing up with kind of trauma or abuse or anything. It's, you know, it was just one facet of it. But definitely we would sprout up and then go away.

And I think my parents always knew that I was kind of. a worried child but in the 80s there just wasn't really that language you know it wasn't it wasn't oh you know you should go and take her to a child psychologist or whatever there was nothing like that it was just like oh she's she's a bit of a worrier well do you remember in the 80s there was also that that was an expression that people would say i remember people would say to my parents well he's just a bit of a problem child problem child yeah that was a diagnosis yeah yeah or black sheep or you know yeah no or difficult i think that was another one you know she's a difficult teen or are difficult, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

So yeah, it's not, I don't think it was the greatest time to be born into the world with mental health problems, but then again, presumably no time before that was also a good time to be born into the world with any kind of problem. As you say, luckily, you had sensitive sort of smart parents who were, or just, you know, sounds like they were very empathetic as well. Yeah, they were to a point, but I think also there was, there was an element of, you know, they didn't know what was going on. Yeah.

And I think probably it was quite frustrating to not be able to figure out why your kid doesn't want you to go out or, you know, freaks out if they have to go and do new things, doesn't like change, you know, all of that kind of. I think that's probably if you don't have the language for it and you don't have experience of it, I think that's naturally probably pretty frustrating for anyone. And, you know, for however much, you know, it's lovely to have empathetic people around you, there's no way that if you're dealing with someone you love that has mental health problems, that it's not also frustrating and draining. and all those kind of things. And were you close to your sister? Yeah, she's my best friend. Yeah, we were always close and she's wonderful and not really like me.

She has her worries and her, you know, stresses, but she's definitely not like I am. She's much more independent, you know, she kind of went travelling and moved out and all of those kind of things, and I just couldn't do any of that stuff. You know, well into my 20s. I remember reading Helena Bornham Carter

apparently didn't move out of her parents' house until she was in her 30s. And as a kid, I always thought that was a bit bit weird and then I sort of ended up in my twenties being like, oh no, yeah, no, I'm doing the same thing. So if you drop the ball, are you eating, what are you eating? What are you eating? Drop the ball, ate something, picks up the ball.

Bonnie? Bambum. You later discovered that there was a girl you'd gone to school with, I think this is by the time you're at secondary school, who referred to you to her mum, who'd say, oh, were you the sad little girl, a very sad. sad little girl. Yeah, that was in year seven at secondary school when I spent the entire year crying and having like huge episodes of de-realisation where everything felt like the world didn't

feel real and everything looked wrong and I just, I basically spent an entire year crying. And yeah, in year eight when I became friends with her, Lucy said, oh yeah, you were known as the girl that cries all the time, the sad girl. Yeah, it's not a great nickname, is it? But then I guess, you know, there are worse ones. Yeah, I think it's different, I don't know, some people, you know, really don't like change, especially anxious people. So I think obviously, you all know this,

but, you know, times, big life changes, you know. Yeah. A new job, new school, moving house, bereavement, breakup, whatever it is, you know, people respond differently and I respond really badly to those things. So yeah, like changing school, obviously. For me, age 11 was kind of an enormous trauma. when you just think looking back

it could have been fine but my brain just couldn't handle it so your school years were kind of challenging in that respect because I suppose it's difficult enough being a teenager and being a kid and navigating all that but then you're also having to manage

presumably you're doing a lot of masking as well were you feeling a sort of slight pressure to conform and that you couldn't really be honest about how you were feeling yeah I think I felt incredibly insecure like lots of girls do as teenagers I think that was the main feeling Actually, all the kind of OCD traits and anxiety traits that I'd had as a kid slightly went away, actually, as a teenager.

And instead, I was just left with this overwhelming sense of feeling insecure and not, you know, trying that thing about conforming. I was a huge conformist. I just wanted to, you know, have the same bag or shoes or whatever as everyone out. You know, I really wanted to kind of stay in that lane and maintain my social position kind of to the detriment of everything else, including work, studies, etc. and I just felt like I needed to maintain where I was. With your friends and your, you know, make sure. Your status within that, I suppose. Yeah.

Why do you think that was, Bella? Because I think I was a bit of a, I wasn't a weird kid, but I was, you know, a bit chubby and, you know, maybe not part of the kind of gang at primary school. I think I felt, it's silly to say, isn't it? I felt a bit like other. So at secondary school, when I had the chance to not be like that, I sort of grabbed it with both hands and was like, I am staying here.

I am going to the parties. I'm going to kiss the boys. I'm going to do all the things that I'm supposed to be doing or that I thought I had to be doing. And actually, as that kind of went on, I had quite a nice teenage life. You know, we went out a lot. I sort of, we discovered clubbing really early. You know, boys were a revelation. So actually, I had quite a nice time, you know, being a teenager and not being constrained by anxiety. I was driven by insecurity, but not anxiety, which felt better. And then I hit 18 and left school, and then it roared in again and got much worse in my 20s. So I had a nice respite.

Was there anything that incited that, do you think? Was that going to university for the first time was tough? Yeah, that was tough. I think it was change. And I think the other thing is it's just really classic for mental illness to manifest kind of between the ages of 18 and 25. Yeah, not all of them, but you know it's very common for things like anxiety and depression and OCD to kind of manifest in your late teens, early 20s and so I think I was just bang on time for it really. Hadn't dealt with it as a kid, had sort

of ignored it as a teen and then just it roared in, you know, again a moment of change when everyone's leaving and you're not, there's no, you know, you haven't got that sort of small world that you're living in anymore which is kind of school and friends and suddenly everything's bigger and people are going to different places and so I think it was kind of a one-two punch of that really. I wouldn't be able to stop laughing if I had a dog like Roe. He's hilarious. Why is Bella? Why's Bella? There she is. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you.

So yeah, and the kind of anxiety you were feeling and as you say this sort of disassociation which you continue to have and you describe. it well and I imagined I've not experienced it I don't think myself I imagined it as a sort of I don't know like the world becomes a bit like the Truman Show that's exactly what it's like yeah it's exactly like that and plus kind of an add-on where everything feels like maybe you're almost looking at it through a glass like through a window or a mirror or something everything feels kind of slightly wrong a bit too bright a bit just a bit odd I think there's kind of two versions there's that and then there's this kind of

There's the kind of version where everything else feels unreal. And then there's the version where you feel unreal. But I always felt it that everything else felt unreal. And that can take you to some really weird existential places if you're really anxious. I remember for a while I kind of, I was like, what proof is there that I'm not living in the Truman Show? So then you're trying to prove a negative in a way. You're trying to look, you know, because what you're going to do is you're going to find evidence

one way or another. So I remember months thinking, is everyone acting around me? And saying to my dad, like, are you, are you an actor? And him being like, no, babe. The reason that it's kind of separate from psychosis is because there's a bit of you that kind of deep down knows. Right.

That it's not that. But the problem with OCD is that you're constantly thinking, yeah, but what if, what if? You know, so the moment you say, well, no, rationally, I know that's not true. The OCD rules in with, yeah, but what if this? And there's always something, it's always a worse thought that OCD will throw at you.

Yeah. So it'll be, well, what if, okay, if it's not the, Truman Show, I remember this one, what if, have you ever seen Minority Report with Tom Cruise? Oh yeah. The kind of pre-crime thing where people are suspended in, they're like they're sort of, if they're sent to jail, they're suspended and kind of jelly. Yes. And just like frozen. And so my brain will be like, well, what if everyone's dead and this is a simulation? And then you're just stuck in these horrible existential thoughts that you're trying to argue your way out of and rationalise with. And obviously all that does is give you more of, you're

of those thoughts because it spikes your body with adrenaline and fear. And so your brain is thinking, well, there's something dangerous here. So it throws more and more and more. And then you're just in this kind of mental turmoil. And you don't want to explain that to someone else because how are you going to say to someone you love, oh, by the way, I just have this kind of slight thought that I might be living in a simulation or that you're an alien or that, you know, all of these mad things. And it's the same with any OCD theme. You know, there's a really common one that I've not experience that people who worry that they're paedophiles. And how on earth do you explain to your partner or, you know, your boss or whoever it is, you know, that you're in agony because you're

worried you're a paedophile? Because of course, they're going to look at you and think, what? Yeah. You know, are you a paedophile? You know, but of course you're not. But those, that's why it's so lonely and isolating because you have these kind of mad thoughts and you don't feel able to to say them to anyone because, you know, because you'll be judged. or stigmatized or not understood. So I think that's why I wrote the book in the end is because I'd had so much distance from the initial fears that I thought, no one ever says this.

When I read about anxiety or OCD, it's always to do with like turning off the light on and off five times so your parents won't die or, you know, you're worried about planes or whatever, but I've never read anything about this kind of the nasty, weird, creepy, horrible thoughts that your brain can have. So, yeah, that's why I wrote that book. And it obviously meant that you, because it was generalised anxiety disorder. Have I got that right?

Yeah, that and OCD, yeah. It meant that things like, it's just seen how the people would take for granted, like going on the tube or flying or, I mean, there were all sorts of things that were really challenging for you. Well, they weren't just challenging. You couldn't actually do them. Yeah, I didn't go on the tube for 16 years. I didn't fly for six years. Do lifts for about five years. I mean, there were loads of things.

you know, so many things that I didn't do. But you went to university. You decided to stay in London. I love again how honest you are about that, that you said, oh, I sort of convinced myself, oh yeah, you know, I'm doing it because London's nice, not be great to be in London, whereas was there a part of you, do you think that was a bit frightened about properly leaving that bosom of your family?

I think I was just frightened of that and everything else that would come with it. I mean, that's 90% of why I went to uni, in London. Yeah. And then dropped out and then went to art school and then dropped out because the OCD had gotten so bad that I couldn't even go to college. You went to get some help at that point, didn't you? Yeah, I got some help. I took antidepressants, which again, I didn't know anyone else that took antidepressants, or at least no one had told me that they took antidepressants. So I was sort of on them, but only told like a few people. And then we can go that way, all that way. Let's go that way. It's nice. You know, this is so pretty. Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it?

We're in a part of the wood and it's got a slight, like a benign Blair Witch vibe. Do you know what I mean? This bit is lovely. I think also if you ever come to, well, any park in London, but the moment you get away from the main paths, you never meet anyone. You know, there's no one ever here. So yeah, you were saying, so you got help for all of that stuff and that sort of helped. Like a sticking plaster. You know, like a sort of like, you know, my mum always said at that point that I just painted on a really small canvas.

That like everything I did was just on a very small canvas. canvas and so everything was kind of as long as it was in the parameters of how I was feeling I wouldn't have been able to get on a plane or go on a lift or whatever but I you know I could you know socialise and and work and all of those kind of things and go on dates and that was kind of my whole 20s was like a sort of up and down of sometimes it would be all right and sometimes it would be terrible and sometimes it would be all right and then I got married when I was 28 thinking like okay well this is I think I was always looking for the thing that I thought was going to like launch me into adulthood and mean that I was okay. The thing that would tell the world like, look, she's great. She's fine. She's coping. You know, that. And so getting married, I thought, great, you know, this is it.

This is the thing that's going to, you know, that you always think there's a thing that, and then there's not an after. You just think, if I can get to that point, then everything will be fine. Well, it's almost Bella, like we're served up all these shitty rom-coms, which never show us the after. Yeah, exactly. And we're brainwashed a bit. by that. Exactly. So I think I thought, don't need to worry about the after, just worry about

getting to that point. And if I can bag a man and, you know, then life is going to be great. And anxiety will be gone and everything will be fine and we'll have some kids and, you know, and that will be fine. And I hadn't thought past that. And then it all went wrong. And then that was a great thing because it meant I actually had to confront my brain in a more serious way. And I'm not sure I would have otherwise. So yeah, it was helpful to have a marriage explode and you know best thing could have happened but obviously not not at the time yeah but it's only you know my therapist who has always said that trauma is unfortunately one of the few things that will ever bring about real long-lasting change and the thing is I never know what a trauma is because

because I'm so privileged and I you know I am so lucky in like a myriad of ways and actually the only really terrible, I mean, things that I've lost people who I love and I had a divorce and I've had anxiety, but to me I'm like, are any of those, I always feel phony trying to claim some kind of trauma when actually, you know, in a kind of trauma Olympics, you know, I wouldn't qualify, you know, it feels unfair, I guess, to kind of claim trauma in a world where so many people actually have trauma, I guess. Yeah, but I think I know what you mean, but I think you can have

a traumatic response to something. You can feel traumatised. Even if in the eyes of the world, what you've experienced isn't going to go down in the history books as top ten greatest traumas, you'll never believe this. You're still allowed to feel traumatised

by an experience. Yeah, Zadia Smith wrote a really interesting thinking that she had a short sort of collection of essays during the pandemic. It was called Intimations, I think. And she had this really interesting story about the kind of pain Olympics in a way, or pain, you know, the pain chart. And she said, you know, everyone's pain is their own.

You can't compare pain. And she talks about this girl who during the first lockdown, a teenager had killed herself because she couldn't see her friends. And that there'd been just loads of online mocking this girl, like, oh, you couldn't even do like a month of not seeing your friends, you know, how shallow. And she said, but that girl's experience was her own. She had nothing to compare that to. For her, that was horrendous.

You know, her brain reacted like that, and that was a trauma for her. You know, you cannot possibly expect that 15-year-old to have experienced the same understanding of trauma as, you know, someone else. You know, and I just thought that was such a generous way of looking at it. I do as well.

Yeah, just such a kind perspective to kind of allow everyone grace to feel their own things without feeling terrible and comparing them to others. He just fell like, he just lay down on the leaves. Come on. Come on see you. I'm so sorry.

This is the worst path in the world for you. We're basically on a hike. I was actually thinking this is one of the loveliest walks I've done. But not for him though. No. He's looking at you like, please end this. Please, can we go home? I must remember this route as well.

It's just, it's a bit in between the Heath and Kenwood. So if you walk sort of past the ladies pond, then if you go into Kenwood, but you take the left instead of going straight, you end up in this beautiful maze of woodland. Yes, because we met, when I met Greg last time, we met at the ladies pond. Okay, Greg. So I'm working out where this is.

Oh, what I love is that you and Greg, similar walk, you see? Yeah, I mean, to be fair, Greg is much more the Heath person with him. I am much more the streets person with him. Yeah, you're my kind. Let's go to the local park and walk around the roads, because I want to go for a run later, so see you later. Bye-bye. And as you say, after this really tough period, it was, as you wrote about in your brilliant book, it was running that really did turn around your, well, just not, I wouldn't say your life,

but it really did change your outlook. And I understood that. I think you described it very well, just that sense that it's almost like a permanent distraction when you're running. And if you have racing thoughts as well, an intrusive thought, that's a relief, isn't it? Just half an hour? Yeah, because I think also at the time I was having panic attacks, you know, if I did anything. I remember taking my phone with me when I went to the end of the road to put something in the sort of bottle bank. And my husband at the time saying, you don't need to take your phone and taking my phone off me and being like, don't be ridiculous. And I thought, but I do need my phone because I have a panic attack if I don't have my phone.

And I mean, it makes no sense. But I was kind of in that space where I couldn't really. do very much without having a panic attack. And running, you know, I started off just doing kind of five minutes up and down in an alleyway near my house. And running, I don't know, I think it was like you've got a focus on your breathing so you can't have a panic attack or you're distracted by the fact that it's really hard and so you can't have a panic attack. And then, you know, I do five minutes, then I do six minutes, then I do 10 minutes. And, you know, I did the couch to 5K thing that, and it's amazing. It really works. Because it means,

you have to go further and further from your house. And at that point, I think I was kind of, I was slinking towards agoraphobia. I think if I'd gone on, I wouldn't have been able to leave my house because I had designated safe spaces in my brain, like work, house, you know, one other or whatever. But I think as you go on, your brain demands more, like less and less places.

Your brain is kind of, you never get to a point with anxiety where anxiety says, oh, I've had enough, you know, this is great. It always wants more. Although I have to say, You've just used a brilliant expression. I'm going to say that is going to be a potential book title, is slinking towards agoraphobia. A memoir.

A memory of heartbeat. I really would. It sounds like quite a Parisian. It does. Yeah, slinking. Yes, slinking. It's like you're doing it, but it's elegant. It makes you go further and further.

And because you're focusing on moving your legs and not falling over on all those things, your brain doesn't have time to have loads of intrusive thoughts or to have a panic attack. And once you realise that you're doing it, and you're not dying. Yeah. It gives you confidence. So then the confidence you have, you're testing it out, which is really, I mean, the way I've used running was unknowingly.

It was exposure therapy, which, you know, obviously in therapy, exposure therapy is telling you to expose yourself to your fears, bit by bit. So if you were scared of spiders, you might say the word spider until you're comfortable with that. Then you might look at a picture of a spider until that doesn't feel so awful. Then you might look at a spider far away. Yeah, you want to go down here and then to the left and you'll find it. You should see it in a minute.

All right. Thank you. No worries. Come on, banana face. Good boy. Barney's just like a really lovely, safe, loyal presence. I know that's a cliche to say that about Labrador, but there's something about him that's very reassuring. I know.

He's like a big lummox. Like there's nothing going on behind the, like in between the ears. But he is a lovely boy. Yeah, but he's got the real energy of a good friend. Yeah, he is a good friend. So yeah, so you'd see a spider and then you'd touch a spider eventually and then, you know, and then the fear is supposed to go. And the same thing I was doing with running. I was like, okay, I can go into the center of a crowd and I can, you know, run over a bridge and then I can get the tube home. And so bit by bit, it just sort of, it gave me back a life that I sort of didn't think I was going to have again, which was fantastic.

And then I went and saw a proper therapist and did a lot of CBT with him and he was amazing. and I really felt like, I really felt, oh, do you want me to carry you? Oh, come on, I'll carry my special boy. You should put a pedometer on him and a pedometer on you and just see what the difference is. Just see how many steps more you're doing than he is. You decided you wanted to be a journalist, but I get the impression you felt you'd kind of just fallen into that little bit. Yeah, I think, I mean, I love it. it and I was passionate about, I still am, about the media and media literacy and the

importance of the news, but like I say, I sort of hadn't earned that opportunity and and and also I guess, yeah, I'd fallen into it in a way that, you know, I'd been quite unthinking because I was in my 20s and being an idiot and so in my 30s I was working at another publication and then someone came to me and said, would you like to write a book about running or do you want to put a pitch together? And I thought, what? How would I do that?

I thought it was a joke and I thought this person was trolling me. And then it turned out they weren't. And I thought, oh, can I do that? And then I thought, yeah, I can do that. And then this guy said to me, he was great. He said, I just want to say, you are not interesting enough to write a whole book just about you. And he didn't mean me specifically.

He just meant, you know, you're 30 years old. Yeah. You're a sort of privileged, you know, 30-year-old woman. You know, there's nothing that's happened to you that's that interesting. And he was right. And so I kind of thought, okay, well, I'll set about treating it a bit like a journalist. I'll ask other people for their stories. I'll do a lot of fact-checking.

I'll pull studies. So I kind of did it like that. Which meant you must have realised, God, that I've had that necessary training on the job, which you don't really get anywhere but on the job. Yeah, and I think also, you know, if you're going to write a book about mental health, You have to be really, I don't think the lead thing counts if you're holding him. Do you think no? If you're holding them, I think it's okay.

Yeah, but you know, isn't it interesting? So we've just come to a sign that says, please keep dogs on lead at all times in this area. I'm so terrified of authority that I immediately went for the lead. Even though you were holding Ray. Oh yeah, that tells you a lot about me, brother. That does, yeah. You respect firemen. I mean, to be fair, I also respect firemen.

I went to put Ray's lead on and panicked. You, like Barn. don't give a shit about authorities. I do. I respect rules, but I'm not going to put him on lead at this current moment. Do you know what, Ray, sort it? I will. We're going to be like Ella. The reason being, well, firstly, that gentleman's not doing it either.

But secondly, because we're not going to walk across the green, I just thought, is it necessary? But maybe, you know, I don't want to be disrespectful. Come on, Barney, you're going on the, oh, darling. Oh, look a little trot. Oh, I've got a little trot. Come on, Ray. You're very wet still, Barney. When did you go back in water again?

Oh, I really love him, Bella. He's great. You're welcome to borrow him whenever you want. You can take him on your dog walks. If you ever need a replacement Ray for a walk, you can take Barney. Sorry, I've just been whinging about my head for the last 30 minutes, haven't I? Honestly, so self-absorbed. You've been very open and honest, which is I'm always so appreciative when someone.

is and I also like I say I found so much of what you said incredibly helpful as someone who's sort of experienced my own you know head issues over the years that's that's what's helpful is that you didn't used to be able to talk about these things yeah I think I think that is really like the change isn't it is that I do think people do feel freer yeah talk about the strange things are brains do I still think there's a sanitisation about it I still think there's a kind of the language around mental health is so often you know it's okay not to be okay or Barney okay now this is why he should be on a lead Barney there's a couple on a blanket and Barney's running towards them this is so mortifying

hey come here Barney you have let yourself down on the lead for you i think Ray's fine do you think Ray's all right yeah i think he's fine yeah i think the language around it is still quite sanitised i think there's a lot of kind of it's okay not to be okay or you know you please it's good to talk and all those things which It's not true, but because mental health facilities are just underfunded and overrun, you know, the wait list for any kind of actual help, you know, it's very difficult to say, okay, well, you should talk about it or ask for help if there isn't any help available. What good is it going to do you in some ways?

So we've moved on, but probably not as much as we should have done by now. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.