Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Bella Mackie (Part Two)

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Emily and Raymond are on Hampstead Heath with Bella Mackie and her labrador, Barney (who we can all agree is a bit of a national treasure) Bella tells us about her love story with Greg James and how a childhood obsession with Victorian true crime started her on the journey to writing her million-selling first novel How To Kill Your Family. We also chat about being direct - and whether that can be considered as a compliment and unfortunately, one of Barney’s toys meets a watery grave…Listen to Emily and Ray’s first walk with Barney (and Greg James) from September 2022 hereFollow Bella on Instagram @mackie_bellaBella’s new novel What A Way To Go is a gloriously funny and dark story about dysfunctional families in the shiny but cruel world of the extremely wealthy - you can get your copy here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Really hope you enjoy part two of Walking the Dog with Bella Mackey and Barney. If you haven't heard part one yet, do go back and give it a listen. And do also grab yourself a copy of her brilliant new book. What a way to go. Thanks so much for listening to Walking the Dog, by the way. We love having you on our walk. So do subscribe to us so you can hear us every week. I'm going to hand over now to the woman herself.

Here's Bella and Barney and Rewe. Bella, look at this dog. Oh, handsome and well-behaved. when it was called went straight back. You say that? He came in shoved his nose up Barney's ass and then ran off. Why wouldn't you? Barney has a lovely ass.

If I were a dog, I'd be right on Barney. He's the dog I'd go for. You've got a low bar. That's true. Not anymore. Not anymore. You did. You said this yourself. You did have a low bar because we are going to get onto the subject.

I want to talk to you about your love story, which I'm so invested. I'm so invested in you and Greg James. I think I might have to move in. I've heard his version of how you met and I've obviously heard you talking about it but it really feels like you sort of met him and what I meant when I said low bar was it feels like you met him and you thought oh my god this man's taking me on a proper date and oh yeah treating me like taking me to dinner were you quite surprised by that. Yeah I was completely surprised that he'd organised like an actual adult date and you know we went to see this comedy thing and then and then yeah and then he said

oh I've got dinner book around the corner if you want I thought what what are you talking about we're not just going to the pub for two hours like what um so yeah yeah no you're right I think I had um shagged a lot of frogs before Greg um because I had a nice like four years post divorce and just like dating people and you know I think that's when I had my 20s in a way because I felt very mentally the healthiest I've ever felt mentally and I felt really attractive. because I was running all the time and I was just having a nice time and then I met Greg and I was like oh okay

this is nice and yeah and kind of from date one I thought oh this is the man this is the fella for me did you yeah and then you know that early that early period when everything the alchemy is so fragile

like anything could change you know there could be just one weird thing happens and then the whole thing is just wrong and it doesn't work and so for about a month I sort of didn't breathe because I was like, oh God, is it going to go wrong? I remember he went to Japan for two weeks.

Two weeks after we've met and I thought, it's all going to be over now. Freaking out thinking, you know, he's going to come back and it's not going to have stopped the thing's going to, the momentum's going to have gone. Yeah. And then it hadn't. And then quite soon after that, I moved in and then

not long after that I proposed. And then, yeah, and then we got married. And now we've been together for seven years, over seven years. I love that you proposed. I mean, it shouldn't be, worthy of even a mention, but it is to, you know, I mean, I didn't mean to, you know, it's not like I had a ring or, I thought that weekend vaguely thought, I'd gone running in the city of London, which was near where he lived at the time. And so I was running around sort of, you know,

Bank and St Paul's and stuff, and I found this beautiful garden behind a church, this tiny little sort of cloister. And I was sort of stood there thinking, this would be such a nice place to propose to someone. And then I thought, well, I don't think Greg's going to find out on his own. So I thought maybe I could propose And then I thought maybe I should go and get a ring But the only place that was open was Argos And I thought I don't know his ring size So I can't do that

And then that night we were having dinner And he was telling me about all these plans He was doing some comic relief trek Up the sort of three highest peaks in the UK And it was beast in the east And everyone was saying that the weather was going to be the worst It had been in a hundred years And snow was going to kill everyone

And I thought oh my God he's going to die And I think I'd had like two two glasses of wine. I was slightly pissed and I thought he's going to die and I won't have told him that I think we should be together forever and I'm just his girlfriend. You know, I won't, I'll just sort of, I'll have none of the kind of officialness. I don't mean money and stuff. I mean like, I won't, I won't be acknowledged as his actual partner. We haven't been together that long. You know, you're the next of kin phone call.

Right. And I just thought, I'm going to have to grieve this man without anyone else really knowing that we were a thing. And I just felt so, I just suddenly was 100% sure he was going to die. And so I said, I think we should get married. And he said, yeah, we are going to get married at some point. I said, no, I think we should get married now. And then I burst in soon. And then we had to go outside so I could have a cigarette and calm down.

And then he said, let's not tell anyone, because obviously I'm doing this challenge this week. We'll talk about it when I get back. So I thought he was saying it was a maybe. So I remember saying to my mum that week, I said, I think me and Greg are going to get married. And she was really exciting. And then I said, but I'm not sure because he said not to tell him. anyone and she said, okay, well, come back to me if it's true because it doesn't sound like it is at the moment. So it sounds like you know that thing in the graduate and he says, I'm going to marry Elaine Robinson.

He goes, well, well, she doesn't know yet. It was a bit like that. I was like, oh, I'm not sure. And then he came back and said, no, I always thought we were going to, he said, I told a couple of people, but I just wanted to kind of, you know, the two things to overshed, one of them to overshadow the other. So I just wanted to wait and so I got back and I thought, so it was a bit of an uneasy week where I thought, I'm not 100% sure he'd agreed to that. I'm a bit annoyed with Grey for going away at that point. I mean, it was already booked in. I don't care. But, like, that's why I did it is because he was going away. And to be fair, what would we have done, like, gone to Argos and bought ring?

Like, there wasn't much to do that week, you know? We weren't planning a wedding. I know, but it's not rational. I know, no, it was fine. And, like, you know, I mean, the only thing I minded about was just not being 100% sure. I like certainty, whether or not we were, in fact, engaged or not. That just wasn't 100% clear to me. This hair is hilarious. Have you ever shaved him?

No, I cut it a bit shorter normally in the summer. He's going for his cut soon. It's just his little, because he's, I'm not sure quite what he is. I think you should, you know, I did a DNA test for him. He's definitely a mixable. Someone said there's Pekingese in there. Yeah, I think so. And he's not full Shih Tzu, definitely. No. We once, like Barney himself gets sent quite a lot of stuff.

Yeah. Not us, we don't get sent, I don't get sent anything. But Barney gets sent. No, I only get things for red. Yeah. We get sent quite a lot of Barney merch stuff. And we got sent a DNA test for him. And I was so excited because I thought, oh my God, I'm going to get to find out that Barney. Because they always say, oh, you know, don't worry. You find out that this dog you thought was a Labrador actually has a bit of Chihuahua in it and a bit of husky.

So I thought this is going to be so amazing. I got the report back. And it just said Barney is 100% Labrador. And then it showed a family tree. And the family tree was just brown Labrador's. going all the way back to the beginning of time. And it said he is 98% more inbred than all other Labradors. I was like, all right, well, that was,

I'm glad I didn't pay money for that, because that would have been 90 quid down the drain to say that he's just 100% Labrador. Right. Come on, Banana Face, let's go. And this time you can be a bit livelier because you're not holding a ball anymore. Come on, chop, chop.

Just to reset the scene, we've just been to the cafe, and we've got some coffees. Bella, I think in a first ever, paid. For the coffees, I don't think. I've done over 200 episodes, I think, of this show. Has no one ever bought you a coffee? I think that's the first time anyone has ever bought me a coffee.

To be fair, I don't think that's because people aren't generous. I think that's because you were quite insistent. I didn't. And I just sort of overruled you because I'm, you know... I really want to be liked. Well, so do I. Everyone wants to be like. Everyone's desperately desperate to be like.

Well, women. I guess men not so much. They don't care as much. They just think they are very likable. You don't strike me as someone who has that too much. Oh no, I do, dreadfully. Do you? Yeah.

The weird thing is, I don't like a lot of people. And there are lots of people who I don't care whether they like me at all. But when I really like someone, I'm desperate for them to like me. I sort of love bomb them. I'm sort of, you know, I really, really want them to like me. And there are people, and it's so embarrassing as an adult. You're like, you feel like you're 11 again. You're like, oh, God, this is so embarrassing.

I had a therapist once that told me a great phrase that I, you know, one of those things that you think about all the time. And she said, within everyone, you have a parliament of selves. And I thought, what do you mean? And she said, imagine a, you know, a big room full of people, a parliament, for example. And in there is your seven-year-old self, your 11-year-old self, your 15-year-old self, your 18-year-old self, your 20-year-old self. And so how you react to things is not you, Emily, aged, whatever.

Yeah. You'll react to different things as you were. at 17. So if you're embarrassed or ashamed of something, it might be you at 17. If you're angry, it might be you at 8. I think trying to impress someone as an adult makes me feel like an 11-year-old again. But I think it's such an interesting way of handling other people as well, is to think if someone's angry or upset or, you know, whatever it is, and you think, okay, I can see you are being you aged 15, you know, in the way that you're handling this. And I think it's very helpful to understand

other people and yourself to think you are not you at 41, you are you of a million different ages and stages and the way you cope with things is not you're not just this fully formed one thing. And I don't like the word inner child, but you know there are

many sort of ages inside you handling how they react to things. Where's my dog? Barney! Oh, he's under the trees. Does Ray get a lot of attention like that? Bonnie's going to go over there now and bark at them. Raymond, hello. Come on, Barney.

Bonnie, come here. Raymond's just met his fans. I know, and he really was to the man of born, wasn't he? It's like being out with Greg. When I had my pug, because he was such a cute puppy, because he was such a cute puppy, he would just get accosted by people in the street all the time. And when he was older, he was a bit sort of lumpy and not as cute,

but he would still stop in the street every time someone passed him because he thought they'd want to pet him. It was heartbreaking. Luckily, Ray won't have that because he's long hair, so it'll disguise the kind of aged lumps. Oh, I look forward to the aged lump, Bella. Barney, where are you going? You're quite blunt, Bella. Do you think you are? Yeah. I quite like it. You said something which I really loved when you were talking once about your relationship with Greg,

And what I mean by the bluntness is I think you're, you stroke me as quite a frank talker because you said, well, I knew he was on the radio and he was famous and I thought other people might be interested. So I thought I better lock it down. That's true, right? Well, yeah, because, you know, he was two and a half years younger than me. He's handsome. I thought, a hundred people are going to be trying this. I mean, not that marriage necessarily locks it down. My first husband ran away like within nine months.

But, you know, well, I wasn't getting any younger and I just thought, oh God, you know. There'll be a million, you know, yoga influences online who'd like to go out with Greg. It's true, though, isn't it? I always say if we get divorced, I'm not moving out of our house. And I said, if you want to bring your 25-year-old yoga girlfriend to live with us, waf-waf-wwwwaf-wack. What, you'll stay in the house? Yeah, I said, I'll live above you.

And when you're having really hot sex, I'll just bang on the floor with a broom to sort of tell you to shut up. And I said, that'll be your choice. that I'll be what you'll have to do. I'll be like Miss Havisham upstairs, wearing my old wedding dress. Actually, you know, I sold my old wedding dress. But, you know, and he'll just have to deal with it, and that'll be, you know, it'll make it very hard

for the second Mrs. James. What was it like when you first introduced Greg to mum and dad? I was living across the road from them. Hadn't moved too far, literally across the road. I could wave into my dad's study. And I didn't know how to broach that with him. because I was like, he's going to think that's really weird.

Because he'd been around to my flat a million times, but I hadn't said, by the way, my parents are across the road. What, you hadn't told him? No. I thought it would be weird. It is weird. People used to take the piss out of me all the time. So what happened? So then your dad walked out and went bail on. Just ignore him. He's a bit of any local eccentric. It luckily didn't happen.

And then at some point, we were in my flat. And I said, oh, I'm going to go see my parents this afternoon. And he said, oh, I'd love to come with you. And I thought, really? He said, yeah, I'd love to meet them. It'll be really nice. And so I thought, okay, I said, well, they live across the road. And I think he thought I meant, like, you know, down the road.

Yeah. And I did not mean down the road. And he came with me and didn't, I mean, I'm sure he did think it was weird, but he didn't say anything. So it was like another test passed. And my dad loves him, like the son that he wished he'd had. Like, they play cricket and, you know, watch golf or whatever. I think Greg is very good son-in-law material. But then I think you're also very good daughter-in-law material.

Yeah, I think I'm kind of. moody and difficult, whereas he's, you know, he's sort of cheery and sunshine. I think, you know, he's just, he's quite a golden boy, Greg. And I'm not, I'm not a golden boy or girl. I'm just sort of slightly anxious and an introvert and, you know, want to sit in the corner. But it sounds like he's very good at knowing how to just be when you're finding the world a bit challenging. Yeah, I think he's learned over time, right? And also I sort of sold him, I sold him like a used bill of goods, or like a bad bill of goods, because I told him that like, I was like, oh yeah, I used to be really anxious, but I'm amazing now and like, look how cool I am, I'm so sorted.

And then the pandemic happened and I basically like screamed into a void for like four years and got really anxious again. And he was like, oh, this is not what I thought when you said that you'd like sorted your anxiety out. What the hell is happening? Why are you sitting on the couch like in a ball looking like? like a hundred years old. So it sort of, it sort of sadly went wrong for him when he realised that actually it was not fixed. So he has had to kind of learn, learn on the job.

You mentioned the pandemic. That's when you wrote your first fiction book. Yeah, it is. So your book, How to Kill Your Family, which sold over a million copies. Yeah. And I loved it. I'm sure the vast majority of people listening to this podcast are. have read it or at least familiar with it.

Or they might know of it but don't want to read it. Well, I kind of didn't know what to expect. And I thought, oh, this is a book. I really like Bellamaki. And I like Jogon and like, keep seeing this book everyone. I'm really intrigued. And honestly, I mean, I'm obviously not the first to say this. But I think what was so brilliant about it was that she,

this sort of anti-heroing figure, you were rooting for a murderess, essentially, which was a serial killer. Yeah. And it was interesting how people saw parallels with sort of killing Eve and Villanelle, didn't they? And this idea that actually, yeah. That's quite, I think that's always a positive thing. I mean, I appreciate you were writing what, I'm assuming what you wanted to write was a brilliant thriller. You weren't writing a feminist man manifesto, but it's quite lovely that that was, I felt you could read that book on two levels in some ways.

Yeah, I definitely, I think, I mean, I definitely wasn't the first to write a kind of funny female rage type. book, you know, there's been loads of examples of that in history of kind of brilliant, angry women, you know, doing bad things. But I think, I don't think I necessarily set out to do that. I wanted to write a funny thriller, I guess, if there is such a thing. I wanted to write something funny with murder. And I guess because I wrote her, the main character in the first person, I sort of shaped her, sort of, I guess loosely there are things in there that I've thought or, you know, I wanted to make her sort of unapologetic and and sort of the kind of woman that can just say

and do whatever she wants without feeling bad about it, which I think all women would like to do. So basically how meant her. Yeah, and how women would really like to be. It's just that we're so sort of scared of saying the wrong thing or not being likable or all those things. And so, so yeah, she kind of, I just wrote her really easily and I didn't realize what I didn't,

you know, it's funny when you write a book and I'm sure you had it with yours. that once it's out there in the world and people have their own reactions to things that you've written or, you know, they take things that you've written in ways that you hadn't thought about. And I was really surprised that people liked her. I didn't think people would like her and I didn't think I'd get so many messages saying, oh my God, I can't believe I like a serial killer. This is so weird. And I always think, well, you don't like a serial killer. You like the fact that she does whatever she wants. That's what you like. Yeah. And the murder is not. People responded to promising young woman or, you know, it's. Paul Villanelle. You know, all of those women are, it's not because they're murdering people. It's because they're angry and righteous and unapologetic about it. And that's the thing that women like, because men don't read my book.

An incredibly well-educated smart man once said to me, I can't remember what I was reading, but, you know. And it was a female writer who said, oh, what's that like? I don't really read books by women. And I was so staking about it. I said, well, this is a smart man with two degrees, you know. And I said, what do you mean you don't read books by women? He said, well, I just wouldn't ever pick a book by that a woman had written up.

I mean, good on him for having the self-awareness, because I think a lot of men wouldn't even think about that. Yeah. But, I mean, the vast majority of fiction readers are women. You know, the book market is kind of geared towards women because men don't read fiction at the rates that women do. If they buy books, it's usually non-fiction. Yes, they like non-fiction.

Yeah, books about war. silhouettes of St. Petersburg on the front. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess like... Or ancient swords. Yeah, Russian spy thrillers. That's right.

I always had another question I always have for people. Maybe you can answer this. I say, I think you can tell a lot about people who say, what book did your dad read on the beach? My dad would read... Political books, maybe. Political or journalism books. Yeah.

My mom would read fiction. My mom is a voracious, incredible reader. She reads like three or four books a week. They're still together your parents, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, they're still together, yeah. Oh, I quite love them. I know, I guess it's not, it's not common at 41 to have your parents together all, both still alive. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm lucky in that respect. But yeah, so I guess I, but they read to me a lot, so I always loved books. I always loved reading. I read voraciously myself as a kid. You know, I was kind of a bit of a precocious reader. I remember I was reading Middle March at 10 and stuff. And you think, okay, you could have done a bit more, you know, sweet Valley. high or whatever. Come on bun. But your dad also used to play you because you obviously crime is a big

theme in your books and we're going to get onto your latest book which I absolutely love. What a way to go. Didn't he he sort of slightly encouraged your interest in crime at quite a young age? Oh yeah because I think when he in his early court in his early reporting days he did court reporting. And so he covered murder trials a bit when he was in his 20s and I think he's always had an interest in crime he was really interested in Victorian murders the sort of brides in the bath and the you know Dr. Crippin and all of that kind of those kind of murders so he used to read me the stories about those murders so the Victorian murders which I think he probably thought were maybe slightly less gruesome or

there were long enough go in the past that I wouldn't have nightmares and I loved them and then he bought me a subscription to a true crime magazine back in the do you remember when you used to get a magazine subscription and then you'd put it in a binder once a month from the news agent so he bought me that but that was kind of modern ones so i was reading about um what was that guy called jeremy bamford killing his family and from west and jeremy bamber that's it bamford is yeah you're right was Jeremy bamber what that series the white horse yes was based on yeah and Bamford is the woman that owns dalesford and has all of those toys and i don't think for legal reasons she would not like that um so i was absurd

with crime and murder and I read as much as I could about it. And then I read a lot of crime fiction in my 20s. And then I think, I guess on the cusp of the true crime sort of wave of podcasts and documentaries and all that kind of stuff, I slightly fell out of love with it because I thought, actually, this is quite, there are two things. Firstly, I thought, it's always dead women and heroic detective fiction, you know, heroic detectives, handsome, troubled detectives. Yeah. But dead women.

And I thought that's kind of grim and traumatic. And then the true crime stuff, I thought, again, really exploitative, that we were sort of watching things about dead people for thrills. And someone actually messaged me on Instagram a while ago saying that she, her sister had been murdered and that she couldn't ever watch true crime because she once was in the fitting rooms at Topshop, I think, and she heard girls next door in the fitting room next door discussing her sister's murder, as if it was entertainment.

Like, you know, coming up with theories about who was. who was the killer. And that just put it into such a new perspective for me that actually, you know, these families are not asked if they want to be involved with, you know, with this kind of horrible discussion about their loved ones murder. So I kind of stopped watching all of that stuff, but I knew I always wanted to write something crimey. But I thought if I write funny crime, that doesn't traumatize anyone or upset anyone because it's just funny. so the way in which people die is kind of slightly surreal and campy and unrealistic

deliberately because I don't want to write actual thrillers that are sort of sad or you know yes I get it and that brings us neatly onto your brilliant new book what a way to go it's so brilliant because it's a bit of succession meets saltburn with also a bit of Agatha Christie thrown in which I love Agatha Christie is my favourite.

Oh really? And I think why I love it is that, and I think you're right, when you're writing about potentially quite grisly subject, I think the reason that her books work, or I find them palatable and I enjoy them, is for the same reason I enjoy yours, which is there's this sort of charm and elegance and lightness to the way you write, which makes,

it sort of cancels out the subject matter. It doesn't cancel it out, means it never feels like it's falling into one of those novels with a dagger and a blood pool. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think for me, the crime is interesting because of what it makes the people around it do. Yeah. You know, so it's about how it changes the dynamics between people and especially I always write about horrible people. So it's, you know, how much more horrible it makes everyone. It's not, it's not in a way for the sake of the crime itself. Yeah.

Which, you know, I find it fun to do that, but it's, it's kind of, that's not my main sort of interest, I guess. My main interest is kind of horrible people being horrible to each other and, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, kind of, old-fashioned morality, I guess, of, like, you know. Oh, did they? Whereabouts? Did you?

Do you know? Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much. I mean, the nice thing about having a dog like Ray is that pretty. you don't get the absolute mammoth shit that Barney does. Well, you don't get the poos. Sometimes what you get with these bigger dogs, it is like a six-foot-five man has done a poo.

I mean, yeah, that's Barney six times a day. Six times a day. Whereas Ray does little rabbit pellets. Yeah, I would, I mean, again, this is not the dog I wanted. This is the dog that I got. So this book is, it centres, as you say, around this hideous family. Yeah. And when I say hideous, morally hideous.

Oh no. Go on, you think he's cute. He's grown on you. To be fair, I also would not have a dog like that. My dog, the real dog over here. Yeah. Well, never mind me, this is my dog and I'm being shamed. Come on, Ray.

Ray, don't listen to them. You're doing so well, buddy. Bonnie. Would you like a dog like Ray? Oh, would you like a dog like Barney? Oh, neither. Oh, okay, well, we can't even please, we can't please anyone in this situation.

We're both losers. At least we're both losers. Lovely to meet you. Do you know what? He's gonna go far. That was so funny. He said, would you like a dog like that, Mom?

And she went, well, I don't want to be offensive to the dog. Do you know what, Bella? That's very telling the way that boy answered that. I'm really hopeful that he's gonna be all right. He'll be a politician. Well, it's the fact that he had the confidence at that age. Yeah, to say I don't want either of these dogs. I don't know about you, but I felt I was groomed,

and not necessarily by my parents, just by society in general, to so please people, I would never at that age have had the confidence to say something different. If there were two adults there with dogs, I'd say, oh, I love both of yours. I think I'd like a lab, but I'd think which adult looks like they'd be more upset with me. And it was me, because I was looking at him very intently.

You were looking intently. Yeah, I would... I'd be competitive. Yeah, and I got shafted for it, and I deserved it. Yeah. So this book, as we say, centres around this. He's sort of an amoral financier. I saw a lot of parallels with Bernie Madoff.

Yeah, he was definitely someone I was thinking about. The other person I was thinking about was Robert Maxwell. Yes. Yeah. And the family. And it's done from the point of view of three characters, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to give too much away, but I think we start.

Are we allowed to say he doesn't? dies very early on. He dies very early on, so I don't think it's a spoiler. He dies and the rest of the book is almost, you know, you're spent, there's that who-done it element to it. But it's also why done it and also who are these people? What drives them? You're so brilliant at character.

And I think with any writing, you start to realise the more books you read, that's sort of everything. I don't know. I think there are two schools of thought, right? I think there's the plot is everything, you know, people, and then there's the character as everything people. And there are very few incredible writers who do both and where you're just, you can't believe that they could write.

I'm thinking of someone like Hillary Mantell, where you think of something like Wolf Hall, for me, where I'm thinking, this has got plot and character and the most beautiful writing. But I think I am definitely more interested in character. I'm quite a lax plotter. So I think I get myself in trouble. I get bogged down because I'm trying to write my way out or into things because I haven't plotted as well as I should have done to begin with

because my main thing is I'm just so interested in people. And so that's what I want to spend all my time on. And that wouldn't actually be very interesting, you know, just to have done a character study of these three people without having something else going on. So I always think there's, you know, there's people that love character, people that love plot, but not very many people that are very good at both. and I'm definitely still learning about plot.

I think you can sort of analyze it all you want, but as someone who's read it, I could not put it down. And that isn't just to do with character. Do you know what I mean? Because I wouldn't read a 370 page character study. So that is to do with the plot, isn't it? And I also think I'm fascinated by your interest in class and those brilliant subtleties.

It's so well observed. They're a particular type of family, aren't they? Is that something, was that an area you were always keen to sort of examine? And what was your thinking behind them when you started writing it? I think I've always been so interested in the class structure and system in this country. And I think it is so unique to this country. You know, I just think it's, it's still got everyone in such a chokehold. You know, and it's this weird, invisible thing that people sort of inherently understand and know about

without ever really having been taught about a class structural system. You know, it doesn't exist and yet it does exist. And, you know, I have a friend who grew up somewhere else, but she's lived in this country for 15 years. She said even now it terrifies her this weird thing that everyone, if you say the word settee instead of sofa or whatever, that people understand, they make assumptions about someone because of those things. And she said that just, it was not in any way something she'd understood

before she came to this country. It did not happen where she grew up. And so I find the fact that we're in 2024 and still that kind of system exists doesn't look like it's going anywhere anytime soon. And what's weird is that you think, I like to think, well, I'm from a different generation, but I realise stuff that my mother said to me

like holds a knife like pen, which is awful, but I'm really a conscious of people's table manners. So if someone holds a knife like, I have to stop myself and think, know, that's some weird old 50s thing of my mothers. Yeah. Why am I sort of inwardly judging that person because they're not holding their knife? But equally, there'll be modern versions of that now, right?

Like, there will be certain cars that you will see on a motorway that you'll think, I have a good idea who drives that car, that car, that, why? Like, why do you have a good idea about the type or class of person that might drive a car? But weirdly, in this country, people find it quite hard. And I don't mean this in a financial way. I mean in the sort of weird old-fashioned class hierarchy of like even if you have a lot of money I found it really interesting with the

you know the Victorian David Beckham documentary Yes You know the viral meme bit where he says You know what car did you drive to Scotland She says I was very working class You know blah blah And then it turns out there was a Royal Royal Royal Royal Royalist And I've done you know people were saying

Well yeah of course you was posh And you think well actually her parents did really well They made a lot of money And so they should you'd think in a normal society that it would in some way equate that having money would mean that they were some kind of they were upper class or whatever or really posh but they're not because in this country you're not allowed to move classes in some way so class doesn't actually correlate with money in lots of times it does I mean lots of ways it does and lots of times it does but lots of times it doesn't because you can have an incredibly posh person who somehow doesn't have any money because you know no one in their family ever worked and they spent it all or you can have a kind of you know incredibly rich working class person and so... What are those dogs? I think they're corgis.

Oh look but they're black and white. Yeah, I don't... Have you ever seen? They're not black and white corgi. They're extraordinary. They're very cute. They're lovely. They sort of look like squashed...

Yes. They do. She looks happy though. She does, but honestly, I sort of feel like, again... It's a bit like with cars on the motorway, you can sort of guess who owns what dog. And that's not who I... Those are not the dogs I thought that lady would have. I thought that lady would have.

I thought she'd have like a whip it. Yes, no nonsense. Yeah. Whereas I look at Greg and I think Barney's exactly the kind of dog that Greg should have. Oh my God, he's so Labrador. Yeah, he's such a Labrador. Yeah, it makes complete sense. So yeah, I think that's always really interesting.

And I think when I was writing this book, I guess I had been influenced by things like Succession. I think there is a real trend at the moment of people being interested in rich people doing terrible things. I mean, not that I think there always was. But I think people are fascinated by their. that idea of dynasty and sort of intergenerational family, wealth and all of that kind of stuff. And again, I think there's just rich pickings in rich people doing horrible things to each other. To each other, not to other people, by the way.

That's kind of important. It's a real example, I think, this book, of how you can dislike the vast majority of characters, but still find them oddly compelling. In fact, they are more compelling because of that, you know. And there's a character, we should say the three perspectives. There's the now deceased financier. And then you see it from the perspective. And I think she was my favourite perspective of this icy blonde, very well-preserved matriarch.

Yeah, his wife. Frankly hideous, snore. Yeah. But sort of oddly sympathetic, because I sort of... I know, do you think what I'm doing with these books is, I'm actually just writing terrible people sympathetically. No, I think what you do is realise I felt, the reason I felt sorry for her is I thought, well, she was doing the best with the system. She's based kind of loosely on Lord Lucan's wife.

Ah, yes, I see that. Who I always found such a fascinating character because, you know, she'd married Lord Lucan when he, you know, when she was much younger, you know, she was in, I think she might have been like 1920. Yes, and the kid, yes, you're right, because I saw this fascinating doctor. You mentioned the kids don't speak to her. The kids didn't speak. She killed herself in the end at like age of 80 or something. But yeah, her kids didn't speak to her and she was obviously a very unhappy, angry woman in her older age. You know, but her husband was super upper class, you know, appalling sort of an appalling waste all over human being.

And she'd married him and had no power and, you know, he treated her appallingly badly and then tried to kill her, you know. And yet there was sort of no simply, weirdly, oddly no sympathy for her. strangely, especially from his friends who kind of closed rounds. Why did the kids speak to her again? I think there was intimations that she was quite a terrible mother. Right. Well, he wasn't a great father. No, no, he was not. But I always

found her character so interesting that she'd had to deal with this terrible man and what this terrible man had done and actually the only person that had really impacted was her not, I mean, and also of course his victim. But as in living person, the person that was alive left to pick up the pieces of that was her. And he became a sort of legend in a way. You know, people still talk about Lord Lucan as this kind of fascinating mystery, whereas no one ever talks about Sandra Rivett than Annie or Lady Lucan, you know,

or his children, I guess. There's a bit where you see where Anthony goes, where the deceased person ends up, is all I'll say. Yeah. We're still able to see it from his perspective. Yeah. And where he goes, it's the most brilliant depiction of the afterlife. I think I've never read. In that it's very Kafkaesque. Sounds really pretentious, but, you know, I did. I felt it was like, I thought, oh God, yeah, it's just bureaucracy. And it's really drab and a bit depressing. Yeah, writing the afterlife was my favourite bit of all the bit. I felt like, actually, once I'd really got into that, I felt like I could have written a whole book just set in the afterlife because I enjoyed it so much, just because I think, you know, none of us know what happens

when we die. I mean, some people obviously are very certain about, you know, heaven or hell or whatever, but most people are sort of slightly unsure or think nothing. But that's why it's kind of so fun because you think, well, I can make this anything. And it doesn't have to be the thing you're taught in school or in church or in, you know, mosque or whatever. It can be, it can be anything I want it to be. And for it to end up being the most boring bureaucratic place, you know, that this man has ever encountered. For me, was just so fun to write. Yeah.

And that's the joy of fiction, is that you realize, I mean, that was the difference between writing joggon and then how to kill your family, was realising that you don't have to reference anything, you don't have to fact-check anything, you don't have to be truthful or careful or, you know, or considerate of sources. You can just make things up. And I know that sounds really obvious, but it's such a nice thing to think, okay, well, how am I going to write myself out of this and what's going to happen here? And then you think, oh, yeah, I can just say whatever I like. And that's just such a fun thing to be able to do as an adult.

You're just making things up. It can be quite daunting to make that shift, especially when you've got a journalism background, you know, and you've specialised in writing fact and non-fiction, and then to suddenly shift over to fiction where the possibilities are endless and you don't have any boundaries, you know, does that feel quite daunting? And is that something you have to almost psych yourself up for? Because I know you have quite a writing style, which I love, which is you don't do the, get up at nine, finish the day at five, do you?

No, no, no, I don't. I mean, I write very sporadically at weird times and quite often in the evenings and quite often with a glass of wine and I don't treat it in a kind of office hours way. But no, I didn't find it daunting. I just thought this is the biggest privilege I'll ever have and I've had a life full of many privileges. But I thought this is going to be the best one is that someone is going to let me write a non, write a fiction book. And all because I'd written a nonfiction book and I thought, okay, this is my chance to say to them, look, it did kind of well. Please can you let me write a fiction book? And two publishers said no. And then Borough said yes. I think that's really important that you said that because I think people don't realise that even successful million selling authors hear the word no sometimes. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess, you know, it wasn't that.

I only got paid, I got paid £5,000 to write jog on. And, well, no, but I think it's important to say because, you know, a book advance for someone who's not well known or is not established is, is not enough for you to not have a day job. You know, you have to have another job at the same time. or you have to be independently wealthy. So being a writer is not actually a job that's economically viable for most people because the advances are not huge and most often authors will not earn huge royalties.

So I do think it's important to say that. And, you know, so when I was writing How to Care Your Family, I had rejections and then I got paid $25,000 to write How to Care Your Family. And I could take that as a year's salary so I could write it. And I was lucky enough that I had Greg so I didn't, you know,

I wasn't worried about it. But financially... A roof over your hair. Yeah, again, so it was like a massive, you know, privilege. But, yeah, no, I just felt so lucky that I was going to get that chance because I'd always thought I'd like to write a book one day, a fiction book. And so to have the opportunity to do it, I wasn't daunted. I just thought, this is a...

Like, who in their lifetime gets the opportunity to write a novel? Like, what an incredible thing to be able to be offered the chance to do. I mean, I didn't know if it was going to do well or not, but I was just excited to be able to do it. Bonnie's going back in the... Bonnie's going in. Ray's like, I'm not even going to stand near. Where's it gone?

Oh, Ray, look. Oh no, did it sink? Bunny! Who threw it in? Badly you threw it in. I didn't... I thought it was a floaty one. Oh my God, it sunk. What have you done?

I bought it thinking it was a flotation frisbee. I didn't realize that it was a... sinking Frisbee. That was its first outing. Bonnie's a wonderful swimmer. Oh, he's a fantastic swimmer. He's so elegant. He could have been in the Olympics. Barney! You do sound very like one of those madmen wives. He's a wonderful swimmer. He could have been in the Olympics.

I sound like one of those delusional mothers of sons where I'm like, he's just wonderful at everything he does. He's so handsome. Look how handsome he is. Look how gracious. No, Barney, you're not to go over the edge. No. Don't you dare? Good boy, Barney. He's still looking for it. it he's like I don't understand where it's gone come on let's keep walking we're gonna go now bye come on bye barney bye barn you're very direct quite no nonsense person i don't know whether you're saying it's and i don't know whether you're saying it as an insult or not it's quite a compliment

for me i hope it's a compliment yeah it's not it's not everyone's taste though is it do you think you are yeah probably yeah no i am where does that come from i think it's i think it's oh i don't know I think probably it's partly my personality and I've always been sort of slightly maybe too open to the point where sometimes I can be offensive without realising it. But I think also it's I never mean to be, but I think, oh you've lost the ball. Oh well, it wasn't his ball to begin with. I think also it's it is probably a thing of having anxiety and then deciding to be open about it and then just deciding to be open about everything because I do think it's better to be direct or honest about stuff than than to sort of do the English thing of skirting around it or, you know. I just think you feel quite, I trust direct people. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Once you're honest about one thing, I feel there's not a load of shit hidden away in the cupboards because Foxton's are coming around to view the properties. I mean, I know what I'm getting. Why do the estate agents always call it a property? we'd love to have a look at your ex-roar property your beautiful property I get a phone call every month from foxton saying any thoughts on selling your wonderful property and I was like no one ever said I'm just going home to my property make it sound like down to now yeah like would you like to come to my property for dinner

no one's ever said that yeah I don't know I mean it's again I say like it's not for everyone and I like I guess sometimes it comes it does come across as blunt rather than direct I don't mean it to be blunt I think I'm just being honest right or open like if you ask me a question i'll i'll tell you the truth but maybe there is that's quite rare bella and that's why i like it but maybe there is a kind of overshare to it which is you know i will tell people things that maybe i shouldn't tell them because i'm like i don't want to have secrets from people that i like i guess and i find it really i find it really stymying when there are sadnesses or thoughts or worries or whatever that that you have in your own head that you're not telling someone else and i always feel like if you tell them

someone else. Maybe that's just me trauma dumping on other people though. Maybe that's just me being like, take all of my things. But I also want people to tell me their things. You know, it's not just, I really want, maybe that's me being nosy. Maybe this is just trauma dumping and nosiness and it's just a really horrible combination.

Do you know what? I might call my podcast trauma dumping and nosiness. I think that's a really good rebrand for when you retire away so that he just sits in the nail spa while you're taking out another dog for hire that you can just rebrand well you know what i absolutely love your book and i don't need to encourage people to buy it because no you do everybody buys your book do you still even though you're hugely successful million plus selling author do you still get the fear yes do you yeah because i'm not

robert harris i'm not someone with a long established history of books so it's not i haven't proved myself in a longevity way so i've had one book that's done astronomically well, that's it. My first book did well, but it wasn't like, you know, blowing your brain off. And this one, of course, all I think, all I thought the whole time I'm writing it, is it's not as good as the last one. No one's going to like it. I'm going to flop.

No one's going to want to buy my third one. You know, I was a one-hit wonder, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, of course. Like, maybe that goes away once you've sold 25 million coffees of a book. But, well, I love the fact that you are honest as well about how you write, because I always feel whenever people say Oh, I start at 9 and I finish at 5 And I think, oh my God, I couldn't do that.

I'd feel like an accountant or something. I have to feel like some sort of mad Dylan Thomas figure Up till 2 in the morning, you know. Well, I think also, I mean, I'm sure there are people that can write like that. And, you know, I guess it depends on your style. But I guess in order to come up with ideas, you have to kind of let your brain sort of almost do free association.

You know, you have to let it percolate and do a bunch of different. things and not think about it in order to kind of... weirdly, the ideas I get for stuff always come up, you know, maybe it's after two days of me doing something completely different and then, you know, or reading something and I think sitting down and forcing yourself to do something is quite hard creatively. See, that is the dog I wanted to get at Batsy.

She was called Mary, she was a small grey staffy. Is that a stuffy? She's absolutely gorgeous. She's so sweet. Oh, he, he's so lovely. Lovely dog. Gorgeous dog. Gorgeous dog. See, that's what I wanted. And every time I see one, I get this pang of sadness and jealousy that other people have them.

Oh, look, Bella Barley's right here. Listen, we have spent, like, at the price of a small car getting his legs fixed, I have sat up with him while he's been in a crate because he can't leave the crate for six weeks after several operations, and at some point his other legs are going to go, and basically all we do is rehab, like, our stupid dog, who then goes and, like, injures himself again. I love him dearly, but, as I've said,

that's definitely Greg's pick. And I say this, because I'm competitive, and at some point when he dies, I'll want another one, and it will be my pick, and I have to keep reminding everyone of this. When my last dog died, that's kind of when I realised how much I love Barney was realising

that he did have a kind of purpose because before that I'd been like, you're just this idiotic goof who needs four hours of walking a day. And when she died, it just wasn't a stingy because... So I do think there is a really...

And also, the other thing that happens is that it can really liven up an older dog to get a second one. I don't like what you're hinting at, though. Sorry, again, It's me sounding too blunt I don't mean it like that

I just mean like it might give him like some real joy to like play with a friend sorry Ray I'm sorry Barney You're so cute

So we've come to the end of our walk Bella I've loved our walk with you today I've loved our walk too Have you? Have you? Have you? Fantastic and Ray is hilarious

Maybe I'll give Barney a treat before he goes Do you think he's had too much No no give him a treat Let's give you one more treat, Barney. And Bella, thank you, and do give our mine and Ray's best to Grey. I will. And tell him, you can tell him, Barney actually behaved really well today.

Do you think it was better this time round? I tell you how I would describe it. I remember seeing a documentary once where Madonna was given an artwork, a piece of someone's art, and she looked at it and they framed and gave it to her, and she went, it's really not bad bad at all. And that's what I would say. Barney's really He's a terrible piece of art

that Madonna sort of damned with faint praise Yeah he's really not that bad at all Byrne That's probably the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Barney He's the most lovely Barney sit He sat then he got up I get frightened

Barney I'll give you one more But you must promise not to bite me He's not a biter But he's not going to bite Do it like that flat hands Oh yeah Yeah Oh Bonnie

Do you like The end of the end of this podcast can't be me going, ah, Barney. I think that's perfect. Bella, thank you so much. Can we give you a hug? Yes, thank you so much for having me. That was so lovely. I have such a nice walk. Well, you're one of my favourite writers. I can tell you this now at the end, because I didn't want to freak you out and be a bit misery and say that at the beginning. But you really are one of my favourite writers. And I love this book so much. Thank you. It's so nice to hear that because it was definitely a labour of like insecurity and thinking it was.

going to be the worst thing in the world. Barney. He's just said it all for me. Said it. You know, you were saying you wanted to lock Greg James down because he's, you know, he's on the radio, he's popular. I think he did well to lock you, Dan. Thank you very much.

I'll tell him that. Can you say goodbye to Raymond? Bye, bye, bye, Barney. Bye, Bella. Bye, bye, bye, Raymond. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. and do join us next time on Walking the Dog

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