Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Bryony Gordon (Part One)

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

It’s a rainy day in Battersea - so join Emily and Ray as we get cosy on Bryony Gordon’s sofa! Byrony is journalist, broadcaster, podcaster and bestselling author. She doesn’t have a dog - but we’ll forgive her because she let Raymond sit on her very fabulous tassled blanket. Our chat covers everything from Bryony’s legendary childhood dog Polo, to her stuggle with OCD and how she has learned to understand her intrustive thoughts. You can listen to Bryony’s brilliant podcast The Life of Bryony on all podcast platforms!Bryony’s brilliant books - including Mad Woman, Mad Girl, The Wrong Knicker and Glorious Rock Bottom - are all available to purchase here! Follow Bryony on Instagram @bryonygordonYou can subscribe to Bryony’s monthly newsletter here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And we've all had those intrusive thoughts, like, what if I was to pick Ray up and throw them on the floor or a baby? I'm not going to do that, by the way. Most of us, you know, all like... This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I met up with best-selling author, journalist and podcaster, Brianie Gordon. We'd plan to walk on On Onesworth Common, but the rain was wreaking havoc on Ray's hairdo. So Brianie very kindly suggested we go back to hers and chat. over a nice cup of tea, she even laid out a special knitted blanket for Ray to lie on. Adorable. I've actually known Briney ever since she was a young journalist at The Telegraph,

and she's since gone on to become a hugely successful author, who's written very honestly about her life experiences in books like Mad Girl, Eat, Drink, Run, and glorious rock bottom. And she's also become a very high-profile mental health campaigner who memorably did a game-changing interview with Prince Harry, where he talked candidly for the first time really about his own mental health challenges. Brieney, by the way, recently launched a brand new podcast called Life of Brieney, genius name, where she has really intimate chats with guests, bringing into the light things we're usually encouraged to hide in the dark. So it's a really life-affirming and wonderful listen.

All in all, Briny is a joy to spend time with, partly because she's so unfailingly honest and warm. and even though she currently doesn't have a dog, she does now have one dog who is desperately angling to leave me and move in with her immediately. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Briney. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the wonderful woman herself.

Here's Briney and Ray Ray. Brianie, what do you think of Ray? Oh my God, Ray is, I want to marry Ray. What kind of dog is Ray? Other than an excellent dog. He's an imperial shih Tzu. He's imperial indeed. I do sound very high since Buké when I said it.

He's an imperial. He's like the dark Vader of Shih Tzu's. He's really taken to you. I really, it's because I'm wearing a coach that looks a little bit like perhaps an ancestor. I think, I don't agree with that. I think it's because you have an empathetic energy and he likes that. Well, I like him.

He's, he's making me very relaxed. He's making me want to get a dog. I wish I had a dog to bring, but my husband won't let us get one. By the end of this, that's all going to change. Right, so we've let up in your manner, which is, is this Battersea? It's kind of Ash Clappin. Yeah, it's, it's, I'd say it's Battersy,

it's Clapham Junction, but, but officially Battersea. It's very glamorous. Well, we've come to a Gales, and this looks, I'm imagining a lot of the Lily Lemon leggings on the way back from Jim. There is a Swecy Betty right there. It's very strange, you know, there's a lot of estate agents, which isn't so strange, but there's also a lot of opticians.

There's four or five premium opticians. I don't know why. I think there might just be like a lot of people with very bad eyesight on this road. And I guess if you miss one because you can't see, you might stumble across another. And I don't go to any of them. I go to spec savers. Do you know what? That's why I love you, Brian and Gordon.

Right. So because it's a bit rainy, yeah. We're going to abandon the park. Do you think? abandon it and go to my house. So I mean, with, um, with the caveat that it's quite a mess. We had it done up last year and already it looks like it sort of needs to be redone. Well, it is a bit like getting surgery, I imagine, in that you just, you get one thing and then you think that's looking a bit tired now. But the thing I like about my house is that we got the

inside done up but the front is like it literally it's burglar proof because it looks so awful that no one would ever imagine that inside is a lovely little house with matilda goge you know little i shouldn't really say this on a like i'm not going to i'm not going to i'm not going to i'm not going to i'm not going to tell the listeners my address so it's fine no no no no we don't want to kidnapers gone to go out and let's cross over come on Ray we're going to Brianie's house this is exciting isn't it and we do actually have a dog bowl oh do you so for my mum's dog who comes but my husband won't let us get a dog and this is Harry your husband

my husband Harry me and my daughter Edie she's 11 we would really like a dog but he he's very much the sensible person in the house the only sensible person and he rightly is like who's going to look after the dog during the day because you're at school and we're both working and I think that is the right sort of attitude to have but we did have guinea pigs you had guinea pigs yeah why oh I don't did are they no longer with us sadly not no sadly guinea pigs they are amazing They're beautiful, aren't they? They like popcorn as well, which is like a, they almost like dance and they make fantastic sounds.

But sadly, they don't last very long. It's a bit, they lasted about five years, which I think is good innings for a guinea pig. Oh God, this hill is. This is good exercise, farming. It's not, it's not that. It's not that steep. No wonder you're so fit. But.

You and your marathons. No, but I could run a marathon, but walking up this hill every day, while talking. This is very embarrassing. Oh, this is such a pretty street. This isn't my street. I'm bringing you up with the luxury street. And then we'll get to mine.

And you'll see what I'm talking about. I should say, by the way, I'm with a very, very marvellous Barney, Gordon, who, I don't know. quite some years. A lot of years, many years. This is my house. Can you see what I mean? Oh, I love it. Some sort of slightly dead plants and obviously we let Ivy grow up the front. So we've had to pull that back and a rose bush that needs of pruning. The rose bushes. Do you know what, Ronnie? And I'm honestly not just saying this. I like houses like this. I'm not big on the whole Mrs Hinch.

vibe. Oh no, there's definitely not, I'm not, no one's going to mistake me for Mrs. Hinch. I won't say what colour your door is, but it is rather beautiful. Right, come in. I'll hold Raymond, come in, oh, we'll take our shoes off. Is that okay? Oh, I'm shoes off. I'm a shoes off person, but people, some people don't take their shoes off and I have

to, I'm a bit like, that's, it's not okay. If you can't, just, if anyone listening ever comes to my house, take your shoes off. I always think it's a bit strange now that we do shoes off. The idea that we didn't used to seems really odd. That you would step loads of dirt and... I know, but like is it... Also, now, does Ray want to sit on this nice, puffy, I'm going to put my keys up here? How dare you?

Would Ray like to sit on this? This being a mint green blanket with pom-poms on it. You're getting his number already, Brian. Let me, would you like a water? Oh, sorry, this is, I wasn't expecting guests. This is a lovely house, Brani. It's got a really nice, warm energy. Well, I really like it.

Slightly, like, there's sort of slightly dead flowers that I meant to throw out. But yeah, we, I like it. Sometimes I have to stop and, like, realize how far I've come, like this, having, living in just like a two up, two down with a kitchen island. and like by fold doors onto a nice garden. Like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I would have lost my shit for that, you know? And...

The Gen Z producer is nodding. This is heaven. Yeah. I feel like I have to, such a female thing, I have to point out everything that's wrong. You've got a dead hydrangee. Yeah, and some, oh God, anyway. I'm going to get some water.

Would you like some water? Actually, Brangley, I'll have some water. Okay, great. I could not be more delighted that we are sitting here on the sofa doing this, because I have honestly been non-stop for like four or five weeks. Right, off the sofa, please. No, Raymond. No, not on that clean sofa, please. Ray is like, we're supposed to be walking me, not sitting me. Sit.

So we're back in Briney's house, which is... FYI, absolutely gorgeous. I love it. And it's got quite a feminine vibe to it, which I think says a lot of good things about Harry, your husband. He's very much, like we know our places in our relationship. You know, like we know what each of us are, our sort of our strong points, our strong suits are and what our weaknesses are.

And we stick to our, like we stay in our lanes. We stay in our like relationship lanes. So he would never dare to kind of like go, oh, like he, he, I really happily admits he has like no decor, just no taste other than women, obviously. And he, you know, he's, he, he, he, he, I love him, he sort of wears just very strange clothes and he's, you know, that's okay, that's him and it's kind of adorably him. So he wouldn't ever do that and I would never get involved in like, I don't

know, I was going to say finances and that sounds like really like, I just completely understand that. And I think if it was the other way around where you, that was your forte. I think that's not really an unfeminist thing. It's just a practical thing. Yeah. But it's also just understanding, I always think in life it's like I can spend a lot of life as a woman going, I need to be better at this and I need to be better at this.

And then you go, actually know, these are the things I'm good at. I don't need to be good at everything. Like that is a patriarchal load of bullshit, you know, that has been pressed on me since I was like a little girl. I don't need to have it all. I don't need to be good at everything. I don't need to be good at like, I don't need to be able to cook and keep my, you know, perfect bank balance and change a light bulb. And and and and and, like, I just, I know what my strengths are. and I play to them instead of trying to endlessly improve all my weaknesses.

Going back to your childhood, I feel you had a dog, you had a Labrador called Polo? Oh my God, that is, how do you know that? When it comes to dogs, no one can touch me on my research. Polo. I was talking about Polo the other day, and I think Polo would like get on the tube. You know, Polo would just wonder, like we had quite a bohemian looking back, quite like a bohemian you know, boundary-less childhood.

And there were a lot of animals. Like it was kind of a bit of, a house was a bit of like a menagerie that was like hamsters that would kind of run around and there was stick in sex and there was like five cats and 11 goldfish and rabbits and all sorts of things. But then there was polo at the centre of this who was this kind of he would, he could escape. Which I don't think really bears very well on us when I think about it, he could unlatch the garage door and he'd just go off and take himself for walks. I think Polo is the reason I don't have a dog now because I'm like, if you're going to have a dog, you need to be able to kind of like really.

And I realise as I'm saying this, I'm talking my parents into like animal cruelty, which is not what the case was. It was just polo was like a free spirit. Polo needed to be living in the countryside, not a terraced house in West London. But he was, he was, he was, he once ate all of the, um, candles on my birthday cake. Polo. Yeah, that was obviously not great for him. And then he was that kind of thing, like another time a friend had given me some of her tab poles from her pond for our pond. You know, very 80s of suburbs, right?

And I, it was a hot day and I put them on the side in a bowl. And then I looked around and Polo was just drinking the tampals. Who murdered them? I mean, I wouldn't say he was a murderer. Like, I don't, I think he, you know, he was doing his best at all. Like, I have empathy for Polo. So Polo, yeah, Polo was quite the character and sort of lives on in legend. And in fact, at the weekend, I was, I was with James Middleton, who I believe you just had on walking the dog.

He and with some other friends who I've known since I was little. And my other friend was like, just start talking about polo. Like polo had been hers, you know, with this kind of, oh, polo. Anyway. And it seems, Brian, you know, when I hear about your childhood, it was the pastel-coloured house of dreams, which I went to once, actually. Did you? Yeah, your mum, because we should explain, your mum was a journalist,

and I was starting out in journalism at the time and I'd come across her. So I can't remember. She'd had some party where she'd invited a few of us around. And I remember walking into this pastel-colored house and this beautiful terrace in West London. I'm wondering if you were there or you would have been very small. I think your brother and sister maybe were there. And I just thought, oh my God, this is an absolute paradise.

This is like that. Why didn't I have a child? like this. But of course what's so fascinating is that we all know all of that is meaningless really. You can have the dog and the Labrador and the pastel-coloured home, but that's your outsides, isn't it? Not what you're feeling inside. Yeah. And by insides, yeah, it was funny. Like, I did have, this is such a weird thing to say because, like, my parents are, you know, they're lovely and they're loving and there's, like, nothing bad ever happened to me, you know, accepting my own head.

And yeah, I was quite an anxious child. And when I was turned about 11, I just, what I now know is obsessive, compulsive disorder. Ray's got up and moved away. It's like, I don't like this conversation. I'm really sorry. He's quite intolerant of people with mental health issues. Listen, I think it's good for Ray to be exposed to this.

because we're breaking the stigma one dog at a time. Anyway, sorry, probably that was awful. You're being really vulnerable in opening yourself up. Oh no, it's fine, right? You got up and walked or no, can I tell you who's... I'm used to it. I'm used to it.

I've, listen, I've trained them to be like every man in my life. I have had harder customers than Ray. Let me tell you. Some of the things that I've been told below the line on various, articles I've written over the years. Don't you worry. Razor, he's a walk in the bark. So go on, you were saying that's interesting.

Yeah, you... Yeah, so I woke up one morning and I was convinced that I was dying of AIDS, which at the time, it was the early 90s and there was like a, I don't know if you remember, there was a massively, now I can see incredibly shaming public health campaign. which about about AIDS and it was like don't die of ignorance it was like John hurt and a kind of gravestone falling down you know it was not particularly nice and I even though I was like 1112 and obviously I was you know I never kissed anyone my drug habit was like 10 years off and it never got intravenous you know

it was all sorts of you know there was no reason why I would have HIV or AIDS but I was convinced I saw danger everywhere and it was like I woke I went to sleep one night I think I've been to like the smash hits poll and his party and then I woke up the next morning and it was like the world is end and you're not the world is going to end and you're not going to make it to Christmas and I now know that all over probably the Western world there were lots of people with this kind of obsessive fear of AIDS and hand washing and all sorts of It's a very common form of obsessive compulsive disorder about obviously 1991, 1992, I had no idea what OCD was. And if there was any kind of notion of it, it was, you know, it was very much like you keep your diet Coke cans in order.

And that was sort of, I guess, the start of like the most, I guess, enduring relationship of my, of my life really with OCD and yeah if I look back on my childhood and teens it was it was pretty awful not because of anything happening on the outside but because of this like constant fear I then became terrified that I was going to like infect my family and I had to hide my like toothbrush under my pillow and I would say phrases and in the hope of like keeping them alive, which I now know are all classic kind of obsessive compulsive disorder things.

I then, when I got a bit older, sort of it's 15, 16, I then, it then morphed into something quite different, same but different, which was, I was terrified that I might have hurt someone and blanked it out in horror. And is that, that's kind of intrusive thoughts, is it? Intrusive thoughts, yeah. So like, so basically, so OCD,

isn't spoken about much and we still have this like this was so i'm going back to the 90s now but this is still kind of very much the state of play now in 2024 that there will be people listening to this who have no idea that this is what oCD is there will be people listening to this who might have this form of OCD and this is why i talk about it so often because it might you know a light bulb might go off in their heads and they might you know be able to go into some sort of recovery from it and their lives might change for the better because it's awful. So, you know, people will say to me, I'm a bit OCD, you should see my sock draw. And I'm like, oh, I don't, I mean, like, I don't have a sock drawer. Like my husband always jokes, I wish you had the good type of OCD. And they're, by which he

means, you know, cleanliness. Or sort of Mrs. Hinch house. You can tell that vibe is not happening here. And the way I describe OCD, Emily, is it's like your brain refusing to acknowledge what your eyes can see. so that your hands are clean or the oven is off or the candles are of or that the speed bump you've gone over in the road is a speed bumper not like a child and there's also a kind of subset of OCD which is kind of colloquially termed as it isn't actually officially called this but this is what if you kind of go to a puro which is you can't see the obsessions or the compulsions and it's about intrusive thoughts and so we all have tens of thousands of thoughts every day. We are not our thoughts. We're just the person that hears them, you know. And we've all had those intrusive thoughts like, what if I was to pick Ray up and throw them on the floor or a baby?

I'm not going to do that, by the way. Most of us, you know, all like... Hot gas would be over. Yeah. But like, or like when you're on the train platform was up again, you think, what if I just pushed this person? That's a very common one, isn't it? You think, also, I've had that thing, Brian.

of imagine if I've jumped at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but most people will go, that's just a stupid thought in my brain, let it go, get on with their days, and they won't think about it again, you know. And someone with OCD will become so tormented by the thoughts that they will ruminate on the thoughts

to check they are not those thoughts, right? So I had this type of OCD, which is very common in which, basically my brain was like, maybe you're a serial killing paedophile. and so you can see where people don't talk about this form I'm not by the way I should say but I would say that wouldn't I the fact can I just say the fact that I can make jokes about this is fucking revolutionary because I get quite like I get quite emotion like talking about this it's actually like sitting in my own home talking about this is quite like it makes me go God

because I the other times where like I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't say bad words you know I couldn't read them in the newspaper or whatever I would have to find words to neutralize those words I would I would have this kind of constant I would be constantly saying phrases under my breath like sort of whispering to myself to try and neutralize bad thoughts you know and like it's awful it's really all it is no joke OCD but I think it's really important for me to talk about it in these terms because I have mostly moved through OCD and I would sort of define myself as being in recovery from it but being in recovery from something I think is really important to say it

doesn't mean that you've like beaten it it just means you have active ways in which you manage it on any given day and my life is a is fantastic I guess it's that thing isn't it of the origin is really helpful sometimes it You can presumably say to yourself, I can't stop myself feeling these thoughts if they do come, but I know why they're coming. Well, yeah, exactly. And I think that thing of knowing that having that like pause to be able to step back and go. So, you know, being very frank with you, I was a bit late to come and meet you because I was checking pictures of all the candles in the house.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Why, why right now am I in a bit of an OCD thing? And I sort of had a moment where I went, it's okay, Brian, you're tired, you've had a lot on, there's stuff going on, you know, there's stuff going on, a friend of mine's ill, and it's, you know, it's like what I've realised, and I think this way very, generally speaking, with most mental illnesses is that they're like, your brain's incredibly complicated and sophisticated way of trying to sort of help you and protect you.

But obviously it doesn't, you know, it's incredibly painful. But so I've come to see at OCD as this sort of slightly faulty mechanism of my brain whereby it's trying to keep me safe, but actually it's making me feel less safe in the long run. And also being really aware of like the level of self-sabotage that goes on in all of our brains because I think a lot of us go, why do I keep doing this behaviour? Why can't I just stop? And it's like, because our brains, if they're used to something, you know, they will always default to that, even if that thing happens to be really uncomfortable and horrible. Stories we tell ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, you know, it takes a long time and there isn't,

you know, there aren't what I've learned in my work as a kind of, A, as a mental health campaigner or whatever you want to call it, but also in my own work. my mental health is that there aren't you know we want these kind of quick fixes and we want to feel better we want six sessions of CBT to make everything better and all of that and it doesn't you know that doesn't exist like I spent most of the I would say I spent the first two-thirds of my life possibly more like trying to find that quick fix which was for me drugs alcohol whatever food whatever and and then eventually it's a waste of time because eventually you do have to just go oh no the experts are right you can't you can't you know it doesn't doesn't come and put

pill form and there's lots of different things that work I always think it's interesting to think if I was one of your friends parents and someone said what's little Brani like what would I have said how did you present to the world as a child I was really cheery yeah I was very like my school reports were always like a sunny disposition you know could try better but sunny disposition That is like that those are the most damning two words in a school report aren't they? Like there's so, it's such, it's also such like, it's like teachers, I don't know if it's different. I hope it's different now, but like in the 80s and the 90s, like a good girl, sunny disposition.

They have these kind of like phrases that they'd store away when they were doing their report. On assuming, yeah. Doesn't cause trouble, you know. Yeah, I don't think, you know, I don't think anyone would have looked at, you know, I don't think anyone would have looked at, me and gone troubled. Yeah. Although I think probably like very astute people might have done. But, um, but no, I was, you know, I was, I was a good girl.

I think my parents would have said like, mm. And were your parents, it's interesting, you know, when you talk about your parents, because they were sort of in the arts and the creative industries, right? Yeah. Mom was a journalist, which your dad in advertising. Something like that, yeah, I don't really know. He doesn't, I still don't really know. He just sort of just floats about it.

sort of being a champagne socialist. Right. It doesn't drink, but I mean, you know, that terrible phrase, I shouldn't be saying these things on a podcast. That would be a good name for a podcast. Champagne socialist. No, I shouldn't be saying these things on a podcast. Shouldn't be saying these things on a podcast.

But yeah, that's interesting. So I grew up similar background, I think, in the sense of, I mean, as nice, we didn't have the Bastel House or the dog or the auger. but I do understand what it's like to grow up in that kind of family where, you know, it's a bit bohemian, sort of guardian left wing, artsy, liberal, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what that sometimes means is that we didn't have as many rules as a lot of our friends. So we were sort of quite a cool place to come around to.

It was yours a bit like that. Absolutely, yeah. It was like, you could smoke at ours. Yeah, same, same, same. think, you know, and to be fair to my mum, because she was very much the one that did the, like, the most of the parenting, I think she thought that, like, if she allowed the stuff to happen, I mean, it's very much of the time, I think, you know, I think we can be really judgmental of our parents without having the sort of, like, context or wherewithal

of, like, that everyone's just usually, unless they're like Fred and Rosemary West, they're usually doing their best with what they've been given, you know. Sorry, that was a really dark kind of, but like, at the time, it was like, well, if I allow, if I'm open with my child, they'll be open with me too, and there'll be no secrets and there'll be no kind of, no skeletons, no, I'll be able to deal head on with any issues. And of course, you know, don't think maybe that's, I think now I realize that actually kids need boundaries, don't they? You know, even if they don't, ostensibly say they want them. They don't want to be, you know, they're like, well, I don't want to go to bed at 8pm or I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be told that there's a curfew or that I have

to do my homework or whatever. But actually, that's a sort of, very much a kind of, it does keep a sort of safe foundation or structure. Because you've got something to sort of push back against, which is your job as a kid. Yeah. And it means I remember looking at other kids and they would have something called tea at sort of 630. And we would just be expected to stay up the adults at dinner parties, even if it's like 11 at 9. Dinner parties are such. I cannot, like you saying that my mum had a party, I'm like, I cannot think, as a 44-year-old woman, I cannot think of anything I'd rather do.

Like, not, I'm not saying anything I'd rather do less than have you round for a party. That's, I would love to do that. But, but just generally have a party in my house or have anyone here after 6pm. I'm like, absolutely. Nope. Like that's just not like people are like oh let's go out for dinner. I'm like let's not do that. Let's let's meet for a coffee at 11 a.m or something on the Saturday. It's a really strange thing. I find it very strange looking back on it. I find people that still have dinner parties a little bit odd. It feels like so much work. I think there's something slightly performative about it because I think what's old is that you'll have friends around who you're very casual with normally and you just be like oh fucking hell you know. I can't the mortgage this month or something. And then you're inviting them around pretending you live like this in this clean home with this expensive wine and this.

I don't know something feels a bit fake about it to me. Yeah, I would always much rather like my... I'm so relieved when I go around to someone's house and I see shoes in the hall. Yeah. And maybe a dish. I just need one dish. That's all I need in the sink. Yeah.

I think maybe it's because I'm an alcoholic. And I'm sort of seven years into recovery, sobriety. And I think that I am still very much in that stage of like, I want, I still very much associate evenings out with alcohol. And I don't, and I just want to kind of, I think I'm still cannot believe that I'm the kind of person who goes to bed early and gets up early in the morning and goes to bed with like a clean face.

and I wake up in the morning and I remember everything from the night before and I don't have to check my phone to see if I've like done something terrible on social media or called someone at two in the morning and you know so I still very much for me if I'm if I socialise with people sounds very like it's it's it's on a sort of like go for a walk or do some sort of like form of exercise together or you know make and I might I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't I realised I thought I was this very gregarious social person until I got sober. And then over time, I've realised that actually I'm quite socially inept. And alcohol created that sort of like it now allowed me to feel like I was putting on like a sparkly dress. And to do the things I thought I should do to be a quote unquote normal person. And so now I don't see, you know, I don't have, God, it sounds so tragic. I don't have, like, a massively busy social life,

and I don't have heaps of friends, so to speak. I have quite, like, a few quite close friends, and so it's like, let's make a plan to go away for a weekend or, you know, like, go, do you know what I mean? So, like, I'd rather spend time with people in that. Yeah. No, I totally understand. I stopped thinking about five years ago.

Not really. I hasten to, you know, I should say, because I don't want to, I didn't, you know, it's not the achievement that yours was because mine was literally just a, you know, I never had a thing where I had to drink, but I just suddenly thought, I didn't really want it in my life anymore. I don't, and it was kind of like after grief. I started to realize I'm feeling so complicated about all this stuff I've gone through. I don't know if I should throw booze into this equation because I just saw a situation. I thought that could get quite easy to start escaping into that. But the point being, I feel exactly like you. As soon as you

take booze out of your life, it feels quite weird going out there. It's like a bit medieval carnival when I go into places and everyone's faces. It feels a bit of frightening. You know, frightening is the word actually. And it's a really good word to describe how I feel. And I think it's when I'm with people that are a bit drunk, you know, and it's not that the people are frightened, you know, they are not, you know, like they are just being people that are slightly tipsy and they're, you know, but I think what it does as ever is that if a strong reaction comes up in me, it's because I am seeing a bit of myself that I don't want to see at any given time. So I'm reminded of how chaotic and unpredictable I could be, you know, when I was drinking. and I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't really enjoy. But also what I've realised is that I thought all my friends were like as boozy as I was. And what's been so fascinating is realizing that they're really not. Like I have these, my best friend and her husband, we go away quite a lot together with our kids and stuff like that.

And they will, Emily, they will come away. We'll go away, right? and they will go an entire like two weeks or whatever and they won't, they just won't even get it, have a drink. They're like, oh no, and I'm like, what the fuck? Like, you're not an alcoholic, you can drink, drink. And then I'm like, oh no, this is why I can't drink. Right.

Because I'm trying to, even in sobriety, I'm trying to push alcohol on other people. It's like even, I remember going to this like awards dinner once and I must have been about two years sober. and I remember being really annoyed for everyone on the table because they weren't leaving the bottles of wine on the table and the waiters were like coming around and like refilling, but like very slowly. And I remember being like, don't you find this really annoying? And they were like, no, not really.

You don't appear to be drinking either, so I'm not really sure why this is a problem for you. And I was like, oh, you know, this is what I can't drink. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.