Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Cariad Lloyd

Episode Date: January 14, 2019

This week Emily goes out with comic, writer, actress and host of the hugely successful Griefcast podcast - Cariad Lloyd. They go for a stroll in London’s Waterlow Park with Willow, a fabulous poodle. Cariad talks about her love of poodles, losing her dad as a teenager, sharing a flat with Sara Pascoe and the brilliant Griefcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Willow, don't, Willow, you're going to lose that fight, mate. Walk away. Cocky poodle. This week on Walking the Dog, I went out with comic, writer, actor, an all-round fabulous woman, Carriad Lloyd. Carriad and I met when she invited me on her brilliant, and I should say award-winning grief cast podcast. Carriad doesn't have a dog at the moment,

but she did drop in that she's a huge poodle fan. So I borrowed the lovely Willow, who belongs to my friend Jane. Carriead and I went for a stroll in London's Waterloo Park, and she's sort of just as lovely as you'd hope. We talked about losing her dad at young age, sharing a flat with Sarah Pasco, and also, I think my favourite bit was how she met her rather hard.

Hashtag adorable. Do listen to Carriad on Griefcast, by the way, as it's moving and inspiring, but it's also hilarious. And you can catch Carriad in Ostentatious, the fabulous improv show, which is on at the Fortune Theatre in London, until this summer. For more info on that, by the way,

go to ostentatiousimpro.com. And that's spelled like Jane Austen, by the way. I hope you enjoy this podcast. If you do, please rate, review and subscribe. Here's Carriad. Hello. This is exactly what our poodle used to be like. Oh, really?

Yeah, it's like, then really nervous. And so the poodle is like, yeah, I'll walk with you, but it's not what I want. You know what I mean? It's not who I want to be with, but fine. I'll walk with you and be well. behaved. They're like well-behaved children. Let's go this way.

Because Willow's owner told me that this was a particular area that Willow liked. I always do this strange beginning bit of the podcast, Carriot. I know it's hard to start, isn't it? I have a grief cast. Well, you know about this, so we'll discuss this. But I am going to formally introduce you. Okay, okay. So this is Walking the Dog.

I'm Emily Dean, and I'm here with the very wonderful Carriad Lloyd. comic, actress, writer, podcaster? Improvisor. Happened with that? Yeah, improviser. Yeah, she'd add improviser. Only because I get told off if I don't by my improv group. That sounded like I was like, don't forget my other skill.

That sounds like an argument. I don't want to have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're here. Do you want to introduce us to the dog that we've got with us? Well, we have got the amazing yet very neurotic and nervous, which I think is appropriate for who I am, Willow the Poodle, who is, they call this an apricot poodle

and it's, I can't remember the official word, it's the medium one. Is it, like, it might be, no, standard's the big one. Willow is a... It's a toy? Isn't Toy the tiny one? Willow is a miniature, yeah. So basically it's not, she's not teeny and she's not massive.

She's doing the stairs. You're doing really much? She's got a lovely Argyle jumper on. She's a mate, she's not my dog, sadly. This is very sad for me. This is the kind of dog I would very much like. Well, she is, Willow. belongs to a friend of mine called Jane who I met walking my dog, Ray.

Which is adorable. Yeah. He made a dog walking friend. We're just passing a French, what's that French bulldog? And he's got a tennis ball in his mouth. And what I like is he had a little coat on, but it looked like a puffer jacket on him. I was just thinking that. It looked a bit like a trendy hackney French bulldog.

I thought he looked a bit East 17. Oh yeah, they had that dog, didn't they? Yeah. It's Brian's dog. Willow looked very. North London. Willow! So what do you make of Willow? I think Willow's amazing. I love poodles because I'm slightly allergic to some dogs, you see. Are you? Poodles don't shed. And I'm fine

with poodles and we had a poodle growing up. So that's why, yeah, that's why I always said to you, do you know any poodles? Like some creepy old man asking for some hot younger thing. Emily, can you set me up with a poodle please? Willow's got a sniff. Yeah, Willow's having a sniff now. Oh, blind me, Willow. It's we. She found another way. And we're in, we should say. Waterdale Park.

Yeah. And I was going to say, do you come here often? I do. Yeah, yeah. I do. I bring my daughter here when it's warm. It's a bit cold today. It's such a nice park.

It's really nice. And they've got a nice Lauderdale house. It's a good North London park. Yeah. I actually think it's very calm as well, do you? Yeah. I really love it here. And it's so empty as well.

I mean, we don't want to be giving it away all of the secret. I know, it's a bit of a... And you don't really know it's there from the road. Oh, I've got a lovely old lady. Oh, it's another poodle. So we've just spotted another poodle. Old lady. That looks smaller.

I think that's the smaller one, isn't there? Yeah. Black poodle goes. I think I've seen this lady before. She's basically who I want to be. You'll see. Yeah, yeah. Hello.

Hello, Belle. How are you? Oh, say hello, we know. Oh, great, thank you. Another poodle. This is, this is, this is one. Willow? Who's that?

Oh, Willow? Yeah, yeah. My friend Jane, it's her dog. Yes. Jane, very well. Oh. Yesterday here. Oh.

He's got so many, she's, he, he's got so many coats. That's another one. Oh, another guy. He's got quite a wardrobe. He's like Joseph in that respect. We only had the one, but it was very bright. And what's your dog called? Trudy.

Oh, Trudy. Hello, Trudy. She knows him, of course, because we often meet her. He loves her. so much and she loves him so much but he's good with you he's not unhappy to oh no he's all right yes it's marvellous isn't it yeah yeah that's nice you know I couldn't possibly do that oh what's drink it and walk with a coffee in my house no it's it's a I can't understand it you know you either sit down in a caffeine habit or you have to know I mean it's a craze isn't it a modern phenomenal

It goes cold quickly. Yeah, it does. They're paper. We got paper cups, so we can recycle, hopefully. I know, but it doesn't taste like... No, you're right. It's not the same, yeah. You need bone china, really.

You can cope with that with your iPhones and your dog and the coffee. I think it's crazy. You're right. I agree with you. Thank you. I mean you are. When I was at school, if we were seen eating in the street, you were expelled. Wow.

Oh, my goodness. That's hard. But it's so nice to see you again. Lovely to meet you and Trudy. Yeah, have a lovely day. Oh, Willow. Bye-bye. Willow, what are you up to?

Willow's into crows, I think. That's what we've discovered. Come on, Willie. Is Willow a boy or a girl? Willow's a boy. I've been saying she. I assumed Willow was a girl as well. Perhaps Willow's undecided.

I think I might have made that mistake earlier. Yeah, yeah, it's a boy. Because the lady there seemed to be very confident. Yes, so that lady there that we just met is. She's just amazing. Isn't she amazing? Let's go down here, Carole. She's like something...

Yeah, she's like from another era. Yeah, I mean, she disapproves of coffee in public. She's definitely from... My friend's mum, sorry, my friend's mum had that, that she wouldn't... Her school would give you a detention of you, if you were seen eating in public in the school uniform. Really?

So she used to tell my friend every time, like, mustn't be seen eating on the street. I thought that was a stranger scene to get upset about, like, walking along. eating a sandwich. Tiny Robin. Emily, look. Tiny Robin. Christmas, just gone. What I liked about that woman, Cariad,

is that it was, it made me feel so young. Because she must have been about, she was sort of late 80, I would say, and very well preserved. I liked the beige snood. Yeah, she had a beige snood. The beige snoo is very glamorous. It was the idea that we were these hipsters. Yeah, yeah. We are open coffees, mobile open coffee.

What would you feel if you actually meant met a millennial? She'd be a straw. Two quite safe ladies having hot chocolate, actually. I didn't dare tell her. It's not even coffee. It's just a hot chocolate. So I'm really excited to have you on today, Caya. I'm excited to be here.

I love this podcast. Oh, well, I'm a big fan of your podcast, briefcast, which we will talk about. And that's actually how we first met when I did your podcast. But I wanted to go back to your early dog experiences. Oh, sure, sure. So you were... Am I right in thinking you were a Londoner? Yes, yeah, yeah.

Despite the name, the Welshest name in the world, I grew up in North London and still live here. I love North London, heartily. And it was you, your mum and your dad. Yeah, and my brother. And your brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, on the edges of North London,

I don't like to talk about the area too much. I'm very weirdly private about certain things. But yeah, the suburbs of North London, basically. I get the impression from when... I've spoken to you before. Yes. I should go there. I'm conscious that we're heading out of the park.

There's a big Rossi there who looks lovely, but you never know. Yeah, he's a bit and he's not on the lead. No, exactly. Willow, don't, Willow, you're going to lose that fight, mate. Walk away. Cocky poodle. No. So I get the impression that your background was slightly sort of arts and crafts,

bohemian. It wasn't as bohemian as yours. Yours, I think, was the best bohemian I've heard of. I was like weirdly, I was thinking about this morning actually. Like, I guess it's the suburban version of bohemia. On paper, if you looked at us, I think we looked very suburban and normal. Yeah. Mom and Dad and, you know, nice house, a garden, boy and a girl.

But yeah, we were quite, my parents are actually quite bohemian in a way that I think they concealed quite well. Whereas I think with what you told me about your family, the bohemian was like, as soon as you open the package, you were like, yes, this bohemia. Yeah. Whereas my lot, I think it would take you about. an hour before you were like, what the fuck is going on with these people? Like you'd be like, oh, they see, like my mum seems very normal at us. And then you find out about the culture she was in in the 70s. Oh, okay, yeah, maybe it's not quite as simple.

So yeah, they were into a lot of self-help, I guess, is what you'd call it now. But it was like, as we talked about, it was called Est then. And they were into sort of like, like, you'd go, it's so hard to explain. But it's not like now, if someone said I'm into self-help now, think, oh right, they read a book, whereas in the 70s it was like, oh, they went and like lived in a house with those people doing self-help or they stayed over all weekend talking up, assessing their problems and crying and pretending to be dead. It's very hard to explain what my parents got into. Well, I think what you call it now is a retreat, which

I've done which is a kind of well-being retreat. Whereas I think then, yeah, I know what you mean. It was that sense of... Well, no one else was doing it. Yeah. unusual thing to do. And also I think look at the films of the 70s, look at the politics. Things weren't soft. Because I think now people go, well-being. Then it was literally called, we're going to break you. So people wanted, like, hardcore self-help.

That was the fashion. They didn't want someone to be like, oh, why don't we talk about it? They were like, you are fucked up. How can we destroy your brain and rebuild it so that you can be true to yourself? Like, that's, I think, much more what was happening. Right. So we were brought up with that kind of philosophy.

and we used to go to Fintorn in Scotland and have family meeting. It was just, yeah, very... What's your mum and dad's name? Ruth and Peter. So Ruth and Peter. Yeah. Are they...

I like them, very biblical. Oh yeah, no, funny, isn't it? Because, again, you wouldn't think it to meet when you've met them. What were their job, sorry? Did they... So my mum worked... She was a, like...

It looked after us, but then she was all... She looked after kids, so she worked at like children's home, and she was like Montessori teacher, she worked in schools, but between sort of raising us, really. My dad, I've said this before, like, it's really hard to know what he did. Like, it was something to do. It's sort of like management consultant or something.

When I got married, you have to put your father's occupation, and I genuinely turned to my mum and brother and said, what did he do? And they were like, business. So I just wrote business down, businessman. Because it's like, yeah, it was like management, you know, communication, PR, marketing management consultant.

He had an office in the house. We don't really know what he did. Okay. But he was in that room quite a lot. Put it that way. He had a computer. He liked talking about networking. That's all I can tell you guys.

He had one of the first internets. Would you describe your childhood as happy? Yeah, I would. I think, to a certainly sense, I think now I'm in therapy. My therapist likes to point out a lot of things. Maybe I didn't notice. Do you find you ever,

sometimes when my therapist does that, I find myself getting a bit defensive about my family, do you? Yeah, I do as well, yeah, because she's like, oh, maybe, you know, she always thinks I was quite blinkered about stuff. And I'm like, maybe I was, but maybe it was also fine, that they were crazy, you know. Because if someone wasn't there, you feel a bit like, well, it's all very well judging them now, but at the time, it wasn't like I wasn't unhappy as a child. So it's all very well saying, yes, but you were ignoring a lot of the things that were going on.

And I think, yes, and I was very happy ignoring it. And I was fine. No, I think we had a really nice, I would say, my memory of it is very happy, like sort of idyllic suburban. I said, you know, we had that my dad used to run marathons and triathlons all over the world, raising money for this charity called World Runners. So we used to go away, like we went to Barbados, so he ran the marathon there, or we went to Moscow, and he run a marathon there. So we had like these amazing, they used both really into traveling.

They used to take us all over the world. apart from the year that they had no money and we went to Wales which was very painful and yeah my memory of it is just you know playing in the garden with my brother and having my friends around the corner and going to school across the road it was just lovely and then my dad died

so for me it's a bit like before and after seems quite but then I think my therapist would say I've coloured them quite strongly so I've made the before my dad died really perfect and the after much worse. It's a bit sort of Wizard of Oz. I think so, yeah, yeah, I think so. It was actually perhaps it wasn't as wonderful as I'd like to remember.

I'm sure that's true. Why do you think you've done that maybe? So he diagnosed 15. He was diagnosed in February, he was dead by the April. And I said he was a training for an Ironman. He ran triathlons. Very noisy child coming past. I'm like, really sorry, Kerry.

Guys, we're having a moment. I just talking about my dead father. to be a back. Opening up. Can I ever just opening up to her father? D-da-d-d-d-d-d- And then a child decided to... Join him. That's okay. I know. They have no sense of decorum. Yeah, so I think the shock, basically, it was such a shock. You were 15, yeah. Yeah, and, you know, he was dead so quickly. That's a funny thing to say. She didn't just die.

But, you know, we had the diagnosis that he had secondary pancreatic cancer, and then before I knew it, he was dead, and I had to take my genius. disease and so I think it just became I think sometimes when cancer is a longer thing you maybe your life evolves around it at the same time when people are sick for maybe one or two years I don't know I don't have experience but my experience was like everything was fine you dad's got cancer he's dead and it was like what what just happened so I think it makes it easier to romanticize that life because it seems like it got ripped away very quickly yes yeah yeah yeah so you get very like, oh, before he was ill, everything was wonderful.

It's like, definitely wasn't true. It was definitely not very dramatic before he died. And how do you think it changed you as a person, losing your dad at that? Yeah, it's hard. I think it's taken me many, many years, as I say, on grief, cars, to work that out. I think it fundamentally changed me as a person because it's such a shocking thing to happen. But if you'd ask me when I was 15, I would say, no, nothing's changed. I'm exactly the same, because I fought it for so long.

But I think now I'm older, I think, how can it not change you to lose someone so fundamental to your life and your peace and your world so quickly? It definitely made me, well, we talk about the sort of time on grief class of like, once you've joined the club, as we call it, the fun death club, I think you just suddenly become aware that life isn't, you know, sleeping out in the tent in the garden with your brother going to school, a crossroad, and that's it. You're like, oh, there's another side to life that's really awful. And it's like, you'll push through that door, aren't you? Oh, people can die. And until you know that and experience it, I think it's easy to

yeah, live your life thinking, oh, you know, the worst thing that can happen is my friend doesn't talk to me to his day at school or that boy doesn't like me. Then you're like, no, the worst thing can happen is, guys, everyone can fucking die. So you imagine how fun I was as a teenager. I just went from, you know, I was at parties, and everyone was getting drunk and taking drugs, and I was like, we're all going to die. What's the point of any of this? What's the point of, like, snogging each other?

I do hope you had, like, I do hope you started to be a goth for this period. I was a goth, yes. I was already a bit of a goth. Willow seen a squirrel. Willow. He perked up suddenly, Willow. Squirrel's gone, mate. It's gone.

Well done for seeing it, though. Where's this squirrel? It's gone up the tree, isn't it? Did you chase it off? Oh, good dog. Yeah, I was a bit of a goth beforehand, but it definitely increased. But I was a bad goth, did I tell you this? Because I had like waist-sank jet black hair, black lipstick, like 150 necklaces from Camden Market.

But then I'd listen to Joanie Mitchell because I didn't like the got the goth music. The goth music was too loud. Couldn't you have even gone commercial goth like Friday I'm in love? Oh, yeah, I did like that. I did like The Cure. but I found, you know, at that time, everyone was listening to Sweet Light Chocolate Boy. That's what I was dealing with. That's my era.

Of course it is. Everyone was dressed in Jane Norman. Oh, yes, I forget. You see, that's the thing. I thought the... So were they not popular anymore, then? Not really. No, that would have been a bit of vintage for my...

So I was going to say, so your goth era was... Was it good Charlotte, or is that... I don't know. Honestly, I feel like I was always in the wrong bit of time. Like I was... There wasn't any goths when I was... There was no emo music. everyone was listening to UK Garage or the Spice Girls

or it was the end of oasis and blur like that just finished and like there was just I remember just thinking where is the music that that's why I listened to Joanie Mitchell and Bob Dylan and Fleetwood Mac Yes I see that I always just thought Goths that have transcended decades really

and they just I think the period that I was 1516 there was a break in the goths that's what I think because there was nothing A break in the goth matrix And then you started getting emo. When I saw that happening, I was like, I would have bloody loved a bit of emo.

This looks amazing. I was going to say, when did goths become the emo? I know. I mean, that's really what happened. That's happened. They stole our goths. And tell you what, you could not buy stripy tights for love nor money in my day. You had to search up and down Camden Market and fight another goth for it.

And now I see them everywhere. There's stripy tites and their corsets and their black net skirts. I think, oh, you don't know you're born. It was very hard to get that kind of. Schmatter when I was a child This was a tough period obviously Yeah, yeah, it was pretty bad Yeah, and after your dad died

How did that make you feel as a family? Do you think? Did it bring you together Or do you think it... Yeah, it did actually, we were very lucky I don't know if everybody has this And I think my experience is it can, Death can really rip a family apart It's a bit, I think it's so similar to her baby

it's like if there's any problems before the baby, they're just magnified once the baby arrives. And the same with the death. It's like any trouble brewing, a death just makes it go, boom, there it is. But we were very lucky that my mum is and was amazing. And everything I've read since then, especially talking to Julia Samuel, an amazing grief psychotherapist. Oh, yeah.

And she was saying that with young people being breathed, a big part of it is the parents left. So their survival is about that parent's left has to be very stable and secure. And my mum absolutely made it that she was, you know, she was just 100% there for us, which obviously is not possible for everybody. So it's not a criticism if you're, that didn't happen to you. My mum was, yeah, she just became two parents and pulled us together and we became really close. Yeah.

That unit, the rest of the family was, it was tough for lots of other reasons. But me and my mother, my brother definitely felt like it's, us versus the world. Yeah. Because we've been through this, you know, awful thing. And my parents were very open about what was happening to my dad. We were there when he died. We were in the room.

It was always talked about, you know, it wasn't... My mum would cry in front of us. It definitely wasn't another fashion legend to just walk past us. Red velvet jacket and herring bow trousers. I think she's in her age. Oh, she looked amazing. You know what? I've got a theory about that, Carriette. Yes, yes. What I like, and I don't know why this.

but there's a particular thing about these women around here. Yeah. You know, there's that sense of you're meant to sort of hide away. Oh, yes. Once you get to a certain age. And if you're not young, you know, you have two choices. Yeah. You disappear.

Or you're a young coquette, basically. Yeah. There's the only two roles you can play as a woman or your mum. Yeah. But it's like, I like these women because they're like, no, I'm not doing any of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd fuck you all. Screw you.

It's what's that poem? Like, when I'm old, I'll wear my purple hat. This is really often, can I say, because I keep wanting to ask you a question. I keep feeling like, oh God, why am I speaking so much? I used to doing my podcast. I'm like, I must ask Emily a question. You know, it's really weird because when I interviewed Greg Davis, he just stops on it and he went, I just feel a bit weird about this.

And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, I just feel like I'm talking about myself. I know, yeah, you feel like you're having one of those chats where you're like, oh, I must ask a question in a minute, I've talked enough. Well, it's if you're curious person as well, as you are. Yeah, yeah. Someone say, was that your family? You're kind of people I love.

It's interesting that this thing that happened to you, which was life-changing, but also not easy, I sort of love that something really positive and joyful has come out of that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Oh, Willow's having a sniff. Doesn't need much, Willow, but when he wants to stop, he will. Yeah, I think I was reading about grief on the internet. because that's the sort of thing I do. And they were talking about, like, different types of grievers.

And there was one that was described as, like, activist. And it was like, this griever won't, will, like, start research the disease or, like, start campaigning. Or, and won't, will force a change from it? Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's me. And I think I just felt, I think what happened was so, felt so awful. Obviously, it's not the worst thing in the world. Plenty of people have more awful experiences.

but to me at that time it felt like I mean I describe it a lot on the show of someone had pulled the tablecloth off the table but it also felt like the world had cracked open and everything I was in the pit and it felt so awful that I remember thinking something good has to fucking come at this

like it can't be this it can't just be that there must be a thing that I can and this is my self-help upbringing there must be a reason and I can learn from it and how can I process this and what can I take from it? Like that's how we were brought up. So what can we learn from this kids? This argument about who holds the remote controls. What can we learn today? So I did that to my dad's death, I think. I was like, right, okay, I feel awful. So then I maintained,

I would always talk about it, which I did. And then when podcasts started to being a thing, I thought, oh, I would have loved a podcast when my dad died talking about that would have been really helpful. So I thought, oh, maybe I should do it. That would be, that would be you. That was something I would have liked and it was always trying to make something useful come out something so shit. We're like you with your new book. You just want something to come out of a shit situation. Well I agree with that and it is cathartic but also I think it was brave of you to do it and I don't normally like the word brave in connection with death and mourning but when I say brave I'm talking specifically just about you deciding to do that as an art form if you like

or you deciding to do it as a piece of work on a podcast and opening up about it and making it, putting it into a public forum. Your podcast is so funny, but it's also moving. Yeah. And I certainly found this writing my book recently. People sometimes say, oh, this sounds good, yeah.

It's going to be funny, though, isn't it? It's going to be funny with this panic in their voice. Yeah, yeah, like, please don't make me think about death too much. I don't want to. I'm trying to live my life. And you're like, I know, but it's going to happen to you. You're going to die. Don't tell me that.

And you end up saying, well, yeah, it's funny, but they're a funny bit. Yeah. But it's quite sad. I know. And they say, yeah, but I don't want to read a cancer diary. I mean, I don't read it then. Yeah, don't read me then. Because...

You read another book? Yeah, exactly. No, I... I just was interested in that thing that when you experience loss and you choose to talk about it. Yes. I think it can provoke responses in people of, I guess, defensiveness. Yeah, I think. I think so much of life is people are terrified of dying.

Like now I talk about it all the time and I'm obsessed with it. I look at stuff and I think, why is that person acting like that? I think, God, this is about death. This is about trying to live. Like, I think once you're in the club and you're through that door and you know that death happens, you know, you have a choice. Either you pretend you're not there or you go, guys, look, this is okay. It's not, it's not the end.

Yes, it's the end for that person. but it doesn't mean it's... People then go, oh, oh, you're saying that's brilliant. I'm like, no, no, it's brilliant. But I'm saying it's 100% going to happen. So we have to face that. And I think some people are just so terrified of it. Like, I was talking to someone the other day,

you'd appreciate this. People in the club appreciate it. And they were saying... In the group club. I said something about... They were asking me about grandparents and I said, oh, well, we've only got my mom because actually my husband, both his parents have passed away.

And he went, oh, God, I mean, that's literally my worst nightmare. And I thought, what you, like, that's his life, you know. And I said, oh, well, yeah, I mean, obviously it's very sad. I mean, I can't even think about it. I mean, I just hope it never happens to me. I thought, what world are you living in? Well, you think your parents aren't going to die? They're going to die.

But that's, because he hasn't been, this person hadn't been in the club at all, hadn't, you know, obviously hadn't had a very close person to them die. And I thought, oh, I see. You think that you can somehow not be in that, not walk in that room. is it was a choice. You know, you realize it's not a choice, guys. Like, it's just going to happen. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think that's, maybe you've had this, well. Like, the more you talk about it, just the easier it is, the less it becomes frightening. I think so. And I've got, you know, if you'd asked me five years ago to talk about it like this, I would have found it very difficult. Yes. But because I've now talked about it so much on the podcast,

I can say his name was Peter. I can say he died like this. Whereas before I'd be like, like, like, Oh God, why is she asking me? What am I going to cry? How do I feel? The more you talk about it, the... Yeah, I think so.

It's soothing, I find, to talk about them and to not act like they never existed. You know, is that how you feel? I certainly went through that thing of wanting to make it a good grief. Yes. So when my family died, it was like, I didn't really do any of my mourning in public, to be honest. I never shared that with anyone.

I did it home. Yeah, yeah. And I think what's interesting, writing about it, you realise actually you expose that and you're truthful about that and that's hard

because it's hard for... I imagine it's hard for your friends as well like I imagine thinking oh right, okay well I wasn't there for you you know. You know my private that absolutely first year raw

what the fuck just happened to me was 20 years ago and I wouldn't... If you'd ask me at 15 to talk fuck off Like, I would have not been okay with that because I didn't have the words then. So I think you have to have a bit of distance from it, don't you? Well, everyone's different, but I think it does help to have a little bit of distance

and to be able to go, I can tell you I've just been to the worst place and I thought I'd never come back from it. But when you're in it, it's hard to say because you think, well, I'm here, I'm going to die here. This is the end. This is just how it is. Yeah, yeah. You did English at Sussex. I did.

Good research. I know why I know that, because that's what I did. Did you? How did we not talk about this? I know, I don't think we have, but I was, I always loved that fact about you for completely... Wow, Emily. And I did table manners with Jesse Ware, who did English at Sussex. Yes, and we had a complete, like, oh my God, with, and I was there, that's why I met my best pal, Sarah Pascoe, who also did English at Sussex.

No. Yeah, that's how we met. Stop. I didn't know you did that. Yeah. You met Sarah Pasco Yes A very fabulous comic

Who's done this podcast actually And she Was at university with you Yes And you were You became flatmates did you Yes We didn't want at uni

Funny enough And then Willow these are stairs Are you alright with them? Do you want to treat or something? I got one but Willow is not keen Is he a treat? No

No turning his nose up Do you know she's I keep saying she Yeah he's Willow he has got a very he's very self-controlled on the food phone. Yeah, poodles can be. They're not like food.

Who's this character? This looks like a poodle mix, isn't it? That's not, I don't think that's a standard poodle. Do you? It's a bit fluffy tailed. It might be a labradoodle. Max, Max is taking a shine to the producer. He's lovely.

Hi Max. Hello, Max. He's big, big brown. I think it's a labradoodle. You can smell your treats. He can smell the treats. That's why Max is being friendly. Yeah, poodles aren't food-driven like Labradors.

Oh, really? Yeah, they're not so, like, bothered. Oh, like me? Yeah. So you shared a flat with Sarah? Yeah, so we didn't live together at uni, and then basically we left uni, and Sarah is, like, definitely responsible for... Oh, look, what's that? It's a tiny little thing.

Oh, my God, it's a puppy. A little puppy with a jacket on. Winter's good for dogs, isn't it? I'm enjoying this fashion shape. I love it. Yeah, like Pasco is responsible. for a large part of my life choices. So we left uni and we wanted to be actors

and I being a very neurotic, negative person at the time was like, well, we just can't do it. And she was like, yes, we can. We just have to get actor jobs. And I didn't know what that meant. She was like, we're just going to get jobs that we perform. And she obviously wanted to be in London and my mum had a spare room

because my brother didn't live there anymore. So my mum was like, oh, Sarah can come and live with me. And so yeah, we live with my mum, the pair of us. in the house for lost girls, my mum used to call it. And we did like, we were tour guides on the buses together. And then we got, I did TIE for a bit, Theatre in Education. And basically her big thing was like, you just don't have to get an office job. You just have to get jobs where you still are using those skills.

And then she discovered stand-up. And I remember vividly, I've told you this before, sitting on the tube with her on the Northern Line, and she'd done a gig and got paid like five pounds. and she said, she was like, Carriott, you know, I saw some bloke and he did 10 minutes, and he got 20 pounds. So if I do that five times a week, like that's enough to cover, like food and travel, like, you know, you could actually like, just imagine you've just did five gigs a week.

I remember thinking, she's very confident. I was thinking, I don't know, this is not for me. This is a bit much, isn't it? But that's an interesting take on life, isn't it? I think people like that are interesting, and you obviously had that as well, I've shared that with her. She has a much more, like, confidence, which I definitely, and I think it comes from losing a parent quite young, actually.

For more I read about it, like, you don't have faith in the world. Because when you went to put, I love my awful metaphors, when I went to put my foot down in the deep, it wasn't there. The ground wasn't there anymore. Right. So I think I have a quite untrusting sense of the world because of bereavement. I think, yeah, Sarah has a really, like, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to do it anyway.

which I love about her. It's taken me years to go, oh, perhaps I should do that. Frank Skinner, who I work with, I find him a bit like that, in that it's just, well, why wouldn't I give it a go? Yeah, and Sarah was very good that she used to, with the stand-down at the beginning.

She was like, yeah, like I'm just going to get better, but the only way I'm going to get better is by doing it. Whereas I was like, oh, I'm shit, I can't do it. Like, this is too bad. I'm the worst person, so I'm not going to do it. But she was like, yeah, but we'll just get better. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's a... That's a healthy way of looking at it, isn't it?

Yeah, so we lived together for a beer, and then she, actually was quite a few years. And then, yeah, eventually I think it was time for us to move out at my mum's house. Yeah. It was a bit, it would be intense. But, yeah, it was a very happy period of my life, actually. How did you start getting sort of radio work and... So I went the... So she went more stand-up route.

I went improv, really. That was my improv. So I did an improv course. Love it. Black tight. And then... And then I've never been up this way. It's not silly.

This is... Oh, I love that I'm showing you this time. Yeah, I haven't seen this. This is the best bit. You're the best bit in the tennis court. People always say that when you say you haven't seen something, don't you find? Yeah, yeah. What do you mean?

That's the best been. We haven't lived. It's like the one thing I always hate is when you go on holiday with someone who's been there before. Oh, and they show you everything. I'm that person. Are you? Yeah, because I've travelled a lot. And then my husband had hardly traveled at all.

Like they went to holiday in Norfolk every year. So every time we go to him, I'm like, this is the museum, and this is where they did this. I can't, I just, I know I'm so annoying. I can't bet. And you know what? It's so well-meaning when people do, and they want to share their joy with you. I'm excited because I'm like, oh, I get to tell you, like when I was here,

my parents told me and I didn't get to enjoy it because they ruined it for me. I know, but you know, can I speak from your husband's point of view of how we feel in this scenario? Absolutely. It's a bit like we're constantly in the role. I'm going to call him up, actually, Mr. Carriad. bond with him. Yeah, he'll appreciate it. You put us in the role of the sort of

breathless, wide-eyed intern who's just arrived for the first day and we're like, it's a bit, New York, just that good picture. Yeah, yeah. And we're like, please, no, it's just... I get upset if I don't get that reaction as well. Because I'm like, you're not impressed.

And then he's like, yeah, just... What, what do you want? Yes, nice. I'm like, it's amazing, isn't it? Come on, it's amazing. So I did love me improv, and then I got into, like, sketch stuff and doing character comedy and yeah then basically i wrote my edinburgh show and that's how i and how old were you then you would have been mid-20s

no it's late 20s me and pasco were always the sky like used to the skyper as late comedy because you weren't like 21 i think i was 27 when i did my first atember show because we were trying to be serious actors for ages i was trying to do ipsil and checkoff shakespeare and no one was letting me or they were laughing a lot in the wrong places and so yeah it took me a long time, as I say, my confidence is still, I still struggle, but yeah, it was really bad then. And I did a book called The Artist's Way, because what do I do? I turned to self-help. And yeah, the Artist's Way changed my life again and was like, I suddenly had this revelation where I was like, oh, it's not about being good, it's about doing it because you want to.

And I thought, oh, I want to do comedy. But I'd always thought, yeah, but I'm shit, so I can't do it. Like, you have to be good to do it. And I thought, oh, no, I could just do it because I just want to. and that's when I wrote the Edinburgh show and I got nominated that year which was amazing

The best newcomer God, that's amazing Was that with your first one? That was my first one yeah And I didn't have an agent I didn't have PR, I didn't have anything It was just me on the free fringe And then from that I got my agent

And was able to make this My job which I So that's why I think me Me and Sarah had such long time We're trying to do it We still sometimes have this like utter utter gratitude that we get to do this.

Like, you're just like still, which sounds, I think, sometimes a bit faux. But, like, genuinely, I worked in, you know, I struggled to get the former job, so I worked in offices. I was a temp for years, you know. So I still feel like, God, that relief that I don't have to wake up

and office angels aren't, I'm waiting for them to call me. Like, it's been like 10 years since I haven't. I still have a little moment occasionally. I think, oh, God, imagine if they rang me now. I feel that about school a lot. Oh, do you? Which probably shows, yeah, how arrested my, development. I still have that carried. I feel, oh my God, thank God. Yeah. I thank God I don't have to

do P and maths. That still gets me when I talk to young people and they say like they're talking about school I think God imagine if someone said now Emily get into a tennis court get into those come on get into your pants everybody we're going to pay tennis. Do you know what's horrible we are actually outside my school which is up there as you're saying. Oh God. So did you always have a sense of kind of being an entertainer when you were growing up. Was that something, you know, I always think that you get signs of that sometimes. Yeah, I want to vote. I would say, I think I had Catherine Ryan talking about this very eloquently once that she

was like, there's this idea of this, you know, the class clown and that's a different type of comic. And I definitely, yeah, I wasn't. I was funny and performing to my very private group of friends. Yeah. So I was quite shy. But I wouldn't have been in my family. I feel, I mean, they would all.

with their eyes at this, as you can appreciate, but they wouldn't have described me as the funny one. They don't particularly, I think, find me that's amusing. And so I think that's why I went and got attention elsewhere. Yes, I understand that. My brother's very, he's less funny these days because he's got very serious.

But when we were growing up, he was hilarious and really silly and really stupid. And you would have thought he was going to be commuted. Like he mucked around in class all the time. He was always trying to make people laugh and be stupid. And he got me into comedies. So he would make me watch Blackadder and Red Dwarf and, you know, all these comedies that he was like, oh, you're going to go and watch this.

It's so funny. It's so funny. That's the only reason I knew what they were. But my family, I think, were very entertained by me. I was quite quiet. Yeah. Like, my family are quite loud people, my dad, especially. My dad and my brother very loud.

And so I think I was always in my head a little bit. Yeah. So I think I was more of, which I wanted to be, and still, I'm more of an actor in my head. because I think I live much more that's why I do character comedy I like being other people I don't like sorry if you heard me spit I just saw one micaw

and I just realised the microphone would pick that up and I automatically do my spit and sleep for one bagpipe yeah I prefer being other people I'm not as car I'm getting better why is that do you think I just always

like even as a child I would be characters in my head and talk to myself and do little plays by myself it was always but about being somebody else I used to watch Ricky Lake. Do you remember Ricky Lake's show? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I used to watch it really

carefully. And then go upstairs and continue it as if I was on it quite a lot. So I just think I used to improvise, basically, in character and be like, Ricky, let me tell you what, I don't love him. Oh, yeah, so Ricky Lake, when you're saying that I think of her, a associate of her film, hairspray, but actually she had a sort of Oprah type show, was she? Yeah, she did, it was massive. It was on Channel 4, 5 o'clock.

And it was a lot of women with the big hairspray and fringes, and then high hair, you know, those sort of spiky fringes. Yeah, the curled up fringe. I've always liked living in other worlds. I think that's what I'm best at. Will I've got a sniff, it's a bin. I know. But that's interesting when you're a kid, isn't it?

Those games. Yeah, I like to play, like, imagination games. That was my thing, rather than, like, entertaining other people. I didn't really mind if you were entertained or not. Which is what I wanted to be there. You lived in your head a bit? I live really, my mum used to call me Space Kidet. I was just, like, in my head, I think.

Which is why my childhood in my head was idyllic. because I was not there. I wasn't really there, guys. I didn't know what was going on. And I'll be like your therapist, but really, was it really that Adela? In my head, I had a wonderful time. Yeah, my brother sometimes points things like, do you remember this? I'm like, no, that was lovely.

Things started to go pretty well after Edinburgh, presumably. Yeah, they did. I mean, it's still, you know, as you know, darling, it's never easy. It's always a slug. One doesn't like to sit on one's haunches. But I think of you is, I think this is, been an incredible few years for you because... Oh.

But certainly with grief cast, do I say the grief cost? I don't know. I was, it's called the grief cast on Twitter because there was another thing called grief. Oh, I don't want to get it wrong. It's like, it feels like a terrible, it's like saying fall or the fall. You know what I mean?

So it really angers people. Yeah, yeah, I know they get really angry. I don't mind either. Or when we were really young, there was a band called Freeze. And my dad came into the room once when Christmas Top of the Pops was at all. and just said, so me and my sister, as we were singing A-E-I-O-U, which was their song,

oh, yeah. My dad said, 2,000 years of civilization and what do we get the freeze? And my sister said, Dad, it's freeze. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, what is wrong with you? You don't even know it's freeze. Like, how are you? So I didn't want to say the grief pass.

No, yeah. Either is fine. It literally is the grief pass. Grief class. That's so taken off and just touch people and really help people. as well, I think. And had some amazing guests, hashtag Emily D. One of my face.

I love doing it. I, ironically, being a podcast about decades, I find it a lot about life. Yeah, that's a lot of people say, actually, which is, oh, walking past a graveyard. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. I mean, I might have known with Carrie Ad Lloyd. She'd find a way to crowbar tombstones into our day together. Let's just go this way, Emily. I've also noticed that you cop up on a lot of, you know, you'll do have I got news for you,

and eight out of ten cats. the sort of panel shows. I mean, I'm not a stand-up. I love sand-it. I wish I, you know, it's an art form I can't do. I do different things. And I think sometimes it's quite nice on a panel show to have that. I think I bring a different energy,

which is an improviser, sketch writer, energy, character performer, which means that I like working with people. That's how improv works. It's like, I can't do it by myself, really. Some people disagree. but so I like you know the conversation we have becomes the joke rather than here's my material so that's why I like doing them because I like sitting I like watching them at home so when I'm on one I'm like oh this is lovely I'm able to set join in and say things so yeah I just like working with people

so when you do something like have I got news for you do you feel scared oh I'm terrified terrified have you definitely because that's one I watched as a kid and that's actually I have to say because I have experienced death and so anytime I do anything, I think, well, we're not dead. So come on, guys, that's that perspective here. So even when I'm very nervous, I think, well, no one's dying in front of me. So it can't be that bad. But when I went to Have I Got News the first time, I saw that red background.

My knees buckled. I walked into the studio and I was like, oh, oh, God. Because it's just like, I used to watch that with my family, my dad and my brother on a Friday night. But you know what? I love that you say that because I think so many people wouldn't admit that. Oh, God. Yeah. Because they sort of want you to think. Oh yeah, yeah, did a little

Have I got, you know, a little hygnify. Part of the deal, guys, that's my life. No, no, terrified. Some of them are nicer. And not that I've got news for you is actually very nice, but I think when, you know,

you can't help but it, it's a bit like, they'll kill me. You know, we met that old older lady earlier. Obsessed. Obsessed. But that's how you feel with going to have I got news for you because it's a very established show. I was a teenager watching Ian and Paul do that show,

and I used to think they were the, funniest, cleverest people. And not that. It sounds like I've changed my mind. Before my eyes were open. Yeah, I just think it's, you know, whereas when you do, maybe if you're like eight out of ten cats says countdown, it's more people of your generation

that you've grown up with in comedy. Yeah. So you don't feel quite like, oh my God. Like I said, I saw that red background and I was like, what the fuck am I doing? This is what, this is the telly. I'm on the, what's happening? So yeah, but I love doing them.

I think they're a lot of fun. because I have this history of death, I feel like I can't... Yeah, it's a bit like you're saying, like, when people are like, I'm not someone who just wants everything to be funny, and I think some comedians are, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I think most comedians are.

Yeah, and I'm just, I'm not, and I think some comedians don't like me or don't get on with me that well sometimes, because I'm... Because I'm, when we... Before a gig, I'm the sort of person who goes, oh, hey, how are you? And they hate that.

I hate that. And I genuinely mean, how are you? You're weird. I know, and they all just want the, you know, like the sort of quick banter or the, I can see them look at me like, why are you trying to emotionally connect with me? I'm like, because isn't that what? What do we do? What do we do? There's a tiny, tiny buggy going towards. Tell me about ostentatious as well. Yes, the other thing I do, yeah. So, um, ostentatious is an improvised, here's a spiel. Ascentation is an improvised Jane Austen show. Yes, so it's ostentatious with an A. Yes, it's not a stentatious, it's not a sort of, or a sort of, all

the box. I don't know. Yes, I do a lot of weird things. It's quite hard to sum them all up. And we dress in full regency gear and we have a violinist or pianist that accompanies us. We get a title from the audience. So we've had things like Mansfield Shark, queer eye for a regency guy, Strictly come Darcy, Double Darcy, 50 shades of Darcy. I just want to talk a bit about your own dog experience. So when you were growing up, yeah, taught me fully through the dog scenario. So we're just, we're just to talk about your dog scenario. didn't have one, one was very little. Yeah. A lot of allergies in the family.

Brother with asthma, dad had asthma. And so, yeah, we never allowed one. And then eventually, I right, it was about 12. My mom was like, we can get a poodle. We can get a poodle because they don't shed. And so me and my brother were like, oh my God, we can have a dog. And we had a very nice lady who lived near us who worked at the RSPCA. And she promised my mum, I hope this is allowed.

And when a poodle came in, she'd let her know. Because obviously it's very rare. That's what I said to you. It's very rare to get poodles. They don't tend to be dropped off at shelters as much. No, they don't. They're very fancy. You're highly in demand, Willow.

And she rang my mum, and she said we've got a poodle. And this little grey poodle, same size as Willow, called Pedro. We didn't name it. Pedro the poodle came to live with us. But he was insane. He was insane, yeah. So he had been with an old lady who he'd obviously adored. They like one person normally poodles

And she'd died And then he'd gone to another family with young kids And it was quite clear that he'd been abused at the family Right And he was terrified of men So the RSPCA thought the man of the family had hit him Oh I know

And so when he came to us he was 12 So he was very old boy But also very nice to get an old dog from rescue centre Because they're all trained Do you want to sit down? Yeah, shall we? So he hated my dad, this dog Like literally hated and despised him

Which was quite difficult Oh, Willow's sitting on your knee, Carrie. Are you trying to get on my knee? Oh, Willow, hello! Oh, you've really bonded, Carriad. Look at me, tired desperate to take a picture. This is the movie scene where they'd be playing just the two of us to a montage of you two.

Look how we took it. I took a cute picture of me and Willow. I very much identify with poodles. They're nervous and neurotic. They've got curly hair that's difficult to manage. Do you know what I like about Willow? I think there's a sense of, you said earlier, I'm going to get to know you before.

I make my mind up. Which is what I'm like. I'm not like, I can't just... Me too. I have to be like, oh, can I trust you? What happened to Pedro? So Pedro, he did die eventually, like just of old aid, and I feel bad for Pedro.

So he died, I would say probably a year after my dad. So it was no one really cared. And I mean that. I only you're in the club and you can understand. Yeah, you get it. You know, we'd lost my dad. My dad died. Six months later, my grandpa died.

He was like, you know, one of my favourite people in the world and was my dad's dad and he very much sort of gave up on life. And so we had all the, and then some great aunts died and it was like a year of death. As lovely as he was a really mad dog. Like he barked all the time. But he loved my mum so much. He loved my mum.

And if my mum wasn't around, I was mini-mummy. So he'd like, look, he'd be like, as long as she wasn't there, like if I took him for a walk, he was like, right, now you're in charge. It was like deputy. But if she was there, he was like, fuck you. Get out of my way. You'd be like, I used to be your boy. He's like, no, not anymore.

She's back. She's back. So it was, and he really hated men. So, like, any man couldn't touch him at all. Even, like, nice men who were like, no, I'm just trying to say hello. He would, he would, like, cower and bark and, yeah. Bless him. But if you're, it was nice.

It was like, if you're a woman, he was like, you're my best pal. So that was your last. And obviously then you were living in the, what did your mom call the house? She lived at the house of lost girls. The house of lost girls. Yeah, she didn't want another dog. So that wasn't. And she'd had dogs growing up.

They had a lovely Labrador called Clio. She was like, I don't want another thing coming into house that's going to die. No. So we didn't have any more dogs for a bit. And she likes going away for the weekend. Fair enough. And then my husband is dog obsessed. Dog obsessed.

So they, I then when. How did you meet your husband, by the way? We met at school. Oh, shut up. I know. I don't tell people. I'm only telling you, I never said that out loud. I don't tell people that.

I met at school, yeah. So he was friends with my brother. Like that old classic. He did you have a crush? Yeah, yeah, of course. Like really bad, my brother's older. So he was like, you know, I thought, oh, he's so wonderful. Do you know, when you said that, I had a frithon.

Because I imagined myself being that age. Yeah. I had a crush on my friend Abigail. I'm going to say this because it's time this man, you know, I never said this. And he's about 50 now. Yeah, yeah. I had a crush on her brother, Christopher, my friend Abigail. And I was so in love with him.

And I can remember just, it was like I was having a relationship with him. Yeah, in your head, that intense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I used to have conversations with him while I was in my lessons, you know, like in your head. It's so intense. But yours was normal. But you did?

I married. I married him. Well. Eventually, eventually, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You didn't, by any chance, this is what I did is when I broke my arm when I was at their country house and I was really, I remember the first thing feeling, the first moment I felt elation because he would come in the ambulance with me.

Oh great. When you're a teenager, any kind of tragedy is amazing. Don't tell me, my dad died. It was like, guys, my dad died. Some attention, please. And is he in the same world? So he's a filmmaker. He's a filmmaker, yeah. So it's quite nice because he gets it, but he's not like, he's not in comedy or that kind of. Are you glad you're not with another performer? Yes. Why? Because I think they're mad. I just like that he is a writer. He's got very writery brain. So he, when I talked him about ideas or material, he doesn't then perform them back at me. He goes, oh, that's interesting. Have you thought about moving that bit there?

And I think, oh, yeah, that's good idea. So I like that. Like, he's very good structurally. So I think sometimes performers get a bit competitive with each other, can't I? You get two performers together. Can do, not all. But I like that it's not, there's no competition in that way. Well, I think you have my sister. Your lovely, lovely sister, Rachel. She? I was so sweet that you. you remember her name. I find that very touching actually. But she had a theory called kings and courtiers. So she would say, well if we'd see a couple, I sometimes think those fractious relationships. My sister would say two kings have got together. Ah yes.

You can't have two kings. Two kings. I completely agree with her. Yeah. She said everyone and obviously it just means that what you have to have is just that slight sense of happy to be a courtier, happy to be a king. Oh look at this. There's a very cute. dog going. What is that? That's a shih Tzu. It's a shih Tzu. I think it's a shitsu. With extremely long hair. I've never seen anything like it. I've never seen one with that hair that long. It's basically, I mean, I thought my dog was eccentric looking. It looks like a small lion, a small grey stripy lion. It's got a grey mop of hair. It's a bit like in the dog world, that dog has got long grey hair all over its face. It's a bit, in the dog world, it would be the equivalent of one of those. When I grow old, I'm going to wear purple.

Yes, yeah, yes. Yes, a Northland and lady. Yeah, an archaic, fabulous, North London lady. Anyway, Kings and Couriers. Yes, too, King. I agree. I completely agree. Yeah. Yeah, because you, but it sounds like he's a quarter, but I was trying to think like he's

like, no, because what he can be, I mean, the game gets very complicated. Yeah, yeah. You can also have Quiet King. Yes, that's true. That's true. So Quiet King means that they just don't, they don't have the look at me, Jean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think he's Quiet King actually. Yeah, and I would say probably a... Rout Courier or King? bossy queen. I'm a bossy queen. So I'm not like it's one of those with everyone thinks I boss him around Everyone think oh god poor you know Carrie Ed's always telling him what to do but actually no one tells that man what to do He does exactly what he wants very quietly stubborn So but but the overall impression the comedy is tiny me. He's very tall bossing him around telling him what to do

I love that. Yeah, but he actually does exactly what the fuck he wants and you've got um You have a child we do have a child. Yeah, I got little girl. How's that? sort of I mean I was going to say how has it changed you what cliched question but I just mean I haven't had kids because I forgot and I sometimes think yeah it's an amazing thing to do and I just people say you're never the same afterwards and I can really see I can imagine that's true and how I compare it to death a lot which annoys some of my listeners but I do I think it's the only thing I can relate to in that my life was you know after my dad died my life was completely changed irrevocably and if you're in the club you understand you understand you understand you understand you understand that. And the same thing after I had a baby, it was like, oh, life's never going to be the same again. When someone dies, you're having to deal with a huge absence of a person. And everywhere you look, you just see absence of like, they're not there. There's a gap. There's this massive gap. And when you have a baby, you're dealing with presence. Yes. I see that. God, there's just this person everywhere. And then why is it? And it's such a weird,

you know, they're not the same at all, but they're just very closely related that it's the same kind of physical shift. Yeah. Like when you lose someone, you have to somehow feel that. I mean, you never fill it, but you know what I mean?

Your life shifts around that hole where they were and you learn to sort of absorb that hole and kind of build your life around it. When you have a baby, it's like you have to somehow like move your body again and deal with the fact that there's more person

and that you can't just lie in the bed. There's a nut, like when you get with someone, you know, when you've been single and, which has happened to me. And then you're with someone, you're like,

why is there no space in the bed? Yeah, that feels like, you're like, oh, I've got to think about someone else to get, like I have to get her shoes on. That's the biggest thing for me is like you don't walk out the house going, well, I'm ready, you're like, I've got to put someone else's shoes on. It's the picture and the frame, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. So you become the, although people always say that, that you become the frame and you'll picture. Yeah, yeah. Although I always say my parents always stayed the picture and Rachel and I were sort of the Jackson Pollock dors of paint on it. Yeah, there's different versions of it. Yeah, but I think that's pretty.

that's um i sense that with parents and it's something actually i do look and i think god there's a part of me that's a really nice thing to have actually just that sense of i think it does i've watched it with friends i certainly think with frank skinner he's changed a lot he's he's just he's so patient and calm with buzz in a way that it makes you very patient he really is it teaches you because you're dealing with it a bit like when someone dies and you know you they've just gone you can't argue with them anymore and that's in There's that point where you're like, I want to tell you I'm pissed off you're dead and that you can't.

And the same with the baby, you're like, I want you to not do that and they just do whatever they want to do. So it's that same level of infuriation. If you think, oh my God, this person does not listen to me. And you have to come to a point where you sort of accept it. But yeah, I think it's, you know, it should change you really. But that's not to say if you haven't had them, your life is somehow diminished. The same is if you haven't lost someone, that doesn't mean,

or you don't know the magic of life that I do. Because your life is different. Yes, that's true. So I feel like... The exotic nature of Northland. We're actually not doing this in Northland. Yeah, I know. That sounds like Hungarian.

Yeah, it's fundamentally changed who I am and how I see the world. And I haven't felt like that. I haven't felt that bigger change since my dad died. So that's why I compare them all the time. But I think if you hadn't lost someone, perhaps you wouldn't make the connection between death all the time. As we know, I do that quite a lot.

But this is why I love you. I know. I love you, because we get it. We get it. Some people get it. We get it. We get it. We don't know.

I know. I always feel like, but look, if I don't have a dad and you've lost your family, can't me be smuggled about something? Jesus Christ, look what we've lost. Give me a bit of smugness about feeling like I lived. Come on. Look at me something out of this situation. I'm not saying I'm right. Just so this is my opinion on it, Willow.

I could sit with you on this park bench in North London talking to you all day about death with Willow the people. Oh, me too. But I need to let you get back. Yeah. I really enjoyed our chat. I loved it. I love talking to you.

And I wanted to say that everyone should, if you haven't already, you should listen to grief cast. Oh, bless you. And listen to your episode. I honestly, you highly recommend your episode. It's a very inspirational episode. Well, I will say recommend. So many people, every interview I've ever done,

I think that's the thing that people come up to me the most about. Oh, really? Yeah, I was walking the dog actually not long ago. In haps the teeth and a woman came up and she said, is that Ray? The famous Ray. And I said, yeah. And then we, she said, I just wanted to say, I heard your briefcast. And I get that a lot.

and I think people love it. So, yeah, so please, you must listen to that because it's really life-changing, actually. It's not as depressing as you think. That's what I always caveat it with. It's not as depressing as you suspect it might be. When someone says they're talking about death. You know what?

If it does move you, that's okay. Yeah. It's okay to cry. Yeah, yeah. It's okay to laugh and cry. Yeah, laugh and cry at the same time. Yeah, that's all right. It's a part of the human experience.

Yeah, exactly. Isn't it, Willow? Thank you so much. Have you in love Willow? I am going to put Willow in my bag and take him home. He's sitting at my lap. He's made the choice, not me. He's chosen me. You know, remember bouncing and neighbours when he chose Mrs Mangal? She had the biscuits. That's what's happened. Willow's chosen me. So let's tell Jane that Willow's mine.

Willow's found a new home with North London's answer to Mrs Mangle. I'll take that. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate review and subscribe on iTunes.