Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Dawn O’Porter

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

This week Emily and Ray took a stroll in Hyde Park with Dawn O’Porter. They chatted about Dawn’s pet history, dealing with grief, meeting her husband, Chris O’Dowd and her new book, Cat Lady. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, look, Torn. Oh, baby. Did you have a little drink in a puddle? It's like a Bear Gwills documentary, isn't it? I was trudging through forgotten lands. The forgotten lands of wild terrain. This week on walking the dog, I took a stroll with novelist Dawn O' Porter in London's High Park. Dawn lives in L.A. now, so she was over here on a visit

and desperately missing her dog's meatloaf and puffin. How brilliant are those names, by the way. So I felt it was only right to get her a doggy fix for her a date with Raymond. And it was total love at first sight. I was almost a little bit jealous. Dawn has a lot to recommend her. She's very engaging and warm and funny, but she's also totally obsessed by animals,

as is her husband, the actor Chris O'Dow. So it was really lovely and moving hearing about their shared pet history, as well as so much else about her life. I want to also say her book Cat Lady is out now, and it's a brilliant story about defying labels and living the life you want, so I thoroughly urge you to give it a read. Enough of me, let's hand over to the woman herself.

Here's Dawn and Raymond. It's had a little poo-poo. It looks like it. Sweet baby. What a barnet. Oh my God. I can tell you the same, Dawn. Thanks.

I need to cut my fringe. I realise that my fringe has gone the millimeter too far. Oh, Dawn. Look at that. Come here. Sorry. Was he complaining? I don't know.

I mean, my default setting is always the... Also great hair. Hello! We've met some people who like the dog. That's a real babe magnet. Bye-bye. I'll just put his lead on, Dawn. I think it might be leads only.

You know when people come over to you when you've got a cute dog and they've got kids and they're just desperate for some entertainment for their kids and you almost get stuck with the child. And you're like, dude, I know my dog's going to be. you but I'm not here, I'm not your nanny. Go, go now. No, just me. I know, I have felt that.

Well, when you're on a walk without your kids and you just seem to gather other people's kids, it's not what I'm out here for, guys. Well, that's the thing, is that he is, I sometimes, I've sent him in, though, quite a few times, if I see a kid crying on the street, I'm so confident

of his ability to turn, that frown upside down yeah that I kind of I get really affronted if it doesn't work and I look at the child and I think well obviously behavioural problems just a cold heart that child's going nowhere come here Ray but you know when you um kids whose parents clearly don't like animals and they're just desperate desperate to touch your dog and you kind look at their parents you say why are you so cruel why you denying this child animals I've got I'm so obsessed by him though daughter I know you'll relate to this yeah because you're all I think you're probably more obsessed by animals than me I am pretty

which is why why I was kind of you had me well before hello and um if someone doesn't isn't sufficiently blown away by him just walking down the street actually I might say something out loud I'll say don't worry you I obviously not dog people Don't really get to you, little one. No, my beloved potato who died earlier this year, he was the kind of dog where people would slow down their cars and stop and have to cuddle him and stroke him.

And we'd take him everywhere with us, and you'd find him on someone's lap at a party, and that person would be feeling very special because of the way that he made you feel he was one of those. And if I ever, on the rare occasion, encountered someone who didn't have that reaction to him, I was like, what would it take for you to feel? How can you not love this animal? He was just adorable.

Well, I want to talk about lovely potato. So I'm with the wonderful Dornow Porter. I'm here with Raymond and we're in Hyde Park. And we're here. This isn't your home. You don't live in Hyde Park. No, it isn't, but we used to live kind of locally to here. We just sold our house in the last month actually. and so Hyde Park would be our dog walk and Chris would come with our dog.

Potato every morning, do a good hour long stomp around Hyde Park. I love it. And we should say for anyone who doesn't know, that's Chris O'Dowd, who's born's husband. And you were telling me about potato earlier because that was your family dog. Well, it was your dog.

You guys got it when you kind of not long after you'd first met. Yeah, we got potato about a year into our relationship. We're living out in L.A. And Chris and I didn't know each other that well. I think it was pretty fresh. but I was just craving a dog and so I suggested that we fostered so we fostered potato

who wasn't called he was called Simba when we fostered him and that night we went out for dinner and we were so excited about the fact that we're going to pick up this dog to foster the next morning and we were wondering what we could call him and we just kept ordering potato dishes

because that's what we love and so let's call him potato and so we took him home the next day and almost immediately knew that it was going to be very challenging to give him back and so after a few weeks of a lot of back and forth

because Chris was really nervous about the responsibility of having a dog, which is absolutely right. You won't be able to hurt. Well, do you know what? I already had a cat that I was ferrying around the world with me. And so it was kind of a situation where Chris had to be 100% on board with having a dog because I was 100% like the cat one.

So it really did need to be his decision. And I remember the day that he said that we had to take him back because he needed to be adopted by somebody. And Chris just said, just go for a walk because you can't be the ones to take him back. So I was just in absolute bits. And so I went for a walk. And I said, walking back down the hill, I could see Chris outside the pet shop on his phone.

Potato was a rescue, like, you know, the pet shops kind of have them in there. And I could see him on the phone. So I just kind of stood back. And then he got off the phone. And I walked up to him. He saw me. And Chris just went, let's go get our guy. We just went in on the doctor.

He was like a film. It was like. film and we just went in and adopted him and this dog potato needed so much love he had terrible separation anxiety it was it was like we were just thrown into parenting and loved it absolutely loved it until he died very suddenly in january and absolutely tore us apart and it's just still horrific but he was a real one and a million feel very lucky just feel so lucky that we had him at all I'm so sad that you lost. I know, you know, it's coming, don't you, with pets?

There's nothing can do about it. Like when the cat died, it was very sudden, but she was in my arms, and it was, you know, it was everything that you would want. And then, but he was just, I don't want to go into the details of what happened, if you don't mind, but I just, it was just, it was not supposed to have happened, and it was very sudden, and it absolutely shattered us. And, and yeah, it's just a very real, very real grief. Well, it's something that you cover in your brilliant book.

I mean, I loved it for so many reasons. I'm a huge fan of your writing anyway, but I think the themes in this really appeal to me. I don't know if you can wonder why. I mean, it's not a cat. Hello, sweetheart. You're like a little pussy cat, aren't you? You're so gorgeous.

I think he is like a cat. You see, I think I am a cat lady. Right. I couldn't really cope with a big Labrador or... Well, that's the thing about small dogs, is they are somewhere in the vicinity of cat. Great. It's definitely, my parents always used to,

they always had border collies, and they always used to say how they didn't like small dogs. Look at that dog trying to get a cameo on your podcast. Some people will do anything, it's embarrassing. I know. They're so desperate. My parents were like, we don't like small dogs. They're all yappy, and they were just kind of, you know, they just really generalised about small dogs.

And then potato is kind of medium-sized, but verging on small, almost kind of a tall Jack Russell. And he completely stole their hearts. They were like, okay, this is an incredible dog. And so I see little dogs like this now. I never thought I would have a small one, but we just rescued a dog who is,

she's somewhere between Jack Russell's Spaniel and Chihuahua, but she's going to be small like a chihuahua. I'm like, did you even live in Hollywood for 15 years? If you don't come home with a chihuahua. That's why I never thought I'd have one. But since I've had a small dog, I now see small dogs completely differently and love them, and he is just delicious. Well, I got him, that's partly why I loved your book, full disclosure, was, and I should

tell, I shouldn't just keep saying your book, that's no good to you. So do you want to formally introduce your book to us and the themes of it? Well, my book is called Cat Lady, inspired by me. It's a Lulium, Cat Lady. But after losing my cat Lulu in 2020 and then I wanted to write a book about pet grief because it was so devastating and I loved my cat and I'd like to challenge the stereotype of the cat lady and then embrace it because I am a crazy cat lady proudly. But then just as I was writing the book kind of near the beginning of the whole process, Potato died very suddenly. And so I was grieving hard throughout writing this very unexpectedly. I mean, you know, I thought I already had enough material to write with when the cat died

and then I was literally launched back into it all again as I was writing the book. But I think the book is about many things, but one theme is pet grief and I just don't, I don't know if it gets the attention that it deserves because it can totally rip you apart. Well, I want to talk more about your book, but I want to go back to your childhood dog, and your experience is really your origin story. So you grew up, you were born in Scotland? I was born in Scotland up in Alexandria. And when I was, oh look, there's a serpentine, lovely.

You always know where you are when you see the water. I, when I was around one, my mum and dad got divorced. And so my mum moved with, my sister and I were down to Guernsey, where her family was. So I've lived in Guernsey, it very much feels like home. Scotland was somewhere that we went in the holidays, but Guernsey was. where I grew up. Because your dad's from Scotland. Yeah, dad's still up in Scotland. So Scottish. Yeah. And I'm very proud of my Scottish roots. It's two very different worlds that I was split between as a child, Guernsey, to, you know, my dad was a hotelier and owned bars

and restaurants in Scotland and just in the hospitality trade, which was entirely different to what I was doing in Guernsey, but all great. And you were, um, you had a lot of, um, you had the performing gene, I feel, from a pretty young age, didn't you? Yeah, I think so. I was a bit of a show off. I just really, really loved attention when I was growing up. Still, very much do. I love people that admit that. Do you know what I mean?

There's something so liberating. Well, I think there was, like, this kind of insult of, like, you're such an attention seeker. I'm like, and why is that a terrible thing that I want to be noticed and to, you know, That was how I used to feel. It's kind of, it fizzles off a lot as you get older. That kind of, well, attention gets a bit exhausting after a while. You actually just, like, would rather not have much attention. A little bit is wonderful, but the amount that I used to crave was just like, God, how, you know,

it's just, you couldn't be in a room with people, just being a normal person. Just trying to make everyone laugh all the time. It just must have been so annoying. I don't do that so much anymore. Actually, I'm saying that, and I don't know if that's true. Interesting, isn't it? Because obviously, the very cold psychology thing, and I'm sure you've heard this, people would say, well, you lost your mum at a young age. Yeah. And that, there's some connection to that. It's 100% connected. And my sister kind of went the other way. She didn't want attention, which is another, you know, absolute, like, result of losing a mother. But I was desperate for that. I was desperate for people to, like, make me feel the way that a mother would make you feel. and just to notice me and appreciate me and love me.

And also, I was surrounded by a lot of sad people. And I don't want to make anyone sadder by saying I'm sad. So I would, you know, roly-poly into the room and jump up in jazz hands and try and make everyone laugh. Kind of took on the jester roll. Did you feel that then? You're sort of feeling, I need to make the atmosphere better. Or you don't want to be the one to make it worse.

And yes, absolutely, I remember feeling that. And there's just no coincidence that I like to think. think whether my mum had died or not, it'd still be the same person in a way and still probably have wanted to do the same things. I think even before I knew she was ill, I loved being, you know, the centre of attention, but it definitely got ramped up after she died. I was just very much, I just very much remember just thinking, I just want to make everyone happy because that's easier to be around. And you, um, you moved, you and your sister, you live with your grandparents. Yeah. So when my mum moved together,

Guernsey we moved in with my grandparents and so when she died I was still living there and when she died in our in the bedroom that later became our bedroom for the next three years we then my grandparents just got too old and we had kind of strange moments where I was I was supposed to be going to the cinema with a boy bearing in mind we're like 9-10 and his dad was like right in command to the governor on Guernsey a very respectable family and lovely people. They'd invited me to go to the cinema with their son Richard. And I was, they came to pick me up and my grand just wouldn't let me go because she said, no, boys will try and do things to her when she's watching the movie and boys do this to girls. And so the mother

knew my auntie and called her and said, look, Jane, I think Florence is having a bit of a breakdown about Dawn leaving the house. And so my auntie kind of came around and said, listen, Flo, everything's all right and you know I know the family and she's safe and I was able to go to the cinema but I think my aunt and uncle realized at that time that as my sister and I were getting older my sister was you know 12 and that leaving us with our grandparents just wasn't going to work and so at that point that was when it was decided that we'd go and live with my aunt and uncle and I was heartbroken for my grand because it was very sad and I remember her crying telling us in bed it's time for you to go and live with Jane and Tony but I also remember feeling

really excited because my aunt and uncle, that was a happier house and they had animals. They had two cats, dogs, geese, ducks, tortoise. It's really fun and I loved it there. I found animals to me when I was a kid were my grandparents didn't have any. He used to go into day with my aunt and uncle at the weekend and I would just sit with the dogs, sit with the cats for hours and I would talk to them. I would go for, you know, Goenzy was very kind of safe back there. So I'd go for long, long cliff walks with the dogs

and I would just spend hours with them. But collies you have? Yeah, they always had board of collies, but there was also a bearded collie called Aker that was their son's dog, but they ended up having. And Aker was my, just the love of my life. And I used to walk down to the beach and just sit with her and just talk to her for hours.

I used to ride my bike and she'd run alongside me. We were just together all the time. Dawn, can I just say, how is this, we've got some, swans here with Raymond. I mean I feel you know a bit about animals. How do you envisage this meeting going? Well I mean he seems pretty chill. I think the swans are so used to the dogs as long as they don't go out to them bark at them. See Potato had chased them which was always terrible. Should we give it a go? I think

these swans have seen it all. They've been my son Valentine comes here and he sees just like some ducks or swans just resting and he just runs into the middle of it. And people sitting on the benches, eating their lunch, just get like, waxed in the face by a thousand feathers and wings. And so I've got my, I'm used to children. So dogs are actually a lot calmer in this situation. I mean, swans are apparently quite vicious. They always scare me a bit. But surely, hello sweetheart. You were so brave. You were so brave. You just went up to the swan. I know. I love your hair. And it is hair. It's not fur. It was hair.

So you were telling me about Guernsey? Yeah, for the animals. I just loved the animals. Yeah. And they had Siamese cats and dogs, and I just thought they were absolutely brilliant. I loved them so much. So as soon as I left home, went to university,

and then when I got to move to London, I was like, right, I'm going to get a cat. And my parents were like, Dawn, you don't understand the responsibility. You can't do this. And I got my cat Lili when I was about 24 and dedicated my life to her. Traveled everywhere with her. I took her everywhere, turning up to people's houses, going home for Christmas, cat in a box. And Liliu and I just were like two homeless people, just kind of sofa surfing for years.

It was awesome. What do you think there was also that sense? I really understand that. I think you're possibly trying to create your own family as well and your own sense of a home. Because it's quite unusual to have that responsibility you in your age. It was so unusual. Like it was my friends that I lived with at the time, we'd talk about her, she was our child. But I suddenly had this, you know, I couldn't just kind of spend the night out.

I couldn't just go away for the weekend. I had to be really responsible. And I think a cat, obviously you've got way more freedom than the dog, but it definitely is your first experience of like being responsible for something else when you've left home. But I really enjoyed it. I really loved, I loved keeping her alive. I was, I have, I had times when I was so poor and I was so and I couldn't afford to feed myself. But I would, like, Lidu had no idea, there was always a bowl of biscuits on the floor. And it gave me such a sense of pride

when I was like feeling, just I was achieving nothing. And, but I was somehow managing to kind of, you know, keep this cat flea free with a clean litter box and a bowl of biscuits. And I was just, it was just a lovely, lovely part of my life. They just, I think, if you're an animal lover, then the responsibility of,

animals isn't such a big deal. If you suddenly find yourself with an animal but you're not really an animal person, it's very stressful. But she was a Siamese cat, so she was hard work. She sounded like someone was being murdered and and just was very demanding.

You know, just have very emotional reactions to not being with me. So if I had to have someone look after her if I was working or going away or something like that, I would come back and she would punish me, she'd peel my pillow, scream through the night. Where have you been? And jealous. Like, so jealous.

Oh, she was awful. People, and also, you know, when you've got a cat like that, I think Simon's cats are beautiful. I now only rescue because, but when I got Lilo, I didn't know about rescuing. But they are such a personality. And I just love it when cats are really part of the family and they've got big personalities and they're almost dog-like, which is, she used to play fetch. And she was like having a dog, but I didn't have to walk her.

It was brilliant. I loved her. I loved her. She was the love of my life. And all of my friends and everyone close to me just thinking, oh God, when she goes, this is going to be hard. And it was. I was absolutely heartbroken.

And you, well, you mentioned that you were at Liverpool. Yeah. Because you went to drama school in Liverpool. I did. I went to Macca's drama school, which was a great experience. But it was where during my acting degree, I realised I had no interest in acting. which was a bit disappointing. After all that growing up on Guernsey just waiting to go

off to London and just get my name up in lights and be a famous actress. When I actually came to acting I was like no sorry not feeling it. Did you know Dawn you didn't it just didn't feel just I wanted to be yourself I wanted to be myself I was always I just I really enjoyed acting and I did I really liked it I really and I really liked it but I was like I I don't want to make a career out of this. I don't know. And then I would, you know, do some radio modules and do some radio hosting on the kind of student radio.

And I'm like, this is it. This is what I love doing. And there wasn't much opportunity back then to write, which was always the thing I wanted to do. But it doesn't really happen during my university years. It was more about, it was a performing arts college. But whenever I did things like radio or my friend and I, rather than doing a play,

we did a TV show, a bit like the priory, that old show that used to be on TV with Zoe Ball and Jamie Fixon and we kind of created our version of it and I loved that and presenting and talking and being myself and as soon as I was given a script

I just would panic and couldn't do it but if someone said just fill five minutes then I could do that so in your third year you have to do a play and you are marked on it and I just said to them

I'm so so I just don't want to do a play I'm not interested. So can I go down to London and I got a job in a work experience on Beziel and Skinner Run planned with Avalon Productions? And I said, if I saw out this work experience placement and I can persuade the producer to mark me,

can I do that instead of doing the play? And they agreed to it, which I thought was amazing. Because I don't think they liked me very much by this point, which is probably why they agreed to it. And so that's what I did. And then that work experience placement led on to a runner's job, like about a year later when I moved to London.

And so you worked on Budil and Skinner on plan Yeah, I was like How was that? Because you know I'd do a radio show with Frank Skinner? Do you? I didn't know that. On Saturdays, absolutely. I'm his co-hosts So I'm going to, I will be telling him this. I loved it.

You got to say that now, Dawn. I should have waited. No, but I did. It was so exciting. I was like, this is the environment I want to be in. I found TV way more exciting than the theatre world. And I just loved the way, watching the way the programme was made. actually in the PR office but they that same company did everything so um I thought Frank was one of the most impressive people I've ever seen I was like that his ability to like be on camera and be funny was so exciting to me I love the way that TV was made I just found the

whole thing utterly thrilling and knew that that's I still had in my heart that I wanted to be on camera but I knew that I wanted to be really happy behind the camera too so that's when I started to apply for jobs in them and then my next actual paid job was booking audiences for the ruby wax show and for princess productions so you've and then i obviously first became aware of you you were a journalist as well and a writer and i remember becoming aware of you obviously with your documentaries on BBC three you did a series of i felt you were kind of almost being pictured as the kind of female louis the roo at that point yeah it felt a bit like that kind of having these kind of immersive experience. I found being called a journalist so awkward because I was like, I always,

I'm aware of taking a title that other people have trained for. And I never called myself a journalist back then, but because I was doing documentaries, essentially, I suppose I was some sort of journalist, but I was like, you know, wearing ridiculous clothes and going and living as a thing. And of course that is a form of journalism, but whenever anyone would introduce me as a journalist, I'd be like, well, okay, it's just a bit awkward and embarrassing. Just massive imposter syndrome. Did you feel during that period? Because you did so many, pretty high profile,

they became your shows. Yeah. And you did things like, you know, you had to slim down, the size zero thing, which I think, looking back, that was kind of the first time that I'd ever really been tackled in that way. Yeah.

You know, that I remember as a woman being very aware of it suddenly, and linking, it was obviously fucking hideous what you were going through. It was. But that film just hit the exact right moment. Because then after that, there were different versions of it on different channels. And I was just very lucky that mine was with the BBC and it was first.

And I just had this amazing production team and it was produced so well. And what I loved about that program was how funny it was, but how hard hitting the journalism was, which I felt very uncomfortable calling myself journalists, like I said. But I just think it was so perfectly toned for the time. It wasn't like, don't, don't, do it, but it was like, these are like normal. women who are being made to feel like they need to be size zero for what and let's find out where this is coming from and where is this problem why is this happening it was I really that was probably still my proudest TV moment thought that film for the time was perfect now you bring

it up to modern day there's loads of things that I wouldn't say now or do I think one thing we did do is we skinny shamed and you know we did lots of things that now we know it wasn't balanced but at the time for what we knew and what we were doing it was a really really brilliant film and I was so proud of it and I was so proud of the laughs and I was so proud of the hard bits as well I've got the feeling that you weren't altogether comfortable with that kind of fame because you were getting pretty well known at that point is that fair to say I don't know if I don't if I was I mean at the time it was all it was all really fun but I wasn't being I wasn't like being invited to celebrity parties or like being invited to any award shows.

I wasn't really outside of the... I mean, this thing about the world of documentaries is pretty grotty. It's really long hours on locations, staying in pretty shitty hotels, eating not great food. And you're working really hard. You're working really, really hard. So it didn't feel very glamorous. And the fame side of it, it was just before social media. And there was any kind of...

of but the internet was there it was like it was comments under things but there was very kind of little interaction with you know people but I feel like I just got it was just this little moment where people could reach me but not but it wasn't you didn't I didn't feel famous and I didn't but I suppose what I mean is there was probably more scrutiny and focus on you yes there was I mean it would be as a writer yes definitely I mean there were people loved me and people absolutely fucking hated me. And it was like, oh God, obviously you know that not everyone's going to like you, but Jesus, people can be so mean.

And you're like, wow, okay. I had a public email address at the time, which was on my website. People had a really interesting situation where this man kept emailing me really, really abusive emails, about how much he hated me, how fat I was, how shit I wasn't my job. But all the kind of stuff that really went in and it really did affect me. I was like, because what he was saying, it wasn't far removed. Like, he was kind of true, if that's how he felt. And I could see myself in what he was saying.

And I was like, oh my God, this man, and he just kept emailing me. And there was no blocking back then. It was just, I could just keep seeing these emails. And anyway, what he was saying really stayed with me. and it was really nasty. And then about a year later, I still had that email address, which I don't have anymore.

An email popped up from him, and I was like, okay, deep breath, here we go. And he just said, I just wanted to say that I'm so deeply sorry. I never replied to him. He didn't even know I've ever got them, but it had obviously been playing on his mind. And he said, I'm so deeply sorry.

My wife was leaving me. I was hurting. I was really unhealthy. I lost my job. Life was so terrible. saw you on TV, you know, having a good time and I just wanted to hurt you. And I am really sorry. And I replied. And I said, I read every single one of your emails and every single one of them really hurt me and I really appreciate you sending this one. And it was a real, like, and we had a

back and forth for a while. And I was like, God, but it changed my, I was very lucky that that happened at that point in my career because it changed how I deal with people's aggression and negativity towards me. And I always, almost, most times, see. it as that's their problem not my problem. Yeah. Someone is, like, people might think not like, there's loads of people on TV I don't like, but I would never write to them to tell them.

When someone does that, they're actively, it's not about you. I would very often, if I got trolled, as we know it's become called now, I would respond and engage, and every single time I did that, the correspondence would end up friendly. People would say, I didn't know you'd see this.

see this. Yes. They said, oh, I didn't think you'd read it. And I'm, what the fact did you send it for then? Or like, oh, sorry, I didn't, are they just apologising? I'm like, God, what made you? Anyway, I actually, there's a huge amount of sympathy to have the kind of people who go out of their way to send that message. You know, they always come through at like one in the morning. No, I know. Four in the morning. You're like, okay, we're having a little bit of a ranch. You're not very happy on you're tired. And it's not to say that people don't mean it. You could really piss people off from what you do, but it's just there. there's another, to take the next step to write, you know, offensive email is that's, that's, that's not just not liking a TV show, that's deeper than that.

And so around this time, you were, you weren't over to live in LA. I did. And that was for TV. Yep, that was around the time that I finished all those BBC shows. The BBC were being incredible and offering me so much. They were offering me shows and all sorts and it was amazing. saying, what do you want to do next? And then in swoops, this producer called Simon Andre,

who called me one night when I was sitting in my flat in London. I've got this show that I want to make for Channel 4 called Extreme Wife, and I'd love you to come and live in L.A. with me and make it. And I'm like, what? Prime Time Channel 4 show. I'm like, well, that sounds absolutely amazing. But then I had the BBC offering me basically whatever I wanted to do. And it was just one of those moments where BBC were saying,

you can do whatever you want. It's a BBC 3. you can make it your channel blah blah blah blah blah and channel four was offering me a prime-time show and so i should we walk across yeah let's walk down here good a do and so i ended up taking the um the channel four job and really pissing the BBC off and just i mean they wouldn't talk to me it was very personal and really ugly the BBC were amazing to me they were only pissed off because i walked away and that was it was i was the one in the wrong really they didn't do anything wrong and they were angry And then so I went and did my show for Channel 4,

and then six months later, channel 4 ditched me. I was like, oh my God. I just, it was a real case of like, BBC aren't taking my calls, Channel 4, I said no. And I just, anyway, had two and a half years of being grotesquely unemployed. It was terrible.

But it was in L.A. Yeah. That you met your husband, Chris, O'Dowd. And he got in, I mean, I'm obsessed by the whole story. story, but he basically contacted you as a sort of, you know, we're all here in LA, let's get together thing. Well, he was writing to me on Facebook asking me if I wanted to go bowling. His Facebook profile picture, and still is, 15 years later, is an old lady.

And I'd never seen the IT crowd. I just knew it wasn't my kind of TV and this guy. So I googled him and I was like, oh yeah, all right, Chris I doubt. but I was dating somebody else at the time and anyway he kept asking me out and then on the day of my 30th birthday he asked me out and I said no I can't go out with you but come to my party tonight

bring all your friends because I didn't know many people and he did we danced and he turned up at midnight he was dancing with my dad and Chris turned up we danced and then he left and I was like okay I don't see these are my new shoes

I don't want to wear your shoes I'm going to take them off I know that's disgusting what do you think Oh look, Torn. Oh, baby. Did you have a little drink in a puddle? It's like a Bear Gwills documentary, isn't it? I was trudging through forgotten lands.

The forgotten lands of wild terrain. Come on, Ray. So, yeah, you were telling me about Chris. And then, so Chris turned up. He was speaking to you on Facebook. Yeah. And then he turned up to your party in the end. You decided to invite him.

Turned up the party at midnight with his friend. friend Ben. I just remember walking towards me with his arms out and lumberjack shirt on and dancing with my dad, who's a tall hairy Scottish man, this big hairy Irish man walks in. I just remember thinking, I've been turning you down for the last month. I just thought he was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. And yeah, he moved into my little flat about three months later. But isn't that lovely? Well, six months later actually. Prior to that, had that, had you had sort of you know a couple of long-term relationships or had you been I'd had quite a lot of relationship long-term relationships up until like my early

20s yeah and then I was single for a good seven years before I met Chris and so I've been dating in LA for the year before and so dating in LA is awful everyone will tell you it's such a strange town everyone it's just no one's there to meet the love of their life They're there to, you know, live their dream. So it's a certain kind of mindset of person that you're dating. And I was dating kind of older people who were, you know, lived in L.A., but they were all mad. And I've been single for a long time and dated lots of people.

I, like, you know, I dated lots, but if I had reasonably good taste in men, had good experiences. I was like, what's gone on here? Why am I like back to back? Experiences with men that I don't have any interest in. So anyway, when Chris came along, I was seeing somebody else, but quite despondent. And so he said to me the next day after the party, or let's go bowling again, since his line. And I said yes. And then I messaged him again about half an hour later.

I said, look, I can't. I'm seeing somebody else. And he's away, and I need to break up with him before I go out with you. So I kind of took care of business over the next three weeks and then messaged Chris. and go, I'm up for it, let's go out, which was great. And we went to an Italian restaurant. I know he put my, he put my address in his sat navs. He came to pick me up and I lived like under a minute's drive from his house.

So my walk of shame was fantastic and very easy. But I remember he, the first time I left his apartment in the morning, holding my shoes, walking back to my flat, which was so close by. and he just yelled up the street, thanks for all the sex. I was like, this guy is a real piece of work. Are you quite, when you, because you might, you know,

it sounds like you obviously had that real feeling. Yeah. Are you quite sort of, do you get frightened? Do you remember feeling frightened at that moment? Or do you, are you quite calm, you know? It's quite calm. I suppose what I'm saying is, does it frighten you to be vulnerable in situations like that? No. I'm not afraid of being vulnerable at all.

No, I was afraid. I mean, it was, what was frightening about that situation? So he was coming off the back of a long-term relationship and really didn't want to get into another one. So I was more frightened than I was going to lose him than getting into the relationship. I just loved him. I just adored him and just was just desperate for him to feel like being single wasn't necessarily the only option after a long-term. relationship and it just took him a minute and then it got there in the end but no I I wasn't afraid of it at all I just met him and I was like I'll wait and I will you know I just because he just took a little bit he just wasn't quite ready but it didn't take long I mean I was just so excited by him I'd been meeting these guys in LA and

just been like really despondent yeah I think I'm just not gonna bother anymore and then this absolutely spectacular human walks into your life and you're like you're everything I love you are funny you're kind you're just so sexy you are just I love where you're from I love everything about you and I just I just wanted it and you have got two boys art and Valentine art and valentine great names thank you thank you and we need to talk about which brings us on to your writing in your book because when you and Chris got married what I love is that you've always admitted that there was a part of you that felt it was difficult when you first

got together with Chris you went to through a period. You lost your confidence. You lost your mojo. Well, that was all related to that when Channel 4 didn't renew that series and I was living in America and I just felt I was just so sad. I really felt like, God, I've worked so hard for so long and it's all gone. And meanwhile, Chris had just got bridesmaids and was becoming like a global star. And it wasn't there was, there was no competition between a, like I told you, I've got no interest to being an actress. And it wasn't what that, it wasn't that was upsetting. It was just, I was there for the first. I was there for the first time in the rooms that I dreamed of being and meeting people that I'd always

wanted to meet doing red carpets and living that life and I felt like I didn't deserve it. I just felt like I always thought that I was going to be in this position proud of myself and I was in this position just being like when people say what do you do and I rather than say oh I've made all these amazing documentaries and done these things I just was like nothing I don't do anything really and I was just I just wish I could go back and give her a kick in the fucking face and just tell everyone what you've done because this is what my biggest lesson in life has been is the difference between fame and success and that success doesn't go away if you've had a successful period in your life you're still successful for what you've

achieved and that when you're self-employed the you know the scale of what is going well and going badly just changes all the time that's where my my relationship was trying to be well known and just be successful really changed. And it was actually not taking a long time to this, but what happened to me with losing my work and being unemployed for so long was the real blessing in terms of being a parent in this industry, how hard I work, like I work and I write and I write and I write.

And I know that writing is the book industry and what I is so loyal to me. If I keep writing, I will always be okay. in TV you are so disposable and I literally got disposed of. That's how it felt. And for a few years there, I clung onto it thinking, if I'm not on TV, if I'm not a household name, then what is the point? What am I?

And then over the course of that couple of years, you know, I got married, started to think I wanted a kid, I got my first book deal, and all of these other things in life became way more important than my need to be famous. And so then I became really, well, I worked for my success, which is to be in a position where I get paid to write. And now I just feel more successful than I ever felt,

even when it was going really well, because I always felt like this could end at any minute. I don't have that feeling of impending doom anymore. As long as I keep writing, I'll be okay. and it's such a fucking relief. Honestly, it's just such a relief to let go of that. It's funny that sliding doors thing, if you think back to where you could be now,

that you could be here kind of stressing, thinking, oh God, are they going to, am I going to have to have surgery? I know. Do you know what I mean? Because actually that probably is. You know, it's that stress. Oh, there's someone who's 28 who,

why was she taught? Why are they talking to her? Yeah. Well, I do believe, look, I was on a really great trajectory. If I hadn't have taken the Channel 4 offer and I'd have stuck with the BBC, I'd no doubt that I would have had a really lovely career and that I'd probably be hosting a really nice show now on the BBC, kind of age-appropriate.

But I would, you know, and it would have been, like, it was my big, bold decision. But taking that Channel 4 job took me to America, where I met my husband, where I now live my happiest life with my two children and my six pets or whatever. four pets and I'm like God if I hadn't have made that what felt like terrible

decision at the time the rest of my life wouldn't be happening and so you can't look back on it at the time it's awful but you look back on it retrospectively and you just see no it was all getting me to where I am now which I wouldn't change any of it and I love

in your book she's an interesting complex woman for heroin. Aren't we all? Well we all are But we're not often, we aren't often in literature. It's, there are complex heroines, but you know, there can be, I remember a friend saying years ago she was told by a publisher, she's not likable enough.

She's not likable enough. Right, yeah. Whereas what I like about this woman is that she's not, there are complexities to her which make her complicated and a bit unlikable. Yeah. I feel you're very empathetic. I think that comes through the pages. towards women who haven't decided to go down that traditional path. Yeah.

With a partner, her husband specifically, and kids. And I'm interested in that, because that's sort of what this character in some ways represents is people who, women being treated as a bit other or feeling other or different, perceived as the cat lady. Yeah. Well, I think before I met Chris, I thought that I would be a mere. I was, I never had it.

I wasn't particularly romantic. I obviously considered the idea that one day I might get married and have kids, but I wasn't one of those girls who was like, that's the end goal. I always saw myself as being really successful. Back then, that fame was a part of that as well. Probably single with a cat. I had that vision, and then I always think, it would be great. I didn't know if I wanted kids, it would be great,

to just meet someone who had a kid because you know that and you know it all changed when I met the man that I loved and I wanted him to be the father of my children and I got older and just couldn't wait to give birth but back then in my 20s I I thought that I was going to be something else so I love in my books writing that character and how life could have been and how it could have looked and and it's fun I mean I you know no Mia is not a likable person in the book but you're rooting for her I've got so many female friends who probably aren't the most likeable characters and I love them. They're a bit spiky but they've got hearts of gold and I love those kinds of women. I mean it was funny actually

because I was thinking of it this morning because I was on the tube coming here and I had Ray on my lap and was trying to do my makeup and I had hair all over me and then I was aware and then I was trying to comb his thing and I saw these women looking at these people kind of looking at me and I thought oh my God I am the cat lady. But I people who don't have animals think we're all like that, don't know. They all think we're a bit mad. I remember with Leloo, where I used to, because I stayed, lived in so many different places when I had that cat. She was an indoor, outdoor cat. Wherever we were, we would just, we would just fit in. But I lived with quite a few people, and some flatmates that I had once

who just hated the litter tray. They hated the litter tray. And they made me feel like I was the one that was using it, because they were so repulsed by it. And eventually it ended up in my room and I was like I can't believe that I'm in a situation where I've got this litter tray in my room but it was so much better than the horrible judgment that I was getting from her being in the living in the in the in the in the bathroom and I was just but I was so Lila and I was such a team we were so in like obsessed with each other that I didn't it was fine but I was like people who don't especially people who don't like cats more people like dogs than like cats people who don't like cats people who don't like cats I've said this

a few times this week, so I'm talking about this a lot, but it's so true that people who don't like cats can't wait to tell you how much they don't like cats. And sometimes when I was, back then when I was younger and my life evolved around this cat, which may or may not sound tragic, but I was so, I was so proud of her and so proud of the fact that I was had this healthy, living thing that I was, you know, keeping alive. But people just love to tell me that they hated her. And it's interesting because to me, that can be, I don't think you can underestimate how vital that can be, which again is the theme you explore in the book. An animal can sometimes be a purpose. It provides a purpose for someone.

And actually, it's the reason, you know, that you force yourself to get up in the morning when you're going through a tough time. And that's why I wanted to write about pet grief, because when Lilo died, my friends really rallied around me. It was, well, it was the pandemic. And so they couldn't come round to me, but they, you know, friends were leaving gifts on the doorstep and just being so sweet because they knew what it meant to me. And every time someone did it, I just felt so grateful. But I know that a lot of people don't have that and other people don't acknowledge how hard it is when a pet dies. Honestly, I just, with potato, I mean, I was out of commission for about two weeks after potato died. I just, I was heaving, like, I was,

like I was just an absolute mess and Chris was too we were absolutely torn torn in half my kids was my first my kids first experience

of grief and it was awful and it still is and I still find my youngest my eldest being very upset about it and you know we we rescued two dogs

meatloaf and puffin about a month ago oh so are these your new dogs and they are but you two you're good at names you too Sorry, we're in the middle of recording something.

Sorry. No, I just feel terrible. But yeah, meatlo from puffin. Especially as I said, we're in the middle of recording something which sounded slightly grand. But I actually meant to say we can't talk to. We're doing a podcast. Did you, Dawn, I wanted to say as well, in your, it was kind of a memoir. It was a diary slash memoir that, like your life in pieces.

I was in bits. I thought it was very moving the way you wrote about your friendship with lovely Caroline Flack. Oh, yeah. who I knew obviously not like you, but she made such an impression on me when I met her. And I'm just, I'm really sorry you lost your friend. Yeah, it doesn't get any better. I mean, it's just absolutely brutal.

She was just the funniest, my funniest friend. And I just miss her. I just miss that energy. I still sometimes, I used to do loads of Instagram stories, silly Instagram stories all the time and Caroline would always be the first person to write to you just I used to really love making her laugh and I just found it's such a strange thing but I just didn't do one for like eight months or year after until I was like what's the point she's not going to see it and I just felt myself just go along what's the point and trying to be funny when

it's not going to make Caroline laugh that was a real she made me laugh and I made her laugh and it was just a total joy in my life and the gap that that's left I know loads of funny people but her laugh was my favourite laugh and um I just miss her so much I still I'm close to her mum and sister now we put a festival on for Caroline this summer which felt really good to do something like that but it's I'm still pretty angry and sad about the whole thing how do you sort of manage you know because as you say you've experienced bereavement and Like all of us, you must have days when life's difficult. But you've got a sort of poise about you.

You feel very self-possessed. Is that something... Do you think you grew up, I had to grow up quite quickly, given what happened to you? Yes. I had to grow up quite quickly and I had to look after myself. And I had to protect people around me and I don't know, I've never, I feel like I've always been the same person. person. Like I feel, you know, when people talk about I used to be this kind of person. There's certain things that I'm not so bothered about now and don't care about, but I feel like I've been consistently me. I don't know why if I come across as poised and together, that's a really

nice thing to hear. But I am quite, I do feel quite unshakable. I do feel quite, it takes a lot to kind of really rock me. And I think when something really awful happened to you, you know, two days before your seventh birthday and the worst thing that can happen your mum dies, I do think it gives you perspective and when the worst thing has happened you either that either makes you or breaks you and it didn't break me and I think it's as simple as that I just there wasn't much else to lose so I think it made me stronger. Do you think we talked about pet bereavements and obviously human loss and

losing any sort of grief is triggering in some ways this is when I get asked all the time about my mum like when you had babies did you think loads about your mum and when you have when you lost

Caroline did it make you think about my mum I don't think about it that much I was so young so triggering I definitely think your nervous system holds on to things that you aren't even aware of And I had a very visceral reaction to Caroline dying. It was very physical.

I was roaring. I was, you know, fell to the ground. Like, it was not in control of myself at all. And that went on for a very long time. And still, I could go back there any second. You know, then when the pets die, it was, Lili was a bit more gentle when potato died. I almost was the same.

I was, it was physical. But I think that's normal, or at least healthy. Oh, it is. I noticed when the Queen died, I was thinking, well, I'm upset. And then I realised why everyone was upset. And it's like, well, I lost my sister, her. I lost both my parents, kind of all around the same time. They all died.

So what's interesting is that I realized, oh, no, it was my experience of her with them. Yeah. It's not about her. No, totally. I had that same reaction as well. But I think one thing that did, what has happened to me is I've kind of experienced grief as a grown-up. I, when I was younger, you know, I'd be disappointed by the grown-ups around me for not giving me what I needed and it's made me sympathise with them so much more. Like they lost their sister, their daughter and I had no emotional intelligence to understand what that meant.

And so when I would feel disappointed that, um, look at me, I'm the one who's lost my mom, I didn't have sympathy for, enough sympathy for what they'd lost. And, you know, losing Caroline made me realize what losing someone as an adult feels like, well, as you know well, it is, it's, I don't know what's better. Whenever anyone's mom dies, it's the most awful thing? Is it better to not know them well or to have a lifetime? Like, what's the perfect situation? There's none. It's all fucking awful whenever it happens. In many ways, I don't have that to dread.

And, you know, it made me the person I am and you've got all these kind of weird, like retrospective benefits to experiencing something like that when you're younger. but obviously it's also a total disaster and changes the course of your life. Grief is, we're so, our culture is so terrible at grief and how it shatters us. There's just, you know, there are cultures in the world where death is celebrated as like a part of life but we're so bad at coping with it and it's the one thing that we know is guaranteed that you cannot get through life without experiencing it. most hopefully you know with other people before yourself but it's just an unavoidable thing that we are completely unprepared for every time and it's just like why are we so bad at it and what I find

interesting about it is the more you experience in it like when you have experienced grief it goes inside of you and it'll never leave and when you experience it again it gets almost like stacking up it stacks up it stacks up for me I can live my life perfectly happily with grief inside of me that doesn't mean that I don't feel it all the time and it doesn't come out but it's just it's not stopping stopping me and I've had some pretty big ones

but I still think at the time like the best thing you can do when it happens is just like be physical fall to the ground get it out like feel it as much as you can and that's your best shot at living with it

I think I want to put his lead on yeah too Because we're getting to the end of our walk. And honestly... Such a good boy. I've loved our walk dog. I know.

I loved it too. Did you enjoy it? Yeah. It's just... I mean, I love walking dogs so much. I love it when you do it with somebody and have a little natter. I just wish that meatloaf and puffin were here. So they could have...

They could have wowed you with their gorgeousness. I think I... Do you think they'd get on with Ray? Yeah, they get on with all dogs. They're lovely. Two little rescues. I swear they say thank you every day. It's so cute.

Well, Dawn, I just want to say, thank you so much for walking with us today. Yes, so welcome. Congratulations on your brilliant book, which I honestly really love. So thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Dawn, will you say goodbye to Raymond?

Bye, Raymond. You are an absolute joy. You're so sweet. It's been a joy. We're definitely hair twins. You're adorable, and that was a real pleasure. What a good boy. Bye Dawn.

I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.