Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

Emily takes Ray out for a stroll in Regents Park with legendary writing duo Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais. They talk about how they introduced Emily's parents! And what brought the boys together to create their amazing biography of work including The Likely Lads, Auf Wiedersehen Pet and Porridge. They discuss the art of collaboration and how they approached their new memoir More Than Likely.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's this? Is there a royal parting, boys? Is it a coincidence that we're here? And there is a god of honour from the palace? You really didn't have to lay that on. Honestly, it's beyond the call. I feel you deserve this. Thanks guys, lovely, lovely gesture. This week on Walking the Dog, I went out for a stroll

with two of the most legendary names in comedy writing, Dick Clement and Ian Lefrenne. They're the partnership responsible for classic TV shows such as the likely lads, porridge and Orvidas' Ameat. And by the way, they're also responsible for my entire existence because they set my parents up on a blind day so you can blame them. I caught up with Dick and Ian in London's and James's Park on a beautiful autumn day. We chatted about how they first met and started writing together, how they cope with the failures as well as their successes and why they think living in L.A. keeps them young. It really does.

They look amazing. I loved chatting to Dick and they were so funny and just real old. old school gents and you should check out their memoir which has just come out it's called More Than Likely and it's just filled with brilliant anecdotes about everyone from Marlon Brando to Sean Connery and Will Smith and it's also a fascinating insight into the process of writing I really hope you enjoy my chat with Dick and Ian here's the boys I'm carrying Ray do you know which way to St James's Park yeah just down here just down here to this was your regular gigs in James Down here to Trafalgar Square.

Dick knows where he's going, Ian. I do. You both look so japper and smart. I dress like a slob in L.A. That's because I work at home, so I only have to sort of get up, make the coffee, and wait for him to turn up. This is the nice thing about being a writer, isn't it?

Well, I should say, you know what, I'm so casual about this. I haven't even officially started the podcast. So this is Walking the Dog. I'm Emily Dean and I think I'm more excited than I've ever been about doing one of these. Because the two men that I'm with today are, I would describe them as the godfathers of modern comedy. Happy with that? Oh, I don't know about that. No, I don't know. I mean, it's...

Golden and Simpson, they came before us. Okay. They're humble? I don't like the sitcom thing. I mean, we've written so much more drama than sitcom. I said comedy. And our feed is in wasn't a sitcom. Yeah, but comedy, what about dramedy?

Comedy and dramedy. Comedy is our favourite. Okay. We're pitching one next week. I mean, we literally have a big pitch next week of a drama series, and it's definitely not comedy. It's serious shit. But it's really good.

Is that what it's called? Serious shit, it's called. Well, do you know, there's been a... problem with the title because it was going to be called prodigal sons. Oh yeah. And then this week they discovered that there's a new... No, no, no, there's a new show coming out on Fox called prodigal son, singular, which is completely sabotaged our title.

Oh no. So there's a whole debate going on now about what it's going to be called. I got to the bit where I was introducing you and I was very excited and then I never even said who it was. I'm with Ian Lefrenay and Dick Clement or Dick Clement and Ian Lefrenne which way around I you're Clement and Lefrenne It's always been that in the in the billing Why was that? And was there an argument ever about it? No, we never argued about it. I don't know It's alphabetical I can't think of any other reason but it no, it just it's stuck that way, you know so

Clement Lafrenne it just seems to be it I'm not sure, I know. You're not sure he is? You're not sure he is. I'm going to have an argument at it now. Ian, it's a bit late now. We're in London's... I would call this... Well, it's near St. James's Park

we're going to, aren't we? A central London. Are we talking now on Mike? Yeah. Oh, well, we're now in Trafalgar Square. Yeah. So God knows if we'll ever make St. James's Park. And you've always... over here at the moment aren't you? Yes. I call you boys. I can't get out of this habit because I

They used to call Ralph Richardson and John Gilgud the boys. So I don't feel I don't feel too bad being called the boys actually. I quite like it. Well the reason I call you boys because I should explain full disclosure here. I have a personal connection with you. Would you like to explain what that is Ian? Well yes. I met your mother when she was in the first series that we ever wrote. One of the first episodes of our whole career. Can you remember which one it was? No. I can.

Oh, tell me. It was called. We should say the show is called The Lightly Ladd, which is all people have heard of. Oh, yeah. And my mother played a French woman that one of them had met on a holiday. Entente Cordial.

Yes, and she turned out to be Welsh, which, of course, in those days, I can't believe she's well. That's the very first one. It's the only was the first thing we ever had produced. Really? First thing, and I remember, I said to before, I was having a drink with her and thinking,

oh my God, this is the first time I've ever had a drink with an actress. And it was very exciting. However... Nothing happened, though, you did it? Nothing happened that night. Oh, no, I'm joking. Now, I'll keep you. Can you see a resemblance, dear?

I know. And nothing happened that night, but then for some reason, she was looking for a flat and I had a flat with a which I shared with this lovely Australian girl called Barbara remember her day very well lovely girl lovely and then Christine came so the girls it was in Chelsea because in those days you could live yeah anywhere you wanted even though you were broke so we lived in Portland Square Chelsea your mother and Barbara had a bed each in the front room I was in the back room downstairs was

the kitchen down. I don't think in two years that kitchen was ever used by any of us. I can't remember anything being actually made in that kitchen except maybe two. And I think my parents met through you. I think they always told me. Well then maybe they did because Dick and I were interviewed or I was by your father who did the show late night line up. And the first time I'd ever been on television was being interviewed by your father. So this is a very emotional day for both of us.

Well, you're responsible for my entire existence. This is really heavy. I mean, that is serious. You never heard. You don't meet someone every day where that's the case. That's true. I want to know how you both met because I've just been reading your book.

It was in Pamplona when I was running Bulls, wasn't it? Well, we'll talk about that because, is that you testing, not I've read the book, no, because you come up in the book with three scenarios. That's right. Two are entirely fantastical and one is essentially, yeah, my mate just introduced us in the pub. In a pub, yeah, Notting Hill. Exactly. I like, because I imagine that's a question you get asked possibly more than any other. All the time.

How did you do me? We got so bored with it. That's why we decided to be a little fensible. And that's what's interesting, is that a partnership, which produced, as people know, things as sort of extraordinary things, like the Lightfoola had some orange and on Bidus Opet. It actually things like that. People expect there to be some alchemy and some magic, don't they? And actually, it does strike me that if it's two bloke in the pub and got on well,

oh, let's work together. Is that how would you describe it? Yeah? Describe it. That's exactly right. You want to go over here? This way, Ian. Yep. I can't, but can you, has there ever been a live radio show where the people talking got hit by a bus?

Could happen any minute. And here's the bus. The 88. So this is your manner? When you met almost years ago, was it, were you sort of hanging out in this area? No, we live in Elscore close to this. Oh, it's very, very near each. surrounded by Australians and Springboks and Kiwis.

But it was, it seemed like London and, because you've come, I've got to confess to quite a lazy assumption, which is that I did think, are we in for Geordie and the nature of the likely lads and horrid and of either and then pet, and a lot of what you write, or certainly with the likely lads, it was giving a voice to sort of working-class men and all this kind of stuff. So I thought, oh, they were obviously they were very poor and their dads and factory workers.

Actually, that wasn't the case. No. We had nice upbring. What it was, what we found we had in common. What was a lot of reversing in? Apart from just being simply excited about being very young and being in London. Yeah. It was this amazing period when the 60s kicked in.

In, you know, not in music, that's so obvious, but also in films. Yeah. And suddenly there was this what they used to call the new wave of British cinema, whereas the first time ever, the leading men were working class, and which was a phenom then. All of this is in our latest work, by the way. It's a documentary in the 60s called Nine Generation. Which I laugh.

That was the period, and we loved the films. And when Dick did this exam piece, and his director's course he said let's write something and so we were basically trying to trying to pay homage to the movies at the time yeah you know with albert finney and tom corney alan baits working class yeah and uh that's what we did you are from the north east though i know that oh yeah and your parents well well my parents were both born in the north And my father's background beyond that is, was India, which is very weird. But yes.

But would you say you were middle class both of you? Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, you know, I was first generation public school. And my dad ran a dairy business in South End. And my two brothers, my two older brothers, went into the business. So I, because I had two older brothers, I thought, I was determined not to compete with them. Really? Well, absolutely. I mean, they sailed very well and shouted at me when I crewed for them. So, of course, I never took up sailing. They drove well, so I didn't drive until I was 20s.

That's interesting. But I went into a profession that was about as far removed from the milk business as possible. So that was... Yeah. But it was a very happy family, you know, I had a very easy-going upbringing. But nobody's... Nobody's in my town anymore. Nobody lives there. I haven't been there for years. Really?

Everybody moved away. So you didn't have that? Well, that's interesting though, because it sounds to me like you grew up in a set of background where you felt you could, you had the freedom to do what you wanted, though. You know, some people come from a traditional background and there's that sense of, you know, I suppose being a bit cloistered and restricted and you must follow us into the business. Yeah. But it was a time when you could do these things. I wanted to get away to London. And so I moved there like a home input. But the other thing that was a huge influence, which we do cover in the book, was National Service. Because you both did National Service, which I was interested about. What do you both think you gained from that and how did it affect your life?

Well, it probably was there. It was the only possible background that we could have delved into to make us right about, to have any experience around. We had nothing else to fall back on. You know, we hadn't worked in factories or building sites or prisons or whatever. But we had done national service. So we rubbed shoulders with guys from the gorblers and guys from Eaton. You know, it was an amazing melting pot.

And when we look back years later, we said, you know, that was it. Really? That's where all the shit came from, sorry. Well, it was a... Ian, can I just say you're so allowed to say shit? I mean, some of the language... Well, it's very classy shit. I meant to say that.

But look, we're actually in St James Park now. Hooray! That's interesting. It's time your dog did some walking, I think. He's going to, I'm going to put him down, I promise. Do you both have dogs, by the way? I do, yes. Dick, what have you got?

A wheat and terrier called Molly. I love Wheat and Terrier. lovely I've had several and uh so you're a dog person totally totally Ian no I love dogs but I haven't had one for a long time but I've had dogs yeah we had a terrier Belgian sheep dog or another dog and the son Michael had a chocolate lab love dogs but I get enough hair on me around his house Wheatonstone shed though Yes I love a non-shedder

I love a non-shedder So sorry you were saying about national service It was terribly valuable Yeah I can see that I mean we didn't know it at the time but it was a wonderful preparation To do what we ended up doing Because you know you did meet a lot of different people Instead of having a totally sheltered upbringing just

I'm going to put Ray down boy I'm sorry, why is everything so yellow? Yes, it is, isn't it? I noticed that yesterday. I noticed that yesterday too. Has there been a drought? In Richmond. Do you feel that?

When you come back to London, do you feel... Well, we're here quite often. Are you? Because you're both based in L.A. Yeah, but we're here so much. So it's not like, oh my God, it's so green England. I was here three weeks ago, and it's not going to any greener, but it's got more yellow. Oh, my God. I'm sorry.

for your... Do we have to pick this up in a plastic bag? This is outrageous. It's only a pee? Really? Seriously? Look what happens? People love them. Look at their face. Didn't Elizabeth Taylor have these? I think... They were white. No, she had. Well, I know this. Because I read your book. Yes, you mention. And this is one thing will get onto your extraordinary life. Because, you know, you pick up people's books and they say, oh, this is my memoir. This is one. And you think, oh, that's nice. They met Barbara

Windsor or someone from EastEnders or someone who's not Marlon Brando Richard Burton I mean extraordinary but Elizabeth Taylor you mentioned we never met her you didn't actually meet she was always in the other room when you were meeting with Richard Burton yeah we did yeah we did a film and he was in it and we heard her voice so we were very excited about the prospect of meeting I'm in the bathroom that's about the closest we got to it next time we went to the George's sister she was still in the bathroom. What do you think she was doing in there?

Well, I think maybe she had problems. Maybe it was just a lot of makeup. But we never met her. Oh, look. What? What's this? Is there a royal passing, boys? Is it a coincidence that we're here?

And there is a god of honour from the palace? You really didn't have to lay that on. Honestly, it's beyond the call. I feel you deserve this. Thanks, guys. Lovely. Lovely gesture. He's doing a poo. Ian, come on. I can do that. Dick, I cannot expect the Godfathers of modern comedy and dramadie. Are you happy with that, Ian?

I'll pass on this one. Why? Well, I'm responsible for you being here. I don't have to pick up your dog's poo. Right, we'll put this in the bin. That is a beautiful colour of your dog. Yes, he's good, isn't it? Lovely. Well, it's the highlights. Whoever did the highlights. did a very good job. Same person who does mine. People always say, oh, you end up looking like your dog and I used to laugh. And now I look at me and my dog and I realize, yes, that does in fact happen. So the questions people ask you, how did you get together? How did you start writing? How did you come up with the idea for the light food ads?

And people want to know because I suppose it was a big change, wasn't it? I think that show at the time. It was part of a wave of... I think so. differences that were happening. It took comedy out of the drawing room. Yeah. And moved it into a house with an outside loo. Yeah.

So that was a bit of a leap. Although mind you, Coronation Street, you know, been on a few years. Yeah. So, but you couldn't say that must have in free of it. But no, it was the movies. It was all the movies. We went watching television. You don't move to London and

then sit home watching television. We were very, You had it, did you? The phrase we always liked was when somebody said, you could meet those two anywhere. And that felt like an accolade because that was the intention that, you know, that they felt like real people. People say that's often the secret of good comedy,

that you can meet those two anywhere. So those characters are, doesn't matter whether they're in Buckingham Palace or whether they're working in a cafe, you can relate to them as an audience. Do you think that's true that you could put those characters anywhere and they'd work. I'm picking them up because I'm worried about the ducks guys. Oh, where do you attack them? No, they might attack him. Oh, the geese might. Oh, the geese here. Yeah. Don't you think? There's so much bigger than him. They're a lot bigger. I remember somebody when I had a holiday on Lake Tahoe once and there were a lot of geese there and it literally,

goosed my wife, you know, and that's obviously the origin of the word goose because it's If you think where their beaks are and what the target is, if they're behind you, that's what being goose is about. So, yeah, so we were talking about the comedy thing. So with that sense of those characters being people everyone could relate to, essentially, and that sort of you guys starting to chat about that and thinking, okay, we work well together. That must have happened when you met in the pub, that sense of, we get on well.

There's a spark there. Well, the big inn was Dick was working at the BBC. He was in radio then. Yeah. And then you got this onto the director's course. I mean, that was the inn. I mean, surely, as it turned out to be true, we basically parlayed that situation into getting a break. Yeah.

You know, there's a lot of randomness to it. Oh, God. You know, we never planned to write a series about two guys in a factory. We wrote this thing, this exercise at the end of my training course. And then somebody said, do you see it as a series? Yeah. And of course we'd never seen it as a series, never thought about it as a series. But what are you going to say?

We said, oh, absolutely, you know, and suddenly there we were writing that. Yeah. We didn't plan to write porridge, really, either. That evolved, you know. And I got caned celebrating that occasion in the pub, which was your mom's local too. It was then called The Black Lion. and they've changed the name of it now for some reason in in Chelsea. Oh really?

Yeah, opposite where we live. So you were celebrating the life? Well, being commissioned, certainly. Yeah. They said, why are you so happy or drunk? And I said, I'm a writer. It was like, it was just like that. It was commissioned six, six episodes.

Of course, the reality was the next week or two when we sat down and actually had to do it. Well, it's interesting because my childhood. best friend actually Jane Goldman is a writer she's a screenwriter and she said to me and when I had to write a book recently she said I said I think I hate writing she said no one likes writing everyone likes having written that's true is that true oh god yes yeah but I mean I do enjoy I love having written I'm no having written is great but no I enjoy it we can never have been partners this long if we didn't actually enjoy the process of working together oh I can I can think of a few catch me a spy sitting in there try to write that movie which wouldn't come when

it doesn't come it's hell it doesn't happen to us very often but it's happened two or three times but i thought it was interesting because obviously you talk about the triumphs of which there are many and mostly triumphs but what i thought is really interesting about this book and something you don't often come across is that sense of you being quite honest about your careers as writers in which there'll be sort of high points, low points and this didn't work. People don't normally do that. No, a lot of disappointments, there's a lot of embarrassing failures. We thought it was...

No, but there were. I mean, you could... People don't know, but after the like lads, we did get a couple of feature movies under our belt, which so we thought, oh, this is cool. Yeah. But then we were offered it. offered a television series and it was a disaster. And which one was that? Well no, it was called Mr. H.

with Harry H. Corby. And then so when you think about it, then we did another movie, it's great, this one of the Burton, but then when we did whatever happened to the likely lads, it was, you know, that was a big, is this going to work? Because we hadn't had a success since the original and happily it did work.

And we thought, yes, we, We are quite good. We didn't feel that two years earlier after Mr. H. But that difficult second album syndrome, that's tough, isn't it? Did you feel pressure then both of you after, because the likely lads and also audiences in those days were shoes. Oh no, I think going to do mystery. Yeah, we did feel enormous pressure. By the way, this is usually the setting for spies meeting clandestinely, isn't it? It's this bridge. We're on a bridge in St James's park. It's really beautiful.

with a view of the palace. Buckingham Palace. Isn't this lovely? Yeah, why do spies? Spies always meet here, don't they? Yes, yes. George Smiley, this is where he meets me. Yes.

Oh yeah, this is where he goes. Well, you're a big John McCarray fan, aren't you? Huge. Dick, I'm following you? Let's do that and do a circuit. I just said I'm following you. Would you say out of the two of you, who's the spokesperson, is there?

Do you know what I mean? I mean, if you go into a room and... No, no, it's a... It's always a double act. You know what I mean? Interviews is easy. Just like this. Yeah.

Making it very simple. It's the same with pitching. When you have to pitch, which is the least enjoyable part of being in our business. Yeah. Then we kind of work it out where the beats are, where one will take over from the other. Yeah. Do you know when you go into, because that seems so frightening to me going into one of those. Well, as you get older, it's even more frightening.

Is it? Why? Well, the people you're pitching to are so much younger than you. Yeah. And they're, you know, they have their feet on the desk. They're wearing Nike's and a baseball cap, and they're texting someone else. And they're slightly surprised that you haven't left your walker outside. Yeah, sure. It's a, it's really, it's a shitty process. Process.

Process, I said. L.A. The L.A. boys now. Yeah. And with porridge, I mean, you had this huge success with the likely lads, but you didn't flog it to death, did you? Which, how many series were there? There were 26, what happened. 26, yeah.

And two Christmas specials or one Christmas. And a movie. But that's not a lot in today's terms. Oh, no, no. No. In those terms, you'd have that would be one season. Well, it would be, but you'd have a writer's room. Right.

I think a lot of series really do overstay they're welcome. I mean, I think we think we should have done one more series of porridge probably. But I suppose there are certain things, you know, it's the office faulty towers where you feel there's something perfect about that. Yes. As a finished piece of work. But I'd have liked a few more, you know. But it wasn't to be. I love how you talk about Ronnie in the book.

Come here. Well, he was a lovely man. Yeah. Oh yeah, there is no one nicer. And you felt that he was the perfect choice for that part. There was never any other choice because it was commissioned as a vehicle. With him in mind, wasn't it? Should we go down there?

We'll go down this way, yeah. What is this street called? He also, he also said it was his favourite role ever. What's this street called? This is, is that horse card spray? Is this horse card spray? It is Ian. Yeah.

This is fantastic. This walk, it's lovely. Isn't it's lovely? I'm going to do this a lot now. All human life is here. It's nice to be away from the traffic too. I know. It's so peace-god. Isn't this nice?

Yeah. This is so nice. Why is it taking so long? I'm glad we got to do this. So sorry, you were saying with Ronnie Barker. We were commissioned again. We didn't suddenly say, let's write a series in prison. We were commissioned to do two.

And one of them was him being taken to prison. Yeah. Because we'd just written a series called Thickest Thieves about somebody coming out of prison. Yeah. So, you know, we were worried about that. And then when they looked at both of them, they said, which one do you want to turn into a series?

And it wasn't an easier decision. We liked them both. And then we thought prison was a bigger challenge, you know. But again, it evolved. It did not, it was not a conscious plan. Yeah. You know, that's the difference. But I suppose there's something about people being trapped.

You know, you talked to me about a national service earlier. Yeah. And I see that in a lot of your work, in Oviedoz-Pet, in Forage, and the likely lads to a degree, it's a sense... Being trapped, Jimmy. Yeah, being trapped. Yes, yes. And especially people who've got no choice that have thrown together. Do you think that makes for much more interesting comedy?

Yes, it isn't it? Yes. And the DNA of all that is National Service. Yeah. 30 total strangers from all walks of life in a hut. Yeah. You know, until you get separated and go off in different branches. But basic training.

Yeah. That's what it is. How do you keep that then? Because you know people talk about, let's say, I don't know, Oasis as an example, that they create this stuff and then when you're young and hungry, and then it's maintaining it. How does that... Well, I mean, there's a lot of bands who are good examples of like Dick and Me.

And it's like... I was reading this great interview at the weekend with Pete Townsend and Roger Daltry. And Roger said, Pete is written a new album because he can't bear to be thought of as yesterday's writer. And we can't bear to be thought of yesterday's writing. It's like it's just this need for relevance. But do you still worry about that? Like I think once you...

No, no, I don't worry about it, but that's what it is. That's what keeps you going. And the fact that you actually just enjoy it. There's another friend of mine, very good writer. I'm not going to name him. Okay. And he's wonderful, but I had lunch with him a few years ago. And he said, well, I feel I've done it now, you know, that's sort of...

Really? And I said, no, I'm still hungry. I'm not in the least bit wanting to... to rely on the old stuff, you know what I mean? I mean, as I say, we're pitching next week, which is terribly important to us. I love that, right? Just the thought of it.

And we've got some, we've got movies that are, that are written waiting to go. I'll tell you what, though, this is something I've never set before. Go on. Is that we go through these different periods, and some are down and some are frustrating and some are great. Looking at our feet is then rescued us.

Because we were in LA, Hollywood and the but not getting any features made. The company we were involved with was in London. Yeah. Turning out all these programs with Grans and Marks and different people. It was pre-libbed job, but nevertheless, they were getting series on the air. And we were in a kind of limbo in L.A., weren't we? I mean, we did a bondry, right?

We did one bond, but we were in limbo. I know, I know he said it more than I do, which is basically, what am I doing here? And it was like, oh my God, let me. if this can work, which it did, suddenly all the credibility that's important to you, which is your own country where all your work was, your best work, we had another fantastic show in the air called Our Phoenix Bread. So in terms of, it was an enormous morale and career booster. And it really took me, rescued us.

The other two things that made a huge difference to us. One was the commitments, because that suddenly got, We suddenly had real cred in Hollywood after the commitments. And the other one was doing an uncredited rewrite on The Rock, which enabled Jerry Brookhammer to sign Sean Connery. And without Sean Connery, you know, he didn't have a movie. He didn't have anything that... Well, can I be honest?

I remember what... I mean, obviously the commitments came out. I was peak target for the commitments, I think, because it came out... Was it? Twenty years ago? I'd say, 20 years ago? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, so I'm 19. And I can remember just thinking, oh my God, this is, that was my likely lad. Do you know what I mean? Not that I was from Dublin, but it was about youth culture. It was celebrating young people and the joy of being young, I suppose. Yep. Oh, shit.

Look at that little cottage there. What are you saying shit for you? No, those are rocks. I thought there were enormous swans. What, did I? It was a big pelican. Oh, my God, there's the biggest. No, there's a big pelican there.

Do you know, I thought there'd been an accident at the chemical plant and the giant killer swans. But they're still big. Look at them. We should say, I'm going to take a little picture of us here because it's so pictures. Oh, look at this little cottage thingy. It's very sweet park actually. Look at this little... We should, Ian, do you want to describe it for people? Well, it looks a bit handful and grantly. I don't like ravens though or crows.

I've learned to respect them. They're so smart. You think so? But they're like your garbagement. They clean all the stuff up at the street. Otherwise, you know. Don't pigeons do that? Well, when we live, we rely on crows. You were talking about Ovidas, Nameda's own pen. I find that... No, no, I just think it...

That's why I think I have this immeasurable gratitude to that series. I just think they rescued us. As I say, I'm a ralourable. in our career and it was in a kind of very emotional limbo wondering what we were doing. We're very interested in theatre at the moment too because we had, you know, the first time we had anything to do with the theatre, we had a hit first time out, which was Billy with Michael Crawford.

It was a wonderful show. It's been a source of great frustration that we've never got it on again. Yeah. It's very hard to find somebody to play the title lead who's... Michael Crawford. He was about 33 when he did it, but he looked 18. You look very smart, can I tell you? What?

You look so much. Can I tell you why I'm relieved you went to LA? Because you look great. I know it's not about what you look like. And that's trivial and unimportant. But I think it's that sense of, I feel, there can be a tendency to sort of shut up shore a bit here. When I say here, I mean,

in England, I think that's changing. It's also those exercise workouts with you with Jaylo. You know, that's made an enormous difference to my physique. And her ass. Kidding aside, I do think, I do think I live a healthier life because I'm there.

Yeah, because I play tennis all the year round and you can't do that here. It's much more difficult. And I think that's kept my kept me feeling fit of life. What were you going to say, Ian? Oh no, no, no, I was dragging us back to where we were. Go on, to Ovidas, in, Pat.

No, no, no, to the theatre. And then Dick was saying, we had this big success and then never went near the theatre again. But now we're involved with a lot. We had a play on this year, the Soho Theatre, which hopefully now is going to Dublin. We have another play in development.

And we had a rock musical on in the last few months. Canada and it's become so, such a turn on. I got really silly when Billy was on. I mean, I did silly things, you know. I would occasionally, it was a drip. Some of them in this park. Theatre Royal Drury Lane.

I wasn't going to mention those. As long as it wasn't my mother. As long as my mother wasn't involved. Theatre Royal Drury Lane. I used to call the box office just to hear the engaged tone. I did that sort of thing. And then, because you were so happy. Oh, it's real.

That was a sign that it was selling out. Yeah. And I used to, if I was going out to dinner, you used to go to the theatre and stand at the back for a few minutes just to hear of a couple of months. It was so great. Look, I'm so interested, but this is a vegetable garden. Well, why not?

In the middle of St. James Park next to the little wee cottage. Hansel and Gretel's cottage, isn't it? Isn't this beautiful? Yeah, it's in the middle of St. James's Park, and there's a tiny little cottage. Growing all these organic veggies. Marrow. aren't they?

I'm going to get you to take a picture and send him my wife because this is bizarre. Anyone would guess that we're in the middle of W1? It's very chocolate box, isn't it? Yeah, very, very. It's beautiful. Hancel and Gretel, I think. Yes, it really is, isn't it? Look, he looks like he should live here.

He's the right proportions, my dog, for this tiny house. You see, that's the reaction he inspires it. Yes. So did Elizabeth Taylor have dogs like you? I want you to... Well, you know, that's why... Emily or Charlie, take a picture. I'll try and get as much of that...

On my camera. No, I want you both to be in it. All right, I'll try and get as much of that cottage as possible. Yeah, I'm going to. Look, Ian, he's very good at directing, isn't he? Excuse me. Who's the bossy one, you or him? Me.

Is that right? Yeah. Are you? Yeah. Well, clear in a moment. Are you the... I'm the one who writes it down. Right.

Yes. That's fascinating. There's always one on that. I'm the one who cleans up after he's gone, although he... Then he comes with notes in the morning. Quickly, no one here. Dick Nien's dream home. Oh, I would watch that reality show.

You've got hundreds there. Come on, Ray. She, she, I thought she had she zoos. But that's why the yacht was, was moored in Wapping. Oh, her, Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Motton's Yacht. Because of the, because of the quarantine laws. Are you the one, Dick, who says, right we're starting at 930.

No, it's not real. You know, we have this tradition. He comes around at 930. He lives two streets from me. This is in LA, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we're in that respect, we're very eco-friendly. I mean, it's just the carbon footprint from coming over here all the time

that I'm beginning to feel dead guilty about. Oh. But as I say, it's just necessary. No, it, I mean, very early on, I was the one who wrote it down in pencil. I'll turn this off. Right. And then eventually got a computer. So, lunch at the palace.

My computer schools are better than it is, which is not saying much. So something I was going to say to you about the book, which I mentioned at the start, was that you being honest about the ups and downs, and you just said, or some embarrassing failures. Yeah. But it seems to me that's a slightly different attitude towards writing, which is... is an idea of a creative profession, whether it be acting or writing or as a job. You know?

You sort of, you get up, you do your job and you go home. Whereas I think that seems to have changed a lot. You know, I think there's been a bit of this creeping idea, which partly reality shows and talent shows, that you get discovered and that's it. Yeah. Yes, of course. Do you know what I mean?

No, no, no. I mean, mainly as young people, you don't consider this going to work, getting a job. They want to stay home and have a startup company. Yeah, yeah. You know. One of the first things we decided, you know, we've been collaborating for all these years,

but the thing that it's least easy to collaborate on is pros. Interesting. You know, even a memo is like it's agony. It's better to say you write it or I'll write it and then we'll edit it. So the first decision we made was, Let's write separate chapters. For the book, yeah.

When you actually write, of course, do you do that? Because that's difficult, isn't it? When you sit in a room and do you have that rule? I work with Frank Skinner and David Badell, and when they work together, they have a rule of, you have to have tolerance in that creative room. Yeah. You know, because power goes to the most negative person in the room.

And you know that person says, that's a shit idea. And then everyone loses their confidence. can't be creative. So you almost have to have a sort of agreement that you're allowed to say things even if they're stupid. Yes, you do. And I remember very, very early on, we thought, get it down. Yeah. Get something down so that it's there and then you can always improve it, you know, then you can always say, oh, that line's crap or that idea's crap. But to have something on paper is so much better than sitting looking at a blank paper. You No. Do you, um, you seem to have quite a work ethic though, both of you?

Yeah, I think we do, yes. Yeah, we do. But, I mean, I got the impression from your, just reading about all your exploits. Like I got the impression Ian was a bit wilder. Well, I was single much longer. Yes, he was. There were a lot more the parties with stones. I was changing nappies. I was changing nappies when he was doing all that. Yeah.

Do you think, I know again this is something you probably get asked a lot, but in terms of who you admire now is creating comedy, is there anyone that you'd mention? It's not a conscious thought. And especially not comedy. We're mostly involved in more drama than comedy, more films. So we're not like aware of the zeitgeist here of who's doing what. And also we're not watching television as we live in America.

even though we're here to work frequently. Yeah. No, no, we're not worried about the competition or wherever it is. You know, the frustrating thing is we've written, in our own opinion, so much good work that we'll never see the light of day. That's, you know, that in this gig

is a very hard thing to compete against without suddenly going under or getting deeply depressed. So much time invested in ideas and projects, that just never get made for various different reasons and or fall apart and and if there was only one of us it would be very hard not to go under as there's two of us you're bolstering each other that's true against that who's the opta you both oh no yeah yeah yeah both of us we have yeah we have a share of are you paused no no I know I was I was thinking of

a different reply which is that you know it would have got me much more down years ago before i became a meditator do you meditate yeah and i have a totally different attitude to bad shit yeah i would have gone under years ago if i did you do that dick no i don't but but what i i do know that every time we have a turn down you know we've we've had quite a few over the years but then there's a there's a morning period but it's fairly short and then I usually think well at least we're now free to do something else so it's it's like a positive attitude comes out of something negative sooner or later but I suppose also it's because you in you've enjoyed such

extraordinary success as well you've seen really good nature would you say that's true I can't imagine either of you losing your temper it's been known but it not very often What's the worst argument you've had? Oh, well, we'll leave my first marriage out of it, shall we? You don't argue? You must occasionally. Oh, yeah, of course.

Disagree, but it's not. I wonder if National Service teaches you that conflict resolution. We go in his back garden and we do three rounds of kickboxing. Get it out of our system. Although it's not good for the azaleas, is it? You said something as well. That's very nice. I feel I've exercised this.

morning. Do you? What cool thing to do? People look at you too. I wonder if they recognise you if they just think... Seldom. They look too, such a smart and wealthy to be in... They do in Newcastle. They do in Newcastle? We can ask for autographs in Newcastle. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Even me.

My dad used to say that was the best kind of success with writing. Because you got all of their benefits. You know, like you can get the restaurant, you get people, but you don't get the legend on the street. You don't get people more than you. Do you think that? Yeah, I'd love that. Do you love that? Yeah, I'd like to be high-profile celebrity.

He finds it impossible to even leave the house. I'd love that. I don't think you would actually. Do you not? I would hate it. Who's got, you know, the look at me, Jean, I call it. Who's got more of the look at me, Gene? Me, obviously.

Obviously. If he was not as Vane and I, he wouldn't be wearing pants like that, would he? No, I've got the look at. at me, Jean. Have you? These are all government buildings, aren't they? Just massive, what, civil service? Yes, sir. So, um, how does it feel to have met the person whose conception you were responsible for, Ian? Well, it's quite traumatic. I might have to talk to my therapist about it when I get back to L.A. I don't know you have a therapist. Do you both have to you have a There's no such thing as therapy.

Is that what you think? Would you never have it? Oh, of course. I would have. I never have. Have you not? I never felt I... I described in the book how...

Yes, you did. But you went to? When my marriage was breaking up. No, I went a few times. You did? And then one day, I went to this guy and he was deeply depressed because he'd had a row with his father.

And I found that I was advising him, instead of him helping me, I was advising him about the relationship and I thought, time to finish. That's when I quit. But it did help. It did help. Yeah.

Because I was a mess for a bit. Do you think a lot of what you do is also, you have to manage egos a bit as a writer because you work with people with big egos. You talk about getting involved in certain projects and there'd be a star on board and just having to be really patient. because sometimes they were asking for things that were kind of impossible or...

I felt, um... There's a lot of having to be tolerant, would you say, as a writer? What do you know? Sorry. They're all... It's personal relationships and they vary as much as people do, you know. If you have a star on board, it means your project has gone to that stage. It's going to be made.

You are so ecstatic. Yeah. You're so you're horrid. You don't give a shit, Harry, truth. Yeah. That's the best moment of the process is when we're in a rehearsal room for the first read-through. Oh, Dick gave Raymond a stroke. Go on, Ian. Oh, I didn't have a stroke, of course.

He's a bit smelly and you're so perfumed and lovely. Walking the dog. How old is? He's three. And I got him when my parents died and my sister died. Because I just said it would be nice to invite joy into my life. I want to say it's been so lovely because you two, in a person, And at Clement, we talked about all the time when I was growing up, my mum would say,

every time I'll be it's own pet or I remember my dad taking me to see the commitments. And he said, you know, he'd made this and they'd talk about you. And then they'd say, well, Ian introduced me. I remember my mum said that she'd said, oh, I really want to meet someone. And Ian had said, oh, I've got a nice guy. We met him. I think he'd be quite nice for you. And you arranged for them to meet.

So thank you for making me exist. And I loved your book. I am so delighted on both counts. Everyone should read it. It's called More Than Likely, and I actually didn't put it down. Do you want us to sign it? Yes, I do, please. Oh, it'd be lovely.

I couldn't put it down, look, and you can tell I properly read it. That's lovely, good. I circle things that I really like that made me laugh. Good. Do I have more circles than him? I really hope you enjoyed listening to that, and do remember to rate review and subscribe. on iTunes.