Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Doc Brown

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

This week Emily went for a stroll on Hampstead Heath with Doc Brown and his Patterdale Terrier, Miko. They discuss his childhood in North London his with sister Zadie Smith, the phone call from Ricky Gervais that has a huge impact on his career, and his new book ‘Something I Said’.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This very different writing for kids and actually performing for kids. I say, okay, let's open up and get some questions. I want a kid putting his hand up, he goes, if you're famous, how come your trainers ain't new? This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll with multi-talented writer, performer, comedian, rapper, actor and children's author, Doc Brown, also known by his real name, Ben Bailey Smith.

Ben grew up in North London, so he and his adorable Patadale Terrier Miko met me on a London's Hampstead Heath, and we had a fabulous chat about pretty much everything. We talked about his childhood in Wilstyn, with his mum Yvonne and dad Harvey, and his memories of being wheeled around in a matching stroller with his elder sister, the acclaimed author Zadie Smith, as well as his love of performing from an early age, which saw him entering rap battles as a teenager and ultimately the music industry. We also chatted about his move into stand-up comedy,

and the phone call he got from Ricky Jervais one day, which had a huge impact on his career. Ben also told me about meeting his wife and the insight into women he's had from his two daughters and why he was inspired to start writing for children. His new kids book, by the way, about a budding young stand-up comic is called Something I Said and it's out in June

so do pre-order your copy from Amazon. I found Ben fascinating company. He's a really smart, thoughtful bloke and I loved hearing how his sister Zadie Smith's success had acted as nothing but inspiration to him. And his dog, Miko, totally had me at hello. Even though, spoiler alert, she did at one point run over to a stranger and start licking the coffee out of their cup. Turns out she's a big fan of decaf cappuccinos.

I really hope you enjoy my walk with Ben and Miko. If you did, please remember to rate review and subscribe. I'll shut up now so you can hear from the man himself. Here's Ben and Miko. Come on, we're going to go for a walk. Remember this park? You've just missed, Ben. Frank Skinner, who lives.

up the road. Good I. I'm not seen him for ages. And I said, guess who I'm meeting. I'm meeting Doc Brown. And he remembers you very fondly. Yeah, yeah. We've had some good times. Really nice guy. Lovely doggy. What kind is that? She's a Tibetan terrier. Oh, beautiful. Isn't that amazing, Ben, that a coloring? Yeah, she's an unusual, they're harder to get in this color. You can get them in Blask and Bram. Bye-bye. that because you're a recent dog owner.

You know the sort of the interaction there? Yeah, I'm not always up for it, but sometimes I am. It's just like anybody else, I guess. Sometimes it's really annoying, especially if you're in a hurry or you're deep in foot. But most of the time it's nice. I mean, people who have dogs tend to be nice people. So I guess because they've got that desire to care,

to be maternal or paternal. They tend on the whole to be nice people. It's just whether you get accosted by like a dog boar. I'm not really a dog boar. I don't give that much of a shit, do you know? But yeah, cool, you know, how old's your dog? Yeah, very cute, la, la, la. But I don't want to get into all that talk about breeds.

And I don't really care that much. I just like my dog. Do you mean? Okay, I need to introduce you properly. I'm very thrilled to have the wonderful Doc Brown, aka Ben Bailey Smith. Do you like Ben? Yeah, Ben's fine, doc's fine, whatever you prefer. You don't mind either?

They're both my name. I mean, I've been ducks until I was a teenager, so it's more than half my life. And we've got your wonderful dog with us. Do you want to introduce us? This is Miko. She's a... She's a sort of, what would you describe her colour as red chocolate? I'd say, it's a rosset. Yeah.

She's very autumnal. She's a patadale, terrier. She's absolutely beautiful. And how old is she? She's seven months. She's a very sort of curious, job-worthy, busy body. She's got amazing character. But see, Patadales are working dogs, you know, they were bred in the Lake District.

Oh, really? Yeah, for hunting foxes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, digging up, what do you call fox? I don't know what they're little hideouts are called underground. Oh, yeah, they, they wore it, dens? Warrings, dens. Burgers wore at warrants.

A listener will know. A listener who is in the London, I will know. So, yeah, they were bred for that. So they're working dogs. So you get, you don't really see a lot of Patadales as pets because they need, they need a mission. Do you mean? It's not even like, you know, you hear dogs need attention. Of course they do all of them do because they're all very emotional creatures.

But Patadales also need a mission. So she needs like little tasks. She can't eat out of just a bowl. It has to be like a sort of treasure hunt. You know what I mean? And with the garden, that's like her. That's like her fortress. It's like a massive version of her crate where she sleeps, you know.

She just patrols the outskirts of it every night and makes sure no foxes come in. I love where you've taken me. This is the greatest park in London. So we're in Hampstead Hughes. The lower end. I don't know what bit is this called then because I think they're divided into sections, aren't they?

This is my favourite park. I love all of it. I mean, I spent so much of my childhood here. My dad loved Golders Hill Park on the other side of the heath from where we are. There's a little hill at the top with an ice cream parlour. And that was just like, if he ever took me there, that was like my best Sunday, do you know what? Oh, really? That's where I spring.

called it's ashes in the lake there where the flamingos come once a year. I think it's lovely to remember someone, you know, to associate them with a place that made them happy and that you have those memories of them, you know? Absolutely. And, you know, my family is very, it's very London, man, you know. It's very London centric. You know, my dad's from South London. My mum moved to South London from Jamaica, late 60s, early 70s. Oh Ben. This looks like a patadale.

Is that a patadale? He's got a very long snout. What breed of dog is this here? It's an Irish terrier. It's like a long version. Look how big that dog is, Ben? Yeah. That's like me going for a bar.

Yeah. It looks like a hairy sea lion. from where we are. Oh that's where I look like going for a bar. It's been lockdown love. Standards of slip. So, um, talk me through. You grew up not far from here because you're in, um... Well, I was born in the Royal Free, which is, um, for anyone who knows Hamster, it's just at the foot of the park near the station where we met, Hampstead Eve. I went to a school called Hampstead, which wasn't actually in Hampstead, as in Crickland. So, yeah, I was always north-west London.

Both, like I say, both my parents are South London, it's really, but they both moved north. Yeah, I was born in Kilburn. Well, born in, like I say, in the Royal Three, but then grew up in Kilbon. Yeah. And Wilsden. Kensal Rise.

Were you the youngest? Middle. You're the middle? But I've got half-brother and half-sister as well, so there's technically five of us. And were your parents, it's your dad's hobby, is that right? Yeah. And your mum move on?

Mm-hmm. And what are your memories of your sort of family experience, really? What was the atmosphere like in your home? Well, we started off on, well, when we were born anyway, we were in a council estate. Um, Muslim Lane and that. It was just the, I mean, inside our flat, I'm not talking about the whole estate, but inside our flat, it was just the best place, man. It was the best place to be because it was, you know, you go to some of your friends' houses and your kids, there's never any visitors.

It's always quiet. You feel like you're going to a museum or something. You know, like Cameron Fry's house in Ferris Bueller. Like my flat was always just so much life there, man, so much stories. Jamaicans, Irish and English, just in and out, in and out. Now, there's a great, great place to grow up. I've done so many of my happiest memories that are there, even though it's nowhere near the nicest place I've ever lived.

Do you mean? How lovely? Yeah. And were you close to Zadie Smith, your sister? Yeah, we grew up like twins. You know, we're only 18 months or so apart. Yeah, you know, we're in the double push chair, a little McLaren, you know, stripy blue McLaren.

You're Mark 2, 7980 plates. Yeah, we're in between one of them in the Topsy and Tim Oshkosh-kosh-Bogh, you know. What kind of a kid were you? Were you noisy? No, no, I was always the quiet one, always. Were you? Yeah. A little border. I love borders.

Yeah, they all look like little old men, don't they? I always say, you know, Ben, they're like 1940s dogs. Yeah, yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. When I see a border, I always think it's going to say, What, oh, something like that? I think they're like, oh, really?

Like, we lost a lot of good men out there today. Jolly, dude. So go on. So you were, I'm fascinated by that, because I interviewed Alex Horn recently on the podcast, and he said exactly that. He said comics and sort of funny people. They're either sort of look at me or observers.

And so do you think you were more of an observer? Yeah, I've never been a look at me guy. I get very nervous when people look at me, which is, I think, a very, very natural human trait. But I also know that I have a lot to give to people, strangers even, you know. So it's, that's the paradox people like Alex and I will forever be in, you know, introverted entertainers. Yeah, do you think you are an introvert then? Yeah, absolutely. So masking as an extrovert. But like I say, I don't think that's weird or fanciful. I think that's a lot of human beings.

It's just more extreme if you're an entertainer for a living. Because there has to be an extroverted part that you switch on for your job. You have to have that. You even have to be able to sort of tweak it on and off, just meeting strangers in the street who want to talk to you about your job. you know. And how do you find that? I've been really lucky man.

I mean, I don't do all the socials and that. So I don't, I've never experienced online abuse. I understand what it is and how many people suffer from it. So I can only go by on the street and on the street, man, I get a lot of love, man. It's really, really nice. I'm not going to lie. And the only time it's annoying is if you're in like a mad rush or you're with your kids arguing with like somebody. You know what you have an argument with your mum or something.

Do you know what I mean? But most people I think, in London anyway, have that body language. They, the understanding of body language they can see it's not a good time, you know. Miko. Come on. Good girl. Good girl. There's one there.

He just gave you a treat. What's that? Where's it gone? Do you know she's got lovely white teeth because... Well, I do the toothpaste thing every night. There's this like stuff you just... put into their gums on one side and the other this jelt and then they lick it round. I need to do that. I didn't do that with my dog, Raymond.

I tried to brush her teeth as fucking impossible. She's really good nature, I can tell. She's lovely, man, with, you know, adults, kids and dogs. I've been super, super blessed. But in the same time, I'm very gentle with her, do you know what I mean? Are you? Yeah, because I remember people like when I was younger who, like, they just beat up their dogs and wrestle with their dogs in that. And then their dogs were biting. someone. I can't believe it. Like, mate, have you seen how you are with your dog every fucking day? Kicking it, whacking it with a stick, wrestling like his playtime? Come on, man, what do you think it's going to do to see someone coming towards you? So, um, it sounds like you were quite happy as a

kid. Did you have... Yeah, definitely up until sort of 12, 13. And what was the house style with Yvonne and Harvey? Was it sort of love and boundaries? I don't really know how to describe it. It was just different. It was quite free I'd say. I'm very autistic and creative. Yeah and I think that was maybe just born out of our parents' experiences rather than any obvious creative skill. I mean, when I look back now as an adult, I understand that they had a creative side. You know, my dad took photos. My mum made pottery. But, you know, they were working people. They have time to be faffing about with art, you know. Because your mum was a...

She was a social worker. Yeah. My dad was in like direct sales. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is their lives, that didn't describe their lives, their lives were unreal.

So that I think that's what made us artists because it was endless stories. You know, you look at my mom coming over from Jamaica, the journey she took is absolutely mind-blowing. I mean, can make a hundred films of about it and my dad's you know fighting in the Second World War being on the beaches at Normandy he had like two lives before I even met him you know that's incredible

it was 52 when I was born so he'd already had life whereas my mom was like 21 22 which she'd already had two lives as well so yeah and then they they through all the lives that they've had they meet and get together in that period coming up to you know Fatcher then the riots and 81

like that period of incredible racial tension and a sense of like something really dangerous in the air so that's what we're born into

so it's kind of it's just been a movie from long before we were born so it's not like they were two artists and they handed down there artistry or whatever it's more like they were two human beings who lived such I don't know full lives and unusual lives you just soak up a bit of that and you'll probably be a writer or a singer or a painter or something I can see that and I look at my half sister she's a she's an artist

painter and a curator an art professor my half brother's a musician my younger brother's a musician my sister's an author. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So it's like... There's some kind of alchemy though sometimes in family, which I find interesting. Yeah, you see it in sports, you see it in everything.

Because there is, it just goes to show you, there is something genetic going on, just like there is with like mental health and stuff like that. Yeah. There's stuff that gets handed down, whether you like it or not, but then you also need, that needs to be nurtured. So it just continues the nature versus nurture debate,

and leaves you with the same conclusion that it's a bit of both. Like if you're mixed, you don't look like your mum or your dad. Obviously, you do want to understudy and scrutiny. But at first, when you're looking for who your team is when you're a kid, you don't find that in your house. That's why mixed-way siblings, you know, end up really dependent on each other because that's the first representation they see of themselves.

I mean, I've tried to write about it from the start my career in show business. Even before that, as a rapper, I think it's all. something I've never stopped writing about. It's just more sort of tied up in the general concept of duality, you know? And the idea that human beings are never just one thing. And being mixed is kind of a physical representation of that. But that duality is something I've always written about in everything, in my raps, in my comedy, scripts, books.

It's always had that thing of rich and poor, black and white. Yeah. You know, up and down, good and evil, wrong and right. However you want to look at the differences, but constantly hammering that point home that that's in everybody. There's no one thing. And everything you say that you are, you're still a part of something else. You know, I don't...

Do you know what I'm saying? Like there is no white. There is no black. It's all just a construct that's handed down and now you feel like this is your team or that is your team. It's all nonsense, you know. I did the census the other day. And you can't be Black British, which annoyed me because that's how I would describe myself. I'm of mixed heritage, definitely.

But Black British is important to me because, you know, I feel British, but, you know, identify as a person of colour. So black British works for me. Not saying it should work for anybody else. But I was just a bit disappointed to see it it wasn't on there. Come on. Miko! Come! Come on!

Miko! Hey, you want to chew? Were you academic at school? Nah. Were you not? No, what Zadie was, but I was like... I was one of those kids who was bit too smart for his own good.

So, like, I got that thing of, like, yeah, I mean, geography. I don't, I'm not interested. And, you know, look what I can do with English. Like, look what I can do with it. I loved English so much. I was just, from a very early age, I was like, can someone explain to me why I'm supposed to give a fuck about science,

about petri dishes or maths? I just, I don't care. And of course, it's a really arrogant approach that like nothing else is important but at the same time if you really know that you've got one focus and I just always had that I wasn't sure what I would do with it but I just thought this is what I like I like English

I like drama and that's it that's what I want from this so I was not I was in the bad kids per se but I think I was definitely disruptive because you get that with smart kids sometimes they think they're above the lesson so they sort of belittle it well i think sometimes with smart kids particularly kids that are talented in one area which you clearly were and are they hyper focus because they have a passion for something so you're sort of thinking i don't want to do this physics stuff because i need to get this yeah i haven't got time for that like that's why i

resent shit now like i resent it now because like i'll be here's a perfect example right i've been making music on and off for half my life, right? And for about ten years I've worked with one guy who's like a he's like a multi-instrumentalist, he's got his own studio, he's got all the the knobs to twiddle that you can dream of, right? And I've worked in and out of that studio for over a decade. I couldn't turn that thing on or off like I couldn't raise a fader and not ruin this the song. So I've been in studios for 20 years. Do you know what I mean?

I've seen it day in, day out. And I've never learned the first thing. Like I can just about press record on GarageBank. Do you know what I mean? And this guy is producer Miccos, he said to me, I remember him saying one time, like, it's so easy. Look, I'll give you logic. You download that.

I'll get you all the basic equipment. And I can teach you. It's so easy. And I was just like, no, I'm just not going to learn it. He even gave me logic, and I still haven't learned it, you know. And I said to him, It's just not in me. It's not in my brain.

Like, I don't have that understanding, that level of intelligence. And he goes, that's bullshit. I said, why? He goes, it's not that you can't do it. Because if you put your mind to it, of course you could. Yeah. Your issue is you resent spending a minute learning about this shit if you can't write a poem, you know? Like if it's stopping it in your head, if it's stopping you from painting a picture,

if it's stopping you from singing a song. Yeah. or rehearsing a joke, you know, or learning a line. You resent it. And I was like, fuck, that's, that's it. That's 100% it. That's exactly it. It's exactly it.

The technicalities of my job, I just don't care about. And as I've got older, I just realized that's because you're an artist, bro. Like, accept it. I've never wanted to call myself that because it seems so ponc-y. But it's true. I don't do anything else and I don't want to do anything else. That's why I have a fucking accountant. That's why I have a fucking agent.

Do you know what I mean? That's why I have a music manager. That's why my team is amazing. And I couldn't do any of this without them. And were you popular then as a kid? That's a flat, no, I was not. A flat, no. Yeah, I was thinking like, let's be honest here.

Like, come on, I have my moments. I didn't look back at it. No, I didn't really. I was super popular in primary school and then secondary school was just like nah it just didn't happen I was like a proper loser Why are you?

Yeah yeah but I think I think back on it as being kind of cool because I lent into it Do you mean? Like I knew my social status And I wasn't trying to climb the ladder I was like I'm good Like this is okay

Like all the people in my year They're cool kids I'm friends with them now Because we've all grew Like the social status thing has disappeared. That was just a school thing. But it's funny when I chat to them now, you know, have a beer with them or whatever.

I do still look at them. You were so, you were one of, you were in that cool sector of our year, you know? The guys who would actually go to raves, you know? The guys who had like the good clothes, machino and, you know, in the eight ball jackets and the Avericks, the Air Max 95s, the DJs, you know what I'm saying? The cool boys.

You know what I'm talking about. They tolerated me, but it's not like I would get an invite necessarily to anything good. Were you confident with women? No, no, not at all. No, no, I sort of just let women do their thing to me when they wanted. I didn't really have, didn't have any moves or, I just literally, you know, just literally, you know, they say, oh, I got lucky last night. That was literally, like, that was literally it. Like, I just get lucky.

There's it. There's no skill involved, really. So, yeah, no, I had my little crew of boys, and there's like five of us. And that was just my world. I didn't feel the need to break out of that. I felt safe within that. And we just, we do, like, loosery type stuff that I look back on very fondly now. Right.

So, like, when all the other boys would go, you know, raven, and go labyrinth or something, we'd be, we would save up our money and buy an ounce of, weed which was like a massive amount of weed for us then you know when we would normally smoke in like teemps and little bits of hash an ounce of weed and we would get tickets to Kings Lynn from Kings Cross get on the train or Liverpool Street actually I think we'd ride to the station on our bikes put the bikes on the train and then we go to Kings Lynn then we'd ride another like 25 miles out to the Norfolk coast and we just camp around there just let off all

esteem but with none of the danger of London and no cool no cool people around like I was writing rhymes at that time but I just kept them to myself and tell me when you went to your first it was like a rap battle wasn't it that you started how old were you about 16 or something maybe maybe maybe 16 but I'd say probably more like 18 and with rap and stuff were you writing it in your bedroom would you do it with other friends no no no it's completely private I wrote it down on in little books and kept it completely to myself. It was mainly just about girls at first.

And then it became really like political, like, protest raps that I never show anybody. So pointless. So at what point did you, was there a case of being discovered? What happened? Did people, because you started working with Mark Ronson, didn't you? Yeah, I mean, all the music stuff was just amateur, like potluck kind of stuff. so I never made it live enough of it.

I was, you know, there was, there's always been a rap community as long as I've been around anyway, but it was just very small then. So like early 2000s, it was just like a low-key thing, really. It was UK-wide, but, you know, no one was really doing big things until when, like, Dizzy came along. Probably Roots Manuva, Rodney P., they were like the biggest guys we had, skinny man.

But, yeah, there wasn't a real industry like there is now, you know. So most of what we did was for fun. I used to run a open mic type party out of my friend's record shop in Carnaby Street on Fridays, Friday Night Live at Deal Rule. And that was really the making of me, really, as an entertainer because I was just up there throwing these hip-hop nights as a host, you know, keeping the sort of vibe in the room just nice, friendly, a bit of humor. being self-deprecating, you know. I think that was the birth of the stand-up in me. But yeah, so I would just do that and I would occasionally release music

to no great fanfare, you know. Because I was like, sale or return, you know, I'd ride my bike around like Soho or Camden or Notting Hill. And did you go to a university? Selling CDs and records. Yeah, I went to UA in Norwich for a year to do performing arts.

I dropped out at the end of the year. and then I went back and did a social studies course. I think I took a year to work. I think I was working at... Is that when I was working at Next? I fucking hated that job so much, man. I don't think there's any job I've hated more than working at Next. I also got...

Why? Why did you hate it? Retail, man. It's like, ask anyone who works in retail. I did it. I did the gap. It's just horrible. Because you don't just have your boss giving you shit every day. Like every person, person in there is like your boss because it's like boss you around.

Did they ask you that question they used to ask when you did the interview? Do you consider yourself to be attracted or good looking? Did they? Yeah. That's fucked up, isn't it? Now that'd be a court case now, right? They'd be cancelled. They'd lose their job.

I got fired in a spectacular way though. Did you want? I have it. It's a fun memory in some ways. How did you get fired? I just had enough, taking shit. You know, they play that music. You got that music going around all day long, somebody else more pop hits or some shit.

Yeah. And it would just be the same tape. We ran around 90 minutes, then it would start again. Right? And go round and round. He's driving up the fucking wall. One of the songs on there was, And the sky, so blue,

Sun's going to shine on everything you do. Don't know why. That fucking dirge. You remember that? And then, like, it came towards the Christmas period, you know, start that real early. And they said, oh, Ben, can you go and change the tape, put the Christmas tape in? They had not been there for a year, so I didn't know there was a Christmas tape. I didn't know there was any more tapes.

So I was like, what the fuck? There's more tapes. So I went in the back into this little room where they have the microphone, which I used to do the announcements as well at the end of the day. You know, the ones that was just like, we're about to close her, take your back. Do it now. Then can you do the announcement please? What do I used to say? Ladies and gentlemen, the shop is about to close. Please take your purchases to the nearest counter or something like that. I'm in there and they're like in the drawer under the mics.

I pull open the draw and there's fucking like about 50 tapes. I'm sure they're all full of shit. More lighthouse family or whatever. But just to have something different. Like why would you not change it? Your staff are losing their fucking minds, right? Why would you not change it? So, yeah.

I put on the Christmas tape, but that was really the end of it for me. Like, I remember putting on his head just thinking, these guys don't care. You know, this is just a horrible job to get out of here. So I had a big set two with my manager one time, and I'd come back late. I'd been in Manchester, my, I missed the last train,

had to get bus, bus broke down. It was a nightmare. And I wasn't in the mood for getting shit, and he gave me shit. So at the end of the day, I got on the mic and I, Miko, what you found? That's gross. Miko, come on, let's walk.

So, yeah, I just went in the end of the day and I got on the mic and I said, ladies gentlemen, the shop's about to close, so please gather up your plan purchases and throw them on the ground because they're not worth anything. They're made by child slaves in Bangladesh, you know, and then they're shipped over here for you to buy. An extortionate markup considering the clothes aren't even as nice as like Gap. And then my floor manager come running, he's like, you are finished, you are finished. I love it, you are finished.

Like we're in the, I don't know, in the White House or something. Like we're playing with high stakes here. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like it's fucking succession. You know, like mate, this is next year. I'm a sales assistant. I'm 17. Do you really think I give up?

Fuck, I'm gone. So I felt very rock and roll. So tell me, I appreciate you said this countless times before, but. but just in case anyone isn't aware, the Doc Brown moniker, how did that start? Was that when you're a teenager? I get asked that question all the time.

It's one of them ones I don't really know the answer to it. Like, how do the nicknames start? Does everyone remember? I don't really recall, but I'd imagine it'd be something to do with me being a massive Back to Future geek and just being a nerd in general. I'd say it's probably some combo of those.

Whatever it is, it wouldn't initially be kindly. I don't really know why I retained it. It's a rubbish name. Yeah. I really like it. But then like, what's your alternative? Ben Smith? That's even worse.

So, like, I've got really boring names. Nothing I can do about it. Not even a Benjamin. Miko, hey! Miko, leave it. Come here. Hey, get your snout out. Come here.

I got the... sense just from things you said in the past and hearing you chat about things, that you kind of felt that you were drawn towards performing arts and stuff like that. Yeah, from birth man, like I remember being like five or six and I wanted to be two things, either an actor in Star Wars or, um, or, uh, uh, uh, a, uh, uh, a, uh, a, uh, milkman. Yeah, I just love the milkman, like, you just to see this mysterious guy like just rolling around at three miles per hour.

Just in his like tricked out little cart with all these treats on the back. And it didn't look, it didn't feel like no one was telling him nothing. Do you know what to mean? Like no one was telling him what to do. He just seemed free. And that's like I sometimes look at my career

and look at my life now. I feel like I am that milkman. You know? I just love just doing my own thing in my own time, in my own way. And you've got two daughters, haven't you? Yeah. I couldn't recommend it higher for every single man.

Like the shit I'm learning now, you know, since me too, it's about equality. So knowing that as I did innately anyway, I think it's amazing what I've learned on top of that in the last five years. Really? Yeah, even from just being out there in the world facing outwards or from my daughters, you know. And do you think it sounds like... Every day is an education. Well, you grew up in a house with intelligent strong females as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Look at that. Oh, I love your dog. What is that? She's a Carpathian sheep dog. She's from Romania. Incredible. Yeah. She's beautiful. She's just a rug with legs. I didn't want to say it.

You know, I didn't want to... But that's their breed. They live with the sheep and they just stay with the sheep, but they don't do anything. She's absolutely lovely. It's all right, it's decaf coffee. Miko. Hey, nosey. Miko Ben, do you want to just say what your dog did?

I don't want to shame you. She went up to the owners of a Romanian sheepdog, which is self-described as a rug on legs. And she started drinking a cup of coffee, which actually belonged to the sheep dog, only in London. What point did you get into comedy then? Because you were a youth worker as well, weren't you? Yeah, 2008.

Yeah, I was a youth worker while I was doing music. I wasn't earning enough money to live off of music. So I did youth work during the day. part-time, music the rest of the time. But yeah, 2008, February was the first time I stepped on the stage and tried stand up. Miko, this way. Miko!

Come on, this way. And so how did you first get into comedy? Again, like, it was organic. It was accidental. It was never a plan ever. I mean, it was... Yeah, it was a weird situation. While I was doing music, I'd done some stuff for Radio One and One Extra

that was kind of comedy-related, but it wasn't, I didn't do it as me. I was just writing stuff for this other guy who had a sort of music and comedy thing on Radio One and One Extra. He went off and started working in comedy. I hadn't spoken to him for a couple of years and he called me and said he'd been working on this show for Lenny Henry, for Radio 4. His name was Danny Robbins. And he asked me to help out with some of the lines in the script because there were some young black characters in there and he was like, look, I'm not a young black man. So it's a good bit of foresight, I'd say. You know, and he, I think they got, he got the BBC to pay me like 200 quid to be a kind of consultant on it. Then I ended up working on the whole

series, it was like a radio comedy show and Lenny Henry would give me these little walk-on bits, you know, I'd say a line here or a line there. And that was the start of it, man. It was the producer of that show. He got me working on another couple of comedy shows, writing like comedy music for radio four shows. And he was the same one who brought me down to this comedy night and pushed me onto stage to try something. And you must have realised then that you were funny. Yeah, kind of. I knew that I could hold a crowd, you know, under any circumstances. And that just grew into being comedic because it's just inherently funny, isn't it, to just be up there trying to avoid disaster. And that's how it began. But were you funny at home, for example, and amongst your friends? Were you? But not so much amongst my friends.

Yeah. My friends would tell you I was the least funny, I'm the least funny person in the group. And I would agree. But that's not what the skill is. Miko, Liko, leave it. Hey. When you kind of made the move over to comedy, was it a case of thinking, I'll give this a go? I'm obviously quite good at it. Yeah. Yeah, I just thought, why not? I literally just thought, why not? And I was in desperate need of money, had a baby, had another one on the way. and when these first couple of gigs went well I just thought well there must be something like in rap where you can battle for money there must be do you mean there must be right there isn't everything

so I just googled it and the first thing that came up was so you think you're funny and it was five grand the prize whereas I've been battling for like 500 pounds max you know five grand I was like I'm going to do this so I went in that competition I ended up getting all the way to the final and I didn't win but it is irrelevant because at the final It's like in a big hall, in Edinburgh, in the middle of the festival.

You've got all the new agents looking for new talent there. Do you know what I mean? The judges were like Johnny Vegas and like head of Channel 4 comedy and shit. So for me, that was it. It was done. It was a done deal. Did you really think, oh, I like these guys? No, no, I didn't.

I never like comedians. Really? Yeah, I never got on with any of them. I ask them, like, I don't have any friends from comedy. And I guess I must be the dick because I never made friends with anybody. So it must be me. I think I started on the wrong foot.

I started off with a big working class chip on my shoulder. Like, look at these guys. They're just happy not to get paid and get dicked by their agents and by promoters. So you're not mad. I come from rap. Like, I want my money now. You know?

So I think people thought, oh, he's a bit aggressive. I was on the black circuit. It was obviously completely different. They were like, who fuck you think you are, you know? Little squirt. Comedians are social lepers. You got to remember that. We're weirdos, right? They're people who have to sort of be alone most of the time to get their job done. They write alone, they perform alone, they travel alone.

But their work is about people. So they have to sort of be around people as well. But there's a lecherous side of that. I don't mean in a sexual way, but in like a being like a leach for, real human behaviour. You see what I'm saying? Because then they ate that and turn it back on stage. And I just felt that was an uncomfortable way of living.

I wasn't really a fan of it. And of course, there's just a massive amount of jealousy and suspicion because our intellectual property is everything. So yeah, there's no, like you'll notice, whenever a comedian gets massive, all the comedians that are still on the circuit, like, oh, he's such a prick. We're gonna head up this way.

Yeah. So the comedy thing, actually, But then you did, you must have realised you're good at it. Yeah. Yeah, I realised quite quickly because my rhythm, because I hadn't watched stand up before doing it, my rhythm, my whole approach was quite different. And having rap in there as well,

it just sort of snapped people into attention. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, wait, what is this? What is this? Look at the way he's doing it. It's different. So I wasn't the funniest at first, I'd have this little sort of trick up my sleeve that would just,

I'd capture people's attentions and imaginations. And I remember it was Sean Walsh, actually, who said to me, we were in Bristol, and he'd watched me for the first time, like, doing a proper, like, 20 minute set or something, something a bit longer than normal. And he was like, dude, just, everything you've got is, like, fascinating. It's great.

It's interesting, but you just need way more jokes per, like, you know, per paragraph. And he was so right. So from there I sort of streamlined it and I just made the raps like untouchable and the bits in between. Just I'd make them as real as possible and keep improvising as well as often as I could. And it just sort of became bulletproof man. I just started becoming a headline actor all the clubs and then yeah before long within about 18 months I was making a very healthy living it was good.

But that build up in the day up until the guy, I just absolutely, unbearable. And when you're doing it, you know, at my peak I was probably gigging like 11 nights a week, which is, you know, there's only seven nights in a week. But it'd be 11, 12, maybe more gigs, you know, double up, triple up on nights. I always find it amazing when Frank says, that we'll meet for lunch and go, I've got a show tonight, you know. How can you just have lunch and act like life's normal? Frank especially can because, well, number one, he's a genius. Number two, he is incredibly quick-witted. So, like, when he started out, you know,

he's one of, in a way, the godfathers of the more modern type of comedy that we've grown up with. But yeah, he was doing, you know, hosting at nights when he started. So he'd have to do something different every night because the whole audience knew him, do you know what I mean? So he's just so sharp. So I can see why he'd have a more laissez-faire attitude. plus he's got like 20 years more experience. That said, it doesn't always equal to not being nervous. I know for a lot of people, it's still so difficult to build up to a gig.

For me, yeah, I found it at times unbearable. Then the other thing was just loneliness. I just get really lonely. That life, shit, you know. Do you think it can bring on the blues sometimes that life start? Yeah, absolutely, especially if you're already prone to it. And I was already prone to like bouts of depression and she's taken a shit and, you know, anxiety and... Are you?

Yeah. And I think if you're that... You know what the main thing for me is catastrophizing and like, you know, oh my God, these terrible things are going to happen and just getting so caught up in that, you know? And like, therapists will tell you, like, has that shit actually happened? happened, you know? Not yet. So why are you like letting it distort your daily life? But yeah, I had a lot of that. So I don't think stand up was a healthy thing for somebody like me because of the amount of time you have to spend alone. And you know, like whenever you're feeling down or you're feeling like life is really problematic, just talking to someone can make a

huge difference because you just say the problem and they go, oh yeah, that happened to me. Oh yeah, my brother's going through that or whatever it is, you know. And you immediately go, oh, that's actually really normal. It's fine. I can get through this with the help of other people. But self-will is never going to do it. You can't just do it all on your own. And when you're a stand-up, you do everything all on your own.

So, you know, I was forcing my life into this whole wherein I didn't need anybody but myself. And that wasn't a healthy way for someone like me to live. Whereas now I'm making movies and television. It's like, say what you like about it, but it is a team sport, man. You need the other 300 people involved. Every single one of them is vital. No more or less vital than you, you know? So there's this incredible kind of camaraderie.

And if you want to be alone, you can be alone just like in any workplace. Just fuck off for an hour, you know. So Ricky Javez had a big effect on you, didn't he, your career? Yeah, yeah, I mean, massive, man. And like, a Javez endorsement in comedy terms is like, come on, man. Like, of anybody to endorse you, what you're going to get, the goat? Like, the UK goat. How did you start working with Ricky then?

YouTube, I think. He's seen some stuff that I'd done on there. Got his guy to call me. Just phone my phone. It was mad. I was just sat in the garden on my whole flat. My phone rang and it was Ricky Jervais. I didn't believe it was him.

I thought it was bullshit. He was like, what's up, Doc? And I was like, you know, unknown number. I'm like, but who is this? It's Ricky Jervais. And I was like, I think I just hung up. Or I said something and then hung up. And then the phone rang back and it was his guy

and the guy was like, like, hey, you know me, I'm a friend of so-and-so's, I know so-and-so, and I was like, oh yeah. And he goes, it really is Ricky Javey's like he wants to ask you something. And I was like, and I remember exactly what I thought. I remember thinking, whatever he asks me, I'm going to say yes. Like, whatever it is, I'm just going to say yes. There's probably going to be nothing, but I'm just going to say yes. So he comes back on the phone and he goes, hey, seeing stuff, man, really, really funny.

He goes, this might be beneath you, which is funny, because it's the same thing Mark Ronson said to me. It might be beneath you, but do you want to come open for me at this gig in Norway?

And see how it goes, like, you come and do some more with me. And I was like, bro, of course. Of course. So the first time I met him, like he flew me out business class. First time I met him

was backstage at the first gig in Oslo. And that was 2012, maybe, yeah, end of 2012. And it was after that we had a beer and he told me about Derek. And seeing if I'd be interested in working on that, so end up writing and working with him on Derek.

And we're both sort of like failed musicians. So we just start writing little songs together, trying to make each other laugh, you know, around his office or at his house or whatever. And that's when we wrote Equality Street. and Richard Curtis approached him to do something for comic relief, 2013. And Ricky called me, he was like, see that song? He's like, what if I do it as Brent?

Like, we just bring Brent back. He's like, you know, it'll just kickstart your career. Like, we just bring Brent back and you're like the star of it. And I was like, what? I couldn't quite believe it. So we shot this video in January. 2013 and you know most of the time comic relief is not fucking funny you know that right you ever watch that telephone whatever it's just it's always shit man it's always just like

actors thinking they can do comedy fuck off let's do a version of whatever the show whatever the fuck old white people in corsets let's let's do a version of that but it's it's like a funny version yeah imagine and we did it and it just killed it just killed the internet like bang People were like, what, that's hilarious. It was clear there was such a brilliant chemistry between you two. Yeah, but we had it going for a minute there. It was good. And we do gigs in character, you know,

musical gigs in character. It was a lot of fun. We shot loads of cool stuff, man. The movie was probably the most fun I've had on a film set ever. Yes, that's some, like, is it life on the road? Yeah, you know, it's not people's favourite film, but I don't really care about that. I'm just glad it wasn't complete shit, do you know what I mean?

for the first movie I did to be rubbish. But actually my track record, as tiny as it is, is pretty much, it's pretty class. The first film I worked on was Attack the Block, which is an amazing film. Do you know what I like about you, Ben, is that you just say, oh, that was a good thing that I did. You know how people tend to be a bit,

they sort of skirt around it a bit, because they feel it's a sort of polite thing to do or make them seem likable. So, oh, it wasn't very good. You know, so I wrote a book, I have a habit. Some say I loved your book. I'll say, oh, it was just a...

And it's really... You have to teach yourself to say, thank you. I was proud of that piece of work. Absolutely. And you've got to be honest with yourself when it's shit as well. And I think if you can do those two things, which is easy to do if you keep the same people around you.

I've not really made any new friends, you know, since being in show business. I've still got the same people around me. And they just tell you... They tell you how it is, man. And they know when you're getting too big for your boots. And you've been with your other half for a long time, haven't you? Yeah.

We met at a youth club. I should stress that she was a staff member, not a child. What was your impression of her when you first met her? Did you really have a... I do she didn't like me. I do she didn't like me at all. I knew exactly what she thought of me and I was right. She thought I was arrogant, selfish, self-absorbed.

Yeah, she was spot on, but she's a good judge of character like that. So did you have to sort of win her over? Yeah, definitely. Did you? Yeah. Yeah, it was worth it. She has the power and the intelligence and most of all the empathy to make me a better person. And that's not like, you know, grinding your other half down to the nub that you think is acceptable, which women get

accused of doing a lot. It's not that. It's more like there's something missing from all of us, right? And if someone else can bring some of that missing piece to make you more of a whole, that's, you know, that's a valuable person to have on your team. She cares about people. She gives a shit. She tries to do the best by herself and other people every single day. She's such a positive person. She's a teacher, you know, it's the best possible. position for someone with that demeanour and that outlet and yeah you don't often meet people like that because people are generally quite self-motivated you know and you know isolation I don't think has helped that you know

people are very kind of like fuck everybody but me and there's a lot of dishonesty you know how nice that you've been with are this length of time so you just know there's a real purity to that in the business you're in I think. Yeah and it's not it's not easy it's not an easy thing to maintain. Relationships are really really complicated and they require a lot of hard work and MOTs and stuff like that. Sometimes you just let them drift or you let a resentment build you know those those are the things that danger every single relationship. So you've got to be on it, you got to be on it but yeah the main

thing is just keep being grateful and be reminded that other people can make you better, you You know, empathy is the key. Empathy's the key. You started writing kids books, which are really lovely, actually, because you've worked a lot. You've done, you did the bedtime stories. Yeah. That was a big deal.

That was a huge deal. I really wanted to get on that show. It's fucking hard to get on that show. Like Judy Dench was in front of me. I thought they'd be like so, you know, like, oh my God, like he's actually asked if he can be on it. We've been trying to get him on this for you. No.

No, motherfuckers are queuing up to get on Betsy Bibi's bedtime stories. It's Tom Hardy doing it. It's fucking Tom Hardy done it, do you know what I mean? So I knew it was a big deal. I was only doing it for my kids, though, at the time. I didn't realise what a big thing it was. But I thought it would be a big deal for my kids. But it took me so long to get up the queue to, like, Judy Dench,

that by the time I was on it, my kids were too old to give a shit. They don't care. And so your new book, which is coming out of June, and it's called? It's called Something I Said. It comes out on June the 10th which is the same day that my mum is published in her first novel. How bizarre is that? That's complete and utter coincidence.

Not like some plan that we had or anything. It's just man. The stars have aligned. We need to talk about your book but tell me about your mom's book. It's called The Day I Fell Off My Island and it's just charts the journey of this teenage girl from Jamaica to here. and the family complications and the inherited trauma that is buzzing around sort of gives you an idea of the early, the late, this contemporary, late contemporary Jamaican culture,

but also like early contemporary black British culture. It shows you a bit of both of those and it's funny as well. And your book is called? Something I said, it's on Bloomsbury. It's a, so it was what they call a middle grade novel. So I just wrote it like an adult novel for kids, really. It's like it feels like a family movie. That's what it feels like.

It feels like a good contemporary family movie. It's very real world. There's no dragons. There's no fantasy. There's no portal to another dimension. Is there stand-up or comedy? There is some stand-up in it. It's about a kid who's like nearly 13

who through various contrivances ends up doing stand-up in a very sort of organic way. But it's kind of a response to what's going on in his life. But yeah, it ends up on a big sort of epic journey for him in a literal sense because he goes to America. But it's a circular story that brings him back home to his place in Camden where he starts to realise how much of his life, was actually falling apart, you know.

It just took him a really weird journey to work it out. So it's kind of like a wholesome family comedy. No, no, I hate it. Writing is horrible. Isn't it? Isn't it? It's to do that. It's so hard.

Like, having the proof in my hands is incredible. Really is. But yeah, the process of it, oh my God, I'm going to wish it on my worst enemy. So tedious. You've said, haven't you, that you're, because Adi, obviously. I don't know how she does it. Really? Nah.

It's like, close-up magic. You know it's happening. It's happening in front of your eyes, but you just can't work out how it's being done. What's the trick? It's just what she does, man. It's different. It's not what I do, do you know what I mean?

It's something that I try. What did you think when she first got it so successful? Were you aware when you first read her staff? Did you think there's something really special here? Yeah. It was no surprise. It was amazing the heights it got to for her to be like at one time

maybe the biggest offer in the world. But it was no surprise that she delivered something amazing because she was a freak of nature from her early age, you know. The speed that she was reading novels as a little child, you know. Scary.

Speed reading. And then, you know, she just wanted to write with like a, 12th birthday we got her typewriter and she tried to write a novel on it. Do you mean? At 12 years old. And then at 5th, I think she was 14 or 15, and she won like a writing competition for just 17.

Remember that magazine for girls? She was like the guest fan editor. She edited a whole issue of that. So she was like 14 or 15. Even before that, like when she was 8, she came second in a national writing competition sponsored by Smarties. And the face of it was this character, Dr. Smartypants, who was an alter ego of Michael Rosen. So Michael Rosen was kind of the face of it in character, it was Dr. Smartty Pants.

And she came second in a national writing competition. It was like all on TV and that. You know, we had a photo of her with Michael Rosen wearing the Dr. Smartty Pants glasses and these big blue frames and doctor's jacket, you know, hand on the shoulder kind of thing, doing a silly face and that's always been on you know how everybody from the 80s they've got those collages in their kitchen you know all the cut out photos behind a frame of glass it's at the bottom of that I always look at it and then obviously getting into like writing for kids I see uh we've got this one booking coming up a couple years back it's maybe 2018 or 19 at a book festival in

Cheltenham so I go there and I see on the line up Michael Rosen's going to be there So when I saw him, I suddenly lost my nerve and I didn't speak to him. And then I went into the toilet just before I went on stage and he came in. And then, because it was just the two of us, I thought, that's the men's not really a best place to start conversation. But I said, hey, 1980, whatever it was, 1982, 1983, I got a photo of you in my kitchen. Like, and you ran this Dr. Smarty fan Smarty's like best. children's right of competition. And he was like, oh, I remember that.

He goes, I still got the glasses. And I showed him because I'd taken a picture, having seen that he was going to be there before I'd taken a picture when I was at my mum's and had it on my phone. I was like, look at that, I still got the photo. And he was like, wow. I said, see that girl there?

She came second. And he was like, oh, bless. And I was like, yes, my sister. He said, bless. I said, she is now the well-renowned author, Zadie Smith. and one of her first inspirations at the earliest possible age was you.

And he was just like, fuck, yeah, no. It feels like nothing but a positive thing that Zadie's success was simply a total inspiration for you. Yeah, it was the thing that made me think, right, anything is possible. It is possible to just live off your ideas, that thing that was always in the back of my mind. And yet, you know, for another,

seven years after white teeth, I was still just doing youth work. But it was in the back of my mind every day, you belong somewhere else. The thing was, I actually really enjoyed youth works. It wasn't like I was in next for seven years, going, I've got to get out of it. You're. It wasn't like that. You're finished. It wasn't like that at all.

I really loved that job and I still in touch with that organization that I worked with and still see the kids, they're all adults now. And it was a wrench to leave when I realized I can't do this and stand up. It's too hard. So, yeah, but I had no fear going and stand up and thinking I'll make a living from it because of Zadie, because of like, look, you can do this. Like when you go into my mum's house, you go into the living room, there's a bookshelf. And it's just got hundreds of copies of white teeth and on duty, like in like hundreds of different languages. It's just got all the different releases.

And you go in, you see that and you think that way, that's it, isn't it? can, your ideas can travel the world in some form. And you can share ideas and have other people go, yes, that's what the fuck I feel. You know, connection is everything. And you go and you see that and you're like, anything's possible. Anything's possible. You were saying you lost your dad? Yeah, 2006.

I'm really sorry. That must have been tough. Yeah, it was, you know, I cried when I heard. But then I was very much like, right, down to business. because Zadie was still living in New York and he didn't speak to his other son. And I was the one who was nearest by to just sort things out. So I was very, you hear this from a lot of people.

Like they become quite businesslike in the days following loss. And it sort of keeps the wolf at the door. That's what I realized because it wasn't until the funeral itself when I spoke, I was just a mess trying to speak. I couldn't speak, it was a mess. That's when it hit me. And it's mad because I really met my other brother that day.

I'd only met him once before when I was like three years old. Yeah, yeah. And they'd not spoken for, you know, a generation. And I actually met him then and got him really well. Yeah, and then his son and me were actually, we're quite close. It's funny how like, you know, all those things of the past, you inherit them. And when you meet the next generation, you're like, the only reason, I don't speak to you is to other people's issue.

Like it doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, in a weird way, his death brought about more of a closeness with certain people. I have therapy and I'm really quite evangelical about it because I think it's a good thing to do. Yes, great thing to do. Do you have therapy or have you had it? Miko, shush. It's because that boy had a big stick.

Yeah. I think everybody should at least try it, man. Like, why not? Like I say we were saying earlier about like your problems, when you say them out loud and someone else goes, oh yeah, I've done that or I've had that or my mate's done that. It immediately doesn't belittle them. It immediately just makes them a bit more manageable because you've just said it out loud. There's a Chinese saying because you know how you stack up your problems? And they say like if it's a problem you can fix, then why worry?

If it's a problem you can't fix, then why worry? Because you can't fix it. So it's sort of, it's reminiscent of the serenity prayer, isn't it? Where they say like... Yeah. The wisdom to know the difference. The wisdom to know the difference. The changes, you know, like what you can and can't change.

Like, what's out of your control? It's out of your power. You're not a people-pleaser. I'm saying that. I don't know. Are you a people-pleaser? I think everybody's a people-pleaser to some extent. It's very rare that you get the same face of a person.

person everywhere they go. Those type of people, like my wife's like that, you know, those type of people who are just the same with absolutely everyone. They're amazing. Those are good people, right? How are you with confrontation then? Do you can... No, I don't like that. Who likes confrontation? Like, that's what you... Donald Trump? Yeah, but he's not British. Like, if you're British, like, it's got to be the number one thing you're trying to avoid with every second, every inch of your being. Like, the Confrontational people in my life, like they're amazing, they're unique people. They've got this like incredible skill.

I don't know how they do it. You know those people who are just like, no, fuck that. You know those people? Wait, no, fuck that. No, no, fuck that. No, no, fuck that. Yo, yo. Boss man, come here.

Bro, you see you just stepped in front of my bridge in there. Oh, no, I was just going, oh, you were fucking babbling now, bro. Get the fuck to the back of the queue. Everyone in the queue be like, yay, yeah, yeah. I look at those people as like magicians, don't you? Those people who just, they just know what to say in the moment. Yeah, but then I'm a person in the back of the queue going, yay! Yeah, I'm just another bod in the queue clapping.

I'm not that guy. Let me tell you how bad my confrontation skills are, right? There was one time I want to take my brother to this Teppaniaki place in Camden. You know where they prepare the food on the hot plate in front of you. They're like at the bench and they're cooking. and some incredible Japanese shit on that hot plate. It's a hot table thing. It was mad expensive, but I saw they had a two for one night.

So I said, let's go on two for one night. And then we can properly just taste everything and have some booze. So he went, and it was good. And the bill came, and I was like, what the fuck? I was thinking it was going to be like 150 pounds max, like maybe 100, 100 pounds, I don't know, somewhere in that zone. And it was like 240. And I was like, what the fuck?

I was called the waiter, I was like, you've got the bill wrong. He's like, I didn't spend nearly that, like, it's at least half that. He was like, no, no, that's the right, it's correct. And I was like, well, can I speak to the manager then? The manager comes out, and I'm like, worked up at this point. And I'm like, you're trying to rip me off at $240 quid. I was adding it up as I went, it should at least be about half that, if anything, should be $130 max. And he goes, I was like, yeah.

And I was like, you know, it's two for one. You're trying to like, dude, you're trying to kill me here. And he was like, two for one Tuesday, today, Wednesday. And you know when you're already up, like you're already up? You're on, you know, so you're loud and people are looking at you. And you have to do such an immediate climb down. I couldn't come climb down straight away. So I was like, yeah, well,

You know, should be a Wednesday. Should be a Wednesday. Because more people want to do something because it's hump day. So you've got the day wrong. Oh, there's an Alsatian. See, I'm a bit older than you then. So I grew up in the 70s and they always... There's 70s dog the Alsatian.

She loves a coffee. She just taken the empty coffee cup out of her hand. I thought she was giving me an affectionate kiss. She knocked the coffee up my hand. Outrageous. Did you have animals growing up? No. No, and I think that's why I always wanted one.

You always want what you don't have, isn't it? So we've had a cat for a while and went all in and got the dog. And yes, they do hate each other. And why did you, so you didn't, your parents weren't really pet people? Nah. You know, in Jamaica, like an animal works. You don't just have an animal sitting around doing fuck all, not earning its keep. and you're paying for it.

You're giving money to the fucker. What? No, he's supposed to be earning you money. So that relationship was a non-starter. And then with my dad's family, I don't know, like, I think you probably did get a lot of dogs with working-class families, but I just don't think he had it. He grew up with dogs, so it wasn't on his agenda.

But yeah, my mum was, she was proper anti-animal. Like, they work for you, and then you eat them. That's it. your friends say in terms of you know I always think you have certain friends that you think I call then when dot dot dot what would the answer to that question be do you think if you asked your friends what do I what do I provide for you yeah I hope I I I like to think I'm the guy who like does try and check up on people do you know what with my close friends, you know how it is with close friends, you just fucking never see them, you know,

even before the pandemic, you know, it's not like the old days when you're young and you're just hooking up all the time, you know, so friendship changes. But it's important to keep those day one people there because they know you way better than, than you think, you know. So they're good people to have around. And yeah, I would like to think they'd say, oh yeah, he does, you know, he shouts me, he'll sort out, he'll sort out a get together. Are you quite a good inner crisis, do you think? Are you someone, a friend would call and say, I've got this problem? Yeah.

Yeah, that happened on Thursday. It happened just last week, so I'd say the answer to that is I'm quite a cool head. Yeah, I can see. Yeah. But like I said, the confrontation thing, I'm not like necessarily like the best in an emergency emergency. You're not let's roll. I'm not let's roll, no. I'm like, let's think.

Hold on, let's have to think about this. Or let's talk Mika, come Come here Come on meeks, we're nearly there We've got to go And you just run out of batteries Hey, come here

I'm really looking forward to Getting your book for my niece Because I think it's The book I'm super proud of man The book is I can't wait for it to come out I can't wait to do readings Do you think it's nice as well

That kids, you get such a genuine reaction Because they're not thinking Oh I know who he is So I'll be nice to him about it that thing. They're just saying, I reacted and related to this thing. My friend's brother, oh wow, look at that. My friend's brother was, he was doing like a kids comedy thing. Like, he always tried to get me to do it. He's like, yeah, kids love you. I said no every single time. Yeah. Just out of the fear of dying in front of kids. Like, it's nothing worse. The way they look at you.

Kids don't give a fuck. They ask me to come in and talk to the schools. I remember going into one school and so shouts the kids, they're just looking at me. Right. And one, I say, okay, let's, open up, I get some questions. And one kid puts his hand up, he goes, if you're famous, how come your trainers ain't new? And I was just like, this very different, like, writing for kids and actually performing for kids. So I actually have started writing bits and pieces specifically for kids, but, you know, you die in front of them. It's, it's painful. They don't business.

They will tell you. They'll let you know. Right. I have loved meeting you and I've really enjoyed a walk. Thank you so much, Ben. Yeah, pleasure. Say goodbye. Bye-bye, bye.

Thank you so much. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.