Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ed Balls (Part One)

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

We’ve taken a trip to West Yorkshire this week to meet broadcaster and former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls for a stroll around the beautiful Pontefract Racecourse. Ed doesn't have a dog at the moment - but he's very much a dog person. He tells us how he was replaced by a dog when he went to university, and a dog has helped his family cope with his mother’s dementia. We also find out about Ed’s experience at Harvard (once he had worked out where it was located on a map) and whether he cried when he lost his seat in the 2015 General Election. Political Currency is availble on all podcast platforms!Follow Ed on instagram @edballsYou can buy your copy of Ed’s brilliant book Appetite: a memoir in recipes of family and food here! Thank you to Handpicked Hotels for hosting us at their dog friendly hotel Wood Hall during our trip to Yorkshire. Raymond was throughly spoiled and he loved his mini break! Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're not a hugger, you can't really do well and strictly. I arrived back and I thought, you know, I can't be hugging Jeanette Manorara or Catcher James and not my dad. So I would put my arms out and the fear in his face. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I popped up to Yorkshire to take a stroll around Wakefield's beautiful Pontefract Park with former Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, who's gone on to become something of a national treasure, Ed Balls. Ed doesn't have a dog currently, but he is very much a dog fan and he seems to have just. about forgiven his parents for deciding to finally get a golden retriever just as he was leaving to go to university. Ed is obviously a fascinating person to talk to because he's led such an

interesting life, both in politics and subsequently as a broadcaster, presenter, and let's not forget, most memorable strictly come dancing contestant ever. But he's also just a really entertaining and charming person to spend time with, because he's got what I would call charisma and what my Gen Zed producer referred to as Riz. I had such a lovely stroll with Ed chatting about his early life with the Balls family, and yes, he did get teased a lot for that surname, his political career and the reputation he got as a bruiser, and the first time he met his wife, Yvette Cooper,

or to give her her proper title, the current Home Secretary. One of the things I really liked about Ed was how funny and lacking in arrogance he was. And trust me, if I'd have been to Harvard, you wouldn't catch me, dismissing it as a college in America I studied at. I'm also a huge fan of the podcast he now does with former Chancellor George Osborne, political currency, where they debate politics and economics, bringing all of their experience into play. And it's a really fascinating listen, so I can't recommend it enough. You can also catch Ed on GMB, where he presents regularly, and do check out his culinary theme memoir, Appetite, because it's a thing of joy. I'm going to stop talking now and

hand over to the fabulous man himself. Here's Ed and Ray Ray. I was here yesterday and I ran four miles. I feel sorry to have kept you waiting. Four miles. I did two laps. Avet and I came and she did the first lap and I did two laps and actually I've not done four miles for a while and I was quite a lot of pain this morning. So I've come back and I'm slightly triggered. So we don't have to run do we? No, we don't have to run but I should. The dog can run. Have you seen Raymond Ed? Yeah, well, I'm certainly worried about Raymond as in kind of like two miles around this racetrack is a hell of a long way for Raymond.

In dog miles, this is like a half marathon. So at a key moment, you might have to pick him up or I might have to pick him up. Be honest, Ed. Does he look a bit like a pampered London pooch? He does a bit. So I should just apologise. My family have dogs.

And it's like tradition. My dad calls him by their name. And me and my brother and sister would always say the dog. You know, where's the dog? or, you know, somebody get the dog. So when I said just there, the dog, it wasn't being rude. It was just like almost instinctive. So I should call Raymond Raymond.

That's interesting, though. If I slip into the dog, because my dad will say, oh, I'm not sure I can do that. And we say, oh, goodness gracious, the dog will be fine. See what I mean? So that's kind of like a thing. That's interesting, though, that you go for the dog and not the name. Why do you think that is? Maybe because there's been more than one.

And, you know, over the years, and you slightly forget, Which one it is? I went to university when I was 18 and I was basically replaced by a dog. My parents got their first dog within a month of me going to university. Is this Tess? Tess.

I know all about Tess. Tess is fabulous. We're going to discuss Tess. Tess, I think I called Tess. Every dog after that was not quite Tess. Come along, Raymond. Follow ed balls. Come on, Raymond.

Heal. Does Raymond respond to commands? Well, let's give it a go. I mean, I think you're quite commanding. Heal. Sit. Stay. You sounded like Gordon Brown.

Oh yeah. It's very good to be on this walk with you today. Thanks for all you do. With our dog Tess, the one which was replaced me when I was 18, you could say to Tess now, stay. Yeah. And we could walk all the way. We could walk as far as you can see.

And she would sit there and you'd say, come. And she would rent you. It was amazing. Well thanks Ed for telling us about a really obedient clever and intelligent dog It's fairly clear he doesn't want to come on this walk Sorry Raymond it's a long way If you're a horse it's not so far

We should say we are at a racetrack So if you're a horse it's not so far But if you're Raymond It's like getting to the base come of Everest I should set the scene Because I've come To go for a walk with a very wonderful Ed Balls I'm so excited

to walk with this man. Oh look, there's another dog already. Goodness. Thank God you're carrying Raymond. He'd have been eaten alive by that boxer. Did you see how he was slavering? Yeah. I think you were lunch, right, aren't you? I think he was. And it's Yorkshire we're in. We are in Yorkshire. We're in West Yorkshire.

And we're specifically in Pontifract. We are. Because that is, happens to be, Evette Cooper's constituency. That's right. And you happen to be married to Evac Cooper. I haven't been married to Evac Cooper. and have been for 26 years this year. Oh, how lovely.

And we've lived in Castleford, which is just the other side of the motorway, also part of the constituency for 26 years. So we moved in about a month after we got married. And you've brought me to the race course? I have. I brought you to Pontefret race course. Which was optimistic,

but you hadn't met Ray at that point. I know, I hadn't quite factored in the length of this walk. To do one circuit of two miles, Sometimes the horses start from here and do the full two miles, but generally they start from slightly further round. We're going down the hill towards the M62 and they swing round and come back to the finishing line. Wow. It's really beautiful here, Ed, isn't it? It's really good. The reason I like this is partly I like it because you start walking and you end up where you started because it's a circle. Yes.

And also it's big and open. So you get a bit of raw of the motorway down here, but then, you know, this is urban, West Yorkshire, so what do you expect? But it's open, on a sunny day, it's really bright and sparkly. Right, Ed, what are you, Foxton's? You're behaving like Foxtons, you're selling me this, the estate agent. Yeah, I know. It is stunning. Oh, and there's a lake as well. Good schools, leisure facilities, nice shops, artisan bakeries, anything you want. Is there a gales? No, there's no gales. Come here. However, we have a brilliant farm shop called Farmercoplies.

which 26 years ago, when they started, was a little room on the side of the farm. And now it's like a massive award-winning complex butchers, bakers, everything. But they also do like, you know, you can go into the maze fields and you can go and see them doing demonstration cooking and pumpkin fields. But it's the best butcher in Britain. Wow. Or maybe the second best or equal first with meat N16 in Statenayunton. I'll be in trouble if I say it's the best.

equal best. See, already he started on the food. Well, in the end, in life, there's many things if you're Foxtons, which you'd want to use to sell a place. But I would say proximity to a good butcher is possibly top three. Okay. Well, Raymond would agree with you. So Ed, as I say, I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much for inviting us up here to see you. I want to start by getting into your history with dogs. Yep. Because you haven't turned up with a dog, but I forgive you. No, I fought a dog having a dog for a long time. Because I know what the truth would be. Which is?

My youngest daughter keeps saying, has said for 10 years, can't we have a dog? And the vet says, can't she have a dog? But the truth is, because we've always moved between London during the weekend, Yorkshire, because of the constituencies, it would be quite hard anyway. But also, I would walk the dog and feed the dog. And they would not actually apply themselves. it would be me and I just don't think I could add a dog in.

So it's very nice to walk your dog. But then a bit like a grandparent with grandchildren. At the end of our meeting, I will go home and you keep the dog. Do you see what I mean? It's sort of how you want it. Come on Raymond. Raymond is so on strike. Raymond is looking across there and thinking seriously.

Do you know what's happened? What you need is a little trolley. Well, no, what happened is that he got so excited when he arrived here yesterday. He loves new places, he loved who was staying in a lovely hotel, and he really loved it, and he was running around, getting spoiled, eating sausages, and now he's choked on the big day. He's like a premiership footballer who has gone out the night before in the town and got drunk. Yes.

And now this morning you've got to perform, you can't do it. As a support of Norwich City all of my life, at times, regularly, it looks like, you know, our star players may have been out the night before. But that's just the nature of supporting a football team. You think, where have you been? So, talk me through the history of pets with your family. We had a goldfish. That was it.

And every now and then, it used to turn upside down in the tank. When this happened, we knew this was a crisis. But I had one of those action mans, which would go down in the bath. And you could pump it, it would go down. And what we learned was, if somebody yelled, and you ran down with the actual man pump and shoved it in the golfish bowl, pump really hard. It would rewrite the goldfish and it would swim on for some months before another flip. And I think it may have been overfeeding.

I don't know. I think my brother, who was seven years younger than me, may have thrown in too much food. But every now and then we'd have to repump the goldfish. But other than that, we weren't particularly a pet family. However, my uncle, who was a bank manager at Barclays in Norfolk, they had dogs. And they would have, actually, Labrador. but they were guide dogs who failed the test. You know, guide dogs would be trained,

but certain dogs can't quite make it. And the first dog they had, which I remember, so I would have been about five, six, it's called Envoy, who basically, Envoy. Who were key moments. The reason I know it was called, I remember the Envoy, because there was all these newspaper cuttings above his basket. Envoy called to Moscow.

And you'd think, why is the Envoy gone to Moscow? And it turned out it was a different envoy. Anyway, so, but Envoy's problem was in key moments when he saw a ball, off he went. And if you're a guide dog, this is bad, do you know what I mean? And he couldn't quite assume the discipline. But in every other way, he was brilliantly trained. But if you threw a ball, he was off. If he saw a ball, he went wild.

And Envoy was the most wonderful dog. And we would go to my uncle and aunt had a timeshare in Portugal. and so we would go to stay in their house in Sheringham for a week or two weeks in August when they went to the timeshare and look after Envoy and my job was to walk Envoy twice a day with the ball and so it was it was fabulous but we never had a dog until I went to university when I was 18 in about a month or so later my dad said we've decided to get a dog and I kind of realized they needed a replacement and so they um they've got a little bit of got a six-week-old little retriever puppy called Tess. She was called Tess Normanton Princess. Normanton was the village where we took her for walks. And that was your... went on to be your constituency. No. No, different Normanton, different... Oh, is it?

Normanton on Trent in Nottingshire that was... Oh! But Princess was because my dad had a Austin Princess, which she was very proud of. So she was named after the red car. Ridiculous, isn't it? And I came back from University university after my first or second term and me my little brother spent the whole of the holiday training her she arrived on my first day back which meant that i had this deep bond with tess because i trained her to do everything in that period but my little brother who at the time would have been 11 test had this basic view of the world which is hierarchical so my mum and dad she

totally respected because they fed her and me i trained her and my sister all also because she was quite big. My little brother, she basically decided in the hierarchy of the family she was senior. So all of us could say to test, sit, stay, run. As I said, you could say to her stay, walk for a mile and she'd then come. My little brother, if he ever said at any command to here, she'd looked him like, you've got to be joking. Oh really? Seriously. So she basically concluded in the hierarchy of the family she was senior to him. Yeah. And then my mum and dad have had Labradors ever since and my mum has now been in in a home in Norwich now for I'm going to say six years and for my dad the dog as we say which is now Sophie is absolute lifeline I mean she is the most important thing

that he's his partner in life and they go to see my mum my mum comes to the house two or three times a week for lunch she doesn't speak now but she is aware of what's happened happening around her, she has dementia. She has dementia, yeah. And she's had dementia for 20 years. Yeah. Very long time. So it's tough, but the... The dog has helped. I mean, no, the dog is, is a vital part of the family. So I'm a dog person. I should tell you, Ed Miliband came on this podcast and he said Raymond looked like a toupee. What do you think of that, Ed Balls? I think it's a bit harsh. No, I wouldn't say that. I'd say, um, I'd say it's actually a rather stylish centre parting, which is, you know, is not uncommon amongst the youth.

The wrong person won that leadership election. Oh, this is ridiculous. What was he thinking? I read your really lovely book. It's called Appetite. Your book Appetite about sort of your lifelong relationship with food, essentially, and all the memories that sparked and how significant it's been. And there was something you mentioned in that, which I thought was. really interesting. You referred to your dog, Tess. You said that you felt your parents weren't sort of natural huggers. And actually what the dog did, I found this fascinating. The dog kind of gave them a ramp into being a bit more demonstrative. Is that fair? But my mum and dad were both

very loving parents. Yeah. Very supportive. Very kind of drove us on, also understood. But they had not grown up in families where I think you had a lot of hugging and kissing. My mum, I think, you did, but it wasn't sort of effusive. There was always an English reserve. My mum was a great observer of the world. And often our kids or a vet will say, you're being like your mother. Because we'll be out and I'll say, what's she wearing? Look at that. Look at that.

Look at that. And my mum was always like that. So there was always like a kind of impish observational humour about my mum. But the dog definitely meant that they went out to walk the dog together. We went. There was more going out and talking and being together because you had to with the dog. And every time the East Ender's music went, Dog Bart jumped up. That was a moment.

And so that was what sparked the walks. I do think dogs are helpful for that. People often say I'm not a hugger. And I think, I don't know if that's true. I sometimes think, well, maybe you've just never been given an entry point into hugging. And again, it's a generational thing and that's all it is sometimes. Older men particularly. But I felt when I met you, I felt comfortable saying, oh, why don't we hug?

Because I could tell instinctively there's more of an informality. and I guess friendliness about you that makes me think that would be okay. I wouldn't have said to Jacob Rees-Mogg, are you a hugger? I think, though, strictly, you find out in that moment, if you're not a hugger, you can't really do well on strictly. But once you are on strictly, everybody hugs all the time. And so my dad, who, by the way, thought it was a terrible thing

to go on this programme and then have to admit he was wrong, from that moment, because I think although the dog had opened up a bit of that sort of more emotional space my dad still wasn't hugging until strictly and then from that I arrived back and I thought you know I can't be hugging you know

Jeanette Manrara or Catcher Jones and not my dad so I would put my arms out and the fear in his face kind of like what are you doing and I would come towards him and I now I hugged my uncle my uncle John he always looks totally shocked I actually went out for lunch last Friday

with um there's a journalist called Bill Keegan been writing to The Observer the observer for decades, a very old friend of mine. And we went out for lunch. It's the same age as my dad. And so you'd sort of just gone mid-80s. And as we left, I put out my arms and he said, you're the only person I do this with, the only one.

And we had a little hug. And I sort of think, you know, slowly, slowly I'm drawing Bill into the 20th century. Or the 21st century. I'm not shy of me anyway. Either, either. 21st. And your family energy, I've got the sense that your mum, like you were saying, she was not sort of, you struck me as someone who's got a bit of a mischievous streak in you.

In terms of you have a good sense of humour and I'm interested in the fact that you were also clearly a very academic kid, weren't you? What was the sort of energy like in your family? Was there a lot of laughter? Was it quite sort of ordered and controlled and disciplined? So my dad was an academic, first generation to go to university. His dad, who drove for the gas company in Norwich, died when he was 11. And there was no income into the family other than the post-war welfare state. But he and his middle brother both went to university, and he went on to be an academic.

and he was our role model in that way. And me and my brother both followed in that path. But my mum had left school at 16. Her mum had multiple cirrhosis. And she was really smart my mum, but never had formal education beyond 16. But she had kind of music. And in some ways, you're right, that mischievous laughter.

But they were good together because the spontaneity, I remember we would be sitting in the sitting room. on a Saturday evening at like 6 o'clock. And my dad would say to my mum, I don't like the wallpaper in here. And my mum would say, neither do I. And he'd say, but it's been there for ages.

And she said, I know, why? So my mum would go over and get a corner. My dad would say, go on. She'd rip it. Big rip with the wallpaper. Total catastrophe. What that meant was, the next morning at 8 o'clock,

they'd be getting up, going off, buy the wallpaper, strip all day, wallpaper up. They did the wallpaper. And they thought, This was hilarious, the idea that in that moment you'd think, let's totally wreck our living room. Right.

And so that kind of thing, and as I said, my mum was always kind of was very observational in a sort of slightly inappropriate way. And one of the kind of challenges of dementia, she's beyond this point now, but one of the challenges of dementia is you lose a lot of your self-policing. So there was a period where my mum would just say the most shocking things, which of course were the things which had always been in her mind, She'd always thought, shouldn't say that. Suddenly that filter went. But there was also an austereness to them. So our holidays were basically, we would go to places in Wales or Yorkshire or, I don't know, Shropshire. And then just go on walks every day.

And then you get up high in the middle of the day. And then my mum would get out the gas stove, which my dad would light. And they would make cup of soup and we'd drink it. And the thing which was the best thing, we're the only people, I mean the only kids who thought like this when they were young, the best days is when it rained because it really rained. You couldn't go out. We could stay in all day. And that was actually rather better than some of the damp experiences we had, having been Australian sleep at lunchtime. So they were adventurous, but in a narrow, you know, confined way.

I didn't go on an airplane until I went to graduate school after university. We never went on any foreign holidays. Do you know what I find very telling about you? you just said until I went to graduate school after university. Now I happened to know full well what the name of that graduate school is and it's Harvard. You could have said Harvard you didn't. And I think that says quite a lot about you. All of it good.

It was funny. I had an American philosophy teacher at university and he had said that he had come over as a Rhodes Scholar in the 50s on a boat to England for the first time and he was a stage from America. He was a road scholar. And road scholar, that's like Bill Clinton was a road scholar, wasn't he? That's like the top American scholarship. Yeah. And he said to me, he said, you should apply for the Kennedy Scholarship,

which goes in the other direction. It was a public subscription after JFK died in the 63. And so there's been these Kennedy Scholars 10 a year, and I applied, and I got a Kennedy scholarship to go to Harvard, and I suddenly realized. I had to go to the library to find a map. I didn't know. I didn't know where Harvard was or where Boston was.

It kind of something embarrassing to realize this now. I didn't even know if it was on the east coast of the west coast of America. So at the time, I don't think Harvard really meant anything to me, but it was an adventure. It was like a setting out. I travelled loads after that. But until then, you know, my horizon was, you know, the Shropshire Mendoor Snowdonia. You ended up going to Oxford and then Harvard.

which all sounds like that's the trajectory of someone who's born into immense privilege generally. And of course that wasn't really the case with you, was it? Can I just call you for a second? Is it possible for you to go to the motorway? I've never done that in 25 years and I would advise against it because I don't think we'll make it. Okay. Let's go. I don't think we'll make it.

I don't want to get lost. Honestly, I think the motorway noise is part of the charm. Okay. I think you may have just, I know it's bad. It's totally fine. It's totally fine. It will go. It will be with us for a while.

while though. I don't know that there's a way through there. I'm going to say, I'm not somebody of habit, but I've never done it before. You see, Ed, he's a creature of habit. I know. You are a creature of habit, Ed. So if you can hear Jaggernaut's thundering past, the reason for this is because Ed, he won't change his ways. Ed likes going this way and he's insisting that we stay on this way. I'm not getting frightened of him.

This is the way. It is obviously the way. Nobody else is turning left there, honestly. Nobody. We should point out that that is the M62, which crosses with the M1. For anyone who's still listening. Look, a little bit of geographic location.

And if you go that way, it's the A one. We are at the next, we are the crossroads of Britain here. It's really exciting. Ed Balls on roads. I'd watch it. There's also a train line there, but let's not go into that. Oh, please, Ed. I know.

The train spotters have been distorted. So, yeah, the fact that you ended up going to Oxford and then Harvard is something, when it's a huge achievement for anyone, do you think you always had that sense, I suppose, of being, of, I can do this, why not me? Well, I think the truth is the achievement was for my mum and dad, because they had both come from working class background. Norwich or you know you could say lower middle class background my mum's dad was a butcher my dad's dad was absolutely you know did a working class job my dad was a first generation to go to

university for them education was such a big deal but we had you know we were comfortable and i actually went to nottingham high school um might they decided to pay um so we went to a fee paying school so be silly of me to say this wasn't a privileged background on the other hand that's why we never went on a foreign holiday, there was never any money. That's what they spent the money on. So it was, there was a lot of sacrifice. Do you think maybe when you got older, you realised, that's why we were having copper suit.

I don't think I realised. At the time, I don't think I realised, but in retrospect, that was absolutely what it was about. That was why you were so proud of the car. Because it had to last a lot of years. The princess went on and on and on. Were they the kind of family to have said, oh my God, my son's got into Oxford?

Oh my God, my son's got into Harvard. throw a party and let's ring up all the neighbours. They don't strike me as those people though. Well, they were very proud. Yeah. But they never ever wanted to publicly celebrate. And I think one of the things, you know, much later, because it wasn't talked about very much, I went to Harvard, I ended up in the treasury, I became a cabinet minister.

And I think it was only people saying to me how proud my mum and dad were. Yeah. Which maybe you understand because it wasn't talked about. I think as they got older, as we've had kids, the conversation about those things in the family is more open. Right. But I think then, no, did my mum and dad ever say, we're really proud of you for getting into Oxford or Harvard? No. But did I know they were?

Yes. Yeah. But that's what I mean. You know, that me getting into Oxford coincided with the arrival of the dog and therefore the opening up of this sort of new. You know, but until then, no, not really. Yeah. We are closest to the motorway we're going to be. See, you see that big transport of all those cars on it.

It's going on all about transporters now. I can't actually bear it. I'm just apologising to the sound team. So. Oh my gosh, look. Oh, listen, there's a train. What kind of train is that? A small train.

That is, I think, going to Leeds through Custford. But I mean, what do I know? I'm exactly a small train. So Little Ed packing his bags, going off to Harvard. I know. And meeting all these, I imagine immensely privileged sort of white men at Harvard at that time. It was very international, actually. Was it?

Yeah, and it was much more diverse than I had experienced in my life until then. Right. But yeah. You came back and you got a job at the financial table. Times, didn't you? As a leader writer, which is still a pretty good job to get. Did you at that point, you must have been interested in politics, obviously. Was that stirring around in your head? Maybe I could get involved in this? Or were you set on journalism? No, no, definitely not set on journalism. And yes, it was stirring around in my head. And I wanted to work in economic policy

for the government in the Treasury for a Labour government. That's what it was. Who thinks that when they're younger? Most people think, oh, maybe I'll be Prime Minister. I don't think, I want to work in the Treasury. You were very specific then. Yes. Very, very.

I grew up in Nottingham. We're born in Norwich. grew up in Nottingham. Did my A-levels 83 to 85 during the miners strike. We had the next door village to us was a UDM pit, Cockgrave, where the miners didn't go on strike. lots of movement of people on the motorways and checks and all of that

and the economic debate about Margaret Thatcher and the minds, unemployment for young people hugely high. So it is a big part of our experience, what people saw it in their lives and talked about. And I had a brilliant economics teacher called Peter Baker who was so good at talking about what we were learning and the world and policy. And I think I, at that point, you know, I wanted to be people. part of running the economy in a way which didn't mean you had to have massive unemployment and loads of suffering. And that was how I saw it. So it wasn't I want to get elected

or to be Prime Minister. And all through Oxford and Harvard, that's what I studied. And that was always my thinking. Princess Diana always used to say I had a sense that there was kind of a destiny for me. So, and she used a great phrase. She said, so I had to keep myself tidy. you know just in the sense of no late wild nights and boyfriends all that sort of stuff did you have a sense of that keeping yourself tidy as it were in terms of right i might be in a position of power one day i think the answer a little bit is yes um i've never ever taken an illegal drug and i think that's partly because that was how i was brought up And that's partly because it feels like a good choice.

But yeah, there was a bit of me which thought, I don't ever want to answer that question. And that's probably when I'm 1819. So does that make me sound a little bit driven and nerdy? Maybe. But I think that is the truth. I always thought there was, you know, I was going to do something. There was always a sort of sense of, but I never knew quite what it was.

and one of the things happens in life is you suddenly realise maybe maybe you've already done it without quite noticing so then you have to look back and think that was it there's always a hope in your life you're crescendoing but sometimes it didn't work that way one thing that's probably helpful certainly in your job

is to be charismatic and I think it's fair to say you are having met you was that always a currency of yours that you were you were good with people I think part of the challenge and kind of frustration of doing strictly, where you are very open and public, people saying, well, you've changed a lot. Or, you know, when you're a politician, you were a hard man and now you're so much more human.

And actually I think that people who knew me well would say that I didn't change. And that was always how I was. And when I was like, you know, cabinet minister, Michelle the Chancellor, you know, I always loved on visits doing messy play with little children because I was children's secretary or kind of getting involved in all sorts of ridiculous stunts and things in a sort of Dennis Healy kind of way. But I'm not sure people saw that very much. sometimes in politics you get trapped in a caricature and my caricature was you know

Gordon Brown hard man tough and so I would say that most people well look of course truth most people had no idea who I was anyway but to the extent they did I don't think they would have I don't think my reputation when I was in the cabinet was for being fun and charismatic and don't think I ever felt as though people people saw who I was. And that's, I think maybe lots of politicians feel like that and that's a very

frustrating thing. Well, sometimes it's only when people leave office that you get to see all the best qualities. Because sometimes their best qualities are who they are when they're not having to face the public all the time. Yes. What I don't know is how I've, I think that is true, but when you say that, that's like they change, and I'm able to be more themselves. But it might also be that there is such a thick prism of glass called being a politician that is very hard to see through it and so therefore people can't see who you really are and you're frustrated by that and when the prism is taken away and you are an ex-politician it's true there's less pressure and you can be more open but maybe also the person

you have always been is revealed because people couldn't see through to it before I see that and also that's dangerous for politics because it means that people think all these politicians are weird out for themselves, not like us, slightly kind of odd. And I think you want your politicians to be normal and relatable and understandable and fun, but we don't often make it possible for that to happen.

The environments you tend to be in, tend to be, in the same way, you wouldn't see the best of someone if they were being cross-examined in a courtroom. Because they'd come across maybe as defensive. Of course, that's right. But they'd have to because they're being interrogated. Of course, that's right.

And that's sort of the same. that if you were sort of spending your life going on Jonathan Ross's show or something, people would have seen, oh, he's great fun. I love him. They're not going to think that when you've got, Paxman is staring you down, are they? That is right. I think also, though, one of the big surprises for me of my post-politics life. I did a book on politics a few years back while I was on Strictly. I did Good Morning Britain now as a presenter. And when you're on those shows, you move from the very serious and sometimes they're very painful, very difficult to then humour and fun. And people allow you and come with you on these massive transitions in seconds, backwards and forwards.

I think when you're in politics, people fear that. They think, well, if I'm doing a serious job and I was then to sort of say something fun, that would be inappropriate. It wouldn't be understood. And so I think people tend to often make themselves very much more cautious. There was a famous time when Andy Burnham and I, we were both in the cabinet. And we went to do a launch of something to do with youth services. And there was this rope swing. And I said to Andy, those two of them, I said, let's get on.

So we jumped on. We were going back and forwards in front of about 10 cameras. And I suddenly realized getting on a rope swing on television is quite easy. But getting off, how do you get off? So we were mostly stranded on these things going back as a little. and forwards and him say, what do we do now? I don't know. Keep swinging. But those moments were very unusual.

Yeah, the sort of boris-zip wire moments. Yeah. And actually in life, they're much more usual. By the way, we are at the most fabulous point of the walk. Look at that. Look at that vista. Do you know that that big mound there, that is the old slag heap of the Prince of Wales colliery,

which is now being reclaimed as a sort of public park. But that is actually the mine. Wow, it is so staggeringly beautiful here, isn't it? I know that's a really cliched thing to come up from the south and say it's beautiful here, but it really is. And there's a little border terrier, hello! Raymond! Oh my god, the border terrier wants nothing to do with Raymond. The border terrier did a runner and Raymond's not got the legs for it.

Come on Raymond. Raymond, you've really embarrassed yourself. Hello, hello. Hi, hello. Good to see you. Oh my gosh, what's the dog's name? Milo. Milo.

Yeah. Milo is definitely a dog. Oh, yeah. Raymond is, you know, there's so much hair, it's not so clear. Ed Bulls? Are you insulting my dog, Edwalls? I'm not insulting. I'm just big factual.

Of course, he's lovely. He's 13. Oh, my love. He's in great nick. So. That is, that is getting on in dog years. Yeah. Oh, no.

No. Oh, don't be saying that. No, no, but I think, you know. Yeah. Oh, no. The averages. No, Maury. He just told me I was getting on as well, so it's fine. No, I did not.

It's the best one. I was just saying, and this is the best bit of it, isn't it? This point where it opens up like this. That's lovely to meet you. Nice to see you. See you later on, cheers. Bye-bye. Good to see you. Bye-bye, Milo. And I'm interested just how you got into politics because it was Peter Mandelson who actually approached you. Is that right when you were at the FT?

and suggested you come on work for Gordon Brown? He was part of the approaching kind of, it was Gordon himself and actually the editor of the FT at the time Richard Lambert who had been asked whether I could go and talk to Gordon and he said yes. Yeah. I had first met Gordon and talked to him about the economy for about a year really while I was at the FT

but I'd resisted giving up my job and going over full time And it was Peter who put a lot of effort into telling me, sort yourself out, make your choice, get on with it. The key moment was the lunch we had. Oh yes, you went to his flat and he gave you two? He did, he invited me for lunch. It was quite a stingy lunch, if I'm honest. It was really stringy lunch, but I don't think I realised that at the time. It was beautifully laid out with little napkins, and Peter was very kind of stylistic as well as cultured.

the cherry tomatoes were beautifully cut and the vinegrette was it wasn't poured, it was drizzled and the soup was very nice and I ate it thinking is that it? What's the main course? And then it never arrived. That was it couldn't believe it. There was a point

to that in a way, isn't there? It's like a power dynamic thing in a way? Oh definitely oh definitely I think the thing about food is so important in in politics because you know big events often happen over a food over a meal plot happen yeah over a meal um who invites who so you know the famous grenita dinner where supposedly Gordon Brown and Tony Blair decided that Gordon would pull out

for Tony in 1994 brunitas in Islington Tony booked the table and was there first so that Gordon would arrive to his meal like the emperor he was rather surprised that I turned up as well it was like Gordon didn't really didn't really want to be there at all and um and he'd never ever been to, you know, a Shishi Mediterranean restaurant in Upper Street was not really Gordon's idea of a night out. And we go in and we looked at the menu. Tony was looking at me like, what are you doing here? But you didn't say that. Because you were like the third wheel.

I was the absolutely the gooseberry at this thing. And the kind of food, there may have been gooseberry on the menu for the, in the starters. Gordon turns to me and says, what exactly is polenta? And then Tony ordered chipperones, which Gordon had never ever had. had before but I think Gordon thought they were small sausages. Gordon said, you've got a steak. I then said, I'm going to have to, I left. But no, no, but actually Gordon had said to me in advance when I was leaving, I can't

remember, he said, I'll see you at nine. I went back to meet the rest of Gordon's team. And at nine, we had a call on the mobile phone. It was Gordon who said, I'll be there in 15 minutes. Well done steak. So basically, Gordon had his. meal with Tony and then came down to have steak and chips because clearly it didn't do it for him. But it's so interesting because obviously that meal has had culturally it's become so significant.

There's even been a TV show made about it and you went in the room where it happened. I was. I was there fleetingly. I was before I left. But it also symbolised this transition into the very location, the fact that it was, you know. Islington's Tony Blair? Yeah. This newly. gentrified part of London with young sort of aspirational urban professionals. All those things. And then...

Whereas Gordon would have chosen a Chinese. I wish he would have had lemon chicken. Where did you find yourselves, yourself, Ed? When it came to, you know, Gordon and Tony, if you like, if you see them as representing those new and old labour in some ways, where did you see yourself? Were you more on... I know you've worked for Gordon, but spiritually, I suppose. Well, the thing was, in terms of modernising and changing the Labour Party and getting ready for government, it was absolutely a dual endeavour.

And Gordon was as New Labour as Tony in his politics. And Tony was the MP for Sedgefield, which is, you know, not too far up the road from here. That's right. So if you got up the A1, you'd get there about an hour. Women's Roads again, a hour and a half. He was much more of a Londoner than Gordon. and culturally and part of his appeal, even though he was a Scot like Gordon, Tony,

his appeal was to that sort of southern metropolitan swing voter. Well, I always say, and I hope you didn't take this wrong way to these leaders, but sometimes you've got to look pleasing. Yep, you've got to look a bit like you could be an area manager for M&S. Yep. You have to look like you might have chosen a Monday.

Gordon was always slightly more the... He looked more complicated. and poetic he was more heathcliff he was wandering around the moors get feeling tortured he was he was always slightly more the he wasn't like parish priest who could have lectured you from the pulpit but then you know and the thing about gordon was he was I mean he he only drank champagne really you never he never wanted a gin and tonic or a glass of white wine or red wine you just like champagne was his drink you go through into his flat in London very

near to westminster you'd hard to get in the door because when you went in the door there was this kind of one whole wall was boxes four high by six across of some cheap champagne he'd bought in a job lot and there it sat and that was so he was he was much more of a champagne socialist and tony blair as it were although that slightly turned things on its head and you met evette i did which is one of my favourite things that ever happened because i love you too and you met each other because you were working for gordon brown she was working for harriet harmon and she was working for harriet harmon I mean, it's so a rom-com waiting to happen. It is. And it was decided that we would share an office together. And I've never known, was this, was Harriet Harmon the matchmaker? I mean, we can absolutely rule out Gordon as having played any role of this

because he was totally oblivious. A vet's constituency is, I'm sorry to do this again. This motorway junction, the one to the right and one to the left. And then my constituency for 10 years was the next four. So all around the M-62, Normanton, North Wakefield, on one side, South Leeds Morley. I felt really sorry for you when you lost your constituency, actually Ed. I felt really sad because it was 2015.

I remember reading that you were in a Premier Inn when it happened on your own for seven hours watching the coverage and that made me feel a bit tearful. For me the sadness was we were lost, we were out and we weren't, you know, I wasn't going to be Chancellor and I'd obviously kind of worked towards that first. the previous 30 years and I probably knew in that moment that was it. I'm not sure that losing my...

I mean, it was obviously a big deal losing my seat. But for me, I kind of thought, well, if we're not going to win, I might as well lose. And I didn't sit there over the night thinking this is a disaster. Not until the next afternoon.

So we had... I was watching this unfolding, realizing we were going to lose, realising I might be going to lose actually thinking to myself if we're going to be in opposition for the next five years as would be i'm thinking i'm kind of happy to be out uh it'll be a vet's turn to go for the leadership she doesn't need me around but you were shadow chancellor at this point which is a big scalp as they say huge scalp then um you know i had to speak to my dad um we had to become wisdom the

funny thing was um we do the speech on the stage and do they tell you beforehand ed so you know you've lost beforehand. So at seven o'clock I found out that I'd lost but we had a recount and so I had an hour to think about it before you then find out almost instantaneously before going on stage that you've have lost. We got whisked away to my agents in Morley and there was about 20 of my kind of team there and they were all in a sort of you know head. You've done really good things you know you made a contribution and I said look honestly I'm still alive you know this is what are you doing and then my agent's wife, Jane, came in from the kitchen, having heard all this with 20 little glasses and a bottle of Harvey's Bristol cream, and she poured glasses of sherry at 9am, and

so they could all toast my demise. So I was, you know, it's a very unusual thing in politics. You almost, you experience your own death politically, you read the obituaries, you're actually at the funeral with the drinks, and everybody then moves on. But it was only, at the end of that day, there was so much media attention, we couldn't go home, we went to some friends of ours where we could escape outside of London. outside of the constituency, it was seeing my son and my daughters and realizing, I hadn't known this, my son had stayed up all night with his granddad to see me lose before he went to school and my daughter was doing actually her GCSE drama that day and it was so late the

result she left and then she came back half an hour later and said I've realized halfway to school if I've not seen what's happened I can't do my exam so she had to come back and I think real like for them this was like a big trauma and they were worried for me and that was the point where I was tear for just because you sort of you take on everybody else's emotion but I was thinking you know what next really hope you've enjoyed this episode of walking the dog thank you to hand-picked hotels for hosting us in their dog friendly hotel wood hall during our trip to yorkshire and if you want to listen to part two of this episode it will be out on Thursday so don't miss it