Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ed Miliband

Episode Date: June 25, 2019

This week Emily takes her dog Raymond out for a walk with former Labour leader Ed Miliband - they talk about growing up in a family of academics, being mistaken for Nick Clegg on the tube and what it felt like to lose the 2015 General Election. They also chat about his podcast with Geoff Lloyd, Reasons to be Cheerful.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Give them that treat, Ed. There you go. The treat was voted down. It didn't get a majority. Poor treat. Do you want to try that? Well, I don't think it went very well the first time. This is like Theresa May and her withdrawal agreement.

Let's try again. How many are we going to try? This week, I went for a walk with former Labour leader, an MP for Doncaster North, Ed Miliband. I'd met Ed recently when I guested on the podcast he does with Jeff Lloyd. and Ed's two sons were very taken with my dog Raymond, so I thought I'd take Ed out on a walk with him to sell him the joys of dog ownership. We met in North London's Parliament Hill, which is near to where we both live,

and it was a lovely morning. We talked about his childhood growing up in an academic family and the legacy of that. We chatted about losing the election and what effect that had on him personally, and he also told me about his reaction to being mistaken for Nick Clegg on the tube. Spoiler alert, they're swearing involved. I really warm to Ed. He's very laid back and bright and funny and just generous company.

But mainly I liked him because he seemed genuinely into Raymond. So he's got to be a nice guy. I really recommend his podcast, by the way, with Jeff Lloyd, which is called Reasons to Be Cheerful. And it's a brilliant listen. It's fascinating and really funny. You'll be hooked.

I promise. Remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes if you like this episode. I'll hand over to the man himself now. Here's Ed. Do you want to take Ray, Ray? Definitely. I mean, we can let him off the lead.

Raymond is my therapy dog for the morning. We can let him off the lead if you like. I'm like, sweet tea. Do you know that? He's not exactly going running off into the sunset, is he? As you don't have a dog, Ed, can I say I'm really impressed by how you cope with that lead? My lead management skills. Some people fear the lead and the harness, because Raymond has a harness.

What breed is he? So Raymond is a Shih Tzu. Yeah. We should say this isn't your first meeting with Raymond. It is not my first meeting. Because you came and did our podcast live at the South Bank. Yeah. And you brought Raymond.

And everybody loves Raymond. Shall I formally introduce you, Ed? Go on. I'm with, I'm sure you can gather by now, because he has a very distinctive voice. I'm with the very... You're saying I've adenoidal, is that what you're... Is that your thing?

Okay, we need to talk to your therapist about that. Yeah, exactly. I'm with the very marvellous Ed Miliband, and we're in a park local to him and me. Yes. In North London. Yeah, in Parliament Hill. And, you see, often I avoid saying the exact area,

but then I suspect, as someone in politics, you have to be quite transparent about where you live and your man. Yeah, I think people know this is my... area. Look, oh look at this little dog, Ed. What do you think of him? Hello, sweetheart. He's a pretty nice dog.

Hello. Hi. What kind of dog is that? It's Cavalien. Do you know what that is? Yeah. Oh Ed. Look at Raymond.

I'm trying to teach him about dogs. There are really crosses out there, you know, one of the crosses. What do you think of Emily's dog? Raymond. What, this one? Yeah. Oh, you pause too. Oh, you pause too long.

You pause too long. I don't know what is it? Well, I didn't know what yours was. Oh, I see. He's a Shih Tzu. Oh, he's a shih Tzu, yeah. He's a shih Tzu. Yeah.

There's a bit of bottom smelling going on. Oh, yes, that's a big feature. Bye-bye, come on, Ray. I wonder why they smell each other's bottoms. Well, look, Ed. Can you imagine that running towards you? This podcast, I'll love. I've asked you on my podcast today, partly because I really liked you, and I thought you were brilliant fun and just really interesting when I met you, but also because I'm trying, I met your sons, Dan and Sam, who were possibly the most charming children in my entire life. They were just lovely.

That's exactly the right thing to say to a parent. No, they were, they were really... Oh, Raymond, I nearly stepped on you, sorry. So you don't have a dog, you in your... We don't. I've never had a dog. Really? Nope.

And why is that? I don't know. I don't think my parents ever thought about getting a pet, really. And I'm not sure my aunt had a dog. My father's sister called Wesley. Yeah. Oh. You were you being quite protective of Raymond there?

Oh, is it a little bit frightened there? Well, you thought the dog might eat Raymond? Yes, I did. I think I'm a bit over protective and you've got to get the balance right, because I always say I don't want to be the like, I don't want to mess him up, like, so he turns into Anthony Perkins and psycho. Yeah, yeah. But on the other hand, I am protective over him because he's so small.

So he ever had been attacked by a dog? He hasn't been attacked by a dog, but then I think that's because this is why I can't have children, because I think I'd probably, I'd never allow them to do anything. Come on, Ray! I love the way he runs. I know. He's found a new family now. So, um...

I mean, it's like watching a sort of... It's like watching a rather large toupee, sort of running, running through Hampstead Heath with sort of legs, a toupee on legs. I mean, I mean that in the nicest way. I mean, none taking it. Obviously. Obviously, Mass is taken. I mean, he could be a toupee, couldn't he? Ed Miliband, will you stop calling my dog a toupee?

And other things I never thought I'd say. He's so sweet. So you were saying you didn't have animals growing up and your family was your dad Ralph? Yes. Such a brilliant name. My favourite name. Oh not his original name. His original name was Adolf.

A rather unfortunate name during the Second World War. Yes. His mother, but he was said... Ray, come here. Ray! He's not allowed to go in the war. water Ed? No, I think he might submerge in the water. There's just be a floating toupee. The floating toupee. Is that rude the floating toupee, the toupee? I honestly mean it in a very sort of

complimentary sense. Someone would say, has anyone lost their rug here? Yeah, well I suppose rug actually, yeah, that's the other way to think about it. So go on you were saying. Yeah, so he was named Adolf. But I don't know what possessed his He always said, I don't know what possessed my mother, think Adolf was a good name and it was her name. Anyway, then he arrived in Britain at the age of 16. But presumably he was, so he was born before... 24, 1924.

Someone else took a right, okay. So Hitler wasn't yet. That's a bit of a signal, isn't it, if you've chosen that name? I know. So he arrived in Britain at the age of 16 because he fled here with his father. They took one of the last boats out of Belgium. Right. The boat came to Britain.

I mean, they kind of, you know, without any sense really of what they were going to do. And then they had a landlady and the landlady said, well, you can't have you called Adolf? You're going to have to be called Ralph from now on. And that was how he became, and he said, oh, okay. Well, presumably not very good English. And that's how he became Ralph.

Really? Yeah. And so his parents always used to call him Dolph. Oh, do you know, I've only just realised Dolph Lundgren. Yes. As in the Rocky actor. I know you're not great on popular culture. Yeah, I'm not exactly.

But that occurs to me that he must have been called Adolf. Do you think? Well, I don't know. That's interesting. Because Dolph isn't really a name. So we found out his secret. Yeah, that is true. So there you go.

And your mum is called. My mum is called Marion. And she came from Poland. She was a refugee. She was a refugee from Poland. You know, lost her father in a concentration camp, I'm afraid. We only just really found out where he died actually. Through sort of research.

Yeah. And she's called Marion. Yeah. She also had a kind of assumed name of some kind during the Second World War. How do you call him, Ed? Because he's going too far ahead now. Raymond! That's good.

Raymond. Raymond. That was very sweet. It was like you were a schoolboy and your voice was breaking and you just... Ray! Hello, this is a nice dog. This is a very sweet dog. Do you like this dog head?

Yeah, I love. What's his name? Luna. Luna. What kind of dog is Luna? Oh, she's beautiful. A bit cuckaboo, a bit terrier, but all sorts. How long have you had Luna?

Where did you get? She's from a charity called Wild at Heart. Do you know the flower shop? Yes, I do. She's got a charity that rescues dogs from Europe. Nikki Tibbles, yeah. Do you want to throw away? I mean, I know you're attached to Raymond's poo,

but I mean, I think, you know, I think you've been holding it long enough, Emily. I think the time to dispose of the poo has arrived. I have smelt it a bit as well during our encounter. I haven't seen a bin. Presumably it's maturing. There we go. So yeah, so your background Ed, for some reason I get the sense of it being slightly similar to mine and mine was, I suppose North London, slightly bohemian artsy chaos really.

But I don't know whether yours was chaos. Mine wasn't really chaos. What was yours like? Serious. I think it's the one word description. I mean it wasn't sort of marks for breakfast. That's Carl, by the way. That's Carl, not Groucho. Yeah.

But it was definitely quite serious. I think because my parents were children of the Holocaust in some ways, it sort of made them, well, you know, life was, obviously life was to be lived, but it was to sort of, you know, you needed to sort of make a difference while you were around if you had the child. I think, I just think they must have thought to themselves, so many of their relatives died, you know, and all that. And I think it, I think it must leave, obviously,

it must leave it's a real mark. Yes. And a sort of sense of, you know, that you were lucky to survive and, yeah. So it was quite serious sort of work ethic and so on. And did you have, it was you and your brother, David, obviously, and we used to have a lot of these sort of dinner parties with people around the table who'd be like,

Michael Foot would come to us. Is that right? Yeah, so we'd have. Very similar then. Yeah, and we'd have sort of academics and... Wow. But we were very encouraged me and my sister to be, I guess, mini adults. Exactly the same.

I see that, isn't that? It's very rare to meet people like that. It's exactly the same. There was no concession for us being children. We were spoken to like adults. Did you have that then? Yes, and in a way I thought at the time it was very good. And I still think it had a lot of good points to it,

but I suspect it probably, I don't know, I think it probably gave one, gave me a sense early on of, I don't quite know how to put this, but it's sort of a sense of responsibility. That sounds quite good, or a sense, yeah. You know. Well, I know what you mean, I guess my take on it, I always felt a bit, I think you have to,

it's not even sort of growing up fast, but I, just to give me an example of the sort of thing my dad would say, I sense, something to him once I went to hug him and he was head was buried in the origin of consciousness in the book like Amaral Mind which is his like reading that's what my dad would do but I can remember him I said oh you're so ungesturing and I remember my father said the word you're searching for is undemonstrative wow but to me how old were you then what's been about six I guess what you said ungesturing at the age of six yeah

but I was searching for the right yeah well that was Ungestering is pretty good. But that was interesting. And he wasn't like a Victorian dad when he said it. He was almost being quite humorous about it. Was he undemonstrative? I always described. He tried so hard,

but he was from a generation sort of raised by nannies a bit. Right. Yeah, mine were more demonstrative actually. Were they? Yeah. And, you know, my dad was quite funny and God, it's a real dog heaven about your life.

So many of them. I think it gave, I think it, I think it's this responsibility thing. I think it gave me a, I something didn't have any kind of wild teenage years or anything, you know what I mean? Did you not? No, really, no. I don't want him joining that gang, Ed. It looks like you might get him with the wrong crowd. I think they're like the tea bird.

Yeah. I don't want him to be with the tea birds. Well, he's looking like he's sort of thinking what's going on here. No, Raymond. These are nice friends for him, Ed. Yeah, I think it's good to walk by on the other side sometimes, Raymond. Hello. You see that's too barky for me, Ed.

Yeah, slightly too boisterous. I couldn't cope with that. That's the Boris Johnson of dog. Yeah, it is. It's all noise and no substance. Yeah, it is all slightly too... It's to look at me, dog. Yeah, what's that?

So I think Raymond, I think Raymond's been quite sensible actually. Oh, he's charming. Yeah. He's been raised. He's been raised. Quite a sense of responsibility. Well, I think what it is, what, maybe what we're searching for is, because I had a similar thing where there was a lot of laughter. You know, it was an engaging.

It wasn't like some sort of hideous environment where we were, but I sort of feel we were, yeah, we were adulted young. Yes. That's how I felt. That's exactly. I think that's a very good way of putting it. Yeah. And it's like when I was 11 and I would say, you know, my father would have some friends around and I would, or my parents would have some friends around and I would sort of make some political remarks.

People would look at me as if to say, well, and occasionally there someone would say, well, I think you don't really understand because you're 11. Or my father would sort of then massively go into a fight to defend me. I said, well, don't say that. He's, you know, just because he's 11. Oh. So this is where you grew up your manner? No, actually, because my parents lived in Primrose Hill. Right. So it's sort of slightly, so it's more like Primrose Hill Regents Park.

So that was expensive, though. How did they do well for themselves? Not when they moved in. Yeah. I mean, it's so weird. When they moved in in the 1965, my mother's mother was quite upset. But she's like, why are you coming to this part of town? Yeah.

Because it was quite run down in those days. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's totally different than what it is now. Which way do you want to go? Oh, I'm following you. Oh, right, okay. We can go up the hill. Should we go up that way?

Okay, oh, he likes the hill. Ed's already told me he's not a morning person, which surprised me because I think anyone in politics, I imagine you to be, have a sort of, right, set the alarm at five, do read all the papers on the treadmill. I really, I just have never been, I sort of got more into being a morning person when I was leading was you, sort of have, to be. And I sort of think, I don't know whether you find this, but I think if you fight it,

if you sort of, once you're up and you're going, then it's okay, it just can be a bit of an effort. Yeah. I wonder if that's slightly to do with your background, though, because I think, well, my parents, you know, we would have these discussions that into the night, so my sister and I didn't really have bed times as such. Oh, really, that is interesting. You see, I think it was more Bohemian that's more bohemian than me. Yes, yeah. I didn't have no bedtimes. Wow. And you learn the violin and you were quite... Oh no, not really. I was terrible at the violin. I imagine... Suzuki method. In fact, in fact, my memory of that is, I mean, it was real... We lived in America when I was seven for a year, my father was teaching that. When I took up the violin with a Suzuki method, Ohio Gozai Emas. You used to have to sort of begin the lesson by saying that. It's something like that. It's something like. of Japanese greeting. That's the only thing I remember about the violin. And then after four years of the sort of,

I said to my mother, I really want to give this up, honestly, I'm just not enjoying the violin. She said, thank God, she said, oh thank God. And it was sort of both of us had been sort of, kind of humouring the other one, I think. I'd been some humoring her and she'd been humouring me. So we stopped tumouring each other and my great violin career was over. And you went to have a stop, have a stop. Secondary school. Were you, what sort of a school kid were you? Were you academic?

I mean, I'm imagining you and David were both straight A students. Nerdy. Yeah. Nerdy and square. Yeah. Yeah, and it was quite a tough school actually. Was it? Yeah, yeah, it was quite a tough school.

What do you mean tough? I think in the first or second year when I arrived the deputy head teacher there was attacked by kids who came who'd been who'd left the school and came in balaclavas and sort of attacked him yeah so that was tough yeah it was quite tough he's joined yet another far look ed he's got off with someone else I think the way he looks over Ed like oh don't you think that's quite sweet I thought the way he looked over well no I thought it was kind of like weighing up whether he would stay with me oh no I I think it was more he was like looking to you for approval. So where was he? Where did you make me feel so much better?

What was interesting that woman looked over and she said, oh my god, it's him. Yeah. It's him. But I liked it because it was like you were sort of Justin Bieber or something. Yeah, I often get compared to Justin Bieber. Do you get that reaction a lot? Well, I get a lot of people recognizing me.

Of course. And they tend to say it. moment things like what do you do these days I'm still at me maybe I shouldn't title my autobiography what do you do these days I'm still standing Elton John I'm still standing that's good I will survive the the then sometimes people are occasionally mistake me for somebody else so who did they think just you know I went to see Hamilton on my birthday Christmas Eve you know and probably the one person in the world that wasn't wild about Hamilton.

Frank Skinner hated it. He said, Frank Skinner said he preferred knocking the North, which is a production he saw. But I think it makes me into it a real ignoramus. You can't really not be a great fan of Hamilton. I think it's because I basically fundamentally don't love musicals. Do you not?

No, so I think, I obviously realized it was a musical in advance. But anyway, so we went to see it. But anyway, on the tube on the way back, I'm sitting there on the tube, and this guy turns and goes, Nick? Nick? I look at him. Nick Clegg, yeah. And I was like, no, not fucking Nick Clegg. Ah!

No, I said I was very polite. I said no, no Ed Miliband actually. He goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. People always say, which I think is true, that you're taller than they expect. Yes. And more handsome. Aw, he says the nicest things.

Do you say... People do say I'm taller than they expect. It's weird. They do. Well, I think it's television must shrink you. I think also, and we'll get onto this in a minute, but it's that idea of having to be slightly someone you're not as well to a degree. Do you think...

So after you left, you were at school and I'm getting this impression, you used the word geek and nerd a lot to describe yourself. I was very serious. Yeah. Too serious. Do you think so? I hope my children are sort of, I think I want to bring them up to be less serious. Yeah.

And all that sort of co-parenting thing is quite an interesting sort of challenges. I think people come from their own backgrounds. I think I would say Justine is sort of keener on making sure they, well, maybe she's more assiduous at making sure they do the reading and all that. And I think that's important, but. It's getting the balance, isn't it? Yeah, it's getting the balance. You ended up going to Oxford? Did you know that was going to...

No. Does that feel like a path that was... No. But David... Had David had gone. And I mean, you know, my father didn't go to Oxford. He went to the LSC. My mum went to the London School of Economics 2.

So, you know, it wasn't at all sort of ordained. But I went and visited David. David, it was five years above me in terms of... Oh, yeah. Academically. Yeah. Yeah. So went to visit him.

I thought, well, you know, let me apply see what happened. Yeah, and I had a really good time, but... I heard you say once, Yeah. That you didn't have a girlfriend throughout Oxford, which I thought was so adorable. Not really. I was sort of very, um, it was very, well I was, I was,

JCR president. So that's like president of the, you know, student union, not student union, because of your college. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I was quite serious. I think you can sort of tell, I feel a little bit, I had a fantastic time at Corpus Christi College where I was.

So I'm not sort of remorseful about it, but I'm sort of, I'm reflective about it. Did you do any of that student-y stuff? The Oxford Union. No. No, I was thinking more, um, I didn't do the Oxford Union. I know, let's take the cone, let's steal a cone, and take it back to the halls of residence. Because that's hilarious and no one's ever done that before. Not really. I once ran through some wheat fields and that was,

That was quite an experience. I remember one night I got drunk like a few times and very rarely. What else did I do? And what did you do? How did you? I can't even remember. I got some tequila and that got very drunk. I know you had like two.

Two yeah, one and a half tequila. Yeah, so then I... So it's kind of... You see, I get the sense when you talk like this, that it's like when I talk to medics, I suppose, he come from an academic family. Yeah. And it's like doctors, they tend to run in families.

So do, I always get the sense that was sort of preordained in a sense, you know, not that there was expectation on you, but just that... But not to be... Not to be a politician, there wasn't an expectation, really. Right, so the expectation was that you'd be an academic. Or maybe, maybe an academic, maybe not, but more, more. You know, my father had sort of been on the margins of the Labour Party, on and off. Yeah.

He'd been a member and then he wasn't, he sort of, now which way should we go? I always keep asking you, but. You know what, I think it might be nice to get some shade for Raymond, Ed. Okay. Yeah, let's go, let's have some change. He's getting a bit hot. He's all right normally, but I just, you know what, I carry. Look, we'll give him a little bit of water.

Hold up, that's his portable water. Here you go. Look. Well, you think he's getting a few beads of sweat. He's looking quite enthusiastic about the water. It's got to be safe. Yeah, he likes the water. There you go, Ray.

Have your water. I'm here with these women that they're talking now about a wedding and I'm quite interested in it. Really? Do you like overhearing people's conversation there? Definitely. Do you? Are you nosy?

Definitely. I do. Would you stay on a tube whilst you'll stop to hear the chat? No, I don't, not sure about... I'm not sure about that. Also, if you're a public figure and you do weird things like that,

people might think, you know, you're sort of weird. Imagine being a public figure and doing weird things, the very idea. Oh, look, Ed, he's just lied down. This is just him so happy. Is that sort of come on?

Do you want to describe what he's done, Ed? Well, he's sort of lying down and sort of, I mean he'd basically going for the flat toupee look. Oh look at that dog Ed, he's cute. What's he doing? He's just lying down. He's just had enough.

Is that what happens when he lies down? Yeah. Oh gosh, are we overdoing it for him? No, come on. I mean, I suppose he is quite small. Yeah, he is small. Come on, Ray. He's fine.

He's enjoying his life. He's a walking two pays no. He's taking pictures of him. He's so sweet. I've got to, I've got to take pictures. Oh, then he'll see he's quite, he's quite good of it. He's quite good on the old selfies, isn't he? Maybe more camera savvy than I was as a leader.

He does, no, and he, and he knows the camera, doesn't he? He likes a bacon sarnie. Does he? Ah, ha ha. Oh, that's become your thing. That what a cheap, give him that. Give him that treat, Ed. Here you go.

Oh, someone's shouting, George. He rejected it. He rejected. Roman, I take that personally. Ed, it's not a bill going through Parliament. rejected it. I mean it's a treat. It was voted down. The treat was voted down. It didn't get a majority. Poor treat. I've not expected. It's been quashed by the House of Lords. Do you want to try to... Well, I don't think it went very well the first time. This is like Theresa May and her withdrawal agreement. Let's let's try again. How many are we going to try? I might have to resign.

Right, I'm afraid, okay, twice. I think, Raymond, at least you're playing along. Was it three times? Three times, three times, yeah. And then I have to resign, like, after the next one. Raymond, say to sit, tend to sit. Sit, Raymond. Now, Ed, you've got the two-pay, it says no, right.

Okay, come on. Right, I'm just to resign, right. Oh, you get that one. That's good, I don't have to resign. Few. Oh that's, okay. No, he spat it out at the last minute. Did he?

Yeah. Where is it? Are you sure? Yeah. Is that the old one that he pre- Well, few, this is not personal. No, exactly. It's not because of you, come on, you're being...

Hang on, but the other two have disappeared. I know, but you know what, let other dogs take the med? No, there's one there. Okay. But was one, I think one has been eaten. But you know what, it's fine, because I'm actually doing all right financially, so I can afford to let those go. go. Well I'm not as more taking as a personal sort of you know does he like those treats

normally. Ed I really feel you you feel really sad that he hasn't eaten them because you feel it's something to do with you do you do you think there's something deeply psychological about this the quest for perfection I think one of the things is that I'm quite self-critical well we've got a lot to be self-critical about you are yeah and I think one of the reasons um why I'm because it's not that my parents were sort of you know if you don't get 110% you failed but I think well I think high standards can become sort of impossibly high standards but I see you have to be so careful don't you just yeah you just can sort of impose impossibly high expectations of accidentally I think that generation I don't know about your parents but I always like that observation about how when you have kids

you become the frame. And your kids, you become the frame and your kids become the picture. That's how it should work. You know, that you recede into the background. Whereas I suppose, what I would say is a lot of kids in the 70s, in the sort of background that I had. My parents stayed the picture, really, for me. Oh, look at this.

I love this dog. Is this a newfoundland? That's not my dog. Oh, is it? Oh, whose dog is this then? Is it San Bernard, no? I think he's a newfoundland, but I don't know. He's not rather nice.

He's very friendly. But he doesn't have an owner, no, I think the owner's there. Oh, there. Hello! Lovely dog! That dog's quite obedient, that's sitting down and getting a treat.

You're so rude. I like that you're, is this what you politicians do? You're spinning it into his bagel rather than yours. Oh, that's true. You see? What kind of dog is it? Bernese. Oh, Bernese mountain dog?

From France's a land, yeah. Oh, Switzerland. Such a sweet, nice dog. I play, how do you say in English? Hide and seek. Hide and seek, yeah. Oh, were you playing hiding a dog? Instead of calling him all the time.

Yes. He's a trainer, I told me, he has my son's dog. He said, hide some time. Hide, yeah. And he's going to look if he, because they don't like to be alone. They don't want to be alone. He's ever so cute. He is cute.

He's a good. He is cute. Seven months? Seven months? Hello? Hello. He's a big boy, isn't he? What's his name? Alby.

Oh. Hello Alby. Look at him and Ray Ed. Yeah, that is little and large, isn't it? Come on, nice to meet you Alby. We need to go home, Albi. Bye, Albi. See, what do you think about a bigger dog like that?

Oh, I think he's pretty sweet. But I think both of them are... sweet in different ways. I think out there. Very personalised. I bet Alby does very big poos. Don't you think, but they're sort of humongous poos. Well, I always think, well, I look at these big pots. How big are the poes, Alby? I like, hello Alby, should I give you a treat? I don't know. There's an etiquette thing about treats. Yeah, you shouldn't give them. Yeah, you can't give them. Um, right Albi, I think you need to go with your owner. You took over there. I like that. You know what? Well, I wanted to mention actually, when I first, Saw you.

Ed, he's really likes you. Right, okay, he's off. I remember when I first... Can I just say Ed is talking about the dog, not the owner? He wasn't potty shaming the Swiss man, and he was very slim. Don't you think he's a little bit high BMI?

He's got junk in the trunk. To be fair, he's a Burmese mountain dog. You think he's just a big unit? I think he's just a big unit. Yeah, okay, maybe. He's just well built. He's a big two tickets to the gun. yeah okay fine and look if you compare him with Ray well Ray's right certainly isn't

overweight it's like comparing Zola Budd with one of the world's strongest men so I was going to say when I first met you Ed I was at our in fact we're going to talk about him and but Jeff Lloyd who's our mutual friend who you do the reasons to be cheerful podcast with which is brilliant and I love it and he invited me to his wife Sarah's birthday yes and I walked in with two friends of mine and And the first person I saw was you. And I was with my friends and we said, oh, it's lovely. Oh, I can't hear you though.

There was one of those things where the music was loud. It was far too loud. But you, there was something really interesting because we were talking about how the music was loud. And very quietly, but very decisively, you said, oh, let me go and turn that down. And you walked over to the decks and you just got behind the decks, which was great. because I noticed people walking to the party seeing Ed Miliband DJing. And so they thought, and you just turned the volume. And I caused a massive power outage and all the lines went out and disaster struck.

You just turned it down and came over. And what fascinated me about that is that that's not, that separated you from everyone else, I think. I think that's what that. I think it's because I'd said to Jeff in advance, I really hope the music isn't going to be too loud. I mean, which does make me sound sort of relatively elderly. But we can all say that, but that's the difference I think between someone who... It's what Frank Skinner who I work with calls the difference between doing to the world and letting the world do to you. So in that act, I think that was what...

That's what I realised you were a politician because I thought, right, you got up and did something about it and you weren't frightened. It was such a small act, but we were all sitting around, passively. Well, that's interesting. Like it seemed, you talk about being geekish and you talk about, but you strike everyone and me as quite self-effacing and quite humble in some ways, but then that was quite a bold gesture, I think. That was a confident gesture. That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it like that. Maybe it's because I felt comfortable with Jeff and Sarah and I knew I wasn't going to offend them. I think I grew up, I mean, it's actually the opposite. this is slightly going to be the opposite to what we just said,

but my dad used to have quite strong political arguments with people. Yeah. And he sort of wouldn't suffer fools gladly. And I don't really like conflict very much. Do you not? For somebody in politics. Yeah. He picked the wrong job.

I know. I did pick the wrong job. Did you get embarrassed when he would do, when he would, I would as well. Yeah. But that's why I think you did the music. Because you could sense that we were saying what to two, loud, you felt, well, I'm the person that knows Jeff and Sarah well enough. I can go and they won't mind if I turn it down a bit.

So you were sort of problem solving. Maybe that's true. You didn't do it in an entitled Bullington way. You just, I think it was just... I need to talk about when you got into politics. Yes. As you said, I know you'd interned for Tony Benn. Is that right?

At the end of 16, yeah. Oh, wow. Was that an incredible experience? It was an incredible experience. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't really when internships really existed. I just went and did some work experience with him for six weeks. Yeah.

And he paid me 25 quid a week because he said that was a level you get on the YTS. And he was incredibly nice. And, you know, I was thinking I was just opening his post. So it must have been 1986. Right. I mean, he was genuinely, well, you know, egalitarian in the sense that he would treat you like an, you know, treat you like an equal and sort of yeah it was a sort of fantastic experience

well should we go back on ourselves there I'm not sure where we are now I think we can go I've got an absolutely terrible sense of direction I know we should go this way yeah I think that's what I was going to say should I carry you for a bit come on Ray

I mean that's a good you couldn't do that with the old whatever his name was the Burmese sheep dog Alby Alby yeah go on I think in a way I remember having the conversation with my dad when I must have been, he died when I was 24, so 22, 23. Yeah.

I said to him, look, you know, I just, I have thought about being, doing, going and being academic, but I think it's not really what motivates me. What motivates me is politics. And he said, look, I thought, I sort of know that. Yeah. I really remember quite vividly having the conversation with him. And it's sort of being all right, you know. And did he live?

Because I know your dad died when you were 24, yeah. 24. And that's quite young. Yeah, it is. And it's pretty sad. And also, he had a. heart attack when I was three I don't really obviously remember it yeah and he was quite serious heart attack and I think he felt he was living on borrowed time

which is why he could be quite irascible and you know what I mean if you course if you feel that that must have been so tough though yeah how did you find out did it did no it was it was a more a gradual decline he got he had a heart bypass in 1991 and normally high bypasses at least today I'm pretty straightforward and this wasn't straightforward at all, he was intensive care for four weeks. It really sort of, you know, it was really tricky. He was touch and go with it. He would make it. Yeah. And then he did, but he was, he was not quite back, he was never really quite back to where he had been.

Where he'd been. And then three, and then he sort of gradually got worse. Three and three years later, he sort of just gradually declined. And there was, so it's weeks when he was in hospital and getting worse. You know what it is? Sometimes you're, well, don't you tell you about, this but you get in a sort of vortex of you're in a hospital and it's like oh it's not that serious and then it's slightly more serious and then it's slightly more serious and then suddenly they're all like yeah you know no you can see oh it's the faces I know this is awful but I used to think when they were really nice to me I think oh god here we go right it was like they'd they'd sort of greet you if you'd go in in the morning and

they'd greet you like you were a member of the royal family opening a wing I'd sit and they're all lined up respectfully. I think, okay. But did you get the call then? Because the call is horrible. It wasn't so much that. You didn't get like... I remember my brother ring me up two days before he died and saying, yeah, that things aren't good. You need to come. Yeah. And you know he got MRSA and this and that and the other and you know, it was all one of those things where and and and I think I afterwards, I remember going to see the doctor trying to understand what happened because they kept saying all the way through. Yeah. No, it's alright, he's going to be alright, he's going to be alright, he's going to be alright, he's going to be alright, and then it was something he's not going to be alright.

Yeah. He must have been devastated though. Yeah, I was, I mean... You were justine at that point? No, I wasn't, no. I don't know how you kind of... I think there's some sense in which, when you're... At least for me when he died, I think I was sort of thinking I need to be there for my mum more than anything.

Yeah. So maybe, yeah, I don't know. Yes, I can see that. I think that's true because I did that when my sister died. Maybe that's got to do with our childhoods a bit. Do you know what I mean? That adulting thing, I felt I need to sort of rise to this a bit. Yeah, maybe there is an element of that.

Yeah. Maybe there is an element of that. Yeah. And there's a little bit of a pattern of that in my life, which is, like, I was desperate to get a first at university and I got myself into quite a lather about it. Did you? And I didn't get a first. And then I didn't get a first.

wasn't really, it was very strange. I sort of just then was like, okay, well, never mind. My dad was like, well, he kind of wondered, you know, I'd spent six months, sort of in mega, mega, mega, mega, mega angst. And then he thought, are you going to be devastating? And I was like, well, it's just one of those things, isn't it? And I sort of moved on. Yeah. Maybe there's some sense in which that was what was expected. Yes. Yeah. You sort of, once something happens, you just have to sort of cope. Um, oh.

God, I don't know, it's good that Raymond's not sort of... There's a bit of a stramash going on here, isn't they? Do you think they're related those two dogs? They look very similar. They look similar, don't they? But, yeah, he looks like, I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of that. No, you didn't you wouldn't want Raymond to be in the middle of that, would you? I think we need to head that way, Ed.

I'm admiring your decisive leadership here, Emily. No, no, no, I'm serious. You are. I'm serious, you are. Look where I've led us. You're laughing to sort of bush. This is what's good, I'm not in charge. So then, I wonder if, do you think after your dad died, because your rise up through the ranks of the Labour Party was pretty swift?

Yeah. Wouldn't you say? I mean, it was almost like within a five-year period. Yeah, I never thought I'd be an MP. I mean, I never thought, but I wasn't sort of thinking I've got to be an MP. I became an advisor, worked for Harold Harmon, worked for Gordon Brown. took some time off, went to Harvard, then came back. And I thought, well...

I love it in your time off, you went to Harvard. Well, I thought I can't... Yeah, rather than sort of, you know, taking drugs in Ibiza or something. It didn't go to Iron Apple with the Lats. Exactly. I've kept the Iron Apper period under wraps, actually. I imagine you were in Iron Aps.

Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, so you've raised through the Labour Party. It was just swift. It feels like you must have been sort of single, out as this talent and star of the future and I think these things are very what was it Michael Heseltine or somebody said time and chance there wasn't Michael Huston somebody said you know it's just very much sort of these things happen or don't have you know and it's just it's all the way the cards were talking during the Tory

leadership contest you were good yeah that's nice you'd say but I mean you know I don't know I think I think these things are very I think they're there's a lot of luck. So you weren't, you must have felt when you were working ultimately, you know, for Gordon Brown and you were right in the seat of power, did you feel that must have been quite sort of electric almost? You must have felt excited or did it just feel like a job, you know, did it? No, didn't feel like a job, but it definitely took over my life, you know, sort of, you know,

Jeff Lloyd always says to me, Gordon Brown ain't your 90s, you know, it's sort of like, You know, I don't know anything about popular culture in the 90s. I mean, I'm not sure I would have known about popular culture, even if Gordon Brown hadn't eaten my 90s. Because you know what Mebworth was? Is that a stately home? So cute. That was when Oasis played. Oh yes.

I've heard of them. Have you heard of Oasis? Yes, I have a... Do you know that Blur and Oasis is a rivalry? Yes, I did know that. Okay. I like it. It's like speaking to someone who was in a coma. Yes, exactly.

I don't believe that though. I think you play that after that geek thing a bit. I think you were listening to music and going out and... I don't know. I don't think you're as square as you pretend. Really? You found my secret. You know, Donkester is my constituency. Yeah, I don't...

Your son actually correct him to the Doncaster North. Yes. I don't I don't come from there I went you the C o the my predecessor unfortunately got very ill yes he stood down right the last minute it was a very open thing there were people from docks to go for it and I sort of went up there thinking I don't really know anyone here and the first conversation I had was with somebody who said to me well I don't know why you're rigging me mate I want a local person and then I would catch him on the phone an hour later we're still

talking and you know it really I really got the bug for being an MP. I wasn't really sure what I was going to think in going up there. And I really got the bug for being an MP. And actually when I lost in 2015, well, I basically, I didn't really think I want to give it all up of being an MP. I didn't think, well, now I want to just go off and do something else. I thought I need to sort of.

This is after the election. Yeah, I want to stick with it. Yeah. And I thought there's a couple of reasons. is I thought I think it's a kind of you can still contribute ideas even if you're not the leader yeah and secondly I thought really do care about the constituency I represent and I kind of felt they've given me a lot yeah by supporting me when I was leader and I can't just bugger off yes yeah yeah um but anyway losing the election that was bad too for bad things

not recommended for your listeners who are thinking of running a political policy party. Rory Stewart or Boris Johnson or anyone is listening. It's better to win than to lose. Yeah, but it, but... On the other hand, David Cameron won and, you know, it's gone down in history and not the best way, so, you know. But that took, you know, when I think about you getting up and turning the music down, to me...

Yes. I relate that oddly to your decision to stand. Oh, that's interesting. As leader, which is there's a quiet determination. That's very perceptive. I'm just going to get on and do this quietly. That's very perceptive. There's no fuss about it. You just went and did it.

Yeah, that's very perceptive. You should be in the, should do this professionally like a therapist. But you know, there was no noise and fury and I'm doing this big thing. You just got on and quietly did it. Yeah, I think that is sort of true. And I kind of thought, I think I, look, it was incredibly difficult to stand against my brother. Of course.

To fight a contest against my brother. But I felt I had something distinctive to contribute about my view about what, where the lone party needed to go. Do you think in a way that the press made too much of that? Because I think, well, you know, Venus and Serena Williams, they play against each other. Loads of footballers do that. I think different. You're in the same job. and you ended up standing in a similar?

I don't know. I think there was a bit of drama over that. I mean, honestly, I think people have such different reactions to it. I think sometimes it's to do with people's place as a sibling. Yeah, yeah. You know, there are other experiences, what they think about politics. You know, it's just such a very, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. I know. And I know you and David, you've sort of, you know, it's time, isn't it, it takes to sort of sort of sort of thought those things out. But that, did you feel, it was that thing of excitement in a sense and shot, were you shot when you won? I was, well actually, did you remember standing on thinking, what the hell? Here's the funny thing about it. I mean, I was just absolutely convinced I was going to win. I mean, more convinced than I had justification for as it turned out.

Yeah. That's fascinating, Ed. I would basically thought I was going to win. I didn't think I was. Yeah, and I didn't. But were the odds against you at the time? Well, the old thing when I began, I didn't necessarily think I would win when I began. But I think by the end I thought I was going to win now I had obviously had no way of knowing that because I won very narrowly So why do you think that is? I don't know really. I just maybe you kind of Self-believe yeah well maybe you sort of end up having to sort of own it and and

You know it's said is it David Beckham's taking a free kick against Greece you know I think compared myself David Beckham But do you mean they talk about footballers and so when certain footballers go up to take a penalty. Well, I think there's definitely a truth. There's no sense of, I'm going to, this isn't going to make it in. You have to get into the mindset. I mean, certainly this was true as leader. You have to get into the mindset where,

where just what Justin always says, you have your armor on or your shell. Oh, that's a good way. And then you sort of, I think we're going the right way, by the way. Well done. I think, I hope we are. You've got very good instinctive sense of direction, obviously. And, I mean, it's odd actually thinking back on it all. I'm not sure how I quite stood it, really.

Really? Yeah, kind of. Because it is incredibly hard, and it was incredibly hard for Justine. And, you know, we had two young children, and it was, I mean, it was really, you know, cameras outside the house, lots of abuse, lots of sort of, I don't mean abuse, but lots of sort of vilification in the media and elsewhere. It is abuse, actually. Well, abuse in a way.

There's personal comments. Yeah, yeah. It is abuse, I think. But it's... I'm quite reflected, by the way, on Rory Stewart because we don't know what's going to happen to him. But I think one of the things he's handling quite well is when people say, don't you look weird,

he's like, yes, I do. I'm across between whatever he said. And I think that's really smart. And in a way, I wish I'd done that a bit more. Well, I think when you were elected leader and when I felt during the election campaign, it was interesting because I was shocked. quite honestly at the way people spoke to you sometimes you know just what me media

people yeah just questions people asked and when people comment on someone's appearance I think it's so strange I don't I don't sort of get what that has and I got the sense that you're very everyone who meets you and this is the impression I've had of you and obviously from listening to your podcast with Jeff everyone who listens to that will realise that but you're very warm and self-facing and funny and You never got a chance to show you that properly. Well, that's in a way I should, I mean, I have to take my own responsibility.

Except when Jeff interviewed you. Yeah. And there are sort of those moments. But you know, I, look, obviously if you know now what you, if you knew them what you know now, you do it differently. But I think there was a sort of, I think I was also in a transition period between a sort of 1990s politics, which was incredibly controlled. control. And sort of new Labor. Yeah and it's sort of 2000. Look like you're the area manager at MNS. Exactly. And then a 2000 sort of 1920 politics which is much more loose. Look like Michael Foote's grandson. Yeah, he doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't sort of matter.

Yeah. Um, I remember watching you being interviewed actually by Jeremy Paxman. And I think he's great, but I do think he's quite old school. Oh, this is a new election campaign. Yeah. And I was on some thing he was chatting and he said are you tough enough in that very pugnacious way which interestingly I actually think viewers even in the last four years I think the culture's changed I think people would say we don't want to know about him being tough we want to know he's compassionate actually and that very old school you know you'll hear Pierce Morgan on question time talking about Trump saying he's great at deals he gets killer lawyers in there I think that's sort of quite 80s that I did have in my mind

this idea of that you need a different model for political leadership. Oh wait, what's this? I don't know, it's a treasure hunt. What are you doing? We're trying to find these control things, there these wooden things with like a nomad letter. Oh really? I'll have a look for them. We'll shout if we see one.

Yeah, we'll shout if we see one. There's no group tonight in the competition. Oh, okay. Tell us, don't know. Oh, we will. He'll be in the cabinet. I was just saying with the Jeremy Paxon an interview you did.

I looked at it and I have seen it quite recently. He says, are you tough enough? And you gave a very credible answer actually about how Barack Obama had been on the phone and they'd be talking about bombing Syria and you sort of stood alone and stood up to him. But there was a part of me thinking I wish you could have said

like when Rory Stewart was asked about his weaknesses. I think it wasn't the right climate that you could have been honest and said, well, I think there are more important qualities. Of course I'm tough. You have to be to work in politics. I think it's, I think it's, yes, I think that's a really good perceptive point, actually. I think I did sort of think at various moments. Yeah. You know, we should develop the idea of a different model of political leadership. Should we go right or left, Ed? I think probably left. Oh, I knew you were going to say that.

a different model of political leadership but I never I found it was quite hard to articulate and because basically people have this sort of Halcyon view in an odd way of Thatcher I don't mean everybody has a healthy view of her but there is a sort of sense in the zeitguise that you need that that established or Blare in our house my dad cried when she got in no no but you're what I mean a healthy in view no no I know it's an idea of what a leader is like what a leader is like yeah and in a way I think I think Trump is you know part of that but but but I wonder whether it's also

shaped by the sort of climate that yeah that that that that that that that that people are thinking well do we really want somebody who just sort of bangs the table and doesn't get anywhere but just looks tough it doesn't deliver and when you see the leader debate recently when I saw Rory Stewart I don't know he I he feels like a right-wing version of you well he's actually more centrist than far right is but but but but he's talking about leadership he's talking about leadership in a different way see I remember doing this thing about empathy because I

got really interested in empathy as the missing ingredient political leadership and then you know I think I was going through a bad time but I talked I talked to this guy Simon Baron Cohen who says you know rights about empathy and then you know you got written up as Ed Consult's a shrink type of thing you know so it doesn't sort of you know I don't know it's hard it's hard looking look you know that being a political leader, I think particularly on the left in this country, is operating in a political war zone. You know, it really is. You know, people often say to me on Twitter, oh, where was this Sassie Ed in 2015?

And I think to myself, well, I think you're right, you know, they're right in a way. But on the other hand, you know, if you say something, you know, particularly then, it's changing a bit now. But you know, I watched something which made me quite sad, which was you in some leadership debate on Sky, you know. A woman in the audience was asking about the referendum. And it was like, you were like Nostradamus, essentially. Oh, I haven't ever looked back at her? Well, I suggest you do, because a woman asks about the referendum in the audience and says, should we, you know, why should it be you decide?

Yeah. because you've made it clear that you don't think we should have one. And you said... You've certainly done your research, Emily. I'm impressed. Much more research than Jeff and I do. Anyway, I tell you, your father brought you up to do, you know... My father was called...

Do the work. Well, my father was called... I'm getting very passionate about politics as I get older, weirdly. This clip I saw, which I'm going to put on Twitter actually. Yeah, definitely. Because it really kind of broke my heart. because so I get off you essentially get like a revelation to me because it's like it's like this is like the sort of guy who goes to the coma I don't really kind of

well I don't remember any of this woman says I remember the worst bit this woman well I'm going to well of course we all remember the worst reviews but this woman says we should have a referendum and you say why should you get to decide we the people should decide yeah and you say well I don't I respect that opinion, but I don't agree with that. I'm obviously paraphrasing here. Yeah. But you essentially say, I believe you have spoken to people by choosing to elect me or the government to elect.

That is your... That's interesting. Which I thought was a great way of dealing with it. And you said, but you were entrusting me to make that decision on your behalf. I feel that having a referendum would be disruptive and chaotic essentially. essentially and you also say it would waste time and distract from more important issues. Well I do remember thinking that was basically what I thought. You said we should not have a referendum, it will end in disaster.

I was almost, I couldn't believe it. God. It's extraordinary. Nostradarmas mean. But does that make you feel hearing about that and remembering that that was very much your opinion? Nostromillibandis, yeah. Do you feel a sense of, oh, I was right or do you just feel frustration or I feel very frustrated

On your behalf. We go straight on. Yeah. What do I feel about it? I feel, I do feel incredibly frustrated. But I think my protection mechanism is not to think about it. Because I think I find it's a bit like sort of grief. I think it's to sort of, I think I sort of dealt with it.

I kind of felt really miserable for the first year or so, maybe 18 months. after I lost. Did you? But yeah, but then the way of sort of dealing with it is to not, but if I spent my time thinking to myself, yeah, if this, that, you know what I mean? It's true.

Then, I mean, yeah, I feel incredibly angry that the whole of politics has been like eaten by the Brexit, eaten and poisoned, if you can be eaten and poisoned at the same time, or poisoned and eaten by Brexit. So yes, I do feel that. Did you feel that year, afterwards though I think I would have just got been gone into depression or something did you yeah I don't really know what the sort of you know I don't

know quite whether it was clinic you know I'm not sure that I was just very sad yeah you know it's just sad and that's probably a 70s way of describing depression although you know maybe oddly enough it takes time to sink in as well yeah maybe the first few months weren't the worst oddly enough. I remember meeting this guy on the plane who's actually now one of my colleagues we were going to us went to Australian July August to get away from it or August actually to 2015 and I remember get on the plane and this guy saying to me uh who's a nice little friend of mine he said he's had to be on the same plane for some reason I can't

remember yeah he said to me oh you know it's absolutely shit for you at the moment isn't there. I remember thinking to myself, oh, I suppose it is really. You know how it's funny, it's sort of rather obvious. Yeah, yeah. But I suppose I kind of went into, the reason I mentioned the first and the, or not getting the first, and my dad dying all that, is I suppose there's some part of my defence mechanism, which was about, you just cope with these things. These things happen. Yeah. I'm much more likely to worry about them in advance than I am to, then the answer is, well, if it happens, you're just, you just cope with these things. You're just, you're you've just got to cope with it.

Yes, I see what you mean, yeah. You get on and you... But then, Alastair Campbell, he talks about his... He's talked about... He obviously had depression and he's had... But did you ever feel that? I don't... Like not being able to get out of bed?

No. No, I didn't really... You just felt low? Yeah, I just felt low. It was circumstantial. Yes. Depression, which is a... Not...

But it was a reaction to events. I just felt low and I'm happy. Yeah, of course you do. And I almost think as well, it's that thing of... I did think I've got to keep going. I didn't sort of think I can't face seeing people or I can't face... Yeah.

I was quite... I'm not just low mind trumpet here, but I felt quite resilient about it. Right. You know, I just carried on and found other things to do. But your skin is thicker than most mortal. It has to be.

But some of the stuff... You know, when I look at those political programs when they're chatting to you and I even saw David on something. recently and it's perfectly nice I see the interviewer but I thought leave me alone I just feel exhausted

oddly enough you know I find it this is why I said I kind of look back on it and think how did I make put up with it I find the sort of there's something about being out the front line that you kind of get to you think oh I'm not sure I really want to go back into it you know you know it's like oh

so you don't feel now as a back bencher, you don't feel I'm on the bench and someone else is wearing a number 10 shirt. I feel that a bit. Number 10 shirt. I feel it works both ways. I do feel that a bit. Do you? Yeah, I feel quite conflicted about it. So at some level I feel that and I feel I'm on the sort of periphery and at another level I feel a great sense of I'm glad I'm not in that. Do you? It's very it's quite paradoxical what I feel. Do you feel? So I do, you know, I just like wouldn't leap at the chance of like going back in and you know I feel quite anxious about that well Prime Minister's questions as well I mean you always famously said you

didn't like that it wasn't why would you oh it's just ghastly yeah I wanted to ask you about Jeff and Lloyd who's your great friend and our mutual friend my late and life friend I know and did you meet on that absolute radio interview yes yes during the election campaign And why did you guys decide to do the podcast together, which we should say is called Reasons to Be Cheerful? It's absolutely brilliant. It's very, I think it's...

Ideas to make the world a better place and there are lots of people. Well, I think it's good as well because I think you're all good at talking about politics in a relatable way. It's kind of accessible and it's... But it is... It feels like it's your version of a think tank essentially. Yes, that's a good way of putting it out, I think. So it was Jeff's idea. I mean, he deserves the credit.

credit for this. You know, he, I was thinking, oh, should I set up a think tank? Should I do this? Should I do that? You know, it's quite hard to know what to do after the election. It's also about 18, nearly two years actually. And I got an email. Were you getting offers by the way, but you're getting, um, when you go on, I'm a celebrity? The offers I've had, Emily. If only I could tell you, uh, you know, um, no, uh, yeah, I've got, I've had a lot of, I bet, did you get strictly come down to? There was a car, there's a car, driving a car program, learning to drive. like a sports car I don't know sort of type of probably rally car program there was a

I've had two different offers about like buffing up and then you sort of you reveal your buffed up sort of bod in front of a live studio audience I didn't know whether those programs ever been made or are being made strictly a couple of times I bet there were lots where they basically tried to crowbar your surname somehow into it so it'd be something to do with a band Dancing on ice. You know, they're trying. Yeah, dancing on ice. I mean, God, me dancing on ice, it would be like a sort of giraffe trying to sort of dance on ice. I can't believe they offered you that.

I mean, you're like, as if you're going to do dancing on. It should be sort of marks on ice or something. Yeah. So, yeah, so you were given these weird offers and then you thought, no, I'm going to do. Well, I think for most of them, I, I basically turned down them all. Yeah. Apart from the last leg, I mean, have I got news for you? I've sort of, I've sort of.

The Lance Leg was great. Well, I just did one thing and I just quite, they're quite nice and I did it and, you know, but I generally sort of not wanted to do that stuff. Not because it's a bad thing to do just because it wasn't sort of my thing. Yeah. Well, you're still an MP. You're still an MP. And you certainly can't go off and I just think you can go off for weeks on end and do strictly come dancing.

I've never been off at the jungle, but I was offered the jungle after show. That's how B-list I am. Jungle Aftershed. What's it? You'd be on the panel. I'm talking about people, about like... General Collins, his performance.

But it's so weird that idea, and it is the Trump thing, that people just mix in politics with... Do you mean it's like it's the same job? I think it's... I think it says something about politics, though, this, because it's like the one of the other things that people say when they meet me apart from art, you're tall than I'm. expect is where's you sometimes they say where's your bodyguards or where's your

security or I wouldn't expect to see you on the tube or or you're in standard class on the train I mean there's quite often there is that yeah but that's because politicians seem like a sort of remote bunch of people from the planet sort of you know yeah goodness knows where well there is a sort of I mean there is a sort of ministerial you know when you're in the cabinet that's all different isn't it but you're right so you were given all these offers and then Jeff Jeff said we look people are feeling really depressed about the There must be good ideas out there.

You'd be my sort of partner in taking people through them. Who are a real man crush on you? And I'm, well, no, I think he was very insightful. And I, am I, you know, I was quite sort of thinking, oh, was this going to be like? Then the general election of 2017 happened, so it sort of got delayed. And then we sort of launched it. And I said, well, let's just, let's just do a pilot and see how it goes.

Because, you know, I was thinking, William Haig said this thing to me after the election. He said, he said, there's got three people. He said there's got three pieces of advice. One is, um, oh God, what were they? Well, anyway, one piece of advice, I can't remember what they were, but the one most important thing was,

make sure the next thing you do is successful. Really? Well, I mean, in other words, don't do something which is a sort of great flop. He also said to me, you'll carry on doing, you'll carry on being the same person you are, and people will say, my, isn't he different? Really.

Yeah. And that's exactly what's happened. And that's exactly what's happened. And he said that to me, really early on. It's really interesting. Well, heavy is the head that wears the crown. And once you take the crown off, you know, we all know there's a certain, plus I would say my own impression of you is that you're quite authentic. And I personally think that damaged people probably, I think it's a sign of emotional damage in a way to say, right, I'm going to go onto a world stage and just

spill out everything about myself and not have any sort of armour protecting me. and my family and you decided to do what i think was an emotionally healthy thing which was there was a i think you necessarily have to have something that you hang up at the end of the day you know to keep things real because that's a public job um i tried not to do my memoirs or anything as well would you never do that i don't know maybe like in 20 years time but i just sort of think i just didn't and also a kind of self-justificatory account why you know you know why, you know, I was right about everything. I just sort of thought I'm gorned.

So, Jeff and your relationship is lovely. And it is, yeah, like I said, it's a romance. It feels like you have such a great rapport together. And your mates as well in my right, right, aren't you? But we became mates as a podcast, and actually sent me a nice picture this morning. With one sleeve rolled up and one sleeve not rolled up, which unconsciously I've done.

What is this sleeve thing that you do? He says, I'm doing the ed with a one sleeve rolled up and one sleeve not rolled up. Is he one of your best male friends now? Definitely. Do you ever, Edwin, and I want to say, actually, everyone should listen to it reasons to be cheerful because it's really open my eyes about lots of things, you know, and it's accessible, but it's funny as well. And I, you're sort of hilarious on it as well. I feel so comfortable there. It's interesting.

Yeah, you sound it. You sound really comfortable, but I think you're likable. I think your media persona is very, not a media persona, it's who you are, but free from those shackles, your soul can sing openly. To paraphrase, Earl Spencer. Come here, please. Raymond. All right, I really loved our walk. I know you've got, so what is your day today? No, I'm about to go into my office.

And there's the office in... Port Colour's House in Westminster. What an office. I mean, that's so posh, isn't it? Well, kind of. I was hoping for something posher. Do you know what? I think it's probably made you happy at her.

Possibly. That's like something an old friend of your mum says, but I think... No, Ed, I think... I think I'd prefer to win the election if it's all the same to you. Beryl. Okay, I think your kids will be less, there'll be less pressures on your kids. I think that's definitely true.

I think that's definitely true. And yeah, Justine and I never really, we'd sort of occasionally talk about what would it mean to move into Downing Street, but we were slightly in denial about it because it would have been, you know. So Justine, as... One of the, one of the, a teacher told Daniel when he was quite young, so he must have only been five or six, you know, that he would have to... No, it would have five, actually. they would have to move house did he? What did Daniels say? Was he a bit sure?

I don't know, I think you didn't quite know. I personally also think for Justine I loved it when I met your kids because they introduced, they said... She wouldn't have become a high court judge if I'd won the election. Well, do you know what they said, which I love? When I asked Dan and someone, I said, I asked about the parents and I said, have you got a dog?

And they said, no. And I said, oh, why not? And they said, well, my mother's a high court judge and my father's an MP for Doncaster North. so it's very difficult because we're very busy. And what I loved is that firstly it was so, such a brilliant answer, but also what I loved is that Justine came first. Yes, that's a good point.

That was important to me. That's a really interesting point. I hope you take that in the right way. No, no, no, no, no, it's good actually. And I'm not sure she would have if... I think it would have been very hard to become the High Court Judge if you're the wife of the Prime Minister, isn't it? I mean, that would have been...

I think she would have been wrestled into Bowden cardigans. They would have made her wear daily male friendly dresses. And I think she's an impressive, interesting woman in her own right. And I would have felt upset about that. Really, that's really fair enough. That's really... Ed, you always go, great point, really fair. Like, you're very...

You're always sort of... notice that when I chat to you. You're not contradictory. You encourage people when you talk to them. I think there's something about politics that can turn people into sort of... I quite know what the right word is, but sort of... Our souls? No, I think maybe that too, but I think it's more...

You get a sort of inflated sense of your own involves, I'm sure I have it too, but, you know, just... What would people... I think the ability to keep learning and keep listening and have some humility is quite difficult. And I think it's really important, actually. What do you most worry that people say about you when you leave a room? I asked Matt Ford that, who did this podcast. You know, Matt. Yeah.

I said, what do you worry people will say? Oh, the thing about Matt, he's too, and he said, much. What do you think, what do you worry when you leave a room that people might say, the thing about Ed? I think I worry about what people say about me when I leave the room, actually. Funnily enough, do I... That's why you were

leader, probably. Do I worry about what people say about me? Do you know, that's a fair enough answer? I think I worry, I think I do... I think the only thing I'd worry about is not what I would say about me, but I would worry about

whether I've said something that accidentally offends them. So, for example, I'll think, I'll say to Lynn, afterwards look I said this thing to Emily about her dog being like a two page do you think that's a bad thing oh I'll tell Lindsay's your yeah who worked with me in Parliament and my chief well you said to Jeff as well and I'll probably say to Jeff and she think that's

all right you know you will you check with Emily that I haven't offended her because you know so I think I'll I wouldn't tend to worry about what people say about me but I worry about you know was I nice enough to that person yeah that that's because I think I have in my mind a sort of some of the fractious elements of my childhood I think I've got to be the smoother over I don't think that's an entirely good characteristic to have by the way don't you I have that as well I relate to it no because I think it's sort of

well I think it's hard in an organisation to be the person that always wants to smooth things over yeah yeah well you absorb everyone else's feelings a lot of the time slightly yes and I've loved our child honestly I've loved it too Can I ask your question? Yeah. Do you think, how do you feel about dogs since you've had the walk with Raymond? Because I know your boys... Raymond is looking so sweet.

Raymond is looking like, please adopt another one like me. Do you think you and Justine and the boys would ever consider it? Maybe we should do some Raymond dog sitting as a trial. Yes. Ed, I loved it. Thank you. No, thank you. I mean, am I allowed to hug you?

Definitely. When you dogg sit, Raymond? Definitely. Well, you promise not to say he looks like a toothair again. I'm sorry. I've been to you. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.