Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ellie Kildunne (Part One)

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

This week Emily and Ray head to Yorkshire for a stroll with England rugby star, World Cup winner and Sports Personality of the Year runner up Ellie Kildunne, joined by her beautiful cocker spaniel cross, Otis.After spending a little time exploring the Yorkshire Dales, Emily meets Ellie at her parents' home before heading off for a walk and a chat about her remarkable journey from rugby-mad youngster to one of the biggest names in world sport.Ellie talks about growing up in Yorkshire, often being the only girl on the rugby pitch, and the challenges of balancing her studies with an increasingly demanding England career. She also opens up about her ADHD diagnosis and how she's learned to harness her focus, energy and determination both on and off the field.The conversation covers some of the defining moments of her career, including representing England on the biggest stage, being nominated for Sports Personality of the Year, and the surreal experience of becoming a Barbie doll.If you'd like to learn more about Ellie's story, her memoir Game Changer is out now and well worth a read.It's a funny, honest and inspiring walk with one of British sport's brightest stars. And while Ellie may be driven by elite-level ambition, Ray remains fully committed to a training regime consisting primarily of naps, treats and avoiding cardio.Ellie is an ambassador for Nulo - uk.nulo.comInstagram: Nulo UKFollow Emily:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyrebeccadeanX: https://twitter.com/divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich JarmanArtwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And whoever's in the goal by the 10th goal has to bend over and the ball gets kicked at their bum. And now I wanted to be that person. I'm not surprised. I'm never playing red ass. We loved it. I love it. This week on Walking the Dove, Ray and I headed up to Yorkshire to take a stroll with England Rugby Star and World Cup winner Ellie Kildun and her beautiful Cocker Spaniel Cross Otis. So before we met Ellie, Ray and I spent a bit of time exploring the Yorkshire Dales. I won't lie, some of the sheep looked a little confused by him. It's almost as if they were trying to work out which flock the Ewok belonged to.

But I have to say, we completely fell in love with Yorkshire. So if there's any farmers up that way looking to hire an unfeasibly small silent Shih Tzu as a sheep dog, don't hesitate to reach out. We met up with Ellie at her parents' house and then piled into her land rover and headed to a very picturesque spot for our walk to have a good old chat about everything. From her childhood growing up in Yorkshire where she demonstrated a natural gift for rugby from a very young age but constantly found herself being the only girl on the team and we also talked about the struggles she had academically when her rugby career really began to take off and she found herself in the surreal

position of having to juggle A levels with playing for England. Ellie also opened up to me about getting diagnosed with ADHD and how she's learned to channel some of the intensity and hyperfocus that comes with it into becoming the player she is today. And it turns out she is quite the player. She told me what it felt like to finally lift that World Cup, how overwhelmed she was to be nominated for sports personality of the year and what it felt like to be immortalised as a Barbie doll. I should also say that if you want to find out more about Ellie, she's written a really gripping and fascinating memoir called Game Changer, so I really recommend giving that a read. Ray and I really enjoyed our walk with Ellie.

She's incredibly easy to talk to and impressively honest. Anyone that can admit that they have 32,000 unread emails is frankly my kind of person. And by the way, I'm currently at 19,000 Ellie. But she's also a very inspiring person to spend time with. I'd like to say that some of her drive and determination rubbed off on Ray. I mean, I'd like to say that. But given that he spent the entire journey home sleeping on a silk pillow and demanding to be hand-fed cheese, I'm not holding out too much hope.

I really hope you enjoy our walk. Here's Ellie and Otis and Ray-Way. Come on Raymond. I'm going to warn you, Ellie. Roman is very slow. That's right. Yeah, but you're known for your speed. Not when I'm walking. I'm a stroller, not a strider. That's what I always say to people. Where is he? Come on.

He's got little legs. I know, but so have I, Ellie. so you're going to have your work cut out. Come on. Come on, Raymond. There he is. He's got a bit of speed on him now. So, Ellie, this is such a joy to be here.

Thank you so much. Thank you for making the travel. Because Raymond and I, because of this, I mean, we were thrilled to get to meet you because we're huge fans. But we've managed to also get in a little mini break to Yorkshire. Yeah, I know. It's nice.

I've fallen in love with it here. It is nice. It's nice when it's calm or weather like this. Yeah, you can get a little bit blustery at times, but people are just nice. The views are nice. It's like fresh air. And we're in sort of, what's the exact location we're in at the moment?

So we're at East Riddlesson Hall in Riddleston. This is Riddleston Hall. Yeah. Let's have a look and this is, oh, I'm seeing a bit of a National Trust logo and that always bodes well. This West Yorkshire Manor sat at the heart of a thrift. farming estate. So we're in Riddleston Hall and your family home is not too far from here. No, it's five minutes in the car. I used to come down here when I was a kid.

But yeah, I haven't been down in ages but it's really nice. And we've brought, there were three dogs, full disclosure. There were three dogs this morning when we went to pick Ellie up. There was a border terrier. What was the other dog Ellie? He's a Terrier Cross. Yeah. I'm not really sure what he's crossed with him from honest, but he's, um, I think there's,

there's talk that he's crossed with a whipit, but I'm not sure, but they're my, um, family dogs and then obviously we brought Otis, which is my little dog that I got. And this is Otis we have here, and Otis is a spaniel?

Yeah, he's a, a cochlear, so he's a King Charles Cross with a Cocker Spaniel. And he loves spurs, he's dragging me. Oh, well, What does he make of these birds? I don't know what he'd do to him, but he always goes after them.

That's as much as I do know. This is so beautiful. Now, Ellie, you know what we've got here? A National Trust Cafe, and I can't resist the National Trust Cafe. What do you fancy? I don't know if they'll do flat light. It's coffee either way, but I'll have exactly, I'll have what she's having. What, your dog is absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, he's a girl, I just said, oh boy. And why Otis? Well, the name, I just liked it. Is it Otis Reading? Everyone says that and I do like Otis Reading, I think it's a fantastic music. But I just liked the name, it just suited him. Yeah. I kind of went to my, as I think most girls do have like a baby's names,

like note section, I went to there and picked it out. Well, what does it say about me that mine's called Raymond? Yeah, I know. Where's Raymond from? Do you know, it's two weird things. I'm an Arsenal fan. Yeah. To having the year of my life.

Yeah. I was a big fan of a player called Roe Paola. Fan. He used to play sort of in the 90s. He was very typical old Arsenal. They used to jokingly call him the Romford Pelle. Okay. And so it's partly after Roe Paola.

That's the funny story. And then I think, I feel the older. I don't say this to everyone, but I feel like I can say it to you because I read your book. which I love, we're going to talk about that. And I feel you're also the kind of person that can handle stuff like this, like sad stuff as well. But it's my sister died, and her name is Rachel.

And we lived in Australia briefly, and we called, everyone called her Ray, and she hated it because she was like, oh, really? They call me Ray, you know, they're short, and they're like, oh, right? So we decided, I thought, what a lovely way for her daughters and just a memory of her. It's not weird, it would be weird calling him the same name as her. Yeah, yeah. But it's like a nod to her. Yeah, absolutely, that's beautiful.

I know. So this is, so Ray, I called him. And your dog, I think they're, how do you think they're getting on? I think they're all right. I mean, they're not fighting, so that's a win. It's the best you can know for, really. I know, whenever I come past dog, I think, oh, here we go, and then they're absolutely fine. Is Otis like other dogs? Yeah, he does. He actually got attacked a few years ago in London. There was a husky that just came out of knowing.

wearing has pinned him down and I thought were you there when this happened yeah well you shouldn't get into dog fights should you shouldn't but I tried to drag him away and the the dog just stuck onto her just the whole time oh yeah but I thought then that would cause him to what did you do just rush him to the vet but he was okay he took him to the vet he'd scratched his eyes a little bit and he had a few blood marks on his face but he's feeling very sorry for himself they're very gentle dogs as well these dogs so he was like crying crying I know it's honestly it sounded like a baby I've never heard anything quite like it but as soon as I picked him up

he was actually crying on my shoulder you feel so helpless as well don't you but he's all right thank you so much Will we just got our coffees where should we go walking Ellie we'll walk back down there to the field I'll get my coffee thanks so much fabulous Right, come on Ray. I don't want you making us late. He's going to slow us down, really. It's fine. It's like just a field, so we can just walk in loops and let them do what we're exactly. I like to carry him some of it. He's pretty old now anyway. How old is Otis? He's three or four years old. He's not too old. See, Ray's an old man. He's getting one for ten now.

Really? Yeah, he's an oldie. So we've met the two other dogs who, the border, the border, the border's And then the cross is Albert. So Albert's a rescue dog and we had Bertie from being a puppy. So, and I get the sense that you really grew up around a lot of animals, didn't you? Yeah, I'm like, yeah. We at some point we had two guinea pigs, a rabbit, a cat, a dog, hamster, all in the same household at the same time. and just growing up around it. And then obviously we've got loads of field

around us and there's children we used to play out all the time and see if we could go catch lambs and we'd do some crazy things. But yeah, I've always been around animals. I think they're great for well-being and, you know, they're right in every room that you walk into. If there's a dog there or something, you just end up smiling.

A lot of sports people. say that, oh, the career, it makes it too hard, you're always travelling. But I get the sense with you. It's interesting, that was a sort of non-negotiable, really, having a dog. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the logistics of things can sometimes be quite tricky, but having parents that love dogs as much as I do, they, I think they want to keep her, if I'm honest.

But, yeah, no, I've sort of, I met your mum just now for about 10 minutes. I've sort of fallen a bit in love with her. I don't know what to do, Ellie. I sort of need to move in. I don't tell her that. I don't know I got a very good energy about her. And sometimes when you meet someone's parents for a couple of minutes and you get that good a vibe,

you think, oh, okay, this is why she's turned out all right. Yeah, no, definitely. My mum's been, well, both my mum and my dad, very different people. Yeah. But they have supported me and loved me. unconditional. Nigel and Alison yeah Nigel and Alison yeah mine you mate Alison and they so and you're your brother Sam as well my brother Sam he's actually just coming back

from a rugby tournament in Amsterdam so who's also a rugby player in case anyone didn't know and we are going to get into the weirdest thing ever which is why Ellie and her brother both turned out to be pretty good at rugby and no one else in the family yeah Just random. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I generally think it's to do with our upbringing and how mum and dad just had this outdoors attitude of, we didn't really play on games or watch much TV. The door just was opened at the start of the day and then we came back in the evening.

So quite, almost quite a sort of 1970s. Like, do you know what I mean? Like in the 70s and 80s, that's very much how kids were raised. It wasn't this sort of, right, we're going to take you to your, in your, in the, sort of ranger over to the art class at two. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then you've got an after-school club.

It was literally just, yeah, parents just opened the door and said, see you when we see you. Yeah, that was pretty much it. Really? I actually remember one time, my mum, I was quite bored. I don't know who I was with, but it wasn't my brother. And she said that when she was younger, she did this thing where she had 10 pound and you'd see how far away you could get away from home and then get back.

with the money that you've got so whether that's jumping on buses or trains see how far away you could get i think we took our bikes with us and then cycled back but hang on your mom was saying this to you yeah so your mom was saying here children let's play a game yeah how far away from me can you get it shows how you can trust the area and we were smart kids you know there wasn't there's not that much danger about up here because it's just fields so you can't get actually that far you get bored before needing to come back Ellie, you're a sport's good at sports psychology. How do I get my dog to, what do I do with this?

Normally get a ball out. We can get a ball out. Ray, he doesn't want to walk, Will. Shall I carry you, darling? Come on then. Oh, you're ever so lazy. I'm going to have to stop getting a pram for him, Ellie. He's so lazy.

This is what normal dogs do, Ray. They have a little run, see? That's what doggies do. Come on, bring it back. Otis! Otis! He'll sit down and start just chewing it. Otis! Good boy. Why did you look for this kind of dog?

I'm not sure. Would you like the sort of cavaliers? Yeah, I mean, my neighbours had spring of spaniels, so I liked those, but he was just really cute. His sisters actually looked a little bit more like the cavalier than he did. But that's why I loved him because he was a little bit different. I'm sorry, we need to take a picture, Ellie. I've only just noticed what kind of toy we've got. Yeah, he loves rugby balls.

It's weird. When he comes back, if I just hold it on the floor, he makes plenty noises and everything. Otis, bring it back. Otis, come here, please. Look at Ray. Ray, oh look, he's coming to you. You are a treat? Yeah, he wants a treat.

What are these treats, please? The Nuo freeze dry is his favourite. Honestly, mum started feeding them like it was just part of his food, but I don't think you're actually meant to have that many of them. So he did gain a little bit of weight, but he's back down now because he was having treats for his main meals. Come here. Oates. Are you like an ambassador for it?

Nuloh, yeah. I'm an ambassador for them. And the reason being, look, nutrition is like huge for any athletes. But for me, I've really understood how important it is to fuel well for games or whatever it may be. So I needed to partner with someone that it made my life a little bit easier because I knew that he was protected and he was getting the right nutrition. Well, do you know what's weird about dog food is that it's almost, it's relatively recent that we've made the connection. It's like for years we understood when we eat crap, we feel like crap. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And now people have realised with dogs, it's almost like, oh, actually, you can't just feed them rubbish. Yeah. Previously dog food was like sort of fast food, basically, wasn't it? Whereas, well, so that's good. So do they send this new load? Do they send you loads of freebies then? Yeah, they send me a load of food out, so, you know. Just asking for a friend.

Yeah, Olby's favourite. It's like a massive bag. And it just keeps it talked up, especially for my parents with the three dogs. and obviously with me not been there, it helps out with them as well because I know that all the dogs are getting good food, especially with the other ones that are getting a bit older now. It helps. It helps them. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Let's follow. Follow Ellie. We're going this where, Ellie? I'll pick him up. We can go through this. Oh, Ellie, he's got you mark down as the treat woman now. He's not going to leave you alone. So, yeah, just to go back to your childhood a bit, it's with your mum and your dad and obviously you're growing up around this is your manner and you yeah it's really interesting just this sense of how sort of it's a proper outdoorsy

rural childhood isn't it or out on bikes and very sort of active yeah and and you and you were you I get the sense you were also quite an extrovert when you were growing up yeah I mean I think growing up

absolutely you know I was always I don't want to say in like the popular group so I don't know I was always around other extroverts so yeah I think I've always been confident

in who I am but I've found as I've got a little bit older that I think I'm an introverted extrovert. I think that's the right way around. Yeah, I get it. I love around other introverts. I'm probably...

It's a husky. Isn't that funny, Ellie? So Ellie was just telling us that... Isn't that interesting? The Otis had had a really bad experience with the husky, which had lunged at the Otis, sorry. And... growled at one. Yeah. And isn't that interesting? You never forget. No, I know, but every

other dog he's fine with. He never forgot them. I know. Sorry, Huskies. And do you know what? We don't want to profile you. We know, we're not saying, not all Huskies. Okay, Ellie? No, exactly that. Exactly that. But yeah, so I think I'm more extroverted around introverted people and when there's a group of extroverts. I actually go quite quiet. Yes, I know what you mean. It's strange, but over the past few years, I've really, you know, stopped worrying about people's opinions on me.

I think for quite a while I got it wrong without knowing that, trying to be liked by everybody or cater to everybody, whereas now the people that love me and my friends and my family in my circles just know me for me and, like, I have got my... works but that I think that's what makes me me and I'm yeah proud of the people around me for seeing that well that people pleasing often does come hand in hand with ADHD which I know you've been diagnosed with and I think partly why the people pleasing comes with it is because you're constantly making you you're constantly in the position where you feel on the

back foot making up for being late or was I too much or was I too extra do you know what I mean So it's like I better always make sure everyone likes me because I'm such a chaotic disaster most of the time. That was always my feeling. I think it is a bit of that. But I'm also, I am a big lover. Like I love my friends or do anything for them. Same for anybody that's close to me. And I almost wanted to take stress off of other people all the time.

So, you know, if we went into a room and I could feel like it was a little. little bit awkward. I'd be the first person saying let's do some karaoke and I'd go first and I hate doing it in front of people but I'd do it first so that other people felt more comfortable around each other because then the next person and say I'll do that as well so

yeah I think at times I probably got it wrong and people can see through that you can't keep up with it because you can't remember who you were like if you change the way that you are one person will like it and another person won't

whereas if you just you just yourself, the people that like you for you will, you know, always like you for you. Yes, you're right. So it's almost just being conscious of, and it's something women tend to do more, is take responsibility for the emotional temperature in the room. Yeah. Because, you know, you go into a room and think, oh, so-and-so's a bit funny. Are they okay? Maybe I'll cheer them up. Yeah. And it's only that you start to realize, it's not my responsibility. Yeah, no, it is. It's that a so, True. You know. It's a bit slippery on there, just careful.

Oh, I like it, though. So, yeah, so would you describe your childhood? It sounds pretty idyllic in some ways. Yeah, when I have children, I hope they have the childhood that I had. You know, everything that a child could ask for, I've never got really in trouble. I've been outside.

I know how to do loads of things. tends to be one of those people that people hate where I'm quite good at everything. That's so irritating. I know, it's irritating even saying that because I'm not actually good at everything, but I'm not terrible at anything. I think that's the best way to... Do you think that's to do with, if we flip that on its head a bit, is that to do with the fact that when you are faced with something new,

you think, oh, why can't I do that? Whereas a lot of people think, oh, I can't do that. Yeah, I think when I'm faced with something... something new I think I'm going to be the best at that like it's not I think I might be able to I will you know I went to the London Marathon earlier um if you were a few months ago now and the toxic trait in me thought I could do this easy I could do this like why would I not be able to do this and when even when the elites set off I thought imagine I just ran the London Marathon and won but obviously people train the whole lives for that

and I don't mean to offend anybody by saying that but I don't know I just think yeah I'd be able to do it no training I'd just I'll just run it now just rock up but I guess I've got that mindset for most for most things is that I want to be

the best and I think that's one of the reasons that I am the player that I am is that I want to be the best at it well I think it's that thing it's also relishing those opportunities that the rest of us might find frightening. I remember when I had Gary Lineker on this podcast and we're talking about the dreaded penalties

and he looked and I said but how do you do that? It makes me feel like the idea of it makes feel ill taking a penalty for England and then he went I can't think of anything more exciting in my life yeah and you're probably the same aren't you? Yeah I mean I always say it because people say to me I've been worried what would you what would you advice be you know is someone getting into rugby or what is it that you get scared for but I actually don't get nervous for games um not because i've got an ego or anything like that i don't get nervous because what's the worst that can happen and i love what i do i train very hard my team i trust in um so i've got nothing to fear i think people just fear failure and i'm not scared

of failing because failing makes you a better person it makes you a better player because you learn from it but then this is what this tells me is the reason possibly that you think like that is maybe often people who think like that you have to have experience of failure yeah to how you have to be exposed to failure and often that comes from having parents who didn't protect you from failure yeah would you say that was true in your case yeah 100% You know, not necessarily in sport with mum and dads, but they've always just wanted me to be happy

and they want me to fulfil my potential. So it's okay if you get something wrong, as long as you learn how to make sure that it doesn't go wrong again. And if it goes wrong again, you've tried to find another route. It's not quite worked, but we always find a way. I think that's something in the family that has always been paramount is that there's always another way. If it's something that you believe in and you believe in yourself,

then there's nothing that can stop you. Ellie, was it obvious? I mean, it was pretty obvious from when you were kind of pretty young, wasn't it, that you were talented. You had a talent for sport. When did it specifically become clear that rugby was your thing? Because you supported Liverpool and you were playing football, weren't you when you were younger as well?

So I played a lot of football, I played a lot of rugby, I ran at school, I was good at cross-country, I hated cross-country, but I was good at it. I played a little bit of tennis in the summer. And I was, you know, like I mentioned before, I wasn't terrible at any of them. And it started to go down the route of football or rugby for a little while. But then I went to this tournament, and I guess, sorry, to just go back a little bit, At the time, there was no, you know, real visibility like it is today on women's sports. It's like team sports. You had Jessica on this and what she did in the athletics world, you know, was huge.

And I remember writing about her in an English essay, but I never wrote about the England rugby team. Yeah. And this was sort of pre-the-Lionesses becoming who they now are, really. Yeah, 100%. So I never really had that. And then I went to a tournament with rugby and it was down south somewhere it was called Sainsbury School Games and suddenly everybody was really good

and I was like wow this is incredible and I'm playing with people that I've heard of through the system that are meant to be like going on to play for England and stuff and suddenly that inspired me that I wanted to do something like that the tournament wasn't just a rugby tournament wasn't just a rugby tournament

it was multi-sport so when you finished your game we'd run over and go watch the athletics or the table tennis and for me that was like a mini Olympics and I was suddenly thinking I want to go to the actual Olympics

and I want to do something like this and I ended up going to Hartbury College and it broke my parents' heart as a 16 year old girl saying that I'm moving four hours away but I went to Harpre College and soon after I was

brought into the England senior setup. And at that point, that's when my football stopped, so kind of had to. Yeah, because you had to. But I'm thinking, presumably, when you were younger then, let's just go back to when you're showing a talent for this. You know, I've seen those pictures in your autobiography, and it's you surrounded by team of boys. Yeah.

You're the only girl, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. And that's because it seems like they're just... that's all it was just boys that played it yeah it was and it's definitely changing getting better now and there's more girls getting involved but that was never a barrier for me I think everyone you never felt different or did you feel yes I felt different but I don't think it I don't think that was a bad thing you know I'm I'm a huge advocate for if you are different like run with it because people spend

their lives trying to do something unique but that's unusual early to have that that's a very You're absolutely right, of course. But to be able to see that with that clarity and maturity at 7 or 8 is quite unusual, isn't it? Well, yeah, I mean, I didn't know whether it was different. I was a girl or different because I was the only one scoring tries. So I didn't know which one it was. But yeah, I've always known that I'm slightly different. Even going through school, obviously, I knew I was very sporty and I was different to the other girls.

And, you know, I had different interests. I didn't play netball with the girls. I went and played rugby with the boys, which kind of set me apart from everyone. But that's what also became, like, me. Like, I was known for that, and it's not something that I felt, I felt I had to fit in. I've never really felt like I had to fit in anywhere

because I fit in because I am different. And I think that's it. There's not one size fits all in life. so why would I suddenly start trying to do it? But you were saying as well there were some people, it's funny how people make assumptions, isn't it? Like people would assume that you were gay? Yeah. Because you played rugby. You came up against that a bit, didn't you?

Same thing, like I didn't even know at the time that it was not okay. I just thought it was normal. Which, yes, it's very strange. I'm still friends with all those girls. Like, they didn't know. The girls at school? Yeah. So what would they say they'd say things like,

we don't want to share a bed with you? Yeah, I mean, we'd go to sleep ever night, to sleep on the floor. And they'd all be in, like, the beds. And I didn't even know what, like, being gay was, what it looked like. And I think as I've got older, I'm a very, like, I'm a very forgiving person. And all I think is there's lack of education because it wasn't as normalized. You know, in my world at rugby,

And I guess in sport in general, and where we're at, we're in 2026 now, it's a lot more normal for people to be in same-sex relationships. Well, I was going to say, because you're right, what it betrays is just, I suppose, that lack of a understanding about the fact that, you know, being interested in sport has nothing to do with your sexuality. And also, Ellie, the idea that just because, let's say you had been gay, that you'd have been. that you'd have been desperate to go out with every woman that had presented herself to you. You know, I think as you say, it's kind of naivety but also, you know, all the same. Challenging for you, I suppose.

Yeah, I mean, as a young girl, you know, you're going through high school, you're trying to impress everybody. You know, you're going through puberty, you're making new friends. So there's loads of challenges and people that want to fit in. But I had a couple of the boys that I played rugby with at my local club that went to the school. And I stuck with them.

And then because I was sporty, the sporty girls ended up wanting to be friends with me. So I don't really see it as something that's ever held me back. I've used it to my strength. And yeah, I'm probably grateful for things like that. happening because without knowing it's made me stronger as a person and you were at school you were you know you've talked about how you were slightly singled out at school as well because again very common with someone who goes on in later life to have an ADHD diagnosis you were seen as a bit distracting and yeah that's I mean

it's classic isn't it the school reports thing I am okay I've always been a high achiever whether it is sport or at school my mum's always been an advocate for working hard for your studies because you know you didn't it's not what you know you don't know at the time especially that I would have what I have today and rugby would give me the opportunities that I that I have so we were told you you need to get good results so mum had helped me out with revision I'm a brother as well and we ended up getting good results but yeah I was very distracting I'd talk all the time but then I'd be annoying because I could still get

the results and the people next to me couldn't yeah and then when I went to Harpry I guess it got a little bit worse you're a little bit older and this we should say is it it's a kind of a college that actually specialises in sports yeah yeah so yeah so I mean Rugby's kind of what it's known for. It's got huge equine side to it as well. And this is the one you went to at 16, which meant you moving away from Yorkshire.

Your mum was very upset, but knew you were so keen to sort of follow your rugby career. Yeah, exactly that. So as soon as I went there, I was kind of brought into the England, so pretty much straight away. So I'd miss a lot of school. and I guess the difference between GCSEs and A levels

is GCCC's you can almost picture the page and write down the answer whereas at A levels you have to apply that knowledge and you need that deeper understanding which I didn't have because I wasn't there and when I was there I was probably getting distracted but yeah I had teachers that probably didn't understand what I was trying to balance at the time

you know I hadn't got the diagnosis so I was just being a disruptive sport student to everyone else and yeah I mean one of the teachers we had a big falling out and she ended up saying that Was this the biology teacher? Yeah I wasn't, yeah she said you know I know all about the biology teacher You're disabled and for a young girl I think that it was so damaging and it really not So hang on we should say

In fabulous ADHD style which I respect we're leaping around here Which is very much my way But we should say at this point, you know, you're at this college, you've already been singled out to play for England. Yeah. And in fact, you've made your debut at this point, because were you 17 when you made your debut? And we all know that's you're right in the middle of A levels then. Biology was one of your A levels. You would think, though, and this is what shocked me about this, that a college that prides itself on, right, we,

help train some of the best sports, finest sports sports people of their generation. That's what we do. That's why you come here. Yeah. But then it seems that hang on you're playing for England. They should be delighted. Yeah and they were. But yet then on the other hand it's like, but you're falling behind with your studies. It's like, well of course you're bloody falling behind. I didn't really understand why you weren't given enough support. It's very dependent on the teacher. I had some teachers that were amazing, really amazing. And They really help me, but you know, everyone's different and everyone has different expectations.

Most of the high achievers in sport were doing BTAC, so they had a little bit more leeway with the studies. Do you think also there's an element of, with you, you know, you're sort of trying to, you know, you're a new secular, if you like, in this world. Do you know what I mean? Given that there were no female teams, you're hacking through the undergrowth trying to carve a path without realising that's what you're doing. Yeah. And so all these things, you know, I see that pattern of things that you'd go to school and they'd be told, oh, well, you have to play down a year because the boys are too big for you. Yeah. In the rugby team. And then you're told, oh, hang on, you're getting too good.

You're scoring too many tries. you can't play at all now. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I think someone once said that someone's got to walk the nettle path first and... Says it again, I love it.

Someone's got to walk the nettle path first. So the first person to walk through a nettle path is going to get stung. But it means that the people behind them can walk through without getting stung. And that really resonates. I only heard that not so long ago, but I loved it because...

And look, where are we now? Yeah, I know exactly. You've taken me into the nestles, Ellie. But that's it. I think I'm happy that I can be that person because, you know, like we've already spoken about, I'm okay with making mistakes. I'm okay with not getting everything right.

And, you know, at times I've needed that guidance and haven't ever expected it, but needed the guidance and not really known where to look. You've got great people. Emily Scarratt, it's a huge mentor for me in many, many ways. But the game has also changed from when she was my age

going through a similar thing. Because you've got social media, you've got all, you know, the game's got so much bigger. So I'm navigating a lot firsthand. Yeah. And I'm glad that I am,

if I'm honest. So I'm glad that I can be that person despite maybe the difficulties and struggles that come along with it. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess when you're at Hartbury this college, and you make, you know, what a joy when you start playing for England. Yeah. That's these phone calls like that you remember forever, presumably.

Yeah, when I got there and I'd done my under 20s trial for England and, you know, we've touched on it how much of a heartbreak it was from my parents. to let me go and I wanted him to know I was doing it because I wanted to play for England that was always the plan yeah I guess I think once I went to Saintsbury School Games that's that you know that was what I wanted to do definitely but yeah when when I got the phone call that said like Ellie you've not made the under 20s I just thought oh god I've got this all wrong I've got this so wrong because I'm now at Harprey and I've not made the under 20s team but then I soon got a call after from the senior coach to say Look, you're not in the under 20 because we actually want you in the senior team.

I'm sorry, but whoever made the decision to not tell you that all in one phone call? I know. I mean, playing with emotions, definitely. Who is this person? Simon Cowell? I mean, it's a similar thing. So I am, yeah, roll coaster of emotions that day, but I remember it so well. And, you know, one of the things I remember is they said, oh, we know you've played fullback before, which is my current position. I'd never played fullback before.

Really? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've played it a little bit. But I wasn't going to say I haven't played it on the call. And what were you prior to that then? Like a centre or a winger. Yeah, I thought you were a winger. So, yeah, I just chanced it and just said, yeah, I've done it. Okay, I made mistakes.

I didn't know much about the senior game at all, really. Yeah. You know, I didn't really know what fullbacks did. I remember my first appearance at Twickenham, I got a yellow card and I didn't even know what you did after a yellow card. I mean in rugby, we should say it's different because I'm a football fan. But in rugby there's a sin bin, isn't there? Yeah, so in rugby you get one yellow card and that means you go off for 10 minutes. To calm down essentially.

Yeah, pretty much. to, well, it's to penalise you in your team because then you're a player down. But only for 10 minutes? Only for 10 minutes. It's changed now where it can be changed into a red card depending on how cynical the offence was.

Right. But that wasn't the case. But I'd also grown up watching football. So when I got yellow carded, I kind of looked at the referee thinking, well, why are you still looking at me? Because there's still going to be a yellow card that I should be having before I go off.

And everyone was like, get off the pitch Ellie, it's not football so how would you it's almost like should we sit down nearly your career had progressed to the degree where

you still weren't 100% on the rules no yeah no not all it was yeah I think that it just shows like you get thrown into it and sometimes it's going to be thrown into

the deep end and you don't know what you're doing but you know it's worked out all right If me I then knew by making the mistake of not going off, I knew that next time I get your card, I'll go off straight away and save myself a bit of embarrassment. But don't you think some of that is to do with that idea of what's the worst that can happen? Yeah. If I, okay, I'll embarrass myself.

Yeah. Do you know, that's what holds so many people back in life, is the idea of looking foolish. Yeah, I read a quote. What was the quote, the quote, the quote, I'm going to quote Samurai do in a minute again. he knows I am. It's something like the emotion of embarrassment is just it's just an unknown emotion like that's all embarrassment means you don't know how you're going to feel and that's why you get embarrassed so be okay not knowing what you're going to feel like

because no one does. Yeah. It wasn't that wasn't the word to word but I remember reading it thinking that is so true like that why you get embarrassed about something is because you're going to do something you don't know how people are going to react. You don't know how And it's an external, it's an external emotion. A lot of emotions are internal, but embarrassment is for other people, because you dance silly in your bedroom because no one's looking,

and no one can think anything of you. But if you were dancing in, you know, a room for people that you don't know, you probably are going to feel embarrassed because you don't know how they're going to feel about it. And it's interesting, isn't it, how you think... I quote him all the time, but I had Sam Ryder, who I love,

they're singing on this, And he always said, cool is how people's dreams end up on the scrap heap, trying to be cool. And I love that. I always think of that, because it's so true if you think about it. It's like, I better not do that. It's a bit uncool. You know, when you were younger, if you'd have thought like that, oh, how uncool if it's just me and the guys. It's not very feminine.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Well, I think, I never had the idea of what feminine was. I guess, you know, I realise things as I'm talking, and this is realising something that. I didn't really grow up watching television or movies. I've never watched any of the rom-coms that you could say I've probably not watched it. And people are so surprised by it. But maybe because my attention span, I didn't really like watching movies.

But also it could have been because I was outside playing with the boys all the time. So I didn't have that. I didn't really have social media or anything. So I wasn't put in a world of what ideal is or in. know what's expected of others. I was only really inspired by those around me and those people around me were boys so I didn't really care. I didn't have any that you didn't watch rom-coms. I wonder what we can take from this which is I know what I'm taking from it is maybe if you want your daughters to really be who they want

to be and achieve what they want to achieve don't allow them to watch films called 27 dresses about a woman so desperate to get married. Yeah, well, it seems like that. She's exciting on bloody wedding dresses. Exactly. There's so much more to life and people love them and look at people can love whatever they want to love. But I, it was just never, it's never been something that has been part of my life.

And, you know, I grew up watching Britain's got talent and X factor. Not, not anything like that. So, yeah, I mean, it is very interesting. And whenever I speak about things, I start realising more to the reason that I am the way I am. Yeah, I don't know. It's very interesting. It's very interesting. Well, I think it sounds like you didn't have a childhood, certainly from what you've said about your parents as well.

You know, and having a brother sometimes can help with that, I think, that was particularly gendered. You know, that it sounds like your childhood, it wasn't like, you think, oh, she's the girl. So she must want to do this. We'll take her to ballet and we'll do this. ballet and tap. Did you? Yeah, I mean, I can't remember. I was so young, I don't even, I don't, I mean, I'm stopped so young that I can't remember.

If you were good at that, I'm ending it now. No, I don't really annoy me. I'm not going to like. I never did gymnastics. I'm so inflexible. I am so stiff, yeah. I think last one makes me fast, if and honest, but. But that was always your thing, your speed.

And so am I right in thinking, Ellie, what makes, I guess I, again, I can relate to this as a football fan, but I would call you someone, you have a good engine. So if you have a good engine and sell, what seems interesting about you is that you've got real stamina as well as speed, is that right? So that makes you pretty valuable asset.

Yeah, I mean. Because how both those things is really unusual. I mean, John Mitchell is called me... He's the England coach, you should say. England head coach, yeah. It's before told me I'm a freak of nature. I don't take that as a bad thing at all. I love being a freak of nature.

You know, when I'm running and I'm tired, I know the rest of the girls are going to be so knackered if I'm tired. But I can keep up with it and be fast. And yeah, it is probably from cops and robbers. We used to play it for hours and hours and hours. And you can be jogging about hiding. And if one of the boys are coming to get you, you have got to sprint for your life.

Because the rule that we had, so cops and robbers, we only played it with four of us. So you had two cops, two robbers. You need to say, right, you've got 30 seconds to run away. They'd run away. Can I just say, I don't interrupt, but I'm not surprised women should be great at this because we spend our life with 30 seconds to run away from a dodgy man. So, and the trampoline would be jail.

So if you got caught, you got taken to jail. And to get caught, you had to be held for three seconds, which probably helps my mother would be tackling ability as well. So you'd evade. And if you got taken to jail, the other. person that's not in jail had to go free by high-fiving you on the on the trampoline and you know you'd have the other cops there trying to get you whilst you there so everything ties into it and it has made me in a being being a child that did lots all the time you know my saturdays would be rugby league in the

morning football in the afternoon and then my sundays would be playing rugby union and any other moment I'd be playing cops and robbers. So I was always running. Wasn't there something about red arse? Red ass as well, yeah. Don't say it like it's normal. We'd love it. What the hell is red ass?

So it's, I had some volleys. I mean, there's a few rules around it that we made. You're not allowed to smash the ball, for example. But what do you do with red ass? You make someone's ass red. Yeah, so you basically there's 10 goals. But you just nodding like he's heard of red off. Yeah, there's 10.

Why didn't we play this in London? There's 10 goals that you've got to score. Or you can do it if there's more people, like lives that people have got. Right. And you've got to score 10 goals against a keeper. If the ball misses the net or the keeper catches it on the full, then you go in net. And whoever's in the goal, by the 10th goal,

has to bend over and the ball gets kicked at their bum. Oh. And now I wanted to be that person. I'm not surprised. I'm never playing red ass. We loved it. I love it. It's all little things like that, like hand-eye coordination.

I use that football playing ability in my rugby now. And I can tell when other girls have played football growing up as well. Really? Yeah, not just how they kick the ball, but the vision to see through balls and stuff. Yeah. You know, you can almost read where the space is going to be before it's even there.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I loved red ass. It was good fun. We won't take that out of context. Ellie's saying I loved Red Arts. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.