Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ellie Kildunne (Part Two)

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

In part two of Emily and Ray’s walk with Ellie Kildunne, the conversation turns to some of the biggest highs and toughest moments of her life and career.Ellie reflects on what it felt like to finally lift the Rugby World Cup, the surreal experience of being turned into a Barbie doll, and the challenges she faced during the Covid pandemic, when uncertainty around rugby and life beyond the sport took a significant toll.It's an honest and revealing conversation about resilience, identity and finding your way through difficult periods, even when the outside world sees only success.If you haven’t already, do catch up on part one. If you'd like to learn more about Ellie's story, her memoir Game Changer is out now and well worth a read. Ellie is an ambassador for Nulo - uk.nulo.comInstagram: Nulo UKFollow Emily:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyrebeccadeanX: https://twitter.com/divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich JarmanArtwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of Walking the Dog with the wonderful World Cup winning England rugby star Ellie Kildun and her dog Otis. Really hope you enjoy part two of our walk and do give us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Ellie and Otis and Ray Ray. But it's interesting because the Union League thing, you know, it's codes, isn't it? It's called. It's codes. And you chose Union. It's interesting to me because this was a lot. a revelation reading your book which I should say I loved by the way I should tell you again and because it was so interesting to me all this stuff that I was unaware of that actually you also have sevens and 15s and then if you want to play sevens you can enter the

Olympics because that's at the Olympics but if you're playing 15s which you delected to do that's what you were doing you then can't enter the Olympics unless you go back to seven yeah so you chose to do that didn't you so you could was this because we should go back to what happened so basically you've started playing for England you've done phenomenally well this is with the 15s with the 15s and you played in New Zealand yes it's actually that it started before then so when I was at Harpere played the year with the 15 side and at the time it wasn't professional yeah and then at the end of the year we got offered

professional contracts it was first time it was going for professional so when you say it wasn't professional I mean women weren't women rugby players weren't getting paid properly. Yeah, exactly. How are they getting by, working in bars? Everyone had usual jobs, and you'd get paid for playing. Once you'd play, there was a fee that you'd get. I can't even remember how much it was.

I can't remember how, honestly. It was probably a bit more than that, but I can't remember. At this point were the men, presumably, they're getting paid proper. Yeah, there's salary, yeah. Why women are not being paid? That's not. No idea.

I mean, we would say. Oh, well, we're not getting the attendances, but then... Well, at the time we weren't. We weren't getting the attendances. But then why are you not getting the attendances? Because you're not paying them properly and because you're not growing the sport. This is the argument because we're now professional in England, but there's plenty of other countries that are not.

And it does really rely on, you know, having the attendance. And it is a bit of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. You don't really know. But that's for other unions to work out and learn from the Red Roses. But essentially, I had been offered a 15's contract. which was a salary and fully paid or a sevens contract and I remember saying to the England coach at the time who had just you know been my coach that year I want to be the best player in the world and he said okay well you know you've got the World Cup and you've got that's 15 it's

a world car but then I remembered my Sainsbury school games and I thought no I want to do the Olympics because that's first because in my head I could do the Olympics and then go do the World Cup after so I signed the contract for the sevens and trained with them for two years to go to the Rio Tokyo Olympics. See I read your book, Ellie. To go to the Tokyo Olympics. So we'd done that. I was injured pretty much for the whole thing.

I was a very young player and I don't think my body could keep up with... Yeah, but exciting going to Olympic Village. Yeah, I mean, I didn't go to that Olympics. Oh no, you didn't go to that too much. So I, well we got in, I was injured the whole time. There was no like, oh, I'm injured now. And then we went to our first first... We went to our first GB camp, so we were coming together and the Tokyo Olympics was around the corner

and then we all got made redundant because of COVID. Of course, so this coincided with COVID. Yeah, so COVID hit and that's when we all lost our jobs. And were they sort of saying the sevens we can't afford to keep doing this basically? I don't really know. We didn't know when we were going to come back in and they, yeah, like every company, they had to make cuts because... And Tokyo Olympics, we should say, was postponed as well, obviously. Yeah, it was postponed as well.

So that was a tough, and I want to say, I want to talk a bit about COVID because you were really honest in your book about something that I feel, you know, for COVID, one thing that you struggled with during that time was you became slightly fixated on your diet, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. And again, I'm really impressed at how honest you were about that. that it became it started when did you feel it was starting to tip over into something that was just

oh i'm a sportswoman watching her diet into something a little bit different i think it was when i knew how many calories were in a slice of bread um you know it started off like said you know just i'm eating healthy to then knowing what's in a slice of bread as a 20 year old girl i shouldn't have to worry about that um and then it went on to only eating salads and I remember being on holiday and I had a burger and I got so upset about having a burger that I had to go on a 5K run after it

and then there was body checks I was checking my body at the start of the day and then at the end of the day and what do you mean body checks you were I'd take a picture at the start of the day and see with my arms out and see what I looked like and then at the end of the day to see if my tummy had got slimmer And to mention I was already slim.

So, you know, it wasn't like I had fat to lose. And then, yeah, it all kind of all came together. I was doing my 5K runs all the time. And then when we were back down, training with rugby, but still in COVID, because we were allowed to go back into the 15 sides. I remember, I once remember going to my friend's house and she said, oh, food will be ready in half an hour. and I said, okay, well, I'll be back in 20.

Literally went out of the house, did a 5K run. Wow. I didn't even warm up. I needed to earn that food. And then straight after, I went on another 5K run. And I just, I'd go, sometimes I'd go on 5Ks, and then I'd jump on the cross trainer for another half an hour. Once I got back, I was just trying to shed it all off of myself.

And I guess it's because when you lose that sense of routine, that sense of competition, and I think as athletes, there's always the next thing, always the thing that you're training for. You know, right now I'm in my annual leave as such on my off season, but I've got a tournament coming up in September. So I'll be preparing for that tournament. In any decision that I make now, even as a, you know,

a player that's in my off season, rest and recovery, there's always that in my mind. Now, I'm not going to go do a, I don't know, on a trampoline or something. Because I could hurt my leg. If I hurt my leg, I'm not going to play. Yeah, so I am, yeah, you're always making decisions, but it just got really unhealthy.

And then I guess I wanted to be that player that I could show people that, yeah, you can be skinny and play rugby. Don't know why, because muscles are so important. And I just wanted to prove people wrong that you didn't have to look a certain way. And when I came back to rugby, I didn't have any energy. I had nothing in me to give for my team. and I think that's what I overlooked like that it was for my team it's not necessary for myself

So did you notice once you've lost that way it's that difficult thing isn't it because I bet you know when people see you socially we've all been there you know when people are said you look oh you look great Yeah yeah well that's the thing

Do you know what I mean? I think this is this is something that I've learned from maybe another experience someone close to me passed away and she lost a lot of weight And she was always told God, you look amazing. She'd gone vegan as well, and you look amazing, you look amazing.

It turns out she had terminal cancer. It wasn't a healthy weight loss, but people associate being skinny with being healthy and being overweight with being unhealthy. But I just think you should always check in with the people around you and your friends. If there's any change, whether it's weight gain or weight loss, just to check in with them and make sure that they're okay. And don't comment on people.

And that's my biggest thing. people used to say to me, I'll eat a burger, but I remember I always just think you would never say that same thing but flipped to another person. You wouldn't say, I'll lay off the burgers because everyone would say, I'm a bit harsh. But because everyone thought it was like a way to help me, they'd say it and it didn't help. It made me think, well, you wait next time you see me. I wouldn't be even smaller because I'm not going to eat anything until you next see me. But I, you know, I had to learn that food is fuel. I soon after, you know, I soon after, got a stress fracture in my knee and I think it's because I didn't have any muscle on my body.

I wasn't getting selected for England because I wasn't confident in the contact area. Like when I was getting tackled, I'd lose the ball and I was scared to make tackles. And I felt, I felt small, like I felt weak. So then I, you know, made that decision to leave the sevens. After being made redundant, I decided to take a 15s contract and say no to the Tokyo Olympics. And that was one of the biggest decisions of my life. I probably caused a lot of stress as well. And I, yeah, I decided to put that aside.

And then I wasn't even getting selected. So I wasn't making it worthwhile. So, yeah, I had to go to work. Looking back as well, that for someone like you, you know, COVID was for all sorts of reasons. You know, it was an awful period for so many reasons. but I wonder if for sports people that's a special kind of tough and I'm talking exclusively about that feeling of a loss of control that we all had to a degree yeah but I think for a sports

person that's really hard yeah because that lack of control I wonder if the food you know just the timing interests me that it's almost like okay I've lost control this is making me panic this is something like in control. Yeah. No, I think it is. I think without knowing I am a bit of a control freak. I think everyone sees me as someone who goes where the wind takes me and I'm happy with change. You know, I do spontaneous things that, I'm that type B type person that I have no organisation in my life. But the reality is, again, the older I've got, I've started to realise that my life is around certain points of control that make all these other things feel okay. Right. If I know where I live, if I know

where I'm playing, if I know, you know, you know, I've got a gym routine that I need to do or a run that I need to go do. My whole day revolves around that. Yeah, it's those beats, isn't it? Yeah. And everything else can go, I can go off piece. I can do what I want around that, but I know at 2 o'clock I've got to do a run because I've got a GPS that's going to track my run. So I can't not do it. Um, or, or a meeting, you know, like, like today meeting you. I wake up, because I'm like, okay, I've got to do my hair in time and get ready because, you know, you're coming over at half 11. Little border. Hi, border. Slightly skinnier than nice.

Oh, it's so cute. What's the name? Sam. Hello, Sam. It's all right, Oates. I've got one that's an old border as well. They can get a bit, a bit barky. I mean, he's always been like, yeah. How old yours? Is that Oates?

Three, yeah. Oates, darling. It's all right. Otis. It's all right, my love. Do you know Otis is very sweet. Otis is just protecting us. Don't you think? Stop here. It's a, it's a little border. They're ever so sweet. I call them like RAF dogs. I think they look like the 1940s dogs. Do you know what I mean? Like a black and white film. They're really, yeah, they're old gents, aren't they? They're so sweet. Little border, you're lovely. Right Raymond. So, obviously, things did pick up, once COVID started to, you know, became possible for you to go back to work as it were. Yeah. And I want to fast forward to 2025. Of course I do because that was a big

year for you, wasn't it? It was when you won the World Cup and but prior to that, I mean, you'd got, you know, you'd had some close calls, hadn't you? So I want, I'm interested in what does before we get to that extraordinary triumph, what does failure teach you? I think it teaches me that whatever the feeling is or the emotion is, I never want to feel it again. I think that's my big thing. You know, when we lost the World Cup in New Zealand prior to that. 22, was it? Yeah, I think it was 22, played in 23. I always get mixed up. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

That feeling was horrible. Was it? Yeah, and I think it was horrible because not necessarily sad for myself, but I really thought after the Lioness's success with the first year rose, that this was our moment and we could inspire so many people, we could change rugby for ourselves, but also for generations to come. And that external pressure I definitely felt. Not that other people were putting it on me, but something that I really truly believe.

And when we lost, I just was in disbelief. I just couldn't believe it that we've lost and this is now, you know, we've missed the moment. And I promised myself I'm never going to feel this way again. You know, on the way back from New Zealand to England, which is a 36-hour flight, I had a little notebook that I wrote down every aspect of my life and then made a spider diagram from each thing, so let's say it was sleep. This is on the plane on the way back. I needed to start planning. I'm back to work now.

So let's say sleep was one of them. You know, things that benefit I'd put. Like mattress. So how can I get a better mattress? What company do I need to work with? Vitamins. What vitamins do I need? What research do I need?

Yeah, all these small things like nutrition. Do I need a nutritionist? Do I need to get some meal prepping? and what yeah, loads of different things and I was straight back to work because I didn't want to feel that way again. But that is fascinating because that is obviously a great thing to do

but I would argue that's not typical. I think most people would think oh shit I've just lost the World Cup and I thought we were going to win. So you might have a drink, you might wallow, you might or you might want to just distract yourself. I think that's the interesting thing is that you're not distracting yourself from the failure.

you're saying right let me throw myself right back into that moment of pain and how can I get better from this? Yeah. No, it's exactly that. I used it as fuel. You know, I already had a fire burning in my belly and it was something like petrol had been put onto it. And I wanted the next walk up to me now. I was like, I'm ready for it now. I don't want to have to wait however many years to go into the next one.

And yeah, when I came home, you know, I did party and we did celebrate because we had to celebrate coming second is still huge. still was a huge success. And then we had our Six Nations and I remember the first time going to Twickenham after, it was like 67,000 people showed up and I just could not believe it. I was like, what the hell?

This has never happened before. With women's rugby? With women's rugby. And do you think the lionesses were helpful to women's rugby in terms of... Do you think so? A huge inspiration for us

but also, you know, we were then like the next so they do well okay the tournament's finished where can we go now what can we watch oh the women's rugby's on as well and I think a lot of it's a male male dominated spot I put bunny ears up when I say

that because I think it once was a male dominated sport and I think now it's more even so but you know what Ellie everything was male dominated even doing what I do women didn't interview people do you know what I mean it's so funny when you look back isn't it when I first started working on radio

I remember which was even this was a recent is like 15, 17 years ago it was. And I can remember there were men that would actually say, I don't want to hear a woman on the radio. Yeah, I mean, it's still... Because to them, that's all they'd heard was men. And that's the thing, like, I have definitely seen the change in fan base.

You know, it used to be young girls and their moms that would come, and then now there's young boys that have got Kilden on the back of the shirt, and the dads are there. And there's young boys and young boys, and young gentlemen that are there that are asking me for my signature because they've got a sister, they've got a mum, they've got a friend,

I don't believe they've got a sister, I believe they want it for themselves. But they could also be. And they're just saying, oh, it's from my mum. Yeah, they could also be. And I think that's what, like, it's happening is it's slowly getting normalised for people to engage in female rugby,

whatever that may be, maybe as a player or as a spectator. And that's definitely the shift that I've seen. I've seen it on social media as well, you know, everyone's going to be a troll or have trolls happen to them at some point. And where it used to be a lot of trolls and not a lot of supporters, now it's a complete flip. And I've got women that are supporting me. I've got men that are supporting me. Someone that says something out of place, actually the men say it's not right for you to say that.

That's so great there, isn't it? Yeah, it's amazing. And it shows how far the game has come. and were respected as rugby players now, not just as female rugby players, which, yeah, is something that I'm very proud of. And then you went and won the world cut off. Yeah.

Which was incredible. It was pretty mad. Yeah, it was good. It was good. Honestly, I've not really found a way of explaining it. That will give it justice. But actually, it ties in. I said it the other night, I was at a ball, and I was asked a similar question.

Get you. How did it feel? How did it feel? feel to win the World Cup and I started trying to explain it. And I said, oh, you know what? Tell you what this emotion is. You know when you've got a dog? And I said this in front of the room, I said, you've got a dog and that is the cutest, most lovable thing. It is the best thing that has ever walked this planet. And you tell your friends about it and they can't wait to see this dog and then they see this dog and they're like,

really? Or you see their dog that they've championed and you're like, oh yeah, it's cute. But you know, you don't have that connection to it because it's not your ugly dog. How dare you, Ellie? I mean, I love her. I think he's the best thing that has walked his planet. But then to someone else, it's just so. You can't tell someone about it in that way. It's almost impossible because it's such,

the feeling is so unique to you. Yeah, and that's exactly what the World Cup win was like, which is very fitting, obviously, doing a podcast like this. Yeah, when I said that, people in the room got what I meant then. And everyone was then nodding the head. You know, I can use all the adjectives that I've got in. in my dictionary in my head.

Nothing can describe it. Nothing can. I think the only thing that I can say was once we won in the World Cup whistle, like the final whistle went for the World Cup, I had this outer body experience that I was so happy for the girls on the pitch with me that I almost forgot that I was on the pitch with them. Did you? Yeah.

And I guess that's the culture that we've built at the Red Roses is, you know, you do it for, you do it for yourself, but you do it. don't just do it for yourself, you do it's a younger version of yourself and the people on the pitch with you, the families, the supporters, it's much bigger than one person and yeah, when that whistle went, I was like crying with joy for my teammates and then it took a few minutes to realise actually, well, I'm part of this team, I'm not a supporter right now and, you know. Yeah, because you're an England fan as well. Yeah, yeah.

That's what I always think it must be really interesting, that you're, that's why it's so unique and impossible to explain, I think, that it must be for the lionesses, it must be for anyone who plays for their country, you know, it's that sense of got such a complex cocktail of emotions you must have felt because it's your family and then you're thinking of fans or all these fleeting moments that must go through your head like, oh, that man who said good luck today, he's going to be so happy that the man at customs or whatever. And I'm not saying, I can't believe after how much it has changed my life. Really?

I can't go a day without someone asking for a photo or... And how do you find that? I think on the whole, brilliant, and sometimes I've got to take myself out of my shoes to really appreciate it. At times difficult because you know you lack a lot of privacy. I know, I'm known David Beckham. I don't have Papp's following me about.

But, you know, there's quiet moments that you thought were going to be quiet. and then suddenly someone knows who you are. And I don't think my hair helps me. The girls say it to me, if we're going to night out, Ellie, put your hair up. You have got magnificent hair. But that's the thing. And I'm very grateful that, you know, I was in the petrol station a few weeks ago.

And a policeman tapped me on my shoulder. I thought, oh, God, is this the tax? I don't know what this could be. Look, I know I've got ADHD. I can explain. I will pay it. Wait, sorry, Ellie. It's okay.

And then, yeah, he just said, Harry, can I have a photo with you? And I was like, absolutely. The police wanted a photo. Yeah, and these things like that. That is so amazing that, you know, these people want to congratulate me and want to say how much they support me.

And I'm very grateful of that. Yeah, but the police, Ellie. Ellie, I need to take a picture of you and Ray because this is honestly the cutest thing. He's like a little cat. I need to, there are some extraordinary things that happened as a result of that World Cup win. And you got made into a Barbie.

Yeah, yeah, I always forget about that one. I think the thing for me with that, I remember my agent calling me up and saying, we've got Barbie that I've put in a request, and I thought, I don't look like Barbie. Like, why would they want me to be with Barbie? I don't dress like Barbie. And then it later came apparent that they actually wanted to make me into a Barbie.

And growing up, I never played with them, but I think that's probably it. I didn't look like Barbie. But maybe that's good as well. I know it was just a one-off thing. It wasn't like we're going to make this. But I think at least, you know, I suppose that was the tension with the film, wasn't it?

That as I'm from a much older generation than you, I struggled with that film at first. Yeah. So I thought, are you trying to have it both ways here? You're trying to sort of say this is feminism, but actually you're responsible for women of my generation, having really messed up attitudes about their body. Yeah.

Having said that, I now think this is good because we're moving forward. Well, yeah, to recognise it. And it's great, yeah, that they've got sports, women, and they're saying, okay, women come in all shapes and sizes and women, you know, the fact that they approached you. That's the thing for me. Makes me feel we're getting somewhere. Yeah, that was it for me is that, look, I didn't play with a Barbie growing up, but to have a brand like Barbie approach and say, we want to make an icon doll and you're one of them. Yeah. And, you know, there was four rugby players that were chosen,

and all of them looked slightly different, different size muscles. I did have the smallest biceps. Okay. But I did have the best hair, so it's fine. But they, yeah. I mean, you've always got the best. To have a brand like Barbie recognize that space in and, like, just dive into it. I think it shows to other brands.

you know, this opportunity there is with female athletes that we don't need to go down the route of having Guinness, for example, being a sponsor and Corsa probably not going to want the women to be ambassadors. There's now so many brands and, you know, even like Newlo, like seeing that I've got a dog and how we can tie our values together to make a great thing happen is what means a lot to me and I don't just sign with any brand. And we should say with Newloat, which is we should say this is the pet food brand that you're with. Yeah. And why I know from what I know about them. And Ray, we haven't tried them. We are going to try them really because of you because you've told me about them. Yeah, they're great.

And I like the idea it's approaching the pets diet from more of, I suppose more of a scientific perspective. Yeah. all that kind of stuff. I mean, you're not going to be getting much performance out of right. Yeah, no. But I do want him to live as long as possible. Yeah, and that's it. Your pet's become your best mates.

And, you know, they honestly, Otis, he just knows. He knows if I'm upset. He knows if I'm stressed. He knows if I'm happy. And he's been through some really dark times with him, but he's always been there. And I can't imagine my life without him in it. So, of course, I want to give him the best life he's got

and have the best food. And, you know, if I had the money, the time. I'd be feeding raw steak every single time but I don't have that time so it's really good for me to be with a brand that I know is giving him the supplements that he needs and you know

it's good quality food. Pro-Baltics as well what we're going to do I'm going to get because Ray likes freeze-dried. Yeah. So I think you can get freeze-dried. That's what that stuff is that I'm getting that well on the way back and we sort that out. Do you, are you a cryer? Yeah. Oh I love that

I cry. How often do you cry? Well, the past week quite a lot because it's been quite a stressful week. Has it? But tell you what I am, and I think this is one of the negatives that is happy, you know, we just touched on how life has changed after the work up and stuff, that I've learned that sometimes you've got to bottle that emotion for the person that you're speaking to. Interesting. And, you know, I've become, thank you.

I've become very good at masking the true emotion that I'm feeling, I guess, for, I don't know. I don't know the reason. But then I also think it's probably part of the ADHD that you go, everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then one day hits and it's like everything comes crashing down. But yeah, I'm a crier. You know, I see someone cry. I'll probably cry. I think it's healthy to be emotional.

Do you cry when in the middle of a game ever? Yeah, I get choked up. You've got to manage your emotions. When we do a national anthem in front of us, sold out to chicken for the first time, my throat was so close that I just had to let a tear come out, but then I've got to brush it off because I've got to make decisions.

I've now got to perform. I cry when I get tackled hard because it hurts, and then I get up and then I'm all right. I actually cry when I... I remember one time I was watching my brother play. It was like under 13s. And one of the boys scored a try to win the game in the dying seconds of the game. And I bawled my eyes out.

Just because I knew, I've got huge empathy for people, huge empathy. And I just knew how happy people would be feeling for him. You know, he would feel the sense of relief. And I could put myself in his shoes. And I cried about that as well. But yeah, I think, you know, I'm always going to be somebody that is so true to myself. as much as sometimes I know how to put on a front. You know, I'm not always as easygoing and things do hurt me.

I can't brush everything off. Have you got a temper? I can do. I can do, especially on the pitch. But I think people have found out that when I get wound up, I actually channel that into playing better. That's useful, isn't it? Yeah.

And I, you know. Have you learned to do that? I think without knowing, yeah, you know, it's not any, I've never been like a huge tempered person that goes like red and, you know, loses my head. But I know how to channel it to make sure that I make good tackles or do you have, because this often, and I don't know if it's true of you, I don't want to make any assumptions. But one thing that often goes hand in hand with ADHD is something called justice sensitivity where you have. a strong sense of justice so but that wasn't me that's so unfair whereas some people might say oh okay that wasn't me that's annoying they think it is my fault what often happens with ADHD is an absolute desperate need to show it's a

miscarriage of justice sensitivity so and you feel it for other people as well that you might think but it's so unfair someone's saying he did that when he didn't yeah i know i definitely have that um so how so i'm interested if you do have that how how does that work in professional sport because you must be you know listen I've been following football long enough to know that's part of being a fan it's part of being a player every time I mean obviously I think there's a miscarriage of justice every week against Arsenal I would say that but you know I think when you're a player and you know let's say Maradonna's hand of God we all know now

we've all seen it we didn't have the technology then yeah we didn't have the AR now we know are we were robbed yeah how do you find that on the pitch when you know there's been a miscarriage of justice against yourself? I can separate it. I think I have that in day-to-day life with people, with myself, me as a person, I think, because I've probably been misunderstood for a lot of my life, so I wouldn't want people to misunderstand other people. I wouldn't want them to feel that way.

But on the pitch, you trust the work that's been put in, and I'm very forgiving, you know. Do you have to be quite hard on things? Do you have to sort of make yourself a bit frightening? No, I think it annoys people more that I'm smiling. Do you smile at them? I smile at them. I smile at them. Yeah, because it's easier for me to wind someone up

because attacking them becomes easier when they want to smash me. If you're running at me 100 miles an hour, it's so easy for me to step you. If you're kind of a bit stepping off me, it's really hard for me to evade you because I don't know what you're doing. I need you to make a decision, so I can make a decision.

But does it happen when you become more high profile? So, you know, in your case, obviously the World Cup win, runner up in sports personality of the year, suddenly I got this sense of it was you were huge. You know, your profile was increasing and increasing and increasing. You're getting big campaigns and endorsements. And I watch, again, as an Arsenal fan, I think of someone like Bukaiy Osaka.

I was suddenly aware of seeing how that started to impact him a bit on the pitch that also you're a bit more of a target. Yeah, you are a target. Do you find that with you as well? Yeah, I am a target. Like the young, hot player. Yeah, and people want to tackle you. I don't have the space that I once had, but that's not maybe because of the way that I've

played. I'm the one that set up that pressure, but I challenge myself to find different ways into the game. It might not be on a counter-attack when someone's kicked me the ball and I've run the length of the field, it'll be through how can I be used as a decoy runner? And then the ball goes over the top of me and then I'm on the inside. So I find different ways of doing it and I think that's what will make me the best play I can be. Because if I pass the ball three times on the fourth one, I can run it. Or if I can kick the ball, people start sitting off and then I can run and do what I needed to do.

And I see rugby like a game of chess. If you think you've worked me out, you've only worked one version out. You haven't worked out the whole thing. But yeah, I mean, you do become a bit of a target. I think you become really hard on yourself and people watching become hard on you as well because if I don't score a try, apparently have had a bad match.

There's expectation. Yeah, but expectation for me is it's just, it's the narrative that I've written. But you don't expect something that I've not done before. It's only because I've shown you I can do before. Right, so when Harry Kane misses a penalty, the world's up in arms. Yeah.

Because you don't expect him to miss. Yeah, exactly. Whereas if he misses all of the ones and then he scores one, everyone's like, oh my, wow, look at that. But yeah, if you're very, very good at something, people expect you to be very good at something. And I have been known over the past few years for some of the tries that I've scored. But that doesn't mean that I've had a bad match.

Well, I've heard you compared to Maradonna. Not because you have curly hair. It was a Guardian journalist, I think. I'm like to interview and he was saying, and it's true. And I watched it because he said it reminded me of Maradonna. And I went back and I looked at that game because I remember it. And it was the handball game, the infamous handball game that we don't talk about. But there was a second goal he scored in that game, which Will we'll remember, we'll know of,

which is considered the greatest goal in footballing history. A lot of people say it was. It's the way he beats players. So you're thinking, he can't keep going. He beats one. he beats another, he swears round another. You'll never see anything like it. And this journalist compared you to him.

That's cool. In the World Cup, there was a particular... Crazy actually. You're better than Maradona's official, okay? You said it first. And a lot nicer and less messed up, I reckon. God bless his soul. I want to ask you, we need to let you go soon.

I feel very comfortable with you. Good. You've got a very... I know this sounds weird, but there's a French expression and it translates directly as comfortable in your skin. Do you understand that? Yeah, completely. You strike me as someone comfortable in your skin.

Yeah, I am. I feel like I can't be in anyone else's skin, so I've got to be comfortable in mine. Life's too short. I think that's what I've learned, that life is so short that I'm not trying to be anybody that I'm not because I'll never be that person. And, you know, I'll never be happy

because I'm always trying to. to be something else and I'm very sure of who I am as a person I don't have I never expect anything of it of anybody but you're quite honest are you yeah does it get you in trouble being honest yeah I'm too honest when have you pissed someone off with your honesty um oh I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not honest necessarily in that way like if someone let's say someone's put some an outfit to and I'm like, oh God, I'd say, oh yeah, what do you think of this early and they look terrible? And I'd be like, no, I love it, like you look great.

Can we just try a white top as well? Like I'd be, you know, because I hate it. If someone says that to me, then I'm like, oh God, but I'm very honest in, you know, the way that I, if I see something that's not right, I'll make sure that I say it. It doesn't matter who's in the room or what you've said. Like, if I don't think it's quite right, I need to give you some perspective. I think there's always more than one side of a story and I, you know, I just, I don't know, I just think it's really important to be kind to people and try and understand people for who they are. And, you know, if someone, I can see someone's not quite being themselves or they're trying to be someone else. I wouldn't judge you on that character that you've shown me that day because I know that's probably not you.

That's very nice of you. I will so judge you on that. You're much better person than me. I just hope people see me in the same way. I think that's what it is, is that... What do you mean if someone's having an off day or something? An off day or, you know, like if someone's showing off in front of people, and you think they're showing. Well, you sometimes see it's interesting because...

No, stop it now. I think sometimes people are... And I notice this. If I'm with someone who's pretty well known, I notice what can happen is that... And it comes, someone will be excited. Let's sound with you. Someone's so excited.

Oh my God. I've just seen Ellie Kildon. I have to go and say hello. So what they might do, I might be in the middle of talking to you. I might be telling you something really sad. Like I was telling you about my sister dying earlier. Let's take that as an example.

You were being very sweet and you held that information. It was a lovely moment where I felt I could confide in you about that. Someone might have come over at that point, not knowing what we were talking about, being so excited to see you. They might have almost physically pushed me out of the way to say, oh my God, Ellie, I want your picture. And I'm, that, I see that a lot.

And I think in those situations, I don't blame that person, because I try and think, but I'm also aware that you sometimes see people maybe getting over-excited or not showing the best of themselves. Do you know what I mean? Like, they might push your friends out of the way to get a picture. And that's happened, you know, it's happened with my family as well. And I always say to people at games,

Just give me five minutes. I'm just seeing my family. I'll come to you. And I think the more that we speak about our experiences, you know, they're experiencing it for the first time. They're getting to speak to me for the first time or see one of the red roses for the first time and they will be excited.

But I think it's important, let's say earlier when you were chatting to me. If someone came over to me, I'd just say, just give me one second. And then you'd probably say, oh no, it's fine. Yeah. But then I've shown you that, like, I am listening, I am engaged.

I'm not dismissing, and it's not that person's fault. Yeah. But it's, it just means navigating the world in a slightly different way, doesn't it? And that's it. That's what's become difficult. Yeah. Because I can be with my friends and someone comes up and it sometimes can be a little bit awkward. Have you had anyone crawling out the woodwork? Well, yeah.

Oh my God, yeah. Jesus, some people, I have not heard from you in 15 years and now you want to meet up for a coffee. and what am I going to talk to you about? It'll be very one way because you know everything that's happened with me. I have no... I thought you were in Australia. So, yeah, people call out the woodwork.

But I think, you know, I don't actually have time to see a million people. But I make sure that it's very important to me to stay connected to my family, to, you know, stay connected to my friends. And I use my drivers as my connection point. I call so many people. I'm going to be driving back down to Reading today,

and I'm probably going to call seven or eight people and just make sure that I have that catch up with them and we reconnect and I get to hear about them as well because I don't want to talk about myself all the time and I know people are proud of me and it's a completely different world to what they're in and they want to know what's going on. I speak about myself all the time

and just spent however long speaking about me so... Do you love talking about you? It's important for me to connect with people and I'm sure it will carry on that way it doesn't matter what I'm doing and how old are you now 26 oh my god really sick 26 for God's sake when are you gonna do something with your life get it together I know I know it's crazy I've had to mature so quickly and I think

that I've learned so much I think this is what's crazy about writing an autobiography and I've said constantly I don't want it to feel like an autobiography I want it to feel like a bit of a self-help book yeah I want to show people that book it might look on the outside like everything's fine and everything's gone fine but I want to show people it's okay to get things wrong and you just learn from them and you mention in the book about is it a quote your mum says which I love I've been thinking about it a lot since I read your book and it's about how never be lukewarm is no good I love lukewarm is no good where's that

from it's a rolled out quote is it rolled out yeah it's basically saying if you this isn't it's like be passionate about whatever you're doing passionate and you And like be better than Luke warm, be like, be hot, be boiling. And that's the way that, like, I see life, that you've just got to go in into things full throttle, see what happens, either works or it doesn't. Okay, what else? And if it doesn't work, you're going to something else.

And I think that's just the way to be. I never want to get to the end of my life, the end of my career, and think, oh, I wonder if I just tried this and I didn't worry about what someone would think or I wasn't worried about getting dropped. Imagine the player I could be, or the people I could have met, or the friendships that I could have made.

If I just was completely myself, I went in 100%, and that doesn't necessarily mean intensity all the time. I'm not an incredibly intense person. I'm intense in my rugby, but yeah, I never want to look back and think, oh, what if I just did that? So, yeah, it's going full throttle, 100%. Do you hear that, Ray?

Luke warm is no good. Hello, you're right. Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you. No, no, no, you're absolutely fine. I don't hollow, rugby, but we watched you on the deli. Oh, did you? Oh, thank you.

I appreciate that. Oh, no, no, it's too heavy. It's giving me neckache. Yeah, no, thank you for coming over. Enjoy you. No, you're absolutely fine, enjoy your day. Oh, that's so nice, Ellie, isn't it? Thank you, thank you.

Not sure yet. She won't help me. Exeter. Exeter, it's a bit far away, is it? Anyway, see you later. Have a nice day. Isn't that nice that people come over? Yeah, it is.

Do you sleep with the medal on the bed? That's what I'm on the outside table. No, my room at home is a little bit like a shrine. Is it? Not where I live day to day, it's not. but everything that I've won over the past few years, I give to mum and dad for my bedroom at home, so it has become a little bit of a museum.

Has it? Yeah. Oh, that's so nice. I would. I would have that everywhere, for God's sake. The medal, the woke-up medal is still in my room down in Reading. I haven't actually picked it up for a while. I think it's just, it's just weird.

It doesn't feel like that's what we did. Yeah. And I can't wait to try to do it again in the next World Cup as well. So is your training schedule? You don't really have an off day. Do you train every day? No, so training, it depends. With club, you train Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and play on a Saturday.

And then with England, you are in camp. So you train Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, off, Thursday, Friday. Right. So yeah, I mean, you're training for club, you're training the afternoons into the evenings because it's still semi-professional. Got it. Which is, I mean, it's fine. I don't mind it.

But, you know, with my schedules on the day is off, so at you, Wednesdays and Fridays, I'm often doing commercial appearances and whether it might be even, like, school visits and what have you. Yeah. Just, yeah, growing the game in a different way. Well, I have to say, Ellie, I've loved our chat. Have you enjoyed it? Yeah, I have, thank you. Yeah, I really have.

And did you like getting to meet Raymond? Yes, he's a funny little thing. He's a really funny little thing, isn't he? Tell you what he's like when he was walking around at home. He might not want to hear this. Go on. I'm getting used to the kill run, honestly. He's like a sweeping brush.

He is. I thought the floors are going to be spotless after he's walked around. Do you know, he will make your floor spotless. Well, I've loved it. Let's say goodbye. We're going to get in the car now, but for the purposes of the podcast, I'm going to say goodbye to you. Yes, thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Thank you, Raymond.

Raymond, do you love Ellie? No, thank you for chatting. We've loved it. And we love you too. We love you too, Otis. Come on. Otis and Raymond best friends. Yeah, they are.

Don't you think, Ellie? Go on. Goodbye. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.