Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Emma Barnett

Episode Date: September 17, 2019

Emily takes Ray out for a stroll with broadcaster and journalist Emma Barnett to Regents Park. They talk about Emma's family parrots growing up, what it feels like to grill Theresa May and the difficult issues she faced trying to get pregnant. She also reveals why she's so keen for women to talk more openly about periods, something she discusses in her book, Period, It's About Bloody Time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That border tariff is so ugly and yours is actually beautiful. So I'm really happy that there's glamour on this walk. All people are listening in Border Terriers. My book is still a really great week. This week on Walking the Dog, I took Ray out to meet radio host, journalist and newsnight presenter, Emma Barnett. Full disclosure alert, I've admired Emma from afar for a long time, mainly because she's an incisive, forensic and rigorous interviewer, but also a tiny bit because she's got massive.

massively strong hair game. There's just one problem with the fabulous Emma. She doesn't like dogs. I mean, really doesn't like them. Did I bring her over to the dog side? Well, you'll just have to find out by listening to our war, which took place in Reach as part recently. I actually think you'll adore Emma. She's bright and thoughtful. She's also a real laugh. And we chatted to a lot about her new book called Periods. It's About Bloody Time, which I found kind of life-changing and really important. And I think you should buy it for a woman or man that you love. In fact, just buy it for anyone. It's brilliant. I'll get it for my dog even. I'm off now to leave you to listen to this. I hope you enjoy it. Here's Emma.

Okay, coming right now. Let me turn this off. You see, this is the thing with Emma Barnett. Always on that phone. Off now? Are you always on the phone? Have we started? Well, I'm not very professional, Emma. I'm not like you. I don't so answer the question, minister. Is it there?

go to the park yes there's an entrance here I don't know if it's one of those private squares I feel like I feel like on a dog walk we need a park not just a square not a sort of private enclave oh you're a better dog owner than me I am I'm in that really awkward position where you know that I don't love dogs I know and I'm now trying to do that really British thing of overcompensating to seem like I've not said that publicly but I what I actually to clarify mean is I I don't really like terrible dog owners. Okay.

Because I wouldn't... I wouldn't let my baby come and lick your face without your permission or touch your food. Yeah. But really annoying bad dog people who think you should just love their dog in your space without permission. That's really what I'm talking about. I think it's also... You see, this is the thing about Emma Barnett. I haven't even started on...

We're already in the throes of a really interesting day. And I haven't even introduced her. I'm with the very wonderful Emma Barnett, journalist, broadcaster, author. I know. Because I'm going to talk to you about this, but I've just read your book called Period. It's About Bloody Time?

Yeah, that's the Strut. And it kept me off all night, as did my period. So we're going to be talking about that. But I am welcome to Walking the Dog, by the way. Thank you very much. Hi, Raymond. That was your name, right? Yeah.

Okay. You're trying, but I'm not. Raymond's got a very good barnet. With my name and my hair being what it is, thick and furry. I think Raymond's hair is a bit like, do you remember in Dynasty? You're probably too young for this. No, no. It's called Jeff Colby.

I know exactly what you're talking about. He looks like the hero. He's got like that sort of. But also in Star Wars. Well, he's... He looks like an Ewok. Yeah. And that's who George Lucas based them on.

Was he... Gosh, today I'm learning an awful lot. So, yeah, you were talking about dogs that... When people voice their dogs upon you. Yeah, that's the problem. And I would agree with that, which I think is manners, because I think you have to operate under the assumption that no one likes dogs.

and then you'll be alright as a dog owner. I think the better entrance... Actually, no, we can do this. We can do this. Yeah, to the park. Do you know what? Even though I knew this was the better entrance, I was immediately going to just do what you said.

Really? I'm sorry about that. No, don't apologise, but I've realised immediately you're the girl at school, but I would have thought, I'm just going to... I like her. She knows what she's doing. Yeah, but I also would have corrupted you if you were good, so don't worry about it.

Oh, I wasn't. We still would have done well, but just about kind of thing. Were you, so I want to know about you growing up. Did you have dogs? You grew up in Manchester. No dogs. We had a parakeet. That's exotic.

We had things you could keep in cages because my mother also doesn't like pets. He's not a dog person. Slash, anything that's wandering around, sniffing its own ass, licking its own ass, making a smell, molting and interfering with curtains or other things you have to keep clean. Yes. But you, you know, you tolerate men and that's fine. I don't think of men like that. Not the ones I live with.

And I live with two boys now, a little one. Oh, yeah. And a big one. So tell me, so you had, you didn't have dogs or cats or anything like that. And did you ever think, you had the parakeet, though? That's fascinating. Yeah, I'm an only child, so I probably should have wanted some kind of pet, but no, I was fine. The parakeet was distinctly 80s looking with the hairdo.

It was named Michelle after my mom, which she wasn't. best pleased about because they had the same hairdo. And before that, before that we had the very inevitably named Birdie Barnett and Lady Barnett, who were two buddry cars. And then when they died, we had Birdie Barnett too and Lady Barnett too. So then the parakeet came and lasted quite a long time. So you were more of an Avery than a Kennel's family. Yeah, that's never been said to me before, but yes.

And what are we passing a group of school children? We are. Hello. Ray plays very well with that. Oh my gosh, that girl was wearing a jumper that said, I'm a cat, but I thought it said. I thought she said, I'm just a. Oh, don't worry. I thought she said, I'm a twat.

What does it say? I'm a cat. Never mind. Maybe you should get her on your podcast. She's better suited to this. Look, no dogs except by dogs. No, that's not true. Oh, off the lead, it must mean.

Hang on, Emma, this is strange. This is my kind of park. But it's not no dogs in this park. Do you know what I think it is? What? This part of it has got art. Oh. It's got some kind of freeze.

Art fair. Or you could probably walk through and then get to the other park. Shall we go through? I can carry a while we walk through. But this is my kind of park. No dogs. I'm going to check. And look, it says no ball games.

There are two men clearly. Oh no, they're sweeping. Okay. They're gardeners. I call them sweeping. It's interesting that only child thing, isn't it? Because people talk about it a lot. Did you know, people not refer to it when you, you know, say,

oh, are you an only child? Did you ever feel other because of that? There's a moment, I think when you say to somebody, they say, oh, you know, if you've got a sister, if you've lost brother, and he'd say, no, no, just me. And they go, oh, you're all right? You're all right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm great, thanks.

Like, I can't mourn for what I didn't have, you know. there's a real worry that you are okay and I was okay I mean I do think there are downsides definitely yeah what do you think those are I've highlighted them to mainly be or alienated them isolated them to be over the years one obviously if your your parents are unwell in any way or my mom for instance has Crohn's disease and doesn't feel great it's just you to shoulder that especially obviously when they get older I also think I'm much more of a fan of one-to-one conversations. I'm not as good in a group as some people

because I'm used to living in a quiet house, a relatively quiet house. There's not lots of mayhem when you're growing up as an only child. You eat with the adults from an early age. So that's a bonus, I think. You actually are a bit more mature, perhaps, than into adult conversation a bit earlier. But I don't do very well at that sort of taming.

where everyone's shouting over each other and no one's really listening properly. And I think that's why I love radio and ultimately podcast because it's that one-to-one connection. Yeah. And it goes into people's ears and you know that they're really listening

because it's very focused and personal. So it's definitely a downside that I remember when I got to university I was so overwhelmed. I mean, I was an outgoing person but I was suddenly living on this corridor with 12 people and everyone's screaming at each. other in halls and I was like,

hang on. Isn't that fascinating? You know, and then I lived in an eight and it was never quiet, obviously. So that's definitely a downside. I think that's really interesting actually. I'd never thought of that. And I suppose someone once said to me

who was an only child that they found conflict resolution with friends and things a bit harder because they hadn't had that experience of, they hadn't been forced to do that on a daily basis. to sort of argue and fall out passionately and swear and scream at each other.

And then say, I mean, not with adults, it's a different dynamic with adults, but a contemporary, another child, to be able to say, okay, we're friends again now. So I don't know if that's something you find, or are you good at conflict resolution? I think I, now you've said that, I think I can see what they mean,

and I think I'm okay at it, but I think that's because my mum was an only. child. So me and her, we're not like siblings. We're not those terrible mother and daughters. Oh, she's my best friend. I hate that. She's your mum, right? And that's just how it is. Anyway,

but I do think, because we both get things off our chest, we'd rade and then we'd make up very quick. So I think I almost had that experience through her. And my husband, who first coming to meet the family, Manchester family, and he's from London.

So northerners. I mean, his socks were blown off by how brutal we could be to each other and then be fine five minutes later. So funnily enough, in my case, I'm not sure it was quite the same. I'm going to let Ray, I don't know if I'm allowed, but if someone tells me off. Well, we could do a little... I mean, there, Emma, I think it's fine. Go on, Ray. You're just being a bad dog owner, right?

Do you think so? Well, it looks empty. As soon as other people, do you think he's all right? Look at him. He looks like a rabbit anyway. Yeah. Come on, Raymond. Come on Raymond.

Stay away from me. Come on the link. Emma. We're going to change your... You know what's going to be tricky? You say this. Yeah. Am I going to hold the leave?

No. Okay. I've never done that before. Your son is going to meet this dog one day and that's going to be tricky because all children are obsessed by my dog. Are they? Yes, because look at him. He looks like something like the Jim Henson film. He is really cute.

But I still don't want to live with him. I feel that about a lot of people. I mean... I feel that about David Beckham. He's really cute. I don't really want to live with him. He might feel insecure. Come on.

Come on, Raymond. And look how he walks. He's so slow. He doesn't bark. He doesn't shed. If you're going to have a dog, he doesn't look like he'll turn on you, no. Turn on you.

Look at him. You never know what's going on in their heads. That's the other thing. Yeah, but you don't know what's going on in human beings' heads. Yeah, but we're equally matched most of the time. Are we? And he hasn't learned, and he's not capable of any dark arts. trying to conceal his motive.

How old is he? He's, um, oh look, he's being a bit, he's three in December. Oh, he's quite young? Yeah, he's two and a half. Right, it's a toddler. Yeah, he's a young child. Oh, look, there's a, that's a border terrier. He's like a 1940s dog.

I'm quite happy because that border terrier is so ugly, and yours is actually beautiful. So I'm really happy that there's glamour on this walk. Look at that dog. It's rank. Obviously, to all people listening. Can we use that as the trailer? all people are listening and board of Terriers

my book is still a really great week so tell me that's interesting about because I had that I became an only child later and unexpectedly in life because I lost my sister and what I would say to you

and any other only children is that in a way you know that thing about oh you'll have to care for your parents you know we all know things life thought happens when you're making other plans or whatever I lost my sister

and so I've had to learn how to be an only child That's interesting And when people ask me I think well it's just me And then I think Oh do I say But it wasn't always just me

Well I mean On a serious note Of a lot of people I've interviewed Who have lost people Let's say they've lost a child And As a woman I interviewed recently And I said how many children do you have

And she said five And only later did it transpire For our living But she always answered five because she has. Yeah. She gave birth and had five children. So I think you know, you don't always have to say the other

bit first, do you? Well, do you know what? I've got into the habit because I decided that it was I used to do that. I remember, funny enough a journalist off me once and he just said, oh have you got any brothers or sisters and I paused and I thought, I don't want to embarrass him. It's socially awkward. I just said

no. And it took me a while to think that was a real insult to my sister because it was kind of denying her entire existence and she has daughters and I sort of thought that's their mother so I just say yeah I had a sister and she died and it really was awful and I miss her and oddly you find and I don't say that it to my insurance break from the phone but people just open up to you in a way that you wouldn't expect which I want to talk to you about because that's something I think you're always very good at in your interviews but um before we get

on to your book and everything I also want to know when you were growing up here I'm I mean, I look at you now, and you've turned up with this incredible blonde hair looking stunning, and you're funny and articulate, and you're rushing around doing all this stuff. Who are you talking about? Yeah, go on. Were you the sort of, if it had been an American high school? You know, would you be the one in the college Valley High? Was that sweet? You look like one of the Sweet Valley High girls.

Were you the girl that everyone, were you the golden girl? My gosh, it's so funny you should ask this in the sedent. of quite literally on a physical level, no, because I was given photos yesterday by my old school from the archives. They wrote a thank you card because I went to talk to the girls there about the book. And inside this thank you card

are some of the most hideous images that not even my family remember. I'm mousy-haired with a bushy fringe on the netball team. I mean, looking like I could take you out, like an absolute bruiser. spots, like NHS glasses when they weren't cool and still didn't look good looking back.

I mean... When they had a plaster on the... Yeah, physically, no. I didn't really, if you like, in any way blossom until quite a lot later. I don't really feel, if I'm honest, until a bit later anyway, I wasn't... Because I wore glasses from the age of four

was quite self-conscious and then I got contact lenses and I thought I've arrived. Maybe a boy will look at me now, you know. So I was quite... basically quite geeky looking for a long time, if I'm honest. And then within myself, though, I did have good friendships. I do think only children make very decent solid mates because we don't have siblings. So you always have to bring a friend on a Sunday trip out.

That's what I had to do. And I suppose they get to know your family well as well. Yeah, yes. They're part of it, really. So I did have a good group of friends and I did really relish. school in the end. I did have a very positive experience at my school. You were very academic I get the impression, why do you? I was also very naughty. So I knew where the line was and I went right up to it all the time. So I was that girl who was late to school because I was snogging my

boyfriend next to the tree. And then I would come in and work very hard for exams and do well. Yeah. So the teachers disciplined me but also quite liked me. So I felt that Doing well was important to me, but also so was having fun. And, you know, I informed quite a lot of decisions, and I left everything to the last minute and made it as stressful as possible for myself to do well at exams and do well in school. See, I can't imagine you like that.

You strike me as a very organised... Now I'm much better. But, I mean, only yesterday before doing this speech to the school. I hadn't written it, and the girls saw me outside the corridor. In the same bloody corridor, I used to swat up. for the last five minutes. Now, I like leaving everything so there was as much adrenaline as possible.

And I do think there's something weird about live broadcasters. And that's part of our thing, which is that we can stay calm under some of the most unusual while someone is screaming in your ear. Shit, the lines drop, the guest isn't there. What the fuck are we going to do? And you're sat on television going, good evening.

I mean, that's not a normal psychology. Yeah, I wonder if there's... Because I know, I do a breakfast show. with Frank Skinner and I know that especially working with comics as that added danger but it's just that sense of this could go anywhere I wonder if there is an adrenaline it's the foreign correspondent gene my dad used to call it I mean obviously you know out in Afghanistan it's that thing of I like I perform best when it's slightly on the edge completely you know I'm not saying I don't do my prep but I'm saying the context

within which sometimes I put myself the best stuff can come from me or maybe I've just fed myself that lie. And the only stuff that can come for me is when I'm panicking. So, yeah, I mean, on paper I've probably looked a bit golden girly with straight A's and all that stuff. But as a person, I quite like to push the boundaries. And I hate rules. Do you? Hate them.

Well, that's interesting because that does feed into why you're so good at... Why you're not cowed in front of authority. I think it's definitely fair to say. I think being northern, you've got that a bit inbuilt into your character. Do you think so? Yeah. Especially in Manchester, you know, it's sort of, come on, let's have a go.

It's a Liam Gallagher Walk, is it? Yeah, that's sort of, all right. But, you know, just because it's never been done before, why shouldn't have you done? Or just because you shouldn't ask that question, why shouldn't it? I'm not saying I'm a huge rebel here. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm not a fan of authority for authority's sake,

Not at all. And I also think, look at him, I'm going to pick him up. No, it's all right. He does this, he just stops. He's just like, oh, I don't really like walking. I like to sit down. He's doing what good people in parks do.

He's thinking, why aren't we out the cafe yet? He is thinking, that I just carry him now. Bye, mate. Yeah, so I think there's that, yeah, I think being from a city like Manchester, sometimes there's a good outsider element. it. And I think that's also fed a little sometimes by being a woman and you might be the only woman in a situation. And I also think I'm not a particularly religious person but being Jewish, being part

of a minority. You also have that outsider element as well sometimes. So I think all of those things combined made me think of school that I like to and continue to, I hope, in some ways push some boundaries. And were your family orthodox? They weren't practising. It's a It's quite a boring thing to explain to people. I always wanted to be Jewish, though, and I really upset that I wasn't. Well, I like the fact that you essentially get accused of it, and I like the fact that people never believe I am. So it's good.

We could just do a life swap. I have lied before. Oh my gosh. I have as well to say I'm not. I've lied to say I am. Anyway. It's complicated to explain. It's complicated because my mother was a member of the Reform Synagogue, which is the more chilled out one.

Yeah. Let's try to bring some of the traditions up to date. And the Orthodox synagogue was also where she had grown up a bit. And my dad was a member of that. And they actually got married in both. They got two to ensure themselves on all levels. It's pretty Jewish to going to get two weddings. But anyway, so I grew up with a bit of both influencing.

But in terms of where we went for Rosh Hashanah, I weren't the only real time we always went. It would be to an Orthodox synagogue. Yeah. But I wasn't Orthodox and I'm not. Yeah. But that's interesting how that informed, as you said. say all that stuff.

Yeah. Culturally I am. And I think there is something in Jewish culture. You know, again, I'm not a fun of stereotyping, but there is something about you sit around the table and you question and you debate and you talk. And children are asked their opinions. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen in other households, but it is very culturally part of what goes on.

Because alcohol drinking isn't part of what goes on. Food and conversation. and debating. It goes on as complete path of the course every Friday night. It's a family. First time I'm touching the dog. You spoke to him, Emma. How did you find it?

Soft. Is it softer than you thought? It's like a bit bony on his head, though. I know. It's quite cute, but I don't want to take this further. Emma, I never thought I'd hear that. I do need to really wash my hand now. I've got a baby wipe.

Would you like one? No, no. It may happen again, the stroke, so I'll just keep this hand in reserve. Ray, it may happen again that's right. Raise a dog, by the way. We should just say, I won't take that out of context. Consent's important. With a Shih Tzu, Emma.

Shih Tzu's have rights. God, and you're a dog owner? Me too. Me Shih Tzu. So, um, so. Wait, you're going around on us. Oh, well, I'm going to go on this side of you, though. Okay.

Um, so you met, which again, I, I read about in your book, you met your husband. Yes. you were at university. I know. I'm telling you what happened in your life. I know, but it's still almost a shock, but it's 14 years today. It's not your anniversary. Since we went on our first date, yeah. And I'm spending it with you and the dog. In a really romantic park. It's great, he's at work and I'm with you. What's it? What are you going out tonight? Have you got any plans? Not a book event. Oh yes you have. But you know, we'll say hi when I get it. I'm I like that you're celebrating your anniversary by writing your book about periods.

It's brilliant. It's the most feminist act. I'm really proud of you. And did you feel because one of the things I loved about your book was that I felt it was I think it would be really well I found it useful and it was just clarified a lot of how I felt in terms of my attitude towards just being a woman and feminism and things I feel strongly. about and I I wonder was that something you always felt I mean I know your school was had a very famous some feminist icon yes it was evident pancourt sent her children and you know her great great grand-daughter yeah Helen Dr. Helen Pankhurst an amazing woman did you always feel what did it mean to

you being a feminist growing up do you were you aware of that concept I mean Manchester High I mean the minute you was the name of the school the minute you walk through the door you've not really got a choice It's sort of like waterboarding of feminism. But all it meant to me was equality. Right. And that was really important. And it also meant just not believing that boys could do things better.

I mean, talking back as a child, that's how I interpreted what it meant. I think when I was younger, the word feminism wasn't used, if I'm honest, as much as it is now. Mid-90s this would mean, yeah. Obviously, Spice Girls. Spice Girls, Girl Power, although I was very disappointed when researching the book to find that the Spice Girls had turned down the opportunity to endorse a sanitary towel brand, but obviously went for Walker's Crisps because that's Girl Power with a cheese and onion flavour. So there was obviously commercialised girl power going on around me, which, you know, I'm not going to be cynical about now because I wasn't about it then. I enjoyed it. Yeah, I was like really invigorated by things like Spice Girls as well as getting some of the series. suffragette history drummed into me.

Yeah. And I think just by dint of personality, rather than thinking there was a doctrine I needed to follow. And never really accepting, you know, jokes on the school bus about girls smelling at that time of the month or whatever it was, I used to just stand up for people and say what I thought. Yeah, really. Didn't find that a problem at all.

But I was nicknamed Emily. That wasn't a joke. Yeah, that was obviously based on. on old pancurst. I was hardly sacrificing my life and going on hunger strike, but it was a nickname from some of the boys. But you talk, and I find that interesting, about, I suppose, blossoming physically when you were older.

And I think sometimes that can be a real gift, because I think what happens is you can, and you touch on this a little bit in your book, or you quote people who do about, you can get trapped in that notion of your identity as a woman being very tied up with being attractive and being sort of desirable, I suppose. Yes.

So that means that you're less inclined, I guess, to call out bad behaviour or, because it's not likable. Yeah, I mean, I've said this, and I try and actually say to younger women quite a lot if I get the chance or opportunity to talk to them. I developed a talent of being disliked. And it's quite hard to develop, but I did do it. And working at a newspaper, my God, that helped.

Really? It's a tough environment. Because that was your first job when you... My first job was actually on a magazine called Media Week. Yes. As a business reporter and then I moved to the Daily Telegraph. But my point being is when a woman goes for something, there's this thing called the dominance penalty. And if we really want something or if we say something, we're difficult, we're shitty, we're bitchy, we're annoying.

If a man goes for it, gets promotion or congratulated a lot of the time. So, yeah. I just sort of... I think, again, maybe the whole thing that's what... well being an only child, you just think, well, I don't need you to like me. Yes, yeah. I don't need you. Yeah.

And you don't mind being on your own in a situation. That's interesting. So, because you're more self-sufficient perhaps. Exactly. Look at that. That'd be a nice date for Ray, that pigeon. He looked similarly happy to just live... If I ever wanted to change away from live daily broadcasting

and had thought about nature as a career, this walk is confirming I wouldn't enjoy it. Do you not like nature? No, no, I love walking and naked, but the way you just stop to look at that fat pigeon that looks on its last. I'd be more interested in painting this because this looks like constable. Don't you think this looks beautiful? This is beautiful. We should describe it. We're standing at a lake.

I'm going to take a picture of you because you look a bit like as a Botticelli or something, I feel. I'm not sure. I got compared to a milkmaid, which I wasn't sure about either. Oh, you look lovely. I'm going to make you have Ray in the picture. I think the scene is lovely, not necessarily me. Hi, Ray. You're trying so hard.

I think your career probably doesn't seem like it to you. It feels like, God, this is taken forever. Yeah, I've been there every day. To me, it seems like, oh my God, this was like in a three-year period. Ray? Come on, Ray. I'm going to pick him up. I felt like I was just so super aware of you suddenly in terms of...

I do apologise. No. No, but you were on... I think I first became conscious of you when you were on LBC. Right. On a Sunday night. Yeah. And you were doing quite late shifts on that.

And then it was just like, oh, okay, she's on Five Live. And it just seems, it was news night most recently. That was this year. You became a regular co-presenter. But what do they call it? Team, I suppose. Yeah, well, there's three of us on this. the stable I call it, yeah.

The damn fine fillets. Not because you're... I mean that in a boxing way. But it feels like you were just absolutely born to do this job, Emma, to me. I think isn't that way though? Isn't that always the way when things come along and it sort of just works? People go, oh, you were meant to do this. But actually, I did study politics at university, but for the first...

Is it Nottingham, isn't it? Yeah. The first seven years of my career, I never touched the stuff. I was writing about technology, I was writing about media, I was writing about lastly to do with women and feminist issues when I did the women's section at the Telegraph. And obviously that intersected with politics, especially when I started doing shifts on women's hour. Yes. But it wasn't like the hardcore Westminster stuff. And then that just became part of my daily life the minute I joined Five Live daytime.

And I think precisely because I'm not a Westminster correspondent. I'm not a lobby correspondent, as we call those journalists with the parliamentary passes, I ask questions that I hope are being shouted at the radio at home. I'm asking the question, I hope, that a listener wants to be answered. And I won't move on until I think we've got a comprehension of the answer. I know, you won't. But not in a sort of performative way, because it really doesn't happen in most of the interviews. it just, I mean, the ones that people remember,

they remember because then it maybe goes viral because of how many times they tried to... Like the Jeremy Corbyn interview, and there was... But it was interesting, when you interviewed Theresa May, which was a real coup to get her. That one was, yeah. I mean, I did a sense where we did like a phone,

but the first time I did it was a coup because it was the first one after her general election. Which did not go well. And she'd lost her majority. And it's one thing that really struck me when I saw that. It was a radio interview, but obviously I saw it on YouTube. But it was probably the best interview I've seen with her

because there was a humanity to her that I hadn't encountered. I had never seen her. And, you know, she admitted she said, I cried, didn't she? Yeah, I mean, she didn't want to admit that. That was quite an amazing moment in the sense of a human moment because you're sitting in the prime minister's office, which, by the way, has this fantastic gold-plated sign on the table that says prime minister, just in case she forget.

And at times she may have forgotten because it was so difficult to win a majority on anything. But I did make that joke so she didn't laugh. Did she not? I was like, do you need that? Anyway, the thing with her had been, she was constantly being interviewed by those Westminster journalists in that run-up.

She'd done other sit-downs before. But I'd just seen the last one she'd done had been with, I think it was someone from Channel 4 News, and they were asking the right questions fully and they weren't given the context I was allowed to sit with her for 20 minutes or so but they did just go Prime Minister how'd you feel to have lost the election?

Now I don't know about you but if someone asked me that question in that way as the first question admittedly they only had a few minutes with her I don't think I would answer it in a way that could give any insight on a human level so I just tried to actually think about the way into the instance

you and that admission which she actually didn't want to give because she said I was very upset or whatever and I said upset enough to cry and you could have heard a pin drop in her office and she looked at me and it was kind of this moment where she thought and I knew it as a woman especially where she thought if I say yes I'm going to look weak but if I don't say how I actually was and if I was upset enough to cry I think the fact I've even left this pause where Emma's even having these thoughts and I'm having these thoughts it's obvious I probably did. So her answer was this kind of perfectly cringy but brilliant, complex

response where she went, yes, one tier, eight here, I think she said. Because then it was at least she said, I did cry, but not that much. Yeah. And so, you know, everything was bound up in that and it was in the first four minutes. There were real highlights to the rest of the interview, but no one will ever remember them, because that's the bit of the travelled. Like the bit where I asked her are you a feminist and then followed up with well how can you be in bed with the DUP party who advocate anything but feminism when it comes to bodily

rights like a bullshit. So you know there are other parts of that interview that were much more robust but that opening bit I do think someone who's just called a gamble of their lifetime and it's failed you have to hear how they're feeling. You showed something about her which was vulnerability and that to me to show a Prime Minister as a vulnerable figure is quite an achievement. Well, I mean, also she was in some ways ready to, because the first speech she'd given, she hadn't, after the election, she hadn't sounded like she'd got the results.

She stood there and everyone was like, does she know she's lost? It's a bit awkward. I mean, yes, they're still the largest party, but they haven't got the majority. Yeah. So I think she sort of knew she had to do something. But yes, we went further than perhaps she or I, Did you get nervous Emma when you're you know I see you they always say watch this Emma Barnett scuring I know the language is quite muscular isn't it I mean I don't

I don't write those headlines of course you know the other one the other day is if you see what's this Emma Barnett eviscerate I mean I sound like I'm going around and really harming it disemboweling some individuals often as well it's just you were tempting to get them to answer a very straightforward question which they refuse to, but do... Do you get... Yeah, shall we? Let's go that way.

Do you get nervous, then? Do you get scared? Do you think, I don't want to ask this question, they like me and I'm getting on all right with them? Or do you not have that need to be liked? I don't care about politicians like him, you know? Not at all. But I'm not going into it thinking,

I want you not to like me. Or I want you to dislike me. I want you to hate the six votes. I don't want them to dislike me. I don't want them to like me. I want them to like me. I see it as a transaction and information transaction. Yeah.

You are paid by us. What are you doing? That's the aim always. And of course I'll think about what do we need to know that they're not going to tell us and how can I find it out? Yeah. And yes, I want things to go well. I mean, there are days where the agenda is very important and very big and you don't want to not ask the right questions. So of course you plan and you have apprehension in the sense of will I be able to ask it in the right way in the amount of time I've been given.

You know, there's a lot of choreography, if you like, going on all the time around you. And that is stressful. I'm not going to pretend. I'm really relaxed all the time. Yeah. Because I do. But you do very much see it as, you know, that's something that I know women have to fight a lot. And I don't think that's because we're born wanting to be like necessarily,

but that's, that is a sort of script that we're fed, I suppose, from a young age where girls are told you're beautiful and boys are told you're smart, I think you get fed this script of your job is to look good and be passive and be liked. And boys are told you need to be, you go out and achieve. Although I wonder if it is starting to change, because I now have little boy, but it may not, the way equality may be coming along the track,

might not be perfect either in the sense of boys now look a lot more at Instagram and see hench figures. I was only reading the other day about a boy who sadly took his own life and he was always saying how weedy he was. And there were these Love Island muscular Zeus figures. Yes, you're right actually. That's true. I'm not saying that the message is totally transferred that boys are.

Yeah, it's an unfortunate equality in a way. It's a weird equaling out in this messed up. society you mentioned you had you mentioned your little boy yeah and that brings us onto your book because obviously it's about periods it is you can't avoid that it's about period I don't wish to avoid it well I'm glad that you called it that um but you you talk when you're writing it during the book you mentioned that you're you're pregnant at the time of writing it and you say well sorry I'm actually not having my period.

I'll have you a really good break from it. And then I have the baby while writing it. And I have an attempt at a breastfeeding career. Yeah. And so I also don't menstruate during that time as well. So it was ironically the longest amount of time since starting my period, I hadn't had one. But there we go. Did that slightly inspire you to write the book, do you think?

The gap? No, just that when you conceived and when finally, because you are very honest about that it was a journey and a struggle. to get there because you'd struggle with your periods all your life, hadn't you? Yes, and eventually, while trying to get pregnant and failing to get pregnant, after two and a half years, I got diagnosed with endometriosis, a very painful period condition, which has impact on fertility. So we ended up having IVF, and that's when I always say, you know,

my luck came in because it is luck, and we were able to conceive. And I had really started to accept that, you know, I'd written in my diary, only I said I went I'm miserable. God, it was a full diary. for two and a half years. And, you know, because lots of people, just going back to your point about women and success, lots of people had said to me,

oh, you don't want babies yet because you're doing so well in your career. And I thought, fuck you. All I am doing is trying to get fucking pregnant and you've got three kids, just fuck off. And actually someone who had said that to me emailed me once they had heard about the reality and said, I am so sorry,

I assumed you were too ambitious for children. That's the next one. Too ambitious for children. Credit to her for apologising. Yeah. So anyone listening, by the way, if you think women who are doing well and don't have children didn't want them,

I'm not saying all of them do, but all of them did, but I bet your bottom dollar quite a few of them just couldn't get pregnant. Yeah, you just don't know people's stories, do you? You have to be so careful. I had basically been fobbed off

by doctors for years, for 20 years. Having seen them, and they just told me I had bad pain and to go and take some paracetamol. Yeah. And I felt really embarrassed because my job was to try and get answers up people for a living. And I had not been diagnosed with something.

And I do think our relationship, is a slightly separate point, but with the NHS, lets us down at times because we're so grateful to it. Yeah. We're so happy to be seen. And we treat doctors like gods, which most of the time they really are,

that we don't ever question them or push them in the way that we might, in other relationships in our lives and certainly if you had private health care which I didn't I think you almost demand answers in a way that you don't with the NHS sometimes but that's a slightly separate point

it still didn't detract from the fuss although it's separate but I do think also you make this point as well in your book which if I haven't said I absolutely love by the way but it's really weird that people have started reading no I know does it feel on that when you put yours out in the world.

Yeah, I just felt really odd. I thought, oh, it felt, that's so kind of you to read. I'm this weird. It's like they've read my diary or something. It is. But, um. Well, yours very much. Yeah, I know.

Mine's. But I did feel that, I do feel, and again, this is something I got from your book, that it's something that women are less inclined. I think women are less inclined to raise issues to do with menstruating and periods because they think, oh, well, this is just as crock. I have to bear and I'm born with it and it's meant to be awful and I have to hide it and never talk about it And as you point out, which is a stat I'd never even considered it's 25% of your life Essentially, which is terrifying that you go around in agony or in my case I used to always think oh

I mean I'm less but I've always had such heavy periods Have you every two hours I would have to change a Tampax so I would think I can't I've got that film is two hours 20 minutes I'm gonna have It's awful. Well, I mean, there was a guy I interviewed who simulated having a period for a week. A guy called Edgar, he's like a comedian in America, who did it for BuzzFeed. Yeah. And they created a pack of beet juice that dripped down his buttes into his pants. And the bloke kept leaking.

And he kept forgetting to have his pad changed. And he was like, you know, I didn't even have the hormones or the pain. And he said, I couldn't hack it. And I'm not saying bloke's couldn't hack it, but there is a real ritual. and fath that you get used to from a really young age that is silently dealt with and not acknowledged in any way by even the person going through it.

I got the impression what you wanted to do was sort of take the shame out of it. Well, I was trying to think, what's the opposite of shame? And to me, it's pride. Because pride is also infectious. Shane's horribly infectious. And it varies deep inside you. But so does pride.

because I went on a pride march a while ago and I was thinking, how joyous is this? Yeah. And I'm not saying I need like, us all dressed up as tampons marching through the park with Raymond Thiff. Although I would love that. Would Frank like it? I think Frank Skinner dressed as a tampon would be quite a sight.

Anyway. Well, Frank does a good thing with periods, which I think is a sort of taking the piss out of the male reaction. Right. Which is, you know, you say a very, good thing in your book about you're sort of urging women to stop using those coy makeup bags to use the loose put your tampon by in your ear mate I love it some women call it you know the walk from their desk to the toilet with Red Mile so I feel like you know it's a bit of a cliche but there's that amazing

Gloria Steinem essay from 40 years ago I mean it's a cliche to say what if men had this because it won't ever happen but she did write this hilarious essay of men had periods and she's right they would be standing on the corner of streets going i'm a three-pad kind of guy you know how much pain i'm blood i've had this week you know they wouldn't bother with a dainty sequined bag to go to the toilet or whatever you take they would and also tampons and sanny pads would be free yeah when men designed the world of work they would have mandated not just for paper and soap they wouldn't be paying a quid out of a dirty slot machine yeah a thick surfboard nappy it'll be different well also so so we're just

near a bus yeah which is why if you can hear the sound it doesn't sound very pastoral dog walk because we're walking up um Raymond's made it clear that he's not for walking anywhere he doesn't like the he's gonna come to the BBC he's gonna come to He loves it in the BBC. You get so much attention there, Emma. Because, you know, when you bring a dog into work, it's very powerful. Is it? I wouldn't know.

That's an interesting thing as well. And the history, there's not history of that period. I remember saying to my history teacher, I was genuinely interested. Yes. I said, what did they do in medieval times? And I remember everyone sniggered. Good question, though. But I was only about a 12 or something.

And I always remember she went appropriately. read. Yes. And obviously thought I was trying to be cute and mischievous. And I honestly wasn't. Actually, I'm going to have some more. And she just said, well, I don't know. I suspect they'd probably shoved a rag up there or something.

I mean, it's not relevant. Actually, I don't think I'd ever really thought about that again until I read your book. Well, the historian, Greg Jenner, bless him, has done a bit of work on this. And he of horrible history's fame. And it's quite a horrible history this one because, you know, poor women working in the fields

would just bleed into straw. Yeah. And it wasn't really until the Edwardian times that most women just weren't bleeding down their own legs or, as your teacher put it, finding something to put there. And, you know, in that respect, women must have had no idea what was going on. Yeah. And do you think sometimes...

And I think men would have been quite rightly appalled as well. Yeah. Because blood is terrifying. And in the medieval ages, yes, and all sorts of other times, you know, you're taught to fear it. I mean, the other thing to say, which someone did point out to me, is women wouldn't have had the same level of regularity to their menstrual cycles, probably because of diet and all sorts of differences. But put that to one side, you know, it was only... when some very thrifty clever First World War nurses when using bandages to absorb blood of the men coming back from the front

then thought I'll use them down there that we start getting in business. Yes, I was so fascinated to read that. I want to ask you as well, did the process of writing, how did you find that? Because it's your first book, isn't it? And how did you find that compared with, I suppose the slightly more adrenaline-based, Yeah.

It is slower. You find it, yeah. Definitely. But did you find it too slow or did you think right? I wrote quite quickly. The thing that took the time was interviewing the women. And actually interviewing the women I really liked because that's exactly what I do most of the time.

Yeah. I love talking to people and I love hearing their stories. I didn't love the writing of it, no. It's hard, isn't it? I found it lonely. Someone said Jane Goldman, who's my child of best friend, she's a screenwriter, and she's a very successful. And I remember I rung her Emma and I said,

I don't like doing this, it's so hard. And she said, M, no one likes writing, everyone likes having written. And that was a very important thing to remember. And then, you must have this bit, walking around a part with you. That's fun. Well, this is why I do this, because I get to basically say, who do I really like and want to be friends with? I know that Emma Barn.

So this is like a date. This is like I've got you here by still. There'll be no interview. You'll think, where's that interview? It didn't come out. I was meant to be promoting my book. But I'm fake Jew that I met in London. Can I use that as my Twitter bio?

Because David Medill has a Jew. I want fake Jew. You could be my official fake Jew. Can I be the fake Jew? So can I ask you something as well? People often... I saw a TED talk of yours, which I really loved.

Right, it's good. And it was a few years back in... probably when the idea, pre the book, obviously, but the idea must have been brewing, but you say why women need to be like snails essentially. Yes, I do. It's about evolving, wasn't it? And having your antennae out for different forms of sexism that men and women have got better at hiding. Which I love that, because you talked in it.

The reason I raise it is that you talked about ambition, and it was something said often of you. And when I was reading through the cuts on you, I really noticed that. Fierously ambitious. Yeah. But what does fierce mean? I'm eviscerating people. I'm destroying them. I'm fiercely there.

Fierce is frightening and aggressive. Aggressive language, isn't they? Used about me. But that's an interesting thing. How do you respond to people referring to you as ambitious? Correct. It depends. Listen, it can be used in a compliment as a compliment and it can be used.

as an insult. And we're not good at dealing with ambition generally in this country, never mind where it intersects with women. It's always worse when it intersects with women, always. But, you know, I just gave an example before of somebody thinking I was too ambitious to reproduce. Yeah. I mean, surely that's the ultimate ambition in some ways.

Not for everyone, but, you know, it's an amazing thing your body might be able to do. Yeah. And it's an amazing thing to give life. But I think generally, I worked quite a bit in San Francisco when I used to cover technology. And that was obviously a place where innovation was happening all the time. But failure was happening all the time. And success and failure were embraced as opposite sides of the same coin all the time. And saying you wanted something wasn't shameful.

But saying you want something in England. Yeah. in Britain is, you know, like you've seen as a massive part. Yeah, I can see that. The other thing is... Which is why I think people don't also that having kids thing, in a way, I think there's a coyness about that. We'll see what happens because no one wants to say, well, we're trying and it's not working.

No, and I totally fell into that myself. Did you? Because it really wasn't working, I actually didn't know what to say, if I'm honest, because I was so close to tears about it. And you know, I'd be in Women's Hour. It would always be at Woman's Hour. I'd start my period. Having just done a discussion with someone who had loads of kids.

Yeah. You just want to put your fists through the studio wall. Yeah. And was your partner? Luckily, you've been... It sounds like you have a good relationship. So... It does sound like that, yeah.

No, no, we do. We do. We really do. And he was brilliant during this process. Is he quite like you? When I say like you, like... Hi, children. Hello, children.

I love children. I'm just talking about... Yeah? Do you see what happened with my and the dog? Do they say chienne? Yeah. A bit French for the other. They loved.

Well, in this small area of town, they're probably British. Oh, let's speak French today, darling. Do you think when you bring up, you got a little boy, haven't you? Yes. And do you share the childcare with your, I mean, obviously you have to have help? Yeah, we have help. Yeah. We have good parents.

Do you? Yeah. Very involved. Yeah. Love going for coffee and cake at all times. and we have each other and we are, yeah, we're both work and we're, you know, we're like shift workers together at home. Yeah. My husband's didn't lose faith during the fertility. Really?

I don't know how he didn't, especially as I kept saying, it's never going to happen. And I'm not still quite sure how he didn't. But I do think, weirdly, because it is the woman getting the period each month. Yeah. Getting the email from your body. that it's just not happened again you get that moment on your own in a toilet

somewhere that's truly crushing and I'm not saying it wasn't hard for him it really was and I remember very clearly we went to a friend's child's first birthday and everyone at the party was pregnant it seemed and I've never been in more of a funk if I'm honest because I don't like I didn't like myself during the period I recently did a show with a lot of women, a live program,

most of whom were still having IVF and it wasn't successful yet. And I did that deliberately because we always hear about it when it's been successful. There's lots of people where it isn't, endlessly. And I did say the beginning of the programme, which I think you can only say if you've been through it. Here's my producer Claire. She had three children naturally. Don't you just hate people who can have sex?

and make babies and it works. And they all went, yes! And I was like, yes! That's the bit, the boy's bit of our personality all in unison. That's Schadenfreude and lies within us all. Well, look, here's some more children. Look, Ray's going to go down very well with them. Look, Emma.

I am going to have to make a call to these people because they are going to think I'm not coming. Why? No, let's go now. Aren't we near there? We're late. How late are we? Two minutes. No, let's get...

They're quite militant. Which Salon is in? It's just the blow-driver. Where is it, though? Is it there? No, I'm... Look, why are we so low? I think...

Hello? Hello, I've got an appointment now. My name's Emma. Five minutes. And I'm literally just two minutes away, so I just wanted to tell you I've got stuck. It's my fault. All right.

Bye. No, they're all right. You dealt with that very charmingly. We'll see. It's fine. We'll so. So tell me... Are you...

Do you get emotional like... Everyone gets emotional, but... Would you say you're... quite, you know, do you cry? Are you a cryer? I'm asking you the Theresa May question now. What makes you cry? Yeah, I mean, I cried at a really cheesy film last night. Did you, what was it?

Ali Wong has done a film on Netflix. Oh, yeah. Like, something like Maybe Baby or something, but I love Ali Wong. Have you watched her comedy show? Yeah, I know exactly. So anything with her, I'm watching. So I had a bit of a thing at the end of that, knowing it was so cheesy, but I had to.

Yeah, no, I do get emotional. Do you quite work? Because there's a lot of stuff around that, isn't there? I mean, when the Manchester Arena bomb happened, and we went to Manchester, went back, and for me to sit there as well, that was the place that always, I saw the spice girls, I saw Lauren Hill.

Yeah. I'm not making it about me. I just meant I had a real history in that particular building. And my first gig was when I was 11. Yeah. And you just sit there and you feel like so helpless. talking to the bereaved and talking to people who were there and the emergency services.

I mean, I did go off and have a big cry afterwards. Did you? I didn't cry on air. Yeah. I still, I don't believe I've cried on air yet. I mean, I've got it's not over, yeah? I've felt it. Yeah.

I can cry any minute now during this traumatic dog experience. It's not, look, can you joke him again? You've had to carry this dog. Yeah, but he's so light. You need a dog carrier. Were you just, I stroke his head. How did you find that? Boney.

Yeah, but it's so soft, Emma. Your dog is particularly glamorous. Do you know, I think we're getting there with you. I think we're further along than both of us thought we would be. You see, I think what you are, you're an adjust the sales person. I'm a what? You know you get optimist, pessimist and then people that adjust the sales. Yes.

I think you adjust the sales. Is that fair? Yeah, I'll take that. People often say the no-nonsense, like you do an agony column, which I love in the Sunday Times. Tough love, yeah? Oh, tough love's great. But also it's interesting because you talk about yourself personally, and I think there's an empathy, which is why I think as an interviewer, when you're in a political arena, I think empathy is quite a killer skill.

It's quite a killer quality to have to be able to draw on it, I think. because it's not expected you know people politicians are human beings it's not that I don't see them as such but what you've just made me think and I'm not actually thought about it like this before is

it's the only interviews I do because I do many other types of interview yeah it's the only interviews I do where my empathy isn't with the subject of the interview it's always with the people who are affected by what they desire so my empathy isn't with you you as the minister.

So it's displaced empathy. Yeah. That's a very intelligent thought you just helped me have. No, but it's true because, so you're coming at it. Yeah, from the point of view of the person, as you say, affected by the decision. That doesn't have the funding. Yeah. Are you there?

Let me say. Hi, it's Emma. I'm here. Can I just say it's my, it's this dog's fault that she's late? Oh, is this what happens? The dog gets you out of that. gets me out of a lot of things. The dog would have walked if you had to carry the dog.

I had to carry the dog. I'm really sorry. See? Dog gets you out of. Emma's arrived at her hairdressers now, and I really love it. I'm going to start coming here. I'm stealing her life.

I want her hair. It looks like that. Emma, give me a hug, please. Just going back here. Oh, will you give her another stroke? I'm not kissing in. You don't have to. Ray, it's been real.

He doesn't kiss on the first day anyway. It's been real, mate. Is he better than you thought? You are. You are a princess of the dog. And for that, I respect the dog. Sorry. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that.

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