Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Graeme Hall - 'The Dogfather'

Episode Date: February 23, 2021

This week Emily chats to The Dogfather himself, Graeme Hall. They discuss Graeme’s childhood in Yorkshire, why he decided to change his life at 40 and become a dog trainer and his book ‘All Dogs Great and Small’. And yes, Emily even picks Graeme’s brain about some of Ray’s habits! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So let me try it now. I've got Ray here. No. No, Ray, Ray. No. It's the Ray Ray Ray bit against me. No Ray, Ray. You're being a very naughty, but you're only a bit far away from learning. This week on Walking the Dog, I chatted to a man who's been called the best dog trainer in Britain. He's even known as the Dogfather. Yes, Ray. He will make you an offer you can't refuse. My guest is the presenter of TV's dogs behaving very badly, Graham Hall. There was literally no dog problem this man cannot solve,

so I was dying to find out more about him, and yes, okay, shamelessly pick his brains about some of Ray's less than appealing habits. Graham told me all about his childhood in Yorkshire, where he grew up dogless, and why he suddenly decided to change his life at 40 to become a dog trainer. We chatted about how his job is actually much more about people than dogs, and he's got some fascinating insights into human behaviour. He also told me about his sadness,

after losing his Rockviler's Axel and Gordon, and how Lily the Labrador boxer came into his life more recently. If you've ever seen Graham on Channel 5's dogs behaving very badly, you'll know that he's got a very calm down-to-earth manner with dogs, but he's also like that with people. And after chatting with him, I genuinely felt like I'd had a little bit of therapy. He's just published a book called All Dogs Great and Small, which is a really funny and fascinating read,

and I also recommend his podcast, Talking to, dogs with Graham Hall. And if you haven't seen dogs behaving very badly on Channel 5, then do. It's genius. I totally adored Graham. He's just a lovely bloke. In fact, I'd even go so far as to call him a good boy. And you are too, Ray, the ego of this dog. I'll hand over to the man himself now. I really hope you enjoy our chat. Here's Graham. Good boy, Graham. Good boy. Yes. There you go. Hey, careful with the voice. Don't be too excited. I might get hyper. I'll be running around the room and then you'll never stop me. I'm very excited because with me on walking the dog this week is Graham Hall,

the UK's best dog trainer. That was official, by the way. He was actually called that. And presenter of dogs behaving very badly. We've kicked off already because that's what you do. I've seen you go to people's houses and you just get stuck right in. You're a Yorkshire and you roll your sleeves up. No fancy standing on ceremony for Graham Hall. Whilst you're here, I'm sure you get this a lot, my dog is sitting next to me, my dog Raymond, and he's giving me what can only be described as evils. He gives me these dirty looks. Why does my dog give me dirty looks when I'm doing something?

And there's nothing like a shih Tzu for those sort of looks, is there? Disparaging, like, what do you think you're doing? What is it, Graham? Well, for a start, they don't understand how my question. So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're sat there talking to yourself in front of a strange piece of apparatus, right? So Raymond, like any self-respecting dog, he's looking at you going, have you lost it, mother? And the second part, of course, is yeah, he's like, well, hello, you're meant to give me attention, what you're doing? I wish I could be with you in person, but obviously we're responsible citizens and we're doing this remotely.

and you're speaking to me from your home, which is... Yeah, I live in the Cotswolds these days. So I'm famously a Yorkshireman, but I've lived... Actually, if I'm honest, I've probably lived outside of Yorkshire as long as I lived in. But I have the excuse that I have to live downstairs because I'm on missionary duty. So some of us have to spread the word of Yorkshireness.

So, Quayam, I want to go. back to the start of the dog father and where it all began really because you didn't have dogs when you were growing up, did you? No, that's right. My mum and dad were both working and my dad in particular was very keen that no, we're not going to have dogs. And one thing that he used to say all the time was it's just it's too difficult when they go. It's too hard when they go. And and I always assumed that he meant, you know, the end of life when they died. But actually, when I was writing the book, because the book's sort of part memoir, but I made a connection which I'd never made before,

which was there's a story that he told me when he had a dog as a kid, and he lived in a pub in Selby, in Yorkshire. It was called the Volunteer's Owners. It's not there anymore. It hasn't been for decades. But this was World War II. And for whatever reason, the dog got rehome. and the reason's been lost in the midst of time,

but it was taken away to a place called Garforth, which is a good 15 miles away, on the edge of Leeds. And the dog found his way back again, right now. I always, as a kid, thought, yeah, right, that's a bit of a long story. I've learned since that actually it's entirely possible. There's lots of cases where dogs have travelled much further than that. So for whatever reason, this dog came back, ended up on the doorstep of the pub.

My dad was there. His dog had come home, and then, of course, you know. His dad, my granddad, said, no, the dog has to go and took him away again, and that was that. And so when I was growing up, I grew up with this, we're not having dogs because it's too hard when they go. So that was that. Dogs weren't for us, really, and that was it. But I always kind of like dogs. And every time I met one, somebody else's, you know, there's a bit of an affinity there, let's just say.

I wanted to know a bit more about your childhood, actually. How would you describe it? If you could describe it in one word, I would describe it. describe my childhood Graham as Bohemian Chaos. I read a bit about that. Is it true that you used to, for breakfast sometimes, you'd have canopets from the party the night before, is that right? Yeah.

Well, my upbringing was a bit different. It was, I suppose, a bit more, yeah, Yorkshire Market Town. I went to school in the big city Leeds, but you and I have a one point of commonality, which is I too used to have unusual breakfast sometimes, sometimes which in my case was jacket potatoes. And that's because my dad was an electrician at the sugar factory. We dad would be on night shift.

So every now and again, they'd pull out a big potato that come in with the sugar bait. My dad had put the word out that if you get a couple of potatoes, bring them to me in the electricians workshop, because he was going to heat them up in the oven all like me and my sister, with our baked potatoes. So he'd cycle back about three miles from the factory first thing in the morning. morning on a push bike with with with baked potatoes in a in a tinfoil packet in his little saddle bag and that's what we had I had no idea that it

wasn't normal to have baked potatoes for breakfast but there you go so it's you your dad and your sister Andrea and your mom was a teacher is that right a swimming teacher yeah that's where you go out from here so someone was a swimming teacher that's right and her mum before her so So they both worked at the local swimming bath is not there anymore. And so, yeah, so we both need near out of swim, that's for sure. What was your family experience like? Was it a noisy household?

Was it a disciplined household? It's an interesting thing, isn't it? It's hard to judge. I think it was a fairly noisy household, but there was only two of us, kids. I mean, myself and Andy, Andrea, we were like. like cat and dog as kids. I mean, we're really quite close now and text each of the most days and all sorts of things. But back then, I mean, I don't know if you remember there was a pop song by Brian and Michael, and they sang that song about matchstick men and matchstick cats and dogs, right? You've got to be of a certain age to remember this.

Sadly, I am, because it was based on Lowry paintings, I believe. Exactly that. That's the thing, right? So that was the thing. It was a one-hit wonder. And I was a couple of years older than Andrew, but she loved it. She thought it was great. So she, as teenage girls do, she'd drawn up like Brian and Michael, and it was all in her bedroom. And then she put, and they hit number one, I think. So she put Brian and Michael are number one forever, right? So I kept taunting her going, they won't be number one forever, they won't be number one ever again.

You'll never hear from them ever again, as teenage boys do. As it turns out, more looked than judgment, turns out, I was wrong. Right. So every now and again, we're probably 40 years on now, I have to remind her that Brian and Michael aren't number one forever. So that's the kind of house we had. My mum trying to keep control of two warring children and my dad. It was quite a quiet guy, really. Just wanted an easy life. Yeah, he was trying to stay out of it, I think. What was your role in the family if you had to give yourself a moniker, like a spice girl's moniker? Yeah. I've never been asked that question. Which spice girl are you? Well, I think I think I was a bit too, the phrase that my mum would use all the time was too clever for his own good. This one. So I used to get myself into trouble. It was probably me. He started it most of the time with my sister. She'd be listening into this thing going, ah, finally. So that's probably right. And then I suppose I'm mellowed really. But yeah, it's funny. At school, you know, and this is some

I've never really told anybody. It was quite different because I went from this little market town, Selby, off to this big city Leeds that I was scared stiff of in truth. You know, I was out of my depth. And it's because it was brought up a Catholic. And so if you passed the 11 plus at the time, the Catholic grammar school was in Leeds. And so that's where you went on a train.

And so in this school, there was about six, seven hundred kids, but only three, four of us were from Selby. So we were real outside. you know so we were always you know picked on you know and I got bullied quite a bit I remember those times when I was scared to go to school cry my eyes out you know know I'm about to force me to get on the train you know so so in the house I suppose I was quite confident you know and I was I was playing that role but it was quite different at school really that can be a harder thing for boys to

admit aren't it I think sometimes yeah I think that might be right I think there was an element of and it was my mum My mum was the one who really sort of got the brunt of all, because I guess my dad was at work, but, you know, it's just like, you know, pull itself together sort of thing. You know, not in a nasty way, it's like, come on, you've got to go to school, you know, just get on with it, you know. And I suppose my mum knew what to do, you know, school was a long way away. She wasn't on the door step. So, yeah, it was one of those, really, where it's just like, and in Yorkshire as well, you know, up north, it's very much that, you know, come on, you know. It's like, boys don't cry when they're 14.

Don't be ridiculous. Get on with it, you know. So, hmm. I'm interested in your love of dogs and when it started. We didn't really talk about dogs an awful lot in the family, I suppose. It's just one of those subjects. It's like that's what other people do, you know. Where it came from, for me was, you know,

after I left home, grown up, found myself with a girlfriend who got a dog, you know. But there were dogs in your neighbourhood, because I've read your book. work? Yeah, there was. There was a little poodle called Pepe, and he was an apricot-coloured dog, and he lived across the way. So he lived in an estate that had been built in the 60s on the edge of town sort of thing. And just the other side of the cul-de-sac in this other bungalow was a very glamorous girl called Gillian. I wonder where she is now. And she was a bit older than me. He was dead cute, and he was a really nice dog. And the one of buying him. memories. I know where he's buried.

I could go back now and point to the particular patch in their garden because I remember one day that they were digging this hole and out came this plastic bag and the plastic bag went in the hole. What are you doing? That's Pepe. He's died and was burying him.

Because that's what you did. He knows this. There was no packed promotion service, you know? Yeah, I could take you back to that street and Selby and go to the current owners. Your front garden. Oh, no. That's why Pepe is. Yeah, so it was from one poodle to another because then sort of by the time I'd, you know,

I'd met this, this girlfriend and a poodle called Noodle who'd been named by the six-year-old daughter. I mean, I've got to say, as a name goes for a six-year-old, I think that's a cracking name to come up with. I'd have been proud of that one myself. When did you first realise that you had, I suppose, an affinity with and for dogs, that you were able to sort of communicate with dogs in a way that perhaps, You know, other people don't sort of lack the confidence to communicate with dogs in the way that that you do. So when did you realise that you got dogs? Well, it's a funny old thing because it's a creeping one that. There was no, you know,

it'd be great if I could tell you there was some dramatic moment when, you know, that was the moment when I realised. And it wasn't quite like that with, certainly with Noodle. It's just that, you know, we could look together. This is what dogs like, yeah, fair enough. And now and again, you might do something now or say, I'm like, at Noodle, you know, and he'd be like, oh, okay. But, and we got on really well. And I thought, this is, oh, this is quite good, you know. And people would say, you got quite away with that dog. I'm like, I suppose I have, really.

But you weren't doing anything. You weren't working with animals, were you? Because you'd gone into sort of management for Wheatabix. That's right. So I'd left uni and I'd studied Spanish, well, Hispanic studies actually. And then gone into, as you say, so Wheatabix Limited. So I was a graduate trainee initially and basically on the production side. So managing the factories.

And that was it literally 21 years there, working my way up. So by the time I left, I suppose it was quite a senior place really, a team of a couple of hundred people. So what I didn't realize then was that I was learning mainly by making mistakes how to be a leader of people, you know. And it's not, obviously, it's not about. it, well, it shouldn't be, about being bossy and shouting and screaming and forcing people to do things. It's about getting people to willingly come with you, you know.

And there are lots of similarities with that, and dogs, of course. And sometimes it's the tone, you know. So if you stand in front of a group of people in the canteen at two in the morning because you're doing the rounds of all the different shifts because there's a big change coming and you've got something to announce and you look unsure of yourself and you're, you're uming and a-haring and all the rest of it people start to think he's he's talking rubbish is this nonsense we're not going to go for this you know you're in big trouble um so yeah i mean i suppose i learned an awful lot but there was a bit of a us and them thing going on with you know management and

shop floor which i always found difficult to to sort of cope with you know and you're kind of just automatically one of them when you were one of the bosses and you imagine can't you walking in as the graduate trainee, as he think he is. But I've actually discovered since I left that people who worked with me back then have got in touch since say lovely things about, you know, I was a nice person to work with it. It turns out. Do you know what I think is important when it comes to leadership? It's this, we all have this.

There's loads of adages, isn't there, about things like, oh, you know, we like that person because she's, let's say, you know, firm but fair. there's a phrase that you hear all the time well that works with dogs so what I often say to people I'm trying to paint a picture of the way you need to be with the dog it's like think about the best boss you've ever worked with right and if you've got an image of that person you're probably thinking about somebody who didn't scream and shout to get things done because they never needed to go that far they were really clear in the way that they communicated so you knew where you stood right so you would say about people like that for example

example, I wouldn't want to get the wrong side of her, but actually nobody's ever seen what the wrong side looks like because nobody ever needs to go there. And one of the things that I'm always saying with dogs is that, you know, when you do get something right, not necessarily all the time, but they'll drip in the odd bit of like, oh, well done. And the ones that are really good at it aren't just praising, praising, praising, praising, praising all the time. because then we it loses its effect doesn't it? Take me back to when you first decided to get a dog because it feels like you you left Wheatabix and kind of in the same you know era you also had two dogs of your own suddenly.

About the time that I left Wheatabix had got these two dogs so one came after the other so there was Axel so Rotweiler got him from a breeder all of that stuff and then a few months later along came Gordon and it was about nine months later

there was nine months between him Gordon the Rotweiler I quite like that juxtaposition between this supposedly great big rough and tough dog and his name was like Gordon you know you'd never had a dog in your life and I'm thinking you're around 40 at this time

when you got these two Rotwilers to me that is like passing your driving test at 40 and just saying I'll have two Formula One cars please yeah well I did previous to that many moons previous I'd passed a motorbike test and went out and bought a Kawasaki GP Z-900 R so yeah well now we're getting to the heart of Graham here you just yeah um so we moved on from living with a girl with a with a poodle and and then I uh then I married someone who got a rock one actually so um so when we were we first met she's like you come come back to mine um are you okay with dogs I'm

yeah dogs dogs fine like dogs um but she didn't tell me that this was a rock violence so I walked in the hooch was the daftest dog in the world so I walked in I'm six foot two and he and he and his paws were on my shoulders I'm like oh my god so hello you're nice I think he was he was just that he was a great big lump of a dog but he was lovely and lived with him for quite a while. He died. He was 13 years old when he died, and that's really old for a rottie. And if you ever look back at pictures of him at that time, he really looked like the dog version of a very, very frail old man, you know. But he had a bit about him. I mean, I was fixing a fence at the backyard and where I lived once, and the ground was very uneven.

I stepped backwards. Didn't realize I'd stepped on his paw because of where the ground wasn't put my front. weight on it. He didn't bark or anything. All I felt was this whacking great clamping force on me on me calf, which was his way, going, get off, you fool. So my wife at the time was an A&E, now, I had been an A&E, so long story short, she said there's two ways to do with this. One involves a four-hour queue at A&E and the other involves me getting some kit from upstairs. That's the good news. The bad news is there's no local anaesthetic to be had. What do you want to do? So she stitched me up there and then.

I'm starting to feel that's what I'd call quite a Graham thing to happen. Because you talk about your childhood in this slight Yorkshire attitude of keep calm and carry on. It'll all work out all right. You just have to keep going. It'll be right. Yeah. I think you're right. Actually, that's probably quite a Yorkshire thing.

It's like, ah, it'll be right. You know, it'll be, ah, yeah. You know, and actually that sounds like my dad now, just saying, I can hear my dad in that. in the voice there. Yeah, go on, it'll be right. And I mean, that example there was, it was just pragmatic really. And it wasn't in a big tough like, oh, look at me, you know, it was, although I have died out on it since, but it really was just like, do I really want to go down Northampton

general for four hours or whatever? Oh, come on, just, yeah, it's going to hurt, but just, yeah, it's going to hurt for three minutes in it, so let's get on with it, you know. And then I went out in the back garden and it was a bit stiff, but I finished the fence and the neighbours thought I was mad. So Axel and Gordon, you really loved those dogs, didn't you? They became a huge part of your life. And they kind of, in one way or another, led to you becoming the best dog trainer in the country.

So Hootch was the previous, Rottie, who bit me. I knew nothing about dogs then. You know, and what happened was, so he died. and three weeks later we were broken into. And at the time, my wife said, look, once he's gone, he's gone, he was lovely, but I've lived with dogs for a long time. And of course, that was my first experience of losing a dog dying, you know. But once he's gone, he's gone.

And famously, it was, I'm going to get a white sofa because you can't have a white sofa when there's a rotty in the house. So that was that. Three weeks later, we were broken into. and we lost a couple of bits that were very sentimental. And I said, now, that's it. Come on, let's get another dog. Because if there had been a dog in the house,

it didn't need to do anything nasty. And I certainly didn't want to get a dog to train as an attack dog, you know, but just a dog barking. And if you ever hear of Rotchmann of Barking House, you wouldn't go there, you know. And that was sort of it. So I started looking around. I think it was just an excuse

because really, really, I wanted another dog, you know. so yeah so we got axel and and it was love at first sight um i i i realized the publication date was coming up and in my case that was the 18th of feb and i thought that i couldn't put my finger on it but that day just really rang about 18th of feb 15 years previously exactly to the day was when we brought axle back so from the breeder so get an axle um if you just said to me then You know, what do you think the chances are that in 15 years time, you'll have written a book, you'll have been on the telly, people will be saying, you know, you're one of the, you know, the most well-known dog trainers in the country and all that kind of thing. I've said there's no chance. So I got Axel and already it's like, okay, so at the time the devil dog in the press was the Rotweiler, and they would roll out.

There was a standard stock pick of a Rotweiler bearing teeth that often would get drained. out when there'd been some sort of dog attack sadly somewhere in the country and often that would be a different breed of dog but it was just the you know it was the one dog that they wanted to vilify him so I thought right he's got to be he's got to be bang on so I'm going to really throw myself into dog training and one of my things and it came from a grandfather that I never knew he died just before I was born I grew up with the shadow of this mad you know it's like he's just like his grandfather on and one thing that I Apparently he used to say it all the time. It's my mum's dad was if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well. And of course, everybody says that all around the country, but sending the Yorkshire, it just has this quite right to it, you know. So, as I'm right, I'll throw myself into dog training. And if a job's worth doing, so I really did.

I mean, I got their books. I learn everything, as everybody does. Went to a dog training club across in Birmingham, actually. So I used to travel there every weekend. then started sort of volunteering there, helping out the head trainer. And it sort of went from there. So by the time I got Gordon, I was sort of already beginning to do that. Because I'd seen these guys coming in. They're almost always men, actually. Or they were then. And I learned how much they were making a day. And I'm like, well, you know, the stuff that you're talking about

is kind of common sense to me. So if you can do it, so can I. Ricky Jervais who came on this podcast he always says there's no such thing as bad dogs just bad people what do you think about that well no I mean yes and no right so I think it was probably Barbara Woodhouse

who first coined that and that's because back in those days we're talking 70s 80s again now and for those who don't know Barbara Woodhouse was like the first TV dog trainer she used to wear a kilt and say walkies she did yeah well yeah Actually, a lot of what she wore was Tweed.

I mean, who would ever have imagined a dog trainer wearing Tread on the telly? It's ridiculous. So, I had a cravat. What have you got? So the thing at the time really was, if a dog's misbehaving, it's obviously the dog's fault. The dog needs to be punished. It's a bad dog.

And so she was the first one that coined this phrase, and it really stuck. No such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. Now, I think the truth is somewhere between those two extremes because I often go to houses. I'm looking at people going, you're not bad people. You're actually very reasonable people, but boy, have you got yourselves a problem here

and you don't know what to do. And often people are saying, well, we know we've got this spectacularly wrong. We just don't know what to do. Please help, just show us how. So you wouldn't really say they're bad owners, are they? But equally, that's probably not a bad dog. He's just been, you know, he's a product of his upbringing, isn't he?

So, yeah, I think it's interesting. And also, just like, you know, humans and we've been talking about my background which is really interesting because when you talk through in some depth with somebody like this you begin to realize a bit about yourself don't you where you come from we're all a product of our genes and the things that we've learned in life so it's the age old thing about nature and nurture and that's exactly the same with the dog so some of it's genetic and a lot of it is what you learn you present dogs behaving very badly on channel 5 which i'm such a huge fan of this show my dog raymond sometimes he's

He can be, he'll just literally get up and walk away if the TV's on. He'll only watch David Attenborough and Graham Hall. He likes your voice, Graham. I think he finds your voice soothing. Yeah. Well, that's a nice thing. Well, I'd say that was a compliment. It's funny though, you're right.

Dogs, they either get the telly or they don't. And Axel and Gordon were interesting because Axel, in his whole life, I don't think I ever saw him sit and watch the telly. He'd be in the room with you more often than not facing away from the telly. He just didn't get that it was there. Gordon, though, would watch the telly. He didn't react badly to it. He would just sit.

Of course he did. He's called Gordon. He's basically a man. That's right. Axel thought he was above it, didn't he? When I first came on the telly, the very first show we ever did, right? So you can imagine, he's like, oh, we're going to be on the telly tonight. So we're all sat there watching, you know, and Gordon was there with me.

Right. And you could see, he's like, hang on a minute, right? And he looked at me. And he looked back at the telly and he walked out the room. He's just like, this is too weird. It's a fascinating show because often what you're doing, you're part therapist with the owners, aren't you? Yeah, I think that's right.

The guy who was the head trainer at that club that I used to go to in Birmingham when I learned lots of this stuff, I remember him saying you're quite good with people as well as dogs and I think you should, you know, you should make this your profession. But the reason he said that, he said, was that you can only fix the dogs through the people. And of course he was right, because it's no good just going out, showing off, doing magic stuff with the dog. The dog goes, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll do anything for you. Yeah, great.

There ain't nothing wrong with your dog. See you then. That's not going to help anyone. So you've got to do that bit. So the show really kind of shows that, you know, so I go in. sit down and listen to what they've got to tell me. Okay, well, I better see this problem then, you know. And then it's a case of, right, okay, understand what's going on.

So the first question in my mind is, okay, what's going on? This dog said, why is he doing this? And how can I turn that around? And then I'll give it a go myself. And then if that's working, it's a case of, right, okay, you have a go. And often that bit's the hardest. And the one thing is that we don't pay attention to our tone of voice, right? So we're obsessed with the words we use because that's the kind of animals we are.

But we don't often listen to the sound, right? So you can say no in all sorts of different ways. So I had a client the other day who sent me a video. So this was a private client I'd seen a couple of years ago. Moved House, new problem, long story, sure. or sent me a little video of something the dogs doing and said, you know, any chance you know, have a look at this and just let me know

where I might be going wrong. And it was her voice. So to start with, it was like, no, and then it didn't appear to be working. So straight away, if you listen to this, and it's the sound that counts here, it's like, no. It's like, I don't believe you. Don't believe you.

It's like, this is never going to work. So it's, it's, it's, it's. It's not all about telling dogs off, but it's the same with praise, right? So if you think about praise, then there's an excited version or a calm version, right? By which I mean. So your voice could be, you know, oh, good boy, Ray. So let me try it now. I've got Ray here.

No. No way, Ray, no. It's the Ray Ray Ray bit against me. No Ray. You've been a very naughty, but you're only a bit far away from that. So that's where it started to go a bit wrong. It wasn't horrible. I've heard a lot worse.

So I need to ditch the ray, ray. Well, here's the thing. You know the thing where if you've got a long version of your name, right? So do people call you M as well as Emily? I love M. There you go. So I don't know if it was the case with you, but quite often it will be, if you call M all the time, right? It's when somebody goes, Emily.

Oh, I'm in troubled out, right? So you can use that trick with the dog. They don't recognise the fact that this is the long version of the show. It's the sound, right? Because when you, if you were to go, if you use Ray Ray Ray for the noise stuff and you went, Raymond, it's the sound.

Listen to that. Dum, Dum, right? Raymond, no. It's like the beat of a kettle drum. It's like, doom. End of. What I like, Graham, is that I am learning about myself because I think if I have to tell someone

something difficult in an email, I'll always put, sort of qualifiers around it. And I think me saying, no, Ray, Ray, is the same as me saying, just thought I'd drop you a quick note to say, can you stop playing thrash metal at four in the morning?

If you wouldn't mind awfully. If you could bear it in mind, I'd be so grateful. Do you think that's the same thing in a way as me saying, no Ray Ray, Ray? Yes, we do that quite a lot. I'll tell you another one, a classic that we do.

and moving away from sort of tone of voice, but actually contradict myself now, because these are a couple of words I'm going to say that we often use one we shouldn't, right? So spot what's wrong with this? If you say to a dog, come on, be a good boy. You're saying that while he's being naughty, aren't you? Right?

But you're saying, da, da, da, da, da, da. So he's hearing a load of blah, blah, blah words he doesn't really get. But good boy, he's like, oh, I know those two words. So he's like, so I'm crapping on the carpet and you're going being a good boy, good boy, you like it when I crap on the carpet. Oh, well, you'll wish he's my command. And that's dogs for you. The other thing about dogs is they're so literal, right?

It's just like, no, yes, thank you very much. You didn't need to explain it in a thousand words with a dissertation, thanks. It's just like, don't do that, do do this, thank you. That, to me, that's the joy of dogs, really. And you've said as well, both in your book and you say this on the show, excitement often is the root of the problem, isn't it? Over-excitement. It's quite an unusual on this for a British doctrine in particular, I think, to be saying,

because the traditional way of doing things around here has been the whoop-y-do stuff. It's like, yeah, woo, you know. If you go to any puppy class in the land, it's all of that. And don't get me wrong, there is a place for that. So people saying that they're not wrong. It's just too much excitement, the wrong time is what gets into trouble, all right? It's very rare that anybody's ever called. I think it's happened once in 5,000 dogs where somebody called and said,

can you send Graham out in a hurry because my dog's too calm? That's super rare. Mainly, he's barking too much. He's got separation anxiety, which is a kind of excitement. He's running around and won't come back. He pulls on the lead. It's all different flavours of too much excitement. So if you use praise in too excited a way,

in those moments. So let's say you've got a dog who's barking for whatever reason. Doesn't matter for the time being. He's just barking, right? And then he stops. And we think, ah, great. He stopped. He's quiet.

Therefore, I must now praise him for being quiet. Yes, that's correct. But if you do it in an excited way. Oh, good boy. He's like, pop and he's back up again because you've just revved him back up. So excitement's usually the core of the problem. And if you praise them for them being good

and you do that in an excite. way you've you've messed it up so I'm kind of I'm almost obsessed with can I hear excitement in that voice or calmness and does that match what we're trying to do here you know the opposite's also true right so if you're trying to do I'll give you a great example of this recall getting a dog to run back to you so that's about excitement you want excitement for that one so so you your call needs to be nice and bright and and happy so a bit sort of like you know Fido, come, you know, that kind of thing.

Because if you stand there and go, as many men do, right, Fido, come here, right? Fido's like, what I've done about that? You sound a bit upset, you know. That's where you need excitement. So when we did a celebrity special for dogs behaving very badly, and Denise Van N was on it, of course, she's an actor, so she knows how to project a voice and the rest of it. So her partner, she was explaining to Eddie how to do this, right? And then she didn't actually do what she told him.

She sort of lightened everything up. And I'm like, hello, listen to yourself. And I think we do that. You know, we go all daft when there's a dog around, you know. You had Michael Owen on that series, and he had a staffie, I think, didn't it? Mm-hmm, he did. So the problem that Michael had had, and we had some CCTV footage, of it is that somebody had been walking past the entrance of his house and his dog had run out

and actually bitten the other dog which was very out of character because he was such a sweet dog he was lovely however yeah that's obviously a big deal now the man was lovely about it apparently and it was all sorted out very amicably but michael was a really responsible dog owner and a bit like when i first got rotties he's like look he's a staffy you know people right they're wrongly have a perception about them and, well, wrongly frankly, you know, so if he scares somebody or whatever, it's going to be a big deal. And, you know, Michael Owen's famous. So the dog's got to be just right. And what was happening there was that every time there was somebody walking along the footpath, which was sort of bored at his property, Michael's starting to tense up. You could see it.

So he was beginning to go, oh, no, here we go. And it was in his voice and everything. And of course, So the dog's like, okay, so there's some people down there, you've gone from your normal cow himself to on edge. There's a problem, isn't there? You didn't say, calm down, count down, count down. I should have done, shouldn't I? Calm down, lad. You should have just turned up and said, look, Michael, calm down, calm down.

Yeah, count down, lad. If you could just put the money in my account, that's not. Has ever been a case where you've thought, I think this person possibly is not the right temperament to be a dog owner? Yeah, that happens. You know, I've been into houses where, you know, it's, you know, there's a man and wife and a dog, and the dog just does not get on with the man. And I'm looking at the man thinking, I don't particularly like you myself.

I can't exactly blame the dog. You know, there is, I think, still in our country this blokey thing of dogs must obey. You know, I am the master. You will just, you know, and I'm not going to put any effort. thing because usually the girls who end up taking the dogs to the training classes, you know, and then the guy benefits from that, but on the odd occasion the dog doesn't obey, then it's an affront to his masculinity, you know. You've got to earn the right to be the leader, aren't you?

You know, and again, I go back to that sort of human leadership thing, you know, shouting and screaming and bullying isn't the way to go. Frankly, I suppose it will get you so far. It's not the right way to do it, but that's not where you want to be. and things like rules like the dog must never be on the sofa dog mustn't be on the bed another one that's very common is you must always go through a door first to show a moose boss so where those things come from is

yeah if you get a dog and again there was one on the show very recently where a youngish vizler actually was called rougar he was on the back of a sofa looking down on mum and dad you know and it was just leading to this like this dog can do anything he wants where he wants it can sit where he wants you know there are no boundaries um so in that case it was yeah let's get him off the sofa that's going to send a signal but it may well be if you said to me what me and re we sit on the sette and we watch the telly and it's just lovely and really nice i'd be the last person to say that dog must be off the sofa because you haven't got a problem

i want to talk about um something a bit sad because it isn't i think this will be really helpful to people listening graham because you write in your book really movingly actually about when you lost your dog, Axel. And then Gordon, not that long after. That's right. A couple of things I'd learned from other people is there are perhaps good ways of letting go. And one thing that I'd learned over the years is if it's possible to get the vet to come to you, if you know it's going to happen and perhaps today's the day, then that's nicer for

dog because they're in their own environment. In the case of Axlan Gordon, I can still see it now, you know, in the kitchen, lying on the floor where they've just spent so much time, you know, and they fall asleep, you know, and it's sad for everyone, but it's easier for them. So that was a lesson. I really wanted to get that across. And the other thing was, if you've got two dogs, and I'd seen so many cases over the years, and people said, we lost a dog, and then the remaining one spent so much time, scrabble,

at the door looking out the window couldn't understand that the other one went to the vets one day and never came back you know and there's no signs behind this particular one that i'm aware of but it it just seems that they get it if they see the body afterwards you know briefly so if it happens at home again it's easier to do that so with axel um the hardest thing about axel was making the call to the vet um excuse you me. Even now, I think you can tell it, affects me. And I remember picking up the phone and saying, can you please send Hugh, Hugo, and I couldn't say the rest of the words. And the lady knew what it was and said, I think you want me to send him for Axel. Yes, please. But we put Gordon out the

room and Axel went and he was lying there. I'd known for a long time. He was a nice guy. brought Gordon him. Gordon was, well, kind of hilarious. So he came in, I'd one sniffer axle, kind of went, oh, oh, you're dead there. Oh, well. Ah, vet. Hello. Let's play. Blimey, Gordon. So, and then he did go through a bit of a grieving process, which is typical of dogs. They, you know, they often are a bit subdued like the rest of us, you know. And, and I think there's no, there is no speeding up of that process. just got to go through it and it takes us all, you know, different amounts of time and, and, you know, the old sort of classic thing about grieving, you know, the anger and disbelief and all that stuff, it happens at different times. And I don't think there's any set thing. That's what I've learned.

But that was that with Axel. And Gordon then, a surprising thing, I suppose, happened with Gordon, over the next few months, and he was already an old dog. He was out from under the shadow of Axel. Axel was very much the boss of the two of them. you know so once axel was gone garden was like right so i can run around the back garden and make a complete fool of myself and nobody's going to give me the evil eye you know and i didn't realize quite how much effects axel had on him i think um so he bounced around like bambi and there'd

been an element of that right through his life he was always a cheeky chap was gordon um and uh and and then one day just a few months after axel had gone really um i sort of noticed that He wasn't bouncing around like Bambi anymore. He just wasn't, you know. So I thought that's a bit odd. Nothing you could put your finger on. So I took him into the vets and said, just check him out. It turned out he had tumours in lots of different sites,

including we thought in his brain. So it was a case of, right, we need to think about, okay, so do we prolong his life, you know, get him on the right kind of chemo and all the rest of it. And that was likely to promote by about a month, you know, Hugo thought. But, you know, you ask the question, is like, actually, who am I doing this for? You know, am I doing it for Gordon or am I doing it for me? Because I just don't want to, you know, say goodbye.

And you come to the conclusion in the end that I can't give him a month of bouncing Bambi anymore, can I? I can't give him a month of being two years old running through a. of the fields. I'm just going to keep him going because, you know, to avoid the obvious. So in the end, palliative care was surprisingly easy decision to make. Let's just keep him pain free

and then, you know, it'll happen, won't it? So, but it was incredibly quick. That trip to the vets, I think, was on a Thursday and over the weekend he'd deteriorates and suddenly he couldn't walk very well. He was bumping into things. And it was on the Tuesday that we said goodbye. Yeah, and about the same time my dad died.

So, yeah, hard time that was. I am. I'm so sad for you because, by the way, I'm crying. We're all crying. Ray's crying. It was really interesting with Gordon. He understood what had happened to Axel like in a second. I mean, I was amazed at it.

He literally looked, sniffed and went, yeah, right. And that was that, you know. And he never once did the looking out the window or anything like that. He was just flat for quite a while, you know. So, of course, then it was a kiss of right. Should we get another dog? You know, but it was a while. It was a few months, actually.

So I was a dog father without a dog for a little while because it was just too soon, you know. I totally understand that. And you've had Lily in your life recently, haven't you, as well, who's a lovely... Labrador? Yeah, Labrador Crossboxer. So I always describe her as half-laborate or half bonkers. She's... People have said that about me, to be honest.

So there's worse things to be called. But yeah, I mean, she was lovely. So she was a rescue dog. So I'd done the puppy thing. And then I thought, right, now let's get a rescue dog. So for a couple of reasons. One, I'll be really honest, was just a practical reason. It's just like I'm not around enough to have a little puppy and go through all the puppy things.

And I think people sometimes underestimate how much effort that is, you know. Labradors are a pretty good bet, actually. I don't really want a case of my own when I come home at night. People imagine I would take on a really badly behaved dog and turn around. And it's not that I can't. It's just that when you've done it all day long, you just want to come home and cuddle your dog. When you've been out with Lily, have you felt that it's a bit like supernanny being out with her own kids, I think. And she must feel very self-conscious.

If her child has a tantrum, it says, I don't want to go to McDonald's. You think, oh no, my brand's in trouble now. Please, for a hurry. So some extent, it was ever thus. And if you think about where I came from with the Rossies, it's like these dogs have got to be perfect because they're rock violers. Then it became, I'm the bloke with the two rot violers. who's now a dog trainer, who you think he is. Yeah, those dogs have got to be brilliant.

So, and then, yeah, suddenly, you know, I'd got this, this dog who pulled like you wouldn't believe. I mean, she was lovely dog, great timbre, bonkers, absolutely mad. So a friend texted me and said, you got her that, yeah, does she pull? Because I'd said, you know, apparently she pulls a bit. Does she pull? I said, does she pull? She's heading up the 8.15 to Houston tomorrow morning.

So I'm walking this thing who's pulling me arm. I'm like, Lily, we've got, you know. So yeah, so that took a bit of training. But yeah, but there's nothing like it. I mean, she's so excited to see if I've been away for a while. I come back. And Saturday morning, for example, I walked in and she hasn't seen me for a little while. It's just like bouncy, bouncy.

It was like spinning on the spot. Boxeruners will recognise. this they spin on the spotlight you wouldn't believe it looks as though they're trying to chase the tail but it's not that and it's just a spin spin spin spin and then she's like jumped at me you know and they went spin spin spin spin spin and then jumped at me and I thought yeah the cameras were on now it'd be like look at him can't control his own done but she just literally couldn't control herself well that's a nice thing in it how do you cope with fame or being recognised Graham is it something you're

comfortable with yeah I am I say people are invariably lovely you know um i find so um but yeah i can i mean the first time was a bit weird and i was at petrol pumps uh near where i live and i was putting some fuel in the car because the thing is with me as well that car is is recognized everywhere you know the big white landrover discovery with this dog number plate you know and even though the first bit's fuzzed out on the telly you just people just spot it so but the first time there i am putting fuel in mind of my own business I can hear from behind is dog father I'm like the heck's that and it is it was a lot of builders in a white van who then went circling around all the pumps twice going dog father white

mate are people friends and strangers a lot of the time do they approach you and ask you advice is that always people's opening gambit often um and you know i think you just got to i think you'd be a bit up yourself really if you if you saw no no i couldn't possibly only do that on the television, dear, you know. So I always think, well, you know, if I can help a bit, there's always a caveat, which is, look, when they're seeing your dog and spending a bit of time understanding it, there's a limit to what I can say. But, you know, try me. So, so yeah, you get that. I think people who end up performing or having some sort of public role, I think they tend to be extroverts as kids. I think they tend to have what I call the look

of me, Gene. I think there's a performer in you, isn't there, that was sort of dying to come out, I feel. I think that's right. I mean, I remember as a kid and it's the sort of thing that, again, it's a cultural thing in our country, you know, it's like, like, don't admit that you're like showing off because that's not a done thing. We're British, you know. But yeah, I was like that. I was as a kid. It's like, hey, look, yeah, it is literally the look at Regie. Yeah, it's brilliant that. It was like, hey, I've done this thing at school, so I'm going to let me show you, you know, so yeah, yeah, there was that there. I'll recognise that, so you would be in trouble, I think,

if you got into this world and then really didn't want to talk to people when they bumped into it in the street. Do you know what I mean? I think you've, you know, I like talking to people, always have. And I say people are invariably nice. So it's like, you know. I can't imagine you, Graham, losing your temporal, shouting at anyone, really. You seem quite calm.

Yeah, I mean, we've all got. I think we've all got another sign, but I am pretty much on a level most of the time, but I do get quite passionate about certain things, you know. What do you get passionate about? Well, I can, I'm not really a massively political sort of person, for example, but I see certain things that happen that I just think are outrageously wrong, like people go into Barnard Castle when they shouldn't be and things like that.

If we're flat mates, let's say, I don't know, let's say you're upset because I haven't loaded the dishwasher and I'm your flatmate. How do you express that anger at me? Yeah, you see, I'd be, I think I am, I suppose I'd been accused of being blunt before because it is just that yours, I'll just sort of say it, I think. What would you say? What would I say?

I'd be like, I'm I the only one around here whoever does that bloody dishwasher, you know, something like that, you know. I don't mince words when it comes to things like that. Well, you know, people often say about, you know, know it's like I tell it like it is is that Yorkshire thing yeah I think that is true I don't think it's I don't think it is one of those cliches that's sort of made up I think it just is that that's the case the other thing about Yorkshire isn't when you're talking about that sort of thing B words mean nothing in Yorkshire bloody bugger it's just like all it's just

it's almost polite conversation so and that adjust you have to adjust a bit when you come down south so so you see in the house I'd be like the bloody dishwasher again you know that's just the way I'd talk. How someone comes across is to do with your capacity for tolerating it, really, isn't it? Because it's like with my dog Raymond, or Ray Ray Ray, Ray, he gets, he's very small, Ray, Ray. And so he gets very frightened when we're on walk sometimes. If he sees bigger dogs, I see his body language, he stiffens, he tenses up. And to me, that feels reasonable.

Because in the same way that if I'm five foot two, So if Kylie Minogue came charging towards me and said, hey, do you want to have a wrestle? I'd say, yeah, why not? Do you know what I mean, though? But if Arnold Schwarzenegger did that, if he said, we will wrestle, I would behave like Ray. I'd say, no, this is dangerous. Well, it is. I'm chuckling to myself because I'm just trying to work out exactly how I would react

if Carly Minow came running up to me in a park and went, Graham, do you want a wrestle? I'm like, well, let me think about that. It probably would be quite different to Arnie, in fairness. But dogs and humans aren't the same with that respect? I spend a lot of time pointing out similarities between dogs and humans, right? We've done it all of this conversation, really. But here's one of the big differences, actually. Dogs aren't as bothered about size as us, because I think we've all seen,

they don't necessarily sort of go, I'm small, you're big, therefore I'm scared. There can be a bit of that from a learnt behaviour. if they got splatted by a big dog by accident. And if Ray's sort of natural tendencies to be a little bit nervous outside or whatever, I'd tell you what's interesting though. If you get a dog, your case is interesting because sometimes what I see is somebody gets a dog

when they're very much in a grieving process or not in a good place themselves as a kind of fix it, right? And that dog, let's say you live on your own. So the dog is looking at you for everything all the time and you're actually not looking your best self. You're very upset most of the time. The dog starts to sort of reflect that, you know.

And that can be, for example, and actually I think there's an episode of the show coming up like this, where you've lost a dog, and it's the dog that you're grieving for, and you get another one straight away. It's maybe a wee bit too soon, you know. So or you're just naturally a person who is, you know, just a bit anxious outside, you know.

So if you walk along thinking, not sure about that fellow walking towards us, you know, if on the outside you can give off this sort of like, yeah, it's a guy, it's fine. You know, Ray's like, mum, mum, I don't like this. It's like, yeah, yeah, it'd be right, you know. Okay, so what I'll stop doing is picking him up saying, Ray, get away from my dog. That's the one. Okay. I want to mention your podcast, Talking Dogs, with Graham Hall, because it's so brilliant.

It's sort of similar to the show in podcast form, essentially. isn't it? You take topics every show, but you also deal with specific listeners sending in problems they're having. The show on the telly is great and entertaining, but we're only scratching the surface, really. You haven't got the time on the telly to explain why you're doing what you're doing very much, just the very basic details. Whereas in a half an hour's worth of chat on a podcast, you can go into a bit more of the psychology behind it, all that kind of thing. but also it meant that people were contacting me through the various social channels and going can I ask you this question and then we you know I'll be going ah that's brilliant could you could you put that in a voice note so that we can have it on the podcast and I'll answer

it there because lots of people would want to hear the answer to that we often will split them down so instead of let's say doing a podcast on dogs being aggressive let's talk about dogs being aggressive because they're nervous or a dog being aggressive for a you know, whatever a different reason, you know. So often people will, they'll email us in. Sometimes I just read out the email, but it's always great if you can hear somebody's voice, not least of which, because they've got different accents, which I love accents, and I love travelling around the country.

I just think it gives the podcast a bit of colour, you know. So we had one recently. I'm not above having a bit of fun with people. There's a lady sent a voicemail in, and she was from Hull. And she said, I've got this. problem with me dog and he's doing this that and the other and I've tried everything and I've tried saying no right even that don't work just like you do want to tell you right so well the first thing is you're from Hull I can tell straight

away from that accent now for those of you who don't know Hull in Hull people say things like no there's snow on the road right oh no there's snow on the road so the first thing that you're doing wrong so is you say you've tried saying no well just try saying no like the rest of us all jokes apart I'll answer your question so you can have a bit of fun you know so the people I love it when people are asking genuine questions because instead of me just rattling on

imagining what people might be interested in well I might as well answer questions that kind of proves what they're interested in really and you learn all the time you know there's times when you do something you think I got that wrong now pushed a wee bit too hard maybe or not hard enough some people you can be very direct with

it's like oh no you've done it again aren't you right go on don't do that I like that you're talking to the people like they're the dog. No. I'd tell you what, get me together with a toddler and I have to really bite my lip because I'm inclined to go, no. You know, I've got grandson now and he's three, four. He's what a grandson?

Seth, no. I didn't even know you had kids. Ah, well now. So remember Noodle the poodle. noodle the poodle was named by six-year-old daughter of ex-partner yeah so six-year-old daughter

ain't six anymore she's 30 just turned 30 very recently I'm lovely leaving for you in her life that's so nice yeah and when we went our separate ways and mum and I it was it was a case of

because we were together for three four years I'm like we had this moment by that time she'd started to call me daddy because I was the only daddy that she'd ever known actually and it was like what do I call you name?

And that was one of the most sad things about that breakup. You know, what do I call you now? And I'm like, I don't know, darling. And you can still call me daddy if you want to, you know. I said, what about pretend dad? I think we'd just move from daddy to dad, you know. So I'm like, what about pretend dad, you know? And she went, yeah, well, you can be a pretend order.

So we did this jokey thing for years and years where if, and we kind of kept in touch on and off and then a bit more, I suppose, in the last few years. So I'd be out with this gorgeous 20-something and people go, oh hi, is this your... Yeah, this is my pretend daughter. Oh, no. And he just looked to see the reaction.

I ask everyone who comes on here, and it's totally up to you if you feel comfortable answering this, but I ask people if they've had therapy. An interesting thing there is that as you're saying, I'm going to ask you this question, and it's up to you whether you're answering. My brain's already going,

I'm going to answer it, whatever it is, because the best way I can. No, I haven't had. any therapy. And yeah, it's an interesting thing. I sometimes think it would probably help and I'm certainly not against it. There's, for years, if you'd have asked me, I'd have, you'd have got the standard Yorkshire answer of like, therapy, load of nonsense.

Money for old ropes. They take your money and they just talk or even worse. You talk. They do now, I mean, I've, you know, I know people, people do. I've known of people who, for whom it's been really useful. so but no I haven't personally I mean I could be all cheesy and tell you what the dogs are my therapy but there is an awful lot in just going out for a walk with a dog funny enough to bring it back to the name of your podcast but you know there is great therapeutic value let's put it that way and just getting out in the fresh air with your dog what's made you sort of feel less critical of it or inclined to have a snap judgment about it do you think um talking to people like I think we've done it, you know, and realizing that, yeah, actually, I think it is going to make. I had a couple of experiences, I suppose, a few years ago, a friend who just went to therapy.

And I know these days they do therapy that's very much sort of time bound. It's like we're going to do it this amount of time. But I knew somebody went for like over a year and it was just like, you get the impression after one. I think it's almost as though they're looking for problems here, the therapist, just to keep the money rolling in, you know? terrible thing to say and I don't think it's like that anymore you know I think it tends to be more focused on okay let's get to the bottom of this problem but what I do you might say let's look at this problem understanding it gets the bottom of it and then work out how to fix this as quickly as we reasonably can you know and that kind of therapy makes sense to me and I also ask people

when they last cry but I think you sounded like about 15 minutes ago on this podcast yeah Yeah, get me thinking about my dogs. You know, losing my dad was sad, but he was 90. We were very close, and I wrote the eulogy and stood there in church and got through that, you know, and there's obviously been tears over that. But the dogs, even now when people ask me to talk about Axel and Gordon and lose them, recording the audiobook, for example, I mean, words that had written months before, hand. I went through them the night before. I thought, right, I'm going to get through this.

And I said to the sound engineer guy, look, I might struggle a bit, you know. And I did, you know. So, yeah, talking about losing the dog sometimes does it? So yeah, last time I cried, about 15 minutes ago. I have so loved talking to you. And I really think everyone should read your book. All dogs, great and small. It's kind of, there's a bit about your life and a bit more about how you tick and how you got into this. But it's also there's some of your kind of greatest hits there from the show. And it's your, now that's what I call dogs. Yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it?

I wanted to write a book that would kind of share with people how I do this, you know, the thinking behind it and all that kind of stuff. But I desperately didn't want it to be some boring training manual. So the way to not do that really was to tell stories, really, you know. And when I meet with people doing a one-to-one consultation, it's quite often, if I think a story's appropriate, let me tell you the one about, you know. So that's what I did in the book, really. But funny enough, a lot of things that people say about your book, and I'd love to think it was the same about mine, is that it, you know, it's the make them laugh, make them cry thing.

You know, there's some proper emotion in there, you know. That makes a good book. Yeah. Yeah, and as long as you do it in the right place where they're meant to be laughing and crying. You don't want them to be in hysterics at the sad bits. No, that's true. I'm really sad that we didn't get to see you, but we're both responsible. And Raymond would love to meet you at some point.

I think you'd really like him, Graham, except he's quite stubborn and set in his ways. Is that common with shih Tzu's? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They are. They're lovely little companion dogs. shih Tzu's. But yeah, they do have that.

Everybody describes it as this slightly regal way about them. There's some histories of that, of course. But yeah, you say stubborn. You were saying before about he's a bit I can't remember what the word you said was, and I was thinking kind of haughty

and aloof. That's a good word for a shih Tzu, you know. So they do have that about them, you know. But then you say, if you love a shih Tzu, that's why, isn't it? So you don't want a dog who's a push over all the time. You want a bit of spirit, do you? I believe you find the right dog for you, you know. And I think possibly, Raymond, if a big, if someone approaches him

and they're sort of overpouring him and being, if there's over-exuberance in his face, you know what Raymond does, Graham? He turns the other cheek and looks skyward. So you're trying to argue, well. What's the standout quality, Graham, that humans can learn from dogs? I always say that nobody ever sent a dog on a mindfulness course and it's a sort of slightly jockey thing I think it's pretty obvious

but the fact is they're really good at here and now you know it's like I've got food, I've got a ball I've got a bed to lie down on I'm happy I'm not going to worry about later on and I'm not going to worry about the past so much you know and I think you know we hear it from so many different places don't we it's and at a time when we're in great change as we have been in the

last couple of years it really helps i think to ground yourself in that right now this moment i'm okay and there's food in the fridge i'm all right let's not worry about everything else too much and dogs i think are pretty good at that there's food in the fridge raymond oh no now he wants food graham now you've done it graham when i need to discipline ray that he does, Emily. When I'm sitting on the sofa, because I've had him up previously, he starts pouring the Ottoman and going, So first things first, you're from down south, you've got an Ottoman.

We got a stool. So, right, Em, here's what you do, right? So he's pouring at you, right? So what we're going to do is we're going to imagine a scenario where he's pouring at you, right? and then you tell him off and then he stops pawing, right? And then you're going to praise him for being a good boy, right? And it's going to sound like this. Raymond, no.

Oh, good boy, that's nice. See the difference? That's how the tone works. Dead easy, piece of cake. And don't call it an autumn. It's a stool. Well, Graham, I've loved talking to you. Thank you so much.

And please, can Ray and I come and meet you at some point? Well, what we'll do is, when the war's over, we'll go out for that walk properly. It was lovely to chat, but let's go for a dog walk. I actually feel so excited at the thought of it. Ray, we're going to meet Graham. Oh, that's nice. Say goodbye. Ray, can you say goodbye to Graham?

Graham, say goodbye to Ray. There you go. Bye bye, Ray, Ray. Goodbye. There you go. I'll tell you what. If he says goodbye, Graham, we'll both be on the telly. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that.

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