Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Heston Blumenthal

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

Emily and Ray go for a stroll with legendary chef Heston Blumenthal, around the village of Bray in Berkshire, the location of his world famous restaurant. They talk about Heston's childhood Christmas dinners, the meal that changed his life as a teenager, and his bulldog Harry.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh Ray, didn't do a poo on a grave, did he, Heston? Did he? Oh, right? Oh, I think he did. Hang on. Did he do a poo on a grave? Yeah, but think of the microbes. This week on Walking the Dog, I popped down to a little village in Berkshire to meet the man responsible for revolutionising British food, Heston Blumentop. Heston lives in France now, where he has a bulldog called Harry. Harry wasn't able to join him on this trip,

So we went for a stroll with my Shih Tzu Raymond, who greeted Heston by covering his face in licks. And Heston loved it, so I knew he was going to be our kind of guest. We chatted about his childhood, the meal that changed his life as a teenager, his discovery and adulthood that he had ADHD, and the personal sacrifices that he had to make whilst creating his Michelin-starred restaurant, The Fat Duck. Heston also gave me a great Christmas dinner tip, and yes, I will be stocking up on his waitrose range. it's not Christmas without Heston. And you should check out a BBC documentary about him

coming up on the 19th of December called Heston's Marvelous menu Back to the Nauties, where he revisits the early days of the fat duck, where the concept of his cuisine all started. Heston is as far from the idea of the temperamental chef as it's possible to be. He's driven and he's clearly a total perfectionist,

but he's incredibly sweet-natured and humble, and he has this kind of infectious curiosity about the world. But most importantly, he loves dogs, and he reinvented the British chip. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Heston. And if you do, please rate review and subscribe. Enough of me. Here's Heston. And let's go, Raymond. Yes.

So sorry, I wouldn't normally do this, but can we see if you get a picture? Yeah, of course, yeah, of course. You're one of my favourite chefs ever. Oh, of course. You've been to a fact duck, it was one of the best days of my life. Oh, bless, thank you. It was amazing. Yeah, of course you can.

I didn't pay that lady to say that, by the way. That was a genuine woman that came up and said that. I did ask the way to say, I was like, is he going to absolutely hate this? No, I'm going to be silly. I know that. To hear you saying that, put a big smile on my face. Yay.

It's lovely to meet you. Yeah, lovely to meet you. Thank you very much. See Christmas as well. Oh, yes. Happy Christmas. Have a good day. Bye.

Oh, it's like being out with Harry Styles. Do you get a lot of fans, Heston? Like selfies and... Because you're pretty recognisable. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what a lot is, really. I mean, but, I mean... Okay, shall I put Ray down? Shall I put him on his lead?

Yes. Okay, come on, right. You hold his lead, Heston. He's so cute. I should... I introduce the podcast at this point. I'm very excited because this man doesn't have a lot of time. He doesn't even live here,

and he's here pretty much for one day. And I couldn't be more excited that he's agreed to spend this time with me. I'm so pleased to see you again. Come on, Ray. Well, you may have worked out by now because I think he's got quite a distinctive voice as well. I'm with the one and only Heston Blumenthal.

And we're in Bray in Berkshire, which is very fitting because it's where it all started. Funny enough, so the fat duck's just behind us. This, see through here is the churchyard. And there's a church. This gable, arch gable, used to be, so the fat duck used to be called the ringers. because it was named after the bell ringers for the church.

Let's take him off the lead, Heston. Do you think we should, that'll be all right, Ray. Well, if you think so. Yeah, there weren't many cars down there. He's fine. I want to let his soul sing openly. So, yeah, it used to be called the ringers because it was the drinking hole for the bell ringers.

So the old fat duck that was the ringers was here. Oh, it's like an Elizabethan sort of gatehouse, it looks like. Yeah, it's beautiful. and we're going into a little park through Tudor Arch Worry's Tudor Little Luther Arch Litchgate Oh I love this It's 1448

Oh look It looks like the sort of place Where Henry VIII might have kept his mistresses What, in the graves Yeah Oh we're in the cemetery now Yeah Ray don't go to the toilet on any graves

Please don't Leave that to me So I'm so excited to see you And I'm only here briefly aren't you Because you're sort of here There and everywhere at the moment Yes I'm just got back from India I was there for three days.

Yeah. And was that food related? Yeah, I did a talk sandwich between the Prime Minister of India and Michael Douglas. No. Oh, and the chairman of Netflix. But it was a talk just about what I'm doing now and the fact that one of the main reasons that we're human beings and we've connected so much as a species

is because we can imagine things that don't exist. And that imagination, so you can imagine a building with a candy floss cloud tied to a licorice rope floating above the building. It's got helium in it and drones spinning around blowing vanilla seeds on it. Yeah. You can imagine it. Yeah. So that imagination allowed us to create what you call shared beliefs. I love you. This is why they call you Willie Wonka. Good morning, how are you? Yeah, fine. Thank you too.

Who are they, Heston? They look like they work for the church. I don't know if he's a vicar. I don't know. I don't know. if he looked, you had a nice, feeling-looking face. Well, if he's not a vicar, why was he carrying on a trolley, some items from the church? Yeah, with a plug, with an electrical cable coming out of it. They might be church thieves. Oh, yes, those famous people. Oh, Ray, didn't do a poo on a grave, did he, Heston?

Oh, right, oh, I think he did, hang on. Did he do a poo on a grave? Yeah, but think of the microbes. Did he do it? Yes, he did. Okay. In a new love for the podcast, my dog has just done poo. Ray. Can I just apologise to... Raymond? Raymond.

Do you know that person that's under the ground? Heston, should we apologise to the late Richard Littleton, who died in 1838, and his wife, Harriet Allen? But, I mean, in all seriousness, you know, our relationship with dogs... has been really beneficial for human beings because they go out and play in the mud and they bring bacteria in. I'll say they do. Apologies, Godspeed.

What pets did you have growing up? When I was a kid, we had a cat called Sheba, and he had a black cat. Another one called rhubarb. No dogs. A Dalmatian called Caesar. You had a Dalmatian? Yeah, but then...

Why did your parents go for Caesar and Sheba, cat for pet food names? Well the two cats we found I think they just ended up coming into the house and then they stayed there but my dad wanted a Dalmatian I think something to do with his charger and then I had a bulldog and then I had another bulldog and now you got Harry. I now got another

bulldog. We're not with your dog because your dog's in France where you spend most of your time or that's where you live and I want to know about your dog Heston so my dog's a bulldog called Harry yes and

Stephanie, my missus, called it Harry. And that's my third. The deal was, I don't, I love dogs, but with all the work I'm doing now, I don't want distraction. So I said, I'm not taking the dog for a walk. I'm not cleaning out the poo and the wee. You know, and if you have a dog, it's, it's, there's a responsibility. There's a lot of work, isn't it?

It's a lot of work. Anyway, he's very funny. But did Stephanie really want one? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, she did. And Shay, our daughter, she's two. They're like brother and sister.

So you imagine Shay's about, I don't know, her half foot, two and a half foot high. Yeah. Harry's about here, this wide. And then she... Right, come to Heston. Where's Heston? Come in.

Come here. Look at your eyes. Yeah, and she runs like, ah! And she goes, owie, owie, because she speaks, she speaks, well, she's going to speak two languages, which takes longer if you're speaking too, but she speaks half in English and half from French. Do you want this?

We? So she goes out and just jumps on him. She's French, isn't she? She's French. And bless her, she was very happy living in Barnes. That's where you were before? Yeah. And why did you and Stephanie decide to move to France?

It was me. She supported me. So several reasons. I'm going through a process of... Part of it is reverse engineering my life. We'll touch on this a bit later, but I've got ADHD. Fairly extreme ADHD. Exactly.

So I want to declutter. I think we have too many choices in the world. Oh, Heston's taking me down to the water. I love this. Ray, Ray, look, there's darks. There's my neighbours. Oh, this is beautiful. Oh, is that Michel Rune?

Yeah, that's the Waterside Inn. Oh, oh, that's his restaurant. I love it. I was going to say he's got very big windows. Everyone can see in. This is absolutely beautiful, Heston. Look at these. Oh, I don't like that big bird.

He's going to scoot way up. He looks a bit predatory. What is that bird, Heston? No, that one over there with the big wings. I don't like. He looks a bit hawky. Yeah, but I don't know. Don't worry, Ray, I've got you.

It could be a really big cormorant. Oh, okay. What, I've got this one coming? I love the way they land. Yeah. I don't know, it's like aeroplanes landing. Water is my, I'm going to spend, it's going to be the heart of everything I'm doing. That's your new thing. That's Heston's new passion.

Yes. We know what to do with it, but we don't know what it is. How come it? I'm going to pick way up, Heston, because there's. There's a truck coming. How come hydrogen and oxygen? So two of the lightest molecules, you stick them together and you get big, heavy water.

How does that work? Yeah. You see, this is what's interesting about you. You're so fascinated in the way things work and the sort of science behind it. Yeah. And I want to go back, actually, so when that all started.

And when Little Heston, who I imagine was very cute. I'm so strong. Snottie little kid, I'm not. Well, weirdly, you've got such a sort of iconic look. I imagine you having those glasses. On my 40th birthday, my eyesore it was really good until I put it down to all the hours in the kitchen. My 40th birthday was doing the ordering after service and thought, my eyes are wanting to go to seat, but I'm not tired. Yeah.

So then I had glasses from then. Oh, really? So it's only a late, so tell me, so Minnie Heston, little Heston, he's grown up in, well, it was a way. London you originally lived in. I was born in Shepherd's Bush, the hospital that's not there anymore, North Pole Road. Yeah. I grew up near Paddington and went to school off the edge of road. Actually, one of my nose days...

Do you remember the G7 summit meeting in Glen Eagles when Jacques Chirac said Britain has the worst food in Europe second to Finland? Which I took quite an offence to actually. However, when I grew up in London in the 70s, born in 60s, born in 66, he was probably right because you could, you're going to get olive off from the chemist because you poured them into your ears when they were blocked. And there's only one type of pasta you could buy in the supermarket and then that dried spaghetti in the blue wrapper.

So I grew up, we're going to call for our holidays. I never knew what an oyster looked like. I'd never been to a Mission Side restaurant before. My parents never had. What did your dad do as a job? Yeah, leasing, like photocopying leasing company. And did your mum work? She worked, she did some work here in office in Oxford Street.

She did some work there because I remember her dragging us into the office. Actually, my first food memory, the big one I can remember was my grand. Every Saturday morning, you used to take my sister and I, Church Street Market. And it was like step-turned son, people sending junk off the back of a horse-drawn cart. And the last thing you want to do when you're seven years old or six years old is that. But on the way back, we went past this Art Deco Sicilian ice cream parlor called the Regent's snack bar. Yeah. And it had a big plastic ice cream cone on the top of it.

And I got a tub of ice cream. And said to my sister, brown paper bag, the wooden spoon. We couldn't eat it until we got home. And the walk was only about six, seven, eight minutes, but it felt like a day. Yeah. And with hindsight, that was my first thing of working for a war. So I envanging that ice cream. much and then

fast forward then to say 15 as I said I hadn't seen an oyster I didn't know an ice look like no mission inside restaurants my dad was your mom a good cook or was she yeah I mean it was it was it was sort of like as much as anyone could have been in the 17th yeah yeah absolutely cordon blur

is it those magazines was it called on blur it was called it was called on blur it was called the galloping gourmet oh I used to love it Greg Kerr yeah and he ran down a hoon through a hula hoop and then bring an old person out on the stage and eat with them And my mum, it was interesting because my dad was quite sort of middle class. And he worked in the TV and he had all these sort of friends like Joan Bakewell. And my mum wasn't from that kind of background.

And I can remember her, she turned out to be a brilliant cook, but she taught herself through those cordom-blur books and the Galloping Gorman. It was like, right, this is what these people eat. They put bay leaves and things and they have cock over that, you know. Yes. And I still remember my grand having a hostess trolley. Electric, I can't remember Was that your dad's mum?

My dad's mum. Your dad is Jewish. My dad's Jewish. My mom... Did she convert? Well, she said she converted. So my... Did she just come home one day and say, I'm Jewish?

You're like, Mom, I think there's a bit more asthma involved. I've never really quizzed her on it, to be honest. So my uncle traced on my mom's side of the family back to where in Hertfordshire in 1400. My dad's side's a bit... I need, it's one of those things I want to do. I want to find out more. There was a Belgian Congo connection and a Latvia connection and my grand was actually from Cambridge.

Did you, do you feel Jewish? No, I feel me. Yeah. I think, I had my kids, against my grand wishes and my mum, you understand, I had them born of no religion. Did you? Because I thought if they, I believe in the belief of religion,

but I don't believe. believe in religion. There's one word in the English language that I think applies to everything in this universe and any other universe. Yeah. Potential. Yeah. Everything has potential. So religion has potential to be really beneficial and potential to be damaging. Mobile phones have potential to be. So you didn't want to kind of impose anything? No, I wanted them to be able to choose. Yeah. And did you, would you, were you close as a family? You were, uh, um, yeah, We'll be close. Were you sort of an emotional family?

Would there be big, would you sort of... My mum and dad used to fight a lot. I used to say, I grew up... I used to say I grew up in the war. The war between my parents. I remember one Christmas. Oh yeah, my dad, my dad's mom and my mum did not like each other. Really?

So Christmas Day. My grand's coming out from London. We were living in Buckinghamshire. Yeah. My mum's done the Christmas lunch. Vegger's ready. my grand goes, I've done the veg. So my dad, riddled with you anyway, generally.

Think, shit, what am I going to say? He said, well, Celia's done the, she said, that's my mum, has she done the lunch? She said, well, I've done all the veggies already. So he said, well, bring them down and we'll have a look at them. It was like a NATO negotiating thing after that. She wasn't coming. Anyway, we sat around the Christmas table in silence.

My mum had a dressing gown on three Christmas hats packed up, cigarette in her mouth, my dad's sitting there and she said, she was a potato you fat bastard. That was a memorable Christmas lunch. And did they stay together then? Or did they divorce? No, they stayed together. People did, didn't they?

They did, they just stayed together and In misery. I don't, I think, I kind of It wasn't an option to not be together. Do you know what to mean? I don't think it was, but it was almost a Less of an option. Just buried it.

My mum didn't bury it. She's quite vocal. Was she? Yeah. Who was the disciplinarian? Because I always get the sense, you know, you have this huge sense of self-discipline. And do you think, to a certain degree, I think, you know, we are born with those,

but also we are influenced by our environment. And did you get that instilled? If you had one parent who was the rulemaker, do you think it was your dad or your mom? They were different. So I'd get quite a lot of insults from my mum. I'll get less insults for my dad. What would your mum say? Idiot, you know, useless and da-da-da, stuff like that.

So your mum was more kind of come on. It's not, I remember you saying once, which I found really interesting, was that thing of them not being sort of, oh my God, that's amazing, well done, or... No, no. But I think also in those days, I remember there was a marketing campaign

in the, I can't remember how long, go it was before I was born. Do you remember this? You hear about this. It told you told parents, don't tell your kids you love them and don't give them affection because otherwise it was kind of stiff up a lip.

That's now proven to be Did they really advise people to do? Yeah, there was a campaign. I can't remember. Really? Yes, I suppose it was just that idea that you needed to grow up to be a strong individual and... Yeah. So going back to

Going back to the Jacksoner story, worst food in in Europe second to Finland. Yeah. Yeah, he was probably right. But that was two weeks before

London and Paris fought out for the Olympics. Yeah. After he made that statement, the two Finnish representatives withdrew their votes from Paris and gave them to London. And I had lunch a couple of years.

years ago with Seb, Lord Coe, and we just happened to be on holiday the same place together. So we had lunch and I said to him, look, I've said this a few times that, you know, we got our food because they made this comment about British food and Finnish food and the Finnish representatives decided stuff that Paris, we're going to London because we said about our food. Yeah. I said, is that true? He said, yes. He said it wasn't, it was like the last straw that broke the camels back.

Right. So I argue the French that we got the Olympics because of our food. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, it's true. But then, so when one year, my dad had, he did some deal on photocopies that got a bit of money. And we went to France. First time I'd been abroad. And was that unusual for you? Like, were you an affluent family?

No. No. We weren't poor. Yeah. We went to France. And were you excited? I don't remember being excited. I don't remember.

You don't remember that part of it, yeah. We went, they had read about this three Michelinistad restaurant in Provence called the Beaumannier. Yeah. And we've got this documentary coming out next week and you'll see it on there if you watch the show. I sat with my sister, my parents, bare mind none of us had ever, didn't even, well, had never been to a Michelinstein restaurant before. Yeah. So here we are sitting at the foot of this bauxite cliff in this wonderful valley.

as the sun was sitting the noise I remember the crunch of the waiting star's feet on the gravel this intoxicating smell of lavender the noise of the crickets the sun goes down the rock gets lit up there's a sommelier with his hand of our moustache and a big leather apron

cheese chalet the troy the size of a chariot pouring sauces into souffles carving legs and lamb at the table glasses when you're small and everything's things much bigger and I'll just a moment I fell down a multi-sensory rabbit hole into Wonderland and I'm living 15 minutes from that restaurant. Now in France.

I've come back to there and... Isn't it amazing? It's another reason. It's where Van Gogh lived, 12 minutes away. Because the sunlight is, along with some in the Himalayas, the strongest recorded in the world. Yeah. The mistral wind blows all the pollen away.

So the light is incredible. And all the water gets filtered through this. limestone rocks it's very fertile soil and the Romans built aqueducts and viaducts so I'm setting up it's actually just about done my laboratory to study water I love it the Heston has his laboratory you are you're the professor

the food professor I've got a synthetic tongue coming Of course you have I have no one in my mouth Do you Looking back at that which was extraordinary Was that the moment then Did you experience this food?

And, you know, in the film of your life, obviously that's how I'd start the film. Yes, because of the contrast, if I'd have grown up with, you know, the Waterside Inn and three Michigan star, Michigan-star restaurants, the setting would have still had the impact, but it wouldn't have had the same impact. But I didn't know that existed. Yeah. It's like another world. And then it got under my skin and in my blood. So were you, were you academic at that point?

Were you not? What were you like at school? Were you... Could try harder. Really? Yeah. I think... Distracted people easily? Yes.

Could try harder as a big... I think a school report has, in fact, got nothing to do with the child. It's a conversation between the school and the parents. So why does a child have to bring the document home? Mine went on top of the cupboard a couple of times. Well, it's part of shame, I think. I think there is part of wanting to shame the child,

which again is a Victorian attitude. Yes. Education's killing creativity. And did you feel, were you popular, Heston? Were you the guy? You know, I also have this thing at school that you have the pretty team. And my thing was, I was never quite good enough for the pretty team, but I clung on by my fingertips, and they didn't quite accept me.

But, and I regret that now. So I just wondered, were you? I think I was quite popular at school. Were you? Were you sporty? Yeah, yes, from about fifth, I mean, I started playing cricket when I was about 12, but then from 14 I started martial arts and I did that for

till I was 28 Were you successful with the ladies? No I don't believe that I think you were Do you know I've never chatted somebody up in my life I've been too scared of somebody telling me to bugger off

I think they call it fear of rejection Well you're quite shy really Yeah maybe I've got issues I've never never chatted So how does it work what you just kind of say Well I haven't had that many girlfriends No, that's true, because you married quite young. I married young.

I think I've been on my own maybe for three months. A three-month chunk of my life, that's about it. So you're quite shy, do you think? I'm less shy now. I was. I was pretty shy. Do you think success forces you to be more of an extrovert in a way? I don't know if it's necessarily success

because it depends how you measure success. And I know that every time I won an award, if you look at my CV, it's just ridiculous. I think the amount of national and stars you have is probably... And all the trophies and the OBE and the, you know, all of this stuff, there's this moment of elation and then it's not good enough. I never thought I was good enough. Did you?

Yeah. And I think it's more only recently that I've got more, become a sister as a bit sort of Buddhist and cheesy, but more loving of myself. Yeah. More kind to myself. Instead of beating myself up, actually giving myself myself. a pat on the head. I think it actually,

smelling the roses, which I never did. And when you started, you know, because talking about being hard on yourself, I mean, when you made the decision,

I know after you had this experience and you spent a few years doing sort of, going from job to job, doing sort of a bit David Brent officey jobs in a way, it sounds like.

And then when did you think, right, that's it, I'm going to, I wanted to be a show. Well, I wanted to be a shit. I wanted to cook

from that moment at the Beaumannette. I did a week with Raymond, who I love at the memoir. Raymond isn't my dog, it's Raymond Blanc. Raymond Blanc, sorry. When I was in 1984, I think, and he offered me a position as a commie chef, and I decided I didn't want to do it. I wanted to go and make some money to get my own restaurant

and follow the path of self-educate. I was teaching myself and being able to question stuff without telling me people telling me what to do. Sounds like it had a big master plan, but it wasn't at all like that. And then I decided after a few years, actually I'm not driven by money. Really? So we had a house in Marlowe, sold it.

Pouss in Mollow, cottage in Beactersville. And were you married by then? Yeah. Yeah. I moved in with my parents and then bought the fat duck. So did you have a young family already by that point? Yeah, I had Jack, my son, who's now here in Bray. He's got his degree in culinary arts.

Oh, he's going into the family business? He's been cooking. He's been cooking for. a few years now. How lovely. Are you harder on him than everyone else? Not harder on him but you... Yes. Yeah.

You don't want to give him a free pass as what I'm saying. And also I did tell him, if he wants to do this I said, he's Jack. I said, I'm going to push you away. I'm not encouraging to come in and I'm going to push you away. And you're going to have to want to show me that you wanted that much. I'm going to keep pushing away. I'm going to keep saying no. Choose another job. Do something else. Yeah.

Push you away. Push you away. Push you away. away and he kept and then you know he's done yeah and he's done I mean as I said it's six seven years he's been cooking now and he loves it because I know it's it's it's difficult because when he grows up or he grew up he's in the bar with his mates they don't say this is Jack they said you know who's dad this is and that's that's quite a difficult have you do you speak to him about how to deal with that or we've spoken a lot yeah we're close yeah well that's interesting I'm pleased to hear that because I know you

you've said in the past and when you and your ex-wife you were setting up the business, I know for you that was, you were getting 15 hours sleep famously a week. And you were sleeping upstairs and there were so many sacrifices you had to make. Yes. And I know you were really honest, which I respected, because people tend to present this image of, oh yes, and we had the family and you said, no, it was hard. I had to make sacrifices with my kids and I didn't get to spend the time with them. Yeah, affected my marriage, affected my marriage, affected my...

With my children, I'm like, you know, I don't actually believe in luck, but I've got a, I've got a wonderful relationship now with my son and my two daughters, Jesse and Joy. Mm-hmm. So. Three Jays, I like that. Yeah, my mom's not. Didn't she why? I love your mom. She's a character.

She's like, what happens when the post comes to them? What? That was the biggest, but it was, it was, it was, it was. It was more of a case of just an opportunity just to go, oh, please. That was one of her, that was one of her, it is one of her punchlose. That was my favourite. She said, that's not a book. It's only 230,000 words that took me eight years, seven years to write.

I mean, how much more do you have to do? An OBE, well, it's not a night turn. I think she is softening and I think she's on the verge of starting to be able to laugh about it which is which is a good thing and I think that was probably like you say you know a product of her generation to a degree as well you know spare the rod spoil the child all that stuff you know parents you got to parents love their kids in the only the way they know how to yeah you know and there's lots of different ways to express that.

And we developed so many defence mechanisms in childhood that we quite often carry those through to adulthood. We brought all this passion and time and perfectionism and work ethic into the fact that it became a huge success. I mean, you know, it wasn't, was it an overnight success in terms of you'd done all the work, but people were suddenly talking about it. Say the TV stuff that I've done.

Yeah. I said no to TV for quite a long time. Did you why? Because I was too focused, it's a bit like now. Now I've been away. I said no to TV for the last couple of years. But because I've been focusing on this whole thing of evolution and water and the importance about our relationship with food.

Yeah. That now there's a, I've got a more clear plan. And it just so happened that we've got this, you know, this on a couple of days' time, this BBC show. Taking the restaurant back to 2001, which is the first time we put a tasting menu on. And I had to grab the old, get the old team back. God, what was that like? It was amazing.

When you spend that many hours, because when I was doing the 120 hours a week, yeah, they were also clocking in hours like that. But you can see, I mean, Heston, I've been lucky enough to eat at the Fat Dark several times. And when we walked up, my producer said, oh, wow, what's it like? And I said, it's not really even just about the food. And that sounds pretentious, but you tell someone, but I said it's an experience, it's nothing you'll ever... When we reopened, with the storytelling and stuff, and personalisation,

getting that, I wanted to call it, I wanted to change the name. And I wanted to call it a question. And that question was, if the fat duck isn't in a restaurant, what is it? I love that. And then everyone thought I was mad, so they sort of shut me up. Because to me, and again, sorry, if you don't, the pretension alert, But I, genuinely, it really reminds me your attitude towards food and your whole ethos of that fruit, remembrance of things past.

If people aren't familiar with it, there's a thing called the Madeleine episode where this boy eats this Madeleine cake. And actually Heston has done his own Madeleine cakes. Which is great, look at the recipe online. But it's this idea that he eats this piece of food and it's an involuntary memory because it takes him back to his past. It's exactly the same. Have you seen Ratatouille? Yes, yes. The final scene when the cynical food, when the cynical food, tired food critic, has a spoonful of Ratatoui, same thing.

And next minute, instantly he's sitting in the chair in the kitchen with his mum with swinging his legs under the chair. You see, this is why Heston is so successful and popular because he's able to make a reference that is much clearer than mine. I'm going on about... No, yours is much more intellectual. No, it's not. It's just that, but you're absolutely right, it's true.

It's an interesting... But food has this ability to be able to do that, and in fact, this comes back to the importance of emotion. And you know, there's a lot of research. I'll just come back from the world, Water Congress, as you do. And water, and the cells are water, they carry memory. Yeah. Carry emotion.

Carry data. And as our body is 60 to 90% water, if you think about an emotion is energy in motion, it's a vibration. Yes. Everything vibrates. So if you drink water and you think if I don't drink my luter water a day,

I'm going to get sick, you're drinking water with unaware anxiety. If you drink the water and give it gratitude, I think, God, I love this. And just drink when you want to drink and have a cup of a sip gloves more. Yeah. Yeah. And that's about attitude and again, it's a positive attitude.

So it's... Yes. But you've managed to... It's interesting because I see now since the business has grown and the fat duck became, you know, the waiting list. How long is the waiting list? Uh, I don't know now. It was... Oh, there's some big...

Oh, there's some big dogs coming, Heston. Let's avoid the big... Go on. Let's get it right out of the way. You don't know how long the waiting list is, but it's... Well, it was three months. Wow. Um, but we only do 35.

people. Yeah. And we have nearly 80 staff. It's two staff for, it's over two, just over two staff per customer, which is, which is a lot of chefs. When they become as famous and decorated as you, you know, I'm not going to mention any names, but you get the sense that the sort of active running of the kitchen side of it, it starts to get, it gets a bit parked and they become a brand, you know, and they're working all the time. Whereas I really get the sense with you that you're, people you know you're often pottering in and out you're very present aren't you

yes and and the stuff now even though it's in France we're working on this connection between France and England the water so let's say you're going to make some suits from on the pubs we'll develop the recipes they could do that here but we've been looking at restructuring the water by changing the pH

so you'll be very involved in that yeah and that would be the water that will go into the various suits right so the two teams will work together and have exchanges basically. Wow. So you're, okay, well, I want to talk to you about Waitrose and Christmas, because you are basically Christmas, aren't you?

Let's be honest. Ho, ho, ho, ho. Do you do Christmas? What will you do? Will you do it in France with your little girl? No, I'm actually, we're going to have a holiday. First time I'm two years. I'm going to go, we're going away for.

Who's got the dog? Ah, Karin, who's... Okay. Does she look after things? Okay, good. She looks after him, but she's a friend of ours. She's got the... She's got the dog. Yeah. And then, so it'll be the three of us going to... We're going to skiing.

And do you, Kirk? No. Chris, I used to. Did you? But no, but we're staying in a hotel. Yeah, but isn't it hard for chefs? They must shit themselves when you come in. Ah, yeah, that's... The problem is, and I did...

did the same thing myself. The problem is, so I believe that we should eat too much food. Yeah. And I don't think that anyone in the world should actually go starving. Yes. With the amount of food waste is, something like 30 to 50% of all food produced gets thrown away. Yeah. Only because sell by dates and people are scared about being sued and stuff like that. But I don't suggest to tell people, eat less food, because that's just mental.

No, of course. If we could spend a little bit more time valuing more mouthfuls, Yes. Being more, I don't want to use the word mindful. No, no, no, but being more conscious of it. Yeah. And just connecting with, you know, what does it smell like? What does it feel like?

What is it's it? So what we're saying is, don't stuff yourself at Christmas. But if you are going to stuff yourself, you should get Heston's food from waitress. From waitress. Oh, bless you, yes. Your head of. James. He calls himself James.

He's very self-facing. James is looking at me there saying, thank you, Emily. But tell me, so do what, do chefs go white? when you come into their restaurant. Do a restaurant, they're lovely, but what tends to happen is in the process of me trying to explain, look, just because if I don't eat all the plate,

it doesn't mean you like it. No, you could have one spoonful, it would be fantastic. And they've already served you the food anyway. So I think a lot of us, including me in the past massively, we guilt eat. Yes, we do. And because we don't want to offend the other person.

But in the process, we're just putting more food than we need to put into a body. Well, don't you like Heston to eat? There must be things you don't like. I adore the smell of licorice. But you don't like to taste? I don't like, it's too sweet for me. Otherwise, that's...

But there's what's interesting about the fat duck because when I've been in there, I went in with prejudices about food I didn't like, snail porridge at the time and all this stuff. And actually, because you just give yourself over to the entire experience. That's the important thing actually is. You sort of just say,

I'm just going to eat anything that's put in front of you. front of me and otherwise it's a bit go big or go home yes oh look at ray I think he really likes her Heston I need to ask you because I know we haven't got much time with you so I've got a couple of things I need to ask firstly I want to ask about the ADHD because we both have that yes I was diagnosed later in life and so were you it was a friend of yours who was a psychiatrist is that right my son's friend's dad and what did you say dinner and we were talking. He said, do you know, I think you might have ADHD?

I said, how can I have ADHD? How can I focus so much on this subject? He said, that's classic ADHD. If you're interested in something, you hyperfocus. Otherwise, you go all over the show. Okay. And I've had a head that's sensitive to temperature. So I remember doing Chris Evans radio show once.

And I went on to talk about the GCSE that we launched for food and nutrition and the food for Tim Peek, the British Astronaut. Anyway, I'm in the green room, and the class of bands, I think Coldplay were there, and it was packed, so it made it warmer. It was so hot. And Chris walked past, he went, hello, sweaty, Hesty. It's my head, my head sweats. But the rest of my body doesn't. And I said, it must be 27 and a half degrees in here, which was probably quite a random, you know, specific number.

Anyway, I'd go into the studio, it's packed, so it doesn't mention the GCSE, or the, or the, or Tim Peake. He said, right, tell us about your heads, a sweaty head, shty. And I said, I can tell the temperature. When I fly to Australia, I know the temperature on the main airlines that go there, because if it gets over 20 degrees, I can't sleep. And, or 20, particularly 22.

So, BA 22, Qantas 23, Singapore, 25 and, and Emirates 26. Yeah. And he said, Chris said, so what's the temperature in this room now? And you knew. I said,

I think it was about 22. It's now about 19.5. And they'd put a thermometer the other side of the glass and it was 19.5. So for like a week after, I got in a few cabs and the,

all right, what temperature is it in now? And then do you think in relation to your ADD then? So I'm saying that after that when I was looking at evolution. Yeah. and looking at imagination and the connection between the brain and the gut and all this kind of stuff.

The brain is both a muscle and a muscle and an organ. It's 2% of our body weight, but it takes up 20% of our blood and 60% of our glucose, which is huge. So if you go to the gym and pump iron or go right, you get hot, those muscles, you get blood into the muscles. So I thought, I wonder if my, I started walking around with a thermometer, if my, I've got a really busy head. but I don't know how busy anyone else's head is. Yeah, because you don't know what's average. And actually, you know what's interesting? Someone compared it to me, it really made sense.

I always used to get called, because you find coping mechanisms when you're a bit other. And I used to, every office I worked in, I'd be told, shut up, stop talking. I couldn't stop talking. It's racing thoughts. There was an impatience. It's like, why don't, doesn't your brain do this? ADHD is, at its essence is an issue of time. Yeah.

Our relationship with time. and also you get that thing since I don't know about you but since I found out I'm much more on time I was late I'm not I'm always still late it's a real problem for me

I know I hate it but I do explain to my friends but people automatically think you just sit in the chair looking at a clock I don't need to go out but no no you run upstairs to get something you come downstairs with a handful

armfuls of stuff like a watch you lost six months six months before and you forgot what you were up there for in the first place and you still end up going out into the car with one shoe in your hand I think that was my morning he's just described, which is why, but that's what's so difficult is that it does

represent shame as well, because I think someone, the psychiatrists saying to me, you've had a lifetime of sort of covering it up because you've got odd about the fact that you couldn't be on time, you needed help sort of just admin, it just all gets on top of you. This is part of the reason and again moving to France. Yeah, distraction. Right. You can do this, do this. And you get that a lot.

Yeah, I can, so if, when everything is going well, I can make connections that other people can't seem to make, but you only need to throw me a little kerb ball and flipping chaos. How are you with diaries and calendars? How do you think I am, Weston? That's terrible. Lesson, I have to say to people as well, because I say, why didn't you reply to my text or email? And I say, because if I reply to that, you'll say one word, I'll start Googling it and go down

what I call the ADHD rabbit hole. So if I watch a film, this is honestly what I do, I'll see an actor, I'll start Googling him, then I'll be on to another page, and I'll be thinking, it's three in the morning and I haven't even ended up watching them because that's that hyper-focused thing where if you focus it on the wrong thing you're screwed you've got to yeah you've got to make sure and actually how about this the further packing right oh packing I put off going on holiday because I hate it so much do you hate it last minute and the longer distance the further you got to travel from where you're standing to the exit of your house you go you walk past random stuff and go oh I might be

needing that and then you just pack this bag of completely disconnected things that are pointless and charger cables. I'm not letting you look at my, I am, you're the only person that can see my car because you'll see, I also have this fear that I have things like I went on holiday with Jane and Jonathan our mutual friends of Rosses and I was going, she said, oh, why were you late? I said, because I had to get some extra things and she went, a waistcoat. Honestly, Heston, I'd got into my head. I had to bring the waistcoat. I was going on a holiday or a hot country.

Jessica. Okay, here's another. Have you left things on the security thing through the airport? Do you know, I went to the last of Australia. I go through security. I get to the beginning of the, you know, the galley that goes to the plane. Yeah. The woman said, now, have you got your laptop, your iPad, your telephone?

The last two remembers, the last time I was there, I took, I had a laptop, an iPad, a telephone and maybe even a Kindle, which I didn't need. And I took it all out. And then I just shut my bag and walked off. And I left them all there. I literally have phone calls every week saying, excuse me, you left your card in the reader.

Things like that. Yeah, do you do that? Yeah, the cash machine. Walk off and think, well, I don't know. You're going to have to be my ADD friend. We can share a tale of shame. I want to ask as well, because I know your dad passed away, Heston,

and I lost my parents. That must have been tough. That was around the time you had that shit year. It was in the middle of the shit year, actually. Yeah, yeah. And very much a big part of it. Yeah. That was it out now.

Did you feel at peace with him? I feel more at peace now. You know what I did? And I don't know where this came from. I told him I loved him and he told me he loved me. And that was I realised the first time he said it. That's the first time. But I only realised it when he said it back.

Then what I did. Come here because I can't hear. Then what I did was... Can we just give way a quick one out here? What I did... That's so lovely, Hester. What I did this, I don't know. I asked him and he was a hospital.

I knew he didn't have long. And I said, how do you want, do you want, bury or cremation? Did you say that to him? Are you never saying that? No, it just came out. I said, is there any people you really want there and any people you don't want there? Do you want music? Any tunes? What emotions do you want people to have? Because I'm going to do the reading. Do you want flowers? I just ran through this list and asked him. And I was really pleased I did it. Really pleased I did it. But I don't know where there, no idea where that came from.

I don't know how, but it's interesting that. I feel that because my dad was sort of an absent dad and I had issues with him. Did you, did you, did you, how did you, do you have regrets? I do, but you know what, I really feel, and it's interesting, I know you're a big believer in this, that as soon as I learnt to start trying, I don't always manage it, but that thing of taking responsibility for stuff, I think I was able to understand why my dad was like he was.

Because the initial thing is either blame, or thinking that they don't love you. Exactly. That's a natural thing to think. But that's, if you can, and this is easy, much easier said than done. If you can realise that that's a feeling, it's your feeling.

It might be real or not, but it's your feeling. Yeah. But it's not easy. You can't just change it. People say, don't worry. That never bloody works. But also, I would say as well, you know, I can relate,

let's say I know you, and I relate, well, things didn't work out for you in your relationship, but you've still got three kids you love. Yes. So it's difficult to apply that to your own parents because we don't see them, we don't have the empathy that we would have for friends, is what I'm saying. Yes.

And as we said before, you know, culture has changed through generations. Yes. What's considered healthy, I mean, look at it now. One health fad, where we get completely replaced by the opposite two years later. Yeah. So, you know, human beings, want and need to love and be loved.

And the sense of touch is really, really, really important. Are you sort of affectionate with your daughter? Like, are you a huggy dad? You strike me as that, because you were with my dog, Ray. Yes. You'd lick your face. I needed some bacteria. Are you quite a sort of huggy, affectionate person?

Yes, I didn't get that when I was growing up. Did you know what? No, but I didn't get, I mean, it was only, you know, because that's my, you know, my, my, my, my, my, uh, your mom said, that's not a very good hug. And my whole idea of a hug was like this. It was like a robot. Slapp on the back. So, but that's, you know, that's the way that they. Yeah. And you evolve and you learn from that and then yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't. I know, and actually also, you know, I, one of the things with my, with shame, my youngest, is I want to, I, I, I miss. out in um because of the fat duck you know I missed out on big chunks of fatherhood and because

of the way that whatever i was chasing the way that i was at the time and so through learning with with with with with with with with shay i can also become and and communication that i've got now with my kids you know i can continue to to to become the best dad that i can for them yeah and so we can't change an action yes but we can change our emotional association with that action Yes, it's so true. That's a really good... And do you think, in terms of how you are as a boss, you know, people have this idea of chefs, don't they?

And you're at the top of your business. So, you know, I always ask people this question. Yeah. It's a positive and a negative. Yeah. Because you don't get through life without paying tax. What do you most fear people saying about you when you leave the room? And what do you most hope they would say about you?

Well, I read this book recently. It's a great book. and it's called the courage to be disliked. And I realized I spent my life being a people, Peter. So I didn't want, it's not in the case of, I wanted everyone to like me. It's the thought if somebody doesn't like you. What this book says is there's a philosopher in an Austrian philosopher called Adler,

late 1800s, and he had a thing called the separation of tasks. Now, he wasn't talking about physical tasks, like sweeping the floor or washing your car going to work. He was talking about emotional tasks. If you think that somebody doesn't like you, it's not your task to make them like you. It's your task to take responsibility, not blame, responsibility for your own emotion.

Outside of work, I just wanted everyone to love me. Did you? Yeah, but I was also, I was abusing myself. Yeah. Because it was a white lie. I was editing out my full picture. I also didn't want them to think less of me. Yeah.

Well, it's like the ADD thing, going back to that. Yes. What I would do is think, I'm not going to, you sort of end up putting on an act as well, pretending you want everything under control because you don't want to appear flawed. Well, you know, there's a song, my dad used to listen to it, and I only heard it recently, because where I live now is Van Gogh territory.

So you remember Starry, Starry Night? Yeah, yeah. And it's all about Van Gogh, not being, Don McLean. Not being understood. Because he changed the world of painting. No one understood him. And I think that frustration, he had no money, so one painting in his life

he couldn't afford his own paints, etc. Anyway, along with that, I saw another Domiclean song that my dad used to listen to called And I Love You So. Now, if you listen to it, thinking he's talking about somebody else, it's one thing.

Listen to it, thinking, talking about yourself. And he says, people ask me how I'm still here, and I tell him I don't know. And then, he said, then I realized how lonely life can be. So you can have friends, so-called friends and people around you. Yeah. But you can be

incredibly lonely and I think that's, I think that's what I, that's what I was because if you liking yourself and it's that thing people always say that when you agree to something or do something because you want to be liked, yeah. In that moment, you feel that person likes me, but you've got to go home with yourself and then you dislike yourself. Yes, and then your life, you're not in control of your life. Yeah. So, but. But, for, you feel, that person likes me, but you've got to go home with yourself and then you're, you're not in control of your life. Yeah. So, but funny enough, for some reason, and maybe this is another positive thing with work, with the restaurants and my work. Yeah. In the kitchen, I wouldn't have the guilt issues because I wouldn't, the case of thinking someone's done this

work and just tell, are you telling them it's, you have to tell, if they've done a good job, tell them it's good, if it's wrong, you've got to tell them it's not good enough. It's not good enough we can't serve it, it's wrong. Whereas outside, oh my God, I could I like to put the phone down to a tonic cheese in carers woman. It wasn't one upset her. It was, it was like, are you really? Yeah, because you don't seem to have the traditional chef's temper.

Do you have a temper? No, I used to. I used to. I was a fighter. Yeah. And I, but not now. Not now. In the kitchen, I haven't raised my voice in the kitchen.

for at least 15 years, I'll say. That's good. We'll go back and check. I'll have a word with them. You know, it was when I took responsibility. Yeah. I realised, if someone keeps making a mistake in the kitchen, I'm the boss.

It's my responsibility either. They're not the right person for the job. My responsibility. I'm expecting too much for them, my responsibility. Or they've not been trained enough. My responsibility. And if you take, it's really, if you take responsibility for everything,

in a funny way, you think it wouldn't, if you start to free yourself up more. Well, it works with relationships, it works with everything. And I want to ask you, because we're coming to an end now, and I want to ask you about Christmas, because obviously Heston basically is Christmas. Yes. What do you, because I get your bits from Waitrose.

Yes. I love my Heston bits. Is there anything you particularly recommend? Give us your Heston Christmas tip, please. What do you think people should do like this way? Yeah. Do not do too much. Okay.

Less is more because first, people say, right, I've got 28 people for Christmas lunch. Oh my God. Well then... Yeah. Either you want 28 people, great. Okay. Or you don't... This is coming from people pizza.

Don't invite 28 people for lunch. The key thing, everything can be done before. The turkey or the goose or whatever is, roast it before let it rest for one hour. for one hour, it's much better for it. The green veg can be cooked before and set aside with the butter in the pan and sips, saw and pepper and whatever you put in. The carrot's going to be done. Everything has to wait for the potatoes.

So you do everything first and when you wait and when the potatoes are ready, just put everything back on the heat. So that should be your anchor for your timing. Do you know what I love? We've had this hour together and you've been very gentle sort of family, Heston. As soon as we started talking about food advice, I got a little scared. No, I didn't. But you've got very full of authority, and I can sense in a lovely way, that's your sort of comfort space where you're in charge. You became the general.

I suppose it's the area. But not in a bossy way. Listen, this is how busy Heston is. He's talking to me, and he's got to a driver waving at him because he's got to get in. Heston, I've loved our walk. Me too. It's so lovely to see you again. I know, I knew. And I don't care that they couldn't get me a cup of coffee at the fact that. You're going to have one in there now? Can I go into the high shelf? Can I say I know you? Can I say I know you? Are they giving me a discount? I really hope you enjoyed listening to that

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