Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Ivo Graham

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

This week Emily and Ray went for a walk with Ivo Graham and Irish Terrier, Fox. They chatted about Ivo’s origin story at Eton and then Oxford, his decision to be a stand-up and his childhood pet Labrador. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

No, fox! See, this is what I told you if fox gets excited. I have to become an authority figure and I'm not. Fox! Fox! Foxy! There we go. Good stuff. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll in West London's Leafy Barnes with fabulous comic Ivo Graham, and he brought along his friend's beautiful Irish Terrier, Fox, who he's a sort of canine godparent to. Now, Raymond can be a little bit wimpy around some dogs, but he was very very very. drawn to Fox as she had immaculate manners and bucket loads of charm, not unlike Ivo. We had a fabulous chat. We talked about Ivo's origin story at Eaton and then Oxford, which he's incredibly honest and funny about. We chatted about his decision to be a stand-up,

getting signed while he was still a student, and having his daughter relatively young. We also talked about the Graham family dog, and yes, of course it was a Labrador. Ivo is an absolutely lovely person to take a stroll with. He's very self-effacing and unassuming and hilarious. And he's also so well-mannered. It was only at the end of the walk, I realised he'd been too polite to ask if we could find a waistbin. So he was carrying poo around the entire time.

Now that's my kind of guest. I really hope you enjoy my walk with Ivo and Fox. Ivo's currently on tour with Game of Life, so do check out his comedy in person. It's absolutely brilliant. You can find out more at Ivo, or on Twitter at Ivo Graham. I'm going to stop talking now and hand over to the man himself.

Here's Ivo and Fox and Raymond. They're getting on famously. Why I'm following you. Okay. Well, let's go this way. Look. It's a delightful sight. Do you want to explain what the site is?

The site is your hairy beast of a dog Ray. of a dog Raymond, interacting very wholesomely and respectfully with an Irish terrier called Fox. They've actually now gone in different directions, but that's fine, as long as there's no animosity. Raymond! Raymond! Oh, surely not a poo, 30 seconds into the pod. Sorry, Ivo. That's absolutely fine. It was a long drive.

Good for me to prove my... This is great. I think not to edit your podcast for you, but surely not a poo 30 seconds into the podcast is you. That's you're in, isn't it? Also, so Fox is a lovely Irish Terrier who belongs to my friends Julian and Rose, who are very dear friends. They've been very good to me in the last couple of years, and I've spent a lot of that time living with them and living with Fox.

Hence the sort of camaraderie and trust. And obviously when you said, would you like to do the podcast? I thought, well, I've got to have a dog. And Julian and Rose have got two young children. So having someone to come and take the dog for a walk is always, I think, a sort of nice small favour. And the addition of the glamour of it being for a podcast, well, everyone's very excited. Oh, I'm so happy. has rather sort of aggressively economically given me rather than the full role of poo bags, just the one.

So to see that used up less than a minute into the walk, can't help, but on what you'd have to say felt only like a sort of starter poo. Well. Have you got poo bags, Emily? Have I got poo bags? Okay, well there we go. That's a panel show. I have to say, I mean, I love this. is Fox and your sort of your role I'm seeing as Fox's it's sort of godparent really isn't it?

It's a godfather to Julian and Rose's younger daughter which is a great honour. I'd have to say I know this is a very dog-oriented podcast but being godfather to a human is almost even better. But it was really a sort of almost squatters-right god-parenthship because I just lived there through so much of the pregnancy, that I think it would be very awkward if they'd passed me over. But Fox likewise. I mean, I did feel a bit nervous because I don't feel confident in my authority

over any creature, man or beast. And the thought that you'd turn up in your very relaxed fashion for this lovely, relaxed pod, and then I would, you know, something would go wrong with Fox, and I'd be unable to control her, or she'd have some minor tiff with Raymond. You know what? But no, it's all been fine, isn't it?

They seem to get on really well. I can see that... I think since we said that they were getting on really well, they've shown no interest in each other together. We're now out on the common and they're going about their business. But that's fine. But that's friendship for Raymond. He doesn't like people getting all up in his grill.

Yep. No, Fox is very good for that as well. Fox is just happy to be off the lead. and just out and about on a nice crisp November morning. And we should say what kind of dog fox is. She's an Irish terrier. Sorry, very aggressively answered there just because, again, I feel like if I don't say it, I'll forget it.

I'll reveal myself to be so ignorant. You're like someone on 24 hours in police custody who's remembered their story. That's exactly the vibe. keep the truths immediate and keep the lies simple and manageable don't tangle yourself in a web fox is an Irish terrier she's about three years old

I've lived with her for much of her life hence the rapport but equally if we were in a more stressful situation like she'd seen a very thrilling dog or other creature I'd um well no no no sorry that is terrible

but what you mean is what it means is less sort of docile I mean, Raymond is just sat now. But yeah, what I'm saying is if folks went off to chase something, and as well she may, it would then be quite quickly revealed how little authority I had. And actually, when I picked her up from Rose, she was barking a bit when I came to the door,

and I said, I hope we don't have too much of that barking on the podcast. And Rose said, oh, you want a bit of barking, don't you, to prove that she's there? Rose is absolutely right. Well, I mean, I suppose it's good texture, isn't it, on a Walk in the Dog podcast. But equally, I don't think people are going to think that I've created this weird, loose, godfatherly relationship

with an Irish Terrier. Come on, Raymond, come on, come on. Do you want me to carry you like a silly boy? Do you want to be carried like a silly boy, Raymond? Very shaming. Sometimes shame is an effective technique. Often written off. I know I need to introduce the podcast.

Yes, sorry. So this is Walking the doll. I'm Emily Dean and I'm here with the very wonderful Ivo Graham and we're with Fox. We're with Fox. Who we've already established is... Not my dog, but a dog that I have a certain degree of sort of part-time ownership of. And I'm so thrilled you agreed to do this, Ivo because I really love your stand-up.

Oh, that's nice you to secondly. Thank you. I remember spotting you. It probably was on Alive at the Apollo or something like that. And I just thought you were hilarious. And I still do that. It hasn't changed. Oh, that's going to be a shame if you'd had to retract that in recent years. So we've got lovely fox, your sort of...

My goddaughter. Let's go with my goddaughter. Goddaughter? Why not? I'm growing into that, actually. Canine goddaughter? My canine goddaughter. What was your...

relationship with dogs growing up with the Graham's dog people? We were dog people and are, but I was always accused by my brother and it's sort of become a joke now even though it's quite sad that I didn't love our family dog as much as he did. We had a board we had a we had a border territory when we were very young who sadly didn't have a terrific innings and then we had a Labrador Bertie for until last year and he's actually got a nice little plaque on the wall in my parents garden which went up just last week Bertie 2006 to 2020 so we can go this way I'd say well let's go this way okay and what kind of Labrador is Bertie oh golden because he

golden retriever but he was a golden lab golden retrievers no no he's not a golden retriever they're much more sort of um they've got much more beachy waves their hair yeah yeah whereas the lab has the close crop the close crop yites i mean uh shouldn't be emailing you this afternoon saying can we take out the bit where i don't know what breed the dog that my family had for 14 years was and only underlining my brother's point my brother would be leaping in here to give you Bertie's full medical records. But yeah, partly because I think my brother is the, he's the biggest dog whisperer in the family and he loved Bertie.

And also he was maybe the youngest when we got him and I was already at boarding school. There's very little in my life I can't blame on having gone to boarding school. And one of them was my failure to bond with Bertie in the late naughties. Because I was off repressing all sorts of emotions had eaten. Whereas my brother Ludo, who wouldn't go to boarding school until, I think, 2009, had some just very, very wholesome early years with Bertie. And then I'd come back as a teenager, a really bleak thing that I remember about my relationship with Bertie, is that there was a couple of long summer holidays at school where I would just play the football-based video. game, FIFA obsessively. And it was my sad, friendless time to myself, but I'd always been

invested in some project like a long career mode. And Bertie would sort of sit at my feet and with this sad judgment in his eyes, this impatience to go and do some sort of activity. And I'd just be thinking, we will go for a walk, but just I've got to get to the January transfer window. And I don't like having this. dog pressure put on me. And I'm imagining Mr Graham, Pops Graham, sort of wandering around like Lord Gratham. Now who's, sorry, is Mr. Graham my dad?

Yes. Right. No, he's not wandering around like Lord Grantham. You know, he brings us slightly chaotic energy at times. But I wouldn't say it's lordly. He loved Bertie. And again, the other thing that he would, we would do particularly as Bertie got a bit older, Dad just loved throwing things into the field for Bertie to go and chase.

And we'd actually be told that you shouldn't do that too much because he's, you know, his legs aren't what they were. And he gets very, you know, he obviously loves to chase things. So he's never going to decide not to do it. But he'll be, he'll be stiff for the rest of the day. But we were quite short-termist dog owners to be like, well, let's just give him the fun now. And whereabouts is this side? Where did you grow up?

This is in Wiltshire, where I spent much of my childhood, or at least school holidays. And we moved around a little bit and my family had in Switzerland for a few years when I was a sort of early teen. So Bertie got a lovely bit of Swiss, I don't know, go as stereotypical as you want, lovely Swiss meadow or a lake park. Did you take the dog with you then? Because that's quite complicated, is it quite complex. I'm now sort of remembering, particularly now as a sort of, as a sort of, parent and god. Oh, Ray, very, very, careful.

Sorry. So sorry. He got in the way of a cyclist. He was very polite and kind. This is a very quiet road, and yet all it took was one cyclist to immediately distress the Raymond situation. Look at his little teeth.

He's tottering beautifully. He looks like he's wearing lebutan's when his feet are wet. So it was complicated. It's where Bertie moved around. Bertie was getting chucked. We were all getting chucked around, you know. And why is that? Well, because my dad's job took him all over the place.

And the philosophy was that it was fun for the family. And it was. But it did mean we did move quite a lot. And Bertie would sometimes be in the back of the car for a long drive from like Wiltshire to Switzerland, which is, you know, quite punchy with some lovely stops in France. But as I say, as someone who's now. I think, I would say, struggling with quite a lot of the still quite manageable admin of my own adult life. I don't really know how they did that, to be honest, and how and indeed sort of why.

But Bertie had a great, he had a great 14 years and now there's a bit of discussion about whether there might be another dog at some point. you know now my parents are approaching sort of full mutual retirement in the lovely Wiltshire countryside and you know would we get another Labrador

to really just sort of replicate Bertie or whether a different sort of vibe actually through living with Fox I've started to say well Harge Terry's are very nice but I don't know again I'll let my

brother be the main advisor because ultimately he's the one we get home who'll he'll smother the dog with the most affection and he'll he'll suggest that I don't care enough and that will become this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy where I become this sort of cold dog snob so and with the moving around location-wise when you were younger but you were you were quite itinerant as well weren't you as a family yes because I think we have something in common you and I, which is that we both spent time in Australia when we were younger. Yes, that was a big part of my, we did two stints, we did one, a couple years in Sydney when I was about two or three,

don't remember them very well, and then a couple of years when I was a sort of preteen sort of 11, 12, also in Sydney. And I loved it. Where were you? We were in Sydney, we were in, on the North Shore, so we were in neutral bay. Do you know that? Not really, not well. We were in the eastern suburbs. Of course you were. Yes, I'm aware that even that is kind of remember.

But as I started as a teenager to become, you know, sort of anxiously aware of my privilege. And to be like, ah, yes, it seems that Eaton is not a normal school. And actually I do have quite a lot of things to be great. and apologetic for, I would then be like, but at least I can look back on my time in Australia as a sort of lovely, like, classless period where I just went to a day school without all that baggage. And then I'd say to people who knew Sydney, like, oh, we lived in four clues. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, you're posh twat. What? What effect do you think it has on you moving around a lot

as a kid, Ivo? I think it's, I mean, I think. I think it's good, but I'm aware that, you know, I've been quite heavily programmed by this point, by boarding school and other sort of just family philosophies to just think that everything's for the best. However disruptive, but I do, I think it made us quite adaptable. And you got quite good at starting over a bit. I mean, I went to boarding school in England when I was eight or seven. my eighth birthday was my second day there, classic birthday. And by boarding school you mean Eaton presumably? No, it's boarding school in Oxford called Summerfields.

A nice little feeder for Eaton. Not everyone from Summerfields went straight onto Eaton, but the expectation was that you probably could if you wanted to. So went there for three years, a bit homesick at first and then got into a nice groove. And then we went to Australia and that was great because it was like, oh, I was going to live at home with my family. And Vaucluse is very nice, of course. But and then, and you know, being a preteen in the city, felt quite exciting and independent. And then when we went back to England, that now was like, oh, I was just getting into my groove.

I was possibly going to join a band and be in the inaugural Sydney Grammar Concert, Grammopalooza. And because the football standards were much lower, I was in the A's, and I was even talk of state. Back to England, into the D's. So all of that was, I found Borny's a bit more of a chore the second time. And certain friends from Summerfields, they'd suddenly moved on in it in three years, so we didn't quite pick up where we left off. Unlike Julian, who Fox's owner, my dear friend and recent housemate, he, um, he, um, He's been there for me at every stage of my life, whether it's my first boarding school, my second boarding school, or lending me his dog for a podcast.

He's Mr. Reliable. Come on, Fox. Foxy. Oh no, and Raymond is now back in your arms. If it was a better path, would you be able to put Raymond down? Is it my fault, that's what I'm saying, for bad route planning that you're having to carry Raymond? You see, I think that's very interesting about you, that you've assumed. responsibility and guilt for that.

But in quite an unproductive way. That's why I think that's one of my least favorite things about myself is I don't really convert any of my regret into sort of proactive behaviour. I just flub and flub. Come on Fox. Are you one of those people Ivo that think, oh what did I do wrong if there's a problem? Well certainly could I have anticipated? I anticipated the problem a little bit.

I mean, even you come in and meet me this morning, and you couldn't have given me more windows to choose for the podcast, and I was not always very good at replying to your messages, because I'm chaotic. And getting back, and the only hour you can't park outside Julian and Rose is between 9.30 and 10.30, and that's exactly when I told you to come, and I just thought, God. I don't think you are chaotic and I like people that aren't

I'm going to use the word regimented okay because I have ADHD so whenever someone doesn't get back to me or is all I feel is a tremendous sense of relief because I think oh good I'll I like this person because I don't feel I find people I'm impressed by them

but you know those people that respond within two seconds and they're Uber efficient and I find them quite intimidating. Yeah, I do a bit as well. I mean I'm getting better on some of these fronts but like I'm late more than I would like in my life and actually more than other people would like to. I'm going to speak on behalf of them as well. Yeah so I am it always feels like when someone else is late like that I could accrue any brownie points at all by not being bothered that they're late. It's just it's just it. It soothes me.

And it's like, you know, some sense of a great debt being slightly paid off. If that makes sense. And similarly with techs, yeah, I mean, I don't think this does excuse me, not just replying a bit quicker to say that which day would be good to do the podcast. But because I think particularly when it's admin and you're busy, that's just basic. But sometimes with just keeping in touch with people. want to make like these, you know, such noble things like friendship sound like a burden because they're not. I'm a massive people-pleaser and I'd be nothing without my circle of

texts. Are you a big people-pleaser? I think I am a bit and I like to feel sort of plugged into, you know, people on what's going on with them. But if someone says you're texting and you reply straight away, then they'll just reply straight away, and then it'll just, then you'll never not be on your phone. And I am always on my phone, but I don't really,

I love the feeling of a ball being, even for a short while in someone else's court. This is why I can't do like meditation and stuff. Are we going to cross over here? No, we're not, well, it's a big road, but I think we could. Does that, any of that makes sense? Yes.

Come on, Ray. So Ivo, We need to talk about the elephant in the room. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Which is Eton. Okay. I had a few elephants in my mind there. So I'm intrigued to do which one you went for. But yeah, absolutely.

Eton at least is I feel I'm relatively well practiced on my sort of history of Eaton and what it did for me and to me. So you went to Eton when you were how old? 13, so sort of fresh out of a hot, you know, 28 month sabbatical in Australia, came back with a bit of a tan and a hint of an Australian accent, which was obviously mercilessly set upon by my peers. I mean, you must have come up with a few theories about, you know, schools like Eaton in your time. I dare say of, I don't know, met some goodies and some bad ease. Yes, I do, but I want to know what you think first. Right.

So? I think that I had a good time, a lot of the time, and certainly good education. And it has provided the basis for what then were really lovely. experiences in my life. Firstly, going to sorry the University of Oxford, the conveyor belt work in its magic again. That I really loved. And I think even though I wasn't in a load of sort of Bullying Dene's clubs, I was still running around Oxford enjoying a lot of the oldy, worldly pomp of it. And then even doing stand-up, which is obviously a terrific way to waste in education.

It's still based on, now we've come to quite a burnt bench, which is a little distressing, literally, literally burnt. Can we sit down or do you think it's weird sitting on the burnt bench? No, I think it'd be nice to sit on the burnt bench. So tell me, yeah, we were talking about Eaton. I mean, I'm very happy to talk about Eaton as long as you, but please cut me off when I'm, because I'm not been, even on a topic which I claim to be well practiced on, it's amazing how resolutely in

articulate I can be about it. I had an all right time but there's also things about boarding school which are I think getting more and more outdated and I don't think I'd send my children to boarding school although obviously that's dependent on multiple factors

as to whether one would even be able to do that and single sex education maybe not great either I don't like to think of myself as stunted for life, but probably missed out on some good formative and possibly quite fun experiences on that front,

which is not to say our Saturday nights socials with Wickham Abbey once a term weren't reward in and of themselves. But yeah, I think what the school represents is not great, And I do think it's being pretty fantastically badly represented at the moment by those people in charge and the almost like erotic levels of entitlement and self-interest that are, I mean, in the news at the very moment, it's just this sort of narrative behind all of these scandals is, well, why can't I do this? because there's never been any opposition to it. And I think it's good if one doesn't emerge into the world at 18 or 21 with that sense of completely bulletproof entitlement. Yeah, it's interesting though, isn't it?

Because I suppose you asked me earlier what my experience of the school and Old Antonians is. And I suppose I feel with boys I encountered that went to the Big Five, the Big Five. I've never even thought about it as the Big Five, but you can be damn sure I'm working on my head now. So I would find beyond education in some ways, beyond that privilege, I always felt the most valuable thing they got was, this confidence and charisma.

And I think that charisma can be a really lovely thing and it can be a force for good. But then if you go to the dark side, it's all surface. Because I feel I cling to this idea that I had almost like outsider status or in the most sort of tiny violin minor way because maybe even just being disrupted a bit

by moving across the world and, you know, just the fact that I was suddenly quite shined, mostly kept to myself to myself at school and didn't go to all these fantastic, sort of extra confidence boosting things in my holidays, meant that I didn't develop that kind of, fox is quite literally chasing her own tail. I love it when dogs do that.

It's so sweet. I mean, I mean, it's just here, By my feet, just so soft. There we go. Fox's existence has finally confirmed for the pod. So anyway, carry on. So me just yabbering on about how I was a little bit shy at school,

but then maybe that was a good thing because I worked hard and got my grades and got into uni, and then maybe did start doing stand-up because I wanted to have a bit of a sort of identity. And so actually, what do you know? It's led me to where I am today. And am I happy? To an extent.

That's, um, it's a, slightly garbled life story. It gives you confidence, doesn't it, going to a school like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. I think even if you're a self-styled insecure at a tonian, you're probably a damn sight, you know, further along in the sort of general confidence sense. And even the school is just telling you can be anything.

So I suppose, you know, even something as ludicrous as stand-up comedy, and people did find the idea of me doing it pretty ludicrous. Did they? Yeah, lots of like, we never thought you. And I was like, fair enough, of course, you didn't, because I didn't say a single funny thing at school. I was squirreling it away. And occasionally pouring into texts to like my three friends.

Then at uni, I think I was like, okay, okay. New friends, new scene, new hobby. If not now, then when? And then I was blissfully happy. I mean, I probably wasn't. I was still, you know, very spotty, very romantically frustrated, but then also talking about romantic frustration in my stand-up so much

that I think it became a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, you need to be honest, who were like, well, he's friends-zoning himself with all this chat. Even the concept of the friend zone, I'm aware, quite a toxic, you know, the idea that female friendship is just a stepping stone. A terrible consolation prize. I think I did. Well, that's what I did that on. And again, I'm not saying I've only learned all the things I need to know about myself through YouTube comments.

Because A, that's pathetic. And B, you shouldn't read the comments. But, and I would arrive at lots of these conclusions myself through life and time and wisdom. But there was a bit in... Stop it. Sorry, I wasn't saying stop it to Ivo. Stop talking Ivo. I did a bit on...

And the Apollo set about being told that I would make a great boyfriend. by people and how I found it frustrating because it never actualised itself. And it's quite a debate in the comments about whether that's, you know, a sort of, you know, just how toxic that philosophy is. Yeah. And I do think there is this like, you know, it's an interesting conversation we had about, like, beta male misogyny or whatever, or that sort of like, insults now, I suppose. I was an insult.

I was ahead of my time at uni. I mean, obviously that's what comics do, isn't it? Is that they alchemise their pain? Pain. Yeah, I mean, well, alchemy's a lovely word. It does suggest there's gold at the end of it, and there isn't always. Sometimes you just stir the pain around.

I mean, it could even more of a mess. I mean, I'm trying at the moment, which is to just make a quick sort of pop over to another elephant. So my daughter's mum and I, we're not together. Hence my temporary residences in my various Putney friend's homes with their dogs and children and my sort of back and forthing of my own daughter with her mum, all of which has been very complicated by the lockdowns, I can tell you. But I've tried to talk about that a bit on stage recently because it is a pretty,

let's stick to the path, if not conversationally, then at least literally. It's such an enormous part of what I'm thinking about and the identity that I'm now trying to sort of rebuild. But it's very tricky because people are just like, what? You know, I think to be like talking about, even if things have, you know, broadly been done very amicably and for the best of reasons, Like talking about essentially breaking up with a young child, it's a difficult thing to rev up to in a stand-up set. So I wouldn't describe that as alchemy quite yet. Fox is now interacting with another dog. It's a be-shan, I think.

It's a bichon, you say. Okay. That dog soda has lifted it up and taken it away. But they didn't just lift it up and take it away. He did it in a suit. It was Algern? We're leaving. I think you'd get pretty short odds on that dog being called Alginon. No, Fox! See, this is what I told you if Fox gets excited. I have to become an authority figure and I'm not. Fox! Fox! Foxy! There we go. Good stuff!

I feel that was probably less to do with me saying Fox for any degree of firmness and more to do with Alginon's owner. I'm saying no thank you all. I'm really sorry you've gone through that because that's that's all right. Bloody difficult, isn't it? It is and isn't an evolving situation with I think a few more emotional bumps ahead. But then I also think that when put in the context of things like war and grief and loss, it's all, you know, this is just relationships and the business of life

and it is still something that's to a certain degree. within your control and very fantastic things to come out of it. My daughter is just heaven, she's two and a half, and it's just the best age to watch it all sort of coming together. You had kids relatively young for a comic, didn't you? Yeah, I think, I mean, yeah, maybe for a comic, I mean, obviously globally, they're popping them out at all sorts of ages. How old are you to... We comics do like to cling on to that...

that sort of independence as long as possible so we can do all those international festivals. I was 28, so not that. I mean, about the same age as my parents and it's probably quite telling how much I view everything through that prism. I say, well, my dad did it, so I can do it. And but I had, we had, I mean, not that obviously what one's peers are up to is, or should be a major factor but most of my good friends in comedy are a few years older and so there was a sense that the gang were getting on with it and it is lovely to do it sort of while your friends are doing it but it is a funny old series of challenges and I don't think it's I don't think it has helped my ability to

as we were discussing earlier, be completely at peace with myself or my decisions because I do spend quite a lot of my time feeling like I'm in a sort of free fall. But then I get on stage. Yes, Fox, exactly. She's heard this bit of the story before. I get on stage and I'm alive.

And so tell me, when was the first time you did? All right, Fox. We're back to the origin story. I'm about to start talking about the comment. Club in Oxford. First time I did, I'm anticipating first time you did stand up, it could be a deeper, more personal question about my romantic history, 2012. But my first gig was in 2009, or late 2008, I mean, it doesn't matter.

And how old were you? 18 years old. What could an 18 year old possibly have to tell a small audience of his pampered peers at Oxford's Comic Club above what's now called the Turl Street Kitchen? To which the answer is some pretty spectacularly airheaded riffs about the vasty ski trip. And I remember it went sort of for a first gig, not disastrously. We got an email from the Compaer who was a London-based comic who was so sweet saying, you know, terrific, you know, to see you doing comedy so young and come and do my London gig if you're in London in the holidays.

But you know, probably shouldn't all be about the vasty ski trip. Like, yep, no, that's fair actually. It's not to say the observations weren't bang on. Fox. But that's quite brave, Ivo. I mean, you're talking about, oh, I did. It's not attention seeking. I, it's, you know, I do think, yeah, I do need to learn to take compliments in life.

And it's not beat myself up too much. But the bravery narrative. I mean, you've hung out with lots of standard. You're very close to all sorts of things. Do you think they're all very brave? Or is it actually just narcissism unleashed? I think it's... I think the difference between...

It's what separates stand-ups from... I think most people would have a bad gig and would talk about it for 40 years is the most awful night of their lives. It would become their story. Yeah. It would define them. Yeah.

And it would be like never again. and there is a difference between and frankly that is quite a normal response. Yeah, it's true but then even Stalps can build in their bad gigs. I mean lots of Stamps, you know, a lot of their stand-up is about other gigs they've done because that becomes your life. And I actually think it's a bit of faux par actually to have too many gig stories as part of your set. But yeah, it's kind of, it's sort of win-win really. The good gigs just boost your confidence and lead to more stuff.

And the bad gigs, you know, to give you this. to give you this burning desire to write those wrongs and also this slightly vengeful sense, particularly if it wasn't your fault for some reason, like a heckler disrupted your rhythm, then you can just talk about that at other gigs or, you know, I think obviously if the ratio is terrible, if four out of five of your gigs are going badly, then you shouldn't be a stand-up And most people would and do stop if that's the case. But if it's the other way round, then it's a lot of people would say it's the bad ones that keep you on your toes. And of course there is a, yeah, I don't know.

I just don't think it's brave. I have become almost unnerved by how, like, dead-eyed and clinical I can be about gigs sometimes. where it's like I'll be having dinner with some friends in central London. I'll be like, I've got to go and do this gig in about 15 minutes. And they're like, 15 minutes. I'm like, well, yeah, but I'm just not, I'm going to think about it in about 12 minutes. We had dinner with you round the corner so that I can try and enjoy a bit of my Friday night up until the gig and not feel like I've just lost everything to the career.

And then, I'm not going to do it? But then do you think that's the difference between, you know, We were talking about Gary Lineca earlier. We were talking about Gary Linnaker earlier. He's a local lad. He said we're in Gary's manner. He's fascinating when he talks about taking penalty kicks. Most people, even comics, could not begin to imagine doing something.

I think that's very fair. That's because the hopes of a nation or of a club rest upon you. But then his point, and that's what's so interesting, is he said that's what makes a footballer. is the difference between someone at that level, he said, is that I had a cool head. Yeah. He said, and you don't get anywhere.

He said, that's all I had. I wasn't as talented as Gaza or I didn't have that, but I had a cool head. And that's more important. And when you're talking about those gigs, to me with comics, that's sort of what you need, oddly, is a cool head. Yeah, okay.

I'll take cool head. I'll take a sort of a, a B-list cool head, not an A-list penalty shootout cool head or, you know, surgeon cool head. But yes, an ability to... Ray's hair's gone frizzy in the rain, Ivo. So... Is Raymond an easy dog to sort of look after? Is he quite content in his own company at home?

Oh, he's an absolute... He's a real gentleman, Raymond. Well, that's a lovely review. I think he's very, very sweet. And though I don't think he and Fox have ever quite hit the heights of their first meeting. I think they've both broadly enjoyed this lovely. I think they've enjoyed it. I think you have to sort of manage your expectations with dog friendships.

Yes. Does that you mean? I think they're not really, they don't really say, oh my God, I like Pulp Fiction too. Let's go back to this way. So, and you were, you had something really unusual happen with your comedy career either, because... What? Well, you got signed when you were at Oxford.

Yes. I left, I had an agent by the time I left university, which was, again, a great thing for the confidence. And I think for the reassurance of quite a lot of parents and parents' friends who are like, but it's not going to be a career, though. and my parents would get to say, well, I mean, we don't know. And in many ways, they still don't. But he's got an agent. I've been to Edinburgh three times by the time I left uni and was doing paid gigs in my holidays and stuff.

So it did give me the sense that I had like a base to work from. And this kind of smugness, I think, as well, when everyone was scrabbling around at the end of uni for what to do. And I was just like, well, I'm going to. move to London and do some gigs. Because that's not something normally that people who go to eat and do, is it? And yet, in some ways it's just a, I wonder if it plays into the narrative of,

they think they can do anything these people. Even a career associated with like, I don't know, a certain amount of underdog charm can just be appropriated by the posh. You know, I think you read about that a lot with, with sort of posh people in comedy. And I think also, I think it's very relevant to what's happening, maybe in the music industry where certain, like, it's getting harder and harder to survive as a new band.

And increasingly, like, a lot of the ones breaking through ones that are quite posh and all went to certain schools. And I kind of think, and even, like, I've gone back to Eaton, you know, I've talked a lot, you know, about how, what I'd do would, bring great shame to my parents and my school and stuff. It gets a cheap laugh, Emily. But actually, my parents are very sweet and supportive. They've put on gigs for me.

But yeah, so they've come to lots of gigs. They put on gigs of mine for their friends locally. And I've gone back to the school to Eaton to once a couple of years ago to do like people in their 20s and 30s come and talk about career things. and obviously like, because I think in their own way, even though I'm a bit, you know, not all of my stand-up is hugely dignified and I don't talk with always in very complimentary ways about the school because I think there's a lot that's wrong with it.

It's still like, look at this chap plowing his own furrow, you know, and like, so I'm not, I'm certainly not throwing it back in their face. I'm going back to school to quip about life as an old Etonian stand-up, potentially to inspire a new generation of even more hateful Eaton comics, although I hope there won't be, because I don't really have many other sort of USPs. You said that's what your agent said. Yeah, it's the only USP you've got.

I do think it's an absurd differential to be able to cling to. I think it's, you know, that... Your parents must be really proud of you, though, either. Do you think they are? I think they are. Do they tell you that? Yeah, they do actually. They're fantastic.

I think I'd like you, do you? Yeah, I think you would. I think, and I think he's, uh, he enjoys his sort of proximity to the world as well. Like he's, you know, he'll come to Edinburgh most years with my mum. And then there was one year when my mum didn't come for some reason. He came on his own and we went out together, like to the sort of, I don't know, the abattoir bar or something. And he was, he was living it a bit, I think, and chatting to people. And, you know, various comic friends have done, like, gigs locally to us and,

and stayed over. And he sort of feels almost a slightly, loosely paternalistic thing with Josh Whitacom because Josh and I did an Edinburgh show together about 10 years ago. And then Josh came and did a gig in my local pub the sort of following spring. And then stayed and drunk port with my dad in my house. My dad had his dressing gown. And I think, you know, so dad can now flick on the telly at almost any point and see Josh, a man he's drunk port with a dressing gown.

And we're like, ah, my world too. And I read that your, your mom, I was really sorry Ivo to hear that, because I know she has MS, doesn't she? She has MS, yeah. Is she a wheelchair user now then? She is, yeah. Pretty, yeah, I mean, it's gone through that sad sort of thing with, you have, with secondary progressive MS, where it's started affecting her mobility about the decade

and a half ago and at first it was you know walking with stick sometimes and it was a stick all the time in a wheelchair sometimes and now she's permanently in a wheelchair but for all sorts of um energy and again money has been thrown at uh getting a lift put in my parents house and getting this new exciting motorized wheelchair which we're all um sort of in some ways uh rather excited about and again i think through doing i've done stuff with the ms society and done a few fundraisers for them and got to know a few of the people who worked there and again you find out a lot about just as sort of more general circumstances around living with the condition and I think again you're always trying to glass half full it as you know some

people have this all a lot worse than my family but it is um it is the biggest challenge that we sort of face I think even the old sort of chaotic sun with his broken hope can't pull MS off the front page really and in some ways my parents have been I think it's been quite nice for them to be like parents again through Ivo's difficult time I mean I don't think we are the most stiff upper-lipped family I think we've always been pretty you know but I think we've always been pretty generous with our emotions you know my parents for example I've never been short of declaring love and pride and all the other things you need and crave as a child and

often denied in these sorts of sort of Victorian stereotypes. But, you know, I think there's an inherent stiff upellipeness to just like the idea of boarding school in general, that something that it can be extremely painful is still necessary, necessarily for the best and you just get on with it. And as I say, it's difficult to know how appropriate. Some people think it's completely sort of ludicrously inappropriate. And some people think that it's the best thing you can do for your child. And I remember my parents, even at this time,

I remember sort of sensing that they were somewhere in between that the mum found it incredibly hard. And when it comes to dealing with, you know, I don't know, like these sort of adult problems and obviously the way in which our family circumstances have changed a lot over the last you know, decades to do with my mum. We're all trying to engage with it more articulately.

And my, like, therapy, something I've started doing in the last couple of years to try and engage with all, you know, all sorts of things. And I think we're broadly, my sister is a big advocate of it and does it as well. And we're sort of of the view that maybe we should all, do that sort of thing a bit more. But I also think it's hard because you are also confronting a lot of the mechanisms that have sort of got you this far as it were. If you've broadly enjoyed your life and had a nice time and stuff has worked out, this is a bit of fear about sort of retrospectively pulling it all apart.

I know that's not necessarily what therapy is, but does that make sense? Yeah. I think, you know, so one thing my dad was always very good at, and I think it was quite essential to the whole boarding school drop-offs, was he would say things to look forward to. I always think about things to look forward to. And I thought it was really lovely and wholesome and something I've always carried with me into my sort of adult life. But it's a form of getting on with it. but I would like to finally by the way I'm disposing with some dog waste which I've carried I've carried the Dijon mustard for about 40 minutes yeah I'm I'm benefiting from a little bit more self-interrogation would like to do more but I also am not

going to completely upend the way I was my perspective on the way I was raised or educated because I think I got a lot of good from it. Raymond! Raymond! You're a bit like me, Ivo. Do you know that? Well, I'd love to know in what way, but I find decisions very hard. I find regrets all-consuming.

I find sort of nostalgia in the smallest of places and just fixate on it. And I think it's okay to find things overwhelming. I always do, and I just tell people. Yeah. People are really nice about it, don't know. People are nice about it, don't know. about it, but equally, they, you know, it's that thing of, they might not ask your back. People are very sensitive to being over, you know, people are being overwhelmed and

them, but if it's like, well, we could invite Ivo, but if literally anything gets on, or if he's even reminded of something that he doesn't sit comfortably with him, he'll probably go into a black hole. So probably just the easiest not to invite him. I trade on being pretty good, like, fun company. in some ways the mania of some of the stresses of the last couple of years has channeled itself into almost more like aggressively fun company and fun but I think the cracks also do show

a little bit more sometimes yeah do you find work because we should just say your career's been hugely successful I feel like you sort of haven't stopped working really since you left Oxford? Yeah. I mean, I've certainly done a lot of gigs. I've racked up a lot of rail miles.

I always feel a little bit uncomfortable talking about stand-up as too hard work because you do have a lot of the day to sort of you know, send up the spout. But yes, particularly when you're then doing a bit of writing or podcasting or if the gigs are far away, you're getting back very late.

all it does all add up to quite a big old job. So, Ivo, how do you deal with confrontation? I avoid it, please. No, I mean, like sometimes I don't think I'm a completely avoidant person. You know, I do think that there is in value to embracing it for lots of reasons, one of which is one of his own self-worth. I remember one example, and I've only one of it, really got one example. I'd love to be able to think of a few more. But I remember we had a

really awkward thing in our friendship group once because we were having a big party and there was a couple who'd broken up. And basically the person, it was a bit awkward because, you know, classic friend group thing of who's going to come to the party? And basically one of the couple needed to be told that they couldn't come to the party and it was legitimate because they knew the group less well and because they'd done the dumping and so they'd be able to absorb that as a small bit of collateral but everyone's been very awkward about it and i remember that i um had the conversation quite proactively and i remember just like one or two people being like wow fair play you actually told someone that they couldn't come and uh i was like yes i embraced a difficult situation

and everyone felt better for it i was more respected for it i respected myself more for it um And actually then they both got back together and both came to the party anyway, so it was for nothing. But do you? But I don't do that a lot. I also, the other, in a sort of weird echo of this, only a week or so ago, I was out with friends in London. We were a group of four, and I'm afraid to say we were going to use my debut use of my Soho House membership, which I got free because I did an online gig for them during lockdown. And I was like, great, because we were struggling for place to go. I was like, and get three guests in.

And then we bumped into a group, a sort of another friend. sort of group of friends outside the Soho. And I had to, and I decided, as we'd worked out where we were going to go as a bigger group, and then we decided we'd probably end up just going to the Soho House because the bigger group was unmanageable. I said to the fifth person, my friend Billy, I said, Billy, though, if we do go to Soho House, I'm afraid it will only be able to be the four of us. So sort of, you know, last in, first out sort of thing. And she was like, oh no, I mean, that's fine by me.

I probably wasn't even to come anyway. People were like, you so weirdly proactively sort of executed your friend in public in an attempt to sort of be decisive because I almost never am. But the fact that it didn't, does that make sense? It didn't go, it was treated as such a weird and aggressive thing to do that I was like, well, that's me back under the shell for another five years. I am a passenger. I think I've been quite fortunate to not.

spend much of my life not having to come into contact with too much conflict. I think the main thing is because I'm self-employed and because as a stand-up, particularly if you're one in any sort of even mild demand, you're enabled all the time. You turn up late to some recording and people are some, you know, apologising for you being late. And it's like, no, no, I probably need to be taken to task a bit more. You see why people become such awful divas. Do you know what I think about you, either? Please get worse each time.

No, they don't. They get more affectionate, but more damning. I've never had the lid pulled off my personality in real time to quite such an extent. But what do you think? I think, I really like you and I really want you to be kinder to yourself because you're really lovely, kind, warm, generous-hearted bloke. I mean, I do think some of those things are true. a lot of the time. But that's speculation, isn't it? From a, from a, you know, at best a new friend.

A new and potentially very dear friend with whom I will probably text quite a lot about some of the. But you feel that need to deflect compliments. I understand that. I think that's a British thing, isn't it? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And again... It's a bit you grant. So I won this bloody old Oscar. Bloody silly old Oscar thing. I don't know what to do with it. I find that British thing at the Oscars very tedious, actually. What am I doing here?

I'd like to think if I won an Oscar, which I think that can stay in a pretty hypothetical realm, can't act. Goodness knows there are opportunities at school. We had three theatres. But yeah, I think I'd have the same. I'd have the skills to give an Oscar except in speech which showed that I felt I deserved it.

But, you know, what's that based in, given that I can't even accept you telling me on Barnes Common that... I like you. That you like me? No, you don't. You've just been swept up in my pathetic fog of just rubbish. it's sufficiently distant from your reality.

If you had to live with this, I do envy. I mean, even in the comedy world, there's a lot, particularly prominent in the world of social media. There is a lot of self-bigging up and about, you know, faking it till you make it.

And all this other stuff, which is broadly pretty healthy. There's still just something about my conditioning, and it feels it's all a bit like, oh, it's a bit public and a bit vulgar. It's like, what do I want to do? I want to sort of hide and just hope everyone else does all the promotional work for me because I do want people to back on this road.

This way? Yeah, I mean the house is just there so we could just sort of curve. I'll go across there. Come on. I am. Well, is it sort of? I put up a clip of me doing stand up there and it's a clip I'm really proud of. And it's like sort of desperate to beat the algorithms and get people watching it on social

media because I do crave that gratitude. but it's like, oh, I can't say anything more than, it can't even write, please, like and share. I was like, no, no, no, no, people must be allowed to make their own decision on that front. Hello. Hello, dog. Oh, little Jack Russell. Hello, little Jay. I love a Jack Russell.

But that's interesting, isn't it, that not bigging yourself up? Well, you should because... That can be the one positive outcome of this podcast. The one positive outcome of this podcast, other than... The actually very helpful and compassionate character diagnosis from you is that I can say that people should watch a short video of me performing some crowdwork at the Top Secret Comedy Club. You've got really good mates in the industry, haven't you? I do. I'll take that, yes. I have good friends and I am a good friend.

Are you a good friend? I'm not reliable, but I do come through the goods occasionally. Yeah, but you know what? Liza Minnelli's not reliable. Okay. Well I really warm to Fox. It doesn't surprise me that you're godparent to a lovely dog. Oh well, thanks, thank you. Because I think you've got quite a similar nature to Fox.

You're quite, you are. Sort of... Really gentle and... Really gentle. They didn't start barking quite randomly for no real particular reason. Bye-bye. A lovely embrace for you and rain. embrace for you and Raymond.

Bye. Goodbye Emily. Thank you very much for inviting me on this dog walk. Goodbye, Raymond. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate,

review and subscribe on iTunes.