Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jack Thorne

Episode Date: August 11, 2019

This week Emily takes award winning playwright and screenwriter Jack Thorne for a stroll with her dog Raymond. They talk about being shy, how it felt to be a state school kid at Cambridge and his huge body of writing - from Harry Potter and the Cursed Child to The Virtues. Jack also tells Emily about meeting his wife and naming his son after his favourite film. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ray, he's not going to listen to me. He might, can't try him. Ray, Ray. You have to raise your voice, go, Ray. Ray. Ray. He looked, Jack. He did it. Do it again, Jack.

Ray. Oh, no, he's gone to the... He's gone to him. I'm so sorry. He's looking at a woman. I'm so sorry. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll with screenwriter, playwright, and the man described as a modern-day Dickens, Jack Thorne.

Jack's probably best known as the author of, of the hugely successful stage play, Harry Potter and the Curse Child, as well as his TV work with director Shane Meadows. But I can't mention all his credits. I'll be here all night. Basically, Jack's got a groaning awards cabinet filled with Five Bafters, a Tony and an Olivier Award. I first met Jack through the comic, Frank Skinner,

as they've become in-laws. Frank's partner, Kathy, is the sister of Jack's wife, Rachel, which might be the best ever family set up for a brilliant sitcom. Jack's probably one of the most humble and self-effacing people you'll ever mean. In fact, if there's any one thing I'd change about him, it's his slight sense of unease around dogs. But I attempted to cure that by taking him out with my dog Raymond, because he's more of an Ewok than a dog.

And so we braved a rainy day in London's Green Park for our stroll. Do look out for Jack's upcoming BBC adaptation of Philip Pullman's Dark Materials. There's animals in it, Ray. There's monkeys, there's polar bears. Well, I don't know if there were any parts for dogs. No, I couldn't ask him to give you a part and it's rude. They couldn't afford your food bill anyway. I really hope you enjoy my walk with Jack because I loved it and I love him.

Please rate, review and subscribe if you did. Here's Jack. Are we going? Do I start talking? I think that's the strangest beginning I've ever had to the podcast. Jack, look. Yes, he doesn't love the radio. Do you want to describe what's happening, Jack? I'm incapable of any description, but he doesn't like the rain, I don't think. He's just sort of standing down.

If you're incapable of any description, I'm going to have a word to say about those five factors. Hold him, Jack. I'm holding him. Ray, come on. No, he doesn't want to move. Come on, Ray. I think he's reluctant around me. I might take him off the lead.

All right, okay, and just carry him. He likes his... Okay. He likes to run free. Come on, Raymond. Do you see? So as soon as we took his lead off, He started walking, didn't he?

Well, maybe he was wary of me holding the lead. No, Jack. I think he just was... I think it's just a sort of lesson in parenting, essentially, isn't it? The harder you tug on the lead, more they resist. Jack, I think we should find some cover. Come on, Raymond! Because it's wet.

Should we go under one of those trees? Yeah, sure. We could walk up there. I'm going to introduce you now. Okay. I'm in London's Green Park. Yes. With my dog Raymond.

And I'm going to be up front about this. He's a pal of mine and I think he's fabulous. He's a playwright, a screenwriter. He's got five afters, but he doesn't like to talk about it, but I do. I think there's a Tony knocking around there somewhere. There is. I think there's an Olivia Award knocking around there somewhere. I'm with Jack Thorne.

Hello, Jack. Hello, hello, hello. And this could all be a disaster because my idea of a nice walk is walking along in silence. So, you know. Is it, though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, literally the main way Rachel and I survive or used to survive before we had a child.

That's your wife, Rachel. Yes, is by taking long walks together where we'd walk silently all the way. It's why Kath, the way that we know each other is you'll co-present Frank's radio show and his girlfriend, partner, whatever you call her, Kath, is the sister of my wife, Rachel. You're Frank Skinner's brother-in-law? I'm Frank Skinner's brother-in-law, though not technically, but yes. And yeah, where Frank and Cass can't stop talking, Rachel and I will sit happily in silence for hours. Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she talks to other people, just not to me. We're just quite quiet. I do talk a lot, which you may have noticed. Yes. But I'm happy with my own company. Yes. And I'm really happy with silence now.

Yes. Well, that might be writing. Might have changed something a tiny bit, maybe. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe? No. I think partly, and I think partly I'm probably a bit less mad than I was. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think people that can't tolerate silence, well, solitude, actually. Yeah. I think sometimes it's a bit When Will the Lamb's stop screaming, Clarice? Yes, yes. So we're with Raymond today, Jack. Yes, who is wet and looks a tiny bit tired and miserable.

But is he all right? I think he's okay. What do you make of him? You've met Raymond before, haven't you? I've met Raymond a few times before, and he's hung up on my son a bit on occasion. And he's a lovely dog. I mean, I don't know much about dogs, but he seems very lovely.

So what's your view of dogs? Well, I'm not, I'm a bit scared of them, but I'm determined that Elliot, my son is not scared of them. And also, I have heard that dogs are very useful, particularly for boys, when they're growing up. And that's sort of stuck in my head somewhere, that having someone who loves you without restraint. We've got a lovely, hello, did you want to see my dog?

I think we've got some people who want to see the dog. Do you want to say hello to him? He's called Raymond. Do you want to say hello? So cute. Do you want to give him a stroke? He's not so sure, this little one. He's having a good look.

Oh, the rainstorm? Oh, the rainstorm. It was nice to meet you guys. Cheers, bye, bye, bye, bye. Lovely to meet you. Come on, Raymond. Oh, Jackie wants to go with them instead. Come on, Raymond.

I don't blame him. So we had a little encounter there, Jack, with some strangers. How did you find that? Do you find those situations stressful? Yes, I'm very awkward, socially, and very awkward socially. And, you know, I'm very anxious socially. So, yes, no, no, no, no. I never know what to say.

And I always have, you know, I think everyone does that thing of having a thousand things that they're going to say in their head. Yeah. And then they only say one of them. I say none of them, which is why I'm a writer. And I suppose is that the difference between an introvert and an extrovert, is that some people derive their energy from a situation like that,

like an encounter with, I look at that and then, oh, people, I can get to know them. Yeah. Do you feel shy, or do you just feel you want your own space? Yeah, and just that I'm going to say something wrong and ruin everything for everyone. It's generally the main thought I have. But you never do, in my experience. Well, yeah, maybe know me a bit longer. Stick around.

Exactly, exactly. So tell me about your relationship with dogs or your non-relationship with dogs. You grew up in Bristol or you moved to Bristol. No, I lived in Bristol until the age of nine and then I moved to a town called Newbury from 9 to 18. Is that in Berkshire? Yeah, that's in Berkshire, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, no, I don't. We never had a dog.

We had cats. We had guinea pigs. We're very sad guinea pigs that are, one of our guinea pigs called Nutmeg died when my brother fed him accidentally.

The death of a guinea pig already. My brother accidentally fed nutmeg a rhubarb leaf and then Nutmeg died and then Pearlie our other guinea pig starved to death because it wouldn't take any food was just like which apparently is a common thing about

guinea pigs. Hungastri. He was so, I can't remember it was a he or a she, but Pearly was so upset that she just never ate again. Is it a broken heart? Literally of a broken heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's rather the Shakespeare. I know, I know, I know. And we had lots of cats. We had a succession of cats. Typical writer, even your guinea pigs death has sort of had some narrative. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So it was you and it's Maggie and Mike your parents. Yes, Maggie and Mike, my mum and dad.

Yeah. And your brothers and sisters, will you talk us through them? Yes. So my older brother and sister are twins, Joe and Chris, and my, and they're four and three-quarter years older than me. And then I've got a younger sister called Liz, who's three and a half years younger. So they spaced it out quite a lot. And my dad would have stopped it too, but my mum kept tricking him. So I was a trick and my little sister was also a trick. Yes, I think me and my sister were tricks. Really? Yeah, I think that was the thing.

Right. It was quite a 70s thing. So your dad wouldn't have had any kids? No, my dad said to me, I never wanted children. But then we'll come on to that because that was part of his sort of intellectual honesty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about your childhood, Jack Thorne. What sort of words would you use to describe it?

Quite hidden. I was sort of someone that. struggled, but didn't want other people to know that I was struggling. And so just lived quite quietly. My brother and sister, I don't know, just like having them being a bit older and having them seeing the things that happened to them, that my sort of response to that was to not really tell my mum and dad anything and not really tell anyone anything.

So I just sort of... What do you mean the things that happened to them? Well, I don't want to, like that's their story, but, you know, that I was sort of like, I'll just keep my story. That was your way of dealing with. Exactly, exactly. And my parents are quite loud and wonderful and brilliant. And yeah, it just was a, so I just kind of kept myself to myself quite a lot. Yeah.

And was sort of fine. But I wasn't particularly happy, I don't think. I was sort of, the thing in your book that I always remember is your thing where, that wearing that label unlovable. And I think I do feel a certain affinity to that. Really? And I think probably that's how I felt for a very long time. I mean, Rachel was the first girl I introduced to my parents at the age of 32.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that we just... You knew that that was... Yeah, so I lived a very private sort of quite in my head life. And I didn't really, I had friends, but I never really had a best friend. A lot of my stuff is about best friends because I really, really wanted one. And I really wanted someone to share, share things with.

Did you feel, because I feel that we grew up in kind of similar families in some way, but different, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I would, I mean, your family was a lot more glamorous of mine. So, you know, that your parents were very, I think they're born of a similar. ilk, but your parents were involved in a life that, I don't know, do you know what I'm a very glamorous life, you know? Well, I suppose I think what I'm saying in terms of the similarities is that I see your parents as sort of left wing and with a big social conscience and, you know, we had...

And no filter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And dinner parties where there were debates constantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I interviewed Ed Miliband on this podcast. and I feel he had quite a similar background, unsurprisingly. And he said he was treated always a bit like an adult. So there was no concession made for him being a child.

No, no, no. What do you mean? That's preposterous. But you know what you mean? It was that sort of vibe. Did you get that? No, totally, totally. And Ed came and saw the play, actually,

and said that there was a similarity. Because Jeff is a... Jeff, who does the podcast with him, is a mate of mine. We should say, actually, that when Jack says the play, his play, The End of History. Which is closing on Saturday. I know. The timing is terrible. We're not advertising yet on the shirt.

But to be honest, to PR any of Jack's stuff, I think it's sort of unfair to the rest. It's like, you're doing all right. I'm doing an anti-PR for you. You're doing far too well for my liking. Leave some to the rest of us, mate. Awesome. So this is a torpedo. But yeah, the end of history, you talk. Actually, I won't leap ahead.

that because we'll talk about that and writing that. But, um, so yeah, so you would say... But I just mean that that you said, you were very nice about it and Ed was very nice about it. And I think people that had parents like that sort of get that play, which is, you know, which isn't everyone and the play wasn't for everyone and that's fine. But yeah, uh, yeah, it was interesting. And I got the, oh, where's he gone?

He's getting lured in by took a look. Oh no. Jack, can, this is what he does. He really, really is freaked out by me, I think. and is doing everything you can to stay away. He just keeps on running off with other people. Sorry about that. But I think it's that what I got,

what I have come to understand about your family and your childhood, is that, like mine, I suppose, it was kind of messy, but then I think... But glorious. But glorious and complex. And I think when you have... No, I adore my parents, and I think they're amazing, and I think they did incredible things with their lives,

which I think is something to be said for that. And also you look back, or I do anyway, and I think of the legacy of growing up with those people, with those kind of minds, and inquiring, questioning people that challenge. Yeah. You know. Challenge is the right word.

Yeah. But at the same time, there's a damage there. Of course. And, you know, everyone deals with it differently, and I think it's interesting that your way was to withdraw maybe. Yeah. My way was to put on armour and be a bit, there's no business like show business. And sort of, you know, that's how some other people got.

I erected an armour and it took me a long time to sort of, you know, dismantle it. So I wonder if your way's probably slightly healthier. And what did Rachel do? My sister, she was like you. Right, okay. She withdrew. You know, she was quiet and she would, you know, roll her eyes a bit. Right, right, right.

And were you close to your siblings, Jack, growing up? Very, very close. Yeah, yeah. Really? And we're still close. Do you know what I mean? You know, we don't... Yeah.

But the thing is, the model of siblings that I see most of is Catherine Rage, who are just so insanely close that everything else pales in comparison. But, you know, in that they work together, they talk to each other a hundred times a day. If someone calls while we're eating dinner or... This is to remind everyone is Jack's wife and her sister. Yes. It's always, it's always Kath. Kath is always the one that's calling. Yeah, so that's, I suppose, but that's quite extreme in some ways.

Yes, exactly. So we're not like that, but we're still very close to each other. Yeah. When you were at school, what sort of kid were you like then? Were you? Quite studious. Yeah. I like drama, so I was always doing a bit of drama,

but I was never particularly, I was never the lead, you know. I was the lead, I think, when I was like seven, when I was Joseph in the technical dream coach. But that was it. From then on I was like background characters. You would have been a great Joseph. I was a very sweet. I was quite a gregarious seven-year-old.

That's interesting to me, Jack. And then that sort of faded away. But wanting to be on stage and doing all that, that doesn't seem to sort of tally with what you said, but is that because you're sort of hiding in a way? Does it mean you're playing a part? Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of actors like me.

But also, um, uh, drama, when you're a nerd and when you grew up in an age before, nerddom being... I just came back from Comic-Con and at Comic-Con, it was so fabulous to see my people so happy, surrounded by each other. And I never had that. And drama actually is a sort of nerddom. And so I think that's why drama really appealed to me. I think if comic books had been quite as accepted as they are now, it may have been a completely different life. for me. I love the idea of my people, it's true. It's quite tribal, isn't it? It's kind of, I get the sense that you felt other. Yes. When you were growing up. Yes. And I think people who feel other, I'm going to put that the other way around, actually. I think people who tend to excel in their field or, I know you're very modest, but, you know, I think you'll accept that you're high profile in your field. In my experience, particularly in the arts, there is often that sense of otherness, for whatever reason, you know, whether they're teaching. You know, whether they're noisy, whether they're too quiet, there is a sense I think they carry of not being quite

like everyone else. Yes. Or just that the people that get involved in those things tend to be the people that are other. What I mean is that the person who's Mary in the Nativity play every year and the person who's the cheerleader or the captain of the football team, I find it very reassuring that often that's where they peak. Apologies if you're currently the captain of the football team, but it's all downhill from here. No, I really do, because I think it is the the slightly the others that sort of tend to, it's a bit of a tortuters and I think it's strange just because I think you have got something to prove in a way. Yes. When did you first get the idea that, oh God, I'm good at writing? You know, people like what I do. Not till I, not till I was

at university. Really? Did you write as a kid? Did you do Jack's story or my life? My aunt told me that I did, but no one else can remember it in my family. Not really, no. I wrote quite imaginative history essays and things like that but no I was you know I was set on either politics or becoming or acting and writing for a living never really occurred to me

my A levels were politics history and economics and I did a degree in politics I was absolutely set on politics but you know yeah then I Then I went to the Young Labour Conference in 1997 and got involved in...

I actually was part of a walkout of Tony Blair's speech in 1997 which is quite early to be angry with Tony Blair. Sorry, Jack, you know what he's going near us? Why? Well, look over there. He gets a bit frightened of the crows. Well, they're quite frightening. They're quite big and there are stories about big birds

picking up chihuahuas and it happens. Well, Elliot is afraid of seagulled. and won't eat fish and chips on the beach because he's always worried that seagulls are going to nick him. He's right, though. I've seen the YouTube videos. But I sent an article to Rates the other day that was about a seagull picking up a small dog and carrying it off and said,

don't show this to Elliot, but you need to know that this is happening. Because we always are just trying to persuade him to come, because we go to the seaside quite often and we're always trying to persuade him to be okay with the fact that seagulls won't steal your food, Elliot. You're going to be all right. So Jack, you went to, you must have sort of stood out because you went to Cambridge.

Yes. And I imagine, without making any assumptions, you didn't, you know, you went to a comprehensive, didn't you in it? And in those days, it was a bit more elitist, wasn't it? It was harder to get into Cambridge, not coming straight, through the private system. So was that seen as something special? Yeah, yeah, we got our pictures in the local paper.

Everyone that was going from the school to Cambridge, Oxbridge got our pictures in the paper. So, yeah, no, it was sort of like, you know, it was a thing, you know. And my dad was very proud. Was he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, very proud of it. You know, I think it probably was a mistake. Why?

Because I wasn't very happy there. Why do you think you weren't happy? but I wouldn't have I wouldn't change it so I don't know whether you'd describe it as a mistake why was not happy because at Cambridge everyone everyone who goes to Cambridge thinks they're special and then you discover you're not really certainly not academically special and it's really if that's been a thing that's defined you you know doing well at school sort of was defining for me right you know it was something I was, an area I felt safe in. And then you go there and you discover that you're, you know, quite mediocre.

Yeah. If not below mediocre, I ended up with a two-two. And at Cambridge, that's rubbed, you know, that's really rubbish. I think that's like bottom 15% of the year or something. But did you find it difficult being around that sort of privilege, I guess? Yeah, yeah. First day at Cambridge, at my college, you had a thing called college families. where the students in the year above would become your college parents.

Right. And then you're put with a group of other first years. And the first night, I was paired with this guy called Dave. And I asked him what he did for fun. And he said, Beigling, chasing rabbits with dogs. That's what he like to do. and it was like, and he said to me, because obviously it's a small college,

so we knew each other. And I said to him later, you know, you were my fear of what Cambridge would be like. And he went, I'm going to be totally honest with you. You were my fear of what Cambridge would be like. I was going for a very nice school and suddenly surrounded by these oaks.

It wasn't, uh, so yeah. Okay, thanks a name, Jack. No, he's happy as Larry now. But, um, that's interesting because, you know, you, it's so interesting. like the end of the happy ending, the rom-com ending, isn't it? You see the wedding and then you never see the marriage. And that picture in the paper of you, that's what you see, oh, isn't it great, this boy.

And then actually you're the bastard who's got to do this thing. And it's not, it's complicated, isn't it? It was back then, I would imagine, just because... Yeah, I don't know whether really they have open up access. They keep saying they have, but then you look at the figures and you go, they have them. Yeah. And it does require... I was involved in the access campaign there to try and get kids in,

and then later I was involved bringing kids back to the university. And I still didn't feel like it was a place that genuinely seemed like it was welcoming. And I took Rach's there to... Yeah. For a... I did a thing... I bet they're all over you now, aren't they? Well, no, I went back because this guy, Mark Wormald, who I really, really like.

It was my senior tutor there and was really good to me. When I was a bit fragile, he was really good to me. And he asked me to come back and do a sort of thing with his English students where they just did a Q&A with me. And Rachel was like, this is extraordinary. It doesn't really... Do I mean? Like, you know, she's just like...

I genuinely didn't think this still existed, this place. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, yeah. I mean, it's still all... Barry's set in its ways. It's galloping. He's galloping. Yay, way, way. I'll keep him away from your undergraduate, mate.

Yeah, yeah. They'll set the beagles on him. Yeah. So, Jack, you got ill, didn't you, though, when you were at Cambridge? Are you happy to tell me what that is? No, no, no, no. So I had a thing called Connergicatoriaacaria, which is basically prickly heat. So it's not very spectacular, but I got it very chronically and became allergic to

artificial heat, so radiators, natural heat, so the sun, and then eventually body heat. So every time I moved, I was provoking reaction. So it was really, it was a really quite dark time. And so, yes, in Cambridge they call it degrading. I degraded myself. Well, I did that at university. And I had to leave.

So I left for six months and laid, black on my back. Do you look back, though, and think that was, there was part of that as well, which was the stress didn't help it. Do you know what I mean? Psychologically. No, I had this discussion with the consultant the other day about whether it was psychosomatic, because I think it was basically a mental breakdown

that was disguising itself as a physical breakdown. And people understood less about that then. Absolutely. And the doctor was like, maybe, maybe, you know, but also it could just have been a reaction in your body. My theory has always been that it was a mental breakdown because it was my third term, the final term, the exam. Ray.

He's not going to listen to me. He might. Ray, Ray, Ray. You have to raise your voice. Ray. Ray. He looked, Jack. He did it.

Do it again, Jack. Ray. Oh, no, he's gone to the... I'm so sorry. He's looking at a woman. I'm so sorry. Raymond. That's what rejection bills like.

Yay. Good boy. that was amazing that was amazing you tested me and I failed dog smell fear jack yeah absolutely so yeah so that

I don't think I don't think anyone could be afraid of Ray no so yeah so I think that's probably there's probably truth in that isn't there that there was some yes I think there's a lot of truth in that and it was the

the third term of my second year it was exam term I was trying to do two plays that term and I was wasn't well mentally and I was drinking like eight cans of coke a day and, you know.

Are you, were you writing by that stage, Jack? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. My first year, I started writing plays. And I did it because I realized I wasn't going to be an actor and I thought I'd like to be a director. And then I realized how much it cost

to get amateur rights to a play, 65 pounds a night. And I was like, I'll write a play and so save myself 300 quid. Of course, saving exercise. Exactly, exactly. And then I did, and it turned out all right. Or it didn't, but it was more fun than anything else. And so you went back and got your degree, finally, and then you ended up, did you, you lived with your brother, didn't you? I lived my brother for five years in Croydon. He put me up while I was trying to write, and he was amazing to me.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, charged me a small amount of rent, but not much. You know, just like enough to keep. keep the lights on. Yeah. And I was teaching a bit, but it allowed me to do, to write. And, you know, yeah, my brother was very good to me. And you're famously incredibly disciplined about writing. You know, I mean, you're sort of a bit of a 16-hour day, man, under deadlines. Was that something that started then, or is that only now that...

No, no, no. I've always been, you know, the word I most hate is prolific, because that's what people say about me. Can you edit that out of the beginning? I think I said that. No, no, it's good. Why do you hate that word? Because I think it sounds cheap. I think it sounds like you don't care.

I think it's like you accumulate. Do you know, you become like someone that's just like accumulating things. And I think that's the worry. But I always was that way. I was always writing multiple plays at once. No one was reading the plays, but I was writing them because I like to write more than one thing at once

because if I write one thing at once I stop sleeping because I start worrying about about how bad a writer I am that you know you get stuck do you still get even after the five baffters the Olivia and the Tony do you still God every day yeah

get really yeah yeah that's what's I never get that way yeah sure I like this what is it Jack it's a nice I've no idea but that's Buckingham Palace There, so, yeah. Right, you're not going to get that tall guy, Joel. You're going to have to do better than that.

That's Bucking and Pearlis right there. Come on. Is it? No, it's not... Oh, Ray's running towards it. It's a fountain in Green Park. It's probably a really famous memorial. It's probably like Princess Diana thing or something. I don't think it's Diana, because she's the rings in singing, isn't she? Go and look at that, Jack. You're good at words.

You can read that. Canada Memorial. How is it? Unveiled by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth in the present... Well, it's hardly... far for her to travel. Don't act like that's a big deal. Everyone came. Look. Her mum was there.

Andrew was there, Philip, there was there. You know, everyone came. Literally rolled out of bed and set three steps. Princess Margaret came. It's lovely. I like this. As a mark of respect, please refrain from climbing way. Come on. But it looks like a really fun slide for kids.

That's the problem, isn't it? It's got water, I know. And that doesn't seem a mark of respect. Exactly. I'm worried that Ray's going to leave a mark of respect. He's about to do it on a tree, that's better. People talk about this work ethic of yours and how you don't see it as work in a way. Is that right or do you?

Yeah, I really love it. I really love it. And when I'm weird and Rachel thinks that I'm being weird, she'll send me off to write because that's the way of... What do you mean weird? Well, just like... You're not. not feeling, you're not being, you're not in a good head space. Exactly. Not, not comfortable and

just seem like, you know, like, yeah, that Rachel will send me off to write to sort myself out, you know, and that once I've done some writing, I come back down. It's almost like I feel, from what you said so far, like writing felt like your little escape, your little fantasy world that you created where you felt safe. Yeah, yeah, to some degree, but also, you know, it's incredibly stressful and not really an escape anymore, but I love it and I feel like, and I feel like the luckiest person in the world, you know, that I get to do it for my life. Yeah. Do you fear judgment when you write something?

Yes, all the time. It's the most, apart from stand-up comedy, I would say it's the most naked you can be. I wanted to mention this is England just because that started your partnership with Shane Meadows. This England was amazing. And how did you, did you just know with him? Was it like meeting sort of a woman in a way, like Rachel, where you? you think, okay, there's something good between us. Do you know what to mean?

No, no, no, no. It was like meeting a woman that's way out of your league and hoping that they... God, you're not the first to say that. I'm not the first to say that. I think you're the most brilliantly suited couple ever, by the way. Yes, but she's still out of my league. But when we have my mum's, mum and dad's wedding anniversary and she met my auntie. Yeah. And they were talking, everyone was talking, and someone said,

where did you meet her, Luton? I was living in Luton at the time. And my auntie was like, you don't get cheekbones like that in Luton. I was like, you do. You do, by the way, Luton's an amazing place. She was making very clear that Rachel was out of my league, which everyone knows. But yeah, meeting Shane was like that. You know what I mean?

You know, it was like, it was a, you know, Guardian soulmates where you turned up. And your picture was actually a bit of a lie, and her picture massively underestimated her. And also, she was a nuclear physicist. Is this Shane, not Rachel? There is, it's also true for Rachel. And so you're just kind of like constantly trying to live up to a false impression of yourself that you think the other person might have got. I'm sorry, sorry. Honestly, he's doing anything you can.

Ray just leaps over to strangers. It's really, I'm so sorry. No, she's loving it. I know, but you have to check. Oh, so your way is constantly to say sorry on the basis that you... You have to assume that everyone hates dogs. Right, okay, okay.

But no one hates your dog, more or less. Well, I think if you say sorry... Yeah, then you're in a positive position. It's quite manipulative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because what happens is they're immediately say, don't worry. You're lowering your status. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. That's not going to happen. But no, I do. I do that. Yeah. Because that's the one thing that I love about, look at his tongue sticking it, I love about dog walks, is that... You get to meet strangers. Yeah, I do actually, Jack.

Yeah, yeah. I get to meet people who know nothing about me and I know nothing about them. And oddly, I find that... You get that with prams too, because you're available. I think with kids, once they reach a certain age, you're so in an exclusive world. Yeah, you're immersed. But with a pram, you're just walking along and just trying to get the kids to sleep. So you'll have only yourself talking to people.

I find it comforted or with a dog. Or smiting of people. Yeah. Well, what it meant for me was when I wanted, particularly when I was going through multiple bereavements, it offered me human connection without invasion, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

I felt seen and I felt like I was part of the human race, but there were no questions and that sort of what I wanted. So no strings sex sort of thing. Basically, I like what I was. stands in the park with my Shih Tzu. I should go to Hampsteadie. So Jack, yeah, so we were talking about Shane and that's how you worked together on...

This is England and you've continued to work together. And in fact, I'm sure people will be aware of the virtues, which is you and Shane, that's one of your most recent collaborations. Yes. With Stephen Graham and... Yes. I mean, I think it's still available on Channel 4 catch up. I have no idea.

I don't know. but it's honestly one of the most staggering pieces of drama that I've ever seen and you must watch it because it's extraordinary. It's absolutely extraordinary. Stephen Graham is so brilliant in it. And there's a bit in it as well, Jack, where he falls off the wagon very early on, doesn't he? And he goes into a pub and it's, to me, I think it taught me in that whatever length it is, seven minutes or whatever that scene.

It's quite a long scene because you and Shane like a long scene. And it taught me more about alcoholism, but also pain and why people are drawn to that and self-medicate, than anything I've read or seen. It was so powerful. I mean, I can take no credit for that. It's all Stephen and Shane. And it was, I agree. It's amazing.

I mean, so much of it was Shane facing his personal demons. And that's why it felt an extraordinary thing to be part of. And, you know, it all started with Shane and I. in a room in Nottingham in a leisure centre, no art centre somewhere just in a little white room and Shane literally just told me

what happened to him and... Because he had a trauma when he was younger, didn't he? He never really dealt with, yeah. He didn't know about it. It was a repressed memory and it was about him meeting that and honestly

Shane's taught me so much about writing but also about what kind of human you want to be and there's stuff that he said to me like he said to me once I was worried about what kind of dad I was going to be and he said that you know we're just you know he just like the things that he says are just so specific and poetic and wonderful he's just blessed with this incredible incredible head on him and and you know and he's had a hard time and he's so amazing in terms of his ethics that I'm always in awe of him. Has he sort of been a mentor?

You know, you know, those people in your life that you think my life would have been different without them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've been lucky, I've had a few of those. Your brother-in-law. Yes. I think my life would be different without him. Like, he's changed.

Well, my life would be different without Frank. Yeah. But your life, yeah, no, that thing of just like, you know, telling you that you had a voice for radio. Yeah. Thanks, Frank. But believing in, you know, saying, it sounds so naff and sort of X-Fact.

to journey but it's it's to do with um it's to do with also it feels like with you and Shane that was sort of you were slightly singing from the same hymn sheet one thing i read about though which is your relationship doesn't he said didn't he say once you're in a writing room and he held up a piece of paper and said this is shit it wasn't in a writing room it was in a it was in a in a re-s-n't get way away from that big doggy so it was in a read-through of this thing in 86 and he uh and he um lent down it was episode episode three and he went, lent down and he just wrote across my script, this is shit. And readers are about the most stressful space for a TV writer you can get in.

You know, the channels there, all the actors are there, you're fitting personally on the line. It's the last time the scripts are sort of judged before it becomes about filming. So it's like the most crucial time when things get fixed over and Shane was just like, this is shit. And I love him for it. Did you think he was changing the title of This England? But were you upset? I think I would have been upset.

I was concerned and worried whether we were going to fix it, but I loved him for doing it. Did he? And he was right, it was. And then we rewrote it. And we rewrote it overnight, in fact, because that's all the time we had before he started filming. But then that suggests to me that you're able to park your ego

in a way that I'm not sure many people would be able to. But that's TV writing. TV writing's all about it. You know, there's a lot of ego-filled TV writers, but there's so many reasons why your ego gets threatened in TV writing and you've got to be able to get through it and I'm not saying I'm egoless, I'm just saying that. No, I still think that takes a strength of character

and I guess belief in your own ability. I think I'd have cried. I think it would have taken me six months to think, oh yeah, he's right. And I would have come to the same conclusion as you, but I think I would have cried, called eight people. I said, well, should I do what calmly? You're humiliated. You know what I mean?

And that's... Your reaction was... It strikes me as very calm. But in theatre and tele, you are constantly being challenged about whether your work is good enough. Yeah? Whereas in books and on the radio,

you don't quite have the same sort of level of feedback. I need someone to go, this is shit. Right. That's part of my safety net. Um, so Jack, I want to talk... Because I'm aware I can't keep you all afternoon, which I want to.

But I want to talk. I want to talk about Harry Potter. Yes. I always feel kind of guilty bringing it up because I feel you probably have to talk so much about it. But it is something you must be very proud of. No, very proud to be proud. When I watched you on the South Bank show,

which you had recently, and again, it's absolutely brilliant. People should check it out. I think it's on Sky Art, so you can get it there. But Melvin Bragg, he's so proper, he kept saying the cursed child. I didn't even know it's that. And I thought, oh, I'd better say cursing. because Bragg says cursed.

I've always said cursed. Can you tell us how to pronounce it? I say cursed, but I'm not Melvin Bragg. I would trust Melvin Bragg over me any day. How do you get a call like that? Is it like being made Doctor Who? I mean, the secrecy must have been extraordinary. No, no, no, it really is like that.

And it was just my friend John Tiffany, who directed it. We were going to the South Bank Show Awards because we'd been nominated for Let the Right One In, a play that we've done together. Yes. And hello. Hello. Oh, darling little girl.

Oh, hello. Isn't she lovely, Jo? You're lovely. Aren't you lovely? She likes the doggy. So it's a kid's TV show? Waffle. Yes, Waffle dog. Does he look like Waffle?

No, the Waffle is bigger than me. Bye. Bye. Bye. You've got to have boundaries with this. God, I've got to have boundaries with his fans. It's like the Bieber mania. It was great.

Yeah, so go on. So tell me about, so the secrecy you were saying about when you got the Harry Potter gig. Well, it was just literally John and I walking down the street. And then the secrecy came from then when it was like we needed to install certain firewalls on our computer. Did he say, do you want to do this? Or did he say he was doing it? He said he was doing it. And I was like, that's amazing, mate.

That's such an amazing gig. And then he was like, do you want to do it? And yeah. Because you brought your coffee. I fell off the pavement. It was amazing. It was amazing. And, you know, still, like the most ridiculously generous act.

And how did you get on? She's not JK to you, is she? Joe. Yes. Again, is it rolling or rowling? J.K. Rowling or J.K. Rowling? Rowing, I say. I trust you.

Now I'm really worried that I get that wrong. Can we check with Melbourne? No, but that's like being asked, you know, about certain, I know, the thing that I always worry is. that someone's going to sit me down and make me do a Harry Potter quiz, just see whether I was capable of writing these plays. Were you nervous about meeting her? Had you met her, or was it?

I was nervous about meeting her, but writers tend to get on okay with other writers. Sometimes it doesn't work out. So I wasn't that scared, scared. And then I met her, and she's so extraordinary that it was just really, really easy. And she remains one of the most... I've drawn many people I've ever met. Really?

Yeah. In what way, Jack? What would you... Just so trusting. Really? So interested, so excited. So un-cinical. Yeah.

You know, I think certain people get to that level of acclaim and sort of get scared of it. And certain people just adjust to being who the world wants them to be. And she just is a magnificent human being. Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Because as you say, yeah, People say that often you remain the age you were when you got famous. Right, okay.

Right, right, right. And some people... So for you, that's like eight. That's six? No, I wasn't ever famous. But I mean, that... No, when was quartermaster? When was...

No, excuse me, Dare the Triffitz. Day of the Triffids. Sorry. I mean, call yourself a geek. Call yourself a nerd. You're letting nerds everywhere down. But, you know, I would say, well, in your case, I would say that makes you permanently about 32.

No, no, no, no, no, because writers don't get famous. So I'm okay. In a way, my dad always said to me, he said writing, when I was really young, he said, writing is the best kind of fame. And I said, what do you mean? I mean, I was really young when he told me this. And he said, I was really young when he told me everything, particularly shocking things. But he said, well, take Martin Amos.

I'm six. I don't know who you mean. Anyway, take Martin Amos. He said he can go into the Ivy or any restaurant of your choice and he can call up and get a table. Yeah. But he doesn't get hassled on the street.

So he has respect, but he doesn't interfere with his life. Would you say that's true? No, because playwrights, unless you're Tom Stoppard or, you know, like writers, book writers have got a thing that they take with them.

playwrights and TV writers, we're largely anonymous. I'm not going to let you have that. No, that's true. But you were called the dickens of your generation. Yeah, in a magazine article. I'm not letting you have that, actually. I think you don't, you, you're very modest

and you're very humble. Do you think... It's false. Do you, no, I don't think it's false. But I'm interested as to why I think... It feels a bit problematic for you sometimes. Like, in terms of, I don't really want to talk to people ever. The weird thing about being, Frank's going to his brother-in-law,

he's come up quite a lot in this conversation, but that's because he's a... He'll be thrilled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That level of intrusion, I think is really, I wouldn't be able to cope with that at all. No. And going to parties where people might know who I am, Yeah, no, I don't like that bit. Do you know?

No, I don't really, because I don't know what to say to people. It's like when those kids were playing with this, there was so much I wanted to say to those kids, and there's so much that I didn't say, and it was like actually being able to talk to them will mean that they've had a nicer time with the dog. And I can actually put it on when I'm with Elliot. I can talk to other kids, and I do talk to other kids,

and play with the other kids. But in situations like this where I just think, why would that odd man but yeah yeah I think sometimes the people that don't shout about it

have the most interesting things to say but they're often letting other people down through their silence do you think so when I bought Rach's to meet my family for the first time

were you nervous yeah hugely nervous and Rach's had two things gave me feedback on two things when she left she was like the first thing was I'm never playing Monopoly

with those people ever again why because like you know competitiveness taken to the next level. And the second thing was, you didn't actually say anything all weekend. She was like, you were bringing me to your family and you just left me hanging.

That I had to do all the conversation. And thankfully, my parents could talk for China and so just kept on jabbering away. But that thing of just like leaving someone defenceless, I'm very capable of doing that. But possibly that's because you, I think we adapt to our roles when we're in our family environment.

And I think if that was always, oh, there's Jack upstairs doing this thing. Subconsciously, you think I'm going to be Jack here. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Okay, but then my long-term theatre, Rachel Taylor, after a press night where she saw me at a press night just sitting in the corner talking to no one,

said, you have a responsibility to say thank you to people, you know, for the fact that they've got involved in your play. and you may think it's okay to be shy but actually you do have a weight as the writer and you have to be responsible for that weight. Well, I'm glad she didn't represent J.D. Salinger. I mean, what would he have said to that speech? Well, he was a book writer.

So he wasn't, it was less collaborative. But I see what you're saying. So tell me, Jack, about when you met Rachel, your wife? Yes. The lady of which her leave. was much higher. I was on a train going down to Cornwall and our mutual friend Chloe, Moss, who's a script editor, it was a script editor on Skins with me. And we were going down because it was a friend of hers was running a TV festival, TV and film festival in Cornwall.

And so Chloe had asked me to come down and talk and Rachel was going down to support the same friend and it was a six-hour train journey and we talked for a lot of it. And then it became this sort of thing that we talked all weekend. She was with someone. And then we talked all weekend. And then I didn't see her for three years. Maybe it was two years. Oh, it's like the notebook.

Yeah. But everyone kept talking about us to each other. That Danielle, who was the woman who was running that federal, referred to me to Rachel as her husband. She said your husband was in the office again today. because she worked at Channel 4, and she'd be like, your husband was in the office again today, talking about whatever I was working on at Channel 4,

and doing all that kind of stuff and sort of gently teasing Rachel about it. And then when she split up with this guy, she got in contact, and then I was with someone, and then we just sort of, like, ended up together, and it felt right from the start. You know, I don't know what it was. Were you nervous, like, taking her out on dates and things? Because you know when you really like someone?

No, never. That's interesting, isn't it? I don't get... I occasionally get nervous around Rach, but not much. Rach is like... He felt comfortable? Yeah. It was like we've always just sort of fitted together.

And how does she... You had... I went to your wedding. Yes. Which was one of the loveliest weddings I've been to, I think, because... We were in the same hotel. You were in the marital hotel. Can I just really apologise publicly?

Basically, what happened was that I... booked into a hotel. You basically looked for the plushest hotel in the area and you ended up in that hotel and that hotel was where we had the bride was. So I went back and then I felt so bad the next morning as Rachel and Jack were having this romantic marital breakfast and I'm like, only me. And I was going to say what I loved about your wedding. First of me, you gave quite a really funny speech. And it was... My sister gave a funnier speech. My sister's speech was amazing.

It was absolutely brilliant. Yeah. My sister gave a speech, which was she looked online and she found all the things that people can find attractive in another person. She said, I can't do a speech. My sister was my best man. And she said, I can't do a speech about what porn and, you know what I mean like, you know, all that stuff. Because frankly, I don't know and I wouldn't want to know. She said, but what I can do is talk about the thing that I do know.

about which is why not would anyone ever be attracted to my brother and she did this thing which was just like all the ways that people are attracted to each other and and she went down the list i think the end was um money was the last sort of factor and she went oh rage all right all right i just think was the best guy you know like you know so she was amazing she got my nephew and niece involved and was just like she was so brilliant and you know what she shamed me in every way she possibly could shame but what i felt about that wedding Firstly, I loved it because you had complementary flip-flops for us. Yes.

Secondly, I loved it. Care of mother-in-law Sandy is also an amazing woman. Secondly, I loved it because what you asked for was books. You asked everyone to give a book that meant something to them and sign it. Their favourite book. It was, it made a change from the usual, you know, can I have a washing machine from John Lewis, please. I want the expensive one as well, you take it. And I think mostly what I loved about it, I don't know.

You don't follow football? Bouncer castle. Did you see the Bouncy Castle? We had a bouncy castle. You didn't? Yeah, we did. We had a bouncy castle for the kids because we wanted everyone to bring their kids.

I was at the Rital Hotel. Sorry, stealing your suite. But what I also love, Jack, was, you know, there's an expression in football which is play the game, not the occasion. Yes. I don't know if you've ever heard that. So, you know, the idea that if you've got a Champions League final,

you have to just play your normal game. The bigness of the day, it's not about that. about the spirit and the passion of the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I felt that about your wedding, that it felt like it was about you. You know, it often gets lost that, doesn't it? That's really nice.

That's really nice. Rachel didn't stop smiling all day. Like, you know, that she had this, my wife is known as the Princess and the Peace. She can find discomfort in anything. She cuts all the things, your washing instructions. Oh, yeah.

She has to cut everything of those out because it just irritates her too much. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, she can only sleep on, like, the most amazing pillows and all this other kind of stuff. Luckily you're doing so well. She's a ridiculous woman. But she had to wear this, she wore this piece of metal on her head,

this really heavy piece of metal on her head. And normally that would have killed her, but she just didn't stop smiling all day. I remember because when she tried it on, it was the only time she ever lost it. You were at the, you were at the... She never did Bridesaula, because that's not Rachel's way. She's a very calm person, isn't she?

But it was the one moment where she threatened to get out of control, where she said, Kathy and your nephew bars and I were talking. You were choosing the wedding dress together? We were looking at the headdress and she put it on and we were just momentarily distracted by buzz and she went, look, and everybody just focus. I said right now you're becoming, don't tell the bride. She was like, oh yeah.

So you've done well on the waft. I think you really did meet your soulmate with Rach. And I think your relationship is lovely. Yeah, and we're almost eight years in now and it still feels like that. What do you deal with the sort of workaholism sort? You know, like, do you have a deal with her? Is that hard for her? Was that hard for her to accept?

It was hard for her at the beginning. It's less of a deal now. At the beginning, it was like I'd have at least half a day off a week. Now it's like, you know, we've got Elliot, so it's very different. I don't work as much as I used to. And your son, Elliot, who was named after? The lead character, Neatie. Yes, yes.

Oh, look, there's a beagle. That worries me. A beagle's vicious. That beagle looks all right, do you think? Yeah. He doesn't mean you harm. You know the most beautiful dog story I've ever heard? What?

You listen to Desert Island Discs? David Knott on Desert Island Discs, who was this trauma surgeon who specialised. And he talks about meeting the Queen. And he was just back from Syria or somewhere really dark like that. And from being in a conflict zone. And he had PTSD. He said, I have PTSD every time I come back. And he was sat on the Queen's left side.

And the Queen has this thing where she talks to the person on the right side for 45, minutes and then she turned to and so you know she'd had that conversation for 45 minutes he'd been waiting for 45 minutes for the queen to turn to him she turned to him and she she said you know she started making conversation and he wasn't being forthcoming at all and she and she went you're in a bit of trouble aren't you the queen said the queen said and he was like yeah yeah i am and she said would you like to play with my dogs with me and she signalled to them to come over with with doggy biscuits and they played with her dogs under the table for 45 minutes. This woman that's been the regent of our country for so long

and she still has this strange humanity. I wouldn't have that expected. Exactly. You really wouldn't and it was just, it's beautiful. Isn't it apt with having this conversation right by her house? Maybe she can, you just want her to hear you so you can get the old knighthood. What if you get the knighthood? Would you accept tonight, Jack? I don't think that's so worthwhile.

Well, I think you'd worry it might be a bit, your parents might not... I think there's a big... You know, when that thing, when everyone... You know, Amanda Anucci is like, I took it for my mum, I took it for, you know what I mean? It's like, my parents would be like, don't take it.

So I can't give that excuse. Does that still influence, that parental thing? Do you think we all carry that round with us? So, for example, I know you're not a big fan of London, are you? No, I hate it, yeah. Do you hate it? Why? I don't hate it quite as much as I used to.

I used to really hate it because it's miserable. It's like full of, like if you sit on that tube and you look across and no one's, everyone's had such hard days and it just seems like that you can feel the weight of their days. There's a lack of lightness in this city. But that said, having spent time in other cities, this is, you know what I mean? That's what I have a dog though. Because people are human. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, no, I hear you. I think the territorial hostility melts away a bit, you know, that people have. So would you like to move, ideally? Yes, but Rachel wouldn't, and that's fine. You know, Rachel basically said, when we were moving in together, she said, I'll move anywhere within about half a mile of where we currently live, where I currently live. She's a reasonable woman. Exactly, exactly.

Does that sort of London thing, I mean, I understand, there are genuine reasons for that. But is there a part of it that you think is partly, a historical, familial childhood thing, which is it feels decadent. Like coming to, you know, London. Do you know what I mean, though? Yeah, yeah, no, no, maybe.

I just, I find it oppressive. Yeah, I would rather live somewhere else. It's noisy, yeah. But, you see, I'd happily live on a desert island with just Rachel and Elliot for the end of my days. If I could send scripts to people and then they make them. And, you know, I like that bit.

In Fleming. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You want his life. Tell me about Elliot, because he's such a lovely little boy. I think so. He really is, actually.

Awesome. Yes. And in terms of you bringing him up, I mean, I always quote your lines from your plays. I do attribute them to you. But there's something which really stuck with me. And whenever I mention it to a parent, they go, oh, God, that's clever.

from the cursed child or the cursed child, if you're Melbourne Bragg. And it's talking about pain, life being pain essentially, you know, and painful. And is it Dumbled or Jack, who says it's you have to teach them how to meet life? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you, I want to know, because that's a line that I quote a lot, and now I've got the person who wrote it next to me. And I find it very inspiring, especially when I look at, I guess, that whole thing of helicopter, parents,

and people talk about that a lot. What did you mean by it? I'm still... And do you do it? Do you think you'll be able to do it? I don't know. And that thing of working out the level of honesty you want to bring your kid up with

is the thing that I struggle with most and think about most. And, you know, there was a long period where Rachel had to basically tell me to stop projecting on to when Elliot was 15. I was just constantly trying to fight that thing. But when you were talking about unhappy teenagers and how unhappy teenagers sometimes lead more fulfilled lives,

you don't always know that that's the case. So you want your kid to be the captain of the football team, the star at the Mary and the school play. You want the kid to be all those things. And I desperately hope he is all those things. but, you know, that thing of trying to work out how to protect him, but also how to, you know, like he's going to be going to a state school. Is he? We decide that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that important to you? Very important because... Why is that? Because I think our country is completely screwed up, and I think part of the reason why it's screwed up is because there's such a hierarchy involved in, you know, our initial steps into this world.

And it's really important that, Elliot knows who people are and knowing who people are means meeting a wide range of people and having a wide range of friends and you know and you know I wouldn't if I hadn't had a comprehensive education I think it'd be a lot harder doing my job there are writers obviously who are private and public school educated but I think that for when you're writing characters in particular it's really really important that you know a wide range of characters in order to write them

I think it's interesting because not going on about him, but I look at, again, someone like Frank, Skinner, and I would describe him. You know, a lot of comics or a lot of, you could say, high status, high profile people. Yes. You know, it's that classic thing of the more successful you get, the more money you make.

Yeah. The more you disconnect yourself and isolate yourself. Money and fame and success can be very isolating and it means you have less to contribute in terms of your art. But I would say Frank is an example of someone who throws himself into life, he never isolates himself. He gets the tube, he gets the bus,

he chats to people, he's just... Well, he quite likes being recognised. Do you know what I mean? No, no, but that's an amazing thing after 30 years to not be bothered about people coming up to you. Not be bothered. You know, like, genuinely not bothered. He said to me, I don't understand

why people wouldn't use the hotel restaurant. I mean, why would you sit in your room when no one's going to recognise you? Yeah, and when he did Richard Iowardy's 48 hours, in and they were in Switzerland and he was like I don't like being abroad I know who I am here but he's someone who hasn't

but he's someone who I'm saying he also celebrates his own success which is an amazing quality and and something I envy and something I really admire in him so do you think with Elliot then it's the case of just roots and wings but how's that relating to it was relating when you were talking about the private school

education. Yes. And I'm saying I would agree with that, but I also think it's to do with, there's an element of choice and free will there, which is you can either choose to let money and privilege become a prison. Yes. Or you can say, right, I'm still going to engage in life. Yeah.

I just, but I think that's two separate things in that I think it's about that, you know, that your hopes as to what your kid is going to be. that my only hope for Elliot is that, A, he's happy. Yeah. And that this is not an only, is it, if you've got two? But, and B, that he's self-aware. If he's got those two qualities, then he'll be all right whatever he does. You know, my mum would cut me off also if I...

Would you? Yeah. Do you think she would? Oh, yeah. It's something she's incredibly... Well, she can't cut you off financially. I mean, that ship's sales. You're doing all right for yourself, love.

You're the one who never wants to be cut off from. But yeah. You wouldn't get a Christmas card, you know. I want to tell you something, Buzz, your nephew, Franks and Kath's son. Yes. I asked him because he knew I was interviewing you. Oh, right, okay. And I said...

What question would you ask? Yeah, I just said, what would you say as some lovely things about Uncle Jack? What are the best things about Jack? So these are the three things that Buzz said he, like most of the most of him. about you. Oh God. Three. Wow. Three things. As much as three, I'm very happy. Yeah. Okay. Number one. Yeah.

His writing. He hasn't seen anything in mind. No, he came to Christmas Carol. He came to Christmas Carol. So I'm relying on the fact that he saw Christmas Carol and realised. I don't know if he's seen the virtues. I hope not. Number one, his writing, or national

treasure. Number two, his kindness. Oh, that's very Sweet. Number three, his swimming. I love that that's a quality of yours. You're swimming. I mean, I want to see. What is this, Phelps? I mean, what kind of swimmer are you? I'm just a very keen sea swimmer. I'm the one that's taken buzz deepest in the sea. I would say that's definitely true. I take him, me and him go swimming. Do you know what I mean? I took him about a month ago, I held him up in the sea, that he was on his own in the sea. was swimming in the sea.

Wow. Because Frank is a bit, well, Frank is frightened of water. Yes, me too, actually a bit. So when Buzz and I are together, we do things like jumping over waves. So I'm amazed. Those are the three qualities. His writing. So kindness, which is just a word that he would apply to more or less anyone because he

assumes that everyone is sort of kind. His writing and... His swimming. His swimming. Brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks, Buzz. So I like that, Buzz.

And I would agree, I can't. seen you in action swimming. Well, it's a glorious thing. I just imagine, yeah, just imagine you sort of a fish. I'm certainly a big fan of your writing. Yes. And I would definitely describe you as probably one of the kindest people I've met. Definitely, I think

you've got such a good, pure heart, Jack. I really do. I've always felt that about you. That's very kind. It's a lie, but it's very kind. But you don't have to dismantle the nice thing, because it's true. That's my perception of you. Awesome. Yes. But you're an

example also of someone who seems utterly, utterly uncorrupted by money and success. And that's very rare. I'm talking about your profile and your work. You know, not to be how much money you've got in a bank. I'm just saying fame and success. And you would say, oh, I'm not famous. But I would say you're not corrupted by it. And that's hard. That's very nice. I don't know whether it's that hard. Let me introduce you to a few people. I know how lucky I am. And You know, I feel like I've lucked into something which I was never expecting to luck into, and I do still have that.

I also think it might disappear at any moment, which isn't a very good quality, because it means that you're constantly... I think it is, because you never take it for granted. You never take it for granted, but you're also constantly insecure. You know, the thing that I'm trying to do more of at the moment is to sort of be a bit more inclusive with people

and say, like, I've really... realise now that I am the establishment to some degree to some people and so I've got to be the one that says well done rather than expecting them to say well done to me and and I'm learning all those things slowly but you know that and that can't you can't you can't you can't be someone that expects you know that you know that you have a responsibility as a leader yeah jumping that you know which right is sort of our leaders weird leaders but leaders and you've got to live up to that responsibility and that means that you're the one that goes you don't wait for them to go this is a great script, you go, that was an amazing performance, or I loved how you directed that,

all that sort of stuff. You've got to be the one that does it because actually they probably won't say that to you anymore. I want to ask you something before we go and meet you're aware. Do you cry, Jack? Not that often. I cry in films. The last time I really remember crying in... RRL, as the kids say. Yeah, in real life, yes. Was, um, was, uh, was, uh, was when we chose the music that Rachel was going to walk down the aisle to. That genuinely was. It sounds so pathetic and romantic and everything else.

But genuinely, we're in Cornwall again. We were going to Danielle's wedding, the woman who'd organised the thing. And we were in a higher car. And we were listening to Meow Meow, the singer. And we both said, I really liked this song and then I went maybe this is your

processional music and she went I loved that and I started to cry and it's really weird and I still to this day don't quite know do I mean like you know it was a really weird sort of chemistry I love that yeah I really loved our walk Jack

and I just think you're such good company I could have bought with you for hours that's good I'm sorry if I was inarticulate and I'm sorry for all the ums and the eres uh uh and then do you know what I mean you know I have this really weird, that really weird speech thing of going, Oh, sorry, wow.

What's happened, Jack? Do you want to explain what's happened? Ray has just joined a picnic by look of things. And it's just literally settled down to stay there forever. Do you see what I mean? I always think. I thought we were kindred souls, but he literally makes friends with everyone. So we're not kindred souls to any degree.

Well, this is what I mean. Yeah. You do realize it is a bit like you're charging, he's charging by the hour. Does he know how attractive he is? Yes, he does. Right, okay. He's Beber. He's Justin Bieber. He is Justin Bieber. He's Justin Bieber the early years, with the haircut.

But look at people's faces. All you see, when I see people go over to him, I see happiness. He's lifting up his sandwich away from him. He's like not letting that dog anywhere. I'm so sorry, guys. He makes people happy and I like that. No, no, no, right. That's amazing that you think he knows how attractive he is.

That's cool. Yeah, he does. Yeah, I've loved our walk, Jack. I've loved to see your play The End of History. We can't talk about all your work, because you're two, to use one of your favourite words, prolific. But it's really brilliant, and unfortunately, it is about to finish at the Royal Court. But you can get that, can people, you should read it though,

because everything you write, I think I would read anyway, and I have read. That's very kind. Are we allowed to mention that you're doing his dark materials? Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course, yeah, yeah. That'll be on in November, I think. Is that filming at the moment? Yeah, series two is filming at the moment. That's going to be so exciting.

So we're filming series two before series one has aired. Yeah. So, yeah. So what do you think about dogs now after our walk? I think they don't like me. But, you know, yeah, he's a very nice dog. He's a very nice dog. Do you think that?

I think it was a real success. Look. He's in your arms, doing everything you can to look away from me. which is fine. But I think he's a good... Elliot really likes him. Elliot does like him, but I think this is important that Elliot, exactly.

He... Elliot can't be afraid of dogs. It's so my nephew, my nephew, Zach and Kaelan, they're afraid of dogs. Really? And they're amazing boys, but it's just so... It's so hard when a dog appears,

they really are frightened. Yeah. And I just, you know, yeah, that's tough. I'm going to make sure that Ray is always in Elliot's life. Awesome. Because to be honest, he does look a bit like E.T. Yes. More like an EWOP, but, you know, a little bit.

Yeah. Oh, don't split hairs. Yeah. I'll make sure that he'll be right here. Ety literally doesn't have any hair. Does that make you cry? I'll be right here. That makes me cry more than anything in the world, that line in E.T.

Well, this is my favourite line for me too. Be good. Jack Scott Be Good, tattooed on his wrist. And I'm actually going to cry. Honestly. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. That is so lovely.

little sister's 40th birthday present to me. It was, yeah. Oh, that's so lovely. Oh, that's made me feel a bit of totes emoji. Because I love that film. Yeah. All right, Jack. Shall I put Ray down and we'll have a hug?

Yes, yes. Are you going to sing around to say hi to Ray? So you've got to get back. No, I'm going to wait. Where's your wife? I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.