Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - James Middleton (Part One)

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

We’re in Berkshire this week with the brilliant James Middleton and five of his dogs: Mabel, Isla, Luna, Inca and Nala. James *actually* has six dogs - but Zulu is currently staying with James��� parents, Michael and Carole Middleton, because Mabel is in season. But we had a lovely time with the fabulous five!We met on Bucklebury Farm - which is run by James’ family - and it was animal heaven. We met sheep, ginea pigs and even a friendly beehive at one point! James tells us about his lifelong pining for a dog - and then his unconventional decision to get a cocker spaniel called Ella while he was studying at Edinburgh University - and then how she went on to change his life immessurably. He also tells us the story of doing a reading at his sister Catherine’s wedding to Prince William - and how Ella helped him to overcome his anxiety. Follow James on Instagram @jmidy James' brilliant new book about the dog who changed his life is out now. Buy your copy of Meet Ella here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think I was wonderfully naive, perhaps, about what it actually meant. I was just thinking I was doing a reading at my sister's wedding. And how many people were to be watching? Well, subsequently, I think it's around 2 billion. So, yeah, I think it's still the record for the largest Bible reading ever. This week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and I popped up to Berkshire to take a stroll with the very wonderful James Middleton. And his gorgeous dogs, wait for it because there's a lot of them.

Zulu, Inka, Luna, Mabel, Nala and Ila. We kicked off our walk at Bucklebury Farm, which is run by members of James's family, and it's honestly animal paradise there. We saw sheep, we saw donkeys, we saw guinea pigs. I think there might well have been an alpaca at one point. So it's fair to say this is a man who is seriously passionate about animals in general, but it was dogs, and specifically one dog, who ended up really changing his life. James is someone we've all become familiar with over the years because his sister obviously married into the royal family, but what none of us actually knew

was quite how much he was struggling with his mental health. And how his dog Ella ended up really becoming not just a source of comfort, but the key to turning his life around. And it's something he's now written about in his memoir, Meet Ella, the Dog Who Saved My Life, which genuinely blew me away. It's such an incredibly honest, powerfully told story

about everything he's been through and how he managed to come out the other side with the help of Ella, so I cannot recommend it enough. I also can't recommend James enough as a human being. He comes across as such a gentle nature, kind-hearted, empathetic person, and he's also got the most hilarious bunch of dogs I've ever met in my entire life. So all in all, I really think you're going to love this one. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the man himself.

Here's James and Zulu and Inka and Luna and Mabel and Nala and Ila. James, there's a lot of dogs here. So we've got Mabel, Eila, Luna, Inca and Nala. And then we're missing Zoodoo because it's Mabel's timing. Oh, I love that you said timing. That was so genteel. You're so well brought up, aren't you? Well, I think it's not sure how I meant to say it, to be honest.

Does that mean in season? In season, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, it's better that Zulu stays at home. I'm meant to be chatting to you, but I'm so obsessed with these dogs. All I can do. But to give you some context, so Nala is Zulu's daughter. Okay. Zulu is Ella's son from her first litter. And Luna and Inka are Ella's daughters from her second litter.

So Ella's first letter, she had five boys. Oh, it's like Game of Thrones. I can't keep up with your dog lineage. And then to extend that, then Mabel and Ila, Mabel is the mother of Ila and Mabel is the great-granddaughter of Tilly, our first family dog. And we've got three spaniels and two retrievers, is that right? So three working cock spaniels and two working golden retrievals. They are so beautiful. Aren't you beautiful? Right.

Are we going to go walking? Yep, we're ready. They don't need leave. or anything. Well I do I do have leads with me but they will at this point stay to heal things with so many dogs and so many leads you end up in just a mess in two minutes so in fact when I was living in London that's one of the main reasons I got this dog bike which was because to get to the park had to put the dogs on the lead and then by the time we got there it was this perfect platte of leads and so by all the

dogs jumping into the bike we could get to the park and then they could run around in the park and you know I think as long as they're under control of which I most of the time they're always under control right girls you ready come on then come come come on healing healing girls come on heal just as a word of warning you might hear me saying heal a lot and that's obviously not I'm not speaking to you I'm saying that to the dogs that's locked come along talk me through where we're going because we're currently on is it this This is Bockelbury Farm Park.

Which is your sort of family endeavour, is it? Yeah, it's my sister and brother-in-law and friends and within the family. That it's a family park that you can come, or family farm, that you can come with your children. And there's a petting area. There's, we have a herd of deer and you can go on a tractor ride and see the deer and learn about farming and see animals up close. Well, I have. I've already seen a guinea pig that frankly had better hair than me.

And I want to come back. And so I'm following you. What I thought we'd do is walk from here to our farm. Girls come here, Mabel Isla. Inka. Come on, heal in. So I'm going to say James has very kindly given me some dog food for Ray. Ray, I should point out, I didn't bring him today.

And I hope you understand. I just felt it's a lot of dog and I wanted it to be about your dogs and he is a bit of a scene stealer. Plus he's knackered because Ed Balls tired him out. What can I tell you? I hear enough. Well no well I we've got lots of dogs here to make up for it. Yeah. It's a shame. I'd like to have met him. Do you know James you're about the only person that I'm not embarrassed. I don't mind that my car is dirty because you're a country type and I feel you people don't you don't judge as dirty cars. It gets a wash when it rains.

That's my belief. Right. Let's go on our walk. We're going to go and see the Herbocks. So we're walking now along. Well, we'll eventually get to the river Pang. And the Pang is what feeds the Thames at Pangbourne. But we'll walk along there for a bit and then we will get to our farm.

And we can have a wonder around there. And when you say, oh, that's you and your wife, Elise. Yes, exactly that. James, I've noticed you. got a sort of Gandalf type stick. Can you talk me through that? It's so country squire. No, it's a walking stick, but it does two things. One is the dogs understand that they can't walk in front of it. So when we're on a road, they know the rules in terms of that. So I can keep them tucked in if, for example, we're on the road and the car is passing, I put it out so that it gives

them a space in which the car, a car can pass. But also, it's just handy for me. Okay, it's not that muddy today but if you're going through the mud and more recently now with our son indigo who's often on my back it's a good extra bit of stability come on dogs right so in this field we have my herdworks and captain so captain is the well was the blind sheep but turns out that he can see so he's played his cards very well and he lived with us during who's a faker well He wanted to be taken in by you, James. He lived in the kitchen at my parents' house during lockdown, or one of the lockdowns, and was, I think, spent the early parts of his life thinking he was a dog

because he was on the dog bed, he had a little bell and a collar on, and I take him for walks. Come on, come on, captain, captain, come on. So we're now meeting James' sheep, captain. who he's currently sat down come on captain come on captain come on Captain understand his name he does he's my sheep herding sheep so he will if the herdericks have a wonderful ability to escape and in fact people say that the best way to keep herderick sheep has put them on the other side of the fence of

where you want to keep them and they all escape in and then they feel like they won so no when when the sheep do go wandering I don't have a sheep dog and none of my lot are capable of doing that. But they seem, they're very calm around the sheep, your dogs, aren't they? For us being in the countryside, it's really important for me that I can trust the dogs with the sheep, and particularly, you know, when it's lambing season so they don't chase or anything. So I, from an early age, from, you know, eight weeks old onwards, I make sure that the dogs are, you know, very respectful of sheep and that I've got control of them so that

they can always come back. Do you know what? I didn't realise that sheep have these sort of almost like huskies it are. eyes. Yes, no, they've got an amazing, I mean, their eyes are, this particular breed is an old English breed, so they're from the Lake District. So they're mountain's coming over, look. There you go, he's a bit annoyed with me at the moment because, well, because he's not, he's not technically at home, he's here at Buckleberry, and so he's not at home, but we were taking hay off this year, and, and so we had to move them to more grass, and they'll be coming back home probably the end of the month.

But it's quite nice because I get to walk them home, so we walk across the fields to take them back home. Do you know what, James? I've never been this up close to sheep before, and I feel it's really interesting because getting up close to them, you realise, God, they're quite, I mean, I don't want to humanise them,

but they seem really individual and quite sensitive. One of the reasons my wife agreed to move to the countryside, onto a farm is that, you know, we would look to be self-sufficient. And so far we've been self-sufficient with all of our meat. And, you know, as much a relationship we have with these sheep, you know, we do eat them. And I think, you know, for me, it's a really respectful way of understanding that sort of circle, that food chain.

You know, it's what the farm here does is making sure that you understand where your meat comes from and the process in it. And really the key thing for us is animal welfare and making sure that these sheep have got the healthiest and happiest lives. James, can we not talk about that day I'm afraid when it comes to them? Let me just grab this.

Come on. Right, we're going that way. Okay. So I am, of course, with the very wonderful James Middleton and his dogs, just to recap, We've got, over to you, James. Okay, we've got Mabel and Mabel's daughter, Eila. We've then got Inker and Luna, who are sisters and daughter of Ella.

And then we've got Nala, who is the daughter of Zulu. And Zulu's not here because Mabel is in season. So he's staying with my parents at the moment. I've obviously come to you today because I've just read, your wonderful book about your dog Ella who's not with us today? She's in spirit and she is very much in I keep on you I'm always counting six dogs when I have Zuli with me and I always count seven whenever I do and I always see Ella in in the offspring that she's produced but also just you know in

a lot of the the person I am today is thanks to her so I I think of her daily. Oh no. I've literally started crying already. Stop it. You're going to have to stop talking. That's the only way I'm going to get through this. Right, you lead the way, James.

Right, we go through here. So James, for the benefit of the listeners, if you could talk us through your early experiences with dogs, because it took a while for the Middletons to get on board with the whole dog thing, if we're honest. No, it did. I mean, I still love the sound of your mar and par, but, you know, they took a while. It was one of those things I was, you know, pining for a dog. And I think for my parents, three young children and then adding a dog into the family was going to be a bit of a challenge for them.

So it was actually only until I was leaving from boarding school that the family did get, or my parents did get our first family dog, Tilly. But no, growing up, I spent a huge amount of my childhood outdoors and a lot of that was knocking on neighbours' doors, asking if I could take their dogs, from golden retrievers to Rottweilers for walks. And in the winter months, when it was perhaps too muddy, I'd actually be on their kitchen floor, wrestling the dogs until I was sort of sent home.

So I was, I suppose perhaps you could say my first job was a dog walker. This is where I grew up So I spent most of my childhood Playing in the woods around here Cycling along along these lanes And so most of the neighbours sort of all knew me and still know me

Because they've stayed here Anything that's really changed We've all got a bit older Hi Hi there's a gentleman on I don't look like Granddad duty there And this was obviously Your Mum, your dad

It's Michael and Carol, isn't it? Yes. Your sister's Pippa and Catherine. Exactly. And you're the youngest. You talk in your book, and I love this, that you had these sisters who were super together and capable and kind of sporty.

And then along came me. Yes. No, I think a lot of the time I had this, you know, I had a really privileged upbringing. I've been very fortunate in my life, and I'm always thankful and grateful for that. But, you know, it is that thing when, and what it amazes me, you know, from dogs to humans, that you can have the same literal, you can have siblings.

Girls, come here, come on, you know, everyone's different. And the, you know, so my siblings, like Catherine and Pippa, we're similar in many ways, but we're different in lots of other ways. And I think for my parents, it was, they thought, okay, Piper, Catherine's gone through, okay, that was all right, Piper's gone through, okay, that's gone well. And then suddenly, along comes me. think, okay, he'll be fine, you know, we'll just do the same. And I think unfortunately, I was a bit more of a struggle

to just pass exams or to do what I was told, tucking my shirt in or various things like that. So yeah, I think they were not used to having a child that was bottom of the class rather than top of the class. And I think that's when I was initially diagnosed with, well, not diagnosed, but it would unraveled that I had dyslexia. and obviously there's sort of systems in place for helping children with dyslexia

were present then but you know perhaps not as advanced as they are today we know a lot more now girls hill yeah so for me it was um school was I excelled more outside the classroom than I did inside the classroom it sounds like a very warm close kind of supportive family we we were we were and we've been brought up by my parents and it's something that I really want to instill with my new young family with our son is that you know family do come first and that we were very much focused on you know my parents would give up a lot of their own life to support us and to to be engaging with what we're doing so they were interested in our hobbies and I think that

we're really fortunate for that but as a result it's built this very close and strong family and we are, you know, honest with each other. And I think it's something that we're really lucky to have. Were you naughty James as a kid? So, I mean, I was always the naughty one. I now put that down to having undiagnosed ADHD. But I mean, I would say that, wouldn't I? But, you know, if there was something, there was some prank or someone had decided to do something a bit naughty, I was generally the culprit. Yeah, I do think I was naughty. I wouldn't say I was naughty, but I would probably say that I was mischievous. That's what all naughty people say. There you go. So I think I was I was playing around the

edges of being in trouble. I would push limits and I think that's, I personally think that it's really important to push limits. I think it's good to see where boundaries lie and and where things are because then you know where to explore and how to explore and what happens if you do go I think it's important for people to know if they get something wrong and to understand why

whereas if you curate someone so perfectly into this brilliant specimen they're just a curated identity whereas we're all individuals and we've all got to find what makes us tick and to do that you have to find things that don't make you tick

in order to understand why things that do make you tick make you tick. I had a sister and you had two sisters and I get the impression from how you write about them that they weren't, oh my God, my little brother's so annoying that they actually more like sort of mini-mums almost to you. Absolutely. I mean they were so kind to me growing up and they included me in pretty much everything that, that they did, I would always be invited along, I'd always get to play with them or be invited

to various things that they were doing. You know, they definitely took on a disciplining role, so I would get told off if I was in trouble at school, they would report back to my parents about my misdemeanour, whereas I perhaps would have kept it quiet. siblings have this relationship that you can't have with anybody else your blood you don't get to choose your family you don't get to choose your siblings and you have to learn to I suppose get on you know you can choose your friends you can choose much in your life but you can't choose that and so it's sort of in a way up to you all to make sure that you bond and that you create the strength or that you see the importance of creating that that

that bond and that unity. You ended up going to Marlborough College where both your sisters were and of course as you arrive and you had this sense of people saying, because you weren't like massively sporty or you know and people saying are you sure you're a middle

turn? Paper and Catherine were very accomplished at their school careers and I think I turned up and there was this expectation of me perhaps that I would be following directly in their footsteps and So I was put into the first teams

or I was put into the top sets and quite quickly I was relegated into lower sports teams and you know I wasn't a big you know boys develop at different rates and different stages so I was perhaps a bit of a little squirt when I turned up and so I remember my first rugby match

I did I was often at the bottom of the pile quite often and I love rugby yeah I think it was just some of the in sort of joking, but, you know, joking can sometimes sort of, when you hear it a few times, get to you. And it was that sort of, you sure you're a middleton. And, you know, when you are being dropped from teams or dropped from lower sets, you know, it can be demoralising. You come across as quite a, I suppose, a shy, sensitive kid. And if you are in a school,

where, which is, you know, populated a bit by more confident extroverts, you come across as other. For me, I look back on it and I think I'm pleased I've learnt what I've learned. And, you know, there are some experiences I would never like to experience again. But... From a school, you mean? From school or from, you know, from life in general. I think this applies not just to schooling, but it's an important thing to learn. I think how to adapt and how to be able to apply yourself in different environments

because not every environment is always the same. Yeah, but you had to deal with things like a kid putting his foot out and you went flying with your drinks tray. And I know what you're saying because at school you would say, oh, well, that's just the rough and tumble of school. Now, if someone did that to us as adults in a way, work situation or what the hell is everyone standing around doing nothing no true but i think in those environments they're the environments that that perhaps bully can experiment doing what they're doing

and also the vulnerable can be the ones that sort of see how it feels to be on the receiving side so i think you know school is sometimes a a cauldron of all different environments that are brewing and in many ways there are a safe place to be able to have allow that to happen. Absolutely. If somebody stuck their foot out at me when I was in a restaurant, a very different scenario would unfold than perhaps what happened at school. The experiences that we have in life are all shape who we are. And schooling is a big part of that, especially from a young age. But am I still allowed to be angry at the person that did that to you, though? I can tell you his name. But I won't. It's interesting, because I think,

I think sometimes, you know, when you're living a moment at school, you can feel it in one way. And then when you look back on it, it can seem in a way potentially harsher or worse than it potentially was in the environment itself. You know, I don't go as far as saying that I was bullied, but I was probably picked on. And I think those are two distinct areas because I was vulnerable. Why were you vulnerable, James? Because... I think because I was slightly different. I was, you know, more interested in taking the dogs out for a walk and my housemaster's dogs out for a walk

than I was watching the latest football match that was on that afternoon or that evening. My walls were plastered with tractors and dogs and engines, pictures of from my magazines, rather than perhaps a lot of my peers was magazines of bikini-clad women. You know, I was just different. So I was, and being different, you can sometimes be an easier target. But it didn't change me from who I was. When your parents would say, how's school going?

Were you the type of person, you know, because we all have moments at school when you're feeling, oh, actually, it's not going great. I'm struggling about academically, and some idiot just made me trip over. If you were having a day like that, would your inclination have been, I'm not going to say anything?

Well, this was before mobile phones. So actually it was whether I could be bothered to get to the pay phone or not, or if there was a queue, or I had enough changed, or money on my pay card on the pay phone to be able to call home. And inevitably, you know, school life would continue and you would move on from it. You would.

Yes, but I think I would have, like, learned about it. I define the difference between bullying and, you know, there are scenarios that were one-off. And the school did do a job of, you know, making sure that things like that didn't go unnoticed. Yeah. And so there were repercussions. if things carried on. And you know, I do appreciate the interventions that did happen at the time. And I think from the outside it can sometimes be these sort of things can be obvious. But if there's intervention at every single step, then there's never any allowance for children to be or school

kids to be school kids. So they have to in a way figure it out a little bit by themselves and then be helped shaped by by teachers if it's not quite going that way. And you ended up, you struggled a bit as you... I think the thing I struggled most with at school was my academia. And I think, you know, for me, I felt very much like a square peg, and societies or the schooling expectations of me was a round hole. And so rather than the examining systems and the expectations being adapted to become a square hole so that more of us could fit through it, it was just focused on shaving off your edges.

to make you fit through and you know the you have to go to university if you want to make a success of your life type mantra so it's all focused on getting good grades that will then sort of take you on to the next journey and then that will take you and then you go to university and then you give a degree and then you'll automatically land yourself into a fantastic job and it will be fine and it's not like that at all and for me who struggled that with with you know I wasn't I never say I was an idiot. I loved chemistry. I loved physics.

I loved all my subjects. And I could probably recite a lot of the questions in the topics now, because that's how instilled they were or interested I was in them. But I feel like it was more the exams failed me. And the way that the exam system wasn't agile enough to allow me to really be able to shine through. So going on to university, I proved I could get there I retook and I retook and I retook

I went to sixth form college and I retook and I jumped the hoops and I got to Edinburgh which is a really good university a fantastic university and your sister Pippa was already there

am I right in thinking Pippa was already there Catherine had finished St Andrews and so it was already I think she was back in London at the time when I started up at Edinburgh. And were you already at that point, had it emerged about her relationship with William, so were you, you know, were you aware of interest around you, I suppose, when you were at Edinburgh?

Well, I think I was about 13 or 14 when Catherine William started dating or it became sort of public knowledge. So, someone said this to me the other day. Catherine and William, or William's been in our lives for longer, or in my life, for longer than he hasn't. So I was, yeah, 13 or 14 when they started dating and I, you know, first met him. We really liked him when you first met him. But, you know, at that point it was maybe a, you know, friendship or I wasn't necessarily a relationship at that point. But it was more, I think, once they were dating properly that I, you know, acknowledged that they were.

boyfriend, a girlfriend and yeah, I think... It's quite nice in a way because you were young. It was almost like, well, you just related to him as a family member. I've been very fortunate to get to know him how I have and, you know, I respect him hugely and he's

always given me a bit of guidance in various things that I've had along the way and wanted his advice on and... What, like mental health things and stuff? From mental health. things to life things. I think it's in general I'm fortunate to have had him, you know, as a friend, as a boyfriend of my sister, as a, now his brother. I have to say, I've really

identified with him. I never thought I'd end up saying this, but I had a hard relate when you described the family games. And the Middletons are quite competitive and they love a game, don't they? Is it racing demons they play? Racing demon, boost. Sure. Bantia, yeah, there's a lot of different games you play. But racing demon is probably the most fast-paced, you know, competitive one that we all play together. And my dear grandmother on my father's side was an absolute demon at it.

So she was able to sort of reach across the table and put her cars down. and while we were still sort of trying to sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of trying to sort of finished her deck. And then you made Paul William play it who found it too competitive and actually used to make excuses. No, I think it was that the family dinners and we would be sat there and we would sort of cards would come out and perhaps slowly he would see if Ellen

needed a walk or make an excuse to get down from the table. and um i'm i'm i'm team william in that situation love you middleton's but the competitive thing frightens me so let's get back to you you're at edinburgh university and you're doing this degree james but at this point we should say is also when you decide to do something that's not that traditional for students you decide you're going to get a dog yes there was actually one other person who had a dog at university and I convinced well if one other person has a dog then it's definitely a really popular thing to do and so I I fall in love with this dog called Zulu who was another Zulu he's Ella's father and belonged to a close friend of mine's brother

and spend a lot of time and I sort of eventually asked I said look if Zulu ever saw as a litter I would love to be considered for one of the pups and by chance he already had done the deed and they were waiting to find out whether Mabel, was Ella's mother, was pregnant or not. So I got in contact with the owners and said by any chance could I be considered and actually when I was talking

I was thinking, crikey, on paper I'm definitely not the best candidate for taking on the puppy. I don't have a random student. Yeah, I'm living a student timetable I don't have a fixed home. I didn't have a fixed routine, etc., etc., etc. And I went to meet them, and fortunately, and hugely fortunately, they put me down and said, look, come back in a few weeks. And once their eyes have opened, and, you know, I think they've had time to have a think as well.

And I went back, and I can still remember exactly the way that the kitchen looked and the cup of tea that remained untouched because I had fallen asleep in my arms. and they agreed that I could have her. And I think I couldn't believe my excitement or my, you know, I didn't know it obviously at the time, but how much this little eight-week-old pup was going to change my life. The advice I was being given at the time was, don't take a puppy now, don't take a dog now, et cetera, et cetera. And I think actually, you know, not following that advice

was probably the best thing I've ever done, because one of the reasons I'm still here today is because of Ella. And the reason I have a beautiful son, Inigo, and my amazing wife, Alise, is because of her. So I have huge amounts to thank her for, and it does all send back down to that day. Well, it's the reason I'm here today, because let's face it,

I wouldn't be coming here to meet you if you'd written, meet the man who never got a dog. I don't want to read that book, James. No, I... Thank you. Thank you. I feel honoured. So you get this gorgeous dog, Ella,

and as you say, it ends up changing your life. You don't know quite how much she's going to change your life at the time, but you do have this issue. If you're going back to your family, Ma and Paul Middleton, they don't know you've got a dog yet, do they? Or they don't know about Ella? No, I've been in the run up to, you know, in the sort of several weeks before I get Ella or I get comfort.

made some mad Ella. I'm subtly dropping in hints that I'm thinking about getting a dog and those sorts of things. You never say, Ella is going to be here on the 12th of September or whatever. No, I didn't say that I'd specifically found one. I said that I was looking and it happened to be that I'd actually found one while I was still technically looking. And so I didn't tell anybody. I sort of was making the murmurings and then eventually I drove down from from Edinburgh with Ella in the car and it was a long journey to take with a young pup so I was stopping and she was missing her litter mate so she was sort of making a bit of noise and you know I chatted to her the whole way. We arrived back home and Tilly was at home

with my sister and William and in walks. I like to think that Ella you know was walking into her new home and she went over the threshold. took her first step through the front door and as Tilly was running to greet me in bounds Ella really excited and sort of hadn't had much exposure to other dogs and there was a sort of almighty yelp from both of them and Tilly sort of runs off and hides and and Ella is sort of you know comes back and a bit of commotion but I I think for me you know in the journey down in the car I was just I kept on looking Yeah, I can't be thinking, oh my goodness, I've really got the song.

And it's something I've been pining for for all of my life and the dreams of having the sort of famous five type adventures with Georgina and Timmy, her dog, and the adventures that they went on. And my sort of wishes were coming true that I had this young pup that was soon we'd be able to start going on our own adventures together. So it was an absolute delight. And I think in my mind it gave me then the confidence

of following the sort of things that followed after that, which was that I was already in two minds about staying at university or not. And I made the conclusion that I wasn't going to stay at university. And when you got Ella, I just want to, because there was a brilliant moment when you walked in with her, and your sister Catherine was slightly surprised. Well, I hadn't told anybody. So yeah, there was a surprise of whose dog is this and that's a look of really yours

But it was actually when my mother called and she was on the phone and suddenly Ella who was Hungry or sort of wanting attention suddenly starts barking and mum recognising that as two that isn't tillies Tillies bark. Recognise there was a different dog then who's who's dog's that and Catherine sort of shouts in the background James has got a dog it was actually perfect because mum and dad were away the that the line was able to go a bit crackly. And they had time to, I suppose, acknowledge the fact that I had a dog by the time they got back. They must have known, though, that, you know,

you were so desperate for a dog and actually this would be... No, they were. And I think also what they were sort of aware of was that I was no longer... You were struggling at the time as well at university, or had you told them about that? I was solely struggling at university at the time. I was just beginning to, I think I was struggling in the sense that my anxiety was running high. And I think it was my consciousness that I would work so hard and I'd done all this work to get into university.

And then actually it really wasn't the right place for me. For me, I wanted to get out and start working and start my own business. Did you feel a bit sort of almost restricted? almost there. I felt like I was doing it for other, I was at university for other people. I didn't feel like I was there for myself and being an adult or becoming an adult, I had my own responsibilities and I could make my own decisions and other people couldn't make them for me. And and it was a big decision to leave and make that cool and it stay with me for a bit when everyone is saying, stay university, state university, don't leave.

And job applications saying, you know, what did you go to university? Yeah. Oh, I sort of dropped out. And, you know, to be a dropout as a negative connotation. And all of these words are being thrown out. So all that you feel is that if I do this, then I'm a failure. I'm a negative sort of connotation to... And when you say thrown out, what, when you discussed it with friends and family and

just people in general... Yeah, and anybody, your, the language isn't your sort of... doing it for yourself, they're saying all the things that are going to go wrong for you if you do do that. There are a few, but very few people saying, you know, go for it. It will change your life. And it was tough. When you told your parents, their reaction, which is how, by the way, my parents would have reacted exactly. But I think it's how parents should react, to be honest. I think, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not angry with them. How they, how did they react? I don't think they were fully surprised that that was my sort of ambition that I was going to leave.

I think they just didn't think perhaps I would end up doing it. And so they were disappointed, I think, on my behalf. But I think since now, we chat about it and they think, they recognize that it was the best decision I made to leave. And I look at it now with Inigo, who's just turned one. And I want the best for him. And that's, you know, all my parents wanted. and I'm pleased that I was given, you know, although I say that it was all negative, I'm pleased that I was really made, I wasn't just said, if you want to leave, just leave.

Go on, it's fine. Because what it gave me the opportunity to do is to really know and really make sure that I wanted to leave. So that resistance to leave made me confident about the decision I was making. Because they did say to you, well, if you want to leave university and set up, your own business there were consequences which were well i would that if i was while i was in a sense of formal education then girls come here heal we go stay stay stay stay so but while i was in formal education um i would have a form of support in finance financial support um and access to a car and that sort of thing and if i left then that support would stop and i'd have to

to find Wayne's means to fund it myself. Looking back, you see why they did that? Oh, I'm pleased they did it. I think it may, again, those sorts of things made me sure. Like it wasn't that I was leaving and my life would remain exactly the same and I'd have all these perks. I, you know, these perks were- They gave you the impetus to actually think, might-

Make sure I worked. And, you know, I was having to make sure I could afford the vet bills for Ella and and her food and other other things so it wasn't a decision I took lightly and their discouragement for me leaving was was fantastic you ended up starting your first business was this cakes company because your parents company was party planning so it seemed like a sort of natural area for you to go into absolutely so it was sort of you know my parents were saying so what are you going to do and I said well I've got an idea but little they know at the time that it was actually a business that included them and there was a marketplace that they had for children's parties that they were supplying

a paraphernalia for a children's party and the one thing they never supplied was the cake and sending cakes through the post was was a challenge do you remember somebody called jane asher of course i remember jane asher cookbooks or cake books and i used to go through those I would go to a, I went to a bookshop in Edinburgh and I picked up a couple of her cake recipe books. Yeah. And they were how to make a dinosaur or a football pitch or a treasure chest or a Princess Fairy Castle type cake structure. Yeah. And I would go and buy all the recipes, all the ingredients that needed to make that specific cake,

weigh out the ingredients and what was needed. And then I'd actually shrink wrap them. so if you needed let's say 50 grams of yellow icing to do the buckles on the pirate treasure chest but the smallest amount of icing

you could buy in yellow was 500 grams I'll wear that in mind James next time I'm making the pirate buckles so there was always excess left and so I ended up putting all the right amount of ingredients you needed into one kit

can I tell you already what I'm sensing about you would I be right in assuming you get very hyper-focused on tasks, correct? Yes. And you're quite forensic about detail on those tasks. I think I'm definitely become hyper-focused on aspects, which sort of I've since learned that I was diagnosed at the same time as my depression

on having ADD, which is ADHD but without the H part. And a lot of the traits in attention deficit disorder are hyper-focused and, you know so although you can be easily distracted you're also very much sometimes too focused in in details that perhaps don't matter as much to to others but in light of that you then are more creative or you're more willing to take risks really it's very important for people with ADD to end up doing something they're passionate about otherwise they simply won't do it Well, the joke is with ADD, or for me anyway, is that sometimes the easiest tasks in the world, easiest tasks, making the bed or writing a thank you letter or some, you know, little job that's very easy is actually the most monumental task.

Yet I can fill in a tax return in 20 minutes and it's super easy. My mind always goes on journeys and it's never just a sort of a straightforward yes or no. know, there's, you're thinking of the consequences of if you say yes, what's that in. So you go on this overly complex journey that perhaps isn't always relevant, but it is irrelevant. There's a thing I, because I got diagnosed James at a later stage in life. Yeah, I always try and describe it to people as they will eventually get into a routine. I will never get into, say, a morning routine. So like this morning, fame, I'm.

producer who's here probably sets her alarm gets up and goes through a series of normal human processes that she doesn't have to think about now i'll unload the dishwasher i will clean my teeth your routine is not having a routine i don't do that james every morning i have to write on my notes app and by the way if i die can both of you please ensure that this is deleted it's so embarrassing literally james i have to write wake up 720 a m 7. 724 am feed rome 7.28am. This is honestly true. Unload the dishwasher. 735, clean my teeth, and so on and so on. It's got like 40 tasks on it. If I don't do that, I will get distracted and I'll end up watching an episode of EastEnders from 32 years ago. I'm very much the same. I get stuck listening, you know, you're meant to be leaving. You know that your alarm is set to say, right, I have to leave, to be there on time. Yeah.

You have to leave it this time. And your alarm goes and then actually you get distracted about why your alarm's going off as to why what you were meant to be doing at that time. Someone said to me there's this wonderful thing about ADHD. It will come to me. I'll see if I can remember it. Yeah, but then you wouldn't have ADHD if you could remember it. Well, that's true.

Oh, no, forget alarms. I know what it will happen. As soon as we stopped recording, I'll suddenly think, oh, that was it. So I want to just to give us a sense of where you are. You've started this company and you've moved by this stage. It's still you and your beloved Ella. And you move in with your sisters, Pippa and Catherine are living in London. Is that right?

So by then Pippa's left Edinburgh. Yeah. And I have decided to quit full time. And I'm still sort of back and forth from I'm partially living in Edinburgh and partly living in London. And at that time, I'm living with Pippa and Catherine, with Ella. How did they feel about Ella coming to live with you and their nice, girly pad? I know, they loved Ella. I think Ella was a better housemate for them than I was.

I think she was probably tidier than I was. And it must have been at that point, there was scrutiny on all of you because the world knew about Catherine and William by that stage. And it didn't used to have, like, tour guides going, When the sort of craze started of media interest into where, or learning about who my sister was, and it did become, you know, there was a bit of a frenzy around it. So there was often photographers camped outside the door and I remember the multiple times I would go and the door would click as you press the release button and it was swing open and all this sort of shutters would start

of lens cameras would start going off and suddenly they'd hear this audible groan of like oh and it's like it's just i'm just coming out of my own front door it's just because it wasn't either katherine or william appearing and so um yeah it was this sort of um rather amusing to me scenario but no it was it was a it was a difficult time with the adjustment i think of that media interest that was occurring you know in notting hill and what's his name i can't remember his name rousse of fans yes exactly and he goes out in his boxer shawl in his wide fronts and just suddenly he's there and he sort of i wasn't quite brave enough to start pulling poses um but no it was it was a sort of a real-life moment of that scenario that was occurring presumably as well

you were having to be quite a little circumspect about who you talk to. Just watch out for the... Oh, there's barbed wire here. Come on, up. Come on. The dogs are good. They know to avoid it. But you were presumably at this point as well, James. You know, I presume your family had spoken to you, or you'd all had conversations about, look, walls have ears a bit.

So choose your friends carefully. There's been bits of advice that have... been given over the years and I think for me a big part of it was making sure or sorry for as a family that we obviously remain close and when we're we are private individuals where we're we're not actively or you know trying to be front and center of public life What was the best advice you heard from someone? The best advice for me was to be careful, I think, you know, just think twice.

My brother-in-law, William said that. William was, you know, just saying, look, you know, just be careful. And, you know, I've made mistakes. I've, I feel, taken advantage of by media outlets that have said one thing but done another. And I was naive, perhaps, looking back on it. But, you know, it was a learning curve at that point. I was never brought up with that interest surrounding us. And I think you've got to find the balance.

And I will always be Catherine's brother. So I understand that there's always going to be an element of interest into her surrounding life. And that's me included. And I, you know, hope that my everything I do is, is I got her best interest. in heart and I make sure that as a family that we

remain grounded. James, I honestly feel this is the closest thing I've ever come to heaven. Got to get to the top first. But this is honestly like heaven. This is what I want heaven to be like James. Just all happy dogs running around.

We're very lucky here. This is a special spot. because the dogs love it, they're always very happy. If I die, I would like to come back as one of your dogs. Is that all right? Absolutely. And...

More than merrier. Well, thanks, James. No, I mean, not if you die. I'm saying if you want to come back and I'd love to have more dogs. And so this very exciting news happens where you find out your sister's getting engaged. which is a lovely thing for any family. Of course, in your case, it's a big high profile thing. And how lovely you write about having the opportunity

to sort of keep this news private. You had this lovely 48-hour period, but it was just, oh, I'm really happy. I've had this lovely news. And then they ask you to speak at their wedding. And do you know, I was so rooting for you when I read about that. That's a big gig for anybody, let alone someone who,

Maybe, you know, you've said it's sort of like confidence and a certain amount of self-belief. And yet you said yes. I've been brought up to say yes, do things, experiment, try different environments, try different things and learn what you like and don't like. And I think I was wonderfully naive perhaps about what it actually meant. I was just thinking I was doing a reading at my sister's wedding. And albeit I hadn't really witnessed a royal wedding. There had been royal weddings when I was growing up. but I hadn't necessarily acknowledged the scale of those royal weddings

and the scale of what Catherine and Williams' wedding would be. So I didn't necessarily anticipate that. And how many people would have been watching? Well, subsequently, I think it was around 2 billion. So yeah, I think it's still the record for the largest Bible reading ever. A largest audience for a Bible reading. And you went to see an incredibly helpful man, didn't you? Yeah, Anthony Gordon Lennox, he was, you know, sadly not with us any longer,

but he was, he happened to live next to me on Old Church Street. And I remember seeing him for the first time when we had, I thought I'd had it nailed. I thought I had the whole reading sussed. Did you? I was just trying to get through it as quick as possible. So it was like, bang, bang. It's like, right, that's less than a minute. I think my version, like the final version is like three and a half minute.

So I think he realised there was a bit of work to do and... And he'd coached, was it high profile people in the park? Yeah, he'd helped various prime ministers and lots of people with their public speaking. I think he had a fantastic way of not just making you sound robotic. He, I still feel like he was able to give me the presence of me giving the reading without it just being a regurgitated sort of version of, version of the reading. And that's the key to it, isn't it?

It should always sound like you. I think what people do is, I didn't realize this with funeral, you know, when you give speeches and sadly I've had to do quite a few now since my family I lost. But every time, it's awful, James, I would get better.

I remember when I spoke at my sister's funeral and the French, people kept saying to me, oh, it was beautiful, but it didn't sound like you. Well, it was only by the time that I'd done my 10,000 hours and got my mum and dad under my belt, that I was kind of like, oh, I get it. It's meant to be from the heart.

Even if you've written it. It's funny. When you hear people do speeches at weddings or, as you say, readings at funerals or various places, you sort of think, oh, I wish I could be as funny or I wish I could be as sincere, I wish I could be. But actually, you know, if you try and be funny, you won't be funny.

If you try and be sincere, it has to, as you say, come from the heart. heart. Or if you tried to be a bit street or something. Yeah, or just trying to read in the way that you feel like a Bible reading should be read. And Anthony was fantastic because we used to go to, we lived on an old church street, so there was a church at the end of the street. We, I knew the vicar and knocked in his door and asked if I could practice a reading in there. And so Ella came into the church with me as well. And Anthony used to stand at the back with Ella. and I used to be at the lectern starting the reading

and I stood there just staring at Anthony and Ella and Anthony sorry and Ella would be wandering around and he goes, why are you looking at me? Look at Ella. He's moving. He goes to well exactly. Watch Ella and Ella was going in between the pews and sniffing whether there's any old anything sort of left behind under the under the pews and that was sort of the queue for me sort of with the eye wandering around and and so you know I could picture that and

various other things that we were doing you know and he said every now and then put Ella's name into it and every now and then I would just see Ella's head prick up and she heard her name what I love is this story about you're going into Westminster Abbey the day before you know this big wedding rehearsal and you you brought Ella with you to Westminster Avenue. I couldn't not bring her. And I figured, well, sometimes if you don't ask, you don't know an answer, and then there's,

you know, you have to, unfortunately, she was made to feel very welcome. And I was the Archbishop of Canterbury there? I think everybody was there in terms of getting ready for the rehearsals. I think that was the first time I really started to feel nervous because I think, A, it was less than 24 hours away. And B, it was, it really was starting

starting to feel real and then you were saying oh maybe I should have thought that yeah there are going to be cameras and there are going to be you know lots of other things going on but when you're inside the Abbey it was it's a large but small room if you know what I mean in comparison to the whole of the streets of London which were rammed full of people and I didn't actually see a lot of that it was only actually then when we were driving, I was driving with my mother and suddenly saw all these people because we were just seeing parts on the news. You were looking at it and it, not, you know, acknowledging that it was just outside your front door, but not really being aware,

this is mum and daughter having a bit of playtime and I think it's, Isla's wanting to play and Mabel doesn't. Do they know, James? Do they know that they're mum and daughter? Of course they do. When I say, of course they do. They've never been separate, So since they were pups, or since Mabel gave birth to Ila, they haven't really been separated. But do dogs recognise that they have a blood relationship with each other? I believe they do. Like some people say that Inker and Luna are litter mates from sisters. They've never been separated and they scrabble like siblings do.

Some people say you should separate siblings for six months if you want to keep them. Also, no, don't sniff each other's bombs. other's bums your blood relations I don't like it isn't it isn't that their own version of a Facebook page like someone told me that the like walking London every lamp post is like another dog's Facebook profile and it's like you know you do your check-ins and then it's like oh do you know what I like Sam the Labradoodle is checked in here well when you meet Ray which we're going to soon you'll see Ray's a bit snooty about dog sniffing his bum really he doesn't like it

Inka's like that Inka doesn't like she likes to sniff but not be sniffed yeah raised like that. He really doesn't like it. He's like, get your filthy paws off me. Who do you think you are? Well, I have to say, I have to give you a review because I remember watching the wedding, like the rest of the world with my mum. And I remember that this all stood out

because you came on and she went, what a charming young man. Thank you. As if she'd met you or something. I was like, Mommy's doing a Bible reading. He's a charming young man, I can tell. I never forgot that. No, I just looked back in it now.

I look back in an hour and isn't embarrassed about my tithing so crooked. It was like all the things that could drastically go wrong. I didn't trip off. I didn't stumble over my words. I wasn't, you know. But I just look back now thinking, no one tell me that my tie wasn't straight. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog.

If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday. So whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe. so you can join us on our walks every week.