Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - James O'Brien (Part Two)

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

We’re in Brentford this week with the brilliant author and broadcaster James O’Brien and his cavapoo Polly. Polly and Ray were on their best behaviour as we chat about James’ first ever phone-in show on LBC, how he approaches conflict off-air and his feelings about being ‘low-key’ famous…Follow James on X @mrjamesobGet your copy of How They Broke Britain hereYou can listen to James’ podcast Full Disclosure on all podcast platforms, and you can hear him on LBC every weekday from 10am Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of my chat with the wonderful James O'Brien. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, get on it immediately, as I think you'll really love it. Oh, and also, I'd be thrilled if you subscribe to us at Walking the Dog. Here's James and Polly and Ray Ray. I remember you as a figure, because I was sort of in journalism at the time, and I remember you were very much quite this sort of precocious talent. People would talk about you a lot.

You were almost quite a... You maybe don't know this, but you were spoken about... as quite a sort of glamorous man about town figure. I find that impossible to believe. I wish I'd known at the time. My love life would have been a lot more exciting. No, I remember you were very glamorous. And I remember once walking into,

I think it was at the Express or something, and I was on the magazine briefly. And you know how everyone was a little bit older there? So you look at younger people. At the time we were young, believe it or not, guys. But I remember looking over it, you were like, oh, there's a young person sort of my age. Or he'll be a bit sort of scared, like me in timid.

but honestly I remember it was the confidence with it really stuck in my mind you picked up the phone and you just went oh Brian that's my dad that's what my dad used to do and I thought oh my God he's so confident inside I was

like quivering constantly Is that what your dad did? The dad always O'Brien always I just copied my dad when I used to ring him I said what do I do now what do I do know when I did work experience on the Sunday Telegraph before anything slotted into place so they haven't spoken to me today And Dad had just say, you're there in case they need you,

he just always gave me such wonderful advice. But yeah, I could talk, that's swagger, isn't it? How lovely, James. That's what a lovely memory. I wish you'd come and said hello. I was too frightened. Well, yeah, but I was frightened as well. The only advice I ever give to young people when they ask for it

if I do a speech at a school or something like that, I say everybody else is frightened too, even especially the ones that don't look like it. And anyone who's not frightened is a sociopath. and actually how lovely that now all these years later I'm meeting you and I realised that you saying O'Brien wasn't because you were so coxure and knew what you were doing in the most touching kind of making me well up a bit

It's me too now It's the fact that your dad Copping my dad Because that must be what proper journalists do right That must be what I'm doing God knows what I'm playing at O'Brien But you know isn't that a lovely tribute

I know he didn't see your books published. He saw that. He saw me. I mean, I moved pretty quickly once I got back to it. So by then I was probably a show business editor at the age of about 26, 27, which is impressive until you look at someone like Pierce Morgan's CV, who was already editing the news of the world by then. But once I got in, I was all, I knew, I always knew I'd be all right.

I mean, I don't know if it's the legacy I'd want on my CV editing the news of the world. No, but in terms of precociousness. At the time, yeah. In terms of precociousness, it moved pretty quickly. When did you realise, James? because I'm going to have to fan-gull a bit now. I'm honestly obsessed with your radio show in a way that I've never been obsessed with it.

I love yours. I had Frank on the other day. Anyway, radio is wonderful, isn't it? I think, why I love your radio show so much is just, it's about authenticity, really, isn't it? I hope so. I want to know, how did you know you were going to be so good at it? Did you always think, I've got a talent for speaking?

I'm articulate. This is something I've got in my locker. can I use it or was it just a fluke that you found out? It's complete fluke. I wanted to edit a national newspaper. That was my big ambition. When I became a section editor of a national newspaper, I was confronted by the lack of talent that would have.

You know, I could always talk a good game in conference. I could probably have bullshitted my way to the, very nearly to the top. But I wouldn't have had it in my bones, like my dad had it in his bones. The express at the time was owned largely by Clive Lord Holick, who also owned most of Anglia TV. And they were putting together a TV show for Channel 5,

which would be a morning talk show, like a panel-type debate show. And they thought it would be a great idea if we could get some of our express journalists on it. They hired Matthew Wright, who was the showbiz man at the mirror, to present it. So they then got in all the other showbiz journalists from the country to audition for it. And I got it under slightly false pretenses. I didn't realise when I signed up to it that it was going to be the Matthew Wright Show. I thought we were all going to be equals under the...

And that didn't matter to start with. But I got it. And then Anglia said, oh, we're going to have to make it in Norwich. So you won't be able to carry on having the job on the Express. And I've never really thought about it. I'd reached a point where I was still frightened all the time, even if I was giving the impression of being in control and all of that. I was still frightened all the time.

I was drinking too much. I was nervous all the time. my time. I had a very mild what I think probably was some form of eating disorder because it was the only area of my life over which I could exercise control. So I'd not eat for quite long periods of time or I'd have a cup of soup at lunchtime. And then the next day I'd go out and drink two bottles of wine and have eight courses. So it wasn't just something weird, something very disregulated going on. I'd fallen in love and so it just seemed an opportune moment to have a complete change of course to go off and do that to do the right stuff. with Matthew and Kate Silverton,

who also went on to broadcasting at a higher level than Channel 5 daytime. But that ran out. And overnight, things went incredibly well. So I had my own chat show on regional ITV. I was making documentaries, but 18 months in, a contract comes up for a new. Granada has bought Anglia.

I didn't have an agent. I didn't realize how cutthroat it all is. And suddenly, I'm out on my ass, really. I said to Lucy, I'm going to have to go back to newspapers. And she very diplomatically said, you're very good at broadcasting. I said, but I haven't got a job in broadcasting. I don't really know anymore. That's why you married her.

Yeah, I know. There's people I can ring on newspapers and I'll have shifts tomorrow. And she said, yeah, but listen, you'll be back at the bottom. So no one's going to hire you as a showbiz at it time. So give yourself a year. We've got, you know, we didn't have kids. It didn't have particularly expensive mortgage. So give yourself a year and see what happens.

it didn't happen. I didn't get much work. And towards the end of it, I'm doing Channel 5 News with Kirstie Young, who came up to me at an event the other day and was just so lovely. I really talked about welling up. Because that was like little me.

That was like 28, 29-year-old me thinking, that's it now. I've had my chance and I've blown it. And it was like she was speaking to him. So that was the only gig I was getting once or twice a week doing Channel 5 News review. And the woman they'd booked to do it as a kind of substitute because she worked for this radio station that I'd never heard of that was in the basement of ITN on Grayson Road.

And one day they'd booked David Meller to do it with me. And it was during the football and he'd just gone AWOLM. They've got like half an hour to go. And so they said, oh, we'll have to go and ask Sandy from LBC. And so she comes up. We do it together. We're having a bit of a chat afterwards. And she obviously had no idea who I was, but asked what I was up to and what I was doing.

And so I told her, not a lot. I said, well, I've got a radio, should I do the drive-time show on LBC? And my holiday cover's just fallen through. Why don't you ask if you can do it? So I thought, well, fuck it. So probably the only time in my life I picked up the phone and asked for a job. And I just said, any chance? I've got a show reel.

I've put together a show reel of my TV stuff. And a lad called Rob Hooker got me in. And I never really left. I did loads of shifts. And then again, it got bought by someone else. and it looked like I was going to be surplus to requirements because they hired loads and loads of famous people. The first year of LBC in its current form,

everyone on it was famous. Even Boy George had a show. And so I just snuck in at the last hurdle. They gave me 10 o'clock on Sunday nights. But that was my show, whereas previously I'd always been doing swing and covering for others. So 10 o'clock Sunday nights, I go on air, first show, set up my stall.

It hasn't been a phone-in show previously for the last few years it had been at some sort of music hybrid show and the audience as you know is quite habitual if it's not a phone in show last Sunday at 10 o'clock then it's not a phone in show this Sunday at 10 o'clock even if there's some Herbert in the studio going ring me ring me please

ring me no one rings quarter past 10 half past 10 quarter to 11 11 o'clock not a single phone call not just like we're put on a bad phone call but not a single phone call quarter past 11 I see this number light up on the switchboard and I go I know that number that's my number and it was my wife phoning from the landline at home

pretending to be somebody else and as soon as she'd come on and done it I mean you can pull faces about how sweet it is but I'd been there for an hour and 15 minutes I'd been hanging there for an hour and 15 minutes but once that seal was broken the next call was my best mate

Luke who for reasons I don't know was worried people he's an actor he was worried people might recognise his accent so he came on as Northern Irish He came on and said, hey, no, Ryan Kay. And then like two minutes into the conversation, he's completely fevering. I really want to hear this show. I don't think this tape exists anywhere.

And then that was that, that went really well. And then that was, that is, that was kind of the trajectory that I'm still on now. I think they gave me the weekend breakfast show after six months. And then the slot I've got now six months after that, which in retrospect is, is extraordinary. Because now I'd be doing a four or five year apprenticeship in the boondocks. even if I was lucky enough to get a shift, it would be overnight or something like that, which is a mark of how far the station has come. Do you have to do much preparation?

No. But that's what we talked about earlier. It's like being good at football. It's not a particularly honed skill. I've always really liked talking. You know how Frank sometimes talks about how he says he sits on the toilet and pretends he's the England managers and gives like inspirational team talks? I love that because that's the child.

isn't it? That's someone who's never really grown up in the most beautiful sense. Yes, what I do. I sometimes, if I'm listening to your show, and I think, oh, I'd be much better if I was that caller. And I fantasise about what I'd say is the caller. And I think James would say, oh, that's amazing. Well, I would. And I fantasize, it's for that I imagine. These are my, you know, those on the, we call it on the toilet managing Barcelona moments.

Sensation. Can I call it? My on the toilet managing Barcelona, honest to God, it's just so about. I don't care if anyone knows, is that I'm on the James O'Brien show and saying, well, I've just got a point I'd like to make James. And he says, wow, that is incredible. Of all the callers we've ever had. That is the one.

And he just talks about it for months after. That's lovely. Isn't that sad? That's what I think of fantasising. That's sad at all. That's fantastic. I'm interested, James, when it must be a tricky thing to navigate, because it's something I often speak to comics about is this sense that,

in a way, when they get into a verbal combat situation with someone, they're like a heavyweight boxer. Yeah. You know? So, and when you're getting into situations and it's the mother-in-law saying something a bit irritating or something, you know, you have to... You mean off-air now? Yeah, off-air. Just that you have to be a bit conscious of your own strength.

Yeah. They do now. I wasn't as a younger person. Really? On air or off-air. Yeah. Yeah. If someone's racist, I don't think I do need to be conscious.

If someone comes on with some really vile views, even on things like hitting children, not just the race and the obvious stuff, then I think it's my duty to squash them. But I was using the same tactics on people who'd rung in with a relatively reasonable opinion on something I just happened to disagree with. And I'd have the same arsenal of ammunition.

I'd be rolling out the same guns. And I don't think that was a very pleasant listen, actually. I don't think anybody wants to hear somebody. I mean, there's a few things better than hearing someone who deserves it get absolutely brutalized on the radio. But there's not a lot to enjoy. You've got to be quite sadistic if it's someone who doesn't deserve it, getting brutalized on the radio. So certainly I've worked quite hard on that. And off air, I don't really argue with people anymore.

That was therapy, actually. I had to win every single argument. Because if I didn't win the argument, then I was vulnerable. and I could never be vulnerable. I see it in other public figures in the media in particular who've clearly not done the work, not being lucky enough to find the right therapist or realise that they need it.

And you'll appreciate this. It can propel you career-wise. You can be that Teflon fighting cock, but you can't be very happy inside, whether you realise it or not, that constant sense of adrenalineation and that constant hypervigilance and that constant having to prove

that you're right about everything and never being able to step down and never being able to say that you're wrong. It can be really rocket fuel for elements of this career, of this profession, but it's not good for you at all personally. And that was the big breakthrough on therapy. So I said to, I did remember saying to my therapist, I said, I hope you're not going to therapy me out of a career because things are going really well now.

It should be about 2016, 2017. Things are going really well better than I ever kind of expected. I've kind of given up on that next level of. renowned and then it happened and I said I hope you're not going to therapy me out of a career and she I mean you know what they do they don't reply do they most of the time they're looking all fucking owl-like and sage and and wise but I did worry I did worry that I might go back on air and I'm not going to be kicking people around the studio anymore but it's it's worked out

so it's a very very different show I've still got that in my locker but it doesn't get aired I think there was a little period after Brexit where it felt like I was doing it all day, every day. People would ring in, say, it's brilliant. And I'd go, why? And then they'd slowly or quickly unravel to the point where I go, all right, name one law that you are really looking forward to not having to obey. And I go, well, all of them, all of that.

So I loved that. That was really nice kind of badinage. But no, you can't be turning up with a sledgehammer when someone else has got a toothpick, even, you know, not on a regular basis. So happily, I think that that has resolved itself really. But Brexit, you've said yourself, you know, it was great for your career. I am the only Brexit benefit. Not great for your blood pressure.

No, not good for my soul either. And it's happening again now with America, you know. It's Trump's great for business. Loads to talk about. I think Trump represents a really, really grave danger to democracy in America. I think people are frightened of acknowledging what's in front. front of their eyes. And so I do feel it. I'm on holiday next week and I need it. I can sense that caring too much about the news is kicking in because the news is so big now on this issue,

on the American issue. I thought we'd be relaxing when Stama got into Downing Street. It's a domestically I am, but now you've got this huge uptick of involvement and engagement with American politics. I can't do anything about that. I can't influence it in any way. But I need to get away from the studio. You asked a minute ago about preparing. That's what I do. I prepare by the same way my dad always had the Today program on when he was driving me to school when I was nine.

We just lived our lives immersed in news. That's what he did, it's what I do. But you have to get out of it. Does the Port Cullis come down a bit when you go home? Because presumably you must be fizzing with stuff when you come home. Yes, you know. I get quite tired, to be honest. The girls will ask me questions, which I always like,

because it's nice to know they think I can help them with stuff and I always do my best to answer them but we don't have big heated political there's less political conversation around our dinner table than there was around my dinner table at home and that's nice you know we're more likely to talk about Taylor Swift so your books James have become hugely successful yeah and I know that because I've read all of them

and they're very other than CS Lewis there are very few authors I can say I suppose say, well, he's written a lot more than I have. It's not quite the compliment. No, but I mean the sort of contemporary authors. Oh, thank you, yeah. But you write brilliantly. I hope so. And the most recent one that you've written

was how they broke Britain. Yes, I'm very proud of that. It's a proper book. The other two were a little bit self-referential. Oh, I don't think so. Well, the first one had an awful lot of transcripts from the radio show in it, so it was a little bit, look at me, look at me, being so clever. It had a purpose to it.

as you know, and a point. But the third one is a proper. It's a proper attempt to understand how we could have created this ecosystem in which the really mad stuff could happen. Yeah. You know, it started off thinking, well, it doesn't get much madder than Brexit, and then it doesn't get much madder than Boris Johnson, and it doesn't get much madder than Liz Truss,

and it kept getting madder and madder and madder. And I just thought, this can't be a coincidence. There must be something that's happened to the country, to the population. There's a sort of a charge sheet for the main villains. And I kept changing my mind But I was reading it because Well about who should be in it No, who is the worst villain?

Who's the worst out of all of them? I think it's a great paler game Yeah, it is And it does change you're right Depending on what chapter you're on Yeah, because it's obviously everyone From, you know, is David Cameron, Boris Johnson Yeah

Dominic Cummings And I've got to say he's in my number one villain spot right now Is he really? I worry he knows better Yeah You know? Yeah, okay I think there's an element of Cameron and Johnson

they're so immersed. They couldn't help themselves. In that insane sort of marlch-mello bubble of privilege, they don't know any better. They've got no other reference. Whereas I think he knows. He knows what he's doing and I think that might make him a bit worse.

That's interesting. That's really interesting. Because I think that because he genuinely wasn't in it for the kind of trappings that the rest of them were in it for, he really wanted to get his hands on the levers of power because he really thought he'd be really good at it and be able to make real change,

whereas the rest of them are just sort of dilettance, really, who, I mean Cameron literally said, when they said, why do you want to be prime minister? He's well, I think I'd be rather good at it. How is that a desire to govern a country? I think I'd be rather good at it. Might as well take up Morris dancing. When I'm at one with the universe,

Dacre's the worst of them all. Paul Dacre. Paul Dacre. But when I'm, When I'm feeling a bit more kind of, when my mind is fizzing a bit more, I can make a strong case with David Cameron and bearing more responsibility than any of them for the post-2015 collapse. Well, you're very angry when you wrote that book. It gives you energy anger.

Yes, it does. Which is why it's a great book. Well, yeah, I think, yes. Well, to be honest with you, I think it's a more anger-making experience to read it than to write it. I found it quite cathartic. I wanted to get it all in one place. I almost wanted to persuade myself I hadn't gone mad and that these things did often interlink

and that there were relationships between apparently quite disparate events or individuals. And so quite a lot of the time, and I'm not a natural author. It's like pulling teeth for me. I really do. Hey, I'm going to stop you doing that. I think you put yourself down quite a lot. Yeah? I've noticed that about you. Well, it's better than the opposite,

which has probably been more of a common... behavioural mode. No, but I'm not saying, that's not modesty. I'm really bad at getting in behind my desk. That's laziness. It's just, you know, I wake up with that knowledge on a Saturday where you should really be putting out 3,000 words today. But I think the reason you do that, James,

is I wonder if that's because, I think with the privilege of your education, there's a part of you still wanting to make it clear that you're not one of them. Oh, maybe. Yeah. No, maybe. So just enjoy it more.

in other words. Well, you do seem to enjoy it then. Well, that's what I was coming to. When I found something that proved the thesis and it happened a lot in the book, more than I was, I dared to hope, really. And you go, God, God, really? They did that.

And they, oh, and of course, those moments were magical. They weren't anger-making at all. But if you're reading them, you'll be like, the fuckers, how could they have let that? So it was quite nice to see the, like a Rubik's cube almost, you know? Well, I thoroughly recommend reading it now as well, because you don't get that sense of it being quite so impotent.

It's got a happy ending. Exactly. You even know the happy ending isn't it in the book. We've just said impotent and then happy ending. It's fine. These things happen on a podcast. But, you know, no, I felt, oh God, yes, exactly. It's the ending we all wanted.

Well, I said something like, I can't speak for other people politically, but surely anyone didn't want that. Nobody wanted it to carry on like it was. Nobody. What are people like, do you ever run into the people you've written about and talk about, Not often. I don't really go in for that whole sociable hanging out. I think that's part of the problem, actually. I think the reason why the lobby, the political journalists,

struggled in my view to properly appreciate and chronicle the scale of the corruption that was unfolding in front of us was because they're all mates. Even if they might not share the same politics, they share the same bread, they share the same tables. Sometimes they godparents to each other's children. and the level of what I would call depravity that Boris Johnson brought to politics and the level of idiocy that Brexit brought,

they couldn't, even if they were pro-remain and Labour voters, they couldn't quite appreciate the scale of the awfulness that Brexit and Johnson appreciated because they couldn't imagine their friends would be complicit in such corruption or so ignorant and wrong about what leaving the European Union would mean. So I don't do much social for fairly obvious reasons.

talk to that little explanation. And I don't like hanging out with politicians whose politics are closer to mine because I then find it much harder to give them a kicking when they do something wrong. I like to try to be an equal opportunity. Critic of bad political behaviour, whether it's in their personal lives

or more often in their political lives. And also when it happens, I don't know what you're supposed to do, Emily. So Richard Tice came up to me once in a bar yes exactly and I knew

for some reason this happens quite a lot with people that I and you know most people don't listen every day so there's no way

what's wrong with them yeah well exactly but they don't they might know or he's been a bit mean about me but they might not realise

just how critical so he comes up to because this is probably going to introduces himself I kind of knew who he was introduces himself

and says this is probably going to wow is that a real talk James? Yes, it is. It looks like a wolf, doesn't it? Oh my God.

Wow. What is it, James? Is it husky? I don't know. Well, it's, I don't know, actually. Don't ask me. Akita? I think it might be an Akita, but it's quite young.

I mean, it basically may as well have a man. It's like having Greg Davis. You wouldn't. Don't you think? Yeah, you wouldn't chance for wrong getting onto that boat uninvited, would you? It looks like a wolf. Oh, it's a guard. It's a guard dog, James.

It's fantastic. Hello, darling. Beautiful, though. Yeah, but you know what? I just said, hello, darling. And then he gave me a sort of pewsing bear. Go on. So he comes up. This will probably really surprise you, but I think your show's fantastic.

I listen every day. And I'm like, this is Nigel Farage's sponsor, isn't it, at the moment? And I think what they've done. And so I just told him. I said, I think you're fucking disgusting. And I can't believe that, you know, You expect me to be polite to you. So that was an interesting.

Did you say that? Yeah, I did. He got home and he got home, he got straight on the phone to the Gido Forks website, who wrote it up in shocked tones. It'd be hypocritical of me to go, oh, that's so nice of you. Hey, well, you know, it's as if they think that we're all playing the same game on different teams and that takes me back to John Major because it was true then. We were all playing this same game on different teams.

We agreed on what the rules were. You knew what the rules of engagement were. But what has happened since 2015 is that they've abandoned it. Or you see it more in America. But here, Owen Patterson, their response to him breaking the rules was to try to rip up the rules and Brexit, the abandonment of the truth. So I don't want to be respectful opponent to some of it. of these people. I'd be a respectful opponent to you know

Michael Heseltine or Rory Stewart but not to not to the people who I think have broken Britain I truly do it's not a throwaway book title. There was a different breed of cutey there. Oh James look little family they say well this is quite a good survival rate

for three of them. They're moorhens little more hens. A little more hens. Little baby moorans, they're adolescent now. But there's quite a lot of herons around here, and the herons get the chicks. So they've done well. That lovely noise as well. They're so sweet.

Look at the little pelt on those ones. Being with nature is so good for my mental health. Same. I've got much more into it lately. Have you? Have you? Yeah, I got an app. Have you got chirp-matic?

No. You record bird song. It tells you what the bird is. So you can sort of collect them like top-trump cards. I did it on the show the other day. There was some bird song in the background. And I said, just be quiet a minute. Oh yes, I think of that.

Just be quiet a minute. I'm going to try and catch that. I did hear that. I saw it on the YouTube best bits that they do. I'm so sorry. Raymond out the way. Oh, don't, Paul. I'm interested in how you are confronting people outside of your job.

So friends, for example, or having to have difficult conversations. Do you find those equally easy in your... civilian life. I don't really do it. Do you not? No. What sort of thing do you mean? What I mean is if you're unhappy with someone or...

You must have that, you know, occasionally if someone lets you down or... Yeah. No, I'm not very good at it. Do you know what I am? I'm an absolutely terrible one for sending people to Coventry. Is it... Why is that so funny? Because very few people admit that.

Oh, really? Oh, no, I can go... I can cut you out. completely. It happens very, very, very rarely, but when it does happen, I can almost ignore your existence. Are you a champion ghoster? Is it ghosting? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, all right, I am. I think it's easier that way.

You know what it is? It's quite British and it's quite private school, is what I hate to say. Is it? Is it? Well, I think, I don't know. Because I would have thought the British private school thing was not to actually take anything seriously enough to reach that point where. No, I mean it. Well, we're all in it together. Never mind. So, Brian, he's a lefty, you know.

But he's okay. He's one of the good ones. And so my best friend, I didn't speak to you for two years. We fell out. Yeah. I can't even remember why, but I didn't speak for two years. And he'd spend a month trying to make up and so, and I just wouldn't answer. Back when we had answer phones, that's how long ago it was.

And I'd know when he'd called because so much of the tape had been taken up. But then two years later, I bumped into him somewhere and we just carried on where we'd left off. But no, there's been a... So you're quite conflict avoidant, oddly, in your real life. But I'm really interested, James, that you're not... Well, it doesn't happen very often. But if I feel that someone has let me down, I go a bit nuclear.

Especially if it's someone that I feel I have helped or being good for or good too. I think that's pride as well. It's making me... You've made me feel stupid. For trusting you or for looking after you. You've made me feel stupid and I'm not going to deal with that. I'm just going to cut you out completely. Also, sometimes I do think in life,

I think that's one thing therapy I certainly found. When you unpeel those layers and you get rid of all the the sort of pretend person you've been wheeling out for years, it can get quite difficult because people get very attached to the old idea of you. Yes, yes. So, you know, certain people will hang around. and they'll think, oh, okay, this is a bit weird. I didn't know she did things like set boundaries.

Right, yes. But in some ways, that's quite useful, though, because there are people. Edits, doesn't it? It becomes an editing process. And I can't imagine you're a people pleaser, though. No, as in you'll be untrue to yourself in order to... Yeah. No, I'm not.

I think I probably was once a bit. Are you good at saying sorry? Yeah, I am actually. Are you? Yeah. If you have a row with Lucy, are you normally the... Yeah, I am. Well, to be fair, touch wood, but we don't really row anymore.

We used to row a lot, but since I had therapy, we seem to have been in a much healthier place. I used to say things like to friends of mine who didn't, I said, well, you can't possibly love each other. How can you possibly have a love affair unless you have passionate ralds? It's a huge part of the romantic cycle. But, yeah, I mean, still... What do you think that was about now, are you saying that? Disregulation, probably, don't you think? And passion, I mean, but...

Also sort of normalising conflict. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thinking it was proof of the depth of your commitment to each other. She never did. She's always been much wiser than me. But no, I do find it easy to... Not easy to say so. If it's easy, you don't mean it, do you?

I find it possible to get to a place where much against my wishes, I recognise I was wrong or I have done something wrong. And I will apologise. I sent my sister flowers last month. Did you? Why? Because we had a big row when I was at home. We've rowed forever, my sister and I. She could do my job with her eyes shut,

but she's never had the first bit of interest in that side of things. And I got, I was on the train back, still. still a bit stewy, still fuming and just realised I'd been bang out of order and I'd said things that I really shouldn't have said. So I sent her flowers and said sorry. And, you know, 10 years ago, that would have been utterly unthinkable. I'd like utterly unthinkable. So that's nice. That's progress, isn't it? Was she pleased? Oh, she was absolutely, she melted, absolutely melted. Oh. It was really, oddly special actually. So out of a, run. of the mill but unpleasant situation something quite quite lovely emerged you all

interesting is this would you do that you've seen that before so we've just come to a canal boat and it's called do you're allowed to name it james yeah it's a public wessex rose and it's a hotel boat yeah two cabins i think would you stay on there with lucy yeah but i think only if we knew the other people if it was like my brother-in-law and lucy's sister or if it was family or really good mates. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to be that close, that cheek by jail with strangers, do you? Well, do you? Some people do, don't they? I quite like the look of it, James. Look at this. Hello. Oh, they look really sweet. Isn't that lovely? They look happy to see you. See, I think people are quite happy to see you,

James, don't you? Yes. How do you find being famous? I really like it. I'm not even going to pretend. I think it's great. The family don't anymore. It was great when it was a novelty but now you know it's interrupting family time or coming up in a restaurant and asking for a selfie I think that's perfectly reasonable behaviour but they're not convinced I love it I think you've got a very nice kind of fame as well yes this is yeah my dad always said when I was when I was younger you know the best kind of fame is you want to kind of Martin Amis fame yeah that's not and I said why you know really good one yeah and I said like he

goes because the level of respect you get your name is respected yeah yeah But you don't get absolutely, you can still walk down the shops and it's not unpleasant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you've got the Martin Amos phone. That's what you want. I take that all day long. I take that all day. My goddaughter, who's 15, I took her out for lunch the other day.

And she said with a sort of mixture of surprise and delight, she said, you're low-key famous, aren't you? Low-key. Low-key famous. James, I also love your podcast. You do a brilliant podcast called Full Disclosure, which is, there's the two sides of James, you see. I think the radio show, the LBC radio show is, that's like Red Bull James. And then full disclosures like Earl Grey T.

I like that, yeah, I like that. It's not Red Bull anymore. It's a bit more kind of. It's urban James versus country James. Yeah, okay, that works. Well, do you have that? Yeah, I do. That works.

That works. I like the two sides to you. I love doing the podcast because you really, like this, you really get the chance talk to someone properly, you'd never do on any other medium, do you? So who do you get excited about and nervous about interviewing? Well, I get intellectually insecure. So when I was doing Sam and Rushdie, I've done twice now, once on Zoom during lockdown and once in person. And I don't listen back because I know in the first 10 minutes, I would have shoehorned in some pathetic attempt to show how erudite I am.

Yes, it's that thing where you find yourself doing... Coating a poet or something like that. Oh, well, of course. It reminds me of Walt Whitman. Some old bollocks like that. So that's a sign of me being a form of being starstruck. Yes. Oh, James, what a lovely thing to do to spend an afternoon with James O'Brien.

I had a joyous time. And the lovely polly. And the lovely polly. Not used to walks that long. She'll sleep tonight, James. She will. You seem like you're in a really good place at the moment in your life. Yeah, and that's when I start worrying.

Isn't it, though? This can't last. Well, I've got a bit of angst about Trump. So that's like my work brain. And then things are nice everywhere else. Do you still worry about Brexit? There's nothing we can do about it now. No, I did at the time when I thought we could maybe change it.

But in retrospect, I think that was probably wrong to try to. People said to me at the time, you have to let people. realise what it means you can't just keep telling them so and they were right you know you see the numbers now the idea that it was worth doing is untenable really not just unsustainable but no one's ever going to believe that until they've queued up for four hours to get through the customs postings so people still come up to you and say I was wrong I would not you know I was calm they do on the show they do on the show it doesn't happen it happens a little bit in real life

because obviously my position was very public. And so I've got one friend who his wife said to me, halfway through another lunch where we were talking about it. And she said, you do know he voted leave, aren't you? And I thought, ooh. I don't they get that old cut. Yeah, well, it was more because I thought we could be a sort of buccaneering 19th century trading nation. I'd go, all right, mate.

Wend your neck in. All right, Jacob. Oh, I love this house. James, just FYI, this is the house I'm going to buy. Well, that, I think that one is, that one's stunning, actually. We had a look at that during lockdown, but because during lockdown, you underestimated the potential impact of being right next to the pub with a very big garden.

So I was all for putting a bid in on that, but once again, my wife, very wisely said, I think she's a force for good in your life. Yeah, she's the best thing by a country mile. Is she? yeah. Very, very blessed. James, this has been an absolute delight. Oh, same. Thank you.

What a delightful man you are. You're everything I hoped and more. And Polly. Thank you. She's behaved impeccably. Look at her. Inpeckably, you shall be fed tonight, Polly. She's just lovely company. I love what you said about human expert

because you think with your own dog, you're imagining it, don't you? No, she's pretty special. Listen, I don't want to boast, but I meet a lot of dogs in my line of work. And I know a special one when I see one. Oh, thank you. She's a special one. She's a Jose Marina of dogs.

She does this little thing. I don't know if you've seen it. She must be some evolutionary inheritance. She lifts up one paw as if she's about to go chasing an antelope through the savannah. But she's like, you know, she's one foot nothing. She gave me a lovely hug then. Bye-bye, darling, James. It's been so lovely.

No, thank you. Bye-bye, handsome man. What did you make of my husband? See you later. Cute. Absolutely gorgeous. They're quite a pair actually, aren't they? They could do adverts together, couldn't they?

They could. Do you do a dog voice, by the way? Not really, no. Certainly not in public. Sometimes I catch Lucy doing it. I say, you never talk to me like that. I never hear that love in your voice when you're talking to me. I bet.

How do you call Polly? Go on. I call her Polly Pops. So I will go, Polly Pops. Come on Polly Polly Pops. Pops. Hello Polly Pops. You're such a good girl, aren't you? So yeah, I do kind of have a dog You do really have a dog voice. I do have a dog voice, but don't tell anyone. Okay. All right, thank you. Bye-bye. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you

subscribed and do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.