Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jamie Cullum

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

In this Christmas Special Emily goes for a walk with Jamie Cullum and Daniel the Spaniel from The Dog’s Trust. They talk about Jamie’s early years, his relationship with his wife Sophie Dahl, his new Christmas album and getting to play for Barack Obama. To find out more about The Dog’s Trust, visit dogstrust.org.uk/changethetale. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's the most adorable thing. Is it really? Yeah, there's you appearing on pop. Nobody likes the word adorable, do they? Is that a good word? Welcome to a very special Christmas edition of Walking the Dog. My guest is the dream guest for any Christmas sing-along because he kind of knows his way around a piano quite well.

It's only Jamie Cullum. He's sold over 10 million albums and he's got fans all over the globe. He's even played at the White House. Jamie and I met in North West London. and he was fabulous. We talked about his early years, what it was like to become a musical sensation at such a young age,

his lovely relationship with his wife, Sophie Dahl, and getting to play for Barack Obama. Jamie does have a dog called Jojo, who's a beautiful rescue, but she gets quite anxious in new spaces. I know the feeling, Jojo. So he made the very responsible decision to leave her at home,

and instead we took out, wait for this, Daniel the Spaniel, from the Dogs Trust, who are an incredible organisation that help not just with rehearsals, roaming dogs, but also they provide services to help owners struggling to keep dogs. So please do visit dogstrust.org.org.com for more info or to donate, because they need your money right now. Jamie is a real gent. He's very sweet-natured and he clearly loves dogs.

So all in all, I can't get enough of Cullum. And I guarantee you will love his album, The Piano Man at Christmas. It's a beautiful collection of his own Christmas-inspired songs. It's nostalgic and warm and gorgeously seasonal, bit like James. himself so do give it a download i really hope you enjoy my walk with jamie and daniel the spaniel and ray and oh yes happy christmas to all my lovely loyal walking the dog listeners ray's lorry kindly giving me a present early doors this year so i better go and clean it up i'll shut up now and hand over to the man himself here's jami how old is raymond Raymond?

Ageless. He's ageless, surely. If you wanted to pick the total opposite to your dog, my dog is the answer. Not just, I mean, he's, I'll tell you when we're going to put his, I'll put his harness on. Isn't I love that we've started at the bandstand. It's so appropriate. What is he? What is his breed?

I love how unbalanced the just general, selection of hair is. It's amazing. Jamie's not talking about me by the way. It's the proportion of the hair is so, it's so, it's the opposite of aerodynamic, isn't it? Jamie, he's shaming my dog's hair distribution. Definitely not. Listen, I've got nothing, nothing to own up to there. What an amazing, I love him. He's amazing. Well, we've got two dogs today, haven't we? We've got my dog Raymond, who's a shih Tzu. A shih Tzu. That's right. There we go. Now I know what I'm talking about. My brother has one. two actually yeah Ben that's right he has two shitsies and we have Daniel which we've borrowed I

don't quite know where did Daniel come from again? He's from Dogs Trust Darlington Daniel's really he loves catching leaves you just throw him a leaf he's happy and what what kind of dog is Daniel can't we call him Daniel the Spaniel they're communicating through the medium of urine so the reason I brought Daniel the Spaniel or this lovely friend of Austin the Dogs Trust has is because I know know you have a rescue dog. I do, yeah. And I work a lot with dogs trust because obviously it's a brilliant charity and cause.

So I thought we'd bring along the rescue, Jamie, just because then you can tell me about your rescue. You've got a dog, I've got a dog, no one feels left out. Exactly. Come on, Daniel, we're going. Come on, come on. Now, Jamie, this is your manner. So, well, it was your manner.

I'm going to rely on you directions-wise. Do you know what? I feel you've been sold a bit of a lie there. I never quite made it to Queens Park. I kept really within like the Kendall Rise kind of triangle between three pubs. And we rarely left there to be honest. We might end up here by accident. But I was here in my, I was here in my, I was, I lived in this part of London in my 20s.

This is West London, sort of north-west London. North West London. Yeah, we're in Queens Park. So I, but I was. probably about a mile and a half down the road and that's practically another country in london isn't it really i want to i should introduce you jami i'm really excited about this because i'm such a fan of your music and thank you i was saying to you earlier it's kind of got me through this year um i'm with the very wonderful jamey cullum who is i mean he's got

so many accolades to his name i don't even know where to stop but i just love his music really that's how i'm going to describe him i'm very flattered thank you so much so much And I'm so thrilled to have you and I've been dying to get you on my podcast and it turns out you in London. You don't live in London, do you? No, I live outside of London now but I've lived here. I lived here for a good 12 years. Hello. Oh my God, how you doing?

I'm very well. Hi, Teresa. This is Emily. We're actually recording a podcast right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. It's like this is going out live to the nation. This is Louis from my record label, head of Ireland. Yeah. I'm Emily. This is Raymond. My podcast is for The Times and it's called Walking the Dog. And I take people for a walk with their dogs.

Jamie's, obviously his dog is at home. So he's got a rescue dog called Daniel with us. Come on Daniel. Come and say hi. He likes to leave. This is. Beautiful. This is Raymond and Jamie's already. Oh God. He's gorgeous. Absolutely. Adorable. Oh my Lord. I have to get one. What makes us for me? What? What? What? What? He's such a head of a record company. What makes it? Can you get someone on that please? I want that. He's a shit too. So how's the interview going? Well we literally just started. Yeah exactly. She was just flattering me. Come on then. Let's get walking. See you. We're well. Really nice to meet you. Bye. Hi. Hi. Bye. Come on. What a dog.

Oh, come on Daniel. Daniel, come here. Come here. Good boy. You see you're a dad, so how do you feel when you hear that? I feel more for the parents, anything else. You know what they've got to do. You know what they've got to get done. They're just trying to get through their day, aren't they, kind of putting out fires? How do you deal with it when your kids cry in public? How do I deal with it?

I think the point is it's very easy to, it's very easy to forget that there's obviously a reason. And there's obviously a reason why they're having a bit of a freak out and try and concentrate on that. and that rather than feeling any kind of embarrassment. And actually generally, I think if you're a parent and you see another parent's kids having a hard time, they have some level of understanding that they just need to be left alone to get on with it and not judged and just, there you go.

We're all in it together. Yes. Oh, don't you? You sound like a good dad. Do you think? Yeah. Just on that one statement alone. I like it. That's quite past the test already.

So we should, yeah, we were in the middle of explaining. You just ran into your, I was going to say your colleague from Island Records, but he was the head of Louis. Yeah. Was he the head of Island Records? He's the head of Island Records. Louis Bloom, yeah. He's so young, isn't he?

He is, yeah. Yeah. The record industry is young. I mean, I'm older than most of them now. Oh, don't see that, Jamie Collins. Hello, darling. Raymond's just on a poo in front of a little child. Sorry about that, guys.

That was actually so ninja the way you did that. It's like, it's like, I'm so impressed. there was no kind of fuffing around. You just scooped it up like it was like breathing. I'm a pro, Jamie. You are a pro. So we're not with, we're in Queens Park today. And the reason we're here, and we're with a dog from the dogs trust, Daniel the Spaniel, is because you're in London for the day, kind of working on you, but you didn't bring your dog. And tell me why that is and tell me a bit about your dog. So I never had a dog before. I didn't grow up with dogs. I grew up with many people who had dogs and were around dogs.

Come on, darling. Come on, come on, come on. And we got, my wife and I, Sophie and I, we got a rescue dog about four years ago from an amazing charity called Wilder Heart Foundation. I was neither pro or against dog. I'm just, I'm quite, I'm quite easy going in that sense. Yeah, let's get a dog, that sounds great. And she has been the most difficult and the best thing in our life. She's, she's amazing. She's amazing. but she she's definitely I think you'd describe her as like a reactive dog she's very anxious she's very hypervigilant and so she's wonderful at home she's such a lovely dog she's so kind and gentle and tidy and just she's just a loving loving

and she's very there's a very human aspect to her I think probably a lot of people say that about their dogs but she's very very difficult around other dogs and anywhere outside where where we live. She's virtually kind of impossible. So, and I think we've just realized that the happiest way for her to live her life is to accept who she is. And if rather than trying to say, no, you're going to get them back of the car and you are going to come to the beach and you're going to like it, which you kind of, you fantasize what your dog's going to be like. I don't know, maybe, maybe I did. And eventually we just realized that we had to, we had to, we had to accept accept the personality that she is and she had a, you know, she was found on a rubbish dump.

And was, I mean, I think they thought she was, she was barely alive when they found her as a puppy. And where was this, Jamie? This was, I think it was in Lesfos in Greece. Gosh. And she's such a, she's an amazing presence in our life. She's a total part of our family. But she's not a dog. I mean, the idea of taking her here to me, it's like a comedy sketch and waiting.

She'd just be skitting around everywhere, freaking out. If she could smell a deer from five miles away, she'd be off like a shot. You know, she's kind of like a beautiful, wild animal. Do you know, I think that's really lovely that story, because it tells me that you and Sophie, your approach was very much, let's, I don't know, let's let her be her own person in a strange way, that you're working around her. So you're right, we tend to do that with dogs, don't we?

We think, I want a dog to be like this. rather than think, well, they're sort of sentient beings, well, I think they are with their own needs, and they come differently, don't they? Well, that was not initially, I think, I didn't know that because I had no experience. But we got in touch with it. And you were like, why aren't you behaving like a normal dog?

Well, I mean, to be honest, I did think that. And, you know, we were reading all the books and all these different approaches. And then we got a dog trainer, and it was like, don't look at them here. And, you know, there was, the problem is also, she's not food motivators. you can't train her with food. I mean, if she doesn't want to eat, she can go for a couple of days without eating.

But we met an amazing dog trainer who just, he really helped us understand exactly what you just said about, you know, we try and make dogs into exactly what we want them to be. And actually, sometimes they need to be who they are. And actually, we found out a way to make sure that her life is as happy as it can be, really. Oh, that's my dog, isn't it? on Daniel come on come and you got to stay with us you got to stay with us Raymond do you know they're playing really nicely together look does Raymond play nice with most other dogs? Raymond's really submissive right do you know what Raymond Raymond is a people-pleaser because I'm quite a people-pleaser and I think he is as well so in a social situation he'll let the dog come to him he'll

lets them take control. Right. And it seems to work well. I think he's worked out that he's small, so... You don't seem like someone who does that off the top of my head, though. I'm not saying you're not a people please, yeah? If someone with a bigger personality than me came in, I would let them win. Yes. Do you see? I totally know that, because I recognise that and myself for... Are you like that? I mean, I think it took me a long time to realise that you could say no to things, for sure for many years and not letting people, not wanting to let people down to my detriment for quite a few years. But I think that's quite common for people starting off youngish in the music industry and an industry where you assume everyone else knows better than you.

Yeah. And actually it takes you a while to kind of follow your own intuition and your own instinct. Come on, Daniel. This way. We're over here. Jamie, I want to go back to your childhood. You didn't have a dog, did you, growing up? No, I did not. And your parents, were they, so I had this idea of a dog family and it sounds to me like you and Sophie have created what I would describe as the dream dog family. It's like you've got the dog, you've got a lovely house, you've got the kids, it all, it feels that you've got stability and yet I feel you had that as a kid.

You've always talked about your family life being quite stable. Yes, I mean it definitely, I think I've come to understand. my family life in a lot more interesting ways I've gotten older because it's really I hadn't realised the impact of both my parents being you know fresh off a boat from other countries as as children my dad was born in Jerusalem and my mom was born in Burma and they both came over as young children and had to kind of make their way in the really kind of challenging circumstances but also being slightly kind of carriled into being as as they possibly could.

So it's quite interesting to me how much of their life and their parents' life were kind of quarterized kind of culturally. So actually I had an Indian grandfather and a Burmese grandmother. And I had a very Prussian Jewish grandmother. And you know the only English part of my family is my dad's dad, who died before I was born. Oh really? So I had this incredibly culturally diverse background. background but I think they were because they were shoved into this country and

very much kind of had to get on in the best way they could under quite challenge under very challenging circumstances I feel like they they they made it stable because that's they had they had they had to make it stable and they're great people my parents they're amazing it sounds like your parents are actually very creative and there was a very musical sort of sort of quite cultural family environment. And I think I get the impression from you that, you know, your dad works in finance. And I wonder whether there's a sense that's quite common with people, sort of immigrant parents in a way,

is I'm going to let my, I'm going to do this job so my kids have the freedom to do what they want. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, that's very perceptive thing to say, because I think my parents easily both could have been led creative lives, for sure. But the idea of that would have been a joke. And to be honest, when I was growing up, whilst I was pursuing creative things, the idea of it being in my job was never something I would have considered. Not until I was, I didn't really even think I would do a creative job until I was in my late teens.

Even when I was studying a mixture of film and English and all those things at uni, I still thought, well, I'll still end up with a proper job and I'll do this on the week. I'll play in pubs on the weekend. Who do? Well, yeah. Look, what's happened to Daniel, Jamie? What's he doing?

He's playing with the Tai Chi people. Are they doing Tai Chi? I'm not sure. Interpretive dance. Come on Daniel. Who's your master, Daniel? Is it me? I don't think it is.

He's very, he's such a happy little fella, isn't he? He's got such a nice energy. Who said that? The Park Warden said, do we have to put them both on the lead? Okay, he's okay on the lead. I'll put them on the lead, no worries. You sure? Yeah, of course.

Come on, good boy. Come on, come on, let's go. We could grab a cheeky coffee on the way? That sounds great. Would you like that? I'll treat you because I want, just to congratulate you on your brilliant album, which we're going to discuss. I'm getting in the Christmas mood. Oh, I love it, Jamie.

I'm so happy to hear that. I love it. I loved making it. It was so, it was so fun and quite a challenge to write new. It's actually more of a challenge than I expected to write new Christmas songs that were aiming to sound kind of classic. But once I started kind of getting into my notes about all the things I wanted to write about at Christmas, it just started kind of flowing. Did you talk, were you inspired at all by your kids or anything?

Or do you just... I think, yeah, inspired by kind of family Christmases. Yeah. And, you know, obviously, one's... And just trying to remember things I experienced as a kid. And also, yeah, the newer Christmases you have with your own children. Yeah, yeah. It's a rich thing to write about.

And I think it's trying to treat it uncynically as well. Jamie, what can I get you and also you guys? What are you getting? Oh. night, do you know what, a fancy quite a sort of 80s lard at home. Oh, good, good for you. Excellent. I won't join you in that, but I'll have a black coffee please. 70s, Camposino? Yeah. Black coffee's good. I think 70s are they? So you're, yeah, when you're growing up, I'm interested in that. We were talking about your family and, but it wasn't like a pet's family.

We always had cats. But both my parents worked, it just wouldn't, we wouldn't have been able to have a dog really anyway. But no, we always had cats. I love, I love, there was never, there was never, my parents had never not near. a cat. Really? They're definitely more kind of cat people. I know there's a bit of a kind of social divide between people that love cats and people love dogs, isn't there? Which are you?

Well, I'm both now because we have cats and dogs. Do you mean? Yeah, no, I like I like animals. You know, I'm an animal person. Daniel, aka I love animals, it's 11 and a half years old. Really? How was your dog, Jamie? She's probably about four now, I reckon.

I suppose you don't know, do you? Yeah, she's definitely around four years. years old yeah and do you walk her do Sophie walk her yeah we walk her we walk her together or whenever you know whoever's around I guess she's got the because you live in the country you probably got more outdoor space haven't you as well so yeah so it's definitely it's definitely I mean I again I couldn't walk I couldn't walk I could you not no she just wouldn't enjoy it wouldn't be an enjoyable experience of her at all be like no this this is all wrong every single aspect of this is wrong there's cars people

Other dogs. You've got to be quite patient, though, haven't you, with a dog like? But that's good because that tells me that you're quite a patient-tolerant person. Do you know, I really, I think the way she is with our kids is so, it's so heartwarming to me. And she's so happy to be in our family. It really warms my heart so much. And I think the patience we have had to have with her has taught me a huge amount. Has it?

And I cannot imagine not having a dog now, really. I can't imagine not having this dog really, but it's been, I've loved it and I'd recommend it to people who have patience. Yeah. Yeah. With your parents, it was very creative. It was creative, but in the early days, and they wouldn't disagree with this, we were definitely encouraged to kind of seek out a proper, like a proper job. And it's great to be creative. It's brilliant. I mean, like, we would, we would, we got music, lessons and we were encouraged there were instruments in the house. We had a drum kit, we had a piano and my uncle would come over and we'd all kind of jam and stuff. But that was all our coffees were over there.

Oh, thank you. I'll go and grab them. I'm actually going to put a lid on mine. Yeah. I don't know what situation Daniel's going to be in if he sees a, you know, a wild urban fox or something. There we go. No, I'm all right here. There we go. So yeah, so you're, you're, you're But your dad was in his financial job, wasn't it? And your mom was a teacher, is that right? My mom worked in the school. My mom worked in a school, yeah. So I think they were encouraging in so many ways, but I think they were also kind of making their way in the way that they knew that they were kind of taught

and they were taught by parents who obviously felt quite, it was essential to them to be. He's frightened. He is, what's he frightened of? It'll be that. The groove in the, in the, in the, he's very frightened of markings on the road. Wow. Come on, right, wait, I have to do this.

It's all right, sweetheart. I'll go with you. He does look quite stressed. It's like he just crossed the Grand Canyon in one single leap. So yeah, you were saying, so your mom was a secretary, I didn't say the word secretary anymore, do they? But she worked at a school. She did, she worked, she did all manner of things at a school.

and obviously was raising us and all that kind of stuff. And they were, they are, I think I never really caught on to how much the background that they came from informed their lives and thus mine really. So I kind of, I barely realized that I was so culturally mixed when I was growing up, apart from the fact that people always used to say, have you been on a hot, like, have you got a town? you know, why have you got a town all the time? And I didn't really, I never say, well, because my mum's Burmese Indian, I didn't say that. I was like, I didn't really get it because when my, when they came over here, because my Indian grandfather was part of the British Army,

he was one of those types who would have expected to be very English over here and would have expected to arrive and be like, oh, welcome, this is your country. And of course, the opposite happened. And he was treated quite badly. really and they were when they first moved here. And for my dad, his mother was a Prussian Jew with a very heavy German accent who was separated from her family during World War II.

And she was frightened to speak German, frightened to have a German accent, and certainly too frightened to follow her religious background. So I think that kind of idea of all that kind of cultural kind of quarterization really kind of played a big part in their lives. It's only something I'm starting to put together now, which is...

That's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Come on Ray. There you go. Ray, founding through the long grass like an antelope. And it was you and your brother, Ben. Yeah. So you were living in, is it Wiltshire? Yeah. Yeah, so we were living, we were in Essex first. And then when my dad's job changed, we moved. My dad's job changed to somewhere in Swindon. So we went to a village near Swindon. So it was you and your brother, Ben. And he's, Ben's older. Ben's four years older. He's a musician and a producer, an amazing songwriter. How did you get on when you were kids? Always got on. Yeah, we really, we got on so well.

He was a great older brother in the sense that he really kind of, he allowed me to enjoy his pursuits without being, you know, like you always want to, younger kids always want to do what their older siblings are doing. But they can either be really annoyed by it and put him away. He was the total, obviously, he kind of always encouraged my interest in, in his interest. So when he was learning the guitar, he would show me things and he was learning how to record stuff. we'd record stuff together and he'd allow me to come along to his band practices to kind of watch and stuff. And it was never, you know, he's great and we're very close. And when did you get the sense, Jamie, when you were growing up? Or did people around you get the sense that, you know, often if you speak to comics, you have that,

oh, I remember people saying, oh, he's funny. Did you have a moment of, oh, Jamie's musical? Well, I mean, there must have been, yes. I feel like I've never properly answered this question either honestly or straightforward because I'm still trying to work it out. So, yeah, I did occasionally I was picked to sing a solo at a school concert. Occasionally I would like play at some festival or something, you know, as a young kid and we went to church every week with my mom and we occasionally, I don't know,

me and my brother would play something on the guitar or something. So there was that, but I can say for certain that nobody thought I was some child prodigy. And nobody was saying, oh my God, your chance to go on X, Y, Z. I was fine, and I was sweet, and I always looked about five years old, even when I was like 10. So there was that, but I wasn't like winning awards or like, you know, I failed my grade three and then kind of gave up. This is what grade three piano? Yeah, yeah. Did you?

I just wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't, I was more interested in kind of, I don't know, football and He-Man and stuff. Those are they, there's like brethren there, aren't they? That's a shih Tzu as well, isn't it? Ray's met a little white chitzu who's got that brilliant hair looks like one of White Snake or something. Yeah, exactly, yeah, like a 90s hair metal style. Yeah. Oh, isn't that sweet, Jamie?

They're getting on rather well. Does that, is that a familiar sight to you to see that? The owner's saying no, I think. Oh, I see. Okay. Ray, Ray, Ray. Ray? No, he's going to embarrass me.

He's more interested in his new girlfriend. Oh my god, he sat down when I called him. Oh my god, that's so rude, Jamie. Ray, come on please, come on, good boy. Good boy. You see normal everyone treats, be like, come on. So, for the benefit of the listeners, Emily just called her dog and a stranger's dog came instead.

It's quite a sight actually. I could see he was in charge here. Was there a time when you ever sung a song, like in front of the bathroom mirror or whatever, and thought, oh, that sounds good? No. Really? Absolutely not. No, no, definitely not.

And I've said this before, but it's so true. I was not, like, in front of the mirror with a hairbrush as a microphone. And I didn't, I wasn't, like, harboring, like, some inner desire that was being suppressed to be, like, on stage. I was, I played Oliver in the school play, and I resisted it. I resisted it for, I resisted it, and I hated the fact that I was doing it for ages. Why? Why? And it was fine, but I didn't want, I didn't want to do it.

And I think if I thought about what I was going to do, I thought I would write words. I thought I might be a journalist or I'd write books or I'd write, I don't know, films or something. That's probably what I thought I would do as a teenager. I think it's a bit like just because you go skateboarding as a kid, you don't necessarily think you're going to be like a pro skateboarder. It's like I played a bit of music and I liked it, but I wasn't necessarily like overly gifted. I lived in such a kind of provincial kind of area. I didn't, it seemed like such an outside kind of, you know,

that we only had the television then, didn't we? It was such an outside kind of concept. It didn't really kind of cross my mind until, I guess I started getting really obsessed with playing music and learning more about music and finding out about all these kind of sub-genres within sub-genres and becoming a real music nerd that I thought I might quite like to do something in music. But even then I thought,

might write about music. I didn't even think I would necessarily perform. It seemed like such a mystery and I wanted to know more about the mystery but it was not obvious to me that I needed that it would be my career. And I think that's the honest answer. Were you confident and popular at school, Jamie? Confident and popular. I think I went to quite a small school and I pretty much got on with everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether I was confident. I think I was was kind of in the middle, you know? I definitely, music definitely was a bit of a crutch, you know, as a teenager. It's like, well, you know, if all else fails, at least I can play the entire Nirvana

Nevermind album on the guitar, you know, to impress someone. So, yeah, it was, it was definitely a crutch and helped with quite, I think that's so often the case with kind of teenage musicians, so you kind of fall in love with the guitar and stuff, it becomes your thing. Yeah. And do you think also, I mean, you're like me, you're, I describe this as petite, Jamie. Yes. What effect do you think that has on you?

Do you think that means that you have a bigger personality in some way? Or do you think it has an effect at all? Yeah, I never really had to examine that until I became a known person. Because my entire family are all very short. So I arrived at school at four years old, and I was really, like, miniature. I used to kind of get picked up and kind of carried around by the senior school. I had to announce it in assembly that that wasn't allowed. I was loving it.

Yeah, exactly. What did they say in assembly? It's kind of, yeah, it's gone into kind of, it's gone into legend that story. Oh, how brilliant, Jamie. I think more than being not so tall, more, I think looking young for so long was a real, a kind of thing. I think when you're a teenager, not kind of looking as old as everyone. else is a bit of a nuisance. You know, if I kind of really think back, I'm like that,

that always felt like a real nuisance. But again, where I was growing up, it's not like I was in London or anything. And there were pubs that we all knew we could go to. And there was the club that we all knew that they'd let anyone in who turned up. So again, I had quite a close-knit group of, a small group of friends. And we'd all known each other for a long time. So it was, yes, it's interesting to think back to it. So you were quite, academic, weren't you? Reasonably, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think so.

I think I did, I was quite good at, I was quite good at being given a task to do and I could kind of get it done. If I think back to, if now I know like real academics and people who are really academic, I don't think I was like that, but. Were you naughty? No, God, no, no, I wasn't naughty.

I was naughty in secret, but like not, not kind of outwardly, no, I was pretty good at kind of getting on with it really towing the line. And at that point, you've decided, to go to university, haven't you? Mm. Did you apply, was there something about you? You were going to go to Oxford or something?

Yeah, that was something that was something that was discovered, I wrote a history piece for my history A level that included some of my grandmother's story, which was really interesting. I loved writing because I loved writing. And I was at a really great state school in Chippenham doing my A levels and they, took us up to Oxford and we did all the applications and the piece that they that I think can't

remember exactly what it was but I think that piece that my long essay or whatever got published in some local kind of journal or something and that was definitely kind of on the menu but it didn't feel it didn't feel right for me I didn't put my finger on it didn't I think probably your life would have gone in a very different direction wouldn't it if you'd have pursued that let's go around Maybe. I think looking back on it, I, possibly at that point, I knew I probably wanted to do something creative, but I wasn't able to articulate it. No, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you, probably the better word. I wasn't able to own it at that stage. Because it seemed a combination of, like, ridiculous and maybe like vain or I don't know. So, you ended up going to Reading. Yeah, I took a year out before then, and that's when I really started getting into playing. That's when I really started, you know, I started playing in part. and joining loads of bands and... And you taught yourself, you were saying about grade,

the music is interesting, because it's sort of maths music on some level, isn't it? I still find it difficult. Do you? I wish I'd studied it really, and I still kind of planned to at some stage. I'm still mostly in the dark about a lot of theoretical and kind of building block aspects of music, which really frustrates me. But I guess there's just a, there's a major curiosity to learn all that stuff. to learn all that stuff which I'm still really hopeful that I might get it under my

fingers one day. Acting like you're someone desperate. I really hope one day. Not at all. Not at all. I'll tell you what, it's not about, it's not about, I promise you there's no like kind of overly kind of humble brag thing about that. I really, I'm around people that are absolutely masters of what they do.

Right. And I, you know, on part of this Christmas album that I've made, I've got a guy into play piano and some of the things that I know I couldn't do as well. And I sit next to him while he plays, and I know how many hours he's put into doing that specific thing. I mean, I've probably done that, but more with songwriting and trying to write a combination of lyrics and music together. He's done that at the piano, improvising, playing, like,

a combination of Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson, but for, like, 10 hours a day, you know. And that is why he's that good. I know what it takes to be at that level. You often say, oh, I can't really read music, but obviously what that means is I can't cite read fluently, doesn't it? Essentially? No, I mean, I can do, if I'm looking at a stave of music, I'm every good boy deserves fun. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I can't read me. I can read chord symbols, which is like the kind of cheat sheet for learning tunes and stuff. And I've got a really good ear, but I've never really sat down and tried to try to get into that in a really detailed way, although I'm, I've started to actually. And it's really, it's just, it's just great to know. I think that's the thing that keeps certain musicians and artists, they live a long time because they're still kind of curious about it all. I'm definitely curious about it all. I, you know, for a lot of kids, music should feel like it's fun. I don't think many kids walk into a math lesson going,

this is going to be amazing, you know. I think they're kind of going to have to. Professor Brian Fox, he's the only one who really did that. Can you imagine if he was all our, I mean, kind of is these days, isn't he? He's amazing. And you got to have a music career as well. Yeah, I know. He deserves everything he gets.

He's literally like one of my major pinups. I love him. Oh, really, yeah. Talking of major pinups, who were your musical heroes when you were growing up then? Probably Kurt Cobain. You know, that album, Nirvana's Nevermind, came out at precisely the time when it was aimed at my, you know, I was 11, 12, 13 and it was just like, yeah, this is everything.

I would say that was probably the first kind of musician that I just, I needed to know everything about. him and I was kind of obsessed with all the Nirvana albums and stuff and then I think a lot of a lot of hip-hop that was kind of jazz influence so Tribe Corps Quest yeah the beat nuts all that kind of stuff because there was so much jazz in a Tribe Corps quest and they kept referencing I've heard names Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock and Donald Bird and Lou Donaldson all these people within the music they were constantly referencing them you know even Beastie Boys uses a lot of them A lot of jazz samples. And so by the time I was in my local library,

flicking through the vinyl, thinking about what I could get out because seas were so expensive, I would go, oh, Miles Davis, all right. Yeah, I know that name. And I looked at the cover. I saw this unbelievably cool looking guy

holding a trumpet, you know, these amazing dudes on the back of the vinyl thinking, yeah, I'm going to check this out. I put it on, it blown my mind. I didn't know what the hell was going on. It sounded like a racket, but it felt so creative and exciting. and I was so...

I wanted to understand it, but I knew no one who was into that music apart from me and my brother. And then I'll tell you what else, actually. I think I saw Harry Connick Jr. on, like, breakfast TV one morning before school. And he wasn't doing the big band Kroon thing. He was playing, like, this New Orleans-style

kind of blues jazz piano and singing on, like, TV AM or something like that. And I just... I never heard anyone. I never seen anyone play the piano like that. And I remember thinking that was amazing. Yeah. Oh, I wish he, I hope he knows that, Jamie.

He does. I've had the chance to interview him on my radio show, and I told him. What did he say? He was, I mean, he's a deeply, deeply lovely human being. I like him so much. Yeah. He's great. And so, yeah, that was really inspiring because there wasn't that kind of stuff on the TV.

And then there was a prom. Pretty full squirrel, Jamie. You see, my dog would have that. in its jaws in second. Daniel's quite interested in having a tack around at that. Jamie's like the sort of David Attenborough and he suddenly says, and the squirrel will not make it past another winter. My dog said it's jaws within seconds.

So you go to university and as you say before that you spent a year, I feel that your gap year, you know, everyone else was off. essentially either getting wasted or, you know, doing a sort of job just to earn money so they could go out, or towards their sort of education. But I feel that was sort of your year of prep, you know, for your musical career. You were laying the foundations, weren't you? Unwittingly, I was, yeah, because I had the usual, I worked in a petrol station behind the counter. Oh, I can see you there?

Yeah, can you see that? With a little polo shirt. Almost certainly had a polo shirt. But I would have had like bird song by Sebastian. I would have been reading that probably. Put on your back pocket. Would have had music that I would have had to keep very low that would have made people go out of the shop.

Yeah, it was insufferable probably. But yeah, I did that job. And I just started getting gigs playing in pubs. And that's when I realized that, you know, people were paying me to come in and do that. And there was no one really, certainly around where I was living, doing kind of who knew some of these old kind of jazz. songs you could sing and play and I started playing with all these I call them old men

because they were definitely a lot older than me but I started getting involved in this local jazz scene and I mean in and around Swindon basically and turning up at these pubs with these musicians who were so there was so much fun and it turned out to be the thing that actually made me that kind of Saturday job you know gap year kind of money to go and I went traveling for a bit and you know did the usual kind of gap year kind of nonsense that we all did I remember seeing a South Bank show on you. And it would have been, I guess, about 2003.

I know your stuff. I know your stuff, don't you? And it was brilliant, because I remember at the time, Melvin Bragg was saying, today, we future one of the most talented. And it was this, it was almost like he was apologising for the fact that you'd gone stratospheric, because we decided to follow this young jazz musician.

and then suddenly in the year that they were filming you, you became huge. But it's honestly, Jamie, I don't know if you've watched it in a while, but I went back and had a little look and it's the most adorable thing. Is it really? Yeah, there's you appearing on...

Nobody likes the word adorable, do they? Is that a good word? Well, you're appearing on... Because Michael Parkinson, you appeared on his show and that was... That was a big moment. for you, wasn't it, as well?

Yeah, I mean, it's so hard for me to kind of remember it all. I left uni and just basically decided I was going to try and play music for however long I could until I had to get a real job. My goals at that point were just to kind of pay my bills and have a really good time. And I had so many gigs at that point. I was playing in rock bands, pop bands, jazz, but I was just doing all sorts of things. And it was just, it kind of took up all my times. I thought, well, why don't I do that?

That's, you know, I may as well. And so during that time, all this other stuff happened, my demo CD got to a small record label, they signed me, and then I made another record for them. I met some really good, great London jazz musicians who really helped me out and helped me put together this other record that then got picked up by Universal. And I think that kind of crossover from the small label into Universal

was around the time South Bank show were filming me. There was the cutest moment. You were in the dressing room? Cute. again it's like adorable isn't it no one wants that yeah I'll take it though it's right do you know why I can say that because I'm in the petite gang but yeah you were in the dressing room at Parkinson in this South Bank show yeah and you were saying look at all these things that they've given me yeah and I'm not really like a pack of chew it's or something

it was a bit yeah exactly I know it's so true you were so sweet oh no I said sweet that you were saying I can't believe it look at this I got flowers, I've got a Joe Malone candle, I've got, and then you, they panned into the fruit bowl and you said, you went, grapes. Was I being ironic? Yeah, okay, that's good. I think you would be very knowing. It's very funny. But I did get the sense that you were genuinely, you're experiencing this extraordinary thing that you hadn't, I don't know, there was something really charming about it just that the joy that you were feeling but also if I'm honest I can imagine it must have been quite overwhelming because yes it happens so that part of it

was overworked so that the playing part I felt like I could cope with because I'd done I'd done my kind of 10,000 hours at that point I played so much I knew that when I was sitting down there even with 20 cameras on me I'd be able to do that bit to the best of my ability but I think I wasn't prepared for the other stuff and what what by the other stuff the celebrity side of it I suppose I don't think I I don't think that ever really became a major part of my life, but at the same time, I think just the idea of being on a big telly show like that. Yeah.

It was, you know, and the free Tuwits and the free grapes was just too much for me. I think I came into it quite guileless. Yeah. And I look, I see young artists now who are so kind of together, like with how they want to be perceived and how they're, what their brand is and how they kind of see their career panning out. I was just like thinking, oh shit, I've got a gig at the ship in next week. got to book a bass player for still while I was doing Parkinson because I had gigs kind of booked

when I had to call up all the pubs and cancel my gigs that I couldn't do because I've been signed by Universal I felt I was that was a that was a because I've been doing all that stuff for so so long it was quite a weird experience did you feel ever because again in the documentary that I'm obsessed by and I'm going to make you go back and watch it that'll never happen you have to literally you have to do that clockwork orange thing with that with the eyedrips and the yeah Even though it was 20 years ago, I haven't moved on from it, Jamie, because there was a man in it. And you went to some regional station. Yeah.

And he was one of those kind of quite old jazz buffs. Yeah. It was, I remember he was sort of saying to you, well, yeah, but this isn't jazz. I mean, there was a weird sort of element of suspicion almost, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That was a real, that was... Let's go here, Jamie. On the game was trying to...

That was my bizarre, extremely unique struggle at that stage. of whether what I was doing was kind of considered real kind of jazz. That was, that was a bizarre, it seems so comedy at the time, because I guess because I was mixing up such a kind of puff element and I was not like Uber trained and particularly technically kind of gifted. Really, I just remember feeling like I had to kind of legitimise myself a lot. And also I didn't know any other young people that were doing it. So there was no kind of, I mean the first person I remember meeting that really loved kind of jazz in the same way that I did was not until much later.

I do remember kind of feeling like I had to kind of fight my corner and then thinking, well maybe I'm not. And again, it wasn't important for me to be like real jazz. But at the same time, I really, I wanted to do that. And it was, I remember feeling that pressure quite strongly actually. And I think it's difficult, isn't it? Because you had this, it's what everyone would have dreamed of. what happened to you but I imagine it came I imagine it's it's sort of difficult isn't it because you want to enjoy it and it's the thing you always you would

dream of happening if you're a musician but when it happens to you I suppose it's a bit how like a wedding it's like oh this thing I've built up to I've built up to and then it's happening and it's going so quickly and it's just like going do know what I mean it's a it's a really good analogy that with a wedding actually because you do there is a point where you go oh this isn't what I thought it And also I think I've been asked so many times by young musicians like what you're like what do we need to know? And it's like I'd say make sure you're doing something you really like. Make sure you're making the music you want to make because once you're in it and you're in the system kind of doing it.

Yeah. I mean this was certainly true when I was coming up. It might be different now. I don't know. But if you are presenting a product that is it doesn't mean the world to you, this is going to be really hard. Because it needs to feel that way because you're going to get up. all kinds of questions. You're going to need to have authentic answers for them.

If you don't, you're going to go to bed and feel and cry every night, you know. Right on cue. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for that. We paid a lot of money to hire that child in the agency, Jamie. I love Raymond. Do you like Ray? Oh, I love him.

He's so sweet. Oh, I love that you love him. Do you think, what do you think you're, you've got two daughters, haven't you? Yeah. I love their names as well. They've got such brilliant names. Margo and Lyra, is it? What do you think they would make of Ray?

Oh my God, they'd be obsessed with him. I mean, what's not to love? He's like a beautiful... He's very... He's clearly very kind and calm as well, isn't it? You have no kind of worries about him kind of like launching himself at someone's neck or something. And he looks very unique as well.

They'd love him, I imagine very few people don't love him, surely. You know what I've noticed, Jamie, is that... Because he's so sweet, and I think what he does is he brings out a sense of your childlike sense. And I've noticed with men particularly, like let's say sort of older businessman or something, they look at him, I see a smile break out on their face, and then I see them stop themselves and say they feel uncomfortable with being, with feeling childlike.

So they'll go, what is it, some silly mop? And I think, no, go back to your original response, because that was the right one. I hope that's, I feel like there's a bit of a sea change with men in that regard. I think, I really, I do think. I think men are a lot better expressing their kind of vulnerability. and they're you know exactly what you're describing I think maybe that seems to be more like prevalent because got to be good for all of us I think do you think you've changed in that regard I know you said Sophie's changed you a bit like that totally I mean totally but I

think I think that happens ideally in a in a kind of committed relationship doesn't it because you kind of know where to kind of hide and actually I have I have she's very very good at expressing herself and her and the way she feels and I don't know I think there is a male female aspect to that I'm sure that many people could disagree with that as well but I certainly feel like I've become more emotionally literate but at the same time I noticed my kind of male friend contemporaries having a I think it's just it just seems to be something that's more it's more okay now you don't tell a a boy child to kind of man up these days you know it's like something you just don't say because it's not

it's not relevant anymore. I think that's great. If anyone who your dad is, I suspect Baron Trump gets told that. Yeah, look how good that's worked for everyone. You played, you went to the White House for Barack Obama. Was it Brach? Yeah, it was for International Jazz Day. I mean, that's one of those situations where I felt like I had been beamed in from another planet. You know, on stage with Herbie Hancock and Aretha Franklin and Al Juro. And it was, it was kind of indescribable. And I just had to, it's just a point where you just

to kind of breathe into your you know sense of who you are and what you do and go all right I can do this and I just remember before I was about to walk on stage and I could see Aretha Franklin sitting there Herbie Hancock sitting there Barack Obama and Michelle Obama just there and my wife was sitting just just two rows behind them as well and just thinking I'm so nervous right now I could literally just shake instead of having my hands on the keys and then I just took a moment to go this will never happen again in front of these people right here so just if you don't enjoy it, you're not making the most of something that is just...

So I managed to. I started playing with about four bars. I saw, I saw Aretha Franklin going, huh, kind of nodding, and like going, yeah, it sounds good. And I knew everything would be okay. And it was just, it was, it was an amazing atmosphere that day. It was a real celebration of music. And I think President Obama is someone who clearly has music, he feels music in the way I, I, I, I really noticed with other kind of real kind of music lovers. It's like something that's so much a part of his way of getting through life and enjoying life and making life an experience that feels rich is through music. And it was a pleasure for him to have a bunch of jazz musicians in the White House.

He was like, I don't think any other presidents can do, so I'm going to do it. And it was a celebration. Everyone was so kind and supportive. And it was a brilliant, best experience. Did you get to speak to them? They did. What was that like? It was so surreal.

I don't think I've ever been in the presence of that much power and charisma. And I know there are many people that would disagree with the politics that were floating around at that time. I think it was just, there was a real, there felt like a lot of authenticity in that room between, you know, some of the greatest musicians walking the planet. I'm not including myself in that. I'm including like literally those bona fide legends. Wayne Schorter and Herbie Hancock there is, there's no one on this planet that can deny what they brought to, brought to the world. like they've literally given huge cultural, musical change to the world. And the first black, African-American president of the United States

who just exudes confidence and power and in a way that feels, oh, it was, it was, it was inspiring. Yeah, yeah. I want to ask about how you met Sophie because it feels like two nice people found each other. There's just a good energy from you too. I don't know what that is. I'm really happy to hear that. I mean, you know, she's an amazing person with a huge amounts of depth that I think people in the public eye,

I don't think people would know how much she gives to the world. She's not someone who'll shout about things she does or she's not particularly demonstrative in that way. And she's just, she's amazing. So I think she's incredible. And, you know, because she was modelling. She's a hugely successful author as well. But at the time, you know, she's, it was in the peak of her sort of modelling career. And it was like Sophie Doll supermodel. And you met her at an event, didn't you?

Yeah, we met at, we met an event. I didn't have a huge knowledge of who she was because, I don't know, I was so, I was lost in a slightly different world. But I think the lovely thing about her is I only really ever knew her. from day one as, you know, obviously, incredibly beautiful, you know, impossible to kind of deny that. But she was a book, but she was, it was all about, you know, we met and we immediately started talking about books because I was, I was reading something, she was reading something and we both love books. And she, she had written her first book and she was writing.

She was finishing her novel at that time. And I was having really, probably secretly, always wanted to be like a kind of tortured novelist. I was like, oh, that was the thing I wanted to know. So, you know, she was modeling now. but you know she's she's a right she was always a writer always wanted to be a writer and uh while she did some amazing things as as a model it's she you know she's a she's a gifted and brilliant writer and so we we met that night on that kind of level and i just knew immediately that would be friends for sure i didn't entertain did you know well i mean you know also she she

had a boyfriend she was living in another country and and i was like god what a brilliant what a brilliant person and it wasn't until she came back to when she moved back to the UK and her life had changed quite a bit and she was you know focusing entirely on writing and we were kind of back in touch and we you know around that time things just got it's progressed like like it does really it's very exciting when the first one to break cover but it's risky because you have to you have to hope that they'll do they'll feel the same way yeah yeah no I know exactly you have to kind of it's like leaping for the for the other side of the the the the the canyon and not quite knowing how far away it is.

But yeah, luckily it worked out. Does it help as well that you understand, you're both navigated? And I suppose you'd mess at a time when that sort of white heat of, you know, fame in a sense that you're navigating it and you understand that, you know, that. Yeah, I mean, I think for her it was a lot more intense. But I would say it plays a very small part in our life. I guess the things that we really kind of value, I love it when people listen to my music and I understand that in order to

for people to listen you have to be out there in a certain way and obviously she would love people to read her books but I think the other the other stuff that comes with it is it's not it's not something that we as people and it's not to say that you shouldn't place value I know but there are arguments for it too but I think we've always been quite you know not really that kind of way inclined I think she was obviously kind of around quite a lot of that in in her youth so it's no mystery to her and for me I've always been a bit of a kind of music nerd and kind of kind of off in the corner talking to the DJ about records when I'm supposed to be at the

GQ Man of the Year awards you know kind of like having my photo taken I'm asking someone you know what year that record was recorded like my PR saying come over here and I remember you talking about the Golden Globes once and I loved it when you said you've been sent over there because you were working with Clint Eastwood why yeah yeah oh my god that was amazing yeah you um I love you saying I got idea of the pecking order of celebrity. Yes, definitely the Golden Globes you realise and again that that's it's very it's very humbling that and I remember just trying to get like a shirt the day of the Golden Globes and I think well what what can I what can I you know how to see and I was like I just want a new

shirt so I someone said well you call up like a like a fashion company and they'll send you something like okay so I call it Alexander McQueen I think in town I said I'm going to the Golden Globe tonight they're like they're like yeah I'm like can I get a shirt like yeah, coming in and try something on. I thought, does that mean I get it for free? So I went in there, I tried the show, I was like, this is great, I'll have it, okay, okay,

that'll be $700 for years. I'm like, oh, fuck. So I'm not going to get it for free, but, you know, and then you get kind of kicked to the curb as soon as Brad Pitt arrives. And quite frankly, that is how it should be, you know? That's how it should be. He's brilliant at doing that.

Like, that is not my area of expertise, you know. But not everyone would feel like that. And I suppose that's why, you know, it's what you were saying about having, I suppose I think it's about having an interior life. So it's an idea that I always think, with comics, for example, the ones that tend to be happier, are the ones that very much go on, see it as a job,

and think there's an element of distancing yourself from the performer's side of you. I get a taste of like the lack of, I think, when I'm playing, a festival or a gig or something, that's the point where I can feel that that sense of ego and all the things that could carry. could carry around with you all the time, it'd be easy to kind of just keep hold of all the time. And I'm not saying I haven't in the past. I mean, certainly in my 20s when I was running around

gig to gig and I'm, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't married and I, you know, it's a funny, it's a weird time. And I wasn't mature enough to really understand what was going on. But it's, I can totally see, I can totally see how it's happened. And I've, I've definitely been through periods while I was probably a bit of a dick, you know. It's just part, it's part of it. But I think, but what person hasn't been through that? Well, I mean, then I've sold you alive because that's definitely the case. And I think there's no point of not kind of owning up to that because I think you go through it whether you've had a level of fame or not.

And you know, and if you kind of have to go through it to come out any other side, you know. And it's actually quite helpful to isolate those times and things like that have happened, you know. The album that I'm most, I've got most fond of, and I think it is my favourite next to piano. which is out soon is taller which was your most recent album that was out earlier this year wasn't it it was last year last year sorry yeah I mean um what is this year is hard to remember I know losing track of time yeah and it's such a beautiful album Jamie and well you must know that oh no thank you I'm really proud I'm really proud of that album in a way that I feel differently to the other ones why it's all my songs and it's I think

I think there's, I just think there's more depth to it. And I think I was searching around for that and I think there are things on the other album that have, you know, a kind of murmur of that of that and they have, you know, youthful aspects that you can't kind of capture when you're in your 40s or whatever. But I feel as though it is, yeah, I'm just, I'm just, I'm proud of it in a number of different ways. I feel like you took a risk and I feel it's so paid off. Do you know what I mean in the sense that it feels there's the age of anxiety won an Ivor Novello award. And that's a really, that's a really beautiful song. And you mentioned Amy Winehouse in that. And I found that really touching listening to that.

Because you worked with her, didn't you? She supported you, didn't she? She did. So, in my very first, so I knew Amy just from being kind of a jobbing musician around London. and she had sung in the National Youth Jazz Orchestra. She, various friends of mine had been in her band were playing with her, and I knew her tour manager, and we hung out at the same pubs and parties and stuff, and we knew each other, and then we were both signed,

and we both ended up with the same publisher, Guy, Moot, EMI, and our albums kind of came out at a similar time, And she was my support actor on my very first tour. I mean, it was, I was playing really small venues. It was a kind of, it was a grand piano and kind of spit and sawdust rock venue kind of tour. Yeah. In a van, loads of fun. Amy opened up for me every night and I knew, I knew without any, I don't even say this with hindsight,

that it's like, there is no way you're going to be supporting me in about two years. I just, I, she was so sophisticated. Her lyrics were had, I used to slightly quake when she'd go on before me because I'd hear that voice and more importantly I'd hear her songwriter, how like, how she was able to access things that, that I felt were very honest in a way that I was not yet ready to talk about in songs. And she did it in a way that was humorous and was more like a kind of poetry to me. And I, I, we became friends around that point.

And yeah, we, we, around that time, we would, we would, we would, out like out of choice on the odd occasion not like we weren't kind of best friends we would definitely hang out and we you know listen to music together and have occasional kind of just hang in parks and stuff and I lost touch with her when she became really famous as a lot of those friends from her early days did but we would still occasionally bump into each other and yeah obviously what happened to her is it just a total tragedy to me it felt like a nice nod to her yeah well I mean I found all her old texts on my on my

an old phone and it was it was just I'd been thinking a lot about people that I've lost and I'm sure you know anyone has that now where dead people are on your phone and you can't delete their number and you can't delete the text conversations and I found some of our old conversations and nothing particularly interesting in them and stuff is like I'll meet you here oh no I can't make it stuff like that but it was her and yeah I just couldn't I couldn't delete them and it felt like there were so many reasons I couldn't delete them but one because it just felt this monument to a you know a brief and lovely friendship but also just it's so obvious how talented she was at the time when she was alive and now she's no longer here

and you know if her music comes on I can't really listen to it it's just it's too it's too sad to think of the times where as a friend you know you could have kind of reached out But again, she was moving in such different circles around that time that was not someone I was really hanging out with around that time. I love, there's a reference on one of your songs, is it, age of anxiety, I think you say, what will survive of us is love, which I associate with Philip Larkin.

Yeah. And it interested me that because I thought, well, I know you've got an English degree and I see you as someone who's passionate about reading and books. And I wonder, do you think having an English degree and just being a passionate reader and being passionate about books and culture in general, do you think that helps as a songwriter and as a musician? Yeah, I do, yeah, for sure.

I don't think it's essential, I think. But just to be aware of what is possible with words and music. I mean, if I think about the people, I think it's just the very best of what they do. Nick Cave or, you know, Tom Wait. or just the kind of the level of poetry they're bringing to their music is kind of something to aspire to and I think a lot of their music is shot through with the with the reading you can you can you can hear the depth that not only they have just because they're interesting people and they're good at looking within but also

they're they're they're interested in in the greats and I I love art when I can see all the levels of which other things have been involved so far on our walk I've just heard you just seem a very chilled Zen person Jamie. Right. I don't actually have to answer that really. I mean there are definitely times what I'm not. I can definitely not be, but I think generally I'm quite a calm person, yeah. When Jamie's angry.

Come on, Donnie, come on, come on. How does angry Jamie sound? So I'm on a friend or something. And I'm not, oh no, sorry, Jamie. I can't. No, I know. Jamie, I'm really sorry, mate. On the way here, I, um, I smashed your car when I was parking.

What, you think I'd kind of lose my shit and go, you're fucking idiot. I'm going to kill you. How does Jamie react? God, how would, I mean, I'd be disappointed. But it's like, unless you did it on purpose, I probably wouldn't be very angry. It's a tough, I don't know, it's a tough. question to answer. I think I again if we go back to my you know my my grandparents probably couldn't they couldn't make a fuss because you know they they arrived here and were put in a council

house and kind of were given what they need to kind of get on and their job was to kind of get on and just kind of make it work and I think to some degree like that's got a filter down right and it's like okay well you'd best just kind of get on with it really but that can definitely be detrimental And I think I'm much better. I think it's about being angry, but it's about willing to kind of let people down if it doesn't feel right. Or if it feels like something's being asked of you that isn't fair or isn't like, you know, authentic to who you are, all this kind of things. Do you cry? Sure. Yeah, I'm much better at it now as well.

But isn't that supposed to be a function of getting older and having kids and all that kind of stuff? When did you last cry? At the end of that film, Coco. seen that film? Do you know, I really want to see it, but is it nice, you know, good cry? It's good cry, but, yeah, I mean, you're made of stone if you don't cry at the end of that film. It's incredible, yeah, yeah, it's great. So movies and stuff tend to make you, do you?

Books, movies, yeah, all that kind of stuff. We should talk about the piano man, because that's how I'm so, I so love the album, and this is your new Christmas album. and I defy anyone. Honestly, I defy you to put this on and not be sort of dancing around the house and feel like you're going to put a Christmas jumper on and it just made me smile. Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that.

I think I've never written something an entire record where you have a very kind of obvious set of parameters. Okay, this is what you're going to write about. It's going to be these things. themes and this kind of instrumentation. And I love that kind of limiting myself to kind of open it up and writing in that really kind of classic style. But I tried to subvert it a little bit here and there as well. It's a bit of sad and it's in there. I would describe it as a knowing

Christmas album. Yeah, great. Good. Is that good? Yeah, I'm really happy with the way you describe it. You should have written the, you should have written the PR thing for it. You've done it, you've nailed it, knowing that's the word that's been missing from the press release. What sort of a dad are you, Jamie? I think you'd be a dream dad. Are you strict? God, I don't know. I think they've got to have some boundaries, haven't they?

But I like the idea of them having a bit more freedom within that. So I'm probably somewhere in between, I think. I hope so. I don't think I'm that strict, no. I can't imagine, unless it's Ray off. I can't imagine. Well, it's love and boundaries, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how I feel. But all I know is that we're all just kind of poking around in the dark trying to figure it out. And anyone who thinks they've got it licked is probably not right. Don't you think people are too certain about everything these days?

I'm 100% certain of that. I'm not a fan of rigidity. Yeah. We're thinking. Yeah. You know? What do they say? Certainity is the enemy of curiosity or something like that. probably butchered that but I think that's true tell you what your dog is a is an epic ball of wonder they love him and what's he doing now is he just is he just urinating on command brilliant well come here come on right he's interesting in the drain isn't he so you're gonna what are you doing today you've got some children in need at the back Jamie you're on the piano yeah I know so are you need to I'm so excited you're on the piano well I'm not really playing it

so that there's a children in need single that they've got like a million people singing on. Oh, here we go, we can't play. It's all coming out now. Imagine if that was the, that would have millie vanilli, the scandal. Exactly. I get a much better piano player to be my piano double if I had been miming. Yeah, so they're making the kind of video for this kind of, the charity single.

It's a cover of the Oasis song, which I'm not actually sure which bit I'm contributing on yet, so I'm about to find out. Oh, look, he's dragging his bum on the ground. Right? Actually, that's the most animated I've seen Ray all day. Ray all day. Oh no, no, no. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Come here please. Come here, please. Jamie, this is so embarrassing. I'm so sorry. Raymond, please come here. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. There was a lady having a yoga lesson and Raymond's sort of going over and licking her

armpits. Yeah, he looks like he's, he looks quite happy with his achievement, to be honest. Well, I hope you'll go back and see your lovely dog. I will. I'll tell her all about this. And have you enjoyed meeting Daniel the Spaniel? I love Daniel. He's so, he's so chill. He's so happy. And he's just a chill guy. I like him. I have a final question before you go up to the bandstand on the piano. No worries.

I always ask people this. What? It's a nice, nasty. Oh no, he's chasing after a little child. Come here, Raymond. What do you most hope people? people will say about you after you leave a room. So what do you hope I'll say today and what do you worry they'll say? Answer the mean one first.

What do you worry they'll say and what do you hope they'll say? Oh, crikey. That's a hard question, isn't it? All right. Do you always ask people this? Everyone. All right, okay. I think when someone is nice or agreeable, like it's some kind of act or it's something

that's kind of put on or kind of vanilla-ish. So I'd hate that to be, to be like, seem like inauthentic. I've genuinely enjoyed walking around the park with you and gorgeous sunshine with these lovely dogs. So there's that. And then the nice one would be, I guess I really, I love it when someone is curious and just interested in life and other people and stuff like that.

So I hope when you're being interviewed, you have to talk about yourself a lot. And actually I'd normally rather ask someone about themselves So I guess it was like, oh, that's, you know, he didn't talk about himself the whole time. I don't know if that's a proper answer. Is that an answer? I think it's the nicest answer I've ever had. I love that answer.

That's maybe not a good answer then. That guy's a wanker, isn't he? Yeah, that kind of stuff. Oh, sorry, I just sent wanker in front of a child. I've ruined that child's life. No. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.