Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jenny Eclair

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

This week on walking the dog Emily goes for a stroll with comic, writer and co- host of the Older and Wider podcast Jenny Eclair. Jenny is currently considering becoming a dog owner so Emily brought along her dog Raymond and Bruce a French Bulldog who was rescued from a puppy farm by the dogs trust. They talk about Jenny’s childhood growing up in an army family, becoming a female comic when it was a male dominated world and dealing with eye gunk in dogs.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Bruce's best thing is playing in the road. That's his best thing. What do you like best, Bruce? I like playing in the road. This week on Walking the Dog, I went to Camberwell in South London to go for a stroll with comedian, writer, podcast host and fabulous force of nature, Jenny Eclare. Jenny's thinking of getting a dog,

so I brought along my dog Raymond and beautiful Bruce, the French Bulldog, from the Dogs Trust, to give her a taste of life as a dog owner. Jenny, it won't surprise you to hear, is utterly hilarious. She's like human barocca. You just feel fizzing with energy after spending time with her. We talked about her childhood in an army family, becoming a female stand-up comic back when it was pretty much an entirely male profession,

and juggling motherhood with life on the road. Jenny's also an incredibly talented writer. I've just finished her book moving, which I absolutely loved. It's beautifully written, and it's a real page turner. And her new book, Inheritance, is out later this year, which I've already pre-ordered on Amazon. No, she didn't give me a freebie. Do also check out Jenny's fabulous podcast, Older and Wider, with Judith Holder. It's a total thing of joy.

I really hope you enjoy our chat. Please rate, review and subscribe on iTunes if you do. And for more info on the Dogs Trust, go to doggsrust.org. I'll stop rambling now. Here's Jenny. I'm going to put Ray's harness on. Right. Well, you've got Bruce.

I've got Bruce. Bruce is a... Lee's going to have time again. He's a French bulldog. Yeah, he's a French bulldog. But we think, and listen to me, I've gone really expert. I'm like going to those really annoying women that watch the World Cup and then really think they know about football.

I've met Ray... Sorry, I forgot his name. Bruce, 20 minutes ago and already I'm a bit of an expert on French bulldogs. Do you know all about them? Can you see this one's mixed? was something else very long back that's not an average length of a French bulldog that doesn't sound very technical Jenny it's got long very long it's got very long it's long back French bull but the great day maybe do you think I just sound so

gullible I was genuinely thought I think I think he's making it up as a lot that's me you can hear by the way he's from the dogs trust and they have very kindly lent leant Bruce today and Bruce is the he's as clean as a whistle I mean, because some of these dogs, you don't want to see their backsides, do you? But this, I trust Bruce, around the rear area. I've got a very good nose because I'm on HRT. My sense of smell is exceptional. And I knew as soon as this dog came in the house, he could go on the green sofa.

He's immaculate. Yeah. Oh, look, Bruce has gone mad and is jumping and barking at Ray. Is it because I've got the lead and he doesn't feel vulnerable? You know what? I think Bruce is just a bit like a premier. League footballer behaves on a first date. You know, they just don't understand the rules.

They go straight in there. Buy him a drink first, Bruce. Yeah, well, Bruce is full of testosterone and Ray is quite gay. Of course he's, he's my dog, Jenny. He's so camp. He's the campless male dog of ever see. Come on, Bruce. Right, got my phone, got my poo bags.

Oh, I've got my own poo bags. Lee, have you got poo bags? Thank you. Right. We're coming out of your beautiful house. now Jenny. Oh, I'm being dragged. You're being dragged by Bruce. Hold on. I've got the dog. I've got the dog. Don't you worry? Safe, safe. Okay, so here we go. Come on, Raymond. I've never done this. I've never walked down

outside my house, down this street with a dog on a lead. How does it feel, Jenny? It feels like I'm a completely different person. Does it? It's like I'm a dog person. And what does that mean to you? I might have to buy some crooks as well and go full dog. I might have to get tweed skirts and not cry when someone dies. Oh, no, I won't cry. Unless it's a Labrador. But then you see, knowing what I know about your background,

the army. Did Ray do a wee? Yes, he did a wee. Clever Ray. See, I've gone full dog. I think the dog's clever for weeing now. Clever, clever Ray. Is that what you say to Jeff, your husband?

Well done. No, because he goes 82 times. I was a night, obviously. I should introduce the podcast, but I feel everyone knows this woman. I'm with the very marvellous Jenny Eclare, who I adore, and comedian, writer, kick going. Podcast post. Yes.

All these things. Does that sort of sum it up, really? I think generally I call myself a writer and a performer. Yeah, yeah. Because that covers all bases. Yeah. But until now, never been a dog owner. I don't know.

I'm on the break. So we're in your manor. Yeah, we're very southeast London. Camberwell. Yeah. And it's really beautiful here. Well, bits of it very beautiful and bits of really shit. Are there?

But that's all London. You know, this is where... Yeah. I'm very proud to be a Camberwellian because, of course, it was Camberwell that kind of did for Boris a couple of weeks ago. Oh, yes. He moved into Camberwell where he never should have done. Well, he's...

His girlfriend lives here, does she? We used to live, literally. When we passed the house, Jenny. A drone sauce pan away. I could take it down there. It takes us 15 minutes to walk. It's a bit silly, just to go and go. And I think they fled.

Apparently they're living elsewhere now. So it's quite sort of gentrified now around here, isn't it? Bits and bobs of this are. Because there's all that beautiful Georgian architecture. But down the road, no, not for us. Did you a house win an award? Yes, we've got a Riba and a Manza medal. Because it's one of the smallest that's a small.

ever got a manse medal. Is that a modern architecture? Yeah, yeah. As is a rebutt. Oh, Bruce, no, that's down to your throat down. You're going to die. There we go. I didn't kill a dog on my first.

Do you know, it was wrapped down his throat. It's like an umbilical cord. You know, when babies are born, you've got to quickly get the cord away from the neck. It was like that. Yes, I said, do you like it? Did you see Lee from the Dogs Trust who's come with us today?

I don't. Lee doesn't trust us at on our own. No. I mean, they call themselves Dogs Trust. There's no trust at all. Well, do you know what? Don't suspicion. Bruce is quite forceful.

He's what I've called dragging me. I've never walked so fast in all my life. I might have to be sick. Honestly, this is the quickest I've ever gone. This is really running for me. I always do this with dogs. If Bruce, who we've introduced previously, but Bruce is from the dog's trust

and he's a French bulldog. And he's really, I think he's only about nine months. Oh, which... Don't you think he's doing, Jenny, for nine months-year-old? I think he's solid and big. I mean, I think, you know, if he was a baby, he'd be one of those bald, massive bald babies that kind of very thin women have to push in prams

because they've sucked the living God out of her. You know, he's sometimes... Ooh, nearly tricked me up. He's playful, because he's young. He's a young lad. He's very boy. Yes, he's got a sort of... If he was an actor, I think he'd be Bruce Willis and Die Hard.

Oh, yes. Or he'd be... Oh, Min Diesel, maybe. Something like that. I don't know the names of actors, because I don't really watch films, but he'd be one of those modern working class actors. Oh, Bruce, no, he's running into the road. Well, I've got him. Don't you worry.

You know, he'd be... No, I'll tell you who he is. Yes, he is. Or he could be won the Mitchell Brothers, if we're not careful. That goodness Lee is looking after him. I'll tell you who he is. He's Joe Pesians. She and Goodfellows.

Oh, now that's class. Yeah. That's a great film. In fact, that's the only film I really, really like. Oh, I pick the right one. Yeah.

No, Bruce, Bruce, really too close. Too close to the road. This side of mummy, this side. Come on, like a good... Why, do that? Determine to run out in the road. Foolish child. I find it very touching, Jenny, that you're already mummy.

Well, Bruce, you can't do that really, seriously. We'll go into the park. Come on. Bruce, we'll go into the park. He's a shame to be seen with Ray because he thinks Ray's a bit camp. He thinks everyone's going to think that I'm that kind of doggy.

I hang out with the camp dogs. It's like they were friends years ago and they grew up together. They went to the same school, they went to the same primary. They went to the same primary and now he's got him with the hard lot. Yeah.

And now he's giving Ray the Danny Zucco treatment. He's got the T-Birds jacket. Yeah, you're too soft for me. And he can say, He knows that Ray's been conditioning his hair. Yeah. He just said, oh, Ray. You asked me specifically, when you said you were going to do this podcast,

I said, would you like to take Ray? And you said, well, I'd like to take Ray, but I'd also like to try another dog. Yeah. Which you're possibly regretting now. It's hard work, this one. You've got the easy dog. You've got the biddible easy, puffy dog.

It keeps stopping to smell a leaf. But this one's bounding. This one I can feel. The sort of energy. It's the bulldog in him. Yeah, it's the bull. Well, he's only nine months, Jenny. But he was, Lee, from the dog strass

was telling us that he'd... He's as strong as an ox. He'd come... He was a rescue puppy from... What was the story, Lee? He came... He was illegally imported into the UK. He was bred in Bulgaria.

He's Bulgarian. He's Bulgarian. That's why he doesn't understand a worse. I'm saying. He's got the most dramatic... eyes. I mean, he would make a fortune. He looks so quickly.

He looks so quickly. He's, honestly, I'm exhausted. I expected you to have dogs growing up because you grew up in an army family. Yes, the army abroad. So you were travelling around, right? Yeah, a bit. So, you know, and I think my mum used this as an excuse never to have, you know, another and also she's a bit disabled.

But then... Yes, because she had polio, didn't she? Yes, she was a child. Well, she was 22. Oh. So she's been in a full-length caliper ever since. Well, actually, there was a time where it was only half a caliper, now it's the full again. So when she was in her late 40s, where my brother was small, because he was the most loved, they bought him a dog, you know, because he was like this golden child.

Yeah, my sister was a golden child. Yeah, he was late. That's why we're noisy, Jenny. Me, my, so attention for me. That's what it is, because we were stuck in economy and they were up in business class. I don't, I think that that was your paranoia. rather than the reality. Do you?

Yeah, I do actually. I just think that whoever your sister was, that would have been your impression. Do you think that's true in you as well? Yeah, a slight sort of tendency to feel hard done by. Definitely. And if some people aren't singing my praises sort of 24 hours a day and telling me how marvellous I am, I feel slightly slighted.

So that's the needy artist. Yes. Jean or I don't know whether it's a gene or? I think it might be jean, but nobody else has got it as badly in the family. Right. Mine has manifested itself quite badly. Yes. Well, because you've made a huge success of your career.

I've made a job out of it. Look at this, Jenny. You see Ray, sniffing nature. The only thing Bruce has sniffed is an empty McDonald's carton. And a can of special room. Yeah. I think he's a drinker. He's a South Londoner.

Ray's doing a wee look. Yeah, but Ray is quite, he doesn't know quite where he is. I was doing poo now, Jenny. Oh my God. Could you go near the tree? Look how elegant he is. But there's a lot of hair around that backside. Yeah, but don't you think it's...

The man from the dogs trust Lee is actually laughing. Because he has the curtain of hair. I know. There's very little shame when he's shitting. I've got these environmentally friendly bags because I went on a walk with Ed Miliband and I thought he'd might... He's quite strong.

about climate change and I thought he disapproved. You go throw that in a tree now. When in South London. So you actually, I know you moved to, your dad was he a major? Yes. Yes, but not very majorly. Was he poached then? He developed, he was from Blackpool originally.

Oh, right. But he, you know, there was show business on that side of the family and he developed a very fruity voice as he went up the ranks in the army. And so in the end, yes, he did, he talked like that. He had a fabulous speaking voice and was quite posh, yes. Whereas his brother, me uncle Stanley, he used to have a cigarette on toilets. I love Stanley.

Yeah, Stanley was great, well, and then there was Tom, who didn't really see much of, because he went to New Zealand. And your mum was... Another Blackpool girl. Yeah. An odd background, really, because her mother was a mill girl. Yeah. Oh, not in the road.

Bruce's best thing is playing in the road. That's his best thing. What do you like best, Bruce? I like playing in the road. So, yeah, so to your mum you were saying. Yes, her mother was a mill girl. Yeah. Who went to work in the mill when she was about 10 or something.

And from the age of 14, she was said, after that, I could never hear a bird sing. She went there, the mills. They were so loud. Really? So, and she married Tommy, who was an orphan, and he was quite exotic looking. He didn't look English at all. He looked Egyptian, but actually wasn't.

And he used to do acrobatics on Blackpool Beach and then was taken up by the bloke who ran Blackpool Beach Amusement's thing and became, eventually became one of Blackpool's biggest solicitors. and it was very self-made. Yeah, there's a lot of that in your family, though. Because you grew up, because it was a sort of, I'm fascinated by army families, because... They're sort of nothing.

What do you mean? Well, if you're middle class, but army, it's slightly different from middle class southern, and middle class southern is slightly different from middle class northern. Because this was in, where you were based originally, and where you were, were you born in Kuala Lumpur? Yes, yes.

Army tends to be. have a slight bit of bohemia about it. There's a lot of gin drinking. Yes. And then you go back and settle in the north-west of England, which is very straight. Which is what you did. Which is what we did.

So by the time, I mean, I went to secondary school in England. You know, I was there for 10 years. And whereabouts? Livet and Tans, which is sort of one of those rather attractive, but very slightly dull, and I'm very sorry to say that out loud. because a lot of people would find that really offensive but it's not for me

I mean it's got windmill by the way I just see it says Ruskin Park Community Garden so is this called Ruskin Park we're in Ruskin Park is that after the scholar John Ruskin yeah who apparently well he's only ever associated with one thing now pubic hair which is the fact he didn't understand that women had pubic hair

and gasping with horror on his wedding night because he'd only ever seen women in classical paintings in nude statues which they didn't have hairy muffs. So when his wife dropped her nighty, look there's a dog. Let's see what's this dog. Bruce does. Hello. What's your dog?

Is that a cockapoo? That's a cockapoo. Yes. Pure breed cockapoo, very nice dog. I'm just borrowing this one from a doggy foundation to see if I'm suited to having a dog. It's very sweet. Well, yes, he's sweet, but he's a bit strong for me. Yeah, they've got super muscle.

His upper body strength. Yeah. When they try and lick your face, they really... He hasn't done that yet. No, he's a short-legged one. He can't get that high up. What do you, what would you say about cockapoo's if you were going to recommend dogs to Jenny? Middle-Aids women, lazy, lazy, middle-aged women who barely want to walk?

The laziness might be an issue. They do have quite a lot of energy. Could I have an old and broken one? Yeah, I get an unbroken one, I guess. When you're bored of yours? Well, yeah, I mean, he's going to get real lame in like a year or so. I'll have it then. Okay, I'll take over.

What I want the old transaction? I don't want him with bad breath, though. Will you make sure? Oh, no, yeah, it's fine, it's cool. He's got a little minty chews in his life. Good, good. Okay, thank you. Bye.

What's his name, by the way? Oh, how lovely. Nice dog, nice dog. Hobbs. Older and more mature than this. Hobbs was a nice dog. Do you think he's been sponsored by the? fashion store Hobbs.

Yeah, and she was very classy as well. Well, maybe you could sponsor it because you go Hobbs, people say, oh, I must get that jacket, I saw. It's a bit girls at wedding, isn't it, Hobbs? It's a bit, I've no real call for Hobbs dresses. It's a bit the sort of girl that would say to you, are you not engaged yet? Yeah, she goes to 30 weddings a year, the Hobbs girl. And sends over really manic emails beforehand about the hen night.

Yeah, because they're going somewhere abroad and she can't find a passport. I know where her passport is. It's always, if you can't find a passport, it's always in your photocopier. That's the first place to look. Who has a photocopier? Do you know what I mean? I mean, a printer.

You know when you're printing it out for legal reasons? Oh, I see, yeah. That's where you should always look first. Oh, first place. So you were talking about the Army childhood and you had a brother and a sister. Yes, they're still around. My brother's just lost his dog.

Oh, no. She's absolutely devastated. I mean, you know, it takes a lot to make Ben cry because he's quite hard. But, God, I've got to remember the dog's name now. Bert, Bert was a blue whippet. Oh, no. Did he run away?

No, no, he was very old. Oh, I see. He just died. Yeah, no, had to be put down. And, you know, devastated, my brother. It is horrible. It's really hard. He doesn't know how to go for a walk anymore, he says.

No, I don't even want to think about that day, Jenny. The pointlessness of the dogless. walk. I know. So he's in that stage at the moment. Dogs must be kept on a short lead in this area. Oh, well, there we're listening to that. There's a band stand here. Well, you know what? I'll do in a minute, Jenny. We can swap dogs. Would you like to have a go with Ray? Because you need a to be quite honest. My wrist is coming off. Lee, you're a younger man than me. I'll take Bruce. I would not let any of these dogs to it. To an older person. You know what's going to happen now, Jenny? Bruce will be so obedient. Bruce, Bruce, this way please. This way, please. This

way good boy you feel the it's not feeling nothing Ray's got no muscle tone how dare you but you know Bruce has got a lot of upper body strength Bruce stay Bruce training him for you I'm training Bruce yeah yeah I'm not gonna bother doing anything with Ray look he's just doodling and dawdling he's like having a sort of um it's like having a bit of candy floss yeah there's I can't feel him at all I in fact I keep looking around thinking he slipped his leaves Wean candy floss. Yeah.

It's the perfect dog. Bruce. No. This side. We don't sit down quite soon, aren't we? Bruce. Don't we sit down soon? Yes.

Oh yeah, yeah. Sit on a bench soon. Let's sit on a bench. Lovely. Oh, we should have got a coffee, Jenny. I don't know. I've did really badly. We've got some water.

When we go past the train station on the way back, we can stop. So, yeah, so both your, both your, but your brother and sister both became barristers. My sister had a dog as well. Oh, did she? Yes, Charlie. He was a very tense dog. But my sister's a very tense woman. Is she?

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, dogs pick up. But you always, I'm sort of getting the sense that, you know, still it was an Army family and it would have been quite traditional in some ways? No, not really. Was it not? No, I don't think it was. I don't think there wasn't that sort of small-minded disapproval that goes with a lot of what people expect.

Gossip. I think just the cliche of Army men. majors and yeah my mother didn't work was she you know she was a professional army wife and mother and you know the woman that was made disabled at 22 and was told she'd never have children she did incredible you know she is incredible she's still alive she's 90 wow and she's hilarious did you always stand out as when you show up as you know well my sister was head girl so I mean she had a sort of name for herself but it was in a rather clever achieving

See, this is easy, isn't it? With a dog like this. He weighs nothing. I know. It's almost as if he doesn't really exist. I mean, it could be a fantasy dog. But I'm not sure whether we should do that because of Bruce. I'm not running.

He won't run far. And Bruce will go into a frenzy of jealousy. You imagine? He'd be straining. Can you feel his upper body strength, though? I know. I mean, it's incredible. He's such.

This is the problem with dating younger men, you see. I'm so glad that my partner's 70. I mean, this is a bit like taking Jeff on a walk. I keep having to stop and wait, and he keeps needing a wee behind a tree. Come on, Bruce. Come on, come on. So, Jenny, were you very much the look at me?

Yes, there was elements of that, class clowning. Yes. Choing off. Sometimes very clumsily. Really? Yes, you know, you only learn those skills when you're older, really. I should go back to school now and be the class clowning. because I'd be brilliant.

When did you realise that you were funny and you could make people laugh and it was a currency? When I was four. What was there a specific incident? I was, my parents were having a drinks party. That was very army. We were in Berlin.

And I came down wearing one of my father's army berets. I think I did some marching. And everyone, it might as you, they'd have been pissed out of their heads. Yeah. But they were really laughing. I just thought this is incredible, this is great. Yeah.

There's definitely a combination of taking an audience by surprise, a silly walk and a hat. And I thought, I've got this. But it's interesting because when you learn that, I suppose, what also happens is it then do you think you become slightly dependent on approval? Laughs. Yes, I'm very laugh crazy. I did a live podcast recently with my friend Judith that I do the older and wider podcast with. When we were just in conversation mode and not being particularly funny, I felt quite panicky

because I was on stage not in full mode. Yes. So that was quite interesting. It was good for me. Do you think so? Sort of, yes. But it was quite difficult to get over the fact that because my stand-up has always been, I'm as much a writer, I'm a very rightly stand-up, and I've always enjoyed having a fantastic script to rely on.

In that you structure your comedy a lot rather than wing it a bit when you get the stage. No, don't wing it at all. You know, that's a myth about most comedy. Most comedy is finely honed, crafted. People sit down for months on end. Writing a joke, it's fine being funny off the top of your head now and again, but no one can rely on that, particularly if you're feeling a bit, when I was younger, you know, premenstrual and mad. Yeah.

I wouldn't have liked to have relied on the top of my head. Well, don't you think as well it's that thing of it takes a lot of discipline to look that chaotic and spontaneous? You know, it's like the terrible piano player. It takes, you know, 20 years to learn to play badly. Or Picasso or whatever. Yeah. Although I think he might have been cancelled by millennials, Picasso. Because he's problematic.

hasn't he because of his terrible track record with women I've no idea where we are we're lost in the woods now I quite like it though This is really that's that some toilets no wonder Bruce is sniffing around some Bruce happy now he's near the toilets He's found the coaging site so yeah anyway that's that's that's oh yeah the shit bag The shit bags rustling is I still pooing it when I said the ship bags rustling I wasn't talking about you Jenny So you had you knew you were sort of funny and did that mean at school were you academic did you I could have been more academic than I was so yeah lazy because I was very much um I was fighting against my sister's reputation I was sort of slightly bored of the fact that she'd done well let's let's go to that

pigeon shit encrusted bench that's nice and have a nice because I we'll have a nice sit down much much easier walking race so much easier I know but I think that you know if I wanted to tone up Ray would be no good for me at all. Look how slowly he walks. Honestly, he's like walking a pensioner. It's like walking a very thin, frail and hairy pensioner. He will go off the lead. I want you to see him running about so he can see the fun side of him.

He is fun. I love Ray. Oh, Bruce! Why would you do that? He ran at me, he ran at my legs. Bruce? No. No. No. I like the dignified way that Ray just sneered at that attack. He was very dignified, wasn't he? He's so dignified. Bruce, you let yourself down. Come on, Bruce. Look at Ray. He's naughty, isn't he? He's like a naughty. I said you how Ray reacted.

It was a bit like when, you know, when you get the, what are they called? You all know, you're an army person. Yeah. The ones with the big bear skin hats outside the Buckingham Palace. Yeah, the guards. The guards. Yes. It's how they look when school children try and promote them. Yeah, yeah. try and make them like poke them bit yeah there is a slap missing in this bit you see that little noise you know i just sat in it you nearly fell between the two slats that are left on this south london bench there is a triple slatter we can go on that one jenny that's got more pigeon sheds i don't mind the two slats see how you feel like that i've got a massive ass so i'll be fine well me too so you go on brusely oh okay look at lees bought um

In his rucksack, he's got a metal dog bowl. Would I be expected to have one of those? Can you say it's expected? There's not someone coming up and checking on you, issuing fines. I don't know. I think in some parts, they might just go, excuse me, I'm not sure that your dog responsible, and I'd like to check the contents of your rucksack.

You know, that was always my problem with getting a dog, was that I genuinely have this sense that that's what adults did. I never felt like a proper adult. No, I haven't entirely grown up. Do you think you haven't? No, you see, Bruce is supping water from his master's bowl now. Ray's looking at the dog bowl as if to say, I don't want your secondhand dribbly water.

Bruce has now trashed the dog bowl. And then he's going out to Ray's this because I've had water. Put a little bit in. You have to, Bruce will take it all. So go on, yeah. So your sister was academic. Yes, yes, still is, very bright. Yeah, because she's a barrister as well.

She's an adjudicator now. I think she's like a judge. Yeah. But in sort of small cases, they're not like, she's not high courting it. She was married to a high court judge. So she has a title. She's actually officially Lady Hart. Wow.

Yeah. So are you seen as the sort of outlier in your family? No, do you know what? I think Ben could have ended up in prison quite easily, but then he went... No, I say that because it makes me laugh the idea of a barrister being in prison. But I think that Ben is a maverick. Ben is sort of, I think that he has a lot of charisma,

and I think that he could have gone to the performance side. I think he could have easily strayed over the line, whereas my sister can't even have a photograph taken without much. I don't like me, me, me, me. You know, she's like that. Yeah. Well, Ben is flamboyant, has a streak of flamboyance than him. We're very similar actually.

He's antisocial as well. I'm sort of an odd mix of very, people think I'm much more sociable than I am. I don't really like going out. I don't like parties. Do you not? No, I can't think of anything worse. No, I don't know if I ever like parties. I like to speak to friends that I know, but I don't like being plunged into new environments.

But then I think, Jenny, that's because there's a level of expectation. probably especially on you where old Jenny Eclare's here yeah she's going to bring the party with her I can do an hour and a half and then I want to go home thank you yeah because I have I've done what you exactly what you've just said I've shone yeah an hour and a half I haven't even given myself an interval and and that's about as long as I do on stage about up to with an interval two hours and that's really enough and did you when you first realise that you were gonna you You know, you got the sense that, as you say, when you were young,

that you had that kind of slightly show off. I wanted to go to drama school. But you wanted to be an actor. I guess because you didn't know you could be a comic, maybe. I think there's a couple trying to have sex on the park. Look, they're wrapping their legs around it. How appalling. We might have to face the other way.

I mean, it's a literal get a room. It really is. Although I've just realised, I raised my glasses to have a look. We're staring at them. Let's try and put them off. Yeah. Oh! Oh, no, that was awful.

Right slip through the bench. That's awful. It's okay, maybe. That wouldn't happen to Bruce because it's too fat. Look, people looking at me as if to say, look at that woman with her dog. You must get recognised quite a lot, though. Not by young people. No, I think you do.

You did the jungle. Yeah, but that's 10 years ago nearly. Oh, look, he's going to fall down. He's falling through the gap. Can't bear it. This is a killer bench. We've got to go sit on the three. Yeah, this is a really dangerous bench.

So you wanted to be an actor? Yes, yes. Were you a good actor? No. No. Really not. I mean I knew I thought I would be when I went to drama school I did get into drama school I didn't get into any of the big ones. I didn't get into the lambda Let's go to that bench. This is a bit like the three bears, isn't it?

And the first bench had a great big hole in it and then the second bench was too noisy Come on Bruce. So you so you weren't a good actor, which I don't believe but well no I couldn't convince myself and I think if you can't convince yourself you can't really convince an audience can you because if you're standing there on stage going well look at me dressed up like a not out loud in your head going look at me dressed up like a Victorian lady oh do you think in a way that's because comedians I suppose always have to telling the truth a bit yes in the way that look there's a filthy old tea bag here on the floor let's see

Bruce I don't mind Bruce will go for it Bruce will go for so you became You're sort of a punk poet, really. I left drama school because I was anorexic and not very mentally well. And they wouldn't really have me back to finish the year. Did that happen when you were a teenager then? No, I was, well, yes, I was late to it though. I became anorexic when I was 19 and really only got over it when I was about 27. And now, you know, you tell people you're anorexic and they give you a look as if, say,

I didn't know you could recover that well. You know, just think, yes, I really grew out of it. out of it. It literally grew out of it. Grow out of everything. It's not a pair of jeans I can get to in the world. And are you quite, it's interesting though, because I suppose some people... I was very sexy with it. It was very beautiful with it. Did it just, and did it sort of, was it a gradual thing that it... Yes, it was. It was a diet that I didn't know how to stop.

Yeah. And my mother was in hospital. You know, I don't think I ever asked her what she was having done. I think she was having a kidney removed. She's very stoic. It's one of those things, you know, and go, yeah, you had a kidney removed, didn't it? Oh, yes. And so she wasn't around an entire summer holiday to sort of go, no, you're not eating, actually. And I was looking out to my father and my brother.

My sister was, I think, possibly already married. And I was making them things like spaghetti bolognese, but I was having a dribble of the bolognese on top of chopped cabbage. And they just didn't notice because they were, you know, men. brother was still quite young and and I just sort of was really good at not eating mind you're smoking my head off those in the days when everybody smoked and I never stopped drinking so it was a big sort of jowly puffy a semi-alcoholic with tiny brain so then that became quite boring and it was but when I came

to London so I left drama school became a punk poet in Man Then I was going to be a pop star in Manchester, but they didn't check that I could sing and I really can't sing. So I kind of ran away out of embarrassment. To London, yes. And I had an old school friend who'd been to Camberwell Art College. And I stayed with her for a while in Brixton. She had a council flat in Brixton. And I was doing some life modelling at Camberwell Art School to get money.

Well, like nude modelling. Yeah. I'd done it in Manchester. I was very good at it. just sit there doing nothing marvelous and there was a notice on the board for a bed sit so i got this bed sit in camboil i was very very very unhappy so unhappy it was unbearable yeah it was unbearable just lonely desperately lonely why didn't you go home though do you think you were trying to prove something oh definitely proving a point also i still had an eating disorder so i could have

i could manage my eating disorder in private without my you know parents getting all upset. Did they speak to you about it, your parents? Did they say, Jenny, we're worried about you. Yeah, it was constant, you know, and I'd just lie to them. It was desperately wanted to believe that I was getting better. So, you know, they did in some respects. And then I started working in a wine bar in Camberwell.

I met this black girl called Ruth, who was married to a pop star, and it's called Joe Jackson. Oh, no, Joe Jackson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's helping out. I know who he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was touring the States.

So she said, well, we've got this spare room in a flat in Camberwell Grove, which will walk back up Camberwell Grove because it's nice. And she said, come and live with me. So I did. And Ruth was fabulous, but quite erratic. Because she was trying to make a name for herself as a singer too. It was just hard. She was so beautiful.

Yeah, she was really. beautiful but their marriage was floundering anyway Joe came back I had to leave the flat and I basically I lived on a shelf for a while I literally had this bedroom that was too small for a bed and I had sort of like bounce on the windowsill when it was the other way was to stand a mattress upright and just lean it back a bit so you could sort of sleep standing up but like a bat yeah It was awful. We had a bat flat.

Yeah, and then I got... But did you not... Because I presume if your father was doing all right, you came from a relatively affluent family, did you not say, I need money? Would that not occur to you? No, wouldn't, because... Well, I...

We just, nobody did do that. And I also thought I was doing all right. I knew that it wouldn't last long. Sleeping up right? Well, yeah, I knew that couldn't last long. That was a number of weeks. And then I got... There were some other girls in the wine...

I was another girl and she was very clever. This is a terrible thing to admit. I won't give a surname, but her name was Claire and she was a model. And one day she went to South of Council. She put a load of grey eye shadow on her face and pretend her boyfriend had beaten her up and got a council flat. So I moved into this council flat with Claire and this other girl who was a model.

But they were kind of... That can't have been great for your eating issues. Well, they were, they were, Claire was really, really tall and she just could eat anything. And the other one, I can't remember her name, she was American. She was black American girl, Denise. And she was as hard as nails. I was terrified of her. And she had terrible skin, but a great cat walk walk.

And I mean, she was mesmeric to watch, even walking, you know, across the sitting room. She'd just, you'd just go, fucking hell, look at that walk. Yeah. But she was quite dirty and she put cigarettes out in the yolks of fried eggs. And when you've got an eating disorder, that's difficult. Well, that's also, when you've got an eating disorder, I believe that's called food spoiling. Yeah, I definitely wasn't going to eat it after that. No, it is just called food.

Yeah, I used to put washing up liquid so I wouldn't have seconds. You know, you'd have to get rid of it. You always have to get rid of the food. so anyway by then I'd met Jeff and I basically I just worked on him till he let me move in he was so because he'd been married and it had been broken up and he's 12 years old than me so 11 years old than me yeah I've pushed it up to 12

but it's actually 11 and he had this very nice flat did he and I saw that and I thought well you know he was an He was an art director at the TV Times and he was about 34. And he had a Porsche and he had a two-bedroom flat in Camwell Grove. He sounds like the hero in a rancourt. Yeah, he was. Apart from the fact, he was quite bitter and mad and difficult.

And, you know, had come after this unhappy marriage. I'm interested in this because I think of you as someone who's not frightened of taking up space. And I think in a way, and we're going to get onto your comedy, I want to talk about, obviously, but, you know, I think you were, I see you as someone who was sort of carving out a path through the undergrowth with a machete. It's how I describe those women. Do you know what I mean? Oh, very much so. I'm still of a generation where I can remember a man saying at a dinner party, and everyone nodding and agreeing.

I think I'm not told you this, men never marry loud women. And my reaction was, oh, I better be quiet then. I'm too loud. Hush, now. Do you know what I mean? But I would look at you and think, oh, but she's, she's, she's, she's, loud and funny and people like her. Yeah, but I don't do it 24 hours a day.

I don't go home to Jeff and start saying him knock-knock jokes. Well, I've just seen you at home. But do you know what I'm saying is? Jeff's always been my port in the storm. Jeff's always, Jeff never came to see the gigs. Jeff wasn't really aware of what I did. Because he went, came once and I died on my ass and basically said he was a jinx and he must never ever enter.

Was this early doors then when you were starting out? Very, very early. He's still never seen me as a solo stand-up. Yeah, he's seen everything else and he's read all the books and all that kind of thing. When you first did those early gigs though I mean I always think there's something that separates comics from humans essentially

which is... It's a hide, you have a hide, you grow a hide. Well, the fact that you'll get on again and do that. Most people would, that would be the worst thing that ever happened to them and they would just be like the ancient mariner going around telling their tale of the night they will never recover from. Whereas you think, I'll do that again.

Well, I'll just have to... I'll spend a couple of hours recovering You know, I'll die of shame for a few minutes and then I'll resurrect myself. Yeah, I think that sort of everybody was dying on stage as well. It was such a gladiatorial arena that even brilliant people had crap nights. And there were sort of apocryful stories of, you know, even so-and-so getting booed off down the comedy store or jonglers or whatever. So it would just, there would be an ugly mood in an audience. Audiences didn't know how to behave in those days.

I think they're much better now. I think there's also so much choice in comedy that the assholes don't have to go and see, you know, the people that really bore them. There's kind of places for that kind of comedy. You know, if you want it a bit stag and hen and all that sort of thing, there are places that specialise in that sort of thing. If you want something a bit mad,

and cerebral then there are clubs that do that you know you'd have to be a fool to stumble into the wrong comedy joint now oh that's my phone oh is that you yeah yeah I wonder what I was giving the producer slight evil as if to say it's very unprofessional it's very unprofessional who it is might be jet oh it's oh you can get it no I won't well hold on oh no I've missed it I'll get back to her I like that your ring trone was exactly what I would have expected Jenny it's end of the pier isn't yeah I love it so that's my daughter I'm But you see every time when I see, because it's usually something's gone wrong, you see.

Do you speak to her every day? And my bowels kind of turn over slightly when I see she's foamed. So I have to sort of gird myself to ring back. Do you want to speak to her? No, because something might have gone wrong and then I'll, I'll ship myself in the park. Bruce hasn't gone yet. Because I'm terrified of that because I believe that as the dog walker, I have to pick up, I have to scoot the poop. Yeah, you do.

And I think it's going to be a heavy load. I think Bruce is so sort of blokey He's going to spend quite a lot of time straining And then he's going to be quite proud of it He really is It's going to be like... If Russell Crowe when he was getting ripped for Gladiator It's going to be that kind of extra moment

Yeah, come look at this So when you, those first early gigs And you must have been working That was sort of what mid-80s was it? It was 82 I started So the early 80s So was it like sort of Eddie Isard, people like that? Eddie was after me?

Oh, was it? Yeah, absolutely. I came just as the first comedy store kind of closed and all... So Ben Elton would have been. No, they would. They'd just been swooped into television and there was this sort of the left oaks. There were sort of people like me and Paul Merton. Yes.

And Harry Enfield was doing the double acts, which was rather good. Oh, yeah. I tell you who was around, came along very quickly. Mark Steele, people like that. It's all quite political. Jeremy Hardy, those, you know, John Hedley, the poet. You wrote something really funny

once where you said something in an interview about when Joe Brand came along with it. Furious. So, oh God, not another woman. I'm the woman. I won't get the gigs if there's another woman. Because you can't have two women on a bill. You can't have to, in fact, in those days,

if he had a woman on a bill, They didn't have to have to have another woman on the bill for six months. So were you quite annoyed? Did you not like her at first? Like from afar? From afar I didn't. But then I saw her at the comedy store, not at the comedy store, it's at the Tunnel Club. And she was so good.

She just stood her ground and I thought, God, she's really given me a kick up the ass, actually. And Hattie Hayridge, the same. There were two women suddenly came along. Linda Smith was also around. Oh, yes, yeah. And there was a girl called Jenny LeCol. who was very feminist with a guitar. And throughout all this period,

because you then, you had Phoebe when you were actually late 20? Yeah, I was 20, I was just a month off 29 when I had Phoebe. You got married when you were 22 or something? Not married, I got married when I was 57. But you moved into the flat and refused to leave. Yeah, absolutely. And then you were 27 when you had... Well, 27, no, 28 when I got pregnant.

and 28 when I had Phoebe had it just before my 29th birthday the month before. And did that again, you've spoken quite honestly about this. Just that juggling thing was tough, wasn't it? Oh, I got a nanny as soon as I decently could. It was very laxadaisical the way that I got it.

I put a note up in the supermarket. Girl wanted. Preferably non-smoker. So I got Dominique. Preferably non-murdering. I got Dominique, who was about... Preferably non-smoker. That's all right.

Yeah, it was hit. Did you say preferably non-smoker? Because I don't want them stealing my cigarette. Yeah, I don't have my facts. I'd stop smoking them for a while. And then I got Dominique, who's from the north, and she had no experience whatsoever, but she'd looked after a friend's younger brother.

And I liked her, and she didn't know what Bree Cheese was. She was very northern. And she was a great girl, and she was right for me, and she was right for Phoebe. She had loads of energy. But when Phoebe was three, Dominique did something very naughty and I had to sack her. And it was awful because she knew she was going to be sacked.

Oh, no. Because what she'd done was awful. Now I'm dying to know. Well, I was filming a TV series with Frank Skinner called Packard of Three up in the north. And we used to film on a Friday night. And I said to Dominique, there's only one night where you have to babysit.

because we were living in Wakefield which was actually very near her hometown so we stayed we had this house in Home Firth anyway I said you have to babysit Friday night that's the only night that's filming night and I need to rely on you and it was somebody's

21st that she knew from home and she gave feedback to strangers to look after and I no you can't, it's hard to come back from that I just said no but it was time for her to move on

but was that difficult sort of and then I got Vanessa who's been the best thing ever who really made Phoebe into a nice person who she wouldn't have been if I'd looked after her you know so it's thanks to Vanessa that Phoebe's decent but but did was it hard sort of because I got this sense as well

that when she was kind of about 12 you were a bit more back in her life yeah well that's when Vanessa said listen it's embarrassing me being a sort of charm-minded now she's 12. You know, they're apparently quite capable of walking themselves home from school. You know, this is ridiculous. Did you feel guilt, though, Jenny?

I did when you were going to gigs and she was a baby. I felt relief. I felt, I couldn't. Well, Jeff would come home. Jeff was looking after her. They've still got a very good relationship because Jeff did a lot of that groundwork. That's good, isn't it? So if you put the meows in, you know, I've had to do quite a lot of buying her stuff to get back into, you know, favour.

Really. I liked a story you once told about how Phoebe had wound you up and said that she'd called the nanny mommy or something. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to wind you up. She still, when we went to see Mama Me too, we went with Vanessa. She said, oh, look at me with my two mummies. It's like the film because there were three potential daddy.

She said, I've got two mummies. Yeah, which is right. It's right. You've got to give other women the credit. They do the job. I'm getting dog envy because Ray's sitting. I want you to go on your lap. Really sort of, and you can just stroke her and play with her hair and give her bunches.

Well, I was going to say to you, because we need to talk about dogs, but that was the dog, when I did your podcast, which you do with Judith, which is fabulous. Yeah. And you were saying that. I've got two doggies on my lap. You were saying that you wanted to get a dog and you said you might consider a dachshund. That was the dog you'd always wanted, wasn't it? Yeah, the dach. I'm still, no, I never wanted a dog growing up.

Never wanted a dog in my life. But now, when I feel that this is the time to have a dog in my life, I think there's a dachshund-shaped hole in my life. You look like a real dog woman now. Well, I'm surrounded by dogs. I'm going to smell a dog all day. I'm going to have to have a bath. Jenny, when you started to get sort of success, mainstream success,

when was that in terms of you thinking I'm famous or I'm successful? Or was there a moment? Well, I think getting the first big telly, which was Packard of Three, which, you know, in terms of today's telly was successful, but back then was deemed a disaster. Yeah. Because we only got four and a half million viewers. But I, you know, from then on, there were,

I did odd things that I became, that some people knew me for. But there was never a moment where I couldn't get on a bus. Yeah, yeah. But there's a nice kind of fame, though, isn't it? Because it means that you've got fans who respect you, but it's not... It's not silly. No, it's never been silly. It's not sort of, the sort of fame that gives you mental healthish.

I'd have liked to, no, I'd have liked to made more money. That's the only thing I regret. I'd have no problem about not being more famous. I'd have liked to be a bit more rich from it. That makes me a bit cross. I get the impression you're quite good with money, though. I'm quite good with money. Are you?

Yeah, how did you guess that? I don't know. I think just things I've read about you and just from your dad. Because my clothes are so old. But I get the sense that if you grow up with, were your parents quite sort of. Very good with money. Yeah. Very good of money.

So you've got those savings. I've got the saving gene. Yes, I'm sort of okay with money, I think. Yeah. I've had to be because I'm not in a job with a pension. I don't have a pension. So obviously it's not in a mattress. It's not under the bed.

I've put it away. Do you get, you strike me as someone who wouldn't get frightened and would never get scared of confrontation. I'm not scared of confrontation. Are you not? Are you ever? When are you scared of having conversations with people? What do you dread? Like what sort of conversations do you think, oh God, I don't want to ring this person? Because I interviewed Al Murray and I was quite shocked because Al said, I hate confrontation. He said, I've got to make a phone call now about a work thing and I'm dreading it. I don't think I'm sort of, I'm in the position to have very much confrontation. A lot, I mean, anything ugly to do with work is usually handled by management. I mean, I have a appalling guilt. I cancelled a gig a few months. ago. And it still bothers me because it was a charity gig. But I was offered Sky Arts, Portrait Artist of the Year. And I really badly wanted to do it. And obviously I gave money to the charity

and all that kind of thing. But I still wake up at night occasionally thinking I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have done it. But I got five grand and I needed it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I have guilt. terrible guilt. But... Do you... Like with friends? Would you have an argument with a friend? I would very rarely have an argument with a friend.

I very rarely get to a position where it would lead to an argument. Probably because you'd say it beforehand. Or I'd avoid it, or I'd nip in the bug before it got nasty. I would hope so, yes. With humour, probably. Which is useful. I think it can be really useful. But I don't have that many friends.

And the friends I do have know me so well... Yeah. That we're not really going to... territory that would cause rouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think so. I'm not a rower. I'm not a natural door slumber or a...

And if I am, I'm very quick to apologise. Are you? Yes, I don't find saying sorry, difficult at all. I don't mean it most of the time, obviously, but I can... Sorry, sorry, God, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, you feel that way. Oh, no, that's awful. Well, that's the anti-apology, isn't it?

Yeah, no, no, no. Sorry you feel that way. No, you can't say that. You just say it under your breath. That's essentially like saying, I'm not in the slightest bit sorry. Sorry, not sorry. You're a narcissist and I hate you. No, I mean, Jeff and I know, remember we've been together a very long time.

We know what buttons are not to push. Yeah, yeah. You know, we have separate bank accounts. I'm away quite a lot. It snows. How did you, you know, with your comedy and stuff, and you're so well known for that, But do you think, how did you initially, given that you were, as I say, a sort of early female sepler, did you struggle with that with Heckels and with being in a male environment?

I've never been great with Heckels. I used to live in dread and fear of them. Not anymore. I really couldn't care less if people want to make fools of themselves. You know, I can deal with it. I mean, I might not have anything funny to say, but I can always deal with it. Yes. But back then it would make me panic and die.

So I'd come on and I'd go so fast and I'd be so loud and I'd be so swary. They didn't really have any time to get a heckle in. I mean, that was always my default position that I'd just go like a train. And I was just this kind of mad creature on stage. And I can imagine that it was kind of, I know that I was a bit of a force of energy and not everybody's cup of tea. And it's been a relief to be able to grow into a stage persona, which is a lot more me.

Do you think so? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm much more me on stage now, you know, and it's so, it's such a relief, but I wouldn't have been allowed that voice at 22. It wouldn't have been allowed that voice at 22 and also because of the time, whereas I think...

Nobody would have given me the time to have that voice. Women now can. Yeah, which is why female comedy is so much better than it used to be. Yeah. Because at its best, we were just sort of aping the boys in some respects. And now girls are just doing much more interesting things.

They're not even bothering with jokes as much. They're doing sort of more creative stuff, which is... Some male comics would say, oh, but that's not comedy. Well, maybe it's not comedy. But it's not their comedy is what I would say. This is new comedy. This is interesting kind of groundbreaking stuff in a different direction. Yeah.

This topics are jealous. But they couldn't have done that without you. still can't do. But they couldn't have done that without you, I don't think. Possibly not. Comments like you and Joe. I think they'd have found a way in the end. I'm not so sure. Stories will out. Well, I don't know. In the same way, you know, strange comparison.

But there'd be no Ariana Grande or Miley Cyrus without Madonna because she had to be tougher and louder and noisier. Do you know what I mean? I'm essentially comparing you to Madonna, Jenny Affair. Yeah, I'm slightly offended. The only thing about Madonna that sort of gets on my nerves is she has never one. wants demonstrated a sense of humour. I totally agree with you. And I just think, oh come on Madonna, you're 60 now.

It's time not to take yourself seriously. You've got to have a laugh at this. I wanted to talk a bit more about your other work. So grumpy old women became... That became very successful. Huge, didn't it? That was a really lovely sort of kind of felt like a second wind in the career. Did it? Yeah, it did.

Because it felt like everything was over very much. Did it? I never, really. When did you think that? It was quite hard. It was sort of, you know, 2005, six, seven, something like that. You know, it was okay, but it was diminishing returns. You know, the solo gigs were fine,

but I wasn't getting any more than a small arts centre. I was never getting beyond. So when Grumpy, the first live Grumpy was hugely successful. And we toured this country extensively. We went to Australia. It went to Iceland and it went to Finland. and it was translated into different languages and other actresses, you know, learnt the script and did it.

It became like a franchise, yeah. Yeah, it was terribly exciting. And it was such a much bigger show than anybody thought it was going to be and it was better than anybody thought because they thought it was going to be some lazy kind of vagina monologue-esque three women sitting on stools moaning. And it wasn't. It was a great big...

And they've always been, we've done four of them now, and they have a set, they have costumes, they have choreography, they have... They're a big thing. You know, they're rather wonderful, actually. I'm very proud of them. And is that ongoing as well? That might be ongoing.

I think that the podcast, older and wider, is a sort of sit-down version. Which is brilliant. A little lo-fi kind of, is that what they say now, lo-fi. Yeah, low-fi. Because I met you on that. I did that with you recently.

Yeah, well, we only let you on because I liked your book. I know. Well, do you know what, though? I love doing it because I just felt it was interesting, just being really honest. I think I'd always seen you as being so funny and quick and like sharp extrovert, you know. Yeah. It was interesting talking to you about things like bereavement and grief and slightly heavier things

because I was like, oh God, she's good at gear changes and she's not frightened. You know, I do think some comics. I don't have embarrassment about feelings particularly. No, you don't. But do you think some comics do? Well, yes, but that's because they're not writers. And that's where... Do you think that's what it is?

Yeah, but I mean, I am as much a writer as a performer. So, and if you can't do emotion in writing, you're really screwed, aren't you? I suppose so, maybe you're right. Well, then there's never a change of tone. Yeah. Don't pick his eyes like that. You need to take his eyeball out. What's that?

I'm picking at his bits, Jenny, because shih Tzu's get bits. Oh, oh. Is it eye gunk? Has that put you off? I don't know whether I could do eye gunk. They got rid of the eye gunk. I think you're getting on well with him. I want to talk about your...

books as well. Yes, so then we must go home because... Let's go home and we'll get... I've got a book to write. You're a writer. So you're writing, I read Moving Yeah.

Which I couldn't put down. Did you buy it for 99P on? Absolutely. Were you one of those? Yes. Well, do you know what? I hope you get some money from that, Jenny. Well, I have a horrible feeling that I

won't because I don't know what the Kindle deal is like. Let's get a drink on the way back for you to take home and I'll buy that. Hey, that's a great. Would that make sense? Because you know, I'm quite... Come on, Bruce.

Are you okay? I forgot I had a dog then. Do you know what? You said, come on, Bruce. A bit like, you know when someone's going back to a marriage and it's on its last legs? And they've had a weekend away with some friends having fun and they're like, hi, I'm home.

It was that, Jenny. What, with the way I spoke to Bruce? Yeah, I felt like you've... Bruce is not my dog. I know. But, you know, Lee, you've got to understand. I'm so glad that Bruce has got you in his life. Because I'm not right for Bruce, am I?

It's good that you've had today, actually. I know that there's got to be... Look, Bruce, look, there's some beautiful roses here that I have to go and smell. I'm very big on roses. Oh, let's have a smell, Bruce. Not huge, not a huge scent of these. No, Bruce, what do you think of those?

Oh, Bruce? No, no, no, please. Leave Ray, alone. Oh, Bruce. It's okay, way, way, mommy's here. This is what you do, Jenny, just so you know. If a dog gets frightened, you just say, I'm here. I'm here.

I'm here. Can I just say something? Three women just walked past then. They didn't even look at my dog. I'm absolutely livid. Is that a big thing for you? Yeah, I want, you know, some kind of... Well, I suppose it's more attention-seeking, isn't it? But I would quite like a dog.

Well, Jenny, I get very upset if people... Because I think, Ray, my dog, I'm not boasting, but I am. Yeah. I think he's exceptional looking and very cute. And if people don't stop and go, oh my God, I really hate them. Yeah, I know. Well, I just think a little bit the same about Bruce, and I don't really like Bruce that much. But I do expect people to go, oh, look at his intelligent face.

Well, that's the thing. It's like, I always feel it would be like dating Ronaldo or something and no one looking. Yeah. You have to put up with it. No, I'm trying to, I'm passing loads of people. Nobody's said anything. God. You know you said you had the show off, Gene?

Yeah. She's outrageous. Absolutely outrageous. Your daughter, Phoebe, is she like you? She's got a lot of me in her, and then she's got a lot of her father in her. Yeah. But she's mostly herself, really. Yeah.

She looks like me, but a sort of thin, younger, pretty version. Yeah. And she's a writer, but she's sort of much more academic than me. Oh, like you then? Yeah. She's a playwright, isn't she? She's a screenwriter, a scriptwriter, and it's a bit of telly. He must be really proud that she's.

Let's go through this nice grassy path, Jenny. Where the adders are. Don't you worry, Bruce will get the adder. So your books, yes, I read moving your book, and it's just so brilliant, Jenny. You're such a brilliant writer. Yes, I know. I'm glad you took that compliment, because some people can't. No, no.

I struggle, you know. If someone said I like your book, I didn't know what to say. I felt, and again, I think this is, possibly my generation is, I'm not allowed to say, oh, thank you, yeah, I'm really proud of it. I would say, oh, well, I would start in that. And I think, but your book is different because it's so personal. Yes. It's so about you.

Yes. So taking a compliment about your book is almost like sort of a bit more showy off me. But I think people, if people say to me, I really enjoyed moving, I think, well, that's fair enough, you know, took me a long time. had to make it up. Hard work. So the new one is called Inheritance. I sit on your kitchen table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't wait to read that one.

Well, well, dubbed for saying that out of the hat. I'm going to pre-order a copy now. Can I pre-order it on Amazon? Yeah, you can, but it's expensive because it's hardback. They've done it all poshly this time. I'm doing all right now. Oh, well, then good. And you've got the other one for 99P.

Yeah, but I'll be the hardback purchaser. Yeah, even it out. These are lovely dogs, Jenny. Have a look at these. Border Terrier. Is that a Border Terrier? Beautiful. Bordetariat.

Yes. Fun, fun. I've got to run this rather young... French bulldog. Can't speak Yorkshire. Doesn't speak Yorkshire. It isn't going to speak Yorkshire. Do you know what's interesting on the dog wall? Is that I assume everyone's like me and wants to chat? No, he really didn't, he? He really didn't. Why didn't he like us?

I think he might have been on his way to someone. I don't know. Don't know. But the dog didn't look friendly either. I don't, God, I don't want one of those either. Some terrible dogs, aren't there? Jenny, I don't... Get one, you too much. Okay, so, so far, what are the runners and riders for you getting a dog?

Daxunt, possibly Airdale. Oh, Airdale's a nice. There are a lot of work, though. Well, you see, then that's off the list. I'm not having a hard work dog. No, this is why I think you should go Shih Tzu, though. Look how... I don't think Jeff would want to look after a Shih Tzu. I think it's too female for him. And I think the...

fact that I think he's warming to the dachshund I work quite hard and then we met this dachshund Chihuahua cross and I know Jeff was quite taken because they had really big ears I wonder what that's like Bruce Bruce has got beautiful ears do you know what that's called it Chihuahua dachshund cross a dacchi maybe something like yeah um I want to ask you have therapy um I have dabbled um and I believe in it but I believe in it's very hard to get the right person do you yeah I do and I think that if you're quite bright and you're quite cynical yes it's very easy to despise the people who are trying to help you yes come on Bruce this way

go home home boy come on oh you're getting quite into it home oh yeah home boy I'm smiling people now sort of as if say look at my dog but then there is a side to you which I think is quite come on get on with it like you're quite stiff upper lip as well aren't you Yes, I'm stoic. My mother's very stoic. I get that. Is she? And my father, yes, was obviously, I mean, you know, he went into a nursing home when he was 87 and then wasn't able to walk for the last two years of his life. Yeah.

For three years, really. And he kind of just battened down the hatches and just got on with it and survived it. Yeah. You know, and had a good humour with it. That must have been tough when he died, though. No, not really. Wasn't it, why? Because he was 90. So you were expecting it.

And it was time to go. You know, we were starting to joke about pillows over his face and things like that. And he was, he'd had enough. And he was tired and he was ready. Yeah. And it was done well and we were all there and it was okay, do you know? Yeah, yeah. I understand, yeah.

But I mean, it's really weird because I always thought I was a bit of a daddy's girl. Were you? But the sort of, but the idea of losing my mother makes my legs go weak underneath me. We're going here. Yes, I'll get you a coffee today coming back to your desk. So inheritance is out, which I actually can't wait. I've become such a fan of your writing. It's so funny.

You just pick up a book and you think, oh my God, this is my kind of writer. Better than I thought it was going to be. No, Jenny. Don't think dogs are allowed in here. You hold right. What can I get you? I would like, I need something cold now. If they've got a ginger beer, I'll have a ginger beer.

If they haven't got a ginger beer, I'll just have water. Oh, like a papachino type thing? No, they're just too creamy. You don't like milk shaky type. No, boo, boo. Jenny, you take Ray. Are you okay? I'm going to take Ray because I've got this drink open.

It looks like you've just come back from the pub. It looks like your daytime drinking. Come on, Ray. I love what you said once about Helen Mirage, that she's made it hard to be middle-aged. What do you mean by that? I just sort of that insistence on I want sex every day and I'm still, you know, such a sexy being.

I find it quite boring, actually. I don't mind, you know, be sexy as you like. But don't expect everybody to follow suit. You know, it's just a kind of slightly boring, vain way of getting older to insist that you're still gorgeous. Do you know what I mean? It's insisting you're still gorgeous. Well, I also think, and I think one of the nice things I found about getting on,

Oh no, it's a green lighten. Yeah, Bruce is real life. It's the relief that that's no longer my currency. But you will have that currency for a long time because you're that tight. I'm sorry. You're going to be attractive and sexual. Probably tell you about 70.

Unless you're cross to bear. You might not feel like it, but other people will feel like, you know, playing that game. I feel... Because I think you will still be able to get away with the bikini when you're not. you're 50.

Do you? Yes, I do. I think that there's a... I tell you what I think, no, Jenny, I found it a relief. Just, you know what, here sometimes, female friends of mine, you know, in their 40s, some rose to me saying,

oh, don't you miss the looks? I used to, I used to, and I said, what, you miss a truck driver saying, I want shouting something sexual to you in the street? I don't, I honestly don't understand that. I honestly don't, and I sort of think I actually find my now going to dinner parties or going out with friends and I don't know I feel like I feel like it's one it's something like like a weight was lifted that I don't care I don't think about

that so much you know I have to say I enjoyed my time as a very attractive woman in my 30s yeah I became a very attractive woman I was doing a lot of yoga I was still eating sensibly yeah and I sort of had a few peak years I remember one I had a car, it was a green Daimler, a classic car in a dark forest green. And I was driving to a gig and it was a beautiful day and I was still smoking and I looked the coolest I have ever looked. I caught sight of myself in the rearview mirror and I thought, you are absolute fucking babe, you really are. And like it was one of those nights and I was exuding it. I was like giving it off like a smell. And there wasn't a single car that didn't toot and wasn't looking and didn't fancy me.

And I honestly felt... Excuse me, Jenny. Oh, shit. Oh, no, Bruce... It's exactly what's going on. And it's a sloppy one. And I think it might mean the chocolate. Do you want a poo bag, Lee?

I think you need a hose. Lee, I would, but I've got my hands full. And I don't think that's going to come up. Oh, your house is coming up here, Jenny. You were getting to the inn. Yeah, yeah. You can come in, though? I really enjoy.

Yeah, you can come in. I really enjoy. Well, I've got to get my bag. Yeah, that's why you're coming in. Jeff's gone. There's no car there. His car is. I really wanted, Jeff.

Yeah, I know. Everyone does. Jeff's got a nice aura about it. He's got a nice energy around him. I just felt, I felt, oh, I think I might come around again if that's okay. Well, you need an excuse. Oh, do you, oh, Ray. Hi, Ray.

Jenny, this is what you do when you want him to come. You say, Ray, Ray, Ray. Jenny, bend down like this. Come on, Ray. What you do is this? You slut drop. Yeah, and then I had to get back up again. That might not happen.

There's a lot of stuff like. Jeff's fair. I mean, I'm supposed to go on. I've got Jeff Mentionitis. Yeah, Jeff's a good-looking, handsome. But you're a good-looking woman, is what? You're a very lovely couple. All right, we're going in now.

You've got Ray. You've got Ray. I'm coming in. To the beautiful house. You see, we've got very good floors for dogs because they shit on here. It's just black rubber. It's just perfect. It's perfect for dogs.

Oh, look, we've got Jenny and Claire's book on the kitchen table again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought it down. Is that a picture of you, Jenny? Which one? No, that is a, he's a quite well-known page called John Bratby. Oh, God, he's really famous. Yeah.

We bought us at auction a few months ago. Come on, Ray. We're going to take you outside. They can't get out. Ray really likes. You see, this is why it's so set up for dogs. Well, Jenny, we're going to have to leave you in peace to finish your writing. I was going to say, how have you felt today?

I mean, Bruce has been quite a full-on intro. Yes. Listen, Bruce is a fabulous dog. And Bruce is so happy with Lee. He wouldn't be happy with me, would he, Lee? He's not my dog, is he? No, I don't think. He likes, yeah, he's very energetic, likes to.

grandma likes to call you. He needs a young, a young mummy or a young daddy to look after him. He doesn't want a grandma. I think what you're essentially doing is singing Bruce the equivalent of I will always love you, I'm just not what you need. And you're sending him free. It's not you, it's me. You're setting him free to find a younger owner.

So he's got one and I'm really pleased that Lee and Bruce have found each other because they're right people for each other. But you know. My worry about him, right? There's a foxhole. What, Ray? Where's the foxhole? Here.

Here. They live in there? Under there, he could come, he could get through to the next door's garden. Oh, we don't want him to get. No, he won't. He's so on adventurous, Jenny. Really? He's honestly, you know those failure to launch kids that just live at home forever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done. I've trained him. I've really tried that with Phoebe. It didn't work. She was about 26 when she went. I really groomed him to just live at home forever. Oh, there's someone in next door's gardens, that's okay.

Come on, Ray. He won't like that. look there's a he's really happy here I love your Japanese garden well Jenny we need to leave your music can I give you a hug yes I really loved Archer

and I'd love to talk to you and anyone who's listened to this you must check out Jenny's podcast older and wider and you must also buy inheritance yes in the heritage going out right now

and moving 99p Kindle store yeah it's gone up to on 99 because it's July now But it was in the Rich and Judy Book Club, and it's so brilliant. I saw 40,000 copies of moving last month when it was 99P. It's so typical of my life that. That totally sums up my life.

Oh, the book was quite successful. Yes, only when it's 99P. Well, I've loved our dog walk and I'm so glad that you enjoyed. Well, I've got to get, Lee's got to have my number, which I'm not going to do broadcast here. So I'm going to take this microphone off. We'll hug. Can we hug, please? We're hugging.

Thank you, Jenny. I really don't want to leave. You smell exactly the same as the dog. The dog, you honestly shampoo that dog, don't you? You shampoo it? That's ridiculous. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that, and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.