Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jeremy Paxman

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

Emily goes for a walk with broadcaster and writer Jeremy Paxman and his dog Derek. They talk about his childhood, why he hated boarding school, his encounters with Tony Blair and Bill Clinton and what makes him laugh. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

He's a soppy dog. Do you know what? I think you're a soppy owner. I probably am, actually. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll with legendary broadcaster, journalist and author Jeremy Paxman. And his dog Derek, a Dalmatian-Spaniel cross from Battersea Dogs Home. I have to say, having spent several years watching Jeremy casually disembowl politicians on TV, I was slightly terrified about the prospect of meeting him. I had visions of him saying,

what sort of a question is that? Have you done any preparation? But guess what? I got him totally wrong. The man was a joy to spend time with. He was funny and honest and just really easy to chat to. He even let me call him Jezer. We talked about his childhood and how he hated boarding school,

his encounters with everyone from Tony Blair to Bill Clinton, and he also spoke really openly about his struggles with depression. And yes, Derek, there was a lot of chat about you too. Jeremy's a brilliant writer, so I thoroughly recommend checking out his books. His autobiography, by the way, which I mention, is called A Life in Question. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Jeremy as much as I did. I'll hand over to the man himself now. Here's Jezza.

I'm Derek. I start quite informally. You have a set formula for this. How many of them have you done so far? About 60. 60? Yes, possibly more. Christ.

And all were dogs. Yeah. Some of them I did, Rob Bryden wanted to do it and he didn't have a dog. And he said, oh, I love a retriever. And I think I thought he was just saying that. I didn't know he expected me to get one. So you borrowed a retriever? Yeah. Because I worked with Dogs Trust and Battersea where I know you got Derek. Well, we were very lucky with him because he was born there. And what am I going to do with this, Derek? I just leave it around my neck. Did you notice me and the producer rushed to help Jeremy? Because I think you have... Because I'm an old man. No. Yeah, I'm amazed. I'm 70 years old, you know.

I was 70 in May. It really is getting me down a bit. I'm a bit obsessed. I'm afraid you might find I talk about it a bit. But you look very sprightly. You look sort of European 70. European 70. Is that good?

Well, I think so. It's very good. I like your idea of keeping the producer of pace behind. Okay, let's go then. Come on, Jeremy. Well, this is your manner, isn't it? Well, not really. I don't come here very often, but I know it a bit.

Come on, Derek. Derek. Christ, we lost the dog already. Oh, here he is. I have to say, Derek's just had me at Hello. No, he's a sweet dog. I love him desperately. So I should probably do the formal bit where I introduce you.

Okay, do whatever you want. I was quite scared and nervous about meeting this man, simply because in every article you ever read with him, that's how it starts. I was nervous. I was trepidacious. Oh, for heaven's sake. And do you know what?

I then spoke to the editor of Saga magazine, who's lovely. Saga magazine, Christ. She said he's an absolute darling and a pussy cat, especially when it comes to Derek. And that reassured me. I'm here today with Jeremy Paxman and his dog Derek. Jeremy, will you introduce us to Derek? Derek, well, Derek is his mother, as you can see from the spots on his back. His mother was a Dalmatian.

His father was obviously a rather ambitious spaniel with very dominant genes. He looks like a spaniel. He was born in Battersea Dogs Home, and I love him. He's been the perfect dog. Oh, look at that little dog, Jeremy. I like that dog, except... What is it, a little poodle? I think it's a poodle, yeah.

Oh, it likes Derek. A lot of bum-sniffing, yeah. What were you going to say? You had a caveat about that. Yeah, I don't like coats on dogs. Oh. What do you mean overly fluffy? Well, I can't see any...

No, I mean jackets. Oh, I don't like clothing. I can't see any points in doing that. That's what they've got fur for. So Derek doesn't have any items of clothing. He does have an item of clothing, which I refuse to put on him. What is it? It's a sort of...

Well, it's a rain jacket with a bit of warmth inside it. But I take the view that if a dog's got a coat, it's got it for a reason. When did you get Derek? When did Derek come into your life? About three years ago. Had you built up to this? Yeah, I've always had dogs. I've had Labradors in particular. But this one is...

But I wasn't living in the country, in the town then. And what he does, of course, is he goes, you'll find that there are people having picnics here, not bothering anybody. and Derek will go and hang around. Oh, he doesn't like skateboards for some reason. Derek, stop it, you stupid animal. Don't worry, it's fine. You're entitled to skateboard if you want to.

Derek, stop it. He's not minding, he's not doing anybody any harm, is he? Come on, Derek, you come here, you stupid animal. We should explain Derek just went, charging at this Gen Zedder on a skateboard. What's the skateboard thing? I don't know. It's the only time

he ever barked. Do you find when you're out walking, Jeremy, and you get, people sort of clock you like I think that man on that skateboard just now, I think he might have, if he was going to turn around and say,

keep your dog off. I think he would have then seen you and thought better of it. Oh well, Possible. So it can have some advantages, although actually this whole recognition thing, it's stupid, isn't it? I don't understand these people who talk about, oh, I can't go anywhere because I'm always bothered by people. Or don't put yourself in a position where people are going to recognise you. Do you think that? Yeah, I do.

That's the good thing about radio, of course, or podcasts. People don't know. He's found some food under this bench look. You're not on social media, are you? No, I don't do social media. I hate it. Why? Because it requires you to take an instant position on things, which is probably the worst position you could take.

My instant reaction to things is always stupid. So I think it's a bad idea. All it exists to do is to make people feel bad. about themselves. So I don't like it. Where should we go, Jeremy? Should we turn up there? I'm worried it's getting a bit busy up there. I don't know what's up there. I don't mind. You might meet another skateboarder. Here he comes again, look. Here he comes. Oh dear. He's not intimidated. Derek.

Just leave him alone, Derek. Leave him. Leave Derek. I'd say leave my alone. Please bugger all attention to me. Come here. We better go somewhere. Should we go there? Let's go near the pond. Will Derek jump into the pond?

No, he won't. We should say where we are. I'm interested to hear how you describe where we are. I think we're in Kensington Gardens, aren't we? I mean, it always seems to be part of Hyde Park, but I think technically the road that goes past the Serpentine Gallery is the dividing line between High Park, whatever, gardens or whatever this is.

This is sort of like, the extended... Or High Park, Kentina Gardens and... Yes, and I always associate this with Princess Diana because of the gates and the floral tributes. Yeah, you said where are the Princess Diana gates? So they're around the front, the floral tribute gates, yeah. Oh, where all that mountain of stuff was left? Do you remember? I do, very vividly.

You met her, didn't you? Yeah, I did meet her, yeah. Did you like her? Uh, yeah, she was all right. I mean, of course, you know, the most moment you clap eyes on someone, that she was a worldwide face, of course. And she said, oh Jeremy, just the two of us, can you cope? And I thought, oh yes, I certainly can. But actually, I felt rather sorry for her. I thought she was, she was rather lonely. That must have been quite a thing when you get the invite, though, the call.

Well, it was her private secretary, yeah. And you kind of think this is a wind-up. I did think it was a wind-up. But that was genuine. I think she used to invite lots of people. I don't think it was anything special about me. I wanted to know you were talking about having dogs. Yes.

Throughout your life, really. Yeah. You've referred to Labradors. You had a dog growing up, didn't you? You had them as, when you were a kid, you had dogs. Yeah, Dinah. She was a dachshund. Well, she eventually got run over on a road in Worcestershire.

We were living in Worcestershire at the time. I'm obsessed by dog families, Jeremy. Yeah, I've read that in your book. You think people divide into dog families and cat families. Personally, I always think cats are completely useless. They're indifferent. Do you think so? Yeah.

I mean, I like cats. I just think... I mean, no cats ever going to chase a... skateboard like Derek did, are they? Not that it did him much good, I agree. Cats are useless things. Now, look, Derek's going to bugger up these people's picnic.

But you had two brothers and a sister? That's right, yes. That would have been my idea of heaven. Were you close? Well, you seem to me to have, I read your book and you seem to me to have a very close relationship with your sister. That was lovely. But no, we weren't particularly close. We were a Yorkshire family, you know, and it was only when I did one of those, who do you think you are things. We hadn't originally come from Yorkshire. We'd moved there in the middle of the 19th century.

But we were a Yorkshire family, and then a Yorkshire family, so I think my mum, when I'd asked, when I'd ask, how are you, mum? She'd say, oh, not so bad. in a reconciled sort of way. Was that partly generational, do you think? Or do you think that was partly your mum as well? Partly my mum, but I think it was that generation. That generation were accustomed to putting up with things. I think they were a wonderful generation. Do you?

And we've, yeah, baby boomers like myself, we've been pretty terrible. I think my dog encourages me to be, the best version of myself. Do you think that's true of you and Derry? I don't know. I hadn't thought about that. Does he make me better? I tend to be, I smile at people more. I'm more benign. And I love the fact that when you go on public transport with a dog, it's a bore carrying them if you've got to carry them up an escalator. But if you're on public transport with a dog, People talk to one another and they don't normally. I love that.

So your dad was away Jeremy a lot, wasn't he? Because he had a naval career when you were younger. That's right, yes. He was. What's the effect of that, do you think, your dad not being around that much? Well, he was a kind of typical middle-class dad when even after that,

that he, I think, viewed bringing up children and maintaining the household as my mother's job. And I'm not sure that wouldn't wash anymore. What was the effect of it? He was a distant figure. I didn't warm to him

at all, ever. I never warmed to him. And I feel sorry for that. Do you? Well, I think it was hard to him. Men you know, men are unaware of their feelings very often, unaware of the need to be indulged and indulgent

and to be physically demonstrative towards animals and people. And I feel bad about that, that I didn't do that with my dad. It's too late now. But then you model... what you're, you know, you only know what you're taught, don't you? So if your parents aren't demonstrative, you know, that's, isn't that way you learn? Yes, I suppose it is. So I don't, for you to suddenly know how to do that in a vacuum. I think you're being a bit hard on yourself. There's nothing wrong with being hard on yourself. Do you think? Well, I'm rather

impatient with people who are easy on themselves. You're never doing it. anything if you're easy on yourself. My motto has always been, do things that you're scared of doing. And you won't know until you do it.

You sort of jumped classes in your childhood, didn't you? Yes. And how did that happen? Because your parents suddenly... It's education you know. I'm convinced it's education. It's... I mean, the reason I talk as I do and the reason I behave as I do and have the mores I have is because of where I went to

school. I went to a fee paying a school and I'm not sure that I'm any better for it apart from that but it but it dye stamps you. Did you feel at school that different at all? You know, were you conscious that you were sort of newly arrived in this class? Well, a lot of people were in those days. It's one of the great things. People say stupid things about this country. One of them is that it's very class-bound. It's actually got tremendous class mobility

and always has had tremendous class mobility. And, I mean, I'm working on a book at present about the English Civil War. The Duke of Buckingham, who was the most powerful man in England after the king, in the early 1600s. I mean, he came from a lessish of farming family.

It's always happened. And so I don't think that there was a great class barrier and I do think that in those days before private schooling became so absurdly expensive In those days, you would get the local schoolmaster, the local doctor, the local solicitor would send their children away. They can't afford it now.

What was boarding school like, Jeremy? Because I didn't go to boarding school. I didn't like it. Did you not? No. I felt lonely and I felt slightly abandoned. I used to, it was absurd really. I used to think of a particular object that I had with me.

I think mum touched that just before I went back to school and I missed her. Oh, I find that a bit of heartbreaking. What did you say to your parents? I'm really not enjoying this. Those conversations couldn't be had really. You were supposed to put up with it. And, you know, that helped, I think. think probably. That Labrador is taking an interest in Derek. I'm just flagging it up, Jeremy.

What do you think it's going to do? I don't think Labradors are very aggressive, are they? Do you like Labradors? Yeah, I do. Do you? We always used to have them when I was a kid after the diner and then when I first had my kids, black Labradors are always set to be more easily trainable than chocolate ones or golden ones. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know them. If you look at most keepers.

Oh, Jeremy, let's go here. Let's get away from the ducks. Okay. Derek! They're not ducks, they're geese. You can't get away with anything with Paxman. He's on it. He's on it.

Come on, Derek. Do you know, I think I was really guilty of, I made a very lazy assumption about you before I before I read your book A Life in Questions which is absolutely brilliant by the way I loved it I know I genuinely I think you write so beautifully

your job was so linked to that in a way writing is what I most enjoy getting the right words in the right order is tremendously satisfying how do you find the process of writing though? Torturous I don't particularly enjoy it. No one likes writing, everyone likes having written. Yes. Would you agree? I think that's right. I like

finding things out. Curiosity is what gets me up in the morning, the sense of, well, like coming here to meet you, I've never met you before, and I'm curious. Ask me anything, Jeremy. No, I wouldn't dream of it. It's your gig. Well, I was going to say, I think, yeah, I was guilty of, you. making a lazy assumption about you, was that I would see you on telly and because of the way you spoke, because you're really articulate, but I think mostly because you seemed so fearless

with people in positions of power, I assumed you were from, let's say, a Boris Johnson-type world. Oh, Christ, no. That's a low blow. Compare me with Boris Johnson, for heaven's sake. But when I'm... I've seen you interview him. You seem like a sort of indulgent uncle with him. I mean, you've taken him to task, but you also...

It's almost as if you're the headmaster dealing with the naughtiest boy in the school. Well, there's a bit of that, yeah. But I think he's slightly being found out by this health crisis, you know. He's a prime minister for easier times. And did you encounter, because you went to university and did you encounter people there that you thought? Whankers. Did I meet wankers? Yes. I'm afraid to say I've met wankers everywhere. But they're sort of, you know, born to rule people. That entitlement. Because I remember meeting Jacob Rees-Mogg when I was about 19, I guess. I quite like Moggie.

Do you? Yeah. Well, he knew a friend of mine who was lovely, and I thought, well, he must be nice. But I think I felt so terrified of him because he just seemed like he'd never had a moment self-doubt in his whole life. And there was classical music playing

and these oak panel doors, and I thought you're 19. I know. Born in a double-breasted suit. It wasn't. But then, possibly he was just being authentic and that was him and it was me who was bringing my insecurity into that room

who knows but we're all insecure you're not insecure yeah I am I don't I cannot believe that I never ever walked up Downing Street to go and do an interview with the Prime Minister without thinking what on earth are you doing here you twerb That was me of myself rather than of the Prime Minister at the time. Yeah, well, you say that now.

No, it's true. Did you really feel that? I did. I've always felt that. But the thing is, there is no entitlement. If you believe, as I do, I mean, I'm a Democrat. I believe the votes of those two people sitting on that bench, those two people walking there, even that skateboarder guy. They're all worth exactly the same.

And if you believe that, then you must accept that anybody can become Prime Minister and anyone is entitled to ask them anything. You don't have any greater entitlement because you're a journalist. You just, what you have is a sense of opportunity, that's all. You've got to make yourself do it. They're spaniels, aren't they? They're all Spaniels. Cockapoo's, yeah. Cockapooze, yeah.

Cockapooze, yeah. Are they? Oh, Derek's friendly? He's so, he likes. Yes, he loves other dogs. But he's grown up a little bit. Now he's three years old. I love it when they're puppies and they'll just play.

They go into that paws down position. Yeah. I think you'll find even if when they meet a puppy, they kind of, you live it for a small or something. Are you quite a dog expert? Because my dog is four and it still does that. I think that's worrying. worrying. He still does the play thing.

He's neutered quite young? Yes. Jeremy, I've turned my dog into Peter Pan. That's all right. I'm all in favour of neutering. Derek's neutered, aren't you? You haven't got any bollocks at all. I watched the operation actually.

Of course it was inevitably a female vet and a female veterinary nurse. And they just, you know, they just pop these, do you know, like, you know, like, beans when you've run water over them and they're white and they're just about that sort of size and a bit that sort of shape they just popped out I think I think we'd all be better for all males would be better for being neutered save a lot of trouble think of the mistakes you've made in life look after yourself I know can you

imagine the difference that would have made to Bill Finton's life Jeremy yeah he couldn't keep his trousers on could he? In your book it really struck me that you talked about Clinton, Bill this is, and it seemed like he had a real effect on you. You found him really charismatic, didn't you? He is charismatic. He is charismatic. There's no question he's charismatic. And he's the only man I've ever seen go into a room and every single woman in the room would have dropped their knickers for him. They would. I mean, they just, he just has a magnetic effect upon women. It's very hard, hard to see why.

It's hard to see why. Yes. Because I mean, it's not a physical thing, is it? It's, it's, um, the phrase now, I think, the youth uses big dick energy. Big dick energy, I've not heard that expression before. Why is your producer laughing at you? because I think she possibly thinks it's slightly disrespectful to say that. But I think it's a phrase.

And it's because her generation would probably find it amusing that oldies like us are talking about big Dick energy. It's owning a room, isn't it? Yeah. Whereas I spent most of my life going into a room. I rarely went to parties, but if I did go to a party, I would always end up in the corner stuck with the most boring man in the room and unable to get myself away.

I can't imagine you as someone who has any problems at all saying no or saying to someone, I've got to go now. But you can't say that at a party. I mean, it's rude, isn't it? I've got to go now. Go to bed. So at Cambridge, do you think it was clear that you were, destined for great things. You probably... No, I wouldn't have thought so. Really? Well, I don't think so.

I mean, people, you've got to bear in mind that there are different stages in your life, there are different goals. And the goal at Cambridge, I suppose, was if you could, to get a first. And I always thought the people who got first were very odd people indeed. Very unusual. I certainly wasn't one of them. I got a two-one, which is a sort of of reasonable degree for a journalist, I suppose. First are for academics, I think. And did you enjoy your university experience? I got the impression you did.

I enjoyed it, and I didn't enjoy it. I was very unhappy during times when I was there. And I thought it was actually, you know, these are the happiest days of my life. You could do anything, you could talk to anyone about anything. It was great. It was really wonderful. And why did you not enjoy it? Well, because I've always suffered from depression,

and sometimes it gets you. Whatever stage in life you're at, it just gets you. It would be very easy for me to let it get me now, for example. Not right now this moment, but, you know, because I'm 70 and, you know, what's to come is, a lot shorter than what went before and a lot less interesting. You probably wouldn't have recognised it

as depression though at the time because I think I suffered from that without realising because there was less of a conversation around mental health then. Yeah. Wasn't there? So there was no one being open about it.

Look at that huge bird, Jeremy. I don't like... The crow? Yeah, I don't like crows. No, I don't like them either. My partner's very keen on them. Really? Why does she like them?

Yeah, because they're so ingenious and clever. They are clever. They're horrible things, though. And if you, I mean, I used to live in the country and you'd see them pecking the eyes out of newborn lambs and things. Horrible things. They try and steal small dogs as well. Do they? That'd be a bloody small dog to be taken by a crow.

Well, birds of prey still. Oh yes, but they're things like sea eagles and so. Not they enormous. Owls can as well, I think, sometimes. Can they? Well, I always think of owls as quite benign, so except for a mouse. I love watching owls. Well, you might be able to answer this question.

Go on. You see that equestrian statue there. Let's go and have a look. Is there a significance in how many legs of the horse are on the ground? Yes. But I might get it wrong. It's to do with the top, that leg being raised. So who's that statue of?

I don't know, it looks like some classical geyser. I mean, I was expecting a bit more from Paxo. I'm afraid I can't help you there. I don't know what it is. I think, because they signify things like died in battle. Yes. Don't they? Or so they say.

What do you think of that dog, Jeremy? I think it's a silly dog. I'm glad I didn't bring Ray. Is Ray like that? No. Ray's hairier and more feral. More feral? Is he bigger than that?

Yes, but then I think it's 70% hair with Ray. Yeah. This man is naked on the horse. Yeah, that would be very uncomfortable. There's no one to take you tackle at all. This is the name of the sculptor. I'm not sure what... Physical energy.

Oh, it's by what? Oh, okay. Have you ever been to the Watts Gallery down in... Do you know, I haven't been there? Is that it? Down in Surrey, it's near, it's Godalming. You're very different to how I imagine, you know. Really? Mm.

Is that good or bad? I think you're far less terrifying than people make you out to be. I don't know why they would do that. That's just bollocks. I do. Because I think your job necessarily involved seeing you in a combat situation to a degree. So that became your persona.

It's like if you only saw a general in a war situation every day. He's not like that at home or with his friends. No. Do you think it's harder to be honest? I'm not sure it is. It's the only way I can live is just to be sort of frank. Oh no Does that make you broody, Jeremy, seeing little kids?

No. No, I know what comes with them. What's that? Nappies and all the rest of it. Does it make you broody? No, I forgot to have children. I'm jealous that you did all that. It's a good thing to do, isn't it?

We're discussing whether your baby makes us broody. I've said it doesn't because I know what goes with it. Do you want to sit down at any point, by the way? Do you want me to sit down? I'll do whatever you like. He's so cooperative, Jeremy. You know what I hadn't anticipated. Do you get people meeting you off and saying, I thought you'd be scary? I was scared of you.

I have had that happen, yes. How do you feel about that? Well, I can't be responsible for how one comes across. I just, my strong conviction is that if you're going to take the money for doing job you should do the job and that involves asking this asking treating everyone equally if you can asking the questions that people want to see asked i'm interested to know when you left cambridge and you joined the bbc i think you would have been there probably my dad might have been there when you were

i think he was i think he was a sort of person i was very scared of he seemed to what was he on late night line up Late night line-up, yeah, which was this sort of art show. Yeah, they were all jolly clever on that. Well, you were foreign correspondent for a while. No, I mean, I went to lots of foreign places, but I was never formally... I was never formally based in a foreign place. You're a war reporter, though. I did do a lot of that, yeah.

How did you find that experience? Terrifying. Really? Yes. And I thought that the... People who could cope with it and repeatedly do it had such control of their emotions or such lack of imagination. Fear is a product of the imagination.

And you think what might happen. Look, there's a bench over there. Should we head for that? Oh, let's go and sit there. How long does this go on for, for heaven's sake? Not long. Not long, Jeremy. Did anyone ever call you Jezer?

Oh yeah. How do you feel about that? I like it. Who calls you Jezer? Friends. Hey Jezer, what do you think about this? So... It started off with the son of a...

The son of a good friend. Robert Harris is a good friend, the author. Jezer, let's find another bench. Come on. It's too windy there. Okay. We really missed you as a nation. Oh, you make it sense if I'm dead. Well, you've been absent from...

I have, but, you know, the thing is, I think what's your persona non grata, as I think I am? Are you? That's it. Why are you persona non grotto? I don't know. With who? Have you, I mean, have you heard the way some of these stupid programs are done now?

People just not asking even obvious. questions. Why did you leave news night? I'd done it a long time and I thought it was time to make a move. Derek, you're not supposed to be over there. Did you feel any regret afterwards? No. I think the real the real bugger about life is you've got to live it looking forwards. Yes. But you can only understand it looking backwards and to look backwards and think, oh, I wish I was still doing that. It's just stupid.

Yes, I see that. I do think there is no one quite like you. I certainly feel politically in the last few years. It felt like, you know how Gary Lineker in the, whenever I'm watching England, I feel I need Garry Linneka. Yeah, yeah. Penalty shootout.

I agree with you. I felt that with you. I felt I wanted the... Well, you are sweet. Um, thank you. I will, I'll treasure that. Do you find yourself shouting at the TV though when you see someone being interviewed and think... Yes, I do. You've got him in the palm of you, just ask him this.

Yeah. Do you? Oh, for heaven's sake, what kind of question's that? And then I switch it off. But I don't really, I don't really watch news night. It's too... My idea of a good time is to be in bed by Hopper. 10. Can we sit on this? We can, but is it comfortable? You're a bit of a short ass,

aren't you? You can't get up here. We don't say short ass now. Don't we? What do we say? I'm just going to say a little bit shorter than you. You are a bit shorter. Did you feel then Jeremy when like I said when you were doing those interviews and you'd go into interview David Cameron or Ed Miliband, would you feel nerves? Because it never came across. Of course, my one of feel nerves you only a fool wouldn't feel nerves and all that business of who on earth do you think you are to be doing this is nerves but you've got if you take the money you've got to do it and i have no time for these people who just pull the punches all the time so i enjoyed it but i you know

we'll see what happens i as i say i'm i've this is the third The third time I've mentioned it now. I'm 70 years old. I don't know how much longer this is going to go on. Do you feel happier than when you were younger? Life's less manic. Life's less manic, but and actually, do you know that Brian Patton poem,

20, it would have been best to have arrived, grinning and drunk. Instead, one arrives with nothing worked out, prepared or accomplished. And actually, the same thing is true about being any age, really. If you're going to work it out, well, you're probably insufferable. But you never work it out. Yeah. You're still just fighting the good fight. How do you manage your depression?

I don't really. Sometimes it overwhelms me, but I take medication. And I'd like most people, I think, when I was in the initial acute phase of it, I did it with a combination of CBT and drugs. And I think that's pretty common. But I suppose I just... I just keep... I immersed myself in things. I didn't need to start this book about the English Civil War, you know,

And I just suddenly thought, that's interesting. And I realized that there was an awful lot I didn't know. And that's the reason I've always written books to find things out. And the same thing was true with documentaries and interviews and so on. You want to find things out. But that helps a lot. Night times can be hard. I found. Nighttime's going to be very hard. But a sleeping pill helps.

Oh, really? I've never had a sleeping pill. You've never had one. No. What is wrong with you? So if you can't sleep, what do you do? I would be frightened to take a sleeping pill. Why? I think I would just, my mind goes to sort of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe. I think I'm quite an extreme person. Oh, I see. I can't answer. I can't answer that. I mean, I can, I can increase the dosage and lower the dosage. And so I think if you feel uncomfortable about that, you shouldn't do it. It's probably, you're probably wise. Does Derek help with mental health? I bet he does. Derek? Oh yes. I spend most of the day by myself if I'm writing and, you know, having to take him out three times a day is

really good. Really, really good. And you talk to people and they're almost always nice. Even if they're slightly scared of the dog. Some people, Derek, how could anyone be scared of you, Derek? They might be scared of you, Jeremy.

Maybe. Are you an extrovert or an introvert? I don't know. I would have said introvert. I'm not sure I found. it a terribly helpful. I mean, putting on a performance. Well, this isn't a performance.

This is just a conversation, but if we had to put on a performance, I could do it, but I, it wouldn't come naturally to me. So if you were doing the Graham Norton show, for example, which you have done, and that's very much more a gig, isn't it?

You're being Paxman. People come out with their prepared lines. It's not for me. Is it not? No, I've done it, but I've done it to get it over and done with. And I enjoyed it. I mean, he's a nice fellow, Graham Norton. Most people are, you know.

That's one of my big lessons in life. Really? Yeah. Along with people will take you at your own estimation of yourself and they will take you, they'll react to you as you deal with them. So if you're nice to them, they'll be nice to you by and large. And if you're hostile to them, they'll be hostile back. But there are ways of doing things.

You can ask the most, I had to talk yesterday to Brian Cox and I was asking him a number of questions about his incoherent politics. and I found myself saying to him, look, we don't need to take this from you sitting there in the northern United States opining about the fate of Britain and Scotland. And he got really shirty. Really? Yeah.

But that's fair enough. He's not... Whoops. I've dropped my microphone, sorry. Put your fluffy back on. Put my fluffy back on. But then you had to be hostile. As I say, that was your job was to be hostile.

So I wonder if, would you ever meet, say Tony Blair, I always got the impression when I saw you interview him that you had a sort of respect for him as a person because he was always prepped. He was very competent in terms of the job. And he knew what you wanted. And he always answered questions properly, even if he didn't know the answer.

But I sometimes would feel. I bet you guys would get on. Did you ever feel, oh, I've got to do this thing now. I've got to grill you, and I'd quite like to just chat with you. Did I get on with him? I think he was all right. I don't have... I quite liked him, actually.

I think he was a proper... He was a proper Prime Minister. And I tell you what was really good about him. One time we had to do three interviews back to back, and it was on a Thursday. And it was at the time still when there was Prime Minister's questions on a Tuesday and Thursday. And he also was having lunch with the Czech Prime Minister and having breakfast with the Canadian foreign minister. And we got into the first interview at half past ten or something.

And I gave a bit of a hard time about Afghanistan. And he said, well, I can tell you that we have cut the... heroin supply from Afghanistan by three quarters. And at that point, Alistair Campbell, who was sitting on the floor in the corner of the room, coughed and shuffled. And I said, Alistair, you can't do this. You can't go around interrupting interviews. And he said, no, it's just the Prime Minister's misremembered.

It's two-thirds. And Blair said, it said three-quarters in the brief. And Blair was right. I thought it was really, the command of deal. detail he had was very, very impressive, as well as the willingness to adapt to all sorts of different social and political situations. So I think he was quite impressive, really. There was a moment, and you actually talk about this in your book, when you interviewed Gordon Brown, and I got the sense it was one of the, not regret so much, but you felt you

were quite hard on him. I was hard on him. It was a question I think, about why people didn't like him. You said, why don't people like? Yeah, and he said, you're a very nice guy, Jeremy. It was a horrible thing to say. It was an absolutely horrible thing to say, and I wish I hadn't said it, but there we are, I did. How would you have rephrased it?

You can't keep on having platonic or theoretical interviews with people. You can only do what you can do at the time. And I think that's true of life generally. That's very healthy because I think I would I spend far too much time having conversations in my head about what I would have said to people. You can't do that. You can't do that. Do you not think back to arguments you had 10 years ago and think, oh, I wish I've come up with a real Espri de Scali singer? No, I never think back to the disputes I had 10 years ago.

What a pointless thing to do? You don't do that, do you, Emily? I really do. Really well, that is an absolute waste of time. Don't do it. Don't do it. You'll never gain anything from it. This is why I think you're good on university challenge

because to me you represent the university experience in microcosm. In 30 minutes, that's what it is. You arrive a little bit cocky, thinking you know all the answers, and you get it gently knocked out of you by the end by a wiser person. Well, I like University Challenge, not for that reason, but I like it because, I like it for two reasons. I like it because it gives the lie to the daily male stereotype about young people not knowing anything or caring about anything. And they know amazing things. Then the other reason, Derek, come here.

Leave that poor little dog alone. He's going, hmm, lunch. And the other reason is that it's. It's old-fashioned family viewing. You know, people sit down and they watch it, they watch it with their children, they watch it with their parents, and the males play the females,

the oldies play the youngsters. Yeah. I like that. Sooner or later, Sammy Ditt will take it off, I suppose. But that's life, isn't it? Tell me, are you a strict dad? A strict dad? No.

Are you not? No, I'm a pushover. Yes, I can sort of see that. With my parents, you think, and because I haven't had kids myself, when I look back at how they did, in terms of the job they didn't, I don't know if you feel this with your dad, but I realised how young they were and how clueless. Do you feel more sympathy for your dad now? Because I know he's challenging your child.

I think I do feel more sympathy for him now. And I wish there are lots of things I wish I could say to him. but I suppose that's a lesson, isn't it? If you're being an old fart passing on information to, or life lessons for others. Yeah. There will come a point where you can't say it. So say it while you can.

Because your dad moved to the other side of the world. Yeah, he ended up in New Zealand, in fact. So did my dad. It's hard not to take it personally when they do that. Yeah. You went over there and I sensed you got a form of closure by going over to sort of... That was when he was in Queensland

in Australia, yeah. I suppose so, yes. But I think there were a lot of unresolved issues there. Do you cry? Are you a crier, Jeremy? Yeah. When did you last cry? I cried at something on television

not so long ago. I can't remember what it was. Did you? Yeah. And I love that you were open about having therapy because I think the more men that talk about that, the better. Frank's had it, hasn't he? No, Frank. Yes, Frank has had it. He had sort of relationship therapy, as he calls it.

But he's very open to that sort of thing. Was that, is that relationship therapy? Is that where you both have to turn up? Yeah. That sounds really grim. I tell you when I stopped, when I stopped. when I stopped doing it was when I was going down to see this woman

and I thought to myself what on earth are we going to talk about today and I thought this is pointless I'm just and going up the stairs I was desperately wrecking my brains to think of things I could bring to the table and it rather it seemed a absolute waste of time I think not wanting to be liked is a superpower

Yeah, I mean wanting to be liked is It's rather pointless I mean people either will like you or not like you On the basis of who you are Hmm It's rather silly to want to be liked Are you very disciplined? You have quite a work ethic, don't you?

I do have quite a work ethic I work, you know, when I'm writing a book I work on it 365 days a year I like to have an afternoon kip. Oh, I love an afternoon, Matt. It's such an old person's thing, but it's brilliant. In my ideal world, every office would have a hammock in it. And you like fishing?

I love fishing, yeah. Sell me fishing, because I think I'd quite enjoy it. Well, where do we start? I mean, I go fly fishing, which is... What you're trying to do is to replicate the flies which hatch on the bottom of the river or on reeds or rocks or whatever. Swim to the surface and when they get to the surface they take off and they trout sort of feed on them there. So it's all about putting this tiny, tiny, tiny confection of wool and thread and fess. and things, and this tiny confection, just dropping it on the water so in such a way as the

trout will believe it's a fly. So it's, you can't go crashing about and that's a good thing, so you just have to insert yourself into the environment quietly. That's interesting. And that's very, wonderful things then happen around you. You know, I've seen about two pairs of otters this year. It's a bit of mind games with the fish. Yeah, yeah.

To beat something that has a brain the size of a pea. I mean, what a stupid ambition. Do you have a lifetime supply of pants? I suspect you never have to buy any again. Pants? Yes. Because you famously... Oh God, not the bloody pants story again.

You're desperate. Do you know, Jeremy, that's not the first time I've heard that. But I didn't think it would come from you. I thought you were better than that. It was all true. I mean, it was exactly as I had described it. We were in the changing room at the gym, and my pants fell apart. And I said to, sorry about the dog.

He won't hurt you. Anyway, I said to everyone in the, there were Marks and Sparks pants. And I, this is very, because I can tell you my solutions of the problem. There were Marks and Sparks' pants. And I said to, I said, hey chaps, have you noticed that Marks and Sparks' pants aren't as good as they used to be? And they all said there was a problem with them going funny. And I didn't think anything more of it until I realized that I had. no idea how old the pants were. You know, the point is that everything has a finite life.

Yeah. And you should know. They're not designed to last forever. What makes you laugh, Jeremy? Derek makes me laugh. Really? Yeah. Do you watch comedy at all? I do, actually. Which ones do you like? Um, that's not cancelled. I've just, I've just finished a binge-wash. of modern family. Of course, as time goes by you identify with different people in it. And I now identify with Jay, the old man. I love it. Who the other day when I saw it? So good.

They had one of those Alexa things in the kitchen. Oh yeah. And he said, where's the coffee pot talking to me? It was pretty funny. Good gag. Look, there's that stupid dog with the with the with the the jacket on again. Jeremy, let's go to the ice cream van.

Do let's go to the ice cream van. Why don't I buy you an ice cream? I'd love an ice cream. It's on me. I'd like an ice cream, please. What type? I'd like, oh, I'm so sorry, I'd like a single 99, please. No, that's fine, thanks.

Can I have the same? Derry. He's not supposed to have chocolate. That's Jeremy's. Thank you very much. Do you not used to look in the mirror and think, I'm a good-looking man? Never, no. No, I used to be told I looked like a horse.

You never worried about your looks. I never paid much attention to them. He's not. That's more and more part of TV, though, isn't it now? It's a very trivial occupation. What is? Television. Television.

Do you think so? The way things have been... I do sound like an old fart now but everything has been sacrificed for accessibility. Which is why I think University Challenge stands out because the questions are genuinely quite hard. They've got harder and they get harder as a series goes on.

I know, but Jezza, sometimes I'm watching and it's when you say, it's Little Dorrit, everyone knows that. terrifies me. It's not a matter of life and death, is it? It's only a bloody stupid quiz. Do you let Derek on the bed? Yep. I let Raymond on the bed. Some people are really shocked by that. Why? We never used to when I was growing up. The dogs were never allowed upstairs. But I don't care. I think some people think you have to have this boundaries with dogs so that they know, who's in control.

How could you not have Derek on the bed? Look at him. He really loves you, Jeremy, doesn't he? Well, I don't know. Do you love me, Derek, or do you just love the ice cream? I think you like the ice cream, don't you? Jeremy, do you have a dog voice? A dog voice?

Can I show you mine? Good boy, baby. You good boy! You good boy! Everyone does a dog voice. You have one with Derek? At Derek? I do one when he's wandering around about to do something stupid.

Oh, that looks like a was nest. I think I just go and stick my nose in it. I should let your daddy go soon. A really nice man, Jeremy. Well, you're a sweetie. I think he's a start of a beautiful friendship. I do dog walking. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that

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