Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - John Robins (Part Two)

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

In part two of Emily and Ray’s walk with the wonderful John Robins, the conversation carries on with more honesty, humour and great storytelling.If you haven’t already, do catch up on part one. And be sure to pre-order John’s brilliant memoir Thirst: 12 Drinks That Changed My Life, which is out on May 7th.Follow Emily:Instagram X Walking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich JarmanArtwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of Walking the Dog with the wonderful John Robbins. Do, by the way, pre-order a copy of John's absolutely brilliant memoir, First, 12 drinks that changed my life, which is out on May the 7th. I really hope you enjoy part two of our walk and do give us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's John and Rewe. I get the impression, John. You were pretty academic, weren't you? Like, you were a good student.

Yeah, I was... very keen to please people. Do you think that's what motivated you to be? I mean, you're obviously bright, a bright kid, but... Well, my dad was like a sort of mega brain. Was he? And my mum was very into literature. And I think I got a little bit of each.

So I loved poetry and drama and reading. But I could also sort of like to GCSE level be impressive. with sort of maths and science and stuff. So I was sort of across the board quite bright. But then I decided to go the more literary route because I sort of started to butt up against things I couldn't quite get my head around. Yeah.

And could still understand the poetry and novels. And so I studied English and then I came across people who were like genuinely you know geniuses and i was like wow it doesn't feel like i'm one of them feels like i'm quite keen on getting shit faced and playing scrabble and what was your social role just friendship-wise were you were you popular um not no no i mean secondary school that was basically the device are you popular or not, and I was never in the popular set. I think I made quite a confusing proposition

because I was like one of the squares who got high grades, but I also smoked cigarettes and I... A bit velvet jacket, got into pulp in the mid-90s. I know you, I know who you are, yeah. Yeah, and it wasn't until I got to sixth form where it was like, oh, there's sort of other people who are a bit alternative, a bit eccentric,

who were kind of into what they're into and don't have to apologise for that or get the shit kicked out of them for that. So it was when I went to sixth form and I met my friend Robin, who's in the year above, that I found my tribe really. And that tribe didn't all look the same

like all the other tribes because, you know, there were two Goths, there was someone who was really into Quentin Tarantino, there was someone who was really into drawing, someone who's really into hip-hop, and we were kind of all of the I guess all the people on the fringes of everything else like came together and was comedy by this stage in your life was it a currency for you yeah I was I mean you knew you were funny um I don't know whether I would have thought of myself as funny but I comedy was like my

I guess alongside music was my passion so I would I would video to tape Reeves and Mortimer and I would watch it and then in the morning I would watch it to learn all of the lines because I knew that my friend George would have done the same and then the next day in like science class we would do the routines off of Reeves and Mortimer or I knew all of the I knew all of the bottom and in drama me and my friend Ben whenever there was like you had to devise your own piece we would just do scenes from bottom and then when I discovered Alan Partridge you in the day-to-day. That was, and the whole world exploded.

Yeah. And someone, my friend Robbins said the other day, we're talking about like growing up in the late 90s and going to uni and he made a really good point that if you were 17 or 18, Chris Morris was almost too powerful. It was like too much. You couldn't, you didn't quite know what to do with it. Yeah. So you would sort of play around.

of play around with the language of Chris Morris, but without any of the sort of heft, the sort of intellectual heft behind it. So, you know, you would sort of thought it was about being offensive, but it wasn't really being offensive, or is it being ironic? It's not really being ironic, but we just sort of gorged on this new lexicon of...

Yeah. Of those writers and those performers. And then when I went to uni, I was... And this was Oxford, you one. went to and you I want to touch briefly on your your gap year because it's significant your gap year isn't it wasn't it wasn't really a gap year I just didn't get into Oxford the first time but it took a lot of balls that you didn't get in you were disappointed inevitably and then you thought fuck it I'm

gonna apply again yeah that's quite unusual job it is I go I don't quite know what part of me made that decision really I hadn't really got in anywhere else I'd been turned down by Bristol and East Anglia creative writing course. I don't know the only place I'd applied to was UCL in London. I didn't want to go to London. So it's kind of the only option. But I was just so desperate to be there because Robin was there. I'd been for interviews and just absolutely loved it.

Yeah. I just had to be there. So that's as a single-mindedness which I kind of respected away. I think I would have thought, and I did actually. I didn't get into Oxford and I was like, oh my God, I'm at never go there again, how embarrassing that I even thought I could be part of that and I'm not clever enough. Whereas I, so like younger me has a lot of respect for younger youth. Oh, thank you. I sort of think, no, you thought, no, I can give this a go. Why not? But also like, imagine what

my mum must have been thinking. I mean, maybe she thought, oh, well, you know, he'll be around for another year that I like that. But to not go, no, you need to go to the one university that's accepted you. It's like, oh yeah, sure, yeah, just apply again next year. I honestly think if I hadn't got in the next year, I would have applied again the year after, I just kept going. But that is, I love that. That kind of tenacity is fascinating to me. Well, single-mindedness is what it is that you had, that's very goal-oriented, isn't it? That's very... Well, I think I'd been a few times to visit Robin, and if you, you know, imagine your friend who you know from Sixth Form, you've been to a few house parties with you go and visit them they've got their own room

there's a bar they can drink as much as they want as there's just loads of cool people there it's like if you fall in love with a house you know if you're looking for a house or a person there's just no other option yeah i get to go there so in your gap year you had a little bit of a problem with gambling you discovered yeah and i think you it's a important that you include that in your book because really kind of shocked me how easy it was to spiral for you and do you think that comes you know you were saying at one point you were teenager weren't you just working in Virgin Megastore or wherever it was or and you owed like five grand and it was just

pub fruit machines yeah and scratch cards and things do you does that suggest then John that you do have a sort of genetic predisposition for addiction per se? I don't know that there is, there's definitely a genetic predisposition for alcoholism. Yeah. Just in terms of the way that your body metabolizes alcohol. That's not to say that every single person who got a problem with alcohol has that,

but it does exist. Yeah. I don't know if you, I don't know if there's like an addict gene. but I think I I think that's probably the gambling is more where the the sort of nurture side it comes in just because I was so desperate to just escape myself right I just was I mean I was so lonely I was so depressed I mean I just there wasn't a lot all my friends had moved away home wasn't ideal is that why people gambled John is it escape basically

I think it is a way of completely switching off your brain. I mean, you know, anyone who's ever looked up from a silly little iPhone game and thought, where did the last hour go? You know, it is, or Instagram or whatever. TikTok, yeah. And there is something comforting about not thinking, especially if you're the sort of person who thinks a lot. Right. And there's also a comfort in.

not feeling but it's just that that iPhone game costs you like all the money you have and that's where it's and time it can just be so catastrophic I'm very lucky that it just I'm in a sense lucky it was so intense so quickly and you went to I went to Gamblers Anonymous in Bristol But that's young to have awareness about that, John, that you needed... I was the thing I was the youngest person there by 20 years. Really? But this was just when... This was before gambling was online.

So you're talking all men, all horses they were gambling on. And I guess fruit machines were just becoming like... You didn't have those mad slot machines like you do now with the computer displays and... you know, they've described them as the fixed odds betting terminals as like the crack of gambling. Really? Then none of that existed. So it was really, if you wanted to gamble in the 90s, it was a fruit machine in a pub, horses or maybe bingo.

And then the National Lottery started and scratch cards and stuff. So anyway, it was just awful. And, ugh, worst feeling. The worst feeling. So yeah, I went to Gamblers Anonymous and that helped. And... Do you think looking back, if you'd have gone, you know, because obviously the results of gambling are more... When you're young, it's more apparent, isn't it?

Shit, I've got no money. Yeah. But with alcohol, that's harder to see at the time. So do you think if you'd have gone to an AA meeting, it would have been, you know, that's something that you could, you... that's something that you could have had a similar experience where you thought, what am I doing? I didn't think I had a problem with alcohol. Right. Like, when you're gambling every day and you can't stop thinking about it and you've got no money left,

eventually you cannot avoid the fact that... It's consequences. I just kept thinking about just being on the motorway driving my car into one of those big bridge pillars. Really? So it's easier to go, don't seem to be anywhere. else doing this. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not like you're going out to the pub on a Friday and everyone is glued to a fruit machine. And there would be things like where I'd go out with friends and they'd move on to the next pub, but I would still be playing. So, you know,

with this sort of really sad look in their eye, they were just like, John, we're going. And they'd go. And I'd stay because I'd be like, this one's paying out. This one, I'd just need another like 10 quid. And has anyone got any money? And whereas with booze, you can just everyone's getting hammered. Right. And it wasn't... And also your hangover wears off, which it doesn't with gambling.

The debt doesn't go away. So... But I did have periods of sobriety. I stopped when I started doing comedy. I stopped for a year and a half. About eight years later... No, about four years later, I stopped again. So it kept getting bad

and I kept thinking, you need to have a break or you need to, like, stop this for a while. But even then I didn't think it was an issue. I just always thought, well, you've done that, so you'll be all right now. Well, after you graduated, you from Oxford, you ended up back in Bristol eventually, and you were sharing a flat, and I love this period in your life, John Richardson and Russell Howard.

Yeah. I imagine that was a great flat to be around. It was. I imagine it was a very funny flat. It was, it really was. And I just learnt so much about, not just about being funny, but about how comedy worked, like the idea that this could actually be a job. Yeah. And if it was a job, what was the progression? And it was useful that at that time, so this would have been about 2007, like I was completely new, like unpaid middle spot. John Richardson was like comparing and opening gigs and Russell was closing. So there was like the ladder was there before me.

So I was like, well, if I want to do what John does, I need to do what John does. And then if I want to do what Russell does, I need to do what Russell does. So I can sort of go up this ladder. And, you know, if there's a gig John can't do, he might suggest me. If there's a gig Russell can't do, you might suggest John. So it was a sort of boot camp, really. And it's significant, I think, that you stopped. I feel like around that period, and again,

it's one of those things you can only really see in hindsight. And I had the benefit of reading your book, so I had an awful lot of, I had nothing but hindsight. Well, I'm like, I'm going, John, it's all going really well for you. This is the point. Can you make the connection? You stopped drinking. you're suddenly following the path you were meant to. You're a comic now and it's going brilliantly.

Yeah, but that's how an alcoholic's brain works. Things are going really well. You've beaten it. You can start drinking again. It's, you know, and I think there's an analogy I use in the book. It's like it's helpful to think of alcoholism as an allergy to alcohol because no one who is allergic to peanuts, like if you're your kid is allergic to peanuts, you don't go, well, it's been a year now, so we can probably try them again. Or if you're allergic to shellfish, you don't go, I haven't had, like, yeah, it's on the menu tonight, I haven't had it for a year, so I'll probably be okay. I understand that now that any time I consume alcohol, I will end up at some point lying on the floor, crying or singing really loud. Like, life will go wrong if I drink again.

Yeah. So I now know that. It's not like, well, you've had three and a half years off or, you know, your skin's better or works going well now so you can relax and drink. I now know that it's going well because I've not had a drink and my head is clearer and I feel less ashamed and I feel much more peaceful. You seem very peaceful. I'm mega peaceful sometimes. But also it's more like no one ever makes a change and then is fine forever, but it becomes a daily practice of, like I said, you know, I still wake up and open my phone and get frightened and annoyed and angry about the world. But I have all these pressure releases now where I can remind myself of various things.

Like I can come and walk here or I can go for a run or I can write a bit. about it or I can meditate, I can focus on my breathing, I can call people, I can go to a 12-step meeting. I've got a million things now that can bring me back to a place of peace. Whereas if you're drinking every day, it's just never, it's just so corrosive to your interior landscape and your thoughts and how you are around people and you become so, you become the sort of star of the film of your own life where you're the most important person and yet everyone's out to get you and if only they would listen and it's just exhausting. It's so much better to just be walking along here and go, I don't matter at all, like at all. So immediately even just saying that out

loud, I feel more peaceful. I don't matter. It doesn't matter if the rest of the day goes to shit. If I don't reply to any emails, well, that's maybe not the takeaway. I still need to get my emails reply to but like if all of my projects go wrong yeah it doesn't matter you know as long as I'm as much as it's possible to be I'm nice to work with and I'm respectful of people it then it doesn't matter well again it's that relinquishing attachment isn't it as well to things and situations and things we can control and you talk that one thing that I thought was very powerful in the book was when you talk about when you you started drinking again when you were living with Russell Howard and John Richardson. And why I think this was very powerful is the insignificance of that moment when you started

drinking. It wasn't a big reason. It wasn't, hey, I've won a comedy award or this, that and the other. It was literally just John had cooked a lamb. There was a bottle of wine. And you suddenly thought, yeah, I'm going to have a drink. Yeah. And as you say, it's not John's Walt. that he cooked a nice lamb. But I can sort of see, I think that, I think it was important you mentioned that because you sort of see sometimes when you haven't had experience of alcoholism yourself,

it feels like it's just these pockets of drama all the time when actually there was something about that, it's so insignificant and kind of quite banat, it's just like, oh, there's just a lamb and the wines on the table, that you broke that sobriety for kind of no reason, I suppose.

Yeah. Well, it look great. I can honestly see it now. But it's so, I mean, a lot of this stuff is, you know, often when people talk about their experience of alcoholism, it's like, you know, I crashed my car and I went to prison and my wife left me and, you know, I lost my kids and that does happen and that is a big part of it. But those are all exterior symptoms.

Right. You know, that's, if you live alone for 10 years, as a limit to the amount of damage you can do, can't fall off the floor. You know what I mean? I used to say that to myself a lot. You can't fall off the floor. And I'd wake up and I'd have this,

and I'd check my phone, you haven't texted anyone, you haven't emailed anyone, you haven't tweeted anything. Okay, we're safe. You got through it. I'm right. Damage limitation. Whereas, you know, it's not like I'd, you know the kids were stepping over my passed out body and my wife was packing up her bags and

i hadn't paid the mortgage for three months it's like you know if you're working in comedy and live on your own and don't have kids you're not going to run out of money on booth yeah because bottle of vodka's 10 quid and i suppose it was easier to navigate with your career in some ways it was easier to because you didn't have those consequences that you would have if you worked in a job where you had to be there at eight every morning and I mean I did when I did have those jobs

so I got sacked from deal or no deal for throwing up in all Edmonds's toilet which I didn't actually get to go in that's in a footnote in the book but I Jesus I was living in a house with seven people and me and one of the girls in the house for some reason stayed up and drank a bottle of Jack Daniels

until four in the morning. And I had to be at deal or no deal. Were you doing the warm-up? Yeah. So I hadn't slept. I had passed out from, say, half four till 8.30. Yeah. I then got in my car.

I would have been out of my skull drunk. But something about having woken up makes you think, I'm all right to drive, which is madness. And turned up down on the way I bought from a news agent, two litres of apple juice, necked that in my car, got there, ran straight into Noel Edmonds's toilet, threw up. Obviously, just a complete mess. But because I was 26, like, ah, so I didn't get asked back. So like, had, exactly, I wouldn't have lasted a week in a, like an office job with responsibility. How do you feel now in that do you think,

people did say in the industry, it's a small industry, do you think people were saying, oh, John drinks or John, do you think that was, I mean, I never heard it? I know, I don't think so because, you know, it's such a solitary job. And I never drank. That's true. I never drank. If I was driving to a gig, I never drank. Yeah. Because it was always the reward for getting through it and getting home. So I'd. And you'd turn up and do, say, the radio and you would just do that like a normal. and you know you were sober and professional so you talk about how hungover you were yeah or i mean drink on stage a lot there's a few recordings that i can't really listen back to but and then edinburgh where everyone's hammered yeah that's a lie not everyone is but everyone i was hanging around with

was drinking a lot it's much more it's normalized you know you know if your job starts at seven in the evening yeah and maybe you're driving for a few hours to get there and getting back at two in the morning. Like, I've had very few hangovers that weren't manageable by like the afternoon. So, but you just get into this cycle of like, just desperately try not to drop the ball. If I can get through this, if I can get enough laughs, if I can get, you know, get the acts on, get off, get home for last orders. Then you get into this bizarre, like, hamster wheel of drinking, getting hungover. dealing with a hangover, getting to work, doing the minimum amount to survive, get home, drink. And it's just that.

And then eventually, like, as you get a bit older, Ray, I'll pick you up. That hangover begins to... Have to love the kites, Ray. You know, they see them as prey sometimes. Do they? Yeah, the small dogs. Why we lose Ray to a kite?

Way, there's kites here. Catherine Ryan saw it once in Canada. I do sort of want to see it. Just as I was thinking, what a thoroughly lovely... What a thoroughly lovely individual. It's a bird carried railway. So much good work on himself. I mean, they'd drop him eventually.

John, take that back. He'd sort of... His hair would... He'd billow out like one of those Victorian ladies with their dresses who jumps and just floats down. John has just said he wants the kite to pick you up. What do you think? He'll give you such an evil look, John. Yeah, I think...

But, you know, I got to 40 and it was like, God, like, every relationship I've had has failed. I think I'm a nice person, but I sort of hate myself and I want to drink myself to death. That doesn't feel like where I should be at 40 with all this great stuff in my life. and I would just woke up one night and just it was like I'd run out of energy fighting it when did you have your last drink John? 6th of November 22. Wow well done I think something people don't and I didn't understand is how much of your life you spend fighting the urge to drink

Yeah. I think I always thought alcoholics were people who just never stopped. You just drank all the time they were awake. But it's always trying to eke out an extra hour before you start or drink a bit less or don't ruin the day or... I can see how that would also have an impact on relationships. Oh God, yeah. Because that's...

Is that perhaps one of the hardest things about living with an addicts is that there's three of you in that relationship, you know? And you know, you're never fully present because you're always, well, I was never, well, no, I'm being a bit harder myself there. There were moments where I was more concerned about alcohol, how I was going to drink it, when I was going to drink it, what alcohol was going to be there, than I was about just being around, being nice, being happy, being sociable, being the kind of person you might want to spend your life with. You also strike me as quite a planner. Yeah, a big time. I've seen your brilliant stand-up, which won the stand-up show The Darkness of Robbins, which won the Edinburgh Comedy Award in, was it 2017?

Yeah, 2017. And you really touch on your obsession with, I suppose, routine and process, and I get that sense. And no, I'm not about to say you're autistic, because I've heard you discussing this with Piano Belli. And he doesn't think you are, by the way. No, well, I'm not. But people tell you, it's weird how people sometimes will say,

I think you're this now. Oh man, I mean, you people love to diagnose strangers on Instagram. I remember like, I think people definitely do it from a good place. Yeah. But especially like women in my industry constantly getting like, promise me you'll get your thyroid checked. Who the fuck do you think you are? Yeah.

Like what a horrible takeaway. from the video you've put up is someone going, there's something dreadfully wrong with you. But no, I'm not autistic, but I have. But the processing is just interesting because I can see how that becomes another thing. You're like, you're managing the alcohol as well. You're like, right, well, if I just,

if I start drinking now at five, then I can get some reserves in before I go out at seven. You're spreadsheeting, your intake in a way. I was never. someone who was just like, I'll drink anything and everything type of person. It had to be the right alcohol at the right time. Right. Go to John.

But the worst company I was was when I wasn't, like if I had to have a night off, you know, say we're going on holiday and I'm driving at the airport at five in the morning and so I'm trying desperately not to drink the night before, then I'm just a complete asshole for a day. Are you? And, you know, if I'm the one driving to your friend's party and I sort of say, I'll drive and I won't drink, then it's like, oh, you're with grumpy Mr. Quiet fucking intense man who gives monosyllabic answers to all of your friends who's meeting for the first

time because he's thinking, don't drink, just don't drink, don't drink tonight, how are you going to get through tonight? So you talk about this dry drunk phenomenon, I suppose. And is that to do with when people perhaps don't get ongoing help after giving up alcohol? Yeah, I think it probably comes down to what you mean by sobriety. Right. And for me, sobriety is different to not drinking because there were nights and, you know, periods, dry January's when I didn't drink. when I was drinking, if you see what I mean.

Yeah. And I was a nightmare. Why are you a nightmare? Because the personality traits of an alcoholic are very different to what someone is like when they're drunk. Like everyone is a nightmare when they're drunk. Okay. An alcoholic is a nightmare when they're not drunk.

Why? Because they don't have a way of coping with life. And that's why they drink. Yeah. And if I had to list all of my, the things that alcohol made me, it wouldn't be sloppy, offensive, rude, disorganized. Those are things that drunk happens when you drink too much. The personality traits that alcohol brought out in me

were self-centered, self-pitying, controlling, impatient, intolerant, envious, jealous, arrogant. Those aren't things that happen when I drank. Those are things that happened when I didn't drink. And so did you drink then because you felt uncomfortable about those qualities? No, I drank to switch my head off.

Those personality traits I've described are the result of using alcohol every day of your life. And if you take away the alcohol, you're left with all of those things, but with nothing to do to sort of manage them. Make it out them. So if you just stop drinking and white knuckle the rest of your life, like, don't drink, don't drink, don't drink,

you're going to be worse to be around than if you're drinking. And, you know, anyone who's lived with an alcoholic will have had moments when they've thought, fucking hell, just have a drink. Like, I just need this tension to go. I just need this evening to be easy. And I'll deal with, you know, if you're throwing up or passing, out or no use tomorrow, just shut up or start talking because you're completely closed down.

And one of the main personality traits I had that I see sometimes in people who have just stopped drinking is their own self-importance. Like I am the star of the world. Anything you say is a judgment about me, whether it is nothing to do with me or not. If I don't get my way, if things don't happen in the order I want them to happen at the time I want them to happen then there is a problem and you all need to know about it that self-importance is just sometimes most of the time if I'm working really hard just gone because I don't matter but and you're saying that's something you learned through the subsequent work you like Alcoholics Anonymous like therapy so why is that self-importance is

that just is that defensive armour that an alcoholic has would you say I don't know and I don't know if it would be I don't think that's like a trait of every it just happened for you that happened to be your it was the control because I needed to get alcohol at the right time I thought there's a phrase I've heard a lot which I love which is the piece of shit at the centre of the universe that was me like if I could have written that book in one sentence and it would have been the piece of shit at the centre of the universe and that's what I was you have to listen to me and agree with me because I hate myself. It's essentially what my, I'm just screaming to the world again and again.

I cannot abide myself, so do exactly what I say and will be okay. And, you know, if you don't have something to replace alcohol with, if you're not able to address those parts of yourself that alcohol protected you from, life is not going to be much fun. And, you know, that doesn't have to be anything. It could be whether it's spirituality, whether it's therapy, whether it's running or exercise or creativity or painting or 12-step work

or whatever it is, you have to start to heal and learn how to feel again and learn how to live and be around people without alcohol. Because alcohol is my great coping mechanism. It's not my great problem. I am my great problem. Alcohol is how I cope with that problem. So if I take the coping mechanism away, I'm in a worse position. I'm probably worse company. That's very, that's really kind of huge, I think. You mentioned that in the book when you say alcohol isn't the problem, I am the problem.

In the same way that gambling wasn't the problem, I was the problem. But that's harder to accept, isn't it? That, you know, that you're the problem. Because everyone's been telling you, like, you drink too much, you're pissed, you're at a bad mood because you're not drinking. So the focus is always on drink, drink, drink, drink. If I could just sort out the drink, if I could drink a bit less, if I could just drink on weekends, things will be okay. And when I stopped, I was a complete mess. Because I didn't have, I didn't know how to do anything without alcohol at the end of it as a destination. I didn't know how to think, I didn't know how to feel,

I didn't know how to calm down, I didn't know how to enjoy anything. So I needed to learn that or engage with it in some way or it would be hell. Oh God, it would be awful. I could not, just thinking about whether I should say this because I don't know how helpful it is, but for me, I would rather drink than not drink,

if not drinking meant just literally, you know, doing exactly the same stuff but cutting alcohol out it would be impossible I would go insane so that's why for me it was really important to do other stuff and dig into it and writing the book was a big part of that process because I'm learning as I write I'm making like connections in my head about my past and what alcohol meant to me and why life was difficult without it as I'm writing because I started writing it quite early on in sobriety. Do you know, John, your book, I'll tell you how I first heard about your book, I was at my great friend Piano Valley's wedding, and I was sat next to Ivo Graham, wonderful comic.

And we, I don't drink. Do you not drink? No. I gave up alcohol in 20, I want to say, about 2019. Wow. And. You should have opened with that. Well, I didn't because I wanted, I wanted to hear your story.

Yeah, that's amazing. But I didn't give up alcohol because I had problems with it. I gave it up because I realised that I was processing kind of complex loss, losing my sister and both my parents all at once kind of thing. Multiple losses, it can be a very complicated form of grief because you don't get time to process each loss individually when you lose your family altogether like that. And I suddenly, it was weird, John, I thought,

do you know, alcohol probably doesn't feel a good choice because I'm going to, if I'm waking up, at least I want to know, if I'm sad, I want to know why I'm sad. It was a weird thing, it was just an instinct. But that's such a sign that you're a normal drinker. Right. Because that makes complete sense and you did it.

Right, right, whereas you would have posed the fuck on through. Well, it's like in the same way that a normal drinker doesn't always know what alcohol they've got in the house. Yes, I see that. You know, a normal drinker just goes, oh, it's all right, I'll drive. Yeah. Like, panic would set in with me if any of those things changed. But you're the person, like, you've got a much more, like, shellfish allergy approach to it. So you're like, this probably isn't a good idea, so I'll stop.

Yeah. But what I have encountered, which is interesting, is, and I mention that wedding, because it does become a conversation that I don't drink. Why don't you drink? I mean, people are very nice about it. They're never generally rude, but or you get, oh, well, I don't want to have a glass of wine if you're not having one. And I say to people, well, aren't I fun company without wine? They're silent, which is not great. But no, it was interesting. When I sat next to Ivo, who, can I say wasn't like that at all, he was saying, oh, it's great that you don't drink.

And a couple of people, the subject of not drinking came up. Then Ivo said, do you know what? I've just read this book and I can't stop thinking about it. And it's called First by John Robbins. And I said, oh, I love him. I went on his podcast. I'm a big fan of his comedy. and he said you've got to read it.

In my head, when I imagine people talking about me at weddings, it's like fucking hell, thank God, John isn't here? God, he was a total arseache. Do you know what he said to me four years ago? It's so nice to hear that people are just, my brain has never imagined this scenario. Really? Yeah.

I'm glad that. It's so nice to think that not everyone's like. I always believe in passing on nice things said behind your back. Because the very concept of behind your back sounds sinister. and I'm on a rebrand behind your back. Because in that instance, it was a very positive issue. Anyway, he said, you have to read this book. I couldn't put it down.

And he was sort of a bit like the ancient mariner with a need to tell his tale about first by John Robbins. So I got in touch with you and you reached out to me actually and then we spoke and I read the book. I became Ivo Graham. I became the ancient mariner with a need to tell what I started reading it, went out to dinner with some close friends, said I'm reading this extraordinary book.

You've got to read it. So what I'm saying is I think you've written something really exceptional and special. And I feel, I don't really know you that well, but I feel really proud of you. Oh, thank you. That's so kind. And I hope it's like, it's useful beyond just the world of alcoholism, because, you know, what I am trying to learn and describe is like how I cope with life and how I did it through alcohol and how I'm learning to do it without alcohol.

And, you know, that's what a lot of us are trying to do is like, you know, I don't know if everyone's social media is the same, but I switch on and it's like, here are the five things I do every morning, here are the seven things to avoid eating, here are the ten habits, of highly and you're like fucking hell just let me go I need to go for a piss and make a cup of tea and all that stuff together is so overwhelming well I felt because we're all trying to go on our phones less and we're all trying to be better partners and we're all trying to raise our kids better and we're all trying to and you're like you're probably doing okay you know if you're giving it a go and the fact that you're getting hammered with this stuff on social media

probably shows that you're at least engaging with who you are, how you behave, how the people around you behave, which is what makes it so troubling when, especially like young men, when they open that world, it's one of othering and, you know, women are out to get you and this is what the government isn't telling you and blah, blah, blah. Because I assume everyone's social media is my social media, social media right so I hope that there's stuff in there that helps people cope with

or understand themselves or the people around them a bit better even if alcohol isn't part of the equation I also feel John I got the impression from reading your book that there's a part of you that's kind of slightly adjusted your relationship with fame and the concept of fame and the aspiration of fame why Why do you think that happened and how has your idea or sort of attitude towards being famous, how has that changed? Well first thing happened when I was still drinking and that was just realising that actually I didn't want to be famous and that everything I had got bitter about not getting

was stuff I either didn't want to do or wasn't very good at. Like what sort of thing? It's like a lot of tele... Panel shows or something. Yeah, I was on Mock the Week a couple of times. I've done a few bits and bobs and I just never felt like the door was fully open. Right.

And I think something that for comedians, you have to learn to deal with, is if you walk into a bar after a gig in Edinburgh and there's 10 comics there, like they'll be doing 10 different projects one will have a book one will have a podcast one will be on mock the week one will be writing a script one will be on a radio show

one will be selling out their tour you think oh fuck I haven't done any of those things I thought I was a comedian and now I'm I thought I was a comedian I'm now not a novelist not a script writer not a podcaster not a radio presenter because there's all these different jobs you can do yeah and actually actually realizing, I hated being on Mock the Week.

I felt so self-conscious. I went about it completely the wrong way. The way that they make TV like that is such, like, so inefficient. They don't trust you. You've got to run everything by them. You literally have to script exactly what you're going to say. It gets hacked to bits by someone who doesn't understand the bit. You watch it back and you think, Jesus Christ, you know, what a mess.

But, you know, it's still entertaining and people watch it and they don't know all these things. But the more I did radio with Ellis, where I was just being myself and talking, and none of it's scripted and you can just improvise. And someone just hits a button and goes, right, we're away, three hours. I was like, oh, this is something I'm really good at. I feel comfortable here. And actually that makes sense because your shows, I always think there's a lot of, there is a sort of vulnerability, I suppose, at the heart of a lot of.

your comedy and I think if you're that kind of a comic because a lot of comics aren't you know their show isn't that that's not well I think like but you are and that's why I can see why that kind of structure just would feel very wrong for you and sort of dishonest in a way I think what I learned is that if you watch let's say you watch an episode an old episode of mock the week the people who excel on that are people who you can describe really quickly right So Rob Beckett, cheeky chippy, two words. Like Catherine Ryan, scathing, Joan Rivers.

Like I can say what that person is and I can communicate to an audience. You're going to like it when Rob speaks because he calls bullshit. You're going to like it when Catherine speaks because she just like slays that sacred cow. Yeah. So they've got very clear brand values, if you like. Yeah, because they have to because they're getting 10 seconds in the edit. Right. And that's a real skill.

And I've played football with Rob. He's so quick and so succinct. Yeah. There's no fat on the bone. But he's also a lot more... You're right. That's not all there is... You're seeing one side of him on Wockley.

Yeah, yeah. Acaster, incredulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's just incredulous. Whereas I always felt like with me, I wasn't being good enough at being like a sort of character. What's your brand on? It's that.

Well, you'd say, well, he's sort of quite neurotic, but he also is sort of quite down on himself. He gets quite depressed, but he's also really obsessive. And he's like, sorry, I'm bored now. And also we cut 10 seconds ago. So how do you communicate that in a line, in a joke? You can't really. But that's so interesting, John, isn't it? Because you think that's about the difference

between, I suppose, more populous entertainment where we want heroes and villains for that kind of thing. Or simplistic character portraits, don't you? You don't want... Well, I think it's a... Simplistic would sound like I'm sort of looking down on them. It's efficient. Yeah.

It's really efficient. There's nothing... I think actually, instead of simplistic, I mean clear. There's a clarity to it, isn't there? I mean, it's like, like, Alistair Campbell and Blair. Yeah. You know, can't give it to me in three words. Give it to me in a sentence.

Give it to me in two sentences. Yeah. So you've got someone like Rob Beckett, education, education, education. And then you got me, I'm like the sort of white paper. That's no good. So I was like, instead of thinking, why aren't I getting this? Why aren't I doing that? Why aren't they booking me again?

I was able to go, because you're not very good at it. Right. And there are things that you are good at. Yeah. So, you know, I'm good at prose. I'm good at structuring 90 minutes of stand-up. I'm good at talking to my friend on a podcast for two hours a week for 12 years. Not every single one is amazing.

Not every single thing I say works. But on balance, when you take those thousand episodes, it's like there's a person people want to spend time with. And I was pissed off about this. six years ago like pissed off about not getting on Taskmaster and this would have been like series 14 or 15 right before you did it yeah yeah and I was at someone's birthday and I was just like what I have to fuck you do blah blah blah wo is me alcoholic alcoholic alcoholic alcohol me poor me pour me pull me pull me another one and Lou said Lou Sander said John no one gets all the stuff and I was like oh yeah no no one gets all the

Like, even go like, not that he'd want one, but you go like, McIntyre doesn't have a podcast, a really successful podcast. You know, Catherine Ryan doesn't have a once weekly commercial radio show on a station primarily focused at men who drink Strongboat. Like, not that they would necessarily want these things, but like, no one's doing it at all. Yeah. And that made me go, oh, right, so I can. kind of just do what I'm good at and what I have written myself and that was the most important realisation is that all this stuff I've made. But how weird John at the moment you thought that then you got off a taskmaster. Yeah I know what I mean the fact that. I got taskmaster off the first

gig I did sober. Isn't that mad? Again I'm going back I'm looking at that book saying John come on. I had been sober for like three or four weeks literally like I did a live show with Ellis of our made up games format that got turned down by all the TV channels poor me, poor me, poor me, poor me another one. And the people at the production company saw me and I got offered it off the back of that. Now that tells me something about being sober. It tells me something about the universe and letting go. And it also tells me that whenever I'm pissed off about something, whenever I'm being very self-centered and self-pitying, something good may be being built out of sight, you know, because the alcoholic

narrative of that is me and Alice have got this perfect format and it works and we did it live and we sold it out and it's brilliant and no one wants to make it because because the whole world's against me and then I just need to tap myself on the shoulder and go, that was when you got the thing you'd always wanted to do. It just wasn't exactly how you wanted it. And that's taught me a lot about anxiety or worrying about the future. It's like, if you got what you wanted, life would be hell. Because you'd never get any of the stuff you didn't know you wanted. And it also is that thing of like, I always do this.

When I was driving here today, I thought, God, I'm driving out to take my dog who I love for a walk with someone whose book I've just read and loved. I'm so lucky that I get to do it. but I think what I think is very easy is to start thinking, why aren't I doing this podcast? Why aren't I in that situation? Exactly what you were saying before,

that comparison being the Thief of Joy thing. It's hard sometimes, but I found it really interesting with your story when you talk about, it feels like a lot of good things come into your life as soon as you start accepting. As soon as there's kind of an acceptance with the things being imperfect? 100%.

And also, the most important thing to accept is I'm not in charge of the show. You know, it's my life and I look out of my eyes and I live in my head. CEOs don't think that, do they? I just, I'm not, it's not up to me. It doesn't matter, like what I want. It's irrelevant.

It'll happen. And I can work on the stuff I enjoy. I can turn down the stuff I don't. I cannot get offered the stuff I don't. It doesn't matter. I'm not, at the minute I start to take control of my life, things go wrong. Really? Like, just all falls apart.

Because you've got nine, eight and a half billion people trying to take control of their lives. And they can't all be, they can't all be writing the script, you know? The script is sort of, as much as you may try and tweak it, gets written for you. You say something which I was so impressed by something you did, which is, You talked about how inevitably alcohol affected and impacted your relationships. And you do this amazing thing where you sort of pray for happiness for your ex. That seems like a very evolved place to be. Congratulations.

Yeah, I have found that the only way to over overcome resentments. Yeah. And, you know, that wasn't a resentment as such, but it was a... It's pain, isn't it? It was pain and regret. Yeah, of course. Is to sort of wish well to the people who are the subject of those regrets and resentments and pain.

Because, you know, when... When you just go a layer lower every time, and it might start with, why am I scared of sending this email? Oh, yeah. And, you know, below that, it's because, well, I'm scared of upsetting someone. Below that is because, you know, when I was a kid, A, B or C happened. Yeah. Below that, anger.

Why was my life like that? Below that sadness, that poor boy, you keep going and keep going, and you get to compassion. you have to. You get to love. So once you've experienced all those layers and you're like, this person really annoys me or I want this person back in my life, the only response that's going to be of long-lasting good is love.

So what would love say? That's something that's been told to me and it's an incredibly useful piece of vice, but you can't jump straight to it. But it's like, well, love would say, I want that person to have everything they dream of. And suddenly, if you keep doing that, like every day, within a week or two, the resentments just go. And you don't have to live with them anymore. And that might be resenting something you've done.

Or it might be like, I don't know, the guy who got your job. job or the woman your husband ran off with or whatever it is. If you keep saying, I want the best for her. I want their relationship to flourish. Even if you don't feel it, which you won't initially, you keep saying it, you just set yourself free. Yeah. Because who does it hurt? Being resentful. Let's take that example of someone running off with your partner. What are you to spend the rest of your life angry? Who's, that doesn't, what does that, who's that hurting? It hurts you. So you're condemning yourself to living in misery. The only thing you have control over in that situation is your attitude. Yeah. Yeah, I think also. Like when I, when we started this,

like my neighbour getting the barking dog, it doesn't change one element of the noise, the frequency, how disruptive it is, if I get angry about it. Yeah. But it makes my life hell. Whereas if I'm in bed going, oh, it's the dog again, it's fine. But that's because you're able to regulate your emotions now, much. Oh, yeah. More successfully than you were once able to.

That would have been the great tragedy of my life, my neighbour, getting a barking dog when I was drinking. Honestly, it would have become an easy thing to focus on as well. Again, it's kind of like... Oh, I'd have been on like council websites. What are noise regulations? How do I make a complaint? then I'd get scared about making a complaint,

then I would think, well, I'm going to have to move house, I'd have to start, it would have been in fucking madness. Months and months of madness. Or in a second, I can go, it is what it is, you know, it's fine. I'm really glad I've come to meet you now, John, rather than when you're at that stage. We didn't got lashed. No, because what if it was the time when I'd given up drinking? No, you wouldn't have got an invite.

That does happen now. I think sometimes people do think she's less fast. Oh, but it's funny. And I don't mind that. I don't want to be out getting around people getting hammered. Yeah. You know, people do stop like inviting you to stuff. But again, what am I going to do?

I accept it or I don't. Yeah. And when they do invite me, I leave at half eight. Yeah. I get there. If you, there have been like two or three birthday parties recently I've been to where the invite says like 60. till late, carriages at 1am or whatever it is, people say.

I'm there at six. Yes, I am as well. So I went to my friend Henry's birthday. And they always remember you, John. That's the great thing. We make more of an impact. Because we get there early, they say, yeah, you had a great time. I remember you.

But you get to have time with your friend, when the music, before the music gets turned up, you get to meet their like relatives. You get to help put up the bunting or whatever it is. And half eight, when the music cranks up, people get a bit slurry. You're like, okay, I'm gone. Well, do you know also, I think it's about feeling comfortable. When I did the same with Pierre's wedding, I was driving.

When I knew sort of, you know, 10-ish onwards, half-10 is when the booze comes out. I mean, they've been drinking all day, but just the dancing and it gets noisy. Yeah, yeah. Not great with noise or a lot of drinking. So I'm like, no, I've had a lovely day, being here since 12, I'm allowed to leave. So we're now getting back to your beautiful abode John. Thank you, yes. And you've got an appointment.

I feel like you're comfortable with me acknowledging on the podcast. You're going to meet with your therapist now. Yeah, I've got therapy now. What's the biggest thing you've learnt from therapy? Oh, that's a good cue. The importance of my body and its sensations. Well, do you know what was a huge moment for me? It was reading first by John Robbins.

And I honestly, it feels like a really, it's a very special book. Thank you. And it really did. It's one of those books, which, yeah, I kind of can't stop thinking about. And I think there's no greater compliment. John, I'm going to let you go. Thank you very much. Can I quickly say.

Bye, bye, Raymond. Do you prefer Raymond at least to some dogs you've met? Oh God, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, that's great. He's top half, top off at the table. He's pushing for a European place. He's pushing, I'd probably say,

UEFA, what's that one called? Europa League, yeah. Europa League. He's Fulham. Is he Fulham? Yeah, he's Fulham. He's Fulham. He's maybe even Villa this year.

Raymond, you're Fulham. John, it's been so lovely. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.