Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Johnny Marr (Part One)

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

This week Emily and Ray take a stroll with one of the most influential guitarists and songwriters of his generation, Johnny Marr.Johnny grew up in Manchester in a house filled with music, before going on to co-found The Smiths and create a sound that would influence generations of musicians. He tells Emily about those early years, the formation of the band and the extraordinary musical legacy they left behind, as well as the lasting impact that period had on his own life and career.After The Smiths, Johnny built a career every bit as eclectic as you’d expect, working with artists including The Pretenders, The The, Modest Mouse and Gorillaz, before establishing himself as an acclaimed solo artist.His new album, The Age of Everything, is out now, and a new anniversary edition of his autobiography, Set the Boy Free, will be released on 22 October.And, crucially, Johnny is a serious dog person. He arrived for the walk armed with treats for Ray and plenty of stories about his two Rhodesian Ridgebacks, leaving Emily wondering whether she and Ray might be able to move in with Johnny, his wife Angie and the dogs. There is just one condition: absolutely no guitar playing while Emily is watching reality TV.Follow Emily:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyrebeccadeanX: https://twitter.com/divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich JarmanArtwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think if you were in the Big Brotherhouse and I accept that that will never happen because you're Johnny Ma. It's an idea. My PR stroke plugger person's here. That was a joke, Tom. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I took a stroll with the legendary guitarist, songwriting, juniors, and of course, co-founder of the Smith's Johnny Marr. So like most people, I see this man as a full-blown musical god. So I was genuinely quite nervous about meeting him, but all of that disappeared the moment he showed up because he was so incredibly friendly and open and warm

and crucially, he loves dogs. So he couldn't wait to tell me all about his two Rhodesian Ridgebacks back home. And he also turned up with a packet of treats for Ray. How many guitar legends do that? And we had the loveliest walk chatting about his fascinating life story from his childhood growing up in Manchester, with parents who were constantly playing music, which is where his passion for it all begun,

to going on to form a little band you might have heard of called The Smiths, and we chatted a lot about their unique musical legacy and also the lasting impact that period had on Johnny's own life and career. He, of course, went on to enjoy a string of hugely successful collaborations with bands like The Pretenders, Modest Mouse, The The, and Gorillas, and has since won enormous acclaim for his work as a solo artist. In fact, he's just released a brand new album, The Age of Everything, which is honestly, in my opinion, one of the best albums he's ever done.

It's basically like a great big bowl of everything you could possibly ever want from Johnny Marr. So do make sure to grab your copy now. And he's also releasing an anniversary edition of his brilliant autobiography, Set the Boy Free, and that'll be out on October the 22nd. I have to say Johnny Marr is one of those very rare things, a musical icon you only ever hear incredibly lovely things about. And I can see why, because he's just so genuine and easy to talk to, and frankly hilarious.

In fact, Noel Gallagher has called Johnny his guardian angel who's never turned down any favours he's ever asked him. So knowing that, I have a favour to ask Johnny. Please can Ray and I move in with you, your lovely wife, Angie and your two Rhodesian ridgebacks. Just one thing, Johnny, no guitar playing when I'm watching my reality TV shows, please. Really hope you enjoy our chat. I've always wanted to say this. Here's Johnny and Ray Ray. He's a bit goth, isn't he? I used to look a bit like you when I was in my teenage years, Raymond. You just need like a dog toothyering and a LAMF T-shirt and you're in my band.

He doesn't appear to be that demanding, although he definitely takes the world at his own pace, does Raymond, doesn't he? You've just summed him up beautifully. Yeah, he does I like it. Good on him, there's a lot to learn from Raymond. Do you think so? I think, yeah, I mean, if you, he's literally like, well, smelling the roses, if there were roses there, he's smelling. What's you doing now? He's kind of just taking it all in.

Now, have you, you're so-called. with him. Did you grow up with dogs? No, we had cats. Boo. I know. Well, you had a cat called Fluffy that you didn't like very much. Oh, Fluffy, yeah. Well, when I think of Fluffy was, it was the family cat, but really it was my sister kind of, yeah, my sister was, was in cahoots with Fluffy. You hated. I hated Fluffy and Fluffy hated me, the more my sister Claire, like, sort of dug in. She used to kind of marshal, she used to kind of marshal, that little thing against me. Yeah, yeah. I just just think, yeah, Claire knew it was like used to wind me up. So my sister was funny. Still is. So. Well, I want to get back to Fluffy, but we should firstly establish your dog status because you are a Rhodesian Ridgeback fan. Absolutely. I've got two. And we had a one before this. So we've always had, we've always had two dogs, me and Angie. Yeah. We just, that's just the way it's gone. We're starting.

off in in about 85 86 we had two German shepherds called Rufus and Curtis and after Rufus Thomas and Curtis Mayfield and they were from the same pack the same same litter sisters one long hair one short hair so it was quite interesting having German shepherds because we know about all about them they're pretty intense but super intelligent oh they're really smart they're really really smart dogs yeah And are they very loyal, Johnny, to the family? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, they are.

They are. Well, we still had them when the kids first came. And I was a little nervous. I mean, Angie, my wife is absolutely the dog whisperer. So in our neighbourhood, most people know her as just being amazing. Like the person that even other people's dogs kind of gravitate to. She's amazing. She's got this really brilliant empathy with dogs.

So when we had the German Shepherds and the kids were first born, I was a little nervous about, you know, being a new parent, how the dogs were going to be with the babies. But they were straight away. They were amazing. It was a bit like a movie, you know. They were super protective immediately had this kind of connection with the babies, which was really sweet to see so.

So my experience of German Shepherds, though, highly intelligent and kind of really understanding. of the vibe. Yeah, very protective, but not necessarily, you know, not like just automatically vicious or anything. Well, they always say, don't you, you get the dog you want, you know, or the dog you deserve in some ways. Raymond's Zen, isn't he? Well, you've met the Dalai Lama, and I'm going to say there's some similarities here. Well, I love that. Yeah, maybe he's like the next reincarnation. That's who he is. You never know, though, with his. things. Don't get me started on reincarnation and Tibetan, Tibetan law and Vedanta and I'll go there.

I'll really go there. Well, they were originally shih Tzu's. They're kind of called a Buddhist dogs because they're kept by Buddhists. Yeah, like monks and in monasteries. They gifted them originally to Chinese emperors, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how, but yeah, I think he's your kind of dog. So where do you show rich? Would I love your Rhodesian Ridgeback? Oh absolutely, yeah. Because, well, they, so the thing we read Ridgebacks is that they were bred to corral wild animals and what was once Rhodesia, obviously hence the name.

And so the thing with them, people don't believe this, but they tend to not bark at all because they're very, it's all about stealth. So if you've got a few of them together, what freaks other dog owners out is that they kind of like surround the other dog. And that's just their instinct, their pack instinct. And they're really quiet because the idea of being that they used to, with stealth, like, hund down lions. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So that's the sort of myth. That's the origin of the mythology of the Rhodesian Ridgeback.

They used to like bring, use them to corral lions so they have to be absolutely. quiet so sometimes with our dogs when we they've now learned to be a bit more protective but I don't mean walking down the road but if someone comes to the house but for the longest time when they were when their pups they just wouldn't bark people come to the doorbell and they'd um so in a way they're like the worst guard dogs in the world they look quite imposing to other people I have since I have since discovered but to me see not only arouse always female so they're they are smaller than they look smaller to me because I'm used to I've seen the male ones and

they're more imposing but you know that thing with other people sometimes other people who are a bit nervy with their dogs a hundred percent I know that they drive me mad those people and they pick their dogs up when we approach and our dogs are the really loving and actually it's also the worst thing you can do because I noticed Raymond small but you know what he's actually liked big dogs And big dogs in my experience are very gentle with him. They're intelligent interested in. They know he's not someone to play with.

Yeah. It's actually, you know, those sort of mid-sized dogs that can be more tricky. But those big things like Redizian Ridgebacks, I think you're right. People just, they're overcautious about that. And they pick the dog up. And immediately what you've got then is, well, you're actually making it worse for a start as well. Oh yeah, totally because everybody. he's just getting nervy and thinking, right, is this a bit of a standoff?

The owners included. It's a funny thing with people, I find that, I mean, our neighbourhood's great and we all, and is this in Manchester, John, still? Yeah, I mean, I live, I live most, at the moment I'm living in London, but we, but generally I think of my hometown has been just outside of Manchester, he's in Cheshire. Yeah. So everybody, you know, we know, you have that thing as well of, you bump into other dog

walkers and you sort of know each other and you know the, the personality of their dogs, But occasionally, if someone will appear and you just know they're not, they're not very comfortable with their dog or being a dog owner. And then it's a little bit, all bets off then. And we feel sort of responsible as having the bigger dog. Yes, I understand. To make them feel at ease. So we go out of our way to be like, look, there's no threat.

Our dogs are just so nice. And I think also, if your dog is on a lead, and if your dog was going to be a problem or had a high priority drive and was not safe around small dogs, you know, you'd be aware of that, wouldn't you? Yeah. It's not like you'd let it go charging towards a small dog. You've got to be totally responsible. He's getting tangled, Johnny.

I don't know what to do. Come on, Ray. Well, you know, maybe walking too fast. I don't mind chilling out. I'm fine. This is, I'll go on Raymond's pace. I like it. Do you like it? Yeah.

He makes me feel quite zen sometimes. Yeah, I get that. You have to sort of drink in the world with him. Do you know what I mean? I think that's a really brilliant thing. It is, actually. I mean, more you tune into that. I mean, if it was me, I'd just hang out with Raymond and not do any work whatsoever.

No interviews, no shows. So we just sack up the interview and just hang out with Roman. This guy's like, he's like, he's a mystic. I like this guy. Yeah. Oh God, this is already the favorite interview I've ever done. Totally at his pace. I just hang out with him all day and just go with where he goes.

At the end of my life, I'd just say, well, what did you achieve? You just say, well, I just hung out with Raymond. So where things went is. Look at him. Why not? So the two ridgebacks, what are they called? One's called Buzz and one's called Indy. What great names?

I've always named our dogs. I thought for years until the kids came along, because I was just really great at it. But then when the kids came along, it's apparently because I'm a control freak and I don't let anyone get in there first. Did you say actually I'm a creative visionary? And they said, shut up, Dad. Yeah, exactly.

Can you text both of them and tell them that, please? So that's your experience of this interview. So we had Rivers and Curtis in the 80s and then we got a new Fallon called Boogie. Great name. Which was a good name. And Boogie was this huge, they're amazing, big black Newfoundland. And then that boogie, all the kids, that coincided with my kids being really little. And all the, my kids' friends loved Boogie because she was so gentle.

And then, and did that thing that I think dog owners don't quite realize just how close to type and brand dogs are. So true. So Boogie, when it snowed, she just loved. She was like she was in Newfoundland. And we did put a harness on and let her pull the kids around around with this quite a good garden. Oh, don't know. That's a sweet. That's actually making me cry. Yeah. She's so good. They're so, I mean, I know the Peter Pan cliche is true because they are incredible with kids, aren't they?

She was so good. But unfortunately, but my daughter really wanted a dashound and so we went against type and we got so we had new, We had Boogie, this enormous newfoundland, and then we had this little dash-hand called Huxley, which I named after Aldous Huxley. Oh yeah, you're a big hand, aren't you? Me too, actually. Yeah. What a colossal person.

Yeah. And it was a great, you know, I did that thing where the whole thing with having the dash-hand because she did absolutely sort of dominate the house and boss the house with her, you know, her sort of moods and all of that, really, the little dog syndrome. She really did. but I did that thing it was almost like a gift for me because I did that thing

when my daughter was asleep in bed and I brought the dog to her and put it on the bed so she woke up with this little puppy and it's a memory I'll never forget it was almost better for me even so we had Huxley for

a while for you know good run whatever 10 years 10 or 12 years and they all you know we had that thing where you know they well she just conked out chasing rabbits which was great she just like pegged out which was okay you know when you lose them of course when you have to put them down or whatever for whatever reason

because we had that thing with the german shepherds sadly where you know the hindquarters were really causing them problems you know the yeah all of that stuff with the hips and everything so that was so we went through that the kind of remember that was a little bit of a learning curve And then after that then, after that pair, we got into the ridge backs and then we had one which I think is the best name for a dog I've ever come up which is called Riff. We had Rift. Oh you had, Johnny Marr has to have a dog called Rift, of course. I should open a, do a website with all these dogs names shouldn't I mean it could be a good side hustle for you. The guitar playing stops working out. Well I've had I did have a mate who was a

guitar player asked me, he's like, well, I'm getting a dog where you come up with a name for the dog. So, you know, so you know, like, David Bowie's Mick Ronson from the Spiders from Mars, it was called Rono. Yeah. I always thought that was a good name for a dog. Well, if I get a friend for Ray, I'm going to hold you to this. I'm going to get in touch with you. I'm going to say Johnny I'm going to say, Johnny Ma, you have to name the next dog I get. Absolutely, being an honor. So I want to go back a bit to your childhood, because you wrote a brilliant book called Set the Boy Free. About 10 years ago, I want to say. And there's an anniversary edition, which is out very soon. I've been lucky enough to get hold of a copy and Noel Gallagher does the foreword. It's supposed to say he's

something of a fan, isn't he? But a friend, most importantly as well. He's one of the closest friends. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we... And it's lovely what he says about you, Johnny. Just he says, they say never meet your heroes or something like they were wrong. And it's, it's really special book. But it also, I love this because it tells you're very honest about your life and your beginnings and all this kind of stuff. And you talk about your childhood growing up in Manchester's, Adwick Green, isn't it? Yeah. And it strikes me as very sort of your classic Manchester red brick terrace house. Was that the vibe?

Yeah. Very late 60. I was born in 63 and the whole the vibe, I mean, with the new version actually, one of the things about this new edition coming out, which is 10 years since, is the new publishers, Thames and Houghton, they've sourced some photographs that I'd never even seen before, not of me, but of my neighbourhood. And there's a couple of these pictures, like, and I look back and it's exactly as I remembered it, and it does look, not quite Dickensian, but that thing you were talking about, the sort of super industrial revolution, red brick, 60s, it's quite

slightly oppressive and i remember it being that way frankly yeah it was a it was a it was oppressive very highly spirited and because i my childhood was that with a real because i grew up in exclusively irish uh surrounded irish of my cousins and their neighborhood and my mom and dad and everything it was quite um there was a heavy sort of catholicism so it was quite yeah i had a nice childhood but it was quite heavy uh growing up in the year in a city. There's lots of stimulation, lots to be excited about, particularly because my mum and dad was so young when I was born. I think my mum was 17 and dad was 19 and I was the oldest, so young family and all of that. But that inner city experience was very, you know, if you made like a,

if you had made a TV drama or a documentary or something about it, all the cars rushing by and that sort of red brick buildings and they're sort of very working class very of it very typical of its time and that was just before what was we got moved out to the suburbs which is a whole other amazing shaps that within that was that was in withinshore yeah what i'd like is you said of that and it was so interesting to me that you say of that it felt like moving to beverly hills oh yeah and i love that do you know why because i think we can tend to particularly someone like me was brought up in London where it's like you almost romanticise those now gentrified red brick terraces. It's like, oh, but they're beautiful. Why do you want to live in that horrible modern place?

And it's like, no, because there was no fucking bath or central heating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, the thing about that as well, though, is that why I say that is because it was like moving to Beverly Hills was because Wooden Shores got a reputation. It's sort of a notoriety for being quite heavy and quite rough. Has it? To me and my sister, but it was a little. little bit like what's that over there mum oh that's that's a tree John what's a tree because before that it was so in a city which I loved which has stayed with me I love cities

but so it wasn't like some hardship but wouldn't sure is one of the things about it it's got a notoriety for being a little bit rough but rough as in violent but actually it's very very green they called it the garden city so to me and my sister it was like there's absolute visceral I mean it wasn't on like seeing this here. You know, I mean, to us it was like seeing that. Is that why those spaces were built in a way of us, wasn't it? Oh look, look, he's just seen someone. He's seen these dogs and he wants to stick with Johnny

because he's not confident but he's intrigued. Raymond, come on. Do we give Raymond another go at a little biscuit, a really little go at it, do you think? Oh, John, you're so kind. Do you think? Raymond, Johnny's got a treat for you. Just to make you feel a little bit.

Right, okay, we won't overface you with this now, Raymond. We'll give you a tiny little bit. Come on, Raymond. Did you say, when we first met, did you say he's quite Hacienda? Yeah. He's more CBGBs, though. Do you get that? He is more CBGBs.

Donnie Marr, I'm not going to have an argument with you about whether my dog is more Hasseender or more CBGs. Yeah, he just needs a remand's t-shirt. Do you not think there is something of the Sean Ryder about him, though? Oh, he's shaggy, isn't he? The later. I get it. Why you say Hacienda.

That's the later. Hacienda obviously oh hang on let it is like Hacienda all right he really needs them breaking down these biscuits you know we're gonna do it John me well I'll do it this way okay I'll do it this way yeah what's that yeah I'm not I'm not got a dog biscuit in okay you should ask him all right cool all right man no problem do you not want to be in it okay we can take it for you do you want me to take it here we go here we go Raymond up here we go Johnny All right, mate.

It's actually a really nice photo behind the lake. There you go. Nice to meet you, man. All the best, yeah. Thank you. You two, fellas. My dog is really insulted. They didn't want to take a picture of him.

What's nice, Johnny? When people see you, I think it's nice the way people stop you. It's kind of different. You know when people see someone who's on a reality show or something? and it's a bit like collecting pinini stickers. Do you know what I mean getting those pictures? Like, oh, they're famous, let's get a picture. Whereas I really feel when people, I don't know, I get that impression that...

Yeah. Well, a lot of people think they know me, I think, which I say that because that feels like a real privilege. Yeah. And also, I mean, it's so obvious, but people who come to say hi to me, they, by definition, they, they just really like the guitar for a start, which makes them pretty much alright. It's absolutely fine anyway.

It's your people, isn't it? They like the guitar and they're just always really nice and polite. I've got to say one of the many things I really admire about Noel Gallagher. Yeah. His level of fame is beyond. Next level, yeah. It's beyond. And the way he handles it, it's so commendable.

He doesn't get credit for that. There's a lot of things he doesn't get credit for people who's take for granted. He's amazing with people because he's so recognisable. Loads of people who, not even big music fans, but everyone goes to him. And he just handles it, whereas it only takes three people to talk to me in a day and I have like a nervous breakdown and need therapy. What's it all about? Are you a bit more like that?

Are you quite private, do you think? I am. I'm more private than people think. Yeah. I think, yeah. I am, yeah, because, you know, there is another side to me that I think comes out in the music, really, particularly some of the more sad kind of Smith's music. And I like that, I like that.

I mean, there's a song in the new record called In and Out of Love, which is very dramatic. Yeah. And it's that word melancholy, isn't it? So I'm talking about depression, but I just think... I think there's a yearning. in your music. Oh, what a lovely word. Rather than a melancholy.

You know, when people would always talk about miserable and melancholy, I think, no, it's yearning, because at the end of yearning, with yearning, there's hope. That's a really lovely way of putting it. Yeah, that's, that is the feeling, yeah. That is the, and there's a bit of Irishness in that, I think. Yes. Irishness.

I think that's right. There's a thing of that, really. Yeah. Well, I think that's always been, I've particularly loved about your music, is that tension between dark and light, Yeah. You know, that sometimes it might be, there's elements of, you know, it's complex and you might be, the subject matter may be despair, but your style is hopeful.

Well, yeah, I think with what I do, like with other bands or with my own stuff, whatever it is, it's kind of full on in whatever direction. Yeah. So if it's upbeat, it's pretty exuberant and it's sort of crosses the line between just being like a, you know, fast tempo indie tune. I have to, when I'm doing it and working on it, I have to be snagged by a spirit in it. It has to have some sort of, it has to be spirited. And then on the other side of it, if it is, if it goes into yearning, it's a lovely word, but if it does go into something that's a bit more emotive and dramatic and there's loads of stuff of that in the Smith stuff, and even a song I did with Chrissy, when I was

in the pretenders called When Will I See You? There's got a lot of yearning in that. Either way, it's got to snag you with some spirit. It can't just be... It can't just be beige. It's got whatever it is. It's got to be tip over into kind of full on, I think. Yeah.

So it's got a snagier. I like that, yeah. I think that's really true of your music. And talking of your music, what interested me about your story is there was a little shot called Emmelies, which I like, because my name is Emily.

And that, you used to look at Emmys and you saw a guitar in the window of Emmys, didn't you? Yeah. And was that where you got your first guitar? Yeah, when it was about five. And amazingly, I think the thing I'm most buzzed about with this new book is that they found a photograph of Emily's. I know. And the new one. And it had just been in my memory for what, 65 years.

Isn't that amazing? It must be quite emotional, I think. When I saw it, there's pictures of my street. and there's pictures of Emily's that shop and it's exactly as I remembered it which is amazing through the mists of time and for fans because they've heard that story so many times the shop where

that used to sell brooms and buckets right they've heard that same story because I've been asked about it you actually see it that was brilliant for me that they source that photograph so yeah that was when I was a little boy And it was obvious, was it obvious to everyone that music and particularly the guitar was just this passion? Yeah, really young age.

Yeah, my mum and dad really recognised it and because it was such big music fans and still are. They kind of love that I was so besotted with it because they are really, my mother particularly besotted with music. Oh, is she like the Everly brothers, didn't she? She's like, she's still the same now. So if I, you know, we'll be talking either on the phone or if I nip round, if she gets on the subject of a new song she likes, she's like, she'll talk about it for 10 minutes. And I love that. I love her passion for it and enjoying it. And she was like that when I was growing up. My dad was the same, but he's just less talkative.

Yes, I get your dad, because he was he a gas pipe player? Yeah, he put pipes down in the road for I. 50 years or whatever. So is he quite one of those very dependable big presents kind of thing? Or was he quite quiet and your mum was more extrovert and lively. My dad's really quiet. Was he? He really, well, you know, because my mum's so chatty. But she's amazing. She's so cool. She's a real bright spark and still is, which is obviously and I'm very privileged because I'm at the age now where a lot of my friends, their parents are, you know, sadly sort of dying now my parents are still pretty hailing hearty which is amazing

yeah so that's really sweet but it was a lively sort of warm household would you say it was very lively very because because of yeah my mum's energy and then when i got to 10 my little brother arrived then so when you've got a baby in the house as well and we were me and my Me and Claire were, you know, we took on the, well, we looked after him quite a lot as well. And we all mucked in and everything. So, and it's super working class. And, you know, Claire's 11, 12. She's 11 months younger than me.

So she's a lively kid and I'm really lively. And then we've got a little baby in this quite, you know, little council house. And there's always either the radio on Dead Loud or Claire's playing, Claire's playing like cooling the gang upstairs in her room really loud and I play in the stooges in my room and my mum's got the radio on. And occasionally I get the impression the only crossover that you might get is if Nile Rogers is involved in one of the songs she's listening to. Yeah, well that definitely happened.

Yeah. But so yeah it was it was really busy the house and sort of exuberant and the thing about that really though being the oldest and I don't. think it's a particularly Irish thing because I had this conversation with John Leiden and Kevin Rowland as well and that the oldest is really independent. Hmm, interesting. My mum and dad just assumed that I knew what I was what I was doing and because when I came to write, set the boy free when I did it in 2016, when I was doing research, the first gig that I went to, which was the local,

band slaughtering the dogs the punk sort of notorious punk band and it was in September or anyway it was in 976 yeah I was 12 when I went to that gig and I went on my own and I walked home about quarter to one in the morning so when I did the book I said to my mom I said do you remember that I went of course she didn't remember it and I said do you know I was 12 when I went to that gig she was like me you know what you were doing I was thinking okay different world simpler times but I think that That is a particularly... Yeah. You're self-sufficient maybe.

Yeah. Yeah, you know. But you sound so driven in a way, Johnny, and I think you're unusual in that... Yeah. You sound like you had such a clear sense. It's very rare that. To know that from childhood.

Not just that you wanted to be a musician, but specifically what type of music? You know, you were like, I want to be a guitarist. I like this kind of music. Yeah. You know. Well, there's a few things going on there.

One was, first off, it was just, passion really. So it's really driven by and still, it's still in me that real passion for for music and all the things it is to a, you know, almost like a mystical level really, because I think that's in me anyway, because I can get a bit, yeah, and I am sort of in mysticism and cosmic stuff. So if you, so there's that part of my character with the, passion and everything for music so I can ascribe this almost, you know, cosmic qualities to pop music even and all that, which you know, drive some people mad that I've been in bands with. I can make a really big deal of it.

And then my circumstances really, I guess, so, what it was, it wasn't so much that, genuinely, it wasn't so much that I was like wanted a big car and a swimming pool and all of that acclaim or anything, make a load of dough. It was just, there was the desperation of it, not happening. Really? Yeah, like, I don't mean fame, particularly, just a life of a musician. Really?

Oh, yeah, once I got the sort of, once I started getting really serious about it at 1415, this idea that, uh, because it seemed not that obtainable, frankly, to be it, and make a record. And I did realize that on the one hand, I'd seen Buscox do it, and I had a couple of mates who were older who were getting it together in bands. So on the one hand, there was a door opening, it was obtainable. But then on the other hand, it did seem like being able to get on a rocket and go to Mars. I mean, it can be done. Well, whatever, that can be done.

But what if it does? I remember having a few conversations with myself where I was like, okay, well, if I just become like a job in guitar player in a covers band or whatever, okay, well, I might have to do that. Really? Yeah. So I was, but that brought with it a little bit of like, oh shit, that doesn't sound very good. That's where the desperation came in.

I'm so glad you didn't end up doing that. Yeah, yeah. But my point being even the crappy bits of what was great was that when I used to read these biogs about bands and... Look, some Daxons here. Should we have a look at these, Johnny? These are more your... Oh, little Daxons, Ray, what do you think of them? Their outfits are pretty high-tech.

I've got a bit. Yeah. But I think, hang on. What's going on there? Is that a bodyguard behind them, filming them? They've got more security than you and you're Johnny Mark. Is that another, is that a rival doggy podcast? It's going to kick off.

What is it doing? No, I think what that is, they look like finance bros. Don't you think? And I mean that in the nicest possible way. Yeah. As nice as I can be, being a little. Labour voter about finance bros. There are some nice ones, Johnny.

Do you know what actually? The jackets at those little dashions are wearing, I think are unnecessarily juzzi. To my, you can tell a lot about dog owners, can't you? So yeah, I reckon they are finance bros. Don't you think they've got jolets for a start? The dog jilets. Well, dogs and owners, one of the owners has a jule.

Yeah, those matching dogs. Doggie Gilles say a lot about a dog owner, don't me really? Kind of like... Like, I can imagine if one of those dogs did a poo, it would be a big disaster. I thought you were going to say it would be gold, made of gold. The Bond film, the dog with the golden poo. You'll be doing the soundtrack for that one next, Johnny. Right, come on, you can't take too long.

Oh, darling, you're having a nice time with Johnny Moore. Oh, look at Raymond. I can't imagine him getting too worked up about anything really. He really doesn't, Johnny. Yeah, but he feels very protected and safe. He doesn't seem spoiled so much. He isn't just like a good dude? Are you interested in old dogs?

Yeah. How is he on Bonfire Night? He hates Bonfire Night. Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it? I play music. I might play him your album because he's been listening to your album and he loves it. He loves it, honestly. He likes me, I'm trying to get him onto good music.

Some of his taste isn't very good. Classical music helps them. It really does. Come here, Ray. So. Yeah, Bobfire Night. So, okay. Let's get on to, you're telling me about this period in your life when everyone knows,

everyone sort of knows you're going to be a musician at this point. And you're working in clothes shops. Yeah. And you're getting with this kind of quite cool fashion music club crowd. And crucially, you meet your wonderful wife at this period. You're 15 when you met. Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. Isn't that adorable?

It is adorable, isn't it? Did you just know when you met her, Johnny? I mean, yeah, if when I actually say what happened, it does, it really does sound like I'm over-egging it a little bit, but it literally was when a teenage party didn't know I was going to be there, turned up at this place. and it was a house full of mostly girls. It was a girls party in the neighbourhood of I didn't know anyone in there because it was girls from a different school so it wasn't like loads of my mates

where they had distracted me. So me and my band of course turned up me and two of my mates and three of my mates and got in there and Blondie were playing parallel lines was on the stereo Oh, and in this tiny little suburban front room, sat down on this couch and immediately saw this girl, this vision and stood side on.

Probably really, probably only maybe, what, 10, 12 feet away from me, just stood. And it literally was in my memory, but at the time also was, it was literally like everybody else just took freeze framed. Oh, I love that. I know. It was really like that. total freeze frame and glow around her and I just was just absolutely smitten straight away and then I kind of walked over like I was walking in quicksand as I remember it walking over to a big like because I couldn't get over there quick enough because I

couldn't really believe that anyone that pretty or beautiful wasn't actually didn't have four other guys around her so I was like right now's my chance straight away so you know my house was on the couch for about four I saw her, went over there straight away and then just started gabbling like a, like a very incoherent lunatic. Because I just remember she was just so cool, but I was, you know, my heart was beating and like, just wow, wow. And then because we live near each other in the neighbourhood, pretty much all the everybody, all the kids in the neighbourhood, because there's a lot of them, you know, I wouldn't sure. And because it was me and Claire, I know all Claire's mate, so everyone knew each other. But everyone then just sort of watched this thing play out over the next few weeks of me and Angie kind of,

well, basically me chasing her around really, which is her prerogative. But she was really, really into me, but she made me work at it for a couple of weeks, of course. That's how it should be. Exactly, yeah. Don't you think? Yeah, at the time it was torture. No, but literally because her school was right opposite my house So she had to walk past my house every day to go at school

And we've got this little window on the stairs So I just made sure I was just I just happened to be going past that window As she happened. Now of course I was stood there for like 11 minutes waiting for it to go past And then I had to make it look like I was just going past the window And of course she was waiting on the corner She was doing it on her side as well But she didn't telegraph it to me

I just remember having this very sort of a few weeks of a like, oh, God, you know, I think this is going great. I think she likes me. And it was brilliant. Isn't that lovely? It was brilliant. Absolutely amazing, yeah. What a nice story to tell your kids as well. Yeah.

Yeah, it's such a massive thing in my life, obviously, and Angie's, you know. And then, you know, people. I love people that met their partners before they were famous. Yeah, it was, wow. I think it gives you a real structure to your life. Do you know what I mean? Undoubtedly. The thing that I always, there's a slight caveat when I talk about Mind and Angie's relationship,

because people aren't mind readers, I always point out that it could be, you could be forgiven for thinking that throughout my sort of turbulent rock and roll years, to Angie was this dutiful, her housewife stood in a penny at the kitchen sink, waving goodbye to me as I walked down the path to go on the indie wars, right? But Angie's more rock and roll and I don't mean debauched her anything because she's very grounded. No, but she's super cool. She was with us all the time. Your companion on that journey, wasn't she? Yeah, and the rest of the Smiths and the rest of the other and no one would have had it any other way. In fact, they generally speaking, like Angie more than they like me really and certainly we I kind of love Angie from

what I know about her and certainly know that things were better when she was around and we're talking about in the studio yeah rehearsal rooms on the tours she was this sort of grounding kind of cool presence she's just dead sweet everybody loves her but she's smart and you know she's very very smart so you found your person Johnny I did yeah and you you ended up I mean, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because it feels reading your book like, well, this was inevitable. Of course this was going to happen.

But actually, you know, you were really driven and determined as well. Because this story, when you got together with this mist, it was like you, all these things that you did that were driven by you. Yeah. There was a sense of, you sought out Morrissey, you found out where he lived, randomly, you turned up at his door. Yeah. you went to the record company

and you literally kind of snuck in there and spoke to the label boss and said you've never heard anything like this here's our demo tape well I saw him last week and he reminded me I literally grabbed him by the cuff he was trying to get away from me

it's a Friday afternoon and I'd seen him on television on this clip and so I knew what you looked like this is Jeff Travis yeah so yeah I did have a sort of sense of destiny I did have a sense of destiny and things unfolding but but which sounds like sort of quite freewheeling but like I mentioned to you earlier there was a sort of

underlying desperation but not because my life was particularly terrible but it was because I was so idealistic about being in a band and making records and I just so wanted to do it. Yeah. The idea of it not happened. happening you know you know it was definitely felt let's put this way I wasn't always swimming with the tide yeah and you know so all of that stuff finding the Smith's manager Joe and um it was sort of always felt like I was on a mission really always on a mission yeah yes you've got a lot of forward propulsion I think in your career because it seems that you're always looking on to the next thing in a healthy way I think yeah that actually

and even I find it interesting, you know, when you sign with Rough Trade and things are going well for you. And then when you release, even something like this Charming Man was like, that feels like that was a conscious decision. Like, okay, maybe we need to, this will be a breakthrough record for us. Do you know what, I have to absolutely give Jeff Travis, who just mentioned from Rough Trade, the credit for that. because quite often some of these things yeah what funnily enough i i'm a little like that to this day that i had to be told that that was the breakthrough song did you oh oh you're not feeling good oh it'll be all right guy looks like you doesn't he looks like a Bye bye.

Oh, poor guy. Yeah, go on. Well, in the case of this charming man, for example, I can't take the credit for writing the music and the guitar part, but when we recorded it, to my memory, only days after we'd written it, because it was written because we needed an uptempo song for the upcoming John Peel session so it was a little bit like needs must. Right.

When we recorded it, Jeff came down and he said, that's the next single. And I was a bit like, really? Really? He's like, yep, that's the next single. I was like, all right. And there's quite a few examples of that over the years. I mean, there's a reverse as well where I've sort of gone, yeah, that's a single, that should be the opening track on the album.

That just comes with, I don't know, skill. Do you know when you're writing something and you think, particularly when you were with the smith did you think okay this is special like how soon as now or you know there is a light and stuff do you know is that do you get a feeling certainly with there is a light when the band played it for the first time uh oh wow it was so high on a natural high you know we recorded it was about whatever it was about 11 a m it was the start of a working day the window, the studio, RAC studio had windows in it. So it was light and bright and, you know, I was like,

take two, we have absolutely got a cracker here. Let's do another couple of takes just to make sure, and maybe take three was the one or take four, but, you know, by the second take, I just couldn't believe what I was hearing the way. The chemistry, the band, you know, what the you know particularly the vocal line and the lyrics and what Andy was doing and Mike it was just I had so many moments like that but I have had those moments with

other bands as well like dashboard with Modest Mouse and yeah and as you know love is stronger than death with by the The which is a different emotion but you know I did talk about this in the book this is absolutely true it was a very very poignant song Love is stronger than death and people who like it it it means a lot to them and i was playing harmonica on that and i was literally in tears trying to when when when i was playing the harmonica part i was crying as i was listening to it because it's such a such a deep song that um so yeah i've had i've had i mean i'm not always blubbing no but that moment i think you're right it's an alchemy isn't it that can

happen in a room sometimes and i'm conscious that you're someone who feel quite instinctive as a musician a lot of what you've done has been very instinctive and it's led to some of your best work but then you were found yourself in this situation where you were sort of the manager as well I think back to when you write about that I'm kind of like this is mental but then interestingly it feels like you were the engine of the Smiths if you like that's how I view it I'm not saying you said that that's my view on it yeah and I feel when I look at get back and I see Paul McCartney's role yeah

I think, oh Johnny was Paul McCartney. Do you know what I mean? You always need that person, don't you? You're saying, come on guys. Well, I was so resourceful as well, because the thing with that was that at the start of the band, that resourcefulness and that drive and just my canny ability to, you know, get the label and get the manager and find all of that stuff. I absolutely love that role in it because, you know, I was good at it. And when you're doing something you're good at, and of course I was in love with what the band

were and what we're about to be and everything. So it was no hardship. But the problem was that over four or five years, we became a very, very, very big band. And it was a little bit like, and I was out of my depth. And then the band, well, a couple of members of the band insisted on me that continuing to be my role.

And not only was that untenable, but it hurt my feelings. You know, like, no. I've got enough on my shoulders, thank you very much. Just being me and being the guitarist and producing the records with Stephen Street and all of that. So it was very complicated, but that's part of it, of it being too much to ask, being put on me. Not only was it too much to ask, which anyone can see, but the fact that it was put on me, I really took umbrage at that. That was like, you're supposed to care about me.

that was on an emotional that was hurtful you know yeah amongst lots of other things that were going on I think also with the Smith I've come to think about because they usually don't really can be I think it's old news to me but you know I know about the love of the band but I've come to think of it as now as a little bit like you know a bit like a sort of creative explosion or something that happens with the atom right where where you have this energy in it and you look back we were so prolific say just that factor alone and we created so much of such good quality if you're a fan not everybody loved the band but it had

this internal energy that was so combustive that in that just like any atomic activity it includes the seeds of its burnout so that's so interesting all the stuff we did like on stage and off stage and in the studio and everything that was part of the band any other maybe band would have made me they would have done that over eight years yeah or 10 years but the fact that it was this it was so combustive that's the word um whewf like a star sort of burning out that's sort of kind of the way i see it now really i really hope you love part one of this week's walking the dog if you want to hear the second part of our chat it'll be out on Thursday so whatever you do don't miss it and remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week