Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Johnny Marr (Part Two)

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

In part two of Emily and Ray’s walk with Johnny Marr, there’s more from an extraordinary life in music, from the Manchester childhood that shaped him to the career that followed and the experiences that have stayed with him along the way.Johnny shares more about his upbringing, his relationship with music and what it has meant to spend much of his life doing the thing he first fell in love with as a boy. There’s also plenty more on a career that has taken him from The Smiths through countless collaborations and on to his acclaimed solo work.And it turns out guitars aren’t the only thing Johnny can’t resist. When a stray football appears during the walk, all thoughts of being a legendary musician are temporarily forgotten as he immediately has to give it a kick.If you haven’t already, catch up on part one of Emily’s walk with Johnny. His new album, The Age of Everything, is out now, and the anniversary edition of his autobiography, Set the Boy Free, will be released on 22 October.Follow Emily:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyrebeccadeanX: https://twitter.com/divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich JarmanArtwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with the wonderful Johnny Marr. Johnny's new album The Age of Everything is out now and it's genuinely brilliant. So do give that a listen. And by the way, do remember to give Walking the Dog a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Johnny and Ray Ray. Do you know what? I couldn't agree more and I think you're... I'm going to talk about what you've gone on to do obviously because I think what's so interesting about that is you've got a very healthy relationship with your... past I think right which is that you can have a relationship whether it's a romantic

relationship a professional relationship or whatever a job and that can exist in its time as a perfect relationship with the beginning of middle and end you know it doesn't need to be revisited and nor are you looking back on it it's not it's not negative to move on from it is what I think no but pretty philosophical because so young when it happened I won't lie yeah as a 20, all the rest, through the rest of my 20s, I was, I felt like, rightly or wrongly that I was almost constantly being asked to justify it. Yes, I see that. In the media, through the years of electronic and doing stuff with Petschup boys. And then the, my poor partners, I noticed it more

for them, like, you know, Matt Johnson and Bernard, who've got a real deep sense of themselves. I'm very proud of them. Did you feel like you had Smith's baggage that you were bringing into the relationship? Well, yeah. And they had it. They had to deal with it. And Luckily, as I say, they've got enough of a sense of themselves and they're also my mate. But almost every interview, I don't want to be bleating about it. But I think what I'm saying though is that having that experience, though, and I understand it. It's like having sort of Brad Pitt as an ex. It's just a bit annoying because it's like it becomes you don't want it to define your work.

And actually, don't you think that what you've gone on to achieve with these various collaborations so stands out on its own right now. Well, yeah, I mean, I've been given that it sort of, it's turned out okay. What I was thinking, though, the way I've looked at it is it helped me be philosophical. It was almost a good, it was almost a good thing that I had to go through a lot of that, really, because it's, I don't know, it sort of toughens you up. Yeah, it sort of gives you a sort of gives you a little bit of steel, I think. because I've kind of, again, you know,

I've been very, very privileged, but it is, you know, you do sort of, it is growing up in public a little bit. It really is, because you were so young, and obviously when you left, you had a phone call pretty soon afterwards from Paul McCartney, which must have been amazing. I wonder if that made you think, oh, it's going to be okay, actually, I'm Johnny Mark.

Kind of, yeah. It did, because that was within minutes of it, literally, within minutes of it being announced, on the radio that the band had split up but leading up to that because it wasn't an impulsive decision you know i had a lot of dread and worry about it but it just that shows you how necessary it was i didn't just you know it wasn't a decision taken lightly but yeah it has worked out but i think all of this stuff you know i mean obviously there are things that people have to deal with in life that are much much much more challenging so you have to have it put it in a perspective

and it's part of being in you know also it's part of being in a bit very big band there's always some major thing happens. Yeah. Johnny, I should say, has just seen a football. I'm just going to tell people what you did. That was the most hilarious thing where you were in the middle of talking. You're getting a bit emotional about your past and then you saw a football and you couldn't resist it.

And that tells me this person probably had trials for Man City. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of symbolic. Those guys passed it over to me. it over to me yeah well the football culture thing was it's part of you know it's a funny thing because ladism in the night is when we think about it we you know generally any sort of any sort of you know sort of fairly I think that's very loud modern thinking but any sort of deep you know any sort of self-respecting modern

man the word ladism you're going to go ugh uh-oh okay for lots reasons we don't need you know but but what it but what but in that there's a thing um you know because of my background where i come from and uh uh grown up in the 70s and all of that when when being a lad had some definitely was had lots of appeal yeah it really had lots of appeal and i grew up a lot of the lads that i used to look nearly always older lads that i used to look nearly always older lads that i to observe at the football, they were just dead, they had a lot to him, they were dead cool. They had what young people, what your kids would call main character energy. Do you know that expression?

No. I've heard young people using it, I like it, it's main character energy. So Liam Gallagher's got it. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. I think you've got it. But I think you've got it in a different way, which I like, which is, I have a thing I call Quiet Kings. Can I be a quiet king? You're a quiet king.

Just one day a week. Do you know what I mean by that? You know noisy, there are loud kings and quiet kings. Oh, no. That's brilliant. I would describe you as a quiet king. They're the most interesting ones. That's always like, ah.

So you're quietly getting along and you'll be like, oh, here's Johnny. Not sort of walking. And it's like your guitar playing in a weird way. Because I think your musicianship is very much about, you know, it was a bit of a reaction, conscious or not, but it wasn't here, here everybody, look at me, this is my three minutes. This might be a bit corny, Emily, but to say it to a woman, but I always really revered the women that were around me. More so than my mates, really, and I look back now and go, well, that was, it's quite, it's just a way I am, but it's really quite handy and I always have done really. So such, you know, I mean, it's obvious to say because my mother was so young, we had like, sort of quite, you know, sort of still have a good relationship.

But then, you know, with my sister being me and her being so close, even right into my teenage years, and then Angie and then having my daughter, but also worked with, yeah, I just, I'd like to think that, I, I, I'd like to think that, I, I'd hope that a lot of things from the women in my life have rubbed off on me. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Well, what I can say is having absorbed your energy and presence and music and work for a long time since I was probably about 12 or 13, even when it was fashionable to do so, you never had toxic male energy. Do you know what I mean? That it was cool for a while to be like that if you're a guy. And I'm sure there were some guys that look back on that slight loaded culture and think, oh, God, I'm so sorry.

sorry, that wasn't me. Yeah. Yeah. That was something I felt you resisted. And it's interesting, looking at the work you went on to do after you left dismiss, left is a complicated word, but we'll leave it there. Yeah. But I think it was interesting to me that you were putting yourself in a position there.

Instead of saying, right, I'm going to set up a bound all around me. It's a bit like leaving a relationship. I actually think it's very emotionally healthy what you did. You didn't go into a rebound situation. No. Which was smart because you're doing these collaborations with people you really like and respect and producing great work with them. You know, as you say, you work with the pretenders. You work with the verily.

You know, people I actually love. Yeah. And loved at the time. You know. But you're constantly putting yourself in a situation, I think, which is probably quite grounding. and healthy is, hi, I'm the new boy, even though you're Johnny Marr, you're still entering their space, aren't you? Yeah, no, exactly. And I'm, um, you know, that's one, I guess it's, there's so many things that, you know, so working with other singers, say, with Chrissy and then

with Bernard Sumner and Matt Johnson, which was all at the same time, by the way. Um, you know, I was in the, they're an electronic at the same time. I was in two bands and I was still, I was working with Chrissy and I think what I look back and I go well my ability to work with those singers isn't just about me playing the guitar it's probably to do my personality as well yeah I I want them to be the leader in a way really you know even though none of those people give off particular leader vibes like you know they might not not thank me for that but um but those are the That's my role.

Not only could they sing and write great lyrics. And Bernard did Blue Monday or we did get the message with electronic and what I did with Matt Johnson. I mean, that's what I value. At the end of the day, I listen to what we did. I go, wow, we did some really good work there. And at the time, it was like life and death for me. But I sort of got a sort of supportive energy about it.

Aside from playing the guitar, You know, that role, that collaborative role, I don't really have to be the boss. I really sense that in you. Yeah. I think if you were in the Big Brother House and I accept that that will never happen because you're Johnny Maher. That's an idea. My PR-stroke-plugger person's here. That was a joke, Tom.

He just raised his thumb. Yeah. But if you were in the Big Brother House, the thing is you would win, Johnny. Would I? You do realise that. Really? Yes, because you've got what always comes out in those reality shows is the person with some sort of, it's always the people who win. What people seem to like and respond to is authenticity and honesty, even difficult honesty sometimes.

You know, it's the people that don't talk behind backs, but they confront. And like you strike me as someone who, I don't know if it's a Mancunian thing, but you don't have a problem with difficult conversations. No, I don't actually. I think that's um I'm a Scorpio so what what I know about Scorpio is that's pretty on brand when I'm born on I'm born on Halloween oh listen anyone who's worked with me or my mates or whatever hearing you say that will go bloody hell he's you can't stop him with difficult conversations like first thing in the morning until last thing at night Jesus he just want to talk about Gogglebox and I'm all about I'm all about

everything is I'm a bit yeah I'm a bit far on sometimes. But are you quite good if you're working with someone and you're in a creative space and there's always going to be some creative differences. Are you quite good at saying let's say you're working you've been working with guerrillas yeah and if you're working with Damon Albon and you have a different opinion to him on something how the musical direction of something are you comfortable having those conversations saying look I'd like to hear what you're saying I'm not saying that happened with Damon but it's an example of someone you're working with. I think what

I can be diplomatic and I think I've got in my mind I think I've got a real I've got logic in that in that arena in the working in me being in bands whether it's at a sound check or particularly in the studio. Yeah. I think to me is I've got a good sort of logic and that's sort of why I was able to be a pretty decent producer I think in that. I just go look just hear me out. Hear me out. Hear me out. Hear me out. Let's try this. Let's try that. It's not about my will. Say Matt Johnson, for example, I was passionate about the band and my role in the band. But I've got enough about me to know that it's Matt's vision.

I hear you. So I think I'm able to, there does come a point where I'm able to subjugate, if that's my own ego. I think so. But that isn't because I'm such a virtuous person. That's just logic to me, really. Well, it's also because you're more, you're concerned about the end product.

that's your goal. I understand that. Yeah. I've said a couple of times that when you're working with people, this occurred to me on the the unusual occasion of me writing a couple of songs with Farrell Williams on this album for this movie rather

because we didn't know each other and obviously within minutes and he was brilliant. Did you really get on with Farrell? I knew that from actually working with him rather than his reputation, then obviously his reputation is what it is. Yeah. But it was, you know, he delivers what you think he is really, you know. I mean, just can't stop him coming up with melodies and just brilliant.

So, you know, because the thing about that is well, working with somebody in the studio, that's my domain, that's my microcosm, that's my planet. And I understand the rarefied air in that situation. So I am able to, I can make a judgment about a person that's pretty right on in that, because I've been doing it since I was a kid and it's a it's my space if you like I see so you know when I say when I say Billy Irish is amazing it it's really the judgment over over six or seven hours in the studio and so with Farrell that we'll get back to this point I think that it occurred to me because I didn't

know whether he was a fan of indie rock I didn't know he was aware of my reputation but because we were pretty much strangers we started writing straight away on this couple of songs and I think this is a bit like being in a rowing, a rowboat with someone you've only just met. And you have to be in sync the two of you is rowing. And we've got to both do what gets us to the horizon. Yes. And that came as an instinct to me that analogy.

It wasn't some intellectual thing. It just sort of came out of my body, I think, like this feeling sort of from my heart, my solar plexus. I just got this image of like, oh yeah, and the speakers are a little bit like like the horizon. Sometimes I can have this energy where I'm like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-me, and I'll be like really hyper and go, I know what to do on this, and blah-da-b-b-b.

And because they love me and they know me, they'll sort of go, right, I want to step back for 20 minutes and let him do this thing. And that will end up being maybe the chorus of getting away with it or something like that. And there's this trust involved really. But I think also the people I've worked with are very, very smart. They've got emotional intelligence where they know like... Well, it's the process, isn't it?

And you've got to be... I'm an Arsenal fan, so I believe in trust the process. God knows we had to. And he was right, in fairness. We did trust the process. But I think that's very important creatively, isn't it? That it's that thing of... A friend of mine's a screenwriter, and she always says,

you know, it's not shit, it's just unfinished. And she also says, no one likes writing, everyone likes having written, which I think is a good thing to bear a mind. It's like you're going to have difficult points creating music, aren't you? Where you feel, this is shit, I don't want to do this song anymore. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's exactly right. There are a lot of helpful aphorisms and thoughts and sayings.

Yeah. What did Bruce Springsteen said, a great one to you? Yeah, he talked about, when we're having dinner, and we were discussing, which, by the way, is the only time I've had dinner with Springsteen. And I may have a few times,

but we were sat. And Chrissy was talking, we were playing arenas. In fact, we were playing stadiums at that point, but Chrissy was talking about why she didn't really like arenas. And he went into this idea about how, back then you would buy a physical ticket, because it's within the 80s and he was saying that when someone went to the box office

or got a ticket or went to the records or whatever bought your ticket for the concert that was a contract between you and them every single person you have a contract and never i never forgot that is it just an amazing thing yeah um isn't that great i absolutely love that yeah it is a contract isn't it it absolutely you've always delivered on your contract with me johnny i just want to tell you that Fox Red Lab, so sweet. My friend has Rhodesian Ridgeback and I was because the colour was making me think. Yeah, it's too small for a... Yeah.

Is he fully grown? Yeah, he's nine. He's nice. He's quite a small lab. Yeah. He's ever so sweet, isn't he, Johnny? He's got a really pretty face. Yeah, he's a good looking fellow.

He knows how to charm people. Oh, I can see he's a real people dog. You'll pick up his ball and throat for him. Oh, that's great though. Does you, is you all right if you, all right? Do you know, oh my friend's got treats? Look, it's a bit, hey, what's this? Can we give him a treat?

Yeah, I think. What's this? Oh, he's so into the ball, right? Yeah, it's very fixed on the ball. Yeah. Right, bring them, oh my God, it's so good. Is he quite food motivated? Do you want this as well? Is he quite food motivated?

Yeah, so am I. Are you too? Yeah, but I don't steal other people's food. Oh, I do. Do you? Yeah. annoying. Really nice to meet you.

See you. I quite like that, Johnnie. One of the things I like about getting a dog is those sort of interactions with people that aren't complicated.

What's yours called? How old? I think people drop their kind of defences a little bit. That's it. That's it. And when I've noticed you'll get some old strict businessman who sees Ray

and you know what I always find heartbreaking because Ray's so fluffy and there's something about him that makes you sort of connect with your childhood self, like watching a Disney creature or something. And I see these businessmen and it really breaks my heart that for a moment I see a smile on their face. Because they're not as confident as you in their masculinity, they, suddenly you see them buttoning up. So stupid little thing, it looks like a silly brush. And I think, no, go back to that

first reaction. That was pure. That was you. Yeah. Do you know what I mean by that? Well, also, some people are just so besotted with animals that they just melt. If you've got a, if you've got dogs and they come up to you, even if they don't have dogs, everything just drops away and they're just so open and sweet.

Yeah. Well, dogs don't have baggage. They have no baggage. Every day, your Rhodesian Ridgeback start every day like a rebooted iPhone. They don't say, you say, come on, we're going to the park, or we're going to eat. They don't say, I'm just actually quite pissed off

about something you said in 1992. But you know what amazes me about dogs, they celebrate everything. It's like, oh, you're putting your jacket on. That's the greatest thing I've ever seen. Oh, you've opened the cupboard. What might happen next? Amazing. Oh, fantastic.

Oh, you've just picked up this little fluffy toy. Amazing. They celebrate everything in life, which is so great. Why not? You know, they're amazing. They're beautiful. Yeah, I love them. They keep your, Catlam Moran, who I interviewed recently said, they're like furry fit bits, keeping your energy levels up all the time.

Yeah. Well, with ours, with the ridgebacks, they, the other thing about them is they're so chilled out once, if they've been out and had a good run for 45 minutes, you have to do that. Then for the rest of the day, they're just like hanging out with you. So they're not docile. No. But they're super pack animals. So, yeah, but it also gets, it gets you out and about. I mean, when I'm doing this sort of, the work I'm doing now,

promoting the age of everything. Promoting the age of everything. Promoting and interviews and radio and stuff like that. I, you know, I don't seem as much as I like. But I sort of miss them. But yeah, but they're down here today, in fact, do you know what? Angie's in the park somewhere. Are you fucking kidding me?

No. Please come with me. I know. Can we ring her? Yeah, I'll give her a bell in a minute. Let's talk about the age of everything, which I've had the pleasure of listening to, and I honestly loved it. Thank you, really.

You know, I'm not going to lie, you're pushing it an open door here, because whenever there's something new of yours, I'm there, I'm in. Great, great. But what I love about this is that, the sense, like, really strong sense I got was you feel very liberated on it, musically. And I think what it was to do with is,

I felt there's a very Johnny Mar sound but I never had that sense of you feeling oh God that's a bit Smith that's a bit Johnny Mark because you think well yeah of course it's Johnny Mark because you are Johnny Mark yeah it feels so authentically you this album well

obviously that sounds that's great to hear I think a friend of mine well a new acquaintance has used the word emphatic and she's an artist and sort of thinks quite conceptually. And she was working some stuff on the album and she said, but I've been listening to the album, it sounds very emphatic. And I like that description of it

because I understand that because simply because a lot of the tempos are up on my stuff. My solo stuff are deliberately trying to keep it having energy. And because I think there's a thing that when you get, get to a certain point in your life or career that, you know, I don't want to ease into mid-tempo mediocrity, or certainly any kind of mid-jocritity, obviously, but this sort of mid-tempo kind of on-wee, you know, I think it's just dressed up as reflective music. It seems, it's always... Well, the mid-tempo en-wee is a great name for a band.

Isn't it? Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah. But yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's sort of like, It takes, to me, there's a challenge in writing stuff that has got a certain exuberance in it and sort of snags you and it's actually harder to do it and it not be nath. You're right because your music is, I think you're absolutely right. I can see that there's something more challenging about writing perhaps more complex music. That's not to discard anything that's more simplistic. Yeah. But more complex music can make it fundamentally optimistic, which I think your music is. Yeah, oh, it is optimistic.

I think it is optimistic, yeah. It's defiantly optimistic. Well, I like your description of it because I went into it with a little bit of sort of being okay with, well, a lot of being okay with who I am, you see. So there's a song on it called It's Time, which quite a lot of people have made a point of saying sounds like the Smith's right. And I won't lie, I know that, I can hear that, right?

But there's been there's so many times in my personal life when I'm playing all the time and you know playing with the football's on and got guitar with me very annoying for people in the room with me when a film's on so I'm always noodling all the time. Does Angie say oh come on Johnny? They got so used to it and my son does it as well because he's a really good guitar playing. So anyway I'm doing that so I'm sort of always kind of coming up with stuff and I'm always coming up with riffs that sound like that but occasionally just on this fact of being all right with who I am or where I'm at is you know occasionally something comes out and I'm

like I'm going what am I going to just like throw that away because it sounds like me and I have done that in the past I mean I've said it before but in electronic Bernard you know when I used to discard something and say it sounds too like Johnny Marie go he's going everybody's going to blame me Stop it. Please play something that sounds like you. But when you're younger, you've got that kind of baggage and you've got those sort of... And I think that's your prerogative as well to be like, I'm not going to be put into a box. Whereas now, I mean, by no means do you want to trade on it or you want to be a...

You know, you want to be a parody of yourself. But with that song, It's Time. It just demanded to... I thought a lot of people are going to like this. So sod it. Yeah. And it is a really great song. It's turned out of...

The thing is there are so many great songs on that album. When I was listening to it the first time, thinking, oh, I like spin, I like its time, I like Aphelia, I like Beyond the rain. Yeah. And then I was thinking, I kind of love everything on this album. It feels very cohesive album. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Well, a big part of that was a bit of a boring thing, but the big part of it was because me and the band went out and played it in front of audiences.

Is that right? Without, really, before, it was entirely finished, in fact. So I'd go out with songs like Ophelia and I was kind of... and I was kind of I was kind of improvising the words a little bit because there's nothing quite like being in front of a couple of thousand people if you sing a line that sucks you know about it. Is it like being a comic? Do you know what I mean?

That kind of feedback. That's exactly like that. Is it? How do you know it, Johnny? Oh man. Honestly, and also things like just before we were going out on stages with one song, do you know my favourite song at the moment is Beyond the Rain

I love Beyond the Rain and it was called something else and it was just writing it on the set list at sound checks and before a gig as I say this sort of in a way you can look at it as like research and development yeah but when I wrote it on the set list it was called

something else and I just thought that's not a decent enough title and I don't know why it didn't occur to me to call it Beyond the Rain when I sing Beyond the Rain like eight times in the song. Do you think that's you sometimes again second guessing? Always. You know what I mean?

Oh, that's too obvious. O' that's too obvious. I sound too much like Johnny Moore from the Smith. Hang on, I am Johnny Moore. Yeah, yeah. You know. One of the things about, I'm not my this is a little tangential, but one of the things about not being hung over and fucked up is that it, you know, I mean, obviously you're

not always brilliant, but this, I don't know whether you do this, I think my, but I have a sort of instinct that sometimes comes out physically, where I have a physical, about an idea. So say the album title, my point being, like, you've got a, like, a body intelligence, a physical intelligence that if you, if you're clear and you're not on over, you're not full of sugar and you're not too caffeinated and all of this sort of stuff. You can rely on your sort of body's intelligence. I mean, there is a thing. That is the thing about neuropeptins.

You know about neuropeptines? I think it's called neuropeptins. Something pepsins. Well, these are, these are like molecules or, for one of the term, that your liver is surrounded by and your heart, right? And they are receptors. and they so that's why you have a gut feeling about something so what's a good feeling or what does your heart tell you so your body actually has this thing which is almost more reliable than the brain because the brain is so full of like whatever

critical faculties so sometimes with some things in writing songs I am able to if I'm second-guessing myself I kind of I sort of listen to my body sometimes and go well what is your you know what is your body telling you but that's no good if you hung over. I think you're right. Because your body's just telling you to eat pizza. Do you think people, but the fact that you don't drink, you're immensely clean living and have been for a while. Yeah. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because look, I get it. I haven't drunk for about seven years, I think. There's no dark story behind it. I just thought, I'm going to prioritise my days over my nights. It was literally as simple as that. Yeah. And I think in your case, though, no one's really going to question me,

but in your case I can imagine people think oh there's some dark story why he's yeah me and Ozzy Osbourne hanging the kids off a building in the 80s which could have happened he didn't me maybe maybe me and Robbie Williams in the 90s maybe but Robbie dodged the bullet there have you met him yeah is he is nice yeah I think I met him once it well you probably did he strike you I bet he seems decent doesn't he no but the funny thing with, I've only met Robbie Williams, I think we've only met once, and it was in the 90s, in,

from what I gather, it was his drinking drugs hell. And I've just got to say, it didn't look like hell to me. You look, pretty much like drinking drugs pop star heaven to me, what I saw. He was living his best fucking life.

He was having a great time, you know what I mean? Just want to remind him of that. But you know what? I also think, listen, it's not like, I spent my fair amount of time at various London members clubs

and do you know what I mean? In the 90s? you've all got a pass but I think the key thing is when you start getting your shit together and I never wanted to be that woman who was like the slightly a do you know what I mean at all man I don't want to be that old person go and rack them up kids well and in my world as well it's a real cliche for a start that appealed to me right but no I um no I definitely I definitely uh milked it and the and the the you know it was the the the booze is in the party and particularly like you know if I do have a regret I wish I'd sort of knock that

on the head a little bit earlier but when you were talking earlier before about you know about this drive that I've had and putting the Smith together and all of that um to me um you know it's very nice the things you were saying but to me like if I look back on that almost like it's a different person I know if I do I see it as almost like a creative expression I'm only saying this in case it's of any interest of people but instead of being about you know like how you know whatever instinctive I was and but because I see the two things as being interlinked that I never use the word sober there's just something about I don't I just I'd rather teetotal is my it's a bit LA

isn't it there's something sort of sanctimonious about the word sober I'm a sober you know yeah I agree with you it's a You want your sober journey. I think, oh, your sober journey. Oh, mate. So there's something that's, that's helpfully English about, about not using that. So anyway, I reckon that it's coming from the same place for me where it's more progressive

and more creative. I'm able to be, not just in my music, but just in everything. Like being clean and running and everything, I know it's logically smarter, but to me it helps me put my foot on the gas a bit better. And it's coming from that same place as when I formed the Smiths and when I was in whatever, doing whatever I was doing and that energy had as a teenager. I think some people are good at painting. I mean, you know, my thing is the guitar, but I think the, it's a creative energy in doing really.

Yeah, well it's your thing that's when you're in flow state you've got to find something that puts you in flow state That's right. Yeah, it's not always easy. Well in fact it's bloody It's it's it's you have to apply yourself to do it. I do anyway Application really. No, I've always sensed that from you. You're someone who's like I say you've got a lot of forward propulsion, you know? Yeah, that's important and the boozing and drugs and everything went completely contrary to that at point in my life when I saw that. But you had to do it, Johnny, because you were in the fucking Smiths. It would have been a bit weird. And I think you might have gone a bit strange in it as you got older.

Do you know what I mean? If you haven't, it's an outlet. And also, let's be honest, fame, I heard this recently, fame is trauma. Really? Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So fame is a form of trauma. That's interesting.

Because it's so weird to be in that position. And why we have so many people so screwed up now is that everybody's bloody famous. So everyone is experiencing that trauma. Wow. Where it's not a natural state, is it? It's not natural for us to be scrutinized and watched by everyone. It's constant surveillance.

And you can't complain about it because it's so lionised and with it comes so much privilege, of course, that, you know, to complain about it is really churlish and a bit shitty and all of that. But, yeah, so I've, you know, over the years known, got friends who are way more famous than me and it's quite handy to have friends who are way more famous because you sort of look at it and you go, you kind of go,

that looks like an awful lot of admin. Mental admin. And Raymond's just totally chival. Can I just show you what... I mean, my dog is loves you. You've got an energy he likes, Quiet King. Well, I think if dogs quite king, yeah. I think I'm suspicious of anyone dogs don't like.

So am I, Johnny. There's something wrong with them. And I'm right about that. I'm a bit suspicious of people who don't like dogs. Are you? It's like people who don't like music. Have you ever heard anyone who says, I don't like music? It's not just because I'm a musician. That is really weird.

It's harder to not like music. to not like music. What was weird is two men looked over and looked very delighted to see you and then they heard you saying, I don't like music. So they'll now tell their friends. I knew it.

I knew that about him. Phony. He's such a fake. I'll tell you my favorite is when Michael Owen, who I had on this podcast, he was actually very sweet. He says, you know, his famous thing, Michael Owen says, I loathe films.

Michael, who said that? Michael Owen said I loathe films. Oh, the footballer? Who's that? I thought they just wave at you. Yeah. I thought that was your family. No.

Or members of. I know what you're like, you're Irish Catholics. Yeah, it could be. Could be, yeah. Yeah, Michael Owen said, I loathe films. He said he's only ever seen six films, one of which was Seabiscuit. Oh, wow, really?

Well, I'm glad he didn't... Wow. Just... And did he say that out loud? Yeah, he said on my podcast, he said, I loathe films. He said, I've only seen six films. And his daughter Gemma, who's really nice, was like, he's a weirdo, he's a weirdo, he hates films.

But he said he's got the energy of an athlete he can't keep still. And to be fair, you play guitar throughout films, I bet. I bet you're in the corner going like that. I am, yeah, I do it all the time. It is, yeah. It only occurred to me a few years ago how people who live with guitar, players. They just said this plink, plink, plink all the time and they just sort of are alright with it. I've been very, but I have been very aware of how fortunate I am in that

regard with the people in my life who I've just put up with it. Because you think, oh, it must be great, you know, glamorous being around guitarist, but my sister and certainly my... And even though to everyone else it's like Johnny Moore, you're like, yeah, it gets old. Yeah, yeah. It gets really old. Just like, don't, don't, dun, ding, tuning up over breakfast. Before we, I let you go and I really don't want to let you go, I'm not going to lie. I just loved my chat with you. This is fun, isn't there? Oh please, would you be my friend now, Johnny? Absolutely, of course. Because that's going to happen, I'm afraid. Did you know, it's like completely ignored the fact that you're in Arsenal fan? Yeah, I know. I felt really bad. That's how good we're getting along. Can I tell you something? In fairness, where did I tell you I grew up? Well, North London. Yeah. Oh no, of course I get it. So what I'm saying is it would be worse. Wouldn't you rather that than I supported Man City?

I cannot bear that. Someone grew up in Highgate, well, I all support United. I get it, yeah. No, I get it. Was it Highbury you grew up, not Islington? We moved there briefly. We grew up in Highgate and then we moved to Islington. So you went to school in Highgate?

Yes. That must have been great. I loved, not me? It was. It was really nice, actually, when I look back. No, I say that because coming from the provinces, I had a real keen sort of awareness of, not the privilege, but, of growing, you know, being a teenager in London and, you know, LWT being just all these, I'm not talking about things like the VNA, but just pop culture being right on your doorstep. There are advantages from, there are loads of advantages to being in the provinces, one step removed, you know, you know, hence the fact, hence the Hacienda and factory and, Smithson, New Wood and all that, that could only have happened to be in one step removed.

So there were disadvantages. However, you know, because I used to come down to me and Angie's to boat down on the train. And did you have a sense of we were in London and it felt different and absolutely. It was different. Yeah. I think and also particularly there was a certain kind of confidence in the eighties in London I think. 100% although you know what was interesting and I think that's why I got very into your band because I think what was difficult about the 80s it was a great era of it in some as a teenager growing up then it was also so sort of materialistic and Miami Vice and money and brash and do you know what I mean all of those values and I think why would I

certainly got very into your music because I felt maybe it's okay to like books or you know what I mean like yeah yeah like I don't really aspire towards these things other people are aspiring to but I feel I have to because I'm too frightened to feel different so I mean there's so many that the things that Morris was singing about in those regards I was so proud of, still am and really admired not just the lyrical, his lyrical skill, but those subjects and the literary influences, that was, that was a massive sort of pride for me. Was it? Oh yeah, I'm really, really proud of that. And I'm really impressed, still really impressed,

Yeah, and it's great. But it was also, I think, with your music as well, crucially, there was an optimism to it. So it didn't feel like, which is why it irritates me when people, and I think it's sort of as people who don't really understand or haven't listened properly to your music. You use words like miserable. It's like sort of the sun or something not getting it.

Exactly, yeah. But it was dry, it was funny, it was witty, you know, and crucially the music, there was an optimism to it as well. Oh, absolutely, and the wit. There's a wit in the music as well. I mean, even the way Andy played the bass, there's an audaciousness in all of it. You know, it wasn't, oh yeah, I mean,

do you know that phrase, grab the shadow and missed a substance? Oh, I love that. I love that. That's great. Yeah, some author said that about it. I love that. I think that happens quite a lot in the course.

culture because the actual substance of the band there was so much humour in it. Yeah. And we're and self-depreciation. Yeah. You know, so it's so it we were working on quite a few levels which is just utterly brilliant. Yeah, no. Well you're still off. Yeah, thank you. Which is so great. Yeah, it's good. It's good having things to live up to. I think you're right. It does. It keeps you on your metal if you've got the energy for it. If you've got the if you've got the stomach for it, it's good for you. That makes you too complacent. Well, I think like I say what tells me everything is that you've got such a healthy relationship with your past, I think, which is that, and you know, that pressure that people put, I always think it's so weird when people say to you, oh, the Smith's going to reform, and it's like, are you going to, is it going to be a reunion? I thought, well, firstly, that's, to misunderstand everything about that band. But also, I sort of think, actually, how you've described it is right. Really amazing things happen, whether it's the office or faulty towers or the smiths, you know. And you have to love it for what it was.

Can't keep trying to pull it. It's like, no, that's not the point of it. It was that, as you say, things that burn very brightly, then that's not sustainable. It's designed to burn very brightly and sort of be life-changing to the people who enjoy it, but it wouldn't be what it is if it lasted for 30 years. Exactly. It is like a star.

Yeah. And I think with what's happened with Oasis recently has brought it into, you know. Yes, that's interesting. But their brothers. And it's a completely different situation. I mean, the narrative, the band needed to change for them, for their agenda with the band, certainly I know for Noel, he's really, he's really happy that the narrative's changed. But you're talking about something completely different when it's brothers. Totally different.

It's totally different. And I love, the way Noel speaks about you, your romance, I find it very, it makes me a bit tearful. I love it. I love men being honest about how much they love each other as friends. Do you know what I mean? I think he's getting kind of soft in his old age. Well, this dedication, have you read it, that dedication? I did really, yeah.

It was really moving. Yeah, he's done, he's, he's an interesting guy. He's someone who's not afraid to evolve. Yeah. Well, he's had enough guitars off you over the years. Exactly. Johnny, I've loved this. Oh, back out you.

Back out you. Yeah, a lovely thing. Yeah, let's find an excuse to get together. I love it. What a special man you are, genuinely. My new mate. It also smells pretty good, you know. It's unusual, isn't it, for dogs?

It does. I like it. You keep him clean. I can't believe this is your first dog. Why? Because you kind of really got it right with him, didn't you? Or maybe he got, you know, it's like... Johnny, that's made my day.

Because he's so well trained, isn't he? And it's like so not needy. Not needy in the slightest. Oh, Johnny. He's had the best time with you. Well, you say goodbye to Johnny. Bye bye, my mate. I hope to see you again.

Bye-bye. Oh, calming. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.