Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jojo Moyes (Part Two)

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

It’s time for the second part of our walk with bestselling author Jojo Moyes and her Bosnian rescue dog Sisu. Jojo tells us about selling 14 million copies of her book Me Before You and the experience of having the book adapted by Hollywood…We find out Jojo’s attitude to writing about people she knows, her thoughts on forgiveness and how therapy has benefitted her life. We also discuss Jojo’s new novel - We All Live Here - which s a warm-hearted, wry and empathetic novel about a woman getting to grips with her estranged family. You can order your copy here!Read more about Jojo’s work at https://www.jojomoyes.com/Follow @jojomoyesofficial on Instagram  Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of Walking the Dog with Jojo Moise and Cecee. Do go back and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already and do make sure to grab yourself a copy of Jojo's fabulous new book We All Live Here, because I promise you won't put it down. I'd also love it if you gave us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Jojo and Ceu. Obviously, we don't need to tell people just how successful me before you became. Oh, we can actually.

What the hell? Yeah. Sometimes I think, yeah, I'm going to toot that trumpet. It sold 14 million copies. Oh, just grabbed off. Right. Yeah, I didn't get run over. Wow.

And some of that was thanks to Richard and Judy. Was it? Yeah, because it became a Richard and Judy book club pick. And that started the snowball rolling. And then I just kept thinking, well, it's had a really good three weeks, so it'll probably slow down now, and it just didn't. It got bigger and bigger, and then it went global, and then it became a film.

and oh did it become a film? I think it took me two years to sort of believe that everything had changed, you know, that it was now okay. I just got used to disappointing people once a year. If anyone hasn't read it or seen the amazing film, doesn't always work, but you adapted this, and I think that made a big difference. And you had the wonderful Amelia Clark and some Claflin.

Oh, we've got... Oh Goochie and Louie are back. Where's Cece? Cisoo, come on. She's a little bit blind, so sometimes I have to... Coooo! Come on, Baba. You're okay.

She's 11. Yeah. She's going to be 13 and she's starting to see you a little bit. Yeah, I have to just stand there and waving my arms like I'm doing semaphore. Stay there, Ray. So... Oh. Is that a she a bit in who?

Yeah. Oh, what's the name? Ziggy. Ziggy. Hello, Ziggy. Oh, poor Ziggy. I love all the dogs with their personality. She's a bit miserable.

She's a bit nervous. It's like Spice Girls. So, yeah, I wonder, with a film like that, that must feel, you just can't imagine anyone else playing those parts now. No, no, no. And I remember we got, I was a big part of the whole process. I wrote the film and I was very close to the director the whole way through. And she said, okay, we're down to six boys and six girls.

sorry for the infantilising. And she said, now they're going to do what's called chemistry reeds where they put different ones together to see whether they spark off each other. And I remember I was in Paris in a cafe at the time that all the chemistry weird videos came through. And I watched Sam Claflin and Amelia Clark

do these scenes. And I was crying in this cafe. And they said, what can you give us your top three? And I basically said, Amelia, Amelia, Amelia, Sam, Sam, Sam. And luckily, I think it was pretty similar for them as well. It just shone. They just shone on the screen.

It was so interesting. It was such an educative process for me as well, because I didn't know about things like chemistry reads. I didn't know that you could put two amazing actors together and then the whole thing would just go dead. And I'm not allowed to talk about who because it's not the done thing. But it was fascinating seeing, you know, household names who just didn't strike a spark off each other.

But those two did. and it was just a lovely thing to be part of. I mean, you know, if anyone hasn't read it yet, I don't know how long the spoiler alert rule last. Surely there has to be some kind of statute of limitations. I think it came out in what? 2011? Yeah, so if you haven't read it, I'm sorry, I'm going to, I might.

2012, right? All I will say is someone dies in the end. Not everyone makes it out of this alive, yeah. Was that always your intention? Because that is quite a brave move. It was. So romantic fiction, you know. Yeah, because it was inspired by a true life story of a young man who had decided exactly this,

a young rugby player who I don't want to name in case, you know, but his family finally agreed to let him go to Dignitas. And I couldn't get my head around this at all. I couldn't make sense of being a parent and allowing your child to do this. And then the more I read about the family, the more I understood how they'd got to that point. And so when I wrote it, for me, the fascinating thing was in that ending because, you know, who gets to decide what life is worth living? Who gets to decide what comprises joy and dignity and pleasure in a life? Who decides what is so compromised that it's unendurable?

I don't know. It's clearly relevant at the moment. Well, it just, it's going to keep coming back because now we have the technology to keep people. alive but we don't necessarily have the laws to protect I don't know it's a very it's requires bigger brains than mine to sort this one out but so that was the original plan for the ending and then I loved writing these two together so much it was one of the best writing experiences I've ever had I don't know if it's because I didn't have a deal effectively when I wrote it and so I just was like

fuck it let's just write whatever I want to write but the characters had just come alive in quite a rare way. They don't always do that. And then I didn't want the ending to be that because I liked them too much. And I remember contacting my agent at the time and saying, hey, I've had this idea. Why don't we do a really new thing in publishing and we can make it a kind of marketing thing and we can offer people two endings? There was just this long silence.

My agent, Sheila, just went, no. No, we're not going to do that. Just write the ending you told me about, and she was absolutely right. Just put on your big girl pants. Yeah, exactly. And I believe very strongly that if I'd given them a kind of Disney-fied, happy ending, it wouldn't have sold one-tenth of the copies. I don't think that story would have had anything like the impact that it had.

Well, sometimes you have to give people what they need, not what they want. Exactly. And I want to bring us all up to date. with your latest book, which I've been very lucky to get a sneak preview of. I was so excited when this plop through the post. I absolutely loved it. Oh, thank you. I know it's a weird period.

Even someone as successful as you. Do you still get that thing when you write a new baby? Always, always. I mean, I told you when I met you, you're one of the few people to have read it so far. And it's always nerve-wracking because you just don't know how something's going to go down. You don't know how it's going to be received. You don't know whether it's going to resonate. You can only write the thing that you can write.

So if you enjoyed it, then that's reassuring. Thank you. Well, I loved the way you write anyway, but I love the themes because it's called, it's we all live here. One of the themes, the heroine Lila is, it's sort of, you know, dating 40 plus, essentially. Yeah.

After her relationship's broken out, not through her own choice. No, very spectacularly not by her own choice. And it was really interesting to me, because what you addressed, I think would be relevant to so many people, because it's how different dating is that suddenly you've got blended families perhaps to consider.

You've got ageing parents, ill health, loss, all these kind of things. I thought what was so interesting was how your needs are so different. Yes. When you're dating, you know. In your 20s compared to your, well, yeah, Lila, the character's in her 40s. Yeah.

Yeah. No, because actually when you're in your 20s, you've got all these invisible markers hanging over you, like, am I going to have a family? Am I going to build a career? Am I going to own a property? Am I going to do all these things? And you have to factor your relationship goals into that. Is this good father material? Is this somebody who's going to provide for me if I can't provide for myself?

is this somebody who my parents are going to approve of? You know, all these things. But by the time you're my age or younger, Lila's age, they've pretty much gone out the window. You're not going to have kids with this person. You're not going to build a house with this person. Your parents may not be alive. So you have completely different rationale

for what you want from somebody. And I loved her as a character because... Oh, thank you. What I loved about her was that she's complicated. and very flawed. Yes. And I feel like... I like messy people.

Well, do you know what, Jojo? I particularly like messy women in books. We weren't allowed them for a long time. No, and you didn't see them. And I think Bridget Jones was perhaps the first messy heroin that we got in which we might recognise herself, ourselves, rather. So no, and the thing that sort of surprised me about...

I mean, I'm 55, which astonishes me because in my head I'm somewhere in my early 30s. But I'm still daft or I'm still stupid or I still have moods or I still want to or I still want to jump on the back of a supermarket trolley and go down the aisle. And every now and then I think, oh, is this really, should I be trying to act with dignity? And then I just think, no. No, can't be bothered. I've just decided it's okay to be a bit daft.

and my favourite scenes with Lila were, you know, where she gets annoyed at someone at a zebra crossing and so she does ten jumping jacks on the middle of it and says something daft because that's what I can identify with. You don't necessarily grow up and know yourself any better just because you're older. One other thing that I related to was I felt she was also, it represented her getting to that point in life,

or certainly that's how I viewed, it was also, where you just get a little tired of people pleasing. Because she'd had all these things she'd been dealing with, it was like, I just don't have the time to make this nice for you all the time. Yes. Yeah, and we talked about Anne Patchett earlier on. I remember a few years ago being really stressed because I'd had this sort of terrible patch of a few years

and I was running on empty and I said to, I haven't got the energy to decorate my house for Christmas. and she just in her very calm way said, JoJo, I never decorate my house for Christmas. A woman only has so much energy and you choose to put your energy somewhere else. And I thought, I love you. It's just completely validated decisions.

Everybody has a certain amount of energy and I choose to put mine somewhere else. And so my house is not decorated for Christmas yet again. Nor is mine. And that's fine because we choose to put our energy somewhere else. I sort of feel the reason I don't, it's just because I feel I'm doing it because everyone else is doing it. Yes. As I get older I'm less keen on doing stuff motivated by that.

Yes and who's the invisible judge anyway? It's like having a perfect house. What house do you feel more comfortable in? I remember going to Julie Cooper's house in Oxfordshire once and it was life-changing because and I'm sure she won't mind me saying this. It's covered in dogs and dog hair. All the kitchen cabinets were completely scuffed. It's chaotic like The sofa covers were a bit grubby. It was the best house I've ever been in. The walls were covered in art.

The house was suffused with love. You could feel the love in that building. And life, crucially. And I sat on the sofa with, you know, her whip it or a greyhound or whatever it was. And I thought, I've never been more comfortable. And of course, Jilly's house famously, you get plied with champagne. And then they have to kind of drag you out about 11 hours after you were meant to leave. And it's because she makes you so comfortable.

And I thought, yes, it would be lovely to live in a minimalist paradise that looked perfect. But would your phones be comfortable there? Yeah. Do they want to be sitting on the, you know, the white bonquette that has to be wiped down after anybody puts a paw on it? No. So I'm a great believer in just comfort now. Like, what's going to make everybody the most comfortable? Let's go with that way.

Well, I always think my mum was always, because, you know, they were quite sort of bohemian case. and yeah my mom had an aversion she would if you she walked into a house yeah and there were coasters she'd have to walk out yeah she just said because what you're saying is my table is more important than your comfort oh that's interesting I have a friend who once didn't buy a house because it had no books yes I understand that baba good girl hi hi um also in this book yeah you We've got, as I said, there's this sort of blended family. And another theme I really like was this sense of Lila, the Heron, you know, there's stuff she's not dealt with.

Yes. And all of us have that to a degree. There's baggage we sort of think, we just carry on taking with us until middle age sometimes. And she's not really processed her. She's got this absent father who is such a brilliant character. He's one of my favourite characters I've ever written. I might have to resurrect him for something else because. I loved writing him.

It's a bit like the May Before You thing where sometimes a character just drops fully formed into your lap. Jean is one of those characters. But yeah, sorry, go on. I personally really related because my parents were, my mum was an actor and in the theatre.

Our door was constantly knocking with random people who stunk slightly of wine who used to be on TV a bit in 1960s or 70. And they've never quite got over themselves, yeah. And they did like one Doctor Who and they go to conventions and things. That's Jean. That's Gene.

I recognise this man and I felt real affection for him. I thought these are my people. But it's interesting how... I think it's interesting how Lila's relationship with her father, it's almost like until she can deal with that, she's going to be a bit stuck forever, emotionally. But I think this is what happens when you get into your perhaps 40s, but definitely 50s, which is you look around you at all this baggage that you're carrying.

You know, it's like those removals boxes that you move from one house to another that never actually get unpacked. And you don't even know what's in them anymore. They're just a weight that you're carrying. And so I think this book is also a book about forgiveness and letting go. And what Lila recognises in her relationship with her dad and her dead mother and her stepfather is that if she doesn't let go of some of this stuff, she's going to carry it and pass it onto her kids to carry. And I think at this age, I look around me and my friends divide quite cleanly into those who can look at that stuff

and those who just package it up and shove it in the attic and go, nope, not looking at that. I'm sure it's stuff that I need. And it fascinates me because it's also about at this age going, well, how do I want to lead the rest of my life? Do I want to be carrying these weights or do I want to, you know,

Because you've definitely, at 55, had more life behind you than you've got ahead of you unless you are really unusual. And I don't think I want to be 110. So it's, you know, your characters end up reflecting your preoccupations of the day, I'm sure of it. And for me, it's just about midlife and all the things that come up. But forgiveness being a key one. How do you want to move forward? What weights are you determined to carry with you? Are you forgiving?

Hmm. that's an interesting question. I can think of a couple of people. I tell you what I am. I'm really easy going until you push me past the 98th percentile and then the wall comes down and I'll never talk to you again.

Or I will reign vengeance upon you in some devious way. Or I'll have you taken out. I know people from my East End days. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. but you know who you are. Well, another way. But it's really hard to offend me. I'm very slow to offend,

but when it comes, it comes heavy. But also, I just kind of like most people, and I don't, let's go up here. Yeah. The interesting thing about being a writer and therefore having sat in lots of different characters' heads and also of having years of therapy,

is that most people you can kind of look at and quietly pick them apart and go, oh, well, you're probably like this because of that. And once you have understanding, it's very hard to dislike people intensely because you're always contextualising. You know, you're always going, well, I'll make allowances because this happened to you

or because that happened to you. It's quite rare. In fact, thinking about the two people who I would find it pretty hard to forgive, one of whom is now dead I had her killed I couldn't forgive them because of what they did to somebody else not me and I think it's much harder to fight or to

be furious with someone on the behalf of somebody else than it is yourself yeah I think that's true you're all right carrying that dog do you need hand I'm so used to often quite comforting oh okay he's a bit of it he's a bereavement dog. So he, because I got him. Oh, because of your book. Well, when my sister and my parents died, I wanted to bring joy into my life, Jojo. And he represents joy. So I, I suppose that's why I have such a bond with him. And I feel you got your sea suit, it sounds like, came into your life.

Well, see Sue, yeah. When you were going to a tough time. Oh my God, it was the worst of times, as Dickens would say. And I remember my friend Sarah Phelps, the screenwriter, sent me this picture of the saddest looking dog I've ever seen in my life. I've still got the picture and she said look at this dog and my old dog big dog was getting very elderly for a big dog at that time and I knew that at some point I was going to have to replace her because I tend to have two dogs at once so that they don't get lonely and I just thought okay this has been the most awful year oh this lady's doing a sorry we can have to sorry to interrupt um this lady was recording something.

I thought, I'm going to do one good thing this year, which is get this dog out of this pound in Bosnia. And yes, it was a bit of a hiccubby start, but one of the great satisfactions in my day every single day is looking at her and going, you have a good life now. Yeah, she really does. And she wouldn't have done. She'll come.

There's one other thing, theme, that I liked in this book, which is the idea of, the writer's, I suppose, moral responsibility to those in their lives that they have relationships with. And the heroine, again, I don't want to give too much away, but the heroine sort of comes across this problem, doesn't she? Yes. I thought that was an interesting theme for a writer themselves to tackle. Yeah, I guess. Is that something you've wrestled with in the past?

I did at the start, but I didn't wrestle with it beyond going, okay, I cannot ever use people that I know or situations that I know, apart from in the most abstract sense. Right. Like, one of my books was inspired by a friend who lies all the time, but she wouldn't recognize that in herself. So it was, because I suspect she lies to herself about who she is. So it was fine to write a character that lies all the time. And has she ever said to you or you shouldn't have written about me? But no, she wouldn't have known it. No, she wouldn't have seen it. Yeah, and also weirdly, because people see themselves in things anyway. Like, I've had people get upset because they think that I've used their lives in something. And I go, what? Luckily, only a couple of times. But, yeah, people are going to see themselves in very odd situations. So I know I'm very clear that everything that I write about is invented. And it's not hard to make stuff up, you know. I was a journalist. We did it all. the time. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. There's that brilliant piece of writing advice, which is

if people didn't want you to write about them, they should behave better. Do you agree with that? I do to an extent. I think the thing that's always fascinated me is people who write about their children. And I find that such a personally, you know, yes, I know there's an argument about truth and real life, but as a parent and a writer myself, I find that. I find that. I find that, you know, yes, I know there's an argument about truth and real life and but as a parent and a writer myself I find that such a hideous dereliction of trust and I know there was a sort of famous story in the 90s about a woman writer who wrote about her three teens and then they realized what she was doing yeah and they were absolutely furious at her and I don't blame them I just think it's one thing when you're

writing about adults but to be a mother writer I I think I think the thing about that storyline in the book is Lila writes about somebody in a very vulnerable position and doesn't seek their permission and that to me is hideous and yes I think that's the thing that fascinates me it's like I mean there's always an issue when you're writing because you have a degree of control yeah that your subjects don't have you can choose how you represent them. And lots of my friends who've written memoirs have actually fallen out with their family temporarily or permanently because of that issue. Because memory is subjective. Yes, it's completely subjective. Only through writing a memoir that you realize how subjective

is that this is, that's what I would argue is the definition of a memoir is this is my memory of what happened. It's memoir. You know, it's not saying this is the truth. but I can see what's tough about that, that everyone experiences a situation differently. Completely. I might come back today and say that was one of the loveliest walks, and you might go, that fucking woman. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And both would be true. And that's... See, she didn't correct me. That's one of the... I think we're talking about somebody else's walk. I was just about to say, in case your listeners can hear a degree of heavy breathing, we're walking up a really steep hill at the moment. We are, aren't we?

Yeah. And it's windy. I really feel we've got our 10,000 steps today, though, Jojo. I think we'll have done about eight. Do you? Yeah, I'd walk this heath so much that I'm kind of conscious of the different steps of every route because I am that boring person who tries to get the 10,000 in every day. I feel very safe with you.

I feel like you're very reliable. I am a reliable person, yeah. Are you? I'm not a flake. But that's because I love it in other people as well. I love knowing that I can rely on people. Are you good in a crisis? Really good.

I'm unflappable in a crisis, but I will cry afterwards. You've been honest about having therapy, which I love, because I think the more people that... Oh my God, I don't know why people would hide it. I just think it's a toolbox. What's the main takeaway you've had from it? What does it taught you therapy, do you think? To separate my emotions from what is actually going to. on. Yeah. Like in any situation if I'm overwhelmed by emotional, I'll just be asking myself,

okay, what is this really about? Am I mad because someone's not done the washing up or is it actually? Yeah. Because I feel taken for granted by everybody in this house old. Little window into my life there. No, I can't remember who it was, but there's someone who had this great analogy, which is sort of pre-therapy. Your emotions are like cars on a motorway and you're getting swept along in the traffic. And then once you have learned a bit about yourself and what's showing up in your behaviour, you're basically on the hard shoulder,

watching them all fly by and just going, oh, okay. Oh, you're really feeling that now, huh? And I think it just makes me a bit easier to be around. I think I am quite an emotional person. I think most writers are, unless you have that chip of ice in your soul. I think you... Do you learn around that?

No. I think I feel stuff and then I put it on paper. I feel like I'm one of the writers who has a couple of layers of skin missing, which can probably make me exhausting to be around because I feel everything all the time. But equally, it makes it very easy to imagine my way into any situation. Whereas I know, I mean, I remember when I was working in The Independent, there were a couple of feature writing journalists who I just remember thinking, I would never want to be interviewed by you

because they just had zero conscience about how they were going to approach something. It was just about the story, nothing else. It's why I wasn't a very good reporter, like in terms of a newspaper. Su-su! She's all right, she's there. She's there.

There she is. Good girl. Good girl, darling. We're on the home stretch now, nearly home, my love. She's had a lovely time. Oh, I really love her. Oh, thank you. Sue, aren't you a sweet girl?

You're so gentle. You've got a beautiful soul. Aren't you? You're a lovely girl. Yes, my love. She's not very rewarding for other people because she's not waggy and... But she'll give you a nose boop if she likes you. Can I have a nice nose boot?

You're good girl, are you? You're so beautiful, Susu. She's so funny. She'll come and sit on the sofa next to me. But if I stroke her too much... Oh, sorry. Good, thank you. Oh.

What, you want to take some nice social media stuff, is it you're doing? For your heart. Oh, how lovely. What about, what do you think? If you go down this path, go through, there is a thing called Budikas Mound, which is a ring of trees with seats all the way around.

And there's some lovely views and the trees. It's not beautiful, beautiful at this time of year, but it's quite a nice place to sit. Kenwood is nice as well. Oh Kenwood is nice. Why don't you go to Kenwood? If you put Kenwood into your phone, it might be probably a mile away, half a mile.

Yeah, and you'll have coffee and cake as well. It's where they film a lot of period dramas. Beautiful house. Incredible old house. Kenwood House. Yeah, that's a good idea. Basically, you're going to head in this direction all the way. And that will...

20 minutes? 20 minutes, do you think? 15, 20 minutes, yeah. But I like that you're not going for social media. That was a terrible assumption on my part because you're young and I thought, oh, they'll want to take pictures. But you just said you want it for your heart. Yeah, I'm taking pictures because I don't know if I'm going to return to this place and the memory is bad. So you forget the... Yeah.

Kenwood is beautiful. I'm very happy right now. That's why I'm like that. Oh, how lovely. Well, we recommend Kenwood. Yeah, it's a beautiful, stately home, white, beautiful lawns and lovely. and lovely... Like Bridgeton.

It looks like... Yeah. Okay. Kenwood is the one, isn't it? Yeah. So head, but you're roughly going that direction for about 20 minutes and you'll see signs for it. Lovely to meet you. Okay.

Bye-bye. Bye. Come, Baba. Come. How sweet. I love that girl. How lovely that she... And I loved it when she said, no.

I said, oh, you're going there for social media. Isn't that interesting, Jojo. I just made that really lazy assumption. Yeah, but that's because everywhere you go that's beautiful now. you see people with kind of selfie sticks. And she said no, and she touched her heart. Yes. For here.

I just want to find somewhere nice. How lovely. I bet you're a really nice mum. Well, you'll have to ask my kids about that. I, hmm, how do I put this? I work hard at striking a balance between being kind of, being kind of capable and boundaryed, you know, for them and,

but also being someone that they can tell anything to. I know my daughter feels that she could tell me anything when she was growing up because I mastered, the best advice I ever got was, master your poker face. So no matter what they tell you, they're not having to manage your reaction. They only have to worry about their own.

And the other great, piece of advice I got as a parent was whenever you talk to your teenagers about something heavy, never do it face to face, always do it sideways on. So either in a car or in my daughter's case on a horse, we would ride together every weekend. And there's something when you remove that eye contact that makes it much easier for them to open up. That's why I like this podcast. Oh, let's go up this way. Because you can just walk. I like walking with people. Because if not, I mean, it's different with you because I would describe you as very therapeutically evolved. But you know what I mean?

It's not always the case. You're having to prize information. I'm with a comic. Who's maybe never talked to make themselves like this? The whole way around. Yeah. And again, not all comics because... Yeah, of course.

And increasingly it's different. And I know I work with Frank Skinner and he's someone who's so open and honest and authentic about his feelings. It's not always the case. And so I find the walk is great because... If I sort of turn around to a comic and say, so have you had therapy and the territorial hostility? Yeah, of course. Because if I do it while kicking the leaves and rays like that,

it becomes a casual admission rather than... That's how you get them, Jojo. I'm lucky with my kids as well in that they, you know, we've managed to stay friendly. And I wasn't a nice teen and I wasn't an easy teen. and I fully expected my teenagers to be as hostile and unhappy as I was. Why wouldn't you? Why weren't you a nice team?

You know, the usual things, parental divorce, I didn't like school. I just, yeah, I think growing up in the 80s was very different in terms of the dialogue between parents and children. I also think if you said you're missing a couple of layers of skin and you, you know, a lot of rice. are quite sensitive and I think if you were a sensitive woman growing up in the 80s in Hackney which was like the Wild West back then it was not the kind of hipster paradise that it is now so yeah I think I think it was normal common or garden sadness and unhappiness I don't think I think in some ways the kids today have far greater challenges but one of the things that's been a lovely revelation to me

is how much I've enjoyed each of my kids' teenage years. I like them. I just, I like their friends. I just think they're interesting and funny and it's going to be a bit nauseating. I can kind of count the conflicts I've had with all three of them on two hands. Yeah.

Small, like nothing lasting beyond a day. I just, they're not kids who've made my life very difficult. either so hopefully I mean we'll all mess our kids up in our own ways but I'm hoping they'll look back and think that they didn't too too badly yeah I sounds like that's the case and I'm always interested in writers that break through in terms of you're in a very small club in some ways yeah in that oh my god and increasingly small I think yeah and and writing is at very lucrative for you. Yeah.

And I wonder, did you feel at all that anyone changed towards you when you became super successful? Because as you say, you'd been, you know, a lot of people that say a thing, I'm going to write a book. Oh, see, see. I'm going to write a book and then it never happens. And then you did it. Yeah. Hmm, that's an interesting question. One of my friends once said to me

that I was the person least changed by success that she'd ever met and that was a huge compliment to me I think partly because for the first five years I didn't believe it was happening I just kept waiting for the full you know I kept thinking this can't carry on at the rate that it's carrying what you doing? Oh my God she's having such a good time this is quite rare for her I mean she's an old lady

what you're doing? Yay! We're having zoomies. This is really sweet. I'm so glad she's enjoying her. She's really happy. Look at her face. She's happy.

Are you happy? Are you happy? Oh, yeah. You're a good girl. You're a good girl, aren't you? Yeah. No, I think the nicest thing for me was that nearly everybody I knew felt my success had been so hard won that they felt like I'd earned it. I didn't get that thing that sometimes people get when their first book is a success out of the book.

gates that everyone's like, mm, okay. I think people have been incredibly generous to me because they know how long it took me to become an overnight success. And in terms of, I have a very good radar for when people aren't being authentic. So I remember being at a publishing prize, an award ceremony. And someone who wouldn't have given me the time of day before came up and was sort of very keen to press the flesh and asked me how I was. And I remember thinking, why are you talking to me? I don't, you don't even know who I am or you don't like me or, you know, you've literally looked through me at half a dozen events before this.

And then I went, oh, so slow for the penny to drop. Oh, it's because now I'm successful. And that repulses me. I don't like it. I like, I don't know. When you realize where that comes from, I mean, perhaps that's a bit of a purist view that I'm but it's just that you can sniff out when people only want to be around you because of what they can get or potentially what they can get and I I feel so sorry for people for whom huge success

comes in their 20s because how on earth would you navigate that I mean I'm not I don't think I'm particularly well known other than a spine on a name but there was a period after the film came out where I briefly felt famous or infamous or whatever because we had a bit of a controversy when the film came out. And I was so deeply uncomfortable with that level of visibility. I like being invisible. I'm not really a person who seeks to be known. And the beauty of it is it came so late for me

that I think I had most of the foundations of my psyche built by the time it happened. But you look at, you know, this, like the poor guy from one direction who just died, you think I don't know how you would navigate that level of success at 16 and not be completely warped by it. And funny enough, a lot of the actors or actresses that I've met who've been famous from a young age, you can see how it warps them. You can see that they can't cope unless they suck all the energy out of any room, unless they are the focus.

And then they go into a kind of, well, you must know this being around actors and actresses. They have to do whatever it takes to be the centre of attention. And I think... It becomes a neat... I think what's dangerous, you're right, is that you've not learned how to comfort yourself and self-soothe. Yes. Do you know what you mean?

All those things that you learn as your brain's developing. Yeah, if my success fell apart tomorrow, I would still essentially be the same person. You know, we have a running joke with me and my best friend. I tell you what you do. You'd get down the minicab office. No, well, we have it running, don't me and my best friend, where we say, well, I would stack shelves at Tesco's.

I don't care. It doesn't affect who I am. I was the same back then as I am now, and I will be that person again. And I also am part of a little writer's group, and we've all been together for about 20, 25 years now. It's mostly online, but we meet twice a year. And we've all watched each other go up and down. Our fortunes have risen and fallen. And so that's an amazing thing to kind of give you context

and keep you grounded because, yes, I've had this astonishing run so much greater than I ever thought I would have, but it could go and that's fine. You know, fashion's change, people fall in and out of favour, but it's not going to shake me personally. I'll be quite sad, but it won't destroy who I am. Well, I think it's good for you to be with other writers, isn't it? Yes.

I remember when I was writing a book and my best friend Jane, who's... a very successful screenwriter, actually, Jane Goldman. Oh, yeah, yeah. And James says... But she's another, you know, works at it. And she's been working since she was 16, hasn't she? Since she was young? Yeah.

Well, because I've known her since I was 11, it's like that's the thing. I remember her being like that. She would just get things like, you, grafter. Yeah. Whatever she did, she was like, right, I'm going to nail this. It's so important having those women in your life, I think. That's day. The dog trainer.

This is our local celebrity dog trainer. Come on, let's say, hello. Hi, Dean. I'm doing a podcast called Walking the Dog with Emily Dean. Hello, Dean. This is Raymond. Acclimatised my dogs to London life. What would you do with, so are you a dog trainer, are you?

Yeah. What would you say about Raymond on the first inspection? Regarding what? Do you think he's looked well trained? Yep. It looks like the best boy on the heath. Dean knows what to say. Saying all the right things.

See all the right thing. Come on, Ray. Come soon. He's got a little dog with him, a whiff it, I think. I think he's in the middle of a training session. Oh, we interrupted. We did. Poor Dean.

He was very polite considering. Cecee, come. See, Sue, come on. Sorry, Dee. Come on. She likes him. Come, Bubba. Have you got treats in your hand?

Sorry. Cisu, come. Come on, Ray. Come. Come, come, Babon. Oh, Cece. Oh my gosh, you're such a terrible dog. She's just seen her trainer.

I know. You've got better quality treats. See Sue, come. I'm so sorry. Sorry, where were we? Oh no, I was just saying it's so important having those friendship. Oh, yeah.

Jane's thing that she always says to me whenever I do anything is it's not shit, it's just unfinished. Yes, everything is awful at the start. Yeah. I call it a vomit draft. You're just kind of splurging it all out there to try and find the shape of it and to try and find out what you want people to feel

at different points of it. And then it's like those sculptors, who whack on clay. You know, you're just building it and honing it from this lump and piece of nothing to start with. And, you know, I did this maestro course for the BBC, partly because I was just so flattered to be called a maestro for anything. But one of the things I always say is,

do not identify yourself as a writer. Because if you identify too heavily with the idea of yourself being a writer, I am a writer, You can paralyze yourself because then if your writing isn't going well or it's not coming out in the way that you feel proud of, your whole identity is in question. Whereas if you just go... I'm writing something. I'm writing something. And it's a process and you have to love the process because it's going to be...

Sisu, come on. Oh, she's such a minx. She'll come. She just is going to go on... Sisu. She's attempting to run away to the circus again. She, this is every time a circus comes here. She will go to see if there's any bins to invert.

investigate. I mean, this is... See, Sue. Come on. I can see her legs. Good girl. Do you think in a way, Jojo? Yeah. She's almost... I wonder if she's reminded of her days when she was wandering the streets of it. Oh, completely. Do you think so? Yeah. Because she had to take what she could get. Yes. And if she saw a fairground or a circus, she thought, oh, there'll be dropped food there. Is that what it is?

Yeah, no, no. There's bins and pizza wrappers and all that kind of... Bless her. So, yeah. How lovely that, you know, you've just utterly changed her life. Come, Baba. Come. Yeah, it's a daily pleasure for me spending time looking at, you know, when she just got goofy in the woods, when she lets go and just stops being a wary dog, it's so pleasurable. Do you know what I've loved? And I've honestly really loved this today.

It's one of the most rewarding dog walks I've had. Oh, God, how lovely. Can I tell you with what I've also loved? It's how... Well, I love you, but I love how... I just respond to your energy, I don't know why. But I love how Sisu and Raymond seem to have this quiet understanding.

They've been totally cool together, haven't they? Yeah. He's just... He's a delight. He feels so comfortable around her. Hey, Baba. Lange, do you like Sisu? Oh, I love you.

Oh, you're just such a gorgeous woman. You're an imperial prince. Oh, makes she smelling women. I know, isn't he lovely. Have you got a new friend, Susie? I bet, Jojo, you are not frightened of confrontation. I don't like it, but I'll do it. Will you?

Yeah, and it's, yeah, I will hit things head on every time. And I think, business-wise, I think because of my dad, I probably behave more like a man than a traditional view of a... What do you mean because of your dad? Because I learned from him. him. I just watched how he did business. So I have kind of a male, and then I was in male industries. You know, even my first cleaning job was in a transport company. So I'm used to male sense of humour, male, you know, I'm very comfortable around a certain kind of, oh, look at

this. We have a pigeon swarm guy, but it just, I'm very direct, I think. I don't like, funny enough, I'm really comfortable around people who are a bit spectrumy because they have no side. I like that thing of someone who's just going to tell you exactly what they think. I love that as well. Yeah. I think the thing I found hardest when I first started working in Hollywood was the fact that no one will ever tell you what they think. It's all dressed up. So it's like, JoJo, we love the latest draft of your script. We're just going to make a few changes. And then you suddenly realize that, A, they've given it to somebody else to totally rewrite and they don't love you. And it took me a couple of years to learn to speak the language.

Right. The language of in sincerity. Yeah, and to read between the lines and go, and also to do it myself, because they don't always cope well with directness, so you have to do it back to them. So you go, I'm so glad that you thought A, B and C, and I think maybe if we do this, this will, you know, it's just you have to slightly speak in a veiled manner, whereas in my normal life, I think I just like to be very direct with people. I mean, you know, Claire, my publicist will tell you, we've we've we've wept in the back of cars before now. Like if I'm unhappy, I will have a cry.

Or if I'm happy, I will tell you that I'm happy. If I like someone, I'll just say, God, this has been nice. The thing I love about being in London is, you know, some mornings I'll come and they'll be just amazed. There was a woman the other day, a kind of middle-aged black woman who was wearing this fabulous kind of put-together outfit. And I just said, God, you look fabulous. And then her whole face lit up. And she was like, oh, this whole thing, like in a very English way. And we just both walked away happy, you know.

And I think that's what I love about being back in London. It's just not that I talk to strangers all the time, but that ability to connect, whether it's the coffee shop or the other dog owners. See, Sue? Well, also as a writer, all writers are magpies, aren't they? Oh, yeah. You know, when you think of all, like, that girl we saw earlier on the walk, That makes you think.

You know, you meet all these amazing characters. Come on, Ray Rewe. Oh, see, Sue's jumping about. Oh, she's having a little flirt. I think she might have met a little poodle. Sometimes she gets really weirdly giddy with dogs and you think, what's going on here? And it's like she suddenly has a little flirty moment.

Did you, you lost Big Dog, did you? Yeah, we got her to 11 and a half, which was really thrilling because we got her at seven. Nobody wanted her. She was 58 kilos. Oh sweet. He's met a friend. What's yours? Is it a Shih Tzu?

Raymond's taken a shine. Oh look. Oh, Raymond's off now. Well what he likes, which is an odd kink, rather than the actual dog, he likes their... Dogs with kinks, this is a new... Yes, he likes their comfort breaks. He likes to bond with their toilet rather than them.

I don't know what's going on here. going on here. He's so cute and they're so gross. I know. It's a bit like life really. So cute and so gross. All human life is there. Come on, Ray.

Oh yeah, sorry, big dog. Yeah, she was 58 kilos and the rescue charity in England where we got her from just said nobody wants a big dog this size because, you know. She was a Bernice Mountain Dog. No, she's a Pyrenean Mountain Dog. Pyrenean, I'm sorry. Yeah, but she was an exceptionally large version of that. And yeah, she was just the best.

I mean, quite a handful. But it was like having Nana from Peter Pan in the house. She was just magnificent. Yeah, I love to. Well, Jojo, Moyes, I think you're rather magnificent. Thank you. I've loved meeting. Oh, but likewise, she's had just the best time, haven't you, Bubba?

We'll have to get them together again. I think, Ray, this, honestly, what do you think, Ray? He's got a real spring in his steps. Has he? Well, I don't know him, so it's how to me he's just like an exceptionally well-behaved little guy. Hi. You're just adorable.

Where's your fancy, Sue? You're so cute. You're a good girl, aren't you, my sweet. Yes, you're so lovely. Do you know what? I'm calling this introvert dog meet up. That's true. That's true.

Inverte dog club. Well, yeah, I get accused of being introverted sometimes, so we've managed to pull it out of me as well. I haven't stopped talking. Do you think you are introverted? Um, oh gosh. I think you'd have to ask other people. I'm definitely more introverted than I was, but I think most of us are these days. Um, I think I pick my social occasions carefully. And when I'm around people that I know and feel comfortable with, I can be probably quite giddy. Yeah. But I find it hard to be in other situations. Hello. Fear's creature.

That dog's got very young. Charles Star energy. Yes. Where's Raymond? Raymond's fine. He's not impressed. He's a bit more of a seetive. Oh, how good.

Oh, look at this lovely. A beagle and a jumper. I mean, nothing wrong with a beagle and a jumper. Nothing wrong. I mean, and a pink colour. I love that dog. Look, little dumpling. saying Ray's shaking it off.

Ray, do you like the beagle? Oh no, he's voted with his feet. Has he? It's just like, nope, thank you. He's very tolerant when someone does actually give him an intimate sniff. He just sort of sits there with a kind of face of forbearance. If you must sniff my nether regions, then I will bear it. Well, he's learnt that for me. There's a question in there.

I'm not. I think this requires a drink. Oh my god. tolerant when having a no okay I'm gonna stop now well Jojo thank you so much oh it's been a pleasure thank you I so loved your book as I say and I really urge well I don't need to urge people people will go and buy your book in droves no you're very kind I just wanted to write something funny because I feel like we're all just well I think you've written something not only funny but also it felt so real and everyone felt so relatable I felt rather sad to say goodbye to those characters.

I miss them. I am wondering how I can resurrect a couple of them because I loved writing them. It came too easily that book. I remember saying to everybody, I don't know if it's any good because it came really easily and it's made me really suspicious

but I think it was just the book I needed to write at the time. And it was the book I needed to read. Oh, thank you. And it's called, we all live here and it's brilliant and it's going to be out February the 11th. So do...

What are your copy now? I have so loved our walk today. Raymond? Thank God it wasn't yesterday with the weather. Oh my God. Yeah. I was saying to my producer, you know what? I think JoJo Moy's is pretty hardcore.

I bet you'll probably brave it. I was at a horse show. It was the coldest I have ever been in my life. I was so cold. I think all podcasts should involve dogs. Just our dogs. It's a good way of breaking things down, isn't it? Yeah.

Thank you, Emily. That was the pleasure. So goodbye to Raymond. Bye, bye. Oh, look at your lovely little face. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog

wherever you get your podcasts.