Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Jonathan Ross and Honey Ross (Part One)

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

It's a very special one this week - we’re out for a North London stroll with an iconic podcasting duo... the wonderful Jonathan Ross and his equally wonderful and talented screenwriter daughter, Honey Ross!The Ross Family have a long history with dogs - and today we took a walk with Spooky and Pumpkin - who are both adorable Brussels Griffons. Together with Ray, they make quite the trio! This walk will hopefully give you an idea of why we love this incredible family so much - we discuss what it was like to live in a in a household with nine dogs, the experience of growing up under the white heat of fame and we also meet a very important character from Honey’s childhood called Evil Baby…Jonathan previously appeared on this podcast back in August 2017 - he goes into detail about his family history and origin story with dogs. You can listen to that episode here!Honey and Jonathan’s fantastic podcast Reel Talk is available wherever you get your podcasts. It’s genuinely a thing of total joy - so we really urge you to give it a listen. Follow Honey and Jonathan on Instagram - @honeykinny and @mewossyFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think I phoned ahead and said to mum, don't panic, but Eminem's coming home. What? And so we all immediately panicked because we found out Eminem was coming over on a school night. Because how could you not? This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I went for a North London stroll with an iconic podcasting duo who are very close to my heart, the wonderful Jonathan Ross and his equally wonderful and talented screenwriter daughter, Honey Ross. And of course, the two beautiful Ross family dogs, spooky and pumpkin. who were both Brussels Griffins.

So I should declare up front that this one was a bit of a family affair because the Rosses are basically like family to me. Our origin story dates back to the 80s when an incredibly charismatic little girl called Jane Goldwyn knocked on my door and asked if I wanted to play and we became lifelong best friends. Jane went on to marry Jonathan and have three of the coolest kids ever so I instantly claimed them all as my godchildren

and the Rosses have basically never been able to get rid of me since. Jonathan has appeared on this podcast before where we covered a lot of his life story and history with dogs so do go back and give that one a listen. But for this episode, I was very keen to just let the chat flow and give you an insight into the really special and lovely relationship honey has with her dad, Jonathan. It's a dynamic that's also captured brilliantly

on their fabulous podcast, Real Talk, which discusses new TV and film releases and there's also a lot of hilarious family stuff in there too. and it's genuinely a thing of total joy so I really urge you to give it a listen I had such a lovely walk with Honey and Jonathan and I think this podcast will hopefully give you an idea of just why I love this incredible family so much

I'm going to stop talking now and hand over to the fabulous pair themselves here's Honey and Jonathan and Spooky and Pumpkin and Ray Ray right we've got three dogs now we've got three dogs with us I would say two and a half because Ray, let's face it,

is not really anyone's idea of a dog, really? He's more like, what is he? More like a stuffed toy. I look fresh off the bat with that. Way, you can't help it. You're really going to start the podcast like that. He's like the most emasculated man I've ever met.

Just how we like him. Why do you think we hang out with you so much? Oh, thank you. We have our two dogs and whatever that is. So we have pumpkin, who is coming up for three years old, a beautiful golden Brussels. Griffin and her friend and guardian, Spooky, who is one year older and he is a

lovely black-haired Brussels Griffin, Griffin, Bruselois. I feel like I'm with Clemold. Can we swap dogs? Can I take pumpkin? You can take pumpkin? I find it interesting you described as blonde. I'd say she's strawberry blonde actually. No, she's golden blonde. She's got no, but she's got red undertones. She's a strawberry blonde girl. Actually he's got red coming out under his black which is a bit weird.

I love that, an Auburn, an Auburn moment. Autumn. Autumn highlights. He's an autumn. A warm autumn. I had autuminal highlights given to me. Did you? Yeah, when I was a student,

I went for a free haircut at the Vidal Sassoon studio where students were trained. And the young woman did say, I'm going to give you autumnal highlights. And I went, if you must. I bet they quite seated you, did they? Well, back then they probably did. Oh, that's nice.

Right, immediately pees. We're going for a walk over there on the heath and he pees in our front garden. I do apologize. It's so ill-mannered of you. You know what? They take after their parents. I saw you pee behind a bushyer once, I swear when you were leaving one night.

Can we say you have genuinely gone to the bathroom in the garden? Of course. Yeah, speak on it, M. Tell him. Every man does. It's actually desirable because you have to mark your territory. Cave man, maybe. Do you remember that, honey? Do you mean when I weed in the garden or when I pooed in the garden? He claimed he was doing it to make the dogs feel more comfortable, but he was doing it on

on his own time for himself. And let's be honest about that. Come on. I would say though, if you're going to poo in the garden, leaves are nowhere near as absorbent as you might hope when it comes to wiping up. That's what I'm going to say. Come on Ray. Oh Ray's leading the way guys. Yeah, he heard what I said. He's trying to prove a point.

Good boy. Did you have Ray snipped? Yes. Yeah. Did you feel bad about it? No, it was the best thing I ever did. And I think I may have said this to you before because I just thought, he'll never leave me now. Do you understand that guys?

The wonders of the world's mind. No, elaborate. There's no life out, there's no excitement or life out there for him. Poor way. So we're on the Heath extension, this is called, isn't it? Yes. And it's so beautiful here. I love it. Obviously, as if you didn't know already,

I'm with the very fabulous Jonathan Ross and Honey Ross. And he's introduced the dogs already and insulted my dog. But that's all right. I don't mind. I want you, I'm obviously very aware of your history with dogs. but can you talk us through them? Because, hon, in your life, you've had, I mean, I can count about eight dogs, I think. I think at a time we had about nine all at once.

What was the most dogs we had at once when I was growing up? I'm just going to take pumpkin to the lead because when we get this far in, they're very good and they don't run off too far. Yeah, release the babies. So they're both all three off the lead now. Yay! I grew up with dogs. I had two dogs when I was young, well, one followed by another,

but they weren't mine. They were like communal family dogs, of course. then we decided we'd like to have dogs and we thought the children like to have dogs. So the one we almost got first was going to be honeies. Yes, but instead it was Harvey got the first dog. Yoder. It was quite a tragic story. Do you remember what happened with the one that you chose?

I do remember what happened. So we had the photo of this little dog on the fridge. Mum had found it through wherever she'd found it. But that dog sadly passed away. She never made it. That was OG princess. Mum then panicked because it was about two weeks before my birthday and she did essentially find a kind of strange rescue dog

that was claiming to be a chihuahua but was very much not it was more like a kind of small fox. That then was my dog for many years called princess, a long-haired chihuahua called princess which is very cliched but she was a love of my life. She was gorgeous but she was a little bit, I think she had certain neurological and psychological issues that we never fully resolved. Just like her mummy. I mean...

She was quite a challenging friend in some ways. Sorry, coming from you, the father is three of the most feral pugs the world has ever known. My pugs were natural animals of instinct and green. There's nothing natural about a pug. They weren't complicated on Machiavellian like your beast. Again, just like her mummy. A little schemer, a little platter. A little serpent under the cushion.

I think you're projecting a lot onto this dog. She was a golden-hearted girl. Ask anyone. So we had princess and then Harvey's... dog arrived next. That was a beautiful Boston chariot. His dog was first. Yeah, he was found but after your one that never made it. So we had Yoda, who was also known as

Professor Yoda or Professor Podemoski from the linguistic school of canine behaviour. It was his full title and he was a good, wasn't he gorgeous? He was gorgeous and God he had so many nicknames. It was Yoda, Poda, Ponzu, Ponzo sauce, just the list goes on. He was everything.

What was that song? We used to rub his belly. The song was, you guys made up. It was, love Poder. If it's something we've learned, oh, we all love powder. It's the way that he's churned. And then we'd all rub his belly. He loved that.

And then you'd go, don't churn the dog. Don't churn the dog. But it was to the tune of the Flora Butter advert. And then Betty's dog arrived, and that was a lovely shitsuit called Captain Jack. Yes. He left a Captain Jack from Torchwood, not Captain Jack from Pirates of the Caribbean,

although both are problematic these days, of course. And he was really such a sweet nature friend as well. He was my friend. first experience of a buschitsu. That was your gateway to Ray? He was my gateway. Well, because I was with you when you went and got Ray. You were. I was on the journey? Dad's getting the treats out.

Hold it. Which pocket of my treats? I've maybe disappeared in a hole somewhere. I thought they were in this pocket here. It's a thick canvas short I'm wearing. Do you know, the dogs look so happy in this field. It's a beautiful field. Wildflower. This is like dog heaven. And they're being fed treats. Well, every time Jane and I come over with the dogs

because honey's here with the stove of course, but honey lives away from us now, of course, much to my delight and her mother's chagrin. Which is not true. But it's normally me and Jane walking the dogs. And every time we come over, we always say, we're very critical of them. We always say, how lucky we are to live this close to this space.

And also, Jane always says, oh, I love seeing them. Doesn't they look so happy? And it's like, yeah, okay. We sort of said that quite a few times. But it's true, but they do always look so happy. So, Yoda, Jack, Princess. I've got to stop calling Jonathan Dad, because he's very unprofessional.

Dad to the world. No, but because you are part of the family. Because we should establish that, because you're my godmother, of course. The legendary truculent beast, Mr. Pickle. Yeah, Mr. Pickle was... Or Sir Pickle occasionally, but the Dungaytonton. He was built like a filing cabinet that dog.

He was a solid unit. So solid. Still my fondest memory was one time when Jane's dad was sitting on the couch. And pugs are quite uncomfortable animals to have on you anyway because there's lots of weight. They're like someone who's got a lot of weight wearing stilettos. So it's all going down to those tiny pointed ends. Jane's dad was slouched on the couch

and Pickle kind of climbed up his body, got on his high chest to sit down, where he would have been broken the view for the TV anyway, and then lowered his exposed anus onto Jane's dad's forehead. Gorgeous. Which obviously was something I kind of wish I could take the credit for having trained him. do but it was just an improvisational moment of genius so Pickle was a real character

and I'm very fond of him and he's sorely missed and then we had Sweeney the Sweeney was sort of James dog and that was our first Brussels Griffin and he was adorable really such a sweet boy as you know him we had a he was with us about 14 years yeah he was a really special job just such a good good boy and um he the day we were met this is why I asked Julie about getting raised um balls removed because we hadn't done Sweeney yet and he was booked in to do it and the day before he went in he managed to get hold of princess and he created it was the day before he was due to go in and get the snick he knocked princess up the day he was scheduled to get them removed yeah and just got in one last

hurrah got one last hurrah and then we had puppies it was literally his stagnant yeah and we all saw it happened so then they had four puppies who were all very sweet and we wound up accidentally keeping one of them because we couldn't give them away. We gave some of them away, three of them away. We gave the wrong one away, the one that you wanted, we gave away. No, we had a cupcake for a while. Trinkle went to Catherine Tate, and then we wound up keeping... Spider.

Spider, who was very sweet, but I always felt about Sawyer from Sawyer. I felt like you're kind of not anyone's special dog. In theory, he was Grandpa's dog. And I think this is also kind of the fatal error we made, which was thinking, everybody needed a dog. It's kind of not how it's done. I think usually you have a family dog. Not everybody needs their own dog.

I think we've learnt that the hard way. We have learned that. And going now into adulthood, I actually have no desire to have a dog for a very long time because I had nine dogs. I mean, when you say you had nine dogs, how often did you feed all nine of them? Oh no, that was all in you.

So I was doing the feeding, and how often did you clean up their poo? You were the adult, sir. That was on me, sir. I see, so this burden of responsibility of having these nine dogs, how did it impact on your life so great? that you now don't want a dog? Well, because there was never a peaceful moment.

I mean, it was blissful, it was joyous, but there was constantly, like, dog shit everywhere. It was like having the marks of urine. I think it's very lovely that the kids all had a dog each, but I think that's quite typical of you. I think you would worry about someone feeling left out. Spooky! Can I just point something?

Way, who, let's face it could do with the groom, has got a big, twig attached to his butt hair and Pumpkin thinks he's a delightful game and he's chasing after him to try and get it off him but Ray doesn't understand why pumpkin keeps pressing her face up against his back area it really has got stuck up his bottom Jonathan so Jonathan as you said you grew up you had is it troll was that first of all we had trog who was an old mongrel dog that someone gave us well I don't know do you use that word anymore it's kind of like a street of a much But you used to be called Mongols.

She was black and white. I think Lee Mack has used that, unsurprisingly, but I can't think of any other that goes. Working class middle of a certain age. Many other words we've learned to remove from our idiom. But my parents never had a dump for some reason, so she would always get out and get knocked up. So we had about four or five bunches of puppies at Housewood, which we always found

homes for. And then we wound up keeping one that I always felt was my dog, even though he was everyone's dog, but I felt I had more of a bond with him called Tramp, who looked a bit like a collie had got hold of her because he had longer hair and longer, slightly more delicate features. Oh, yeah. And she didn't. He was a really lovely boy.

I do also love, though, called Tramp, which again is something you wouldn't really do now. Although, you know what? Yeah, I think it was based a lady in the tramp, rather than homeless person Tram. But then that's where Tramp from Lady the Tramp came from, of course. Yeah, the same route of origin, isn't it? Why did you call it Trug again?

There was a reason for this. Because I named it Trug accidentally. I was very young when we had. I was about two, I think, or three, maybe two. And there was a television program, a puppet show for children called Pogles Wood. And on it, there was a squirrel called Tog. But I would mispronounce Tog as Trog, which is, I won it considering I added an R where most of my life I've dropped an art without meaning to.

So we called it Trog, which was a pretty cool name. That is a cool name? Yeah, so I had those two when I was growing up, but they were kind of communal dogs. And they were like street dogs. You know, back when I grew up in the early Sunday, you got up in the morning and you had your breakfast and you open the door and let the dog out. And then sometime in the evening, you'd open the door, and the dog would be there, and you'd let it back in.

So it was just free roaming? They would roam. They would roam the streets. It's very weird. You just let them out on their own. You let the dogs out. You sort of did the same with children then, didn't you? Well, exactly.

It's 10pm, do you know where your children are? That whole kind of public service announcement. I would get up on a Saturday morning and wouldn't say anything to my parents. I'd drink some milk, get on my bike, and ride off. And I'd come back just when it was nice and twilight. drink some more milk and go to my room. I can't even remember how many there were. Six. There were six in the family.

Six children in my family. Did you share a room with two? Four brothers. There were five of us in one room. That's busy. It was a busy old room, especially when we hit those teenage years. Oh, yeah, a lot of movement under the covers.

Christ. I get the sense. Whenever you talked about your childhood, I think you were quite alone a lot of the time. Blissily. Were you? Yeah, I was alone a lot of the time. But partly because my parents,

my mother was very loving. My father, I think, was when we were first there, I think he was quite happy, but I think he grew increasingly unhappy and probably felt trapped, I don't know, but didn't really want to be there. And then I'm sort of introred by nature anyway, but maybe that's how I can that way.

The oldest two were slightly more conventional boys, really. They did actually show a passing interest in sport in which I had no interest. So, you know, I was just interested in comic books and certain TV shows and stuff like that, and so I would spend a lot of time on my own in the room drawing my own comics and that kind of stuff. And that is a sort of a solitary pursuit, you know.

Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you spent a lot of time in the basement, didn't you? No, I spent a bit of time in the basement. Quite basement dwelling. We had a basement as well, but basement's where I kept my model kits. I had two model kits. And one of them was a glow-in-the-duck phantom opera, which, being a young boy interested in whole and supernatural,

when I painted him up, I put a prick of blood from my thumb on the paint, thinking it would make it somehow special. And then I was down there once, in that summer about 73 or something. It must be 11 or 12. And there were power cuts and the power cut. And this cellar had once been a coal bunker.

We had a house where you could put coal in from the old days. And it was pitch black in there. And the only thing I could see was his glowing face because he had a glow in the dark head. And I thought, oh my God, I put my blood in. Something's going to happen. I don't know what. There was a non-specific fear.

And I stumbled and tried to get up the stairs at this coal shed. No, that is terrifying. And once you get out into safety of the house, you felt fine. But it was genuinely the first time my life I've ever felt truly, truly terrified. It's interesting that though, because Han, when you look at your childhood, because your mum, who again, we should full disclosure, I've been best friends with since we were 11, and she was an only child. And in some ways, I feel your dad was spiritually an only child. Yes, in many ways. And yet, isn't it lovely that they've given you this incredibly warm, slightly noisy family environment?

Oh, it's come at a price. Oh, it was amazing. No, I feel like they were both kind of looking for a middle ground from what they had had. Because there's three of us, me, Betty and Harvey. And would you say your typical youngest child? I don't know. I think the baby gets a lot of flack. I think there's a lot of negative connotations associated with being the baby of the family. Em, you're about as good as Stuart looking after dogs.

You've left way half a mile back. He's now sniffing a bin. He's lost all the refinement you've drilled into him. You've turned you back and he's become a street dog. But I think in some way, you know, in the same way, that I think mum and dad maybe knew I was the last one so I definitely got some maybe some preferential treatment also I think they were a bit calmer because they'd really done it twice I think you know you're so much more protective the first

time round this is where we have a sit by the way oh lovely having a little rest yeah we always have a rest here did you and Jane always think we wanted to have three is that kind of the time and start I had never really thought about wanting one even to be honest with you I like the idea of children I suppose but I don't I don't think men do think about it in the same way really No. That's depressing. No, I don't think it is.

I think it's just the way we are. What do you think about, hon, I'm interested, when you hear about your dad's childhood, when he tells the stories about the dad made the central heating, his dad, Jonathan's dad basically created, was it like he basically built a central heating system in your house? He wanted central heating, but he didn't have money to pay for it, so he went and got a book out the library

about how to install central heating and he installed central heating in a house. But many years later, when he left my mum, and my mum was still in that house. The central heating had gone and wasn't working. So she called him and she looked here. And the man came in and he spent quite a lot of time walking scratching his head and said,

do you mind if I take some pictures of this? Because I've got no idea how it works. And I want to share it with the central heating in-house magazine for central heating suppliers. And so Summerhead got this thing working, which worked all our children. You know, we had central heating. We had hot water.

And he also did things like, you know, my mum wanted some French dresses, which is a very sort of 70s things to want. So he built them. He bought the wood and built them. And they look quite nice. He made, he was self-taught in most ways. And he was very well-wred for someone who left school at 13.

Yeah. And he also, like the garden, we had a very small square patch of government, which was always scrubbed up because one day he decided to cover it with concrete. And he went and put the wood down and measured it up and bought the concrete and filled up. And so we had a concreted garden. Yeah. He was very practical, but also, you know, people were more then. And I suspect, you know, I think, you'd both be like that if you were in those circumstances.

It's just circumstances were so different. The world was so different back then. Well, no, and I think that's the thing, I, I, you gave me a very different childhood to the one that you had and I always hear stories from your childhood and I just think It's a miracle that you're I mean, you're so kind and loving and warm and you've just you know you've lived through so much you've been through so much I think you know I don't I don't sell my childhood to you as some sort of tragic No, you don't at all you never do but I think I think only of my childhood No, I know and you definitely had a very different life, but we had very different lives and I think

But it wasn't something that Alan Park would my make into some dreadful sub-story film, you know. But I think there are some people who would have lived the life you had and they would make it into that kind of story. Yeah. And you have never, ever sold it as that. So how would you, if you had to describe your childhood, how would you describe it?

It was chaotic, but it was loving. It was some... It was kind of a benign chaos, though, which I think is lovely. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it was never a bad chaos. Yeah. But I think we were always, you know, there was always something going on in the house,

which was nice. there was a kind of real beating heart there. It was a real home. I mean, I think there were things in your childhood we were talking like before, before the show, but, you know, that I would change for your sake that would have made your life easier because there's some, oh look, they've seen a big dog and unwisely they've gone to bark at it, and that is a very sweet, large dog.

The thing is, when you're the baby, you just have to slot in, you know. The dynamic's already been established. And you kind of just have to go, oh, okay, you know, everybody's already done the things you're doing and everyone's kind of bored of it. So you have to just kind of slop. slot in and be amenable, or at least that was my experience. Yeah. But you also, you had the challenge of, you know, your dyslexia.

Yep. And so you had a, in some way, I mean, all three of you had, you know, I think pretty okay childhoods, but there are things that I'm sure we could have done better. But you were then, had to leave the nice school that you went to every day with your siblings and go to a special school that specialised in that kind of thing where you had to, which was very strict, not strict, strict, but had structure. It was very regimented it. It had to be, I think.

So you had, that was a big thing in your childhood, which, which, which, you had to, you dealt with very well, but it must have been very, I would have thought, not less be traumatic, but certainly challenging for you. Definitely challenging. I think I didn't know what I was doing, but now what I know that I was masking for, you know, the first five years of my life. The masking goes on a lot longer than that if you've got any neurodiversity, which, you know, I definitely do.

But I couldn't read all right for years and had just tricked everyone around me into thinking that I could until about year three. They got me and they were like, we can't accommodate this. We know that you're actually kind of faking it and the school I'd been at that whole time just were like, we can't handle this. And so I then was very privileged actually to get to go to a school that could.

And I now write for a living and that's amazing. I never thought I'd be able to do that. And can breed for pleasure, which was also something I was told I'd never be able to do. Yeah, that was not, it was not easy. It was very hard to go from this very bohemian artsy-fartsy silly private school to a very teachers with first names or that kind of stuff to go to a school where you wear

uniform it started early and it was right on the other side of London so we'd have to leave we leave the house of seven every day no no I'll live in seven we'd be up at like five we'd be in the car at six and then I'd get there for seven drive across town I was the only girl in my year for about two years there were just no there were no other girls it was just me and a lot of young boys who were going through similar, if not worse, more complicated challenges than me. So yeah, that was really difficult. But as I was told throughout very character building,

and I had a good sense of humor about it. I've tried to maintain one for my whole life. And you had as well, do you know, it only occurred to me recently how awful it was to have to live under that white heat when that kind of awful path Prowse tabloid stuff was at its absolute worst. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? That it was just there were no rules. It was like the Wild West and it was like, and I'm sort of amazed, like for you to be growing up in that and for your parents to be going through that as well, it's like you've all, how you've all emerged on skates from that? I sometimes, I think there are definitely scars. I'm just really good at hiding them.

But you know, I've been being ripped to shreds by the tabloids since I could, you know, since they started photographing me, which it was, you know, as soon as, as they could. And you just develop a thick skin, or at least publicly you do. How did you deal with that, Jonathan? I think you and Jane dealt with that really well, actually. How can you deal with it? But you just... It's interesting. It's kind of like, it's a big generalised thing, which is, in a way,

doesn't do justice to the complexity of... Yeah. Because sometimes it was minor, sometimes it was just going out and then realising you've been photographed when eating. And we weren't, you know, let's face it, I mean, I was a big name in the UK, but we weren't like, you know, global stars. So we didn't have anyone near as bad as some people. Definitely. But sometimes we'd go out and we realise, and it was a bit creepy. Sometimes you go out with the kids,

you go to something, you realize you were being followed in a car, you know, and then you see those people. And there was one time when Honey cut her foot swimming, and I raced around to the doctor with her, but I left Jane a message on her phone and just said, just thinking, you know, she was in a meeting or something.

I said, honey's cut her foot, Danwari, it looks quite, there's a lot of blood coming out because the foot is very soft, and it's quite a lot of. Tish then, I said, but I'm taking around to Dr. but by that.

And when I arrived there, there were two papazzi waiting outside. So I'm pretty sure they were listening in on recorded messages. So there was stuff like that that was disconcerting. It's horrible because it's very depersonalising and it's quite, you feel othered. But in other ways, I knew that, you know, the fact that we're able to live here, for example, is because I was a high-profile person with that sort of career. And the fact that we got to take the holidays, some of the experiences the kids had,

we only had as a family because I was well-known. You know, so you sort of balance it out. It doesn't justify. I mean, I remember I came over here once with Harvard. It was his birthday, and I bought him a styrofoam plane. It wasn't an expensive to him, but it was a big plane. The sort of thing I would have worked with a kid, where you could fire it off with the job, and it went a long way.

He got stuck in a tree, and I climbed up the tree to get it for him. It was a nice day, and literally about a week later, it was a double-page spreading heat magazine. I felt really bad about that. I did phone them and complain. I said, you know, it's clearly a private moment. It's a father and he said, yeah, but we said, well, you look like such a great dad.

I said, yeah, but I don't need your fucking vindication. I'm not looking for you to tell me whether I'm a good or bad parent. You don't know whether I'm a good or bad man. You don't know, Oh, thank you so much, the world's best dad mug from heat. Just because I got a tree out of a plane doesn't make a good parent. But it was that level of intrusion was what upset me when I thought there were moments which I wish to share only with the children and we couldn't. Your dad, certainly my memory of him when you were growing up was that he was, I think it's fair to describe him as an entertaining character.

Definitely. How dare you? He would sometimes create, he was a step dad that would always be playing games and things like that, wasn't he? Yes, such a fun dad. So, for example, there was one particular game, which I remember him playing, which involved a doll called Evil Baby. Evil Baby. Oh, I wasn't sure which game you were going to mention. I wasn't sure if it was going to be Evil Baby or Monster.

Monster was actually my preference. Evil Baby. Evil Baby wasn't really a game. Evil Baby was more like a form of free therapy I was handing out to all of you. Exposure therapy Yeah Well dad you were the kind of Master of Evil Baby

Do you want to explain? No I'll tell you what I'd be interested to hear Yeah I would be interested in here Both of you describe Evil Baby And then I can clear up a few truths for you So Evil Baby with a small plastic baby

You had won in a fairground game If I'm correct Maybe I can't remember where the baby originally did He was like a small kind of little spooky baby I think he had like a spider web on his face like a little in white paint. Evil Baby would talk to us and tell us somewhat unwelcome truths, I'd say.

Evil Baby would call you out on things that maybe you weren't yet ready to address. I think he was sassy. Yeah. Em, you received some talking to me. Oh, yeah. I will. I mean, I remember,

I didn't really know what to do because you suddenly appeared with this doll who had a horrible American accent. Yeah. And he would come. come into your, and you suddenly see this doll appearing in the doorway of your bedroom. Creeping into your peripheral. Man, you might want to have a think about your life.

What are you doing with it? So, Evil Baby was a way of me communicating freely and happily with those around me. What do you think a therapist would say to you about Evil Baby? I tell you what I'd say to the therapist. Why don't you get a proper job instead of making people unpick those painful wounds so you can sit there and feel all high and mighty? You're the one that needs to help, baby. Wow.

So evil baby gets dark. Evil baby knows. Oh, look at this sweet doggie. Gorgeous. Is he a Scotty of some sort, do you think? Hello. What's not? Is schnauzer?

Is that a schnauzer? He very love it. That's why I said schnauzer. He came out and worked scotty because I've got four folks. Now, I think evil baby was your kind of the truths you wish you could say. but maybe felt like social mores would hold you back. You know what? You're reading too much into it. Evil baby. I was just trying to make everyone laugh.

And you did. You did make us laugh. It was just a fun bit of shtick. Jonathan is probably one of the most honest people I've ever met. It's very refreshing. I think somewhat can land you in hot water sometimes, but I wouldn't change you. I think it's a wonderful quality to have. It's one that I really admire in him.

I'm a simple turn, really, in many ways. No, you're not. An unguarded simpleton. Where does it come from that? Have you always been like that? Almost definitely not. Really? It's taken me about 45, 50 years to be comfortable with myself

and to begin to feel, you know, sort of vaguely authentic. I spent a lot of my life pretending to be things I wasn't. And then you gradually, and I think this is probably fairly common, you do get more relaxed as you get older. you know because you are less worried about how what you are saying is going to be received and you get less worried about how you're perceived. Yeah. Whereas when you're young, you're trying to seem cooler or smarter or funnier or more competent

or more together than you actually feel inside. And so you put on a lot of different masks as Sunny was saying earlier. One thing I love about Dad is he is the opposite of a people pleaser and I think that is absolutely like a hard one title that he has been. put in work on himself to be of, you know, he does not exist to please others, he pleases himself and I admire that. I wish I was more like that. I think it's very liberating to see that. But would you not say that I have become more empathetic in the last five years or so? Definitely. So in a way, I do want to please or at least accommodate the people who count

in my life. Whereas I'm not particularly bothered about people who I don't know. I mean, I don't want upset anyone. You know, I don't go around going, hey, what are you wearing that for? evil baby does I'm thinking that the whole time but I think it's the difference between empathy and sympathy isn't it?

You know, you empathise with people more than you did before and you try and understand where they're coming from whereas you don't just kind of coat them in a blanket of sympathy and go like,

which is actually sometimes kind of unhelpful and cloying. I've grown markedly more aware of the impact that words can have whereas previously when I was younger bizarre I used to think you could say almost anything

really? Well, because they're just words. I also felt like you know, if I didn't intend something, but you say something as a joke, you kind of thought everyone knew the intention. Yeah. And it was a fairly hard one or rather kind of like, you know, quite a difficult learning curve. She goes, oh no, that isn't the case, of course. You know, and all those complicated things that we do, we now speak about, but we never spoke about years ago, but, you know, when you're in a position of authority or perceived power, speaking to someone

who isn't, the different weight that your words have. And that wasn't something that was apparent to us 20 years ago. It certainly wasn't to me. Maybe it should have been. And so I've become aware of that kind of thing much more. You know, I'll give an example. I was, had a bunch of people working on a show once years ago, and I wasn't happy with the people that were suggesting as guests, and I wanted it to be a slightly broad arranging this. And I'm saying, why don't we get people who are broadening your horizons, you know, we should get someone who's just got a weird dog. We can get someone who's just done a weird thing. They don't just have to be people who have got a booker. And then afterwards, the person who was in the company with me,

took me to one side, a very nice guy called Mike. And he said, I know what you're saying, and I kind of agree with you. The way you're saying it, you realize, they're all scared of you. I said, why they're scared of me? Because I thought I was on, you know, I'm just another person in the office room. He said, because it's your soul. And it's your company. And you're saying, and they're thinking, you might fire them. I'm saying, but I didn't say anything along those signs.

He said, no, no, but it's perceived. Yes. That you've let them know you're dissatisfied with something. Therefore, their next thought is probably, oh, fuck. And it hadn't even occurred to me back then. That would be the way it goes. And now it is. And now, even if someone is incredibly incompetent in their job,

I will not talk to them publicly about it. And I would turn to one time and say gently, maybe we could try something a bit more like this or, you know what I mean? So that's something which you just learn by being older, but also I think because society has changed somewhat. Certainly, I've become, in many ways, a much softer character than I was previously, even though I didn't ever think I was hard in any way. But I clearly was without realising it. Do you think that's true, hon? I do of your dad. Definitely.

I definitely think, well, look, I think I will always have a different perspective from other people because I've always seen your softness because you and my father. So I see big soft papa. Like I got the privilege of knowing the soft centre. Whereas, you know, there is a different version of yourself that you present when you enter the world, just because everybody does in a way. Even though I think the insides match the outsides even more than they ever have before. You were always able to separate those two versions of your dad. Do you what I mean?

There was quite a clean line for you between. You would look at your dad on telly and think, oh, that's working dad to everyone else relates. see me on telling him. I see you, because we never used to watch the show at home. No, but I, oh no, I saw you a lot, but also you would specify that to me. You'd go, you know, this is me performing and doing my job, and then there's me at home and there's a difference. But I watched a lot of your show because I would, I don't know if you remember, but I would come for a good period in like when I was maybe, I remember about year five or year six, I would come to your show and do my homework in your green room, in the dressing room, not like the green room.

I remember you would sometimes be the year. I'd sometimes come, I'd watch the record. I was some kid in my room Get out of here Shoot That's really lovely I love those memories No I love coming down to your show

And watching you shine Because you're so good at it I mean also What a rare joy to have Which is a male influence Whose specialty is asking people questions Like how rare do you You know

One of the biggest things I hear from my female friend's dating is like Oh he didn't ask me any questions And my dad All he does is ask questions I'm so lucky to know it exists. But how often did I listen to the answer? I mean, I was normally panning the next joke.

Oh, I've got to ask a question. But let me tell you something. To be fair, you have pretty good retention. So whether you're interested or not, it means that you're... Don't you think? Your dad's quite good at sort of saying, oh yes, and then he'll remember the surname of some random neighbour I've mentioned or something.

Yes. I think he's also very good at performing retention if he needs to. Can we just stop for a second? This is Naomi and Pluto. Hello, Pluto. Naomi, we're doing a podcast. She's our friend Emily.

No, no, it's okay. No, but this was one of Spooky's early walk friends, Pluto. And we used to come over and always hope we'd see Pluto and they'd run around together. Spooky, it's Pluto. Hello, Pluto. I've got any treats left. I hope I have got this one. What kind of dog is Pluto?

Oh, Kappa poo. Beautiful. Oh, I've got one left. Is that an old friend of Sput. then Pluto? I would say yes. It was about three years ago they first met wouldn't it? They got lovely chemistry. But then COVID happened and then we often don't, our schedules often don't align. Ray's not quite so good at making friends but you know it was very lovely to me. See you soon. Take care. Bye-bye Pluto. Oh I like that encounter. You see

if you had a proper dog you would have encounters like that but because way lives in some gilded bubble. Oh my, there's a interact with other dogs. Like how many dog friends has why you got living near you? That's classified. Mum, I don't realise we've gone to walk with an evil baby. This is awful. Yeah the truth now. Come on baby. Open up. Motion qualities dog he likes. Thrown together not an organic friendship. Sorry.

This disrespect. Do you know what I've realised though hon? Is that I've realised it's taken me many years to quite enjoy this because I've decided this is how your dad shows affection. 100% and it's not a story and I'm speaking to it no no and you'll bang on the money keep you any way you need to justify your presence fire with me oh my god that's what you need to tell yourself why do you think he does that huh oh I mean there's there's this couple of versions of an answer I could give come on try me I think I think you're right I think it's his love language I think it's kind of a safety in the closeness yeah see he doesn't like it when it's

flipped on him when he gets a bit of taste of the old evil baby With a detached, morbid curiosity to this nonsense. Well, because it's like, you'll say something really genuinely lovely and then you'll be like, yeah, but raised small. You know what I mean? And it's a kind of, I think it's a protection. He has to dismantle it, isn't he?

Well, I mean, if I'd say anything about Way that wasn't truthful today, then maybe it was a... No, but years ago, you're right, years ago that probably was it. I was fairly uncomfortable with any sort of closeness, and so I would sort of try and disarm it somewhat and make it palatable for me. But you're right, at the course. of it, that probably is, it is a sort of defense mechanism.

I like it now. I like it. I'm very fond of it. Well, no, because I know that it means you love us. Also, because basically, let's be honest, a lot of the time, conversations are really dull. And if you're just talking about bullshit like, oh, my feelings, oh, this happened. It's like really boring. So spice it up a bit. I feel like the universe gave me to you as a test. You know what I mean?

You gave birth to the most sensitive, strange little child. Can I say? had to like deal with all my feelings and all of my mental health issues. Do you think you've been helpful to your dad then, you and your brother and sister? I think, oh my, well, I'm sure all of us have been different lessons for him, but I think I take some responsibility for his growth in empathy. No, you are. You are in some way responsible that.

Your mother has been the most kind of useful addition to my life in that respect. Yes. I love useful addition to him. Without her, without how I'd still be. be a ghost riding a skeleton. As it is, there is a shred of humanity. But she gave me, like an old Greek legend, she breathed the spark of, she used to say his ghost, she said, I'm your human CV.

I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday. So whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.