Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Kate Lawler (Part One)

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

We’re in North London this week with the fabulous presenter, podcaster and bestselling author Kate Lawler and her two dogs Baxter and Shirley. Kate is absolutely in love with her dogs - and long with her little girl Noa - they are her children! Baxter is 13 - he’s a border terrier and joins us on our walk in style in his very own dog buggy. Shirley is a mixed breed terrier rescue who tends to leads the pack and loves to chase squirrels. We discuss the qualities that Kate has that led her to win series three of Big Brother, the joy that Shirley and Baxter bring to her life and her thoughts on having a fulfilled life - with, or without children.Follow Kate on instagram @TheKateLawler You can buy a copy of Kate’s book Maybe Baby here!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Shirley. Here we go. This could be problematic. Shirley, find it. You know when you just know when your dog's going to be a dick? Shirley. Squirrel! This week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and I went for a stroll with TV and radio presenter, podcaster, an author of a best-selling book on parenting, Kate Lawler, and her two beautiful dogs, Baxter and Shirley. Kate, you'll no doubt remember a first burst onto our TV screens over 20 years ago

when she became the first female winner of Big Brother. and she kind of won the nation's hearts. She also, I have to say, won my heart as soon as I met her, because she turned up with a dog pram for her beautiful elderly dog Baxter who gets a bit tired on walks. And anybody who loves their dog enough to take them out on a pram is frankly my kind of person. Kate is an absolute joy to go for a dog walk with, partly because she's very warm and funny and easy to talk to,

but also because she loves her dogs with an intensity I personally find hugely relatable. I really hope you enjoy my walk with lovely Kate. Do by the way check out her brilliant book on parenting called Maybe Baby, which is hilariously honest. And I also recommend giving her Instagram at the Kate Lawler a follow because she's the queen of genius content. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the brilliant woman herself. Here's Kate and Baxter and Shirley and Ray Ray.

Raymond? Oh my goodness. You're so lovely. You're hair. is incredible. Here you're having a sniff. How's he smell Shirley? All good. You are just fantastic. Mini Chewbacca. I bet you get that all the time. Do you know, I think the walker started really well. Well, do you want to introduce as Kate Lawler to your fabulous dolls? Yeah, this is my son Baxter. He is a border terrier who's coming up to 14. In a few months he'll be 14. A little pensioner and then

Shirley over there. Good girl Shirley. She is my beautiful mixed breed terrier rescue dog who's about seven eight yep i hear you shirley i can tell she's about to go she's wearing a nervous harness because she's at a fair share of scraps and it has worked because people then see that and take their dogs away which is what i need but we've had to treat trainer from day one oh really when i rescued her if we took her out for a walk on the street she would only have to see a dog in the distance and she would lose her she was so aggressive but we got a dog trainer, he was great, and we just now have to constantly treat train.

But she's great around people. Yeah, she loves people, doesn't she? She will lick your face, lick your ears. Baxter's a very chilled out. He's a typical border terrier, very calm. They're complete opposites. They're not best friends. They tolerate each other.

Sometimes she hunts him. Sometimes he lets her. Sometimes he just lets her. He sits there and he looks at me as if to say, what is this? Do you know, it sounds like a lot of my relationships in my 20. barely tolerates me sometimes I let them hump me and this is Baxter's carriage I guess because it's a podcast people can't see that I've got dog pram for Baxter now well I want you to really

talk me through this because yeah Kate Laura has turned up with a pram it's a first and I hope it's not a last because I'm about to ask you where you got that pram so this is an actual dog pram yeah it's a dog pram specifically for pets who are injured or who are all and every single person who walks past me with this pram looks in and I can see the hope in their face they feel like they're about to see a newborn and there are some people like looking and go oh and I'm like yeah how old 13 not weeks years it's great it's a really bougie pram actually it looks like a newborn pram right right let me use oh has someone done a poo Baxter's just dropping his load wait

I'll put Ray's poo in there. Good boy. Poo collected. Come on, so Baxter's behind us. Of course, always, and Shirley's always ahead. She'll go missing and she loves to go off on her own. Oh. But she's great.

They are so different. Look at him. But you know, this is lovely for him, Kate. The pram thing, I was thinking of getting one for Ray just because he's getting older and he likes to walk for a bit. But then I think he likes being outside, but he actually gets tired. So like you don't look ridiculous with that pram. I mean, it's questionable. Some people walk past me and laugh.

I don't care. Shirley. Here we go. This could be problematic. Shirley, find it. Oh, I can, you know when you just know when your dog's going to be a dick. Shirley. Squirrel!

Oh, here we go. It started. So sorry, sorry. What happened? Oh, she just, see, see that dog did nothing wrong. Like, I cannot tell you. What it is about a dog that makes her want to go up and have a go of it? That was just a bog-standed cockapoo on the lead with its owner.

She went up, she had a sniff, and then she just started barking at it. It's like road rage, right? You know, like if you're in a car and then someone, you'd pull out, and someone stops, and they're like, you're fucking idiot! You can either go sorry, or you can go, and then it's always men, isn't it? You always see them shouting and scream each other. Sometimes road rage can turn into people getting out their cars and squaring up to each other. She'll go and be that person who's a person who's a woman.

bit like road rage like come on I have you and then the problem is that dog was just very submissive was like go away leaving me alone ignored her but then other dogs will turn around and go oh you want some do you let's have it and then they'll fight and then like that's how you get that's the Chelsea fans get involved that's what will happen I don't know what do you think do you think I should muzzle her I'm really I really don't want to have to muzzle her so the harness that Kate's got on Shirley says nervous and I've got to be I want one of those. Don't you think humans should wear that?

I think you should wear one with your sort of brand. Like what your thing is. Good girl. Well done. Good girl. Well done, Shirley. She was great with that dog. Yeah, I know.

It's really annoying because I don't know when it's going to happen. And the dog trainer is like you have to, as soon as she sees the dog, you give her a treat. So she knows that whenever she sees a dog, good things happen. But then look, I can't keep an eye on all the dogs in this woods. But then she's been all right with Ray. Why does it matter? though he's an absolute king. Baxter at this point, after that incident, is standing at the back,

in quite a sort of grave, you have brought great shame on the house of West Dross. He's a bit, Baxter's you have brought very great shame on our house. Always looking down on Shirley. He looks at me after this happens and he's like, do you remember when it was just me and you? Do you remember when it was just me and you and there was no child and there was no rescue dog? I love Baxter. Life was peaceful.

So we're in North London. which I have to say is fabulous for me because this is literally just down the road for me. It's a great place this. Come along Baxter. Come along Baxter. The other day my friend came around for dinner and he said oh I was with a friend the other day and I and he said you know Kate Lauder don't you and one of my best mates he said yeah yeah she's one of my best friends he's I see her all the time walking her dog and she's always shouting at some poor woman called Shirley who is that her mum or her gran no it's my dog oh I love giving human names to pets.

It's my favourite. Her name was Pickles when we rescued her. Oh, really? And then I gave her a shower and put her on Instagram and someone said, she looks like Shirley from EastEnders with the hair going forward, like that kind of wet look French crop.

And I said, right, we're changing her name to Shirley. And my husband said, I'm not shouting Shirley in the park. I was like, well, Pickles isn't much better. Raymond is loving Baxter's pace. So Kate. One thing about this slow walk, though, I love walking. I love the exercise.

It's my meditation. I love getting outside. I love power walking. And obviously I can't do that, which is why this pram is a lifesaver, because we can have a slow meander. He can do his toilet. He can have a sniff of all the smells, meet some dogs. Then I put him in the pram and then we pound it round the woods or the park wherever we are. And Shirley gets a good run. Well done, Shirley. Good girl.

Oh, Shirley's met a little pug. Oh, Ray wasn't sure about the park. All right, Baxter. Should we put you in or do you want to carry on walking? So Kate, talk me through your history with dogs. You grew up, sort of Kent area. I grew up in Beckenham, in Kent. It's the borders of South East London in Kent.

So I grew up in Beckenham in a house where we had pets. We had goldfish. My dad had the most amazing, massive goldfish tank. It took up a whole wall. It was so 80s. We had pet rabbits, salt and pepper, named after the band. We had a budgie called Yogi. and then we begged my parents for a dog

like all children do anyway we ended up getting a dog I remember it was the year I was taking my GCSE so I would have been 16 and we got a West Highland Terrier we named him Charlie and he lived until he was 20 he only died a few years ago

so what is it? 1996 2006 2016 yeah 2016 oh my gosh that's not a few years ago that's so long ago yeah but what a good inning Yeah, and I don't know how he survived that long because my mum fed him grapes at least once a week. And I discovered after he passed away that his diet was essentially like the dog version of McDonald's. You know how everything now is grain free and no nasties and it's full of probiotics for the dogs.

But hey, credit where credit's due, Charlie lived till he was 20. He was approaching his 21st birthday. They never let him off the lead. They never let him off the lead. They take him for walks around the street, which is fine. Obviously, a dog walk is a dog walk, right? But they wouldn't let him off his lead at all. And he wasn't in any way aggressive.

He was the friendliest dog. And I said to them once, why aren't you letting him off his lead? We're in a park. Oh, no, just in case he doesn't come back. He was everything to my mum and dad. And my mum still gets upset when she talks about him now. And your parents, Kate, what were their respective jobs? My mum was a cleaner.

My dad worked as a painter and decorator. I'm one of four kids. They really worked hard to give us a really lovely childhood. I'm very fortunate to have grown up with a loving family. They were both only children, so both of their parents, my nan and granddad and my grandma and grandpa, we were their only grandchildren, so it was very much the ten of us all of the time.

Weekends for me were all about staying with my grandparents, my nan and granddad or my grandma and grandpa with my twin sister. And Christmas's, Easter's, summer holidays, that we'd see so much of my grandparents. And family was everything to my parents when we were little. And you're a twin, aren't you? Yes, twin sister, elder sister and a younger brother. I had a really great child.

Growing up, we didn't go on holidays abroad. We didn't really have the money to take us to expensive places. like places as kids. We went to my grandparents' bungalow in the Isle of Wight every summer. So yeah, I feel like I had a great childhood. I can sort of tell that, you know, by what little I know of you. You just have what I would describe as a very well-adjusted energy. Oh, thank you.

I'll take that. Do you know what I mean? Well-adjusted energy, my husband probably wouldn't agree with you. No, but I think our intimates probably, they see all of our blooper reels, the time don't they yeah exactly were you brought up by parents who were they very positive your parents were they very you can do this look there's four children in a house I'm I barely cope with one I don't know how they coped with four of us I always remember my dad being quite strict but in the

sense that like if we were playing on music way too loudly and running jumping and he told us three times he'd come up and we'd fear him we'd be like oh oh dad's coming upstairs quick hide you know it the 80s we were outside on our bikes playing with friends in the street until it was time to come in and have dinner i think life was a lot more simple back then my mum was a stay-at-home mom and she didn't work until we were all out of primary school i don't think pretty sure she might have had a part-time job when we were in primary school but her primary role was being a mother to four children and she did all the cooking all the cleaning my dad went out and earned the money i just think there was a lot of time

spent at home or in the isle of whites that's where we used to go every summer for us some holidays. My grandma and grandpa had a bungalow there so we'd go on a holiday there and we just I don't think it was it was just quite a free like loving fun household. One of my earliest memories is my dad always making fry-ups on a Saturday for us like he'd always cook a full English breakfast for us all and there'd be like tears for fears on the radio you know like at like toto Africa like you know those like classic I always um shout tears for fears or what's it called um oh there's everybody wants to rule the world that's the one that's the one that's the Like those songs, you know, Michael Jackson, The Beatles,

Willie Houston, Celine Dion, all of that kind of, but tears for fears for some reason in that Africa by Toto really remind me of those Saturday mornings where we'd all be sat around the table together eating a full English that my dad had cooked. The only meal he'd ever cooked, and he nailed it as well. It was just a very simple, like, childhood, but, like, full of love and full of laughter.

My grandparents played a big role in raising us as well, so I do remember, like, lots of trips away with them to Hewitt's farm, where we'd go strawberry picking and apple picking day trips to the park with my grandma and grandpa. It was just, it was great. And were you always quite a sort of outgoing, bubbly person? Yes, I actually was at school. I think there was a kind of all the kids in my class.

I remember on the last day of term, there was like a questionnaire, which person in your class is most likely to be prime minister? Which person in your class is most likely to be famous? Which person in your class is most likely to do this and that? And everybody said that I was the person that would be most likely to be famous, which is really funny. Because I don't see myself as famous, but I kind of like, you know, I won Big Brother in 2002. And that kind of, that was a pretty big deal back then. That was a huge deal. And so it was quite funny.

And I was in the school productions of Sweet Charity and Cabaret. I play the MC in Cabaret. I have a phrase for that, which is I call that the look at me, Jean, that I think, do you know what I mean? Some people have it. And, you know, often we use quite negative language to describe kids in that way, show off, attention seeker. And actually it's not a negative. It's just a different way I personally think the brain is wired.

But yeah, I was like at secondary school, I think it really, at primary school I just remember all of us kind of doing okay and we weren't really that naughty, we were just fine. Then in secondary school, my twin sister was so naughty. She used to get in so much trouble. and she was in all the bottom sets because she just didn't concentrate and I think if she was in school now

she would have been diagnosed with ADHD and she won't mind me saying that like back then she used to have to like sit in a room with a teacher once a week and they'd show her like flashcards like what do you see? Draw yourself look here we go here we go

so this is Shirley trying to play but then she gets scared she absolutely loves to run and she wants to be chased this makes me so happy honestly I'm so happy when I watch her do zoomies Baxter and Ray are sort of looking on like, what on earth are you doing? No, he's so judgy.

You embarrassed of her? She embarrassing you. Oh, Baxter. Come on, Shirley. Come on, Shirley. Obviously, you've mentioned Big Brother already, and one thing I like about you, Kate, is that you always seem to be someone who's very comfortable talking about Big Brother, because I know a lot of the time when people start.

their public life in that way they feel a bit I don't want to talk about this whereas I love that you're like yep I'll go there do you know what though I think for a long time I was really embarrassed and why you want to talk about Big Brother I think Big Brother's come full circle now it's only now 20 years on you can look back it and say actually that was an iconic bit of TV the early episodes were despite what you might think of it the people that go on it's just it was such an incredible idea as a format I actually only think that There's been one TV show since that has been like, wow, what an incredible.

And that's The Traitors, the first series of The Traitors. I was like, this is an unbelievable idea for a TV show. And I feel like the first ever series of that, you were watching it, like, just that first ever series of Big Brother. By the way, and Katie Nillowl can hear that, that's a school sports day. Even though what Kate was saying was quite profound and interesting, she passes by one, queuing up to applaud her. I wish you hadn't have said that then.

And nobody just left it. So people would have thought what I did say was that profound that it deserved a random but no it is interesting that series which like most of the nation was it was it 10 million people or something watch the line out was the most viewed series which is incredible because when you get to those sort of figures it's sort of large percentages of the population you know are very familiar with you and not just familiar with you in the sense of your performances all but really intimate aspects of your psyche and to have emerged from that show which you did as so likable well was was quite a feat really it's um it was a risk it was

definitely a risk it was because not everybody has a positive experience of going on to that show it was a pretty lucky year to do that Shirley calm down she's a reactive dog so hear all the other dogs barking she's there has to have her say yeah do you know what I mean like I think if you were to choose any year to go into Big Brother you would have chosen season two or season three because if you look back now and they said you could you could have been on any one of those which one would it be two or three one two or three because it was still very much a social experiment nobody really understood the format or kind of gameplay or what

would happen after you left the house I didn't even want to do it it was my twin sister who wanted to do it I was just printing the application form for her and she said there was too many here he comes come on son oh look at him go good boy should we get you some water Baxter come on Baxter are you interested would you like some water it's one of my favourite noises that dog drinking water I love it and dog eating raw vegetables oh do you know yeah I might listen to that to help me sleep if I hear any human being masticating if I hear any human being eating with their mouth open I want to

punch them in the face if it's a dog yeah It's the funniest thing ever. I could just listen to it for hours. I feed them raw vegetables. They love it. Carrots, broccoli, red pepper, apple, anything crunchy just so I can... No wonder they're so healthy.

Yeah, they have raw veggies every day with their food. They love it. Looking back on Big Brother, what do you think was the quality you had? The single quality, if you had to single out one, that made you win that show? Well, I was told by the... producer that the reason I got in as a housemate and I got chosen do you want a coffee? Yeah I'm gonna get one. I might hold Raymond and Baxter's quite happy to be just

sat in the pram over here. Can they jump out with the pram? He wouldn't be able to know. Oh right. She would he's he's too old and too slow. Oh okay yeah. So they don't even try to jump out. Oh no he wouldn't I'd never put her in it. He's only in it because he's very old and he's recently been poorly. He's coming up 14 and he's had pancreatitis he nearly died so it slowed him right down and the thing is she needs a she needs a good walk so watch him try and jump out now he will what have you got in your arms it's a dog you too I don't feel we went down very well in the dog park what do you Another dog.

Another dog. I think we caused a bit of a stir in the dog area. What do you think, hey? What is that? And you went, nice to meet each. I love that response. So we've just been to the cafe for a little stop. And before we went to the cafe, we were talking about Big Brother.

I was wondering what quality you thought had made you triumph in that show. And so, I mean, not just win it, but also be an incredibly popular, likable winner. I think it was a bit of luck. I think it was always going to be a woman who won that year. They'd had a straight white male win. They'd had a gay male win. And then I think the British public were ready for a female to win. I feel like we wanted a different person to win every time.

No, I'm sorry, Kate. I'm not buying that. No? There's always something. There's a pattern, isn't there, with people who win? those shows. I think with you, I think there was a lack of neurosis. I think what people tend to have in common who win those shows, I don't think they're very neurotic, which rules me out sadly. I think they're also quite straight talkers. Yes, I was very straight talking and I think you're right,

like I wasn't neurotic in there. I was a bit of a drunk. I was a bit of a, I hate this term Ladette but I think oh so so horrible so awful ladette you used to do a dance I knew I did the knee dance yeah but that wasn't even my dance that was Johnny Regan's dance he came second and then I kind of adopted it it was the World Cup or it was it the World Cup or it was the Euro's I think it was the World Cup it was the World Cup it was 2002 right because I'm pretty sure someone shouted over the fence England around the World Cup and told us all we were devoid but I was a footy fan and I did keep yuppies in my audition video and that's what I think I'm pretty sure I remember Phil

Edgar Jones the executive producer of the series saying I got picked to be a housemaakes I could do keep yuppies and it was a big year for football I think I wasn't intimidating enough for women to hate me because I wasn't like attractive beautiful I wasn't intimidating for girls and I was maybe the whole like laddie I hate that phrase but I don't know maybe I just appealed to I think a lot of my voters came from women. I remember really liking you from quite early on. I was just drunk, though. And I do, I've got to say, when I'm drunk, I am quite entertaining.

I will say that. I do think, though, the key to winning those shows is generally authenticity, isn't it? Let's be honest, you rarely win those shows or even, you know, getting the last two or three. if there's artifice or you're playing a part, I think the people who are in those shows, they're always presenting themselves as much as any of us can. It's really hard to not be yourself,

in Big Brother especially for nine weeks, which is what I was in the house for. You could go in and think, I'm got a game plan, I'm going to be this type of person, but the cameras are rolling for 24 hours. You can't hide behind anything or anyone. Your real personality is going to come out of, you within the first few days of being there like the real you will eventually

show and I don't know it's like for me a good housemate is one that like I thought Jade was a fantastic housemate despite the fact that a lot of people didn't like her you know as a housemate she was very divisive she was she nearly got evicted in the first vote for me like a housemate that just causes lots of drama as a great housemate I don't think I caused a lot of drama I think I was quite a boring not boring I wouldn't say it was a boring housemate but I was I was I was a boring housemate but I was I kind of just I rode that wave of Shirley find it I wasn't so like out there that people like get her out and then I wasn't just like a

boring housemate so then I didn't just get voted out straight away but I think you were entertaining without being you know sometimes on reality shows people go far and I'm not naming names here but sometimes people go far because you know it's a slowing down to look at the car wreck aspect of it and I don't think that was true in your case. I think there was more an element of oh I like this girl I don't want her to go because she's funny and likable but I imagine winning a show like that Kate obviously it was life-changing you said afterwards well I just wanted the 70 grand I did it helped me buy a flat I was living with my mum and dad and I was single

and I really wanted to move out both my sisters have moved out with their partners and when you had a partner that it was much more easy to get on the property ladder, right? Because they could afford joint, you know, rental or paying the mortgage. And I was very much single. I just got back from living in Japan. I was supposed to be living in Tokyo. And then 9-11 happened. And my partner, who I was with, he got sent home.

If 9-11 hadn't happened and his company hadn't lost everyone in that tower, the first plane hit, we'd still be in Japan. I was training to be an English teacher. I was doing my TEFL. And that's what I was going to do. And then his company had a big reshuffle. And they sent him home. So we just had all our furniture ships to Japan.

And then I came home and thought, what am I going to do? That's why I ended up flying for Big Brother. Strange, isn't it? There's moments that happened. And you were how old at the time? I was 21 when I applied. And I'd just turned 22. And I actually thought I was so grown up.

I look back now and I was such a knob. I was so immature and so I didn't have a clue who I wanted to be. I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do with my life. I think I was a bit lost. Even though the psychologist, who I spoke to before I went into Big Brother, said, I'm a bit lost as to what, I'm confused as to why you want to do this show. He said, there's a lot of people applying who are missing something, but you seem like a very stable person with a good job and a nice family.

And I don't know what it is. I went, money. Money, Brett. I want the money. I want to win the money so I can buy a flat. And I did. And after I came out, he said, but you know, I'm still. counselling people who have had very bad experiences of being, you know, hated by the British public.

Some of them have had to move countries because of it. And I was quite cocky. I was like, but I don't think people are going to hate me because I'm not, I'm not a knob. And he was like, but what if the, you know, there's editing, you know, I was like, but I'm not, I'm not a knob, I'm not nasty. I'm a nice person. I'm quite friendly. I get on with anyone. I don't think I'd come across badly. I'm really pleased I did that show when there was no social media. Because, because, yeah, if you wanted to troll me, you had to put pen to paper and then put a stamp on an envelope and post me a letter. Oh, it was tough afterwards, though. I went into a hole, yeah, because you're literally overnight.

There was no internet, really. Everyone just had like that standard Nokia phone. You might, if you're lucky, had a BlackBerry with whack. Oh, is that the snake form, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And so there was no internet, there's no social media, there was just newspapers and magazines, and you were just thrust into the limelight, and you were on the cover of every newspaper and every magazine. and then it died down very quickly and then onto the next series everyone's attention went

and you quickly get forgotten about and then the work dried up and I was really down depressed I didn't know what I wanted to do I was going to go and live in Spain with my ex he was a footballer but then I just felt like he really wanted me to settle down and I said you know what if it doesn't work out between us and I've given up my career and my non-existent career in the UK I don't want to have kids yet I've got no interest in getting married so we broke up and then I learned to DJ and that's and then I was like right I'm going to just be a DJ. I always wanted to be a DJ. Always wanted to learn how to mix. So I did. And then I I toured the world, mainly UK and Ireland, but I went to some amazing places. I went to South America.

I went to the Middle East. It was great, but it was such a hedonistic period in my life. I went off the rails, and I very quickly realised that I couldn't keep up with this level of drinking and drug abuse. And so I had to just stop it all. And then I offered a job in Birmingham on the radio. And I thought, Yes, this is my chance to get out of the DJing and have a regular income, a regular job and make a career for myself in radio in 2007. This was five years after a wild five years of post Big Brother madness. And interestingly, that DJ world, Shirley's currently digging a hole right underneath you, Emily. Are you digging for worms? Are you digging a hole? Are you digging a hole?

This is why I bath her every single day. What are you digging for, Shirley? Find the buried treasure. find the buried treasure find it look at me find the gold get it

where is it get it oh my gosh she's a nightmare I'm so sorry hey lula's dog Shirley has just jumped all over me with muddy ballprints

and do you know what it was a weird thing I felt a real moment of just joy when she did that now if a man and I say man had come up to me

at the tube station and not coffee all over me. I know. I'd have gone rental. I'd have been furious. Whereas a dog doing that, all I felt was happiness. This is why dogs are a miracle.

They are the greatest joy that life can bring. That was so worth that moment of hilarity watching her do that. And the bomb that I felt. She's bonkers. Because she was saying to me, I want you to share in my digging joy. So that's interesting, Kate, with the DJing,

because you said in the past, there was a sense of people kind of, of making assumptions about you with music, that you'd be a bit, you know, don't stop, move, you'd be a bit S club. I know, the amount of requests I had in a club. A bit Heat magazine.

Would be, have you got anything by the Spice Girls? I'd be playing ear-bleeding techno. Because actually the techno heads didn't think for a second that I would like that sort of music, but then the Big Brother fans would come and see me and they'd be used to like, I guess, people in the public eye doing DJ appearances, but not actually mixing or maybe not playing.

like underground music, which was kind of in a way, it was probably why I didn't get booked for many gigs because I wasn't playing the big hits, the big commercial numbers that people wanted to hear. And then I couldn't be taken seriously as an underground DJ because I was on Big Brother. So I was fighting a losing battle with my DJ career. Did you watch that thing on Avichy, which I don't know if you saw that documentary. I never did. And that is such a sad story. It was so heartbreaking. But I suppose having had some insight into just that lifestyle, I suppose. There are similarities. Can you see how that spirals out of control, but the lifestyle in a way slightly enables bad habits and bad choices? Yeah, because when you get booked to DJ,

first of all, it's a nighttime event most of the time. I mean, at the time. I mean, at bar festivals, you're DJing at night, you're in a nightclub, there's alcohol, there's all the things that come with it and you get a rider. So like this was new to me as well. Oh, you're playing in our club tonight. What do you want? Bottle of vodka, do you want a bottle of champagne, do you want this, do you want that, they'd offer you drugs. I met people in Manchester and Leeds who were just wild and discovered all these narcotics that I'd never even heard of and tried them all, hated them all, but just wound up in a circle of people who I really, really liked hanging around with, but I knew if I was going to hang around

with these people and DJ for much longer that I'd probably ruined my life. And I just actually didn't want to do it anymore, which is fortunate because for some, addiction happens, which can lead to the unthinkable, right? So I was just done with it. My mental health was on the floor because I just, I actually respond quite badly to binges, like binge drinking and stuff like that, but I drank so much. And alcohol is the biggest one because it's such a depressive drug, isn't it? So I feel like there was just, all of these things have happened in my life. They're very sliding door moments like moving back to the UK from Tokyo because of an event and then being interviewed on Kerrang Radio about Big Brother and then being offered a job on

the Kerrang radio because that interview went well. And then actually all my family and friends didn't want me to go to Birmingham. They all trying to talk me out of it. They were saying, no, you don't want to go and live in Birmingham. And I just thought to myself, yes, I do. I need a job And I want to make a go of the radio. Because I had a job in radio in 2002 with Andy Peters. Kate and Andy's hit music Sunday. And he would arrive at the radio station, like from church, from having been to the gym,

having baked a fresh batch of banana bread. He'd have gone to Wagamamas and got his edamami. And I was rolling in from Pasha, vomiting outside the studio. And, like, hadn't slept, trying to do a radio show. And at the end of that year's contract, they were like, yeah, we're not going to renew your contract because you're basically a nightmare.

And you're not into this at all, are you? And I was like, no, I'm not. Once my job got taken away from me, I thought, oh shit, I'm gutted. Like, that could have been a real opportunity to make a career. So when I got off of this job in radio five years later, I thought, don't turn it down. Try and make a go of it like you should have made a go of it back in 2002.

Because you were already, I mean, you've done rise. Good girl, Shirley, well done. And you were brilliant at presenting, I thought. Oh, my, it was awful. No, I don't think you were awful. I don't think you were awful at all. I think it's such a hard thing to do. And I think, again, you were yourself. You were natural. Oh, I cringe when I look back at Rise. But I loved Ian Lee. He taught me a lot.

And so did Tim Shaw, the guy I worked with on Kerrang Radio, who was an absolute genius. You got fired from every radio station he'd ever worked on, including the breakfast show, which we started together. And then he got fired within three months of us working together. He was the one that brought me onto Kerrang Radio, and then he got fired for rigging a competition. and I was on breakfast having never done a on my own and they moved me quickly to drive time which was much more suited to me. You turned out to be brilliant at radio.

Find it. That was a real game-changing moment for you then, I think, wasn't it? Just in terms of your career but also your lifestyle and it ushered in, I suppose, Kate Lawler 2.0 in a way. Yes, you're right. Find it. Find it. Yeah, I know.

It's not. You're protecting us, darling. her bark is like a warning to us because she barks and she looks at us it's like, are you seeing this? Are you seeing the danger? She's kind of saying, I can't believe you're not getting into more of a state about this. There's an actual

pug Chihuahua cross here running in a slightly odd way. So, yeah, Kate Lawler 2.0 was actually the Kate that kind of like as well wanted to settle down and get a dog as well. I wasn't really into you know, I didn't want to settle down for a long time, but after I got the job in radio, I moved to Birmingham,

I really wanted to find somebody and settle down. And actually, it wasn't even about getting a dog. It was my partner who had to convince me to get a dog. Who'd have thought? And now I couldn't imagine life without one. That's when Baxter came into my life. And how did you meet your now husband? I met him after I'd broken up with my ex.

Is this a footballer? No. He's long as the past. When I was with my footballer boyfriend, it was 2004 or 5, I bought a dog. I bought a Westie, a puppy. You bought to you when you're with a footballer. A footballer's always buy a dog with him. He didn't make it past his vaccinations.

And I saw that as a sign. Yeah. I called him Elvis. I bought him from a pet shop. This is when you bought dogs from pet shops. Local pet shop in Bromley. Picked him out, loved him. She went, he's going to have his jab soon.

I was like, great. Call me when he's had his jabs. She called me in Madrid and she went, he hasn't responded very well to his jabs. We'll call you tomorrow with an update. And she said he didn't make it. I took that as a real sign that was not supposed.

was not supposed to get a dog. Yeah, so Elvis passed at like eight weeks old or nine weeks old, and then everyone asked me if I was gonna get another, and I just said, I feel like the universe is telling me that now is not the time for a dog. And it really wasn't, because I was half living in Spain, I was also still DJing at the time.

My life was, I couldn't even look after myself. I would sit most days in my flat, downloading music and me crunching up cold legs out of the box. I didn't cook, I couldn't clean, I just, I was a mess. When I moved to Birmingham, it was when I, you know, It was a fresh start. And then I met my ex

who I don't like really talking about because he stole my dog from me and I never saw him again. And that's a really sad story. That was his best mate. But we broke up and he wanted the dogs and I just said, look, I walk the dogs every day. I have a job where I work less hours than you.

I think I should have the dogs. It's only fair for the dogs. And his little brother, Kevin, who was also a little rescue Yorkie, who's this big, he was very cute. Yeah, he... we tried to share them. We did, we really did try and share them. I moved to Manchester for work. He carried on living in Birmingham. We tried to meet each other on the M6 every week.

It was a disaster because he wasn't over the relationship. And then one day, he found out where I lived, attacked me in the street, tried to still all both. I only got away with one. The police came and they knew that I'd been attacked. They could see because I, my knees were all bleeding, my jeans were ripped. I was in hysterics. My dog had just been stolen from me. He was in a mess as well. I like, the police said, we can get him back as long as you just give us the microchip certificate details just so we can prove that he's your dog. And unfortunately, when we adopted Kevin,

we put him in my ex's name. So legally, I didn't have a foot to stand on. So I did take him to court. I hired a family law solicitor, which cost me thousands. And the judge was the most unsympathetic prick ever. And was like, I don't even know why you're here? Like, why don't you just have one each? And I was like, you wouldn't do that to children.

But these are my babies, these are my kids. And they were best friends, Baxter and Kevin. They were besties. They were just together all the time. And they got on so well. It's not like these two. They kind of lived together, but they're not. They play fighting all day long, loved each other,

snuggled up together at night. And one day we went out for a walk. He went out for a walk with his best friend. And we came back without him, and I never saw him again. And the judge was just a knob. And I met my now husband two months after that breakup. up and I just said to him, look, I've just come out of a really toxic relationship. And he was fine because he lived in London, so actually that distance forced us to take it slowly.

So for the first year, we only saw each other like once a month. So how did you meet your now partner? And the Kerrang Awards. He worked for Kerang magazine Mojo Q doing sales. And I walked into the Kerang Awards and he said he saw me walk in and was like, oh, hello. I'm having that. And then they had the Kerang Awards, because it's rock and roll. They put a bottle of Yeagermeister on everyone's table, so I was like, shots anyone?

Don't remember the next hour, because we just got really drunk. Someone stole my food when I went to the toilet, so I didn't even eat. He made a bee line for me, and I said, I've got to go back to Birmingham. I was living in Birmingham still. And I was like, come back, get the train back with me. He was like, what? I was like, yeah, come on. Grab that bottle of Yeager, let's go.

I think we stole a bottle of wine from the Krammores, and we got on the train back to Birmingham. The rest is history. He thought it was a one-night stands. I don't really remember what happened, to be honest with you. So I was like, we should do this again when I'm sober. Couldn't even remember his name when we woke up. I was like, who's this sort in my bed? What's your name?

Did we? He was like, yeah, we did. I was like, okay, cool. You've got around that now by giving him his very own moniker. He has his own nickname on social media. He's handsome, isn't he? He's the handsome. The handsome, yeah. And yes, so our relationship started off very slow burner

because of what I was dealing with, with the ex and my dog being stolen and going to court. I couldn't handle somebody else being in my life. So we did two years long distance, and then I moved back to London because I lost my job in Manchester and radio. So I came back to London, looking for another radio job, and we lived together for about two years,

and then we dropped his Charlie. He's the best thing that's ever happened to me. I did tell him, though, when I met him, I'm not interested in children. I just, I love my dogs, and I'm just a dog person, and I just, these are my babies. I don't want kids. I just, I feel like, you know,

when people say, they just complete you, like they fulfill you like I love my daughter I shouldn't have to you know everyone knows how much I love my daughter but before I had her I was complete I felt fulfilled I believe that you can have a real purpose in life and you can have a fulfilled life without children in it I really do believe that as much as I would say to anyone like if you're thinking about having children and you want them yeah go for it but if you're like I don't want kids I would never say you know you've got to do it like everyone said to me it's the best thing you'll love to do. I would say if you really don't want children, if you don't know what you're missing out on,

then it's fine. Like obviously now I know, if someone said, you can rewind the clock and nobody ever has to know that you ever got pregnant or had a baby. But I know what I've got. I know my little girl now. I couldn't imagine the world without her. But before I had her, dogs fulfilled my life. I had so much more freedom. I could do what I want. I had more money. Kids are a fucking joke, they're so expensive. They are just like children. They are. And you wrote a brilliant book called Maybe Baby, which I loved Kate. Actually, as someone who's child free, I love that book, which I think is a real kind of testament to you and how you write and how inclusive that book felt. Because actually, that's not a book you'd imagine someone, you know, of me, a sort of middle-aged

woman who's child-free to pick up, but that's why I loved it. There are a lot of microaggressions when you don't have children. So many. And actually to have someone write a book about motherhood, which was so interesting and gave me such an insight into your experience, but there was no judgment against anyone regardless of their choice. I thought it was brilliant. Thank you.

I really try not to be judgmental. I mean, the microaggression I get now from only having one, it's not enough for people. But an only child is a lonely child. Do you know what? Like, I can't win. You don't have children. Oh, you're a cold-hearted bitch.

Oh, you don't know what real happiness is. Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. Because I was really happily child-free, and I feel for people who really do want children and who struggle. I really do feel for them. I've got some of my closest friends have had fertility struggles. But I really didn't like the question of, but why?

Why don't you want children? Because whenever anyone told me they were pregnant, if I was to say, oh, God, really? Why? Why do you want children? How big? Well, can you imagine the reaction saying that to somebody? God, I really want a kid, but why? Like, I didn't, that was actually me. Like, everyone's saying, you have a child and I was like, I just, I have no interest. Like, I genuinely, I love being an auntie. I'm not a very good auntie because I'm not very good with kids. But, like, I just, I'm happy for anyone who has a kid. But I just think that women can't do anything right. Like, if you have none, people ask you why, which is a really rude question, because you don't know someone's experience. You don't know why they haven't got children. Maybe they can't. Maybe they've tried and tried. Maybe they just don't want them. And if they don't, that's fine.

And then when you have one, oh, when are you going to have another one? Oh, I'm not. I'm very happy with one, thank you. Oh, but aren't you worried about her not having a brother or sister? Nope. The book was written after the podcast of the same name. We did a podcast, my husband and I called Maybe Baby.

Which was hugely popular. Because of the dynamic, which was he really wanted children and I didn't. I was very much child free by choice and happy with that decision. But it just, it got a lot of exposure. I ended up being on like loose women talking about it. And honestly, and it was mainly women that come at me with these comments as well. Like you don't know what real love is. You don't know what real love is?

I'm sorry, but I have a mum and a dad. Like I have siblings. I have, how could I not know what real love is? I get it. Now that I've got a child, I get the love that you feel for your child. I get that because they're ever evolving and they're ever surprising you. Whereas a dog stays, a dog is like a permanent toddler, right? A dog you always have to pick up.

poo you always have to feed it if you don't it will die like you can't just leave a dog but like whereas a child will grow up and it will learn to feed itself and it will learn to wipe its bum and it will move out it will get a job yeah these two never had a job in your life Baxter been on job seekers allowance since you were born Shirley's on the doll I was so happy before I had the dogs and it took me eight years of convincing because my husband the handsome he was very much like come on now like it's been a few years and I was just like I'm just still not ready I can only do this if and when I'm ready. And when I turned 40, there was something in me that switched overnight.

I was like, ooh, I'm ready for something else. Is it a new job? I think I might want to leave my job. I think you want a child. Anyway, car long story short, I did have one, but one is enough. And I know that our marriage wouldn't survive too, neither of my bank balance. I don't know how people are, my friend's just about to have a fourth. And it's just, it's just like, you know, if you haven't got any children, you think how, when, like, if you're child free by choice, you're like, how do people with kids do it? And then when you have one, you're like, how do people with multiples do it? And you've been really honest about, again, which is really refreshing,

and I think really helpful for people, about the kind of work that's involved in it and how it's not this rom-com end of the movie story where, and then we were blessed with the child. Yeah. Because actually, it's not without problems. I mean, that's where the work begins, I suppose, doesn't it, in terms of your relationship

and making sure that you have time for each other and you prioritise that. Yeah, I've spoken in. depth about how difficult it is to keep your relationship to keep that love alive and to maintain your relationship after you've had a child is people so having a kid is the hardest thing ever but it's keeping that relationship going and what it was before you had kids is just as difficult if not harder but I also think it's really important for anyone with a platform to be honest about whatever they're going through and some people aren't like me I'm a real

oversharer I actually like being honest I like to put the tough bits out there as well as the brilliant bits. Whereas social media is such a dangerous place I think because you've got people with millions of followers sharing the highlights of parenting and then you've got you know like Claire from Burnley with four kids like watching this going I'm not I'm not okay with four kids and like we're talking like I know somebody who's in the public eye and she's got like three kids she smashes it and she does all of this stuff and I'm like I remember DMing her when I had it was I was in the throes of the newborn days.

And I was just like, how are you doing all this work, exercising, keeping fit, having all these kids? And she was like, full-time nanny, babe. Full-time nanny comes on holiday with us. And I was like, oh, that's why. It makes me feel better now, knowing that, because actually I thought you were just doing this on your own. And it made me feel like crap that I was barely functioning with one. So I do think people have a duty to be honest about parenting. And actually, I think social media has now flipped.

I feel like I was one of the parents that was early on in, that kind of let's be more honest about what parenting is like. I don't think it was just me, but I think there was a lot of parents who wanted to just be a bit more honest, like scummy mummies were, they were just really honest about it. But I wanted to be honest about post-nated depression because I had a great pregnancy, a really nice birth, and then I never thought for a second that I would be depressed with a child. I thought from what I'd seen, it was the greatest thing ever,

because that's what anyone ever told me. Everyone was just like, it's the best thing ever, you'll love it. Motherhood's so good. You're going to love it. Oh my God, wait, do you have it? And it's also the worst possible thing in the newborn day. I hated the first year. Some people would do anything to go back to the newborn days when they have a toddler. For me, I would skip those in a heartbeat.

I love having a toddler. It's way better than the newborn. I was so depressed. I wanted to kill myself. I hated my life. I didn't know why I felt like it because I had everything that I could ever dream of. I had a house. I had a loving husband.

I had parents, siblings. everyone wanted to look after my daughter I was obsessed with my daughter I loved her so much there was no issue with bonding But there was something the chemical imbalance in my brain that was like I I hate my life I'm depressed, I'm sad I don't want to be here anymore what have I done? I've ruined my life my relationship isn't the same and I couldn't get out of that funk and it took a long time took a year maybe even 14 months for me to feel That dark cloud lifting away and even now I'm really honest about parenting because it's really hard and the people that stop me, the men that stopped me telling me, thank you for helping my wife, thank you for helping my daughter, thank you for making parenting the feelings you get when you're a parent,

for normalising the bad bits as well, the struggles. The army of people that were also in that kind of like, who could relate or who could relate from years and years ago, like messages from women going, I really, I went through Postal Network Depression and I didn't even know, but your book and you talking about it has helped me so much understand that what I was feeling was normal. I don't feel guilty now. My midwife didn't think I had postnatal depression. She was just like, you've got the baby blues, you'll be fine.

And it was my two friends who lived in America who was watching my stories on Instagram, who phoned my husband and was like, okay, it's not right. You've got to get her help. I got therapy and I went to the doctors. I got medication. My mum and dad even struggled to say, like, do you think you might have postnatal depression? Because I don't know if anyone really knew what was going on. I think it was really obvious when I look back.

Even that thing, the baby blues, it's interesting, you know, that it's minimising, actually, what's a really serious, you know, a mental health trauma, really, that you're going through. And you're going through this really serious thing, and it's called the baby blues. Or, and again, whatever stage of your life, it's, or she's going through the change. Yeah. These sort of neat little socially acceptable euphemisms that make you seem less female. almost. Yeah. Because then it doesn't become threatening and it's not difficult and we don't have to think about what you've had to go through in order to do this incredible, this incredible thing

you've done, which is bring another life into the world. But what we like to think is we don't want to be reminded sometimes of the tax physically and emotionally that you have to, that the woman has to pay for them. Of course. At that point, when I was struggling with that and I was trying to be honest about my journey was comments on the Daily Mail saying she's so unbelievably what was the word they would use I'm grateful she is lucky to even have a child why oh she's still moated about her kid again and she's still moaning and I'm like you know what the fact that I know I've helped people to normalize these feelings that you have throughout your whole life as a parent

not just when you're struggling in those apocalyptic newborn days is I don't care actually anymore but I used it really a really of affected me. I was like, I'm not ungrateful. I just think there'll be people out there and people who have struggled in the past. What do people do before social media or before, you know, decades ago? The amount of messages I got were like from women going, I just wish that I'd had someone like you to that, I wish this had been around when I was a new mum because I hated the newborn days or I struggled or I felt suicidal. So I will keep beating the drum. I still firmly believe that you can have an amazing life without children. I was really happy before.

I'm really happy now. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.