Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Kate Thornton (Part One)

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

Today Emily and Raymond are on Clapham Common with the legendary broadcaster Kate Thornton!Kate doesn’t have a dog, but she says she melts in the presence of canine beauty - and Ray absolutely adored her (I mean, who wouldn’t?!) .During our walk, Kate chats about summers in the Cotswolds spent in the back of her Dad’s dry cleaning van, her journey to overcoming bullying and she built an extraordinary portfolio career for herself.The second part of our walk with be available on Thursday!White Wine Question Time with Kate Thornton is a Stak production, available wherever you get your podcasts.Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I know I'd be that woman that goes, I can't come on holiday, so the dog will get lonely. You know, I'd leave the tell you on with the dog's favourite programme. I would be that person. You're not saying anything controversial so far. Okay. I mean, you just described my life. This week on Walking the Dog,

Raymond and I went for a South London stroll with radio and TV presenter and podcaster Kate Thornton. Kate first became pretty well known at the age of 21 when she was made the youngest ever editor of Smashits magazine. And since then, she's got to... on to become a hugely popular presenter on TV and radio, most famously hosting shows like X Factor and Loose Women. Kate's one of those people who you hear a lot of good things about, and as soon as she arrived, it was like Raymond and I had been bathed in sunshine. She was so

warm and funny. We actually didn't want her to leave, and in fact we ended up following her to her car. I know, a bit weird. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Kate. Do listen to her brilliant podcast, White Wine Question Time, where she has really revealed. and fascinating chats with incredible guests. And you can also catch Kate's show on Greatest Hits radio on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the fabulous woman herself. Here's Kate and Ray Ray.

Look, I've literally kidnapped your dog. What I like, Kate Thornton? Are we recording? We are. Great, that's a nice way to start, isn't it? Welcome. I love that you seized the reins like this, quite literally. You've just grabbed his lead and you're like on. I don't know.

I've identified with Ray because Ray's had about 18 weeks since I met him 20 minutes ago. his fringe needs a cut I relate and he's busy also relatable I found my spirit animal you ain't getting him back what do you think of him so far Kate Thornton I love him he looks like one of those little kind of like to describe to the listener I've listened to this podcast a lot over the years

and I never expected Ray to be this beautiful I don't think you're PRing him enough I didn't understand that he had long hair that's cut like his... He looks like the fringe of a monkey as in the band, not the animal. Now you'll see he does this, Kay. What does that? It's called Stubborn Shih Tzu Syndrome. Being a stubborn Shih Tzu.

Ray... Look at that. Now, somebody's come to sniff his bum. Hello. Hi. What's yours called? Buzz. Oh, Buzz.

I've got a friend with a son called Buzz. It's a lovely name. This is Raymond. Hi, Robbins. It's very formal. Nice to meet you both. Bye-bye. This is what I think is nice about the dog community.

The chats. And when you don't have a dog or a baby and you chat as much as I do, people think you're weird. And it's not, I mean, I've built a career on this. It's not weird. Is he having a poo now? We've only just, oh, blimey, I've just seen that.

That's why I don't have a dog. At least they're talking. Tiny poos, Ray. No, I'm not put off, but I'm not jumping up and down and going, let me do that for you. I understand. Yeah. But I was a bit like that with other people's children and their nappies. No problem doing my own sons.

With Ray, I'm fine with his poo. Yeah, but other dogs, you probably would think twice. I've got to be honest, I know I would say this, but I think he's got a better class of poo than a lot of other dogs. It's tiny. I mean, it was inoffensive. Well, it's. We're in your manner, Kate, so I'm following you. So I don't actually live here. I just thought this was a good halfway house for us.

Yeah, I'm about 20 minutes from here in Dulwich. But I just thought that's such a long way for you to come. So we're in Clapper Mold Town, home of the late, great Vivian Westwood. Oh, is this where she hung up. Yeah, this is where she lived. Oh, look at that. In conversation, Ralph Little, as we walk past the omnibus theatre. He's a lovely man.

What's going on? What's going on? You can't go to the theatre. Come on, Ray. Ray, what's my? If I give you the lead, will he be more obedient? No. Oh, okay.

But you know what? Oh, he is a bit. Come on, Ray. But he knows. He thinks, oh, I've got a new one here. She'll be a bit of a soft touch. Oh, he must be like such a showbiz dog. Like, oh, Jesus.

Here's another. Another lovy that's going to tell me I'm cute and then never see me again. It's like really harsh dating. Yes. as one light stands. He does. He slept with half of show business. Oh look at this dog. Oh, this dog in a buggy. I love a dog in a buggy. Three dogs, one in a buggy. Oh, how old is he? 14. Oh, goodness me. Yeah, but it does. In fact, it's happening to a... So we're just making him as happy as he can be. As comfortable as he can be.

Oh, long life, my friend. Bye-bye. I'm already got tears in my eyes. Okay. I'm going to cry now. Are you? Because that dog's about to die and it's in a buggy and I can't cope because she loves that dog so much.

She's pushing him around the streets in a freaking children's buggy and it's full of blood for it. That's just like, it's devastating. Look, are you not going to cry? Or is it just me? Is it my hormones? So I love this common and it's well trodden ground for me, especially in my sort of buggy years as a mother.

So, look, so Graham Green used to live here, which I think is rather beautiful. Look at this house, it's sort of the time of year as well, dripping in wisteria, iron gates. It's a little slice of garden London. And this is, we should say, we're at Clapham Common. We're outside Graham Green's house. And as you say, it's the most beautiful house.

It's dreamy, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, the symmetry of the area. And there's a man in the window putting on a pullover. I don't... We're staring at him. I feel we've intruded on his privacy, but if you will live in Graham Green's house.

Then what do you expect? You'll do plaque on the wall. But yeah, it's kind of pretty round here. Isn't this lovely, Kay? And it's a little slice of quiet in an otherwise very sort of noisy neighbourhood because you've got Ballam over there. You've got Brixton over here.

Brixton runs into Peckham. And Dulwich is a bit like that. it's this kind of little green enclave in amongst all of this urban madness. And I like having the ability to hop between the two. Well, I'm so thrilled to have you on this podcast. I'm with the wonderful Kate Thornton. Oh, thanks. And we're with Ray.

Kate doesn't have a dog, but I still love her. I don't have a dog for probably, I hope, only good reasons, which is, I think, you know, you've spent 10 minutes with me. You've seen how quickly I melt in the presence of canine beauty. And I'm a single full-time working parent who just couldn't... If I had a dog, I would love that dog so hard. Plus I'm a feeder, so it would probably die of obesity. But I know I can't give a dog the commitment that I would like to give a dog.

So for that reason, we don't have one, despite my son's best begging. I like that you own a bit Dragons Den. So for that reason, I'm out. I'm out. But, but, never say never. Because it's quite interesting when you get to this stage. Like my son's doing his GCSEs at the moment. And this is Ben.

Ben, yeah, yeah. So Ben, your son. Ben, my son is doing his GCSEs. So the idea of having something in the house that's happy to see me. Because when I used to pick him up from school, his face would light up when I walked into the playground. You know, that hot hand that you would hold on the way to school in the morning is, you know, holds his girlfriend's hand now as it should be, right?

So the idea of having a dog who's so full of love for you and excitement is very compelling. But equally, I know I'd be that woman that goes, I can't come on holiday so the dog will get lonely. I'd leave the heating on all day so the dog doesn't get cold. You know, I'd leave the tell you on with the dog's favourite program. I would be that person. You're not saying anything controversial so far. Okay. I mean, this is, you just described my life.

And I'm very happy with it. Well, Ray is great. Well, I agree with what. You're absolutely right. There is something lovely about, I call it just having that little beating heart permanently in the home, you know? Just a happiness that follows you everywhere. And, you know, you go for a shower, you come back out.

It's like you've been gone for a year. They're so thrilled you're back. There's a simplicity to their love, right? 100%. It's very. uncomplicated and they don't bear grudges and there's no I'm just feeling really annoyed about that thing you did in 1997 there's no resentment dogs don't do resentment literally brilliant do you know what I mean I just had Jack D on my

podcast and he was talking about his dog and his love of dogs and it's the only time I've ever heard Jack go I mean literally Gaga it was so cute so they have the ability to extract a different you, I think. Well, Kate, you haven't got a dog. We've already established, but you've fallen in love with Raymond. Definitely. Can we go back to Kate Thornton, Jr., Kate the early years, and this was in the Cotswolds? Am I right in Cheltenham?

Yep, I'm born and raised in Cheltenham in Gloucestershire, which sounds terribly fancy. But we're kind of, you know, the support staff of the course. Hotswolds, my lot. You know, all those people that live in nice houses, we clean them. No private education, poor moire. Just to be clear. Have you ever watched This Life by Daisy May Cooper? This country, sorry, this country. That's my upbringing. And I'm so proud of it and I love it. And this is your mum, Sandy? My mom's called Sandy. My dad's called Dennis and I have a brother called James. Everyone calls him Jim. He's a firefighter, as his eldest daughter, Georgia, who I'm hugely proud of.

She's in her early 20s. She's kicking ass. So, yeah, that's us. You said that's really interesting that, yeah, people say the Cotswolds and they tend to assume David Cameron. Yeah, they think I'm literally hanging out with, I don't know, Liz Murdoch, eating bryosh in my country pile. No, cleaning. Your dad was a hydraulic engineer? That's right, yeah. So he started out being a dry cleaner, which is the job he loved of most. And he ran the dry cleaners for sketchlies, which was a bit of a chain back in the day, in Cheltenham, and employed most of his family. So we come from a very well-pressed family.

Can I say you do look immaculate, Kate? Hardly. And it was, he loved it. We ran it like, I suppose he ran it like a family business. And in the school holidays, I mean, this would never happen now. Let's head over there. Follow Kate. Where's Kate?

There she is. Come on, Ray. My dad, in the school holidays, like, so now when you've got children, you have to do, like, you know, summer clubs and half-term activity camps or whatever. But we didn't really have that. So my dad used to put us in the back of us, sketched his dry cleaning van, right? Which was just right. I think about this. It's so wrong.

No windows, right? No windows. You're just surrounded by plastic polything bags, yeah? Full of dry cleaning. And you're just rolling around the courtswolds all day trying not to die. Happy holidays That's my Cotswold upbringing

My dad go well You know Yeah but you know what We had a lovely time I wouldn't have changed it And if anybody else was short of childcare They'd just bundling as well What did you do today children

A sketchly round Stayed alive Stayed alive Delivering dry cleaning But my mum and dad So my dad had to give that up To take work That was better paid basically

and I saw somebody sacrifice something they loved for the greater good which was a really big thing for me to kind of carry around in my head in terms of, you know, my dad's importance was all just do something you love. So he would work nights in a factory

because it paid well and my mum would work days and they were like ships in the night you know, they would tag team it. And your mum was cleaning, is that right? No, she was initially and then she went to work for Sainsbury's and my mum's just like inordinately bright

and I think if she, were born in the same generation in the same age that we were she would have had a really big chance at a big career but those jobs you know I didn't know anybody that had careers until I left Cheltenham yeah people had jobs we didn't talk about career we went to a career's advice officer but my career's advice officer when I said I want to be a journalist said like rolled her eyes and said you just think about typing like go and working a typing pool I mean that was that was it, you know, that was the mentality. So my mum actually went on and did lots of great stuff and every job she went into, she was elevated, promoted, all the way up until retirement.

So she was brilliant. And she and my dad both kind of really inspired me and my brother to like, just do something you love. Like you're at work all day, every day. You're there more than you're anywhere else. Just do something you love. So it turns out my brother loves fire or putting them out and saving lives, which is madly heroic, and I just walk and talk and write. That's really interesting what you were saying about your school, which was a sort of local... Yeah, local state.

Come on, Ray. I mean, that's just like Prozac on legs, just galloping around, looking all sexy, Ray. He does like female energy. Does he? Do you know what? He's a bit shallow. He likes very pretty women.

Although I did recently, I said on, Catherine Rama's on the podcast and I said, I did tell the world he had a micro penis. Hush! He does, Kate. It's... Is that a bad thing in Dog World? I mean, do they judge the size? I don't know.

Will we ever know? Will we care? Do you know, I like it because it means he'll never leave me. Oh my God, you're so needy. I'm so needy. Jesus, he loves you. Can't you see that? It doesn't matter about me.

It'll never be enough. It doesn't matter about what he's packing. He's never going to leave you. you feed him and I'd like to say it doesn't matter. I'm not going to lie. You're just telling me about your school actually. Yeah, yeah, school. That's interesting that the career, was it the careers officer?

Yeah. He said, who sort of discouraged your journalism. My dad went mad. My dad marched up the school and had to go out and said, if she wants to walk on the moon or be the next female prime minister, she can. I was like, come, dad. So yeah, he was quite feisty. And I really, I tell this story because I think it's really wrong to people to put a lid on kids.

And I felt like she put a lid on me. But fundamentally, you know, that was a lot of experiences of people of, you know, what am I at 51. You know, I think we were probably amongst the first generation of young women that were encouraged to go to university. I didn't, but, you know, many did. So I think, you know, it's a bit like the Romans building the roads out. We're a different generation. And with that comes a little bit of push and shove between the generations. That woman didn't come with any malice.

She didn't know about a career in journalism. She can't advise me on what she doesn't know. But she knows typing, and she knows the biggest employer in the town needs typists. So that's safe advice. So, you know, I get it. I get it, but it wasn't particularly helpful at that time. But, you know, the school that I went to, like all my cousins went there, everybody that lived nearby went there.

That's how it was back then. You know, that's not how it is now in London. Certainly, that's not been my experiences as a parent. But then it was like, you know, if you lived near this school, you went to that school. Yeah. And, you know, so I would cycle to my nams every day with my brother from our house. Leave our bikes at my nams. She'd give us 20 p to get an ice cream at lunchtime.

We'd then pick up my other two cousins that lived literally. at the bottom of her garden and we'd all get the bus together to school. That was the start of our day. That's lovely. Then we'd at lunchtime, I'd see the rest of my cousins in the playground. And if anybody kind of started on me or if there was any trouble, you know, you had this, this ring of Thornton around you. It was lovely. So it was, yeah, very different to, I guess, the education and upbringing my sons had. So this was where, I don't know if you remember this is where everyone came to pay their respects to say it everard. So I still think of her every time I walk past this you know.

And every time I walk past and I drive that route a lot, the route that she was on. But yeah, all life lives on this common. Look, you've got all the dog walkers, then you've got a little class of nursery school kids there going out for games. They're very well behaved. I like those kids. Tell me about your school years because I know you've, you should have gone on record and I think it's great that you've done this, that to say, you know, that you did struggle with bullying, didn't you? You were bullied at school, Kay. Yeah, and actually, probably hadn't really fully processed the degree to which it impacted me until many years later when I made a documentary

about having had eating disorders for Channel 5. And suddenly, I told myself all my life, I think I had an eating disorder because fundamentally I felt I was a large child and I wanted to control that. Which is a very basic narrative. It's never that simple. And actually what it translated as is actually I was being really horribly bullied and I blocked a lot of it out because it was like, you know, I'm talking death threats, the police involved, you know, that kind of level. And the school just wasn't equipped to deal with it. So it was just me and my mum and dad really. and me just shaking on a Sunday night with fear thinking what's going to happen tomorrow when I go back to school. So because a lot of the bullying focused on my appearance, I just thought if I, if I'm smaller, they won't do it.

So that was my cod psychology on how that unfolded. So yeah, that took up a lot of my school years. I'll be really honest in terms of my bandwidth of, in my head space. Not all bad. I had amazing friends as well alongside me for the majority of. of it who were lifelines and remain, you know, really good friends to this day. It's real. But it was tough, it was shit.

It's trauma. Yeah, there was fear. That fear, and we didn't call it fear back then or anxiety, but it definitely was that. And you stand back now and I just feel sorry for those people. I know where they are in their lives now and, you know, come as a bitch. But it is though, isn't it? is in as much as, you know, you behave badly, bad things tend to happen, you know. But they were children, so I'm really not going to sit in judgment over their behaviours.

And a lot of it's learned behaviour or unchallenged behaviour. Or, you know, if my mum had got a call from the school saying, your daughter is bullying somebody, my God, she would have had my guts for garter. Do you remember that expression? But, you know, some of these kids were going home and getting high-fived for it, because it meant they were hard. You know, well done. So you have to wrap all of that around it,

which I can now, but I couldn't at the time. So yeah, so that took up a lot of my head space, I suppose. I remember you saying once, I found it really heartbreaking, actually, and you said you thought it was normal to keep a whistle by the phone. Because would they call your home and that's what you do? Well, yeah, because you could keep hanging up. you'd leave the phone off the hook

but there was no other way to you couldn't block them like you can now so my mum bought a whistle and we put it by the phone and when they would do these calls like you're going to die tomorrow that kind of I mean that kind of stuff

we would just literally but any member of the family could pick up the phone and just go oh it's them again and blow the whistle and we had to normalise it because I had to keep going into school there wasn't like oh should we move her or hey tell you what

should we move these bullies out of the school there was none of that then. So, well, certainly not at that time in that school. So, yeah, it was tough. It was tough. But that is life sometimes. Sometimes that is people's lived experience, and it was mine. Listen, I did all right as a result of it.

I rallied, I got myself better, and I got there in the end. Would I want my son to go through that? Absolutely not. 100% not. But I think we are far more alive to that kind of behaviour. than we were back then. And looking back, Kay, that's really interesting what you were saying about how you do see a connection between the eating disorder issues and the bullying. But equally, I also, what I did find out in the documentary was that I was predisposed to, so we're born with this kind of tiny little valve, I suppose, I suppose, trying to simplify it.

And, you know, if you've got that and something triggers it, you're predisposed to that kind of extremity in terms of your behaviour. And I was. So, I mean, equally, you know, I can't say they gave, they triggered that. The behaviour, and it was collective behaviour. It wasn't just one person. It was a collective. Triggered that. But as much as I fell into that behaviour and it is a mental illness, I also pulled myself out of it.

And that's something really worth talking about. I think, you know, I learnt very on, very early on, how to pull myself into a better place. I had talking therapy with a doctor. And I just, you know, by the time I was an adult, I'd already had a big life experience in terms of having to repair and myself and have a really strong word with myself because nobody else was going to make me better. I had to do that myself. So yeah, so that's, you know, fundamentally, when you look back at 51 years of age, you go there was value in some of that stuff.

It wasn't all negative. It was very difficult at times. But by the time I moved to London very young to start a life here at college on my own, which took a lot of balls. And I think that all of those experiences gave me really big cahones. and I arrived really knowing myself actually

probably much better than most 19 year olds so you had resilience huge amounts which I've needed across the years as we all do in life you know it's a wonderful quality to harvest I don't think you're born with it I think you grow it do you know what's tough you're right in order to you know to get that

to understand how to talk to somebody who's going through grief you sort of have to chalk one up yeah and it's a same thing with that that actually in order to gain resilience the awful thing is you sort of probably have to go through something you do and I think and actually across life whenever life gets a little bit tough I'm like I've draw back on that experience of recovering myself from anorexia and bulimia which was you know you have to go through the painful stuff don't try and self-medicate don't

try and blot it out stop trying to walk around it just go straight through it with your eyes open feel it and you'll get through this much quicker because everywhere you look at it this is going to hurt what's the fastest way through the pain and what's the most valuable and then just make sure you learn something off the back of it because if you don't then it's just a mistake but if you learn something it's a lesson and there's value in that that set me across certain points of my life in terms of being able to go hang on a minute this is not my first rodeo I know this is going to hurt but ultimately it will be better for it at the end of it so I try to draw back on that sometimes with more success

than others but you know I feel myself turning into a wiser age you sound like someone who's done an awful lot of work on yourself yeah I studied as a therapist and qualified as one because that okay that was oh ages ago when Ben started school and he's just finishing now so like yeah a school lifetime ago when he was four or five so ten years ago and it was just and actually my college was just over here so I would quite often come and walk the common at lunchtime to catch some air So yeah, I studied in Clapham.

I did one day, a week in class, and pretty much every night in my desk. I just wanted to see if I still had a brain in my head. And my son was going to school, and I thought, I think I'd probably had a bit of imposter syndrome because I never went to uni. And I work in an industry full of the brightest sparks. And that's my own issue, you know, is like, oh, am I bright enough to do a degree? The answer is probably not, but I'm just bright enough to get through life, so I'm okay. Of course you are, and 10 times bright, I'm in a lot of.

people who've got degrees but I think I just think we're all bright in different ways and I don't think you can measure you know I certainly see this now as my son's going through exams I see all of his potential but I wouldn't judge it on a piece of paper in two hours so he's just got I keep saying to him you just got to get through this and then you can dazzle in whatever you choose to do because he's got it all can we just clock the cuteness 12 12 nursery kids sat on a log having their picture taken smiling That is lovely See that makes my over his twinge

I think let's walk with them because they might like Ray It's such a nice treat for kids They love Ray Look at you going Look at my beautiful dog Look at my dog Come on

How can you resist I want to get the likes from the kids Kate That's how desperate it is Ray's being chased by a sausage dog Oh the children aren't really giving As much love as I'd hoped Kate I'm quite disappointed

I'm not going to lie I'm not surprised I mean, they've actually blanked him. Life lesson, Ray. Almost walk out of a room where no one's giving you a minute, all right? So Kate, I'm really interested to know about your arrival in London.

Yeah. Make you sound like Dick Whittington. I know. But it was a bit like that, wasn't it? Because you suddenly, what happened? Did you suddenly just think I want to move? Oh, look at this dog. What happened?

That gave me a bit of a shock. So there was a little, he's a friend. French bulldog and he's got little blue black PVC boots on. He's very wobbly. Maybe it's the shoes. What has he got black? He's walking like a drunk dog. Like a really, really

like two night outs on the truck dog. He's got sort of black leather boots on. But only two, not four. What's that all about? He lost the other two last night. It's hammers. He looks like he's on the way back from some sex done. He looks like he's been clubbing for two nights.

It's the walk of shame. We've all been there. He's had chem sex. Chem sex, what's that? You're there okay. I don't. I'm looking at you like, and? All night?

Oh, not all, four days. Four days? Jesus, I've been broken by the end of that. Anyway, good luck to them. Sounds horrific. I'm not signing up for chem sex, just so you know. I like that you went a bit Maggie Smith and Downton Abbey. What play is chem sex?

It's like when she asks what's... Clutching my pearls. Is that when she says, what is a weekend? That is getting upset. So Kate, tell me about when you first arrived in London. Yeah. So I went to the London College of Printing. But what, did you just think I need to get to London?

Was it quite a sort of... No, I needed to study and qualify as a journalist. So, and that was the only course I got offered a place on. I was turned down by everyone else. But it was the course I wanted. But it was actually an incredibly prestigious college. It was the work course. So when I got turned down by the NUJ courses and like, you know,

a course in Wales and stuff, I was like, shit, I've got nowhere to go. And I'd already done work experience on the local paper. I'd got a job on one of the local free sheets, paying the newspaper boys, right? So every week, you remember those free sheets that they used to just stick through, you like unwanted spam through your letterbox?

I used to have to count up in cash in little brown envelopes their pay and give it to them but it meant I had a pay slip from a local free sheet so when I went to the London College of Printing I said I'm already working for my local bank I didn't say what I did I just said I was working there and here's my pay slip and I go in after school and I go in on weekends

and they were like they were really impressed by that so I hustled my way in to what I think is probably one of the best courses in the world world actually. And it was really as lovely as like, so now there's a lot of great people that have passed through those classrooms. Like the brightest kid on our course he was called Max. I remember when we left he got a job editing

razzle, a porn mag and I was like, didn't see that coming. Sorry no pun intended. I ended up and smash it. Who knew? You should have been editing the porn mag with With quotes like that, I didn't see that coming. You would have been a natural headline writer for it. It's not season, asleep. Spitting rhymes.

That's another one. I could go for days with this. It's like chemsex for headlines. I could go for days. Yes, that's it. No, I've started. I can't stop. Make me stop.

Another one? Yeah. So. Sorry, you wanted a serious conversation about what? So you went to LCP and that was a year was it? It was like a journalism course. It was just a year but you had to get like work experience as part of the college qualification. So I did and I got offered a job straight out of work experience which was amazing because

I was screwed otherwise I needed to find work like immediately. I had to know fallback. So I took some work experience. I had a very brief foray into Fleet Street where I became a columnist. at a very young age, just purely because I put my hand up and volunteered, and said, I'll do it for no money, which I did. And then they paid me. And then by 21 I was at Smash Hits.

So, you know, I was like the original hot stepper. I was like literally, bang, bong, bong, in. And, yeah, it was kind of like probably the youngest staff member at Smash Hits, despite being in charge of them all. It was really weird. Well, what was interesting to me about that, Kate, is that you were working at the mirror, as you say.

Yeah, I started there as like literally I'll book you a cab or make you a cup of tea. I remember Alistair Campbell being so nice to me and Anne Robinson being such a bitch because they were both columnists there and it was really interesting actually

because Anne was my first guest on this woman when I anchored the show and she came on and I said oh it's not our first time meeting and she went oh was I nice to you I said no you're not you really weren't you could learn from Alistair Campbell

How did she take it when you said that? She just, you know what? No, she was, she doesn't give a shit. She's Han Robinson, for God's sake. I mean, I sort of love her. But she just, she didn't look at, you know, when somebody doesn't even acknowledge you, it was that. Because arguably she was very busy.

But Paul Foote, who was a bit of a hero of mine, Alistair Campbell, a bit of a hero of mine, grew up reading the mirror in our sort of very labour voting family. you know for me walking onto that newsroom floor and meeting them and even just passing them cups of tea was a bit like being in my favourite part of Madame Two Swords. So you were at the mirror and then how did you get the job editing Smash Hits at 21? So Mark Frith who was the editor of Smash Hits at the time told me that he was leaving. He was going on to edit another magazine that I loved called Sky and he said you know you should

throw your hat into the ring because there's no obvious internal candidate and they're looking for an outside person and I was like I'm 21 I don't know I can't do this and I said I've actually never been for a job interview and he was like well just do it for the interview experience I wanted to leave newspapers I didn't it wasn't a right fit for me you either you're either cut out for that kind of work or you're not and I really wasn't and I would be the one sat there with my arms cross going but where's the public interest and they're like are you brand new and I'm like yeah But I don't, yeah, I love being a journalist, but I do think we have to keep a very close eye on what we're interested in versus what is public interest and understand this significance of the two.

And that was really, so I just thought, do you know what, I think I'm going to enjoy magazines more. And I'd actually started on the Sunday Mirror magazine, so I'd had a minute's experience of that. So, so some remarks said, just come and apply. And he was really lovely to do that actually because we didn't know each other hugely well We were on the same circuit I suppose And so I applied And I did like 10 hours of interview

And it was with really great people Like Mark Ellen and David Hepworth Were part of the publishing team there And they'd presented the old grey whistle test You know I'd grown up watching them on telly They'd come up with Q magazine You know again for a young hungry To Learned Journalist

I felt like I was working with some of the biggest badasses in the business. And they were very kind to me and they were very supportive. But Kate, I can't stress to you enough how extraordinary that is. I know, I know. I know. That is... Well, it just doesn't happen, does it? Actually, I've probably had more confidence at 21 than I would now.

I wouldn't, you know. I mean, somebody actually asked me recently, and I say recently, in recent years, if I would consider going back to editing a magazine. And I just, the fear, I was like, are you insane? The last time I entered a magazine, we didn't have email. I mean, like, honestly, I used to chromolin pages, and I had a pager. Like, no, of course I can't edit a magazine now. I didn't have that self-doubt at 21, I don't think, that I would probably have today.

So you were pretty fearless. Just young, inexperienced. have been stuffing knocked out of me yet. I think there's a lot to be said for that. Also, you were ambitious and finally we live in a world where you're allowed to say that to a woman and it's a compliment. Yeah, but for a long time it wasn't. Yeah. And I definitely felt that. Really? I definitely felt that if I was a boy, I would have been like one to watch. And as a woman, I was like, she's a bit gobby. And if I said no, oh my God. But I tell you, somebody that really spoke up for me in the face of all of that.

And he was only briefly my editor for about three minutes, because it was just before I left to go and join smash hits, was Pierce Morgan. And he saw a lot of people pushing back on that kind of, what would have been celebrated in a man. He saw being, how do I put this? Not treated very well by more senior male executives. And he called me into his office.

I thought he was going to fire me. And he went, I see what's happening, and it stops now. And he stopped it. He was amazing. Yeah. And there was that sense, do you think, of she's pushy? This person walked up to me on his first day of working with me and shredded something I'd written and threw it in my face and said,

that's the worst thing I've ever read. Yeah. And I said, really? And he went, yeah, I was like 19, 20 at the time. And I said, and so. sorry, you are, and I just recounted who he was and where he'd just come from, the other newspaper that he'd just moved over from. And he went, yeah.

And I said, then I found that really hard to believe, because he hadn't come from particularly Highborough Place. And I suppose that in that moment, what I was supposed to do was what, I don't know, run to the toilet in tears? No, I spoke up for myself and I challenged him. And I really paid the price for that day in, day out, week in, week out. But I'm glad that I did. You were taking care of yourself.

and you were probably remembering. Or the bullying. Yeah. That actually now I have a voice and I'm going to use it. Well, do you know what? I just thought, for years, every Wednesday when I would get beaten up at school, because it was every Wednesday at the bus stop on the way to games, I would lie on the floor and look at this girl's ankles as she and her cronies hit me,

and she had quite large ankles. I remember them. And I just looked at this guy and I thought, I am not looking at your ankles. I've worked too hard to get here. Fuck you. and I might be 20 but I'll go down fighting and I did and actually I didn't go down I went up I went to a great job somewhere else where I didn't have that to deal with so but this and you know these are experiences that a lot of people will come up against in the workplace I'm not sort of

ringing my hands here going whoa poor me I've been bullied all my life I think everybody comes up against this and it's how you respond to it and I'm and I'm so quick to look for it in every work environment now with other young people, I just really feel very strongly that those abuses of powers need to be called out and I'm never afraid to do it. I think it's great to encourage young women as well particularly, you know, because there's a casual form of bullying. It's a contempt in the way you speak to someone. It's daily, it's chippy, it's, you know, and also, you know, like listen, I'm just in a very good place in my life now where I'm at an age where I'm at an age where I can speak up a bit and I don't care about the consequences.

I don't care if you don't hire me. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday, so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.