Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Kate Williams (Part Two)

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

This week we’re in the fabulously royal St James’s Park with the wonderful historian Kate Williams. Kate reacts to Emily’s controversial historical crush, she reveals what goes down in the historians WhatsApp chat and then explains why we have such an enduring love for The Tudors. We also try to find out who is Kate’s favourite person in history - but it’s a tough decision! You can follow Kate on Instagram @KatewilliamsmeYou can also listen to Queens, Kings and Dastardly Things - a brand new history podcast hosted by Kate and Robert Hartman - wherever you get your podcasts! Kate’s most recent book The Royal Palace: Secrets and Scandals is available now!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of my chat with the wonderful historian Kate Williams. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, get on it immediately, as I think you'll really love it. And I'd also be thrilled if you subscribe to us at Walking the Dog. Here's Kate and Ray Ray. Kate, I've got a confession to make, and I hope, I don't know how this is going to go down. I have a bit of a weird crush all my life. I've had a bit of a strange crush. Yes.

I have a portrait of this man. In my bedroom. Yes. I started painting him from a very young age. My parents would say, you can draw anything you want. I would paint him. I mean, I've got hundreds of paintings I found that I did of him. Henry the 8th is my man of choice.

No. Oh, no. You have a crush on Henry the 8th. Yeah. You are joking. Well, I mean, obviously he's ginger. I mean, I like that. You know, I like that.

That's one. Really? But you are a risk taker, Emily. You are a risk taker because, you know, let's have a look. I'm just talking about you have a good neck. That's definitely a get a bit of purchase on there. The axman could get a good old go, yes. Mary Queen of Scots's mother, Mary of Geese,

Henry VIII was interested in marrying her, and she said she didn't think she had the right type of neck because he'd already done a bit of chopping. So tell me why you love Henry the 8th, that pure male charisma. You know what? I like his drive it like me. approach to life. Do you know what I mean?

I just think. Take what you want. Get in there. Take what you want and get up. And I do sort of think with Henry V.Aidt. I know, look, he's not perfect. I know that. I mean, no man, no man, no one is.

We all have our faults. This is what I would say in his defence. He wasn't a commitment foe. At least he put a ring on it. Yes. Yes. Do you know what I mean? He didn't have situationships.

He did at least. at least marry these women before killing them. He had plenty of others that he had affairs with and had illegitimate children with. When Ambelin's sister decided that she was maybe going to move away from being a mistress, he was like, ooh, I think I need another lady now.

Who can I find? Oh, look at that lovely lady dancing over there. I haven't noticed her before. Her sister was just my type of lady. Maybe she'd work too. But I think, Emily, you'd be just Henry the 8th type. You would be just Henry the 8th. And I'm not saying how long, how long you'd last. You could only live for three years, but maybe it would be worth it?

He did like witty, fun ladies. I do see you. And which wife would you be? Dark hair. Did he like the dark hair? Oh, yeah. Anne Boleyn had dark hair and flashing eyes, and it blew his mind. She had a very French sense of star because she'd been at the French court.

So you would be perfect. Yeah, but you're picking on one of the ones that I'm afraid, as we know, he did away with. So you've always loved Henry the Eighth? I mean, not just like obsessed. So he's not a father figure, he's a lover. Oh, yeah. And do you want young Henry or old Henry? I dated once a man because he looked a bit like Henry the Eighth.

Did you? Yeah. So you'll be looking at young, jousting, fit Henry or older gouty leg Henry? So you're more, you're Katham Par? Yeah, I'm very Catholic. You're survived. Yeah. Because I don't like young Henry.

Because the point is everyone likes him. It's like going for Mick Jagger when he's a young man. There's too much competition out there. So we're taking old Mick. Get them when they're old. Get them when they're old. And hopefully grateful. Yeah, because Henry will be grateful to me.

So you're Catherine. Yeah. And you don't mind the gouty leg. He does think about executing Catherine Park. But the enemy is saying, look, she's talking about religion. And she says, oh, I was only trying to distract him from his gouty leg. So she escapes being, having a head chopped off. She's pretty clever.

Who? I reckon you could. If he said, Henry said, look, Emily, I'm going away. Would you mind going into the... tower for a while just while I'm away. You and Raymond go to the tower. I think you'd say no. Raymond does not go to the tower. I'm not going to town. Would I say no one puts Raymond in the tower? No one. And when Mary Queen of Scots was executed, she was all alone. You've got mentionitis with her. You're obsessed with her. I am obsessed with her. But you know what happened?

I'm going to tell, when she was executed under her skirts, her dog was there. Her dog had gone to the block with her and she was so loyal and I'm just saying that if Henry the 8th executed you Raymond would be under your great big cut two skirts no he wouldn't Kate that's the problem would you have gone off for the executioner oh of course he would have I mean my cats my cat's such a survivor my cats totally if my there's nowhere my cat was going to me go to the block with me why are we do we have this enduring fascination with the tudors because people do don't they it's the Roman empire in the tudors why do you think that is specifically with the Tudors.

Why do we love that period in history? I think the Tudors really is when you see so much of what creates our current lives now. I mean the break from Rome, the Church of England, the beginning of the strength of parliament, so much of, it's not just about these big characters, but so much of the 16th century is really where you see what is modern Britain beginning.

And that out of Henry's drawing, drama with Amberlin comes a break from Rome that changes the religious, the religious lives of everyone at the time and now everyone since. I mean, if it wasn't for that, this would still be a Catholic country. So everything is changed by the Tudors. And we do have these incredible characters. We do have these incredible, incredible characters. And I think what's fascinating about the Tudors is they are such a, they seem so concrete to us. But at the time, they really were very Arab East. They felt they could have been pushed off at any moment. Oh yeah, that's interesting what you say.

So Catherine of Valois was the widow of Henry V. And she had a young child. And she fell in love with a very handsome man, Owen Tudor, who was very handsome. And it was not well received because he was, he was from the court. He wasn't an aristocrat and she fell in love. He's seen as a little quite nouveau-reaf or something. Novo everything. I mean, it was really like the Queen's now saying, I think I'm just going to have a footman as my husband. And we wouldn't.

That would be fine now, but the time. And so this queen marries Owen Tudor and marries him, and it's seen as a huge scandal. And that's where the Tudor family, that's where the Tudor family comes from. So they aren't, it isn't the same as this great, legitimate line. And of course, they all comes from the Prince of the Tower being murdered and Richard the 3rd. So Henry the 7th really won his thrown through battle. And it was lucky that the Prince of the Tower were definitely, everyone thought, dead by then because otherwise they had the stronger claim. And so Henry the 8th is very insecure.

So it seems to us that they are the big dynasty, but they were very insecure. So that's what fascinates us, I think, is they sort of came from nowhere and then became the monarchs. And of course, so many were ginger, which is vital. Can I say something? If you were my friend, I am your friend. It's so kind. If you were my friend, I would just be texting and calling you all the time asking you information. I mean, how amazing. Imagine just wandering around like today, walking around we're in St James' part

with all this kind of history behind us. That's a fantasy friend, isn't it? Because you just know everything about that history. Well, lots of my friends are historians, so they all know it too. So we have grouped, group, group, group, fact discussions. I think that's quite selfish. Because you should spread yourself out.

Spread the love. You should. I've got friends who say, friends who are maths teachers just have their WhatsApp group with like solving maths puzzles. and our historians' WhatsApp groups often quite like that. Do you? What's the sort of thing you might say in the historian WhatsApp group?

Conversations about sources, conversations about people's motivations are, yeah, the local, all kinds of, the collected WhatsApps that I put them in my, put them in my collected historical WhatsApp. So do you find yourself being used by people who know you as essentially a human Wikipedia? Be honest. I would love that. No, I love being a human fact robot. I love that.

And I think I might get people to use him more as that. I love that. I love a human fact robot. I think I have come up with too many thoughts and fans sometimes. I think people like you should be banned from pub quiz if you don't mind me saying. It's not fair. I have been in trouble for that in the past. Why?

I did go to a quiz and someone said to the quiz master, what's she doing here? Did they recognise you? Yeah. I said I've seen her on like on TV, I've seen her on, I think they'd see me on something, either House of Games or... Well, you were on the wheel as well. On the wheel, house of games. I've one masterminds, I have one point nurse and I think they said, what is she doing? What's she doing here?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My heart would sink, if I saw you walk into the pub, I'd say, oh, for fuck's sake. But obviously there's loads of things I don't know about sport, but yeah, so history quiz. Yeah. Yeah. History quiz. I have been spotted before.

We're in, obviously, this quite royal part of London. And you've recently written a book, can I say a beautiful book, which is called? The Royal Palace is Secrets and Scandals, and it's all about all the different royal palaces and across the country. It was impossible to cut them down. We have so many. There were so many I had to leave out. But we have Buckingham. We've got the Big Cahuna.

We've got Buckingham Palace. We've got St. James's Palace. Lots of Scotland and lots in Wales. And a couple that are no longer here. So Whitehall Palace, which was St. James Park was a big part of Whitehall Palace, that's gone. And there's only a few remnants of that left, which most of them we can't see. And it was burnt down in 1698 when a poor maid left a candle burning by some sheets. And Greenwich Palace, which Charles II pulled down to try and rebuild and they never got round to it.

Yeah. That's annoying. But it's interesting because I notice one theme throughout your work and books you've very, You focused on people like Josephine Bonaparte and Emma Hamilton, as you say. So all these paramours of great men, it's almost like the untold stories through those women. And I'm interested as well, I'm always interested when you talk about, there's some parallels with that in royal history as well. And even up to today where you think women have had to fight a little bit more to be heard, really.

Yes, absolutely. You know, from chopping off Ambulin's heads to putting women aside, I mean, the life of a woman in the royal family whether it is a tough one. Do you think it still is? Yes, I think it still is. I think it still is. And I think that it's... You'll judge more harshly than the men, I think. It will never be equal because we have a situation in which women are always judged on how they look and how they look and how they appear in which men are not. And that's triply the case when you're a royal because your whole job now is. to be symbolic. So your whole job is to be symbolic. So you are, it is all about the appearance. And so we have a consequence that we have with Princess Diana, her suffering and the misery

that she had. She was behind the wall. She had the most glamorous life. Everyone, everyone fell in love with her on the royal wedding. It was this fantasy, even the Archbishop of Canterbury said it was a fairy tale. But to her, it was the absolute opposite. And it was a cage and it was suffering. Because the image that you had to keep up was impossible, even without the fact. that she had no support from her husband. Yeah. You know, the royal family is a institution that I think is not going anywhere anytime soon,

but it is punishing for those who marry into it, I think. There's no escaping that it's a world that you have to live a life that isn't anyone that anyone, most of us wouldn't want to live. I mean, the Queen's, Queen Elizabeth Seconds Governor said to her that royals are only private in the womb, and that was in the 1930s.

And that was in the 1930s and we have no privacy now. And we only have to look at the Meghan Markle marrying into the royal family and how that was met with these horrified outpourings about the most ridiculous things that she closed her own car door or worn black nail varnish and all the hysteria over their cottage, Frogmore. When every other royal property lived in by all kinds of royals had millions and millions spent on it over the years, to the Crown Estates, but 2.4 million on Frogmore to renovate it from a cottage that

in which lots of people who worked at the estate stayed into a house was seen as some kind of national horror and scandal, even though at the same year someone spent a, there was a million spent on a drive and a million spent on a boiler near more or less. But it was that became this giant hysteria and it was really inescapable that this was because Megan was a woman of colour marrying into the royal family. And it was simply that there's no way that it seemed that a royal family, which is representing a multicultural country indeed and even more multicultural Commonwealth, the hysteria was saying over and over again, we can't have a person of colour marrying to the world

family, which is really horrific. So obviously, you know, people say, why was, you know, Meghan Markle so attacked? And of course there was misogyny, of course it was anti-Americanism, but it was racism, pure and simple. And if she'd been a white woman, it wouldn't have been a white woman. wouldn't have happened. And it's just, and it's still, I think historians on the future

will look back on that, the moment in which she married into the royal family and what that said about Britain and the world and it's not a pretty picture. Because it's interesting, I've always viewed when I was growing up

and I looked at people who talked about history, particularly on TV and stuff like that. And it was always an older man, if I'm honest. Do you know what I mean? It was a particular type of man. Really interesting, brilliant men, but that was all it was really.

And so I can see that that would have been, it feels like it has opened up much more and that people like you have voices. It has opened up, but there is, I think there's a long way to go. I mean, it still is a long way to go of the expansion of women's voices, of people of colours voices, of LGBT voices. I think there's a long way to go

in terms of the expansion of voices because, as you say, there is still this association of authority with a certain type of person. Women are allowed to do certain small histories, but if you want to do a big, capacious history, then that is not often a job given to a man. And it's not just history,

the whole question of women and women's authority is one that we're always working on in society, and it starts on the top, I think. You know, I always wonder on Wikipedia, you know, we have a Wikipedia change where, you know, when you look up someone, that they might say, mother first, because it's always father than mother, isn't it?

It's always, you know, well, who's your father and who's your mother? And will we ever have a swap over that we could swap that round and put the mother first? Because, you know, the mother's the only one you're sure of. The Anglo-Saxons, they used to prefer their sister's son often, because that was the only one you were sure of. You were absolutely sure that your genes were in your sister's son. Oh, yeah. Couldn't be sure about the other side. I think about poor old Anne Boleyn, if she was accused of, if she was accused of adultery,

I just wish she just actually had and then she would have hopefully had a son there was clearly something about her and Henry's I mean Henry had a lot of bad luck with having children and there's lots of arguments so he had a condition but there's clearly something about her and Henry's blood groups that didn't match one child and then she keeps failing to have a live pregnancy, a live child

so she just maybe had an affair perhaps not with her brother that's going a bit far but with one of the men she was accused of adultery with maybe she could have got pregnant and saved her skin It's interesting as well that he obviously, how he would have just kept assuming it was the woman's fault rather than accepting that perhaps he was the issue. Well, this is why it's good you're going to be Catherine Parr, Emily,

because he's given up by then. He's given up on the charm... Oh, I don't have to go through trial. You don't have to go through trial. Also, you don't have to go through the... I think that's the easier part. It's the part is the whole court watching you, and him being obsessed with it.

So Whitehall Palace, which is now gone, was very near here. initially St James's Park was Henry the Eighth's hunting ground that's what he wanted it for near Whitehall Palace Are we in Henry the 8th hunting ground Basically we are get on your horse Emily and give him away I want to be hunted I'm here exactly spear me Where are you? So yes we are sitting in Henry the 8th hunting ground here

And this is exactly where Henry 8th would go hunting So Whitehall Palace was Thomas Walsy's palace And Henry doesn't like a anyone having a bigger palace in him. But that's the trouble Thomas Rosley got it wrong. He shouldn't have never outshine the master. It's rule one of Mackey Bellas. Pallises have to be the, you know, the chief always has to have to be the biggest palace, you know. So he stole his house, basically. He stole his house and then he, and then he renovated it into being his love nest with Amberlin. So there's where I often find this when you get together with someone

knew you want to get a house and do all the DIY together. So Henry and Anne were king and queen of DIY doing it Whitehall Palace and she made all these lovely queens with. rooms, the Queen's bedrooms, but she only had pretty much three years. And then the rooms actually weren't finished by the time she was executed. So Jane Seymour then got her rooms, who had been her lady and waiting. Oh, do you know, that just puts the tin lid on it. You didn't even get to see your rooms finished. So exactly, that's what I thought. Poor old ambulance. She didn't even get to see her bedroom decorated. I mean, we're all, we all, we all know what it's like to be in the midst of an endless DIY project that never gets finished or even get the reveal.

She doesn't even get the reveal. You know, changing rooms could have done it. faster to the changing rooms could have come in, swapped it over, put in some features, you know, some water features and but she never got to sit. And in the end, Jane Seymour got her rooms and Jane Seymour also got married in her rooms. So that was, in the rooms that Amber then had decorated, Jane Seymour got them and that was pretty brutal, wasn't it? What's brilliant about sitting in St James's part with Kate Williams is everything. But what is specifically the thing is there's a man eating his lunch and I could see him absolutely rat listening to her because he's very much.

basically getting a free podcast. He's had a free guide. He can't believe his luck. He's having all this historical information for free, for his lunchtime. You'd have to pay this woman hundreds of pounds for this information. They're getting it free these people. We need to do it. We need to go on tour and do the O2.

There was a man listening wrapped to you talking about history there, as if it was a podcast. But soon, he will be able to listen to your podcast because you've just launched. We are so excited. Queens, Kings and Dastly Things. me and Robert Hardman, and we talk through scandals, murders, royal shocking behaviour. So we do have some well-behaved royals, but the majority are not. I love the contrast that royalty, we are always sold. It is this image of magnificence and stability and splendour and purity.

But behind closed doors, it's often total chaos. You'll be talking different topics every week. different periods of history. So we have 10 episodes. We're talking about all kinds of history. We've got Mary Queen of Scots. You won't be surprised. You've got Amber Lynn.

Are you even that Mary Queen of Scots? We haven't done what? Does your partner ever say when you're on a holiday or something? Oh, Mary Queen of Scots, this, Mary Queen of Scots, this, Mary Queen of Scots, that. But that's the thing. You need to be obsessed with these people, don't you? I am obsessed with them. I am obsessed to them.

I jeal about them. They're coming towards me in a dream. Yes, in the dream, they're sort of coming towards me. I did once have a, I was dreaming that I was being cuddled by Charles II. And I woke up and my weighted blanket had got on my head. So I just was like, I was smothering myself and I thought it was Charles II. He'd landed on me. Sorry, Kate, you are the only person alive who has woken off and said,

I dreamt I was being cuddled by Charles. I bet you've had dreams about Henry VIII, Emily. I bet you have. Well, I can't wait to hear it. Thank you. And I think everyone should listen to it. I wanted to ask you, do you think, because I always really like historians when I meet them. I don't know why that is.

That's wonderful to hear. Why do you think that is? I had Tom Holland on this podcast. Oh, that's great. I feel there's a good energy, I think historians have. I mean, I know you can't generalise, but I'm attracted to the personality of people that are interested in past. What I hadn't expected, I always wanted to write, I always wanted to be a historian, what I hadn't expected was the wonderful community that I would gain. So many friends, so many

true, great friends. And it's interesting, you know, when you tell someone that you're a historian, a lot of people say, oh, you must hate X or you must hate X. And they love the idea of, you know, handbags at dawn, especially between women, they love the idea that me and Lucy Worsley went bashing each other over there. And we're not. I'm such good friends. I really have value the community of historians. It's been so important to me in good times and bad times and sometimes it's hard sometimes

working in a world in which your you know the judgment sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and and so it's so wonderful to have that support so that to me it wasn't anything I expected and that's been an incredible added bonus so I think I mean I think I am biased

historians are wonderful people and I also think that I spend all day in my cave typing away in my cave writing away, sometimes by hand, I write sometimes by hand, sometimes by typing, I'm writing away my cave. So when I meet someone who wants to ask me questions and wants to know about history, I'm like at one of those click, those stick on bricks, I'm holding onto you.

I've got more facts. So it's just, it's just so wonderful when you meet someone like you. Do you love history? It does happen. And what, how are they? It does happen. I mean, it's quite nice kind of fame, as it were, because people who know you know you through talking about history.

So, no, it's really one time people recognise me because they always want to ask you about this historical question or that historical question and I love it. So no, you know, it just... Even if you're in sort of Sainsbury's or something and you've got a trolley full and you're buying Louvre. What I find most difficult is when someone, and they say, oh, we need to speak to you

and you're just about to get off the train. I just wanted to ask you this question and you're like, but this is such a great question we could have been doing this for two hours and I've got to get off the train now so I can't tell you my answer. I like the idea of you getting off the train in something, who murdered you?

at the princesses in the tower. And then the door's closing. And listen to the podcast, yeah. So I love it when people come up to you and they say, I love history or I love this. And they've all got so many interesting viewpoints because I think that's the thing about history. It is wonderful, but it is deeply frustrating

because there are things we'll never know. We'll never really know. You know, many historians think that Ambelin had her eyes on the prize. She was aiming from Henry for the beginning. I don't think so. I think that she had very little choice, but to be in a relationship with him

and he was pushing her so hard. I don't think she was eyes on the prize ambitious, I don't think at all. I think she was judging being a mistress. She wanted to actually make a marriage for herself. And slightly Kardashian parents, maybe? Kardashian, they totally. I mean, I'm not, yeah, Thomas Billion is like,

there was a bit of mummerger stuff. Thomas, Thomas Billing is like, here you go, Henry, have my daughter, now give me money. So we all disagree, and that's because we will never really know what the motivations of Amberlin are because we don't have these records.

We've got a million people saying at the time and since what they think they are. So that is the frustrating part of history. What I find particularly frustrating is even when you do have their records, they don't always tell you what you'll want to know. You know, Emma Hamilton, for example, you don't always tell you what you want to know,

even though she was a capacious and voluminous writer. And she, I'm just obsessed with this scene. She went to see Marie Antoinette when Marie Antoinette was in prison. And it was before Marianne Antoinette was put in very severe prison. It was before she tried to make that failed attempt to escape. So she's under house arrest. So she is being treated still as a queen, but she is under house arrest.

Emma Hamilton goes to see her. And they have a private meeting. And Emma Hamilton writes pages about other parts of the journey. She doesn't tell us what she and Mary Antoinette talk about. She's one of the last people to see Marianne Twanette before she was executed. but what does the Queen say? What does the Queen look like? She doesn't tell us.

And it's so funny because I wrote this in my book and all of my editors, my American editor, my British editor, my editor, my editors in some other countries, they're like, you need to give us more. What does she say? I was like, I don't know. That is a frustrating thing that our historical subjects, even if they talk to us, don't tell us what we want to know.

So I would love in my time machine to go back and ask a lot of them some really important questions. Do you know what? I have found it so fascinating chatting to you and I feel like I would never run out of questions to ask you quite honestly I've got a question to ask you oh come on where would you I think I'm in the answer I've got my time machine it's covered in pipe cleaners it's covered in cling film it's covered in bits of foil where do you want to go where we're going to set the dial on top

to I mean I've already established that I've got a bit of a crush on Henry Gage Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do. That's your in-flight music. I like that it's a slight ringtone version. There's a reason why I'm not a singer. But where I want to go specifically, and where I would want to go, I think, in any historical figure's life, which sounds a bit weird, is their final moments.

Because I think then you'd get the. truth out of them. That's interesting. I know this is a bit weird, a bit of an ambulance chase set. There are certain deathbeds I'd like to be on because I think that's when people will tell you the absolute truth about their lives. Especially in the past when they really had no opiates

so. Right. They weren't medicated in any way. So I think, rather than join them... Really? Yeah. I just think... That is fascinating. I think that's where you'd get all the stuff. So you could go and ask certain people. There'd be questions that you'd want to ask, Henry the 8th.

So, I mean, I feel this is a TV. I think this is a TV series. I think that's where the truth flies. That is, people are often only ever honest at those, in those last moments. Because they've got nothing to lose. Yes. Who would you go to? Henry V.Osset.

I'd go to various. I'd go to Lee Halvia Oswald. Why not? I want to know. I love that. Deathbed confessions. I mean, it's a bit of a depressing time machine. You're all going back seeing amazing things.

I'm just hanging around deathbeds. But I'm happy with that because I'll find out the truth. When I come back, the secrets I'll have. You'll say Emma Hamilton, what did you say to Mary Antoinette? Henry VIII, who was your favourite? And why did you do it? Did you really say, kiss me hardy, because you might want to know. I think people have got it wrong.

And people are making all sorts of them. You are right. Yeah, we're not going to die. All the answers we want to know. Right, Kate Williams, let's take you back through St James's Park. I bet you're a really lovely friend, Kay. Are you a good friend? Do you think?

What do you think your friends would say they like about you? That's a good question. What do you think? That's a good question. It's hard to, yes, I don't know. I bet you're quite a good listener. Yeah, I try to be. Yeah.

But what do you think your friends say about you? People say you're fun and vibrant and exciting. I hope they would feel always empathetic. Yeah, yeah. I hope so. Of course you are. I think you would be there. No, you are.

Yeah, you are. You see very deep. But I've noticed about you and I like that you're very generous because it's an interesting thing. We're interviewing you because when I say something nice about you, you immediately throw it back to me. Don't you? That's because you're... Yes, I... How do you feel about compliments?

No, you're right. I mean, no, you're right. It's totally true. It's totally true. No, you're right. Do you like compliments? Do they make you awkward? Yes.

I think it's imposter syndrome. I think you're totally right. I think it's, I think it's imposter syndrome. Yeah, it's still there. Maybe that's a nice thing, Kate. Maybe that's why you're lovely, because you're not arrogant, you know. You're really not. And I think I look at how impressive what you've done that, just how, you know, your education, but also probably, if I'm honest, getting into that world at a time when it was a little bit harder for women. Let's be honest. Yeah, yeah, it was. Do you know what I mean? And you've opened doors. Some of the stuff that people said to me. Yeah, exactly.

I can imagine. And you've opened doors for other women, and that's an incredible legacy. Oh, thank you. And is you pleased about that? Yeah, absolutely. No, I hope I have. That's what I can say on my deathbed. If that's what I've done, then I think it's what I hope to do.

So that's a great thing to say. If I could say that on my deathbed, you know, I've opened doors for others. Then that would be, that's enough. I can die happy. Okay, I should say, you'll notice we've lost, right? Oh, Raymond's made a friend. Raymond! Raymond!

Raymond! I don't want to insult you, but I don't know if it's just because of you. I think it might be cupboard love here. Come on, Raymond! Oh, Kate, this is so embarrassing. I've got a stick. Raymond?

Hey, Raymond, look. Raymond! No, Raymond! I'm so sorry. I do apologise. It's all right. It's all right. We've got cats.

Oh, good. That was so embarrassing, Kate. There was a lovely family there. Oh, no, my cat. You know what he did? He went round. and stole a chicken from the next door neighbour. He broke into their house and stole the chicken.

I thought cats only did that in cartoons. No, he did it. He went, well, I didn't know. And they said, yes, we saw your cat the other day. He came in, I said, I'm so sorry. He came in and stole a chicken off the kitchen side. So he's very naughty. So I know what it's like to happen.

The Raymond was very well behaved. My cat also, he stole the builder's ham sandwich from his prep bag. The builder had a prep bag by the door with a ham sandwich in, and the cat took it out and stole it. So I'm all kinds of food stealing. My pets are worse. Raymond's so good. Kate, who's your favourite person in the whole of history?

Well, you know, I do like Mary Queen of Scott. I do like, let's find another one as well. You know what? I do like Ada Loveless. I think she's an incredible figure, an incredible figure of women in science and how science and imagination combines. And I just, I just, I love.

her and I love her life. I think she's an incredible figure. So we're getting to Horse Guards Parade, which I feel is a very fitting area to say our farewells to you, suitably royal and filled with history. And I've absolutely loved chatting to you. I've been so grateful to talk to you. Well, you're such a fascinating woman. We knew that. And you're a very knowledgeable woman, we knew that. But you're also a very lovely woman, I think. Oh, thank you. You have a lovely energy. Thank you. Well, it's an incredible privilege to talk to you and play with Raymond. I love the podcast. You really see deep. You are, you really see deep. I love it.

Will you say goodbye to Raymond? Can you come over and meet your cat? Yes. Raymond, do you want to come and meet Buddy in summer? Yes, you would. I love you. Bye-bye, Raymond. I love you. I just love his eyes. He's so gorgeous. Bye, Kate. Bye. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on walking the dog wherever you get your podcasts.