Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Katy Wix

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

This week Emily and Ray took Katy Wix for a walk in Peckham. They discuss Katy’s book, Delicacy, her childhood in Wales and the forthcoming series of Stath Lets Flats. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, should we go down there? Looks really sweet. This little grove. Do you know it looks very us, Katie? Doesn't it? Right, it looks very us. It does because it's not too boisterous. It looks like the front cover of a self-help book. This week on Walking the Dog, I took Ray for a stroll in Peckham with actor, writer and comedian Katie Wicks.

Katie grew up with Labrador so I didn't know what she'd make of my strange Ewat Raymond, but it turned out to be a match made in heaven. I was so excited to meet Katie, as I've been a fan of us for years. But I was especially excited to chat to her about the forthcoming series of Stathlet's Flats, in which she plays the utterly hilarious Carol. It's honestly the best depiction of a nightmare work colleague you'll ever see. We also chatted about Katie's wonderful book, Delicacy, which I really urge you to read. It's such an honest and just beautifully written memoir, which touches on a lot of the stuff we talked about.

Her childhood in Wales, her ongoing journey really towards self-acceptance. And it also documents the multiple losses she went through not long ago and the legacy that's left. And just like Katie, it's sensitive and thoughtful, but it's also really funny because Katie just has funny bones. She's incapable of not being hilarious. As you've probably worked out, I love this woman and so did Ray. We're officially friends now, whether she likes it or not. Please do check out series three of stafflets flats later this month on Channel 4 and also do read delicacy. You won't regret it.

I really hope you enjoy our chat. shut up now. Here's Katie and Raymond. Where are you going to go by the way, Paige? Oh yes. So Peck and Rye is the nice park area and it's kind of straight up there. Lovely. For, I don't know, about six minutes or something. So I live really far up there but I'm in a hotel because my boiler broke. So I've had no heat of our hot water.

So I've had to stay in a hotel in Greenwich for two nights. And it happened on, I can't remember what night it happened anyway, but it was quite late. And I thought, I'll sub this, I can't, I'm not going to live to sleep in this temperature. So the only hotel I could find was basically like within the O2 arena. So I'm staying in a really weird hotel in Greenwich. It's like you're back into the hotel. It's like I've got a limber up for take that at like 5am every day or something. Yeah, it's just up here.

It might be a longer walk than I... Oh, no worry. ...than I have in my head. Well, I was going to put Raymond down, but... He's such a slow walk, Casey. I might wait until we get him to the park, because he takes so long. He treats walking like he's sort of on Oxford Street,

looking at clothes. He does have a very regal vibe. Oh, look, this is a proper dog. He's like a small emperor that doesn't want to be... doesn't want to exert himself. That's the vibe I get off Raymond. We always have... Black Labrador's growing up. Yeah, so I'm very much a dog, a dog person. But sadly, it's just,

it's not very practical for me to have one in London, you know, when it's like, there's a doggy. Oh, oh. Yeah, tell me, tell me the origin of Raymond. So the story of Raymond, I like him, Katie. You know, those dogs that look a bit like they could be in a white snake or something, like heavy metal hair. Yeah, I mean, that's just like the Demetrius dog. Just like that. This is, oh yeah, Jamie Dimitri, who's been on this podcast, who's your Stathlet's Fats colleague? We've just finished series three and, oh my God, it's the best, yeah.

It's, I mean, I'm kind of obsessed with it. This is embarrassing. I've never been so obsessed with anything I've been involved with, like a fan. I'm such an Uber fan. It's such a relief to being something you actually find funny. It's been many times I've just taken the money and, you know, made huge artistic compromises. So it's so good. Well, I want to talk loads about that. But, well, I'm going to introduce it formally, but I might wait until we get into the grass.

So it doesn't sound like I'm walking you, Alan Partridge style on the motorway. Like, where are they? We've come to the M25 today to walk around. We're wearing driving gloves as we walk on the dual carriageway. Cross the road. The way my mum used to speak to the dogs, it's so funny. Because I do it with my brother's dogs. He has the same dogs now as we had when we were little. So he's tried to carry on the legacy.

One of them just died, actually. And the other one you can imagine is in like deep mourning, and it's awful to see animals. But also, so I should say this, but also I... When there was morning going on in the house, the dogs were so sensitive to it. They were unbelievable. The amount of times a night with my brother's dogs,

I didn't really have a particularly special, bond with them but the amount of times they would just come and check on me if I was crying or they clamber up on me at bed at night on bed they were really sensitive to it particularly one of them they really are you know I think they really pick up on moods don't they in oceans she looks very cool like a plat see-through mat and your own music just blasting out I love the fact it's like being in Brooklyn for God's sake and I like the bikes have become cool even I'm too frightened to ride them. Oh yeah, I'm shit at riding bikes.

I can't ride it really. No, I can't really. I spent years lying. Even with friends as an adult, Katie. I thought you're going to say even with stabilises. Let's walk with Katie. So this was the main park I'd come to during lockdown when we were allowed our hour out

because I don't have a garden sadly. And it's peckham ride. Yeah, but it got, you can imagine it. You know, it was so densely populated that it didn't really feel like you were in an absolute. space and you couldn't really social distance very easily. Oh, look at Raymond in action.

Good to see his full flow. You say in action, Katie. He looks like a centipede, doesn't he? He does have like... His bum looks like his front a little bit, which I like as well. So I'm going to formally introduce you. Yes. I'm so thrilled.

I'm in Peckham. And I'm with the very wonderful Katie Wicks, and I'm introducing her to my dog, Raymond. What do you think so far? Hi, Raymond. Yeah, I mean, I just love that we have the same sort of hair. My name, Raymond. Do you talk me through your history with dogs then?

You don't have a dog. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, I'd love to, but it's just a bit impractical. It's so many things, I think. It's like, you know, living in a flat, not having outdoor space, being self-employed, it feels like you can't make a plan sort of week to week. Because, you know, everything just, you know, I could suddenly get an email saying, you have to go to such and such on certain days. So that, I don't know, I just, I feel like it would make me too anxious to have one.

Yeah. As much as I'd love one, as much as it would calm me down. But I grew up with dogs. we always had dogs. Like some of my earliest memories are the dogs we had. And... Yeah, always black Labrador's.

And there was one in particular. We had four, I think, because there's two that died and then another one. And there was really... There was two Black Labrador's called Hattie. Hattie was amazing. She had such an extraordinary temperament.

I've never known a dog like it. And I don't know whether she just kind of imbued the energy of the females and the family. She was very gentle, very intelligent, really sort of knew what was going on, and just very sort of human-like. And she was kind of very, yeah, just a really, she never barked, like never, ever once heard her bark.

It was really surprising. And then we adopted, I mean, this is in a way, a whole kind of nature versus nurture debate because we adopted another dog, which had been abandoned in a quarry. and this dog just never got over it. It was, you know, even after sort of 10 years of being in this loving family and, you know, being given all the security,

it just never, ever really could trust or its nervous system just never recovered. I think from just like the noises of the quarry. Yeah. So it was quite interesting to see this played out, how trauma, you know. Yeah. What plays to you're alive in these two dogs? And then one of my siblings has also now two black Labrador's. And, yeah, as I was saying, which one of them just died.

And to see the other one in full morning is heartbreaking. Do you think they really, can you tell that they sense? Yeah, I mean, I don't see them every day. But it's really clear that the other dog is very confused why there's this absence and thrown. and kind of making this pining noise on the spot where the other dog used to sleep. Oh, wow, quite a sort of posh looking dog, like an aristocratic-looking dog has come over. What are you saying about Ray, Katie? You're saying that dog is slowing it?

Race is not moving. It's so funny. Ray does a weird thing. He sort of freezes. I don't know whether it's social anxiety. Yeah, I really relate. This other dog's so confident. And it's got like a pink ribbon around its middle.

So it looks like a sort of, like a gift from Harrods or something, isn't it? It's really fluffed up. It's kind of like a spitz. It's that Pomeranian colour, I think. It's a spitz or something. It's the thing I only know about Labrador's because, let's say, the dog we ever had. And now it's like continued as a tradition. I mean, it's very much like, they're all packed dogs, aren't they?

I meant my main memory is that the dog just always had to be where someone was, always in on the action. So my mum was really into dog training. What was she called that woman that everyone was the sort of bossy woman? Barbra Woodhouse? Yeah, yeah. I remember her sort of talking

about her and she got really, she did a pretty good job that these dogs were pretty I think if anything I were a little too obedient it kind of worried me that they've been sort of brutalised into behaviour. So you grew up with your Labrador's and your family and this was in Wales.

Yeah, it was just like a sort of village outside of, just half an outside of Cardiff, I guess. Tell me about your mum and your dad. Well, they met in the 70s, I guess. They went to drum school in Birmingham. And my dad was like from, you know, like a really poor area. like sort of near Swansea and mum was a bit more sort of middle class so they I think even like my mum's parents didn't want didn't like approve of their relationship and they sort of ran off and got married in secret and they acted for a bit they were both really funny and I never really

got to see them act but like I think they would have really made you know amazing actors didn't they act okay so they had because they had kids and yeah they moved back to home back home to carloff and that to get normal jobs and how was that dream over yeah um so it's not like someone asked me the day whether uh when i said they were actors someone had like i mean they were actors for you know a couple of years or whatever but yeah someone asked me if they sort of help me and it was like laughable it wasn't that kind of thing wasn't like you know the red grains dynasty like no definitely not you know we weren't sort of wealthy they didn't have like connections or anything they they went sort of backstage and sort of my dad worked backstage

in a theatre then for the rest of his life and my mum like worked started a dance company that's still going um so they were they were really my whole family were all creative and and uh you know artistic so in some ways they were they were really understanding when and I sort of said, look, I want to, you know, write and perform and stuff. I think they put me off only because they knew how hard it was. And I think maybe they expected me to fail. Which is no reflection of, you know, what they thought of me, but I think they just thought it's really tough.

So when I didn't, they were kind of, particularly my mum was, you know, was living vicariously a little through my success, which is fine, but never in a way that felt, you know, problematic. So yeah, they And they were very much, you know, still in love And together till the end In fact, my dad went first And I think my mum

Got her cancer diagnosis Nine days after Dad died Which was just hell, obviously But I think that she He had dementia and she looked after him for so long But she made herself ill So really it was kind of the price of love that

finished her off in many ways she it was really difficult because we could sort of see that he was struggling but she I think she was kind of keeping it from people because she didn't want to put him in a home I think because it can be I think people go downhill quite quickly sometimes which isn't a criticism

of those places but I think it's just yeah it's just what happens isn't it and I think it's almost the lack of responsibility or stimulus or having to sort of attempt to be normal. But in the end, you know, social services had to get involved. And they just sort of said, you know, Dad had nearly set fire to the house again. Mum was starting to get ill. She could barely move.

So it was just a disaster, really. And this was literally only a couple of years ago, really, wasn't it? Yeah, so I've had like three deaths, three major deaths in like three years, pretty much, starting in 2017. So yeah, it just went bang, bang, bang. So yeah, it is still quite recent with them all. But yeah, like I think I've... I'm sort of surprised how functional I am, even though it's only been sort of two and a half years since the last one.

It changes you forever, doesn't it? Yeah, I think it's... Just dealing with one death would be bad enough, but I think that's... That was the most difficult aspect, I think. I felt like my brain just couldn't take it in. It was too much too soon. Oh, look at this, a sausage dog.

And I think, and also with my best friend, that was the first death. It was the suddenness of it. And so it was really the shock. I had to deal with the shock before I even got to the grief, I'd say. That was about six months of dealing with that. And I've never really understood, shock in that like almost like a medical sense before where you you your brain cannot you simply can't function it's like you've been completely short-circuited and that was very

definitely in the learning phase I don't worry my dogs never made it out of the learning phase which is why he's on the lead never made it out and that I'd never really experienced that before because with my parents there was at least some preparation but even with preparation and it's still incredibly shocking, profoundly surreal experience that someone was living and then they weren't. But yeah, with my friend it was very, it was really violent. And what happened? And that was, yeah, I don't even know.

There's some days I'm not even know who I'm grieving and at what pace. And in some ways I've had to shut what happened to my friend away quite quickly because suddenly I had to be a carer. So I don't know. think you're you've still got you've still got sort of things to deal with that you haven't. I felt I feel like grief needs space and it needs time. Yeah. And when you lose a lot of people as you did in one go like that, you're robbed of time and that can be quite difficult because it interrupts the natural process. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So that is really important that

your friends and people you work with and people who care about you, they sort of know that, you know, it's going to be a while. Yeah. And that's okay. It doesn't mean you won't be fine on a day-to-day level. But the thing I found hard was sometimes people would say, what's wrong? Yeah. And I sort of think, because I'd burst into tears at the slightest thing.

And I just learned to accept that after a while. I thought, oh no, I just cry a lot now, and I feel very deeply. Yeah, I think there's crying I recognise as grief crying now, which I never really sort of had before. And it's a completely different type of crying, where I'd almost have to wait till everyone had gone out because the noises I would make was so intense, and it comes right from the belly.

I mean, I guess it's like wailing, and I did plenty of wailing. But, you know, I'd kind of do it into pillows. I remember reading an article about a guy, He used to drive somewhere in his car on his own so he could properly wail. It was sort of half an hour. And I think I did that once in a hotel room, but even then I was trying to mute. You know, I was trying to keep the sound down. But I would always feel better after the whale.

It's, yeah, it's so sort of such an innate noise. But also I think it still manifests itself in quite weird ways, I think. that's the thing I wish I'd known that there's this whole menu of stuff to choose from which is not just sort of feeling sad or missing the person all the physical symptoms I had

to do with stress and grief anxiety sometimes it was more like a panic attack than anything or being obsessed with something else to try and distract myself and also I'm still not good with silences and I used to be like a really good meditator and was really into it.

And now I'm like, God, it's a real emotional privilege to be able to meditate. I'm not ready yet because I can't face that much reflection all at once. Yes. So I'm always sort of filling the day with noise and I'm still doing that and that's definitely a hangover.

Yeah. From some of the images I have in my head like flashbacks. I know it's tough though because people are so brilliant and I think people are luckily understanding more and more, you know, about loss. And I certainly, I wanted to, I want to talk a bit more about your childhood as well

because I've just read your absolutely brilliant book. Oh, thank you very much. I really urge people to read it because, thank you. It's so very hard. I love I tried it. I mean, it's the most I've ever worked on anything in my life. It really killed me. I feel like I have a breakdown writing that.

Oh, my God. very hard. The last time I heard someone say that was when someone congratulated Juergen Klinsman for being nice about the England team doing the lot and he went thank you I tried very hard so that delicacy is essentially it's really interesting because you use the theme of cake within it in a sort of Proustian way I'm going to say yeah no totally I mean I've never finished it but I've read after I read the first book But, yeah, the cake is this kind of, it's a sort of scaffolding really. And very quickly, I just, you know, I just, oh, should you go down there?

It looks really sweet, this little grove. Do you know, it looks very us, Katie. Doesn't it? You're right, it looks very us. It does, because it's not too boisterous. No, it looks like the front cover of a self-help book. About your path to loss or something. The road less travel, until these two.

cackling extroverts turned up. Yeah, I had all these kind of moments, stories I wanted to write about, and I didn't know how to collect them all together. I knew I didn't want it to be the normal kind of memoir, and really it has nothing to do with TV or anything. That's like deliberately left out, because I just thought that was kind of the least interesting thing to me. And also really quickly, I realised I had total creative freedom,

and I wanted to try and, you know, write something that was a little more poetic and thoughtful, which I've wanted to do for so long, but I haven't really had the confidence to say, this is me, this is what I want to like. Because you don't always get an opportunity to do that if you're trying to just, you know, get a TV script made or whatever, which is, it's just a different, you know, approach to writing. One's not better than the other, but I wanted to, like prose allowed me to, to, yeah, just go into sort of into a deep kind of reflection about it all. And, yeah, Kate was this emerged as a kind of theme.

And I sort of worried it was a bit twee, and perhaps it's like almost misleading that you don't think the book will have the darkness that it has. But then it sort of became like almost writing against the kind of sweetness of cake. I wanted it to very quickly be about how I kind of hate it. cake is a kind of is a sort of ultra-fem slightly patronising like fluffy object

that always seem to be there when actually there was something really painful happening and you know I know this sounds ridiculous I was watching Marriott at first sight the other day the UK one yeah I've only watched the Australian one which I absolutely fucking love the Australians deliver more on the bad behaviour but you know what was interesting they had

the boys had a dinner party and then girls did and it really struck me Katie that the men had these platters with meat and cheese on it and the women had cupcakes and glasses of pink champagne and I thought awful I like the platters I don't want to eat cake and champagne because I'll throw up and be lightheaded I'd like meat yeah I'd like the cheese yeah it reminds me of um actually I think this was in the book at one point and I it took it out because there was no obvious place for it but I've um my sort of my group of two, three really close female friends, they're quite sort of unconventional. They're quite, I suppose they're quite alpha women in some ways and one of them is actually

non-binary. So, but whenever we're in a group on our own and we're maybe talking about something, you know, fascinating or to do with feminism or something, a waiter will always come over and sort of say, hi, ladies, do you want a cocktail or something? And we'll always like look at, like, you know, it's really sort of patronising like we're an episode of sex in the city and I always want to think like, Well, you wouldn't say that to a group of men. Yeah.

You wouldn't offer us like, you know, I don't know, it's really bizarre to suddenly go, oh, we were just talking as like, you know, a group of people. And suddenly we sort of forget that we've been like gendered and then have this sort of thing projected onto us. Well, we were just talking about, we were just having a nice time talking. So your brilliant book talks about your childhood. and I want to go back again, back in time to Wales, and what sort of a child you were growing up?

Well, I was, I think the main, the word that was always on all school reports was sensitive. It was just always the thing it came back to. I remember my school reports were all like, not that, you know, it's funny that my mind first went to school reports as if that's any indication of what you're like. But I remember it was very sort of like, It's quiet, sensitive, kind of thorough, thoughtful shit at PE.

That was always like the vibe that kind of followed me around. You know, could spend hours in a creative task, really happy. Had a really rich fantasy life on the off, total kind of dreamlike state. And I was incredibly shy. I'd have a sort of selective mutism where I wouldn't like to say. speak outside of the house and um i had it until about maybe five years ago um where i'd suddenly get this like flash of like intense self-consciousness and would stop speaking um and i've had to really just grow out of it and fight it but i i'd get this kind of um just this kind of closed shutting down

I've always had this I've always had this this kind of weird shutdown thing that I do yeah which I has stopped but it's taken a long time I think just building up my resilience to

whatever shame is going on so yeah I was I was like I think I was quiet I had quite an even temperament and I just remember the world was a very confusing, strange place and but it was just very sort of creative and you were close to your folks

yeah we were really really close really close and my dad didn't really like people visiting he was like really I think had quite a lot of shame himself and he didn't really like people you know, his dream would be to sort of live on a cliff in the middle of nowhere. And my mum was incredibly social and sort of charming. But they were both very funny, very funny. All my family are funny.

So I thought it was completely normal. And I'd go to the people's house and stuff and I'd be like, their mum wasn't very funny. Like, that's weird. It's like I've heard Amy Winehouse say that she just thought everyone sang because her family sang. It was like that, but just being really... sort of entertaining.

So in some ways, I don't really value being funny, because I think it's like, I sort of think it's not even anything. I just think it's like genetic. I just think it's in my DNA. Like I don't feel, I don't get that excited when people say, I think you're funny.

Like some people I really see, they desperately need. Yes, I see that. That. And of course, it's nice, it's powerful, it's like a power to have, it was my first taste of power, was being funny absolutely

if I didn't have it I know what the hell I'd do but I think because it was just part of my family I sort of and also they were they had a sort of slightly different public way to they were at home so I would sort of associate being funny with almost being a bit people-pleasy and almost with my mum sometimes

almost out of anxiety she would sort of go into this really funny mode which would be so funny and disarming. And I did it at my 20s, definitely. Whenever I got nervous, I would just start, like, monologuing. And so now I slightly, you know, all those years of therapy on, I'm sort of being this real authentic person all the time. And I think I've gone the other way and I've got really unfunny,

which is a shame, real shame. I think you articulated in your book how I think I probably felt without even realising. you know until I read your book that all these moments and I'm sure a lot of women experienced that you sort of thought oh my god yes that happened to me and that happened to me yeah um to do with our bodies to do with yeah to do with just this strange internal shame that you carry around yeah from a really young age yeah it's such a it's sadly such a sort of normal part of the female

experience isn't it yeah I'm I I I think I had this sense. Well, I didn't realize until I think I was much older. And then when the chapter that I briefly write about consent, I think the reason I, and it's not like a great sort of, you know, essay. It's just, it was a way to try and articulate that I think if you've grown up and being fat shamed from a young age and being, what's the word, like objectified from a young age. I had this really strong sense that my body wasn't really mine.

That was the message I wanted to get across. So then I think in my 20s, if I found myself in a situation with a man, I didn't know how to advocate for my body or for what I wanted or didn't want. And I think that's directly linked to having been fat shamed. And I just thought it was interesting because there's an amazing book, Aubrey Gordon wrote, which is a lot more looking at the relationship between fat and consent. And I thought, yeah, that's really interesting. It's definitely part of in the mix of, I mean, well, you know, without sort of victim blaming,

but it's definitely in the mix of having a body that you think is worth, worthy to stand up for. And yeah, it definitely, you know, I've been so many different sizes and I've under-eaten and over-eaten. And finally, I think I've conquered it through a lot of like hard work in therapy. but that set up a relationship, food in my body, definitely. I think I was about seven when I was first fat shamed. And it's really hard. I remember absorbing that message so deeply. And I think I have to fight it every day to just get to a kind of, I don't know,

average level of self-esteem. But it's tricky because I also have days where I think, don't want to fall into that sort of boring sort of female paradigm of oh we all hate our bodies and I don't like join in with conversations anymore where people are sort of going oh god I hate my thighs and then someone goes yeah me too like I don't I don't do it because I can't speak to my body like that do you feel sometimes my similar thing I had I would find um women talking about getting older. Yeah, that's my new.

And how they look terrible and I look so old. I've refused to join in those conversations now. Yeah, that's great. And I knew the message was, it's not right for you to be okay. You're breaking the rules. Yeah, yes. And when I gave up trying to change my body,

I think it was breaking the rules. It was like a huge taboo that I'm not trying to improve it or change it. I'm just trying to be. Oh, there's a little child. But his dad's saying, please don't get in the mud. Hello. Hello.

That's my dog. Do you like him? He's a bit silly, isn't he? Do you like him? Not sure. I know. He's a grower, I promise. Nice to meet you.

Oh, dear. Oh, thank you. Oh, it's okay. Is that for the dog? I think he was throwing the bread at the door. I think. is through the bread down and some sort of protest.

Should we sit here? It's so nice walking and talking. It's one of my favorite things to do with friends, you know. Do you know some of my banana bread? Oh, I've got that ball of... Oh, did I give me the cocoa? I bought Katie the cacao

and we'll give away a treat. I really got into trouble for eating on a podcast, though. People were like, about seven people complain when I was eating a carrot. Look at this, Katie. We'll give her his treat. Come on. So tell me, were you quite academic?

Were you popular? I knew I was bright. I got very overwhelmed in lessons. There was not of anxiety. And I didn't always listen. And I went to, I mean, you know, I did the whole thing. Got good A-levels, went to uni. So I was more academic than my brother.

But then also in my group of friends, I think I was the only one who didn't go to Oxbridge. So I think compared to them, I felt like I'd fucked it. I had such anxiety in such a young age, and I just didn't listen. I was kind of overwhelmed. I went to the comp down the road. You know, it's big classes, like 32 or whatever.

And I think if I'd gone to, you know, in different circumstances, I think I would have been helped and coached a bit more. But I remember just finding it overwhelming. to take in the information somehow. I'd never really know what that was about. And it's funny, like I started having guitar lessons in lockdown, and I really, really loved it. But I really reverted back to how I was in school.

I would feel myself get... The teacher, I'm like reading music, and he is going into all the sort of music theory stuff, which is really complex. And I would feel myself get this kind of, that weird anxiety, and I just stopped listening. So I don't know what that's about. But I suddenly realized that if I, if I'd voiced that, then maybe I would have got help with that.

It was like all the noise and the, like, the boys behind me. I just remember that it wasn't like an environment where you felt like you could pay attention. And because I was the first person to go to university from my family, it didn't feel like that anybody was really good at sort of, you know, helping with homework. They were bright in their own way. I think, but they hadn't, like, gone to uni or anything. So there wasn't that sort of academic structure at home. Yeah.

I think I did pretty well. I just, I knew that I understood things, but I wasn't, you know, I was just kind of off in a daydream and a lot of the time. I was very good at fitting in. I just, like, chameleon-like would kind of fit in. But I had like a really, I think by sort of six form, I had my core group that I'm still kind of friends with and it was all great. That was like a really good time.

But I think I wasn't really funny until I was about 15. Really? I didn't really speak much. No, I was just really overwhelmed. I mean, I remember feeling like we were a bit different because of what my parents did and stuff. And I guess it just felt different because like in the evening, evening after school and stuff, like, I'd go with my mum to the theatre where dad worked and we'd, like, wait by stage door and it's still there in Cardiff now, this big theatre. And I'd get to meet, like, these kind of random celebs at stage door. I'd be like seven or eight and they'd, like, you know, ruffle my hair and talk to me.

And I remember sort of thinking it was a weird thing the next day when people would be like, you know, I watched Descenders. I'd almost feel a bit weird about it. I'd be like, oh, I met, you know, Peter Andre, whatever it was. And I sort of sat in a lighting box and was allowed to press this button that made the stage go a different colour or whatever it was. And also I remember because my mum worked for this dance company. So a lot of, instead of babysitting, I'd have to sit in rehearsals and watch these, these like, it was like a contemporary dance company.

So it was very kind of like, you know, quite avant-garde. So again, I just, it just felt really different, you know, and weird. And the school was, like, pretty rough. And I just remember sort of feeling like I had to fit in. And I had, like, a stronger accent. I don't have it now at all. But I sounded more like Charlotte Church. And just tried to seem like normal, you know,

not draw attention to yourself. And there was definitely a culture almost of don't look like you're trying too hard or you'd be called a swat. So I think even that was part of it. That I didn't ever put my hand up in class and say what the answer was, even if I knew it. There was a bit in the book, Katie, which, where you tell a joke and you interrupt this.

Oh, that, yeah, yeah, yeah. You interrupted guy's punchline. And it's a fascinating moment because it's about, to me, it was about you, it's sort of identifying or realizing that you were, you were funnier than this guy, his middle-aged guy. Because some of my, we had to go to, my grandfather was not very nice man. And he had these big sort of army dues that we had to go to. and I always hated it, I really resented it.

But also I really love writing about that age of just when you're about to feel like a woman, that kind of 13, 14 years old. And what I remember about it is that having to go to this sort of party in a big lawn and there being just so many men there because it's like an army thing and feeling suddenly, you know, I was in this kind of posh dress that was slightly shorter and tighter than I was used to. and I remember it being a bit of a thing with my mum that she really wasn't sure if I should wear such an adult dress

and I just remember instantly feeling like the male gaze and being so self-conscious and it was the first time I sort of felt the energy of men look at me and that I was old enough to be considered like sexually attractive and I remember it just being a huge moment and it feeling very sort of overwhelming and sometimes it would sort of be I felt like men were looking at me like

oh, are you, am I, are you old enough to fancy, yes or no? You know, I was so just at that kind of age of, and just how uncomfortable, but also thrilling it was, exhilarating feeling. But then also at the same time, you know, constant criticism of my body. So it was very sort of confusing of like, well, you know, some people want it clearly, but also at the same time, other women usually saying oh you know you're too big or whatever

or you don't want to get any bigger or you have such a nice face if you just lost some weight you know but but also looking back you know the irony is it's obviously not about size but I wasn't even big so yeah and this is a sort of posh old man

who was sort of holding court and being horrible to his wife and he started telling this joke and I and I suddenly thought, oh, I know this joke, I've heard it. So I just said it, I just said the punchline, I didn't know what I was doing, and he was furious, and then, yeah, like, there was a moment I was by the toilets, and he just, I mean, I really exaggerated it for, like, comic effect in the book,

but he, you know, he said to me, never ever interrupt your elders, young lady, again, and he was furious, and I thought maybe he was going to hit me or something. I mean, it was really scary. I don't think he was, but that's how it felt, and, um, I remember running away and just thinking, oh my God, like, what have I done? This is like a superpower. You know, he was so angry. I kind of thought I was helping, I think.

I think it was like, oh, yeah, don't worry, I'll say it. And I was just so relieved to be able to contribute. And I was at the grown-up table and I was, you know, 13. And I was like, oh, I know this joke. But he was furious. And I sort of joke, that's how I got into comedy, which is sort of a joke. but I like the idea that that's how it began. Did you do drama when you went to university?

Yeah, yeah. I went to Warwick and the course was very, it was quite heavily sort of performance art, live art scene, and I was really into it. I just, that's what I thought I was going to do. I thought that was going to be like Marina Abramovich. So I don't quite know how I ended up in like mainstream comedy, to be honest. but the first Edinburgh shows I did

which were quite weird in anarchic they absolutely were based in that kind of devising of experimental theatre just that but kind of oh your dog's ever so sweet that's so lovely you've got that to help him

what happened if it's okay to ask he had a spinal stroke oh bless the back bit just stopped The cord's gone, basically. Hello. He's staring at squirrels, that's where he's got a crazy face on. Wow, that's ever so lovely.

Oh, thank God the technology exists. He's not just a squirrel yet. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? Oh, the poor little thing. Yeah, he's a black labrador and he's got a suspended. Yeah, he's got the two stabilisers. She thinks we're staring too much. I do you think so?

And when did you start feeling that you were getting attention and offers of work? From about 25, I've always kind of worked. Yeah, I've been really lucky. I mean, I had about three years of shit jobs, mostly working in shops. And, yeah, from about 25, 26, I just was always, you know, writing and creating stuff or in other people's things. I would like to bring us up to date with your career because I had Jamie Dmitzio on this podcast. Oh, great. Did he bring his dog? He didn't bring his dog.

By the way, this is from filming. I wouldn't choose this. I just don't have any remover. It's bright sort of yellow lemon nail varnish. It's all right. I was thinking it was quite cheap. Well, I did this thing. Do you know the comedian Mouan Rizwan. He painted them yellow. Maybe I asked him to. I don't remember. We were doing this thing together and I said, they realise it's just coming off.

It looks gross. I saw the, can I be honest, I saw the yellow nails. You spoils it now. Because I thought, it made me think, oh, she's so cool and young and millennial. She's got yellow nails. I'll take it all back.

And we've messed up this very trendy coffee shopping, she's got the yellow nails. She's got the yellow nails on. And I've got remnants of a bit Kate Middleton ballet pink. And you're holding a small fern. Yeah. So Stachlets Flats. I had Jamie Dmitzoo on this podcast, and I mean, he's so charming.

Oh, he's, yeah. But I discovered that show, and I almost couldn't believe how brilliant it was. And how brilliant you are, because Carol is, we all know Carol. We all work with Carol, we see Carol every day and everything. I mean, as soon as you walked on and I saw the two blonde the streets, every time. You know when I wake up every day? I do my hair, I think, does it look a bit of Carol?

It's so funny you said that because the third series, we'd put clippins in before we were like, and now they're more prominent, and we had to clear it with the producer and stuff. It's like, this is okay. She's got like an extra streak. I think she's got like maybe a fourth, and it's even more prominent.

Yeah, I mean, I just think it's, I'm so proud of it. I just love it. So we're all such good friends. It's such a sort of lovey cliche, but like we all just talk about how lucky we feel like you know we've all gone on to do other stuff and we're all just like bereft and we just know it's not ever going to be the same because it's like we are we've all got the same sense of humour you know we're all good friends we we I think

the episodes are almost too long because we were just improvising so much and we all just just have this chemistry where we no one sort of says no one drops like a massive clangor we just seem to have this kind of language. that we understand of the show. And I think this series is the best, yeah. I think it's bonkers. It's so, so funny. But, yeah, it just feels like,

I feel so grateful to be in something and actually think, oh, this is creative and original and weird and funny. And Jamie said to me, he kept referencing, you know, the apprentice candidates, which, I mean, I'm obsessed with. So I got it straight away what he wanted.

And just all these sort of people from, like, 90s, television shows we talked about. So I completely got it. It's, you know, I guess it's a bit like the office, isn't it? It's people who sort of think they're wacky, fascinating, you know. I mean, done with compassion, obviously. We're not punching down, but just also like,

fascinating. But also what I love about it is I think it celebrates the kind of, you know, everyday weirdness. Yes, yeah. I think when you hear people speak in real life, People do say really weird things and get words wrong and, you know, I think real life is more surreal than we imagine when we're trying to write naturalistic dialogue. And I think he captures that really really well. You know the fact that Al lives in Birmingham and goes on the coach.

It's never quite a weird guy. Like, who is he? And knows Japanese. I presume Jamie was familiar with you as a performer and what did you involve? Well, I gave him his first job, really. So we met I met him up at the Edinburgh Festival and he

I think it's 2009 something like that and we were doing our sketch show me and Anna Crilly and we hired him and Tash his sister to write on our show so we gave them their first sort of TV job and then he was in our sketch show and I remember thinking my God

like this kid's going to you know I remember saying to him, like, you're going to employ me one day, mate. You're obscenely talented. I could just see it. And, yeah, he did. So I've known him since, I've known for, you know, 10 odd years. And, yeah, so it was just really exciting to get it, to be able to do it. It strikes me as quite collaborative as well.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's terrifying, but in some ways, I think it was that thing of, improvising when the stakes are that high where everyone's being so, so funny, and, you know, it's won all these BAFTAs and so on. It does feel like extreme pressure that you're going to have to just sort of say something incredible, which is sort of exhausting and terrifying. But then at the end, the sense of accomplishment, I suddenly realized, God, I haven't actually felt that I've been in this kind of blazee a few years maybe of thinking,

oh, you know what I'm doing, I'll just turn up and sort of do it. do that silly voice that'll do or whatever. To suddenly think, oh God, yeah, this is like the early days. This is like at the beginning when you're adrenalised and it really feels like what you're doing is new and exciting and it matters and you really want to get it right. And I hadn't felt like that in a while. And so it was kind of really exhilarating. It's taken me all this time, but I would love to just carry on making weird comedy

for the rest of my life. But, you know, I don't know if I can afford to, but I feel really inspired by him. that I can, you know, I think it's taken me, it comes back to childhood in many ways in that I think I'm not very good at saying no to things. Even now I struggle because I don't want people to be disappointed or to upset people or to have people go, who do you think you are, that you think you're too good for this thing? But obviously that just makes me miserable. And then I'm the one in it on the... So I'm the one who ends up looking like

I'm advocating for this when I'm not and it just makes me resentful. But it's difficult as well because I also feel so grateful for the to be working. So I think it's a really tricky balance of being grateful and being sort of humble. So come here,

Raymond. Look, Katie. Katie's laughing at my dog What do you do to I'm glad you did you laugh I sometimes when you've been through a really tough time which I think you're still in yours to be honest And you will be for a while

Do I seem like that? No you don't actually This is me of the good day Well the way it did have to sleep in the O'T Don't forget because my boiler's broken. I did sleep under those big yellow things. Oh, God. Do you find sometimes, after you've experienced

of prolonged grief, my experience was that when I'd laugh, I remember the first time I sort of laughed properly because it felt like so long since I'd laughed. And I just thought, oh, I forgot when I could do that. Yeah, I found it made me so grateful for small things. And there was a point where, so after the last death and after the last, you know, the admin was out of the way. And things had, and I was saying this to my siblings, once things had sort of started to calm down,

I think my body was so, was still expecting, you know, the adrenaline was still going. and it was still expecting like a phone call to say someone else has died it was still it was still expecting you know disaster which is a very kind of post-traumatic way of being i think anyway so i remember that that that it took about sort of six months for my body to really believe that there wasn't something awful coming i mean ironically there was and i had an operation about i had to have like major surgery after my mum died three months after which is also pretty traumatic and awful and a tree fell down in front of my front door and I couldn't get into my I was so things did actually carry on happening weirdly but I've reached a point now yeah where it's it's I'm starting to have a nice time again and I'm really grateful to have these kind of periods of that I feel okay and that I'm not feeling massively triggered and that it's just nice and doing nice things for myself yeah I'm really there is It feels really amazing just to go somewhere and not to be glued to my phone or thinking the hospital's going to call, this person's going to call.

And I feel very protective of that piece. And yeah, I mean, but it's in some ways it's like my tolerance, it's built my tolerance for everyday stress. But at the same time, it only takes lots of little small things to really tip me over the edge. you know, the boiler breaking, and suddenly I associate, it's funny, I remember when I went into deep shock, I was so cold at the time. And for some reason, when the boiler broke, I was so anxious about being cold

because I associate it with being really traumatised. I don't know why I just do. So I had a bit of a spin-out about, I won't be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to, you know, like these basic things I have to do to have good mental health. for me include like being warm fed you know so when I can't do that I get very panicked because I feel like I've got my sort of self-care down to such a sort of specific exact thing

I'm so good at it now not always but it's like I have these really basic requirements that if I don't do these things then I'm going to be in trouble so it's made life a bit simpler in some ways that I mean, I think I said in a book, I mean, there was a day where I just, like, you know, had a really good peach. And I just remember thinking, like, this is the only good thing that's going to happen today. But that's okay. You know, I have to go to hospital now, but this peach was good. So it has made me feel very grateful.

Because there were a time, when a really dear friend of mine just lost someone very suddenly, really, really horrendous circumstances a few weeks ago. We are at the moment going on these long, you know, three-hour walks, talking, talking, talking. And I can't believe that I... It's given what happened to me real meaning because I genuinely can help her. And I don't know about you, but before this happened to me, I wouldn't have known what to have said. And I think some people have been a bit frightened of it and have kind of ignored her. And I've been right there, like, doesn't frighten me at all, even when she's whaling.

don't feel remotely frightened and at the same time there's nothing you know it's so ineffable it's beyond words and all that but she said me the day she said I she said you said this this and this the other day and it really really helped and I just feel so

like privileged to be able to be A to be well enough to start helping others I haven't been previously I've had to be like really selfish just to get through it so the fact that I'm in a place to help others is amazing and also it really helps me to help her.

And I just didn't even realise I had all this sort of wisdom. It just gives you this wisdom, doesn't it? It's very specific wisdom. There's like a big rave has just started up. What's going on with the rave? Do you want to move again? I don't mind. We can read that.

We'll walk up here. The rave started. It's like a live band in the park. Oh, it's James Brown. Oh, yeah. Did you end up in this lovely part of London? No, I lived in Britain. for years and years when I was and it was a real laugh like from about you know I was in my late 20s

it was really fun times being in Brixton so um I yeah I just saved up and bought this this little flat here but it's so my God like things go wrong with this place every six months something breaks or goes wrong it's kind of been a bit of a nightmare which way case you that way I'm following you. Oh, okay. I actually don't recognise this bit. Oh, it's all right. Let's go out there. I feel if we're in a clearing. It's like in a movie. When they get lost, we find a clearing and it's all I. It's pretty Jurassic Park for this bit.

But it's really... It's like, I love my place, but it's really deceptively high-mainters. Yeah. Are you a perfectionist, Casey? Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, no, I am. I mean, I'm obsessive about things. Definitely. Like, really, I get totally absorbed and obsessive about things. And you somebody thinks, unless I can do it perfectly, I don't want to do this thing.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That, for me, that's why I think the book took so long, because I was honing my taste. I was reading loads, which is what I did before I started writing. It's funny because not, not, when I've been, like, talking about the book, not, not, people don't often ask me about, like, the, you know, the craft, you know, the craft of writing, which I love talking about it because I feel like I've learned so much. and improved so much as a writer. I'm going to Cardiff-Une to talk to the MA students, the creative writing image, which is like the thing I'm most excited about, more than anything to do with TV in the moment, to just sit in a room and just nerd out about favourite writers and stuff. But anyway, so I sort of read so much

to help me sort of work out what my voice was a bit more before entering into it. And the more I would read, you know, incredible writing, I would feel so intimidated. And then what I would write would be so far away from what I knew to be good writing that I'd sort of give up. So it was like the more I knew,

the more my taste improved and my awareness of good writing improved, the shitter I would feel about my own writing because I had that sort of self-awareness of like, oh God, you know, now I've read whatever it is, this is terrible. So I think my standards got higher through kind of learning. But the procrastination were kicking.

The starting is horrendous. I had real imposter syndrome. I think because, you know, I have this real thing about that I didn't go to, that I'm not Oxbridge and I'm surrounded by people who did. And I had to talk to my friend about it, ages and he was like who did do English at Cambridge so I was like well obviously I'm going to defer to everything and he was like he said but what you have to understand is I did English at Cambridge yes but you're more creative than me like

you just are from all our conversations spending time together you have more ideas than me and I could quote Virgil but I actually think you have better ideas than me and it was like I don't know it's like a real unlocking or something yeah you need friends to remind you of that stuff because you can lose sight of you how others see you yeah yeah and especially if like us you think everything you do is terrible and yeah and they've always been arty and I thought actually like clinging onto that artistry is um diff you know it's different it's a different skill to like studying a medieval poet and doing a dissertation on them so I was I was able to sort of go it's

okay I just have to focus at what I'm good at and that's still valid. Oh Katie look at that doll. What is it? It's a grey cloud isn't it? Do you know I've loved our walk? I haven't you enjoyed it? What do you think of

Raymond Katie? I think he's adorable. I could really see me with a Raymond. I just don't think it will practically work but I feel really quite jealous that you get like a toy to play with every day. What about if you sometimes Would you like to maybe borrow him sometimes?

Yeah, I'd love that. And take him round from Peck and Rye. Oh, you heard that, didn't you, Raymond? You heard that you were going to have a godmum? Oh, maybe you could be Raymond's godmother. I'd love that. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.