Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Kaye Adams (Part One)

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Join us on a gorgeous spring day in Holland Park with the legendary broadcaster and Loose Women panellist Kaye Adams!Kaye’s dog Bea is at home in Glasgow - but we find out how much everyone in the Adams household absolutely adores her… sometimes to a somewhat inappropriate extent. We find out all about Kaye’s upbringing in Scotland - as a show-off child with parents who ran a haulage business. We discuss how Kaye’s mother inspired her to seek a ‘better’ life and how she feels like the landscape has changed for women since her adolescence. Kaye also tells us about the start of her extraordinary broadcasting career - which saw her interview then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher at Number 10 when she was just 24 years old - and what it was like to be one of the first reporters on the scene at Lockerbie. Follow @kayeadamsofficial on Instagram Kaye is the host of the podcast ‘How To Be 60’ - a podcast that encourages its listeners to live their best lives at 60 and beyond. She believes turning 60 isn’t about slowing down, it’s about shaking things up! Listen to the show now wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're very Scottish so we can be a bit buttoned up, but we put all of our affection into the dog. So we're all ludicrously, oh my God, beep, beep, beep, oh, I love you, I love you. With the dog, with each other, we're like, all right, you okay? Right, uh-huh. This week on walking the dog, Ray and I went for a stroll in London's beautiful Holland Park with the fabulous Kay Adams. Kay's cockapoo B was back home in Glasgow when we met up with her,

shortly after she just recorded loose women, but she couldn't wait to tell us all about her and she was also very keen to get to know Raymond. Kay's obviously become a very familiar face to all of us as one of our best love TV and radio presenters from her appearances on ITV's Luce Women to her show on BBC Radio Scotland, her stint on Strictly Come Dancing

and her brilliant podcast How to Be 60 where she and her co-host, Karen McKenzie, chat to all sorts of interesting people about rewriting the rulebook on ageing. Kay and I had the loveliest walk with Ray chatting about her really interesting backstory growing up in Scotland and how as a budding young reporter she managed to get an exclusive interview with the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and I was fascinated to hear all about that experience. We also obviously talk loads about how loose women has been such a huge part of her life,

how she met her husband, Ian the tennis coach, who I love the sound of by the way, and why she's finally starting to embrace getting older. Kay is obviously a very bright, funny, interesting woman, but she also comes across as someone who's really honest and has a lot of integrity. She's kind of a BS-free zone, which is why I had so much time for her, and I think you're going to absolutely love her too. Do listen to Kay's podcast, How to Be 60, because it's such a great show. You'll love it.

And I also really hope you enjoy our dog walk. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the fabulous woman has. self, here's Kay and Ray Re-Rey. Should we get going? Yes, and are you going to walk, young man? Are you just going to be carried about like an emperor? He is an imperial shih Tzu, Kay. I mean, that is a classy dog.

Do you think so? Oh, Raimondo. You are. Hey. Come on, Ramondo. I feel I'm missing a dog. I'm upset because I usually have my bee with me. I know.

Well, I want to find out all about bee because I love the sound of bee. Should we go in here then? Let's go in here. This is very poor. I think it's fitting for Raymond that we met outside the Greek embassy, Kay. Well, he's not Greek, is he? No, but he's quite snooty. God, I hope I didn't stand on him, and then we'll be in trouble.

I nearly did that with a dachshund once. It passed by me. I was, you know, you step off a step. I went to step off a step, and it just went underneath the bloody step at the wrong moment, and nearly broke its back. It triggers me that, does. So, Ramondo, don't worry. Remondo.

No. He's quite, he's oddly sturdy, to be honest. He will go very slowly though. That's nice. Tell me about B then. What, what, I mean, you can tell my interests here. I haven't even said how excited I am to be with you. I'm just like, tell me about your dog. Well, you're, you'd be excited to be with my dog, yes, yeah, yeah.

Oh God, my dog, it's funny, I was saying to my 18 year old rather inappropriately the other night, we all love B so much in our family. So there's E and me and the two girls. and we're very Scottish so we can be a bit buttoned up, but we put all of our affection into the dog. So we're all ludicrously, oh my God, beep, beep, beep, be. Oh, I love you, I love you.

With the dog, and with each other, we're like, all right, are you okay? Right, uh-huh. So she was going, oh, beep, beep, be with the dog. Don't you love her, mum? And I said, yes, I do, I love her, I love her. And I turned away and I went, yeah, she's our sex toy. And Bonnie went, what? That's too much, mum.

That's too much. I don't mean that, but about what? But you know what I mean? I think the dog in a family can become the repository for the emotion because like the family is just kind of getting on and oh my God, there's nothing in the fridge and what time you're coming in and can be a bit grumpy,

you know, but not with the dog. We are never, ever, any of us, grumpy with the dog. We are always our better selves. better selves. So she is a cockapoo. She's 12. I don't even like saying that number because you know what I'm thinking. And she

is such a delight in our lives. I just can't tell you how much. And it was the classic thing. Kids insisted, want a dog. I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, the last thing I needed my life is a dog. But we did the trial run with a rabbit. It didn't end well.

Oh, okay. There was a fox involved. That's all I'm saying. So that was traumatic. Oh, cutie. Hello, sweetheart. Do you like Raymond? Oh no, I was talking to your dog. You're trying to pick people up in the park.

Sorry. I'm so sorry. I'll leave you two to get on, shall I? Not woman, Kate. You just got to her one and said, do you like Raymond? That's a bit needy, isn't it? Oh my God. So the rabbit didn't end?

well. No, the rabbit didn't end well. The rabbit did meet an untimely demise. I thought, okay, let's do the dog. And yeah, honestly, B has been such a beautiful addition to our lives. I would never have predicted. You know, we all love her in our different ways. I walk her, and she loves me the best, and I take enormous joy out of that. Bonnie, my youngest, terrorises her, even though she's now 18, but in a nice way. Ian is, like, weird with her. I think we need a psychosexual counsellor on it. It's, like, proper weird.

Why? Well, you know, you're just watching the television quite happily, and she's sitting beside me. Then occasionally, she'll jump off the couch and lie on the rug. He seizes his opportunity at that point when, you know, she's separated from me. And he'll lie down on the... the rug with her, gazing into her eyes, whispering sweet nothings. And honestly, I'm like, this is uncomfortable, but I'll just let him do it anyway. Is he like that with you, Kay?

No, that's it. We're Scottish with each other. You know, we can sort of see each other after three weeks, because we both travel a lot. You go, hi, how was it? Is it all right? Yeah, good. Uh-huh. Okay, lovely.

All right, well, I'm going off to do this now. With the dog, it's like, oh my God, baby. This is just so much. I find that fascinating now. I'm a counsellor. As I say it, I know it's weird. I don't think it is weird. I think it's really fascinating how it's one of the roles that dogs play in our lives, I think,

is that my therapist once told me they're transitional objects. So what happens when there's tension, for example, you know, like after an argument or, The dog sort of diffuses that because the dog's there and you can make it about the dog and not about the row in the room or something. Do you know what I mean? Oh no. I mean it really is.

Oh, oops. There's a lovely family bunch. Yeah, joking aside, before we had B I had a good friend of mine, a very good friend of mine since university who had a dog and two things. He struggled

with depression and his dog was a really, really important, I was going to say person in his life, but you know what I mean, presence in his life in terms of helping with that. And if I'm entirely honest, I was maybe a slightly cynical about it, but, you know, I didn't obviously say anything.

And then the second thing was that he met lots of doggy friends who he would just meet once or twice a week, purely on the dog walk, and, you know, had nothing else to do with the rest of his life. they were his doggy friends. And if I'm entirely honest, at that point, without having had a dog, I was slightly sceptical. And then, of course, get the dog, da-da-da.

And I completely see on both counts, I now have doggy friends, that it's a really important part of my life on a Saturday. I go to the same cafe, I meet the same people. We do the same sort of root with the dogs. we have the same routine and it's a really special part of my life now and equally from an emotional point of view I completely see where he's coming from

because I mean I know people say like dogs don't judge you and that's pretty obvious I haven't met Raymond yet to be fair oh really women are you a judgey guy but they don't they don't want any answers from you you know you don't have to have we have so many conversations in our life don't we

There's so much of our life now. Sorry, darling. You know, talking things out and people talk about, you know, you need to communicate, and of course you do. But to be with another creature that loves you and you love and there's no need for conversation is wonderful. Yeah, you're right. That's really special that part of it, isn't it?

You don't have to explain yourself. Nobody's asking you, why did you do that? that. Are you going to do this? Are you going to do that? Why did you say that? Why did you? Blah, blah, blah. They just sit with you. You know, you were talking about your friend who'd been suffering from depression. I think why dogs are so helpful is that they're very emotionally consistent. So, you know, there's that thing I think Freud says, which is, oh, oh, oh, oh, Christa Riemann. He looks, oh, don't worry. Is your dog okay? He's fine. Oh, that was people playing football. Please don't worry. Ray got hit by a football, but at least it was

neon pink. Oh, hey. Are you okay? He's fine. Oh, good dog. He's absolutely fine. He's okay, isn't he? You've got a good kick on you, my goodness. Yeah, just like his daddy.

My father and son. Well, it's very lovely to meet you. Yeah. And everything's all right. Raymond will survive. Good day to you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Oh my God, did Raymond get a ball in there? I think he was all right, wasn't it? It went on his side. I think he was fine. Oh, that's what you come. walking in a park in a nice spring day, unfortunately. Luckily, it wasn't a crope. I think we'll take turns at carrying Raymond from now on.

I was saying before Raymond got hit by a pink football, yeah, there's that thing, I think it's Freud that said, because he was obsessed with dogs. Was he? Yeah, he used to have chow chow's in his room when he was seeing clients. And he said, dogs bite their enemies and love their friends, quite unlike humans who bite their friends.

Yeah. Yeah, that's... Quite a depressing view in some ways, but sort of nonetheless, truthful. Yeah, I get that actually, aren't you? I mean, even like what you think with your kids, your children often test you, don't they?

They test you and test you and test you and test you, and that is to try and work out if there are any conditions to your love. Is there anything that they can do that is going to make... Hugh not love them. Whereas I don't think dogs operate in that way. You know, because I guess that's quite a complex thing, isn't it? Look at those lovely flowers. Can we go buy those lovely flowers? Can we go buy those lovely flowers? We should say where we are. We're in Holland Park. And do you know

what, Kay? We met you here because you were doing loose women earlier today, which we're going to talk about. I'm so excited that you were doing loose women today. I know it's a bit weird, but I just am still very excited by these women. So this is relatively near the BBC and Holland Park. And it's so beautiful here, isn't it? It is really like, spring has just popped. We just came through that gorges, that wisteria. Yeah. Which is absolutely beautiful, isn't it?

And the tulips in this garden are, and like everybody is out. Everybody is out and just like, loving it. So I want to know a bit about your childhood, because this was growing up in Scotland. And from what you've said, I get the sense you had a really lovely stable. happy childhood, didn't you? I did, you know, and it's funny because doing a show like loose women, which I have for so many years, you almost feel embarrassed having had a bog standard normal upbringing.

And, you know, you think, oh God, I've got to try and pull something out the drawer here. Because, yeah, I did. You know, Central Scotland, Mom and Dad. Well, you know, it's funny because for years on Lose Women, I was not embarrassed, but I thought, oh my God. Why have I had such a boring upbringing when everyone else has had great dramatic tales? But as time has gone on and actually where we are in 2025, I do have a different view on it because although I did have a brilliant childhood,

my mum and dad were fantastic, there's no traumas there to uncover, I can't give you anything like that. But what I now look back at it and think was different is my mum and dad started a business together, a haulage business. and my mum actually was very much ahead of her time in that she worked in the business with my dad they were very much equal partners she was not a mumsy mum she was very undomestic

she shrunk all our jumpers and eventually we had to get a cleaner she was a terrible cook she wasn't there when we came home from school she never turned up at school sports days and it was fab You know, most of my friends' mums were more traditional mums. And I'm not knocking that, but she wasn't. Yeah. And when I look back now, and off and on this women will have conversations about mum guilt. And I actually, when I speak to younger women now, they speak so much about mum guilt

and feeling that they're not doing enough and they're not, you know, they're working, but they feel guilty about working. they're there enough of the kids are they good enough and yohen. Is he not so fond of other dogs? Oh don't worry he's a beautiful dog though He looks like to eat Raymond Is that a west carlent terrier?

That's not a westy That's a sky terrier No it's not a Scottish terrier A girl or boy? Boy No Oh absolutely no way to the boy the hand we're not. Oh well it wasn't to be. Lovely to meet you anyway. As a

Scot, I can say Scottish Terriers are grumpy bastards. Oh look hey. Playing chess. There's a real-life chess there. The Queen's Gambit. Yeah. Nice to see kids playing chess, isn't it? Do you know, I love the look of chess but it ends there? Yeah. Are you good at things like chess? I imagine it. Really, no? No. I got into Suduco for a while because of caravodum and then I came out of it. Yeah, no, no, it's not my... I can do it but not my game. And did you have a dog when you were growing up? Yeah, Chico the Wonder Dog. Well, first of all, my mum had...

Funny enough, my mum was probably, like me, was persuaded to have a dog because of us. And we ended up with Chihuahua, who was the most bad-tempered animal you have ever come across in your life. And it hated everyone except my mum. And my mom was the only one who didn't want a bloody dog. So she had Humphrey the Chihuahua who adored her and followed her everywhere. He got eaten by an Alsatian along the road.

It's a terrible story, isn't it? Oh God, you've had quite some traumatic experiences with that. I know, maybe I do have some trauma for loose women. And then we got Jack Russell called Chico who was just the family dog forever and who we, again, all adored. It was the most patient dog ever. We'd dress her up, we'd put her in a pram, she used to sleep with me, head on the pillow,

and she would always have a little stash of raw sausages under my pillow. Those were the days. And so was your background? I'm sort of trying to imagine it. Your parents were sort of business owners. So did you perceive yourself as sort of middle class, would you say? Well, no, the thing is, Scotland just doesn't have the same class system, I think, as England. Right.

You know, nobody's that far from a councilhouse in Scotland. You know, the middle class, the classic middle class in England, you know, where people have perhaps been professionals for generations, you know, whether they've been GPs or lawyers or whatever. That's not my experience of Scotland. It's much more like my grandfather's, one was a dock worker, one was a minor. and then my dad was a mechanic and my mum was a nurse

so there's this step up and then my dad decided being a mechanic that he was going to buy a lorry and so he started his business with one lorry and my mum did the books and then she eventually left nursing

and they kind of built up a business but you know neither had further education and then my brother and I came along and I went university. So within three generations you went from manual working, starting a business and doing a bit better for yourself, and then further education with me and my brother. So that is a very classic Scottish story. How would your family have seen you? If your parents had been talking one night and you crept down the stairs and overheard them, what do you think they'd have said

about you. Oh I was a show off. I mean my dad's if I had a penny for every time my dad said to me you're going over the score now young lady you're just going over the score but they were quite indulgent really I mean I think they're quite I was a cheeky little bugger quite gobby and I think they quite enjoyed that and did that extend to school and you were the class clown and no I was actually I'm really hating myself as I'm beginning to remember myself

but I think to be honest I was quite good at being on that line between being enough of a show off to be reasonably popular if I'm honest but I never went too far because I was also

quite studious but you never wanted to be a swat did you? I mean that was the worst thing because then you didn't have any friends So it was having that line to be enough of a smart arse to have lots of friends, but also to do the work and, you know, and not to be a teacher's pet, but I was always, I guess, quite ambitious. And my mum and dad, because they had, what's that, it's a term of the expression, you know, sort of make the best of yourself. It's a very working class thing, isn't it? But they did do that and they kind of instilled that into me so I wasn't going to screw it up.

I definitely didn't see myself staying in small town Scotland. Really? It's not in any way to be sniffy or judgmental of small town Scotland, but to be perfectly honest from a relative young age, I saw myself having a different kind of life. Did you? Isn't that interesting? I wonder why? I think it was my mum

and my dad they genuinely sort of encouraged a sense of you can do whatever you want you can be whatever you want you have the potential to I hate saying do better

because I don't think it is about being better but to expand your horizons yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we would go on holiday to Mallorca for two weeks in the summer, which was seen as the height of bloody luxury because most people would be in a caravan.

But that was my mum. She was a bit high since Bucay. I kind of love the sound of your mum. She was quite the... And I love the Hilary DeVay haulage business. Yeah. I mean, I met Hilary DeVay a few times, sadly passed away.

She was on this woman for a while. And whenever she was on, it made me think so much of my mum. mom and dad so much. You've got to be tough. Maybe I'm just basing that on Hillary today but no no you do. No it wasn't easy for my mom actually to be in that kind of business because I mean you're talking about the 1970s I guess largely well 1960s and 1970s and it's you kind of got to cast your mind back it just was not typical for women to be in a business environment working class women to be in a business environment at that time.

Yeah. So she did have to be quite kind of ballsy. And I was talking to somebody about this other day, which is she, people would see her as the bitch, which is a very strong word. And my dad is the good guy. Yeah. You know, because he was the gregarious,

sort of handsome, charming, da-da-da-da. Whereas in a business, somebody's got to be hard. So that was my mum. and people were quite happy to characterise her as, oh, she's a bit of a hard ticket, he's a lovely guy. And I think a lot of women at that time, unless you were going to be the wifie, that's what you had to be.

Yeah, it was quite a sort of binary choice, wasn't it? Yeah. And also, you know, we experience this, is that when a woman says no, people here fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we're still, I mean, obviously it's changing in a very different kind of landscape now, but there's still that kind of residual feeling, isn't that?

You've got to, difficult to be angry as a woman. And actually, I think it's getting worse. Do you? Yeah. I mean, I came out of university in the early 80s. And you went to Edinburgh, didn't you? Yeah. And I remember feeling then that,

You'd been subjected to what we used to call male chauvinism. Male chauvinous pigs were you to say. But we didn't talk about, oh, that poor wee thing. Little girl there having a meltdown when you remember that, don't you? When it just feels. With her daddy. I know. At least her daddy's comforting her.

Shame. Go on. Yeah, but there was a real sense of, as a young woman, you were going to be, not as they a ball breaker, but you could be whatever you wanted to be. We had shoulder pads, we had big earrings. You know, you had short hair. Yes.

Not allowed to have short hair anymore. You know, it was quite sort of power-souty. And I genuinely felt at that time that the world was my oyster, you know, and I wasn't going to take any shit from any guy and all that. And you had programs like, God, well, Zoe Ball and... What was that called again? The Girlie Show? The Girlie Show, shows like that and you had like Wankow of the wig

and the Ladek culture and everything. Which, okay, we can look back and think, oh maybe that wasn't... But there was that sort of energy. Whereas now, I mean, my girls are 22 and 18 and I think they're much more conscious of what it is to be... to be a girly girl. It's difficult for girls to have short hair. I know that sounds a ridiculous thing to say,

but so many young women, they are hyperfeminized, don't they? And there's an expectation that they're hyperfeminized. And they're very conscious of, you know, what male expectations are. And I wasn't, I was much more, fuck you, mate. You know, and that's gone. I mean, not that I'm suggesting that we should be aggressive in that sort of sense, but I just think women are getting pushed back into their box a little bit,

and it really worries me. That's so interesting, isn't it? And I wonder that thing, you know, you were saying actually, that normalisation of things like, I suppose, treatments for young people. I understand it when you're older, you know, but for young people, that feels very normalised now. Yeah. You know, and the expectation that everyone gets their brows done, everyone.

And I think back to the lack of maintenance we were expected to do. I don't want to be too indelicate, but even down below. Maybe we're just grateful to be down there. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. They used to be grateful, go ahead. To see your bush. I've had Kay Adams just said bush, and it's, frankly, I'm here for it. Sorry, do you want to sit down?

Just for a little one. How old is he? He's eight. I'm going to answer like your mom used to answer, which is I'm over 21. Oh, she never revealed her age, did she? I've got my tattoo there. What does your tattoo say? I'll show you it. I've only got one tattoo which I got when I was 60, I know. Over 21? Yeah. Over 21? Because that's what your mum used to say. That's what mom used to say, yeah. And do you have that as a reminder, as a tribute to your mom, but a also I know it's something you wrestled with and you've talked about a bit accepting your age

and is that sort of two reasons for that tattoo in a way? Yeah, it is. You know, I never wanted a tattoo ever and I'm not particularly fond of tattoos and people said, oh, once you get one, you'll get another and I won't. Because even now I sometimes think, oh, I do, I do that. So I never wanted a tattoo and then, because I didn't know what it was going to be. You know, somebody gets a bluebird on their arse or, or something. do you know, I don't know, a tulip on their shoulder and I'm like, why?

You know, so I never had anything that I wanted to actually ink myself for. And then I think, I don't know, it just must have struck me. And I was thinking about my mum and it was probably maybe a couple of years after she passed away. And actually I was thinking of starting the podcast, how to be 60. But it was just very much sort of germinating in my head. So I must have been, I don't know, three gin and tonics deep in these. these thoughts were kind of melding together. And it just struck me because I was thinking about her a lot

and that whole thing about her saying over 21 and never wanting to see how old she was. And I thought, yeah, I am going to go and I arranged it very, very quickly and within a week I had it. And yeah, it is quite special actually. It is quite nice. And do you feel, I feel like you've got to a point where, I mean, the fact that you've called your podcast.

How to be 60, and I'm now 62. It shows that you are a complete, much more at peace with that process. Oh, yeah, yeah, I am. Not with that process, but what I mean is it feels, because I wonder, Kay, and I know what you mean, and I wonder if we would have picked up on other people's attitudes around it, that you were meant to feel shame as a woman about getting older.

Absolutely, and that's, I mean, going back to my dear old mum, who, you know, was a bit ahead of her time. You know, to be, it was difficult enough to be a woman in business, but to be an old woman, you know, is again something else. So I think that was probably part of her thinking, you know, you don't want to give people too many bullets to shoot at you. And being an old woman, a sort of matron. the old woman, you have no authority. Yeah. You know, it's like Jackie Weaver. No, it turns out it was a bit of a queen.

Yeah, absolutely. And after you graduated, was it politics and economics you did? Economics and Politics and Politics. Yeah. So you must have been fairly academic to do a degree like that. Yeah. Yeah, both my kids have done the same degree, funnily enough. Yeah, weirdly, yeah.

You had kind of, you wanted to be a lawyer initially, didn't you? And then your interest shifted to journalism and broadcasting. Yeah, I wanted to do law, so... Do you know, I can really see you as a lawyer? Yeah, I really can. Oh, good. Like, who was the one that represented Paul McCartney, Fiona Shackleton? Oh, yes.

The one who had the water poured over her? Yeah, she was a ball breaker. I can see you. I taught at you. Good, I put it to you. No, actually, I wouldn't be very good at it. Because what I did learn, because in my first year at uni, I did constitutional law and I did another law course as well.

And the attention to detail that you need to be a lawyer is off the scale. And actually doing that course for a year, I thought this is not for me. Because although I would like to think it is I am a big picture person and I know that about myself, I'm quite creative, I'm quite good at ideas and moving things along, but somebody else has to do the absolute detail because I get bored. And I think that is why I'm kind of suited to the job that I do

because it's about, let's get it done and you've got a deadline and then you move on to the next thing. Whereas if you were on a court case, some court cases can go on for months and years and you have to stick at it, I'd be bored, I'll be off. Next project. That's what because my first sort of real television job was news so regional news for central television And that was in Birmingham and the great thing about that was you know you go to work we had such leisurely hours at a four day week we're in at half nine in the morning

I loved it You go in a half nine blank sheet You do whatever you get assigned a story you do your story blah blah blah blah blah blah Six o'clock six 30 the news goes out boom there's nothing else you can do till nine 30 the next day I love that. And you, one of the first things you did, and I'm still so impressed by this, was you wrote to Margaret Thatcher and asked if you could interview her, and you did. What age was that? 24 or something?

I've seen the video. Oh, my God, the voice. You're going to talk about the voice, aren't you? Yeah, I'm sorry. Anyway, so I wanted to impress my boss, and so how am I going to impress my boss? And at that time, it was 4% of MPs in the House of Commons were women. and there was all sorts of different groups that were trying to encourage women into politics

and you know there was a real sort of drive it was when Edwina Curry was coming through and everything and so it was a discussion point at the time and I thought well who else are you going to get but the then Prime Minister so I wrote to her press secretary to Sir Bernard Inham of course yeah

and then got this letter back I think you couldn't believe it came I could not believe it. I really couldn't believe it. And so, yes, you've got an hour with Margaret Thatcher at 10 Downing Street on such and such a day. And how old were you? 24, I think. And your bosses must have, their jaws must have hit the floor.

I know, I know, I know. It was quite a thing. It was quite a thing. It was a terrible interview. I mean, it was a shocking, terrible interview. I'm ashamed of it. Because I was completely, I was like a lamb to the slaughter. You know, I mean, my politics are not the same as Margaret Thatcher's.

And at that time, I was still like the remnants of a lefty student. Then on the way there, I was, well, I'm going to say this and I'm going to say that, and I'm going to say the next thing. And those were the days that you could get up 10 Downing Street. So we walked up 10 Downing Street after it had to stop the taxi to be nearly sick. I was so nervous, so nervous. And we got my shit together, walked up 10 Downing Street, knocked on the door. door and you know it was like it's Margaret in there and everything and she was behind the door

and so she kind of ushered me in and I'll never forget this because I think it was such a clever thing for her to do and she was quite small she was shorter than me and she started to sort of brush fluff off my shoulders and straighten my collar in a very sort of granny type fashion And I look back on that now and I think that was great psychology because any bluster that I did have completely disappeared because she was like my granny all of a sudden Granny slash Prime Minister

and she was very nice to me and she showed me around and showed me out onto Horse Guards Parade and all the rest of it. I was putty in her hands after that and it was an hour's interview and I think I asked three questions and the rest of my contribution was uh-huh uh-huh they're sort of like nervous

how fascinating and you're so right the straightening you up as it were it's also an interesting status game because it's... completely you're a little girl I think she actually said something like that not these exact words but it was kind of like

you know you don't want your mum to see you on the telly with you know fluff on your jumper or something You know, it was that kind of kindly. You know, it was very kindly. She wasn't, you know, like condescending with it. But it established the power dynamic in a really sort of subtle but effective way. And I don't know whether she would do that consciously or not. I think that's just the way she treated the world.

I mean, I suspect if, you know, the world changed and Donald Tump turned up at her door, she'd probably do the same thing. She'd probably just infantilise him. Well, he's done that himself already. You don't need to, but you know what I mean. How fascinating and how telling about you that that takes balls to write that letters from Margaret Thatcher? Eh, does it?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't know many people who would write, even in their 40s, let alone their 20s. Well, nothing to lose, so is there? I mean, they could only come back and say no. right but there you go that's your attitude and not everyone has

that attitude they say what I have to lose how I'm multiplying what will people think so that tells me that's not an issue for you no I don't think yeah I mean no I don't think it is I mean my dear old dad always used to say

to me never be afraid to ask a stupid question and actually going on to be a journalist I think it was a very good piece of advice you know because I think it's maybe different now but there was a time that I thought a lot of interviewers got very sort of tied up in presenting themselves as terribly clever

and a little bit of it was performative I think that has changed but I mean obviously at that stage I was very into news and politics and all the rest of it and there was some big beasts in that kind of space and they were clever dicks a lot of the time and it was about showing how smart they were

whereas our job is to try and communicate a message to a very broad audience. It's not to show people how clever we are, you know? And I really sort of reacted against that. And so to that extent, I thought, well, to hell with that. My dad always said, ask a stupid question. And it's never a stupid question, but it can often be a basic question, you know?

And I think, even now I look at interviewers sometimes who get into jousting with, particularly we're now in a world when we do interviews that it's very adversarial. isn't it? And what is your audience learning from that? Not a lot. All they hear is blah blah blah blah blah blah sorry Raymond and I don't think that's our job. You know, that makes it about us. It shouldn't be about us. It should be about the audience. And shortly after Margaret Thatcher Gate, where you did put on, it's about a bit of an accent. You're not kidding.

I know, I know. You just lost a bit of your Scottishness, didn't you? Which maybe there was pressure a bit. No, I went terribly posh. I was talking like this. It was quite incredible. There is no way that anyone possibly recognised me and realised that I came from a small town in Grangemirene,

called Grangemiles in Scotland. Because nobody there spoke like that, but I did. You also reported on Lockerbie And I was actually Really moved to tears when I have heard you talk about it Because it just struck me that You were sort of one of the first people on the scene, reporters Yeah, by accident, but yes I was

There's this really harrowing story you tell about going there And obviously there's presumably just It's devastation everywhere. And then you look in this field and you think it's sheep, but it's not sheep, is it? No, it was bodies that had come down in Tundergarth. I mean, there were particular areas where either wreckage or bodies had fallen.

And that was an area just outside the village of Lockerbie, a field. And it was a very clear night that night. You know, a beautiful night, a bit icy, with a nice clear moon. and yeah you looked across the field and just saw those whiteish mounds and yeah it was bodies where they had fallen

do you think you've got because we didn't understand about that then Kay I imagine this happens a lot with you know people reporting on tragedies and foreign correspondents do you think you do get a form of PTSD after something like that I think some people do but I genuinely don't think I did

you know and people have asked me that obviously but and so I've asked myself that I genuinely don't think I did it was such a surreal experience you know I mean I don't I don't want to be disrespectful by saying a Hollywood disaster movie because you know it was such a terrible terrible thing to happen but your brain just doesn't it's so outside your experience that I don't know whether or not your brain puts in a filter to protect you almost. You know, the one actually that kind of got me more than that, and as I say, I don't have PTSD,

but was a couple of days afterwards. And there was an area, it was a very Scottish sort of set up, council houses in a square with a patch of green in the middle where the kids would play. You'll see it in a million Scottish towns. and part of the wreckage had fallen on a group of houses there and so the investigators obviously they have to sort of basically recreate the plane

and then send it all off to the accident investigators I think it was in Farnham and so in order to do this the seating they had laid out on this sort of patch of green in order So one A, B, C, D, 2 B, A, B, C, D, as if you were seeing the plane. And then in clear plastic bags, kids' drawing books, Walkmans, as it was at the time, cassettes, books, puzzle books, cardigans, shoes, blah, blah, blah, all the sort of personal effects of the people. And that is a very vivid memory.

you know and I remember that being really I mean we bring everything back to ourselves don't we sadly and you think I've been on that plane I've been off to Turkey on my holiday yeah I would have then you think oh my God you know because that was more real than forgive me the bodies in the field I understand that you know or the crater or whatever it's the I know this sounds a weird thing to relate it to but when my sister died I remember I put her jacket on because you do weird things don't you and it was after we're in the hospital and I put her coat on and I put my hand in the pocket and there was a hair bubble and a Starbucks receipt and it was those things that got me and I kept those things and I thought why have I kept those things and I realised it was just

fragments of an ordinary day and then everything stopped being ordinary and went extraordinary and what you've described, I understand why that will have hit you because it's the very ordinariness of it that's so poignant. It's actually making me cry. How long did you keep those things for? I still got them.

You still got them? Yeah. I've still got them and it's lovely. It's like, I mean it's not lovely, you know, what happened, but there's something about the reminder of that kind of humanity, you know, in it. Yeah. What an extraordinary thing? things that witness and experience there.

Yeah. Yeah, it was, but you've always got to be careful, haven't you? Because you were only an observer. Yeah. And also I say extraordinary. I don't feel comfortable with that choice of words. What a profound thing, I suppose. Yes, it was.

Yeah, it really, it really was. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our children, it'll be out on Thursday so whatever you do don't miss it and remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week