Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Kevin McCloud (Part Two)

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

We’re at Goodwood this week with the brilliant Kevin McCloud! Kevin tells us about how a Channel 4 commissioner initially didn’t think he was the right presenter for Grand Designs, how he feels about having uncomfortable conversations on the show, and whether he makes a habit of judging other people’s homes. Grand Designs celebrated its 25th year in 2024. You can watch every episode on Channel 4!Follow @Kevin.mccloud1 on Instagram Follow @goodwoofdogs on InstagramFollow @goodwood on InstagramGoodwoof will be taking place on Saturday 17th and Sunday 18th May 2025. Early bird tickets are available now here!  Kevin will be appearing at the event as part of Barkitecture. Thank you to The Goodwood Hotel for kindly hosting us in one of their lovely dog-friendly rooms during our trip to East Sussex. The Hotel has 12 dog-friendly rooms. Dogs are provided with a bed, bowls, bags and treats.The Kennels is the clubhouse for all of Goodwood Estate's members, a home away from home for those looking to relax and enjoy superb food in stylish surroundings.Dogs are welcome at The Kennels and can also join as members with a Kennels' Dog Membership. Dog members receive a personalised dog bowl and their membership helps support the work of The Kennels' chosen charity, Hounds for Heroes. Walking the Dog was given special access to the Goodwood Estate, exploring The Kennels, where Goodwoof is held. There are a number of permissive paths across the Estate – further details can be found here. We ask that dogs are kindly kept on a lead when walking on the Estate.Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with Kevin McLeod at the glorious Goodwood Estate. Do go back and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already. And if you want to find out more info about Goodwood and the Goodworth Dog Festival, it's all in the description of this episode. I'd also love it if you gave us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Kevin and Raywe. Tell me how you ended up moving into ground designs, because we need to discuss this before.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I've done a bit of telly. you know, because it's like teaching in that sense. You're in front of the camera. No. I've got plenty of our directors who still say to me, stop, cut. No, Kevin, can you get it again? Just make it half the length.

And then they say that three more times. You know that you've done to about 16th. So telly becomes in the end an exercise in rather like writing copy from tabloid newspapers. You've got to try and keep the intelligence of what you're saying, but get it really squeezed down. Do you know, I think that's why comedians are starting to, someone realized in the 90s, why comedians have moved into TV and radio, is that what comics specialize in is communicating quite complex ideas in a very succinct way.

Yeah, because comedy is a great way of doing it. You have to get it down to five words. You know, you can't. And so I think, someone almost realized, oh, yeah, comics can do this. They do this anyway. This is a muscle they've exercised their whole life. Exactly. But you are such a great.

communicator and I love watching you. Those closest to me will say I'm unable to communicate anything. Come on. I mean that's the thing about the difference between the professional circumstance and the real world. Like you know say to a teacher, try and have a conversation with a teacher in a palm he'll go on for four hours because they need the discipline of the classroom, of the bell. Are you better then at communicating with people you don't know? Yeah. I know you. I know you. I know you. I know your type.

There's nothing at stake, Kevin, that's why. That's a good question. It's a better way of putting it than saying that, you know, there's everything at stake. I think, well, I mean, you know, you must find the same. You can do this podcast and you can be you. You can be a version of you. I can be much more direct. Yes.

I can confront people in a way that I never would. Yeah. You know, a friend. I would never say things to a friend. You know, you can use that amazing magical question, which is one word, which is why. Grand Designs, did that come about, you know, I know you did a show called Homefront, didn't you? And it feels like, yeah. It was a sort of gradual move into it. Yeah, it was, yeah. Because you had this passion for architecture and design, and you had your own company for a while, making lighting. One of my favourite facts about you is that you were partly responsible,

You designed the ceiling of Harrod's Foothall. Yeah, I didn't where you drag the stuff up from. Yeah, I did. Come on. I am not more people talking about this. Because it's irrelevant. It's not. Well, also, to be fair, in telly, anything you did before television is like AD and BC, right?

It's like BT. Oh, yeah. Before television. Yeah. Who cares? Who cares? Who cares? Who cares what you did?

I care because the Harrod's Foothall. And you did you work on the Dorchester? Yeah, we did. I did a lot of... Because there Oliver Messel Suites there, right. It is, yeah. It's so beautiful. I love that.

Yeah. A friend of mine had her wedding reception there. It was so lovely, yeah. He was, we should say, in case anyone doesn't know, because he was a theatrical... Designer. Yeah. In the 1920s and 30s, Oliver Messel, yeah.

And hugely influential, and I think we did quite a bit of work with Coward. How amazing. I think what I like about your story is that you were really genuinely an expert. You know, and you had this, you'd earned your design jack of all trades. Are you quite self-deprecating? Tricky to answer, isn't it? No. That was a trick question.

Missile, yeah, great designer. Did you feel nervous about going into Telly, Kevin, or did you know you'd be good in it? I knew already I was quite good at it. And Daisy Goodwin, who was an amazing producer. Yeah. Who did Homefront and watched on all. kinds of amazing stuff and she she'd got me to do various things and asked me back and I'd originally gone to talk I think about lighting but um she said you should you know come along

and she'd got this idea pitched with channel four there's a great story where she and peter fincham who is her boss at talk back and Peter later became a controller at the BBC he was and he's amazingly influential in television and Peter and she went to see a commissioning editor at channel 4 who looked at the taster tape that we'd done and said well it's not much of a format this for grand design yeah yeah it's not much of a format i don't like the title and the presenter isn't right for channel 4 and maybe that's all still true but it we've stayed and stuck but it was a lovely way to begin and uh and nobody thought we would still be here in two years later let alone 25 you know

Although I think what's interesting is that form is temporary class as permanent as they say. And I think you're an example of someone because you know your subject so thoroughly inside out. And I think also I always felt when I started watching you on Grand Designs, you weren't trying to be anyone else. And I think what sometimes happens and I get it with presenting is you see people coming on and they feel like a little bit of they're doing an impression of every other presenter I've seen. Because you were very unique. It's a real disease, isn't it? I was listening to a program last night on the radio, and I thought, oh, God, this presenter who's young and dynamic

is sounding like somebody from the 1960s. Yeah. And why, you know, and they certainly don't, and I couldn't figure out their personality. I'm quite fascinated by this individual, because I want to know exactly who they are, and I can't figure it out. Well, you sound like you.

So what's interesting about that is I think, oh, only Kevin would say this, you know, and I'm interesting. When you do grand designs, you have to be very direct and you are with these people. And I sometimes think when you'll go in, which do you, Kevin, and you'll say, you do realize this is going to cost about double that. Oh, no, I feel sick. Don't tell them the truth. Are you comfortable with those conversations? Yeah, I didn't used to be.

When I first started, I was much more polite than I think. But it's because I think the people that one's dealing with are generally It's like they've joined a cult right So their eyes have glazed over and you can ask them anything You say it's so true and you could be really inappropriate with them and they would they just laugh and you could say extraordinary rude intrusive offensive things about them and their family, their dogs, their lives, and they'd laugh. Say, no, no, that's not true. Because we're going to come in on budget. We're going to do this

thing. It's going to be just magical. And there is that. You could tell them all the money was going to go towards the NHS. On the side of a bus. You could put it. No, I know what you mean. It is the cult of belief, isn't it? That you can see that there's a very good analogy. It's when you have a friend who becomes obsessed with someone and they become, I always say they become a bit like the ancient mariner with a constant need to tell their tale. You know, it's the obsession. Yeah, yeah. And you see that with these people that, well, there was one show you did which people took all the saddest ever episode. Oh yes. And that's the Devon Lighthouse. Ed and Hazel. It sums up what's so brilliant about that show because it was all of human life was in that. Indeed. So, wasn't it? It was, every major

every major emotion most of the seven deadly sins yeah it was icarus it was you know the fact that and then their relationship split and you were that must have been tough that you witnessed that how long was that journey

look from my point of view is I get in a car go down to the middle of nowhere sit on the cliff in the howling wind and look at a building on which nothing had happened and I say to my director show why are we here And and and and but then I'd meet Ed and this is the thing the buildings aren't relevant.

The stories, the human stories are what it's sort of about and and I love the quote from Richard Osmond who said on his podcast that the thing about grand designs is the arc is the same you know you know so roughly where you're going to be and as Daisy has said you know you end up with a building or a divorce. Richard pointed out if you want to understand where the the friction comes and where the difficulty lies in grand designs, look at the date stamps in the film, just see how long it's taken to get there. You know, it could be six years or in Ed's case 12, you know, or 11. And yes, that tells you everything. Yeah, and with Ed's film, um, and of course, you get to know these people really, really well and he's become a friend. So with Ed's film, we end with the first program we make. It's calamity and it's about overreaching and hubris and as you say, it's the Icarus story.

There are only seven stories. Downfall is one of them. And then we go back for the revisit like two years later and he's managed to finish the project with borrowed money and the house isn't really his anymore but he tried to sell it and clear the decks and everything. And it becomes something else. It becomes a film about remorse and about openness and about humility. and learning and self-knowledge and Ed becomes this hero. So his reputation is rehabilitated. I like this because this is the advantage of filming over such a long time

is that the story can change. Yeah. But you're unusual in that you have that facility because you're able to, you know, I feel with TV, because your show is so successful, it's one of the white rhino shows, if you like. Not too near extinction I hope Not no extinction But what I mean by that is rare and valued

And so highly prized And I feel that Because of that You know if you say Well this is going to take six years You're going to have to stick with us Whereas my dad made documentaries And he was at documentary features

At the BBC and they would spend years What was his docoes about? Oh well he did loads He worked on a series called 40 Minutes for a long time. Yeah. He would spend years, I mean years. And he always said to me, when you make documentaries, he said, you have a responsibility to describe the entire orchard.

You cannot just show the exotic fruit. And I always remembered the hat. So it's about, I feel with your show, that's exactly what that does. Because of those production values, because of the money spent on it, because of the patience, crucially, that's why it's great. TV, not just good TV. That's an interesting point you make. I think that's to do with simply the culture of, because it's been going for 25, 30 years, that we started 27 years ago. Yeah. That we came out of that world where, yeah, you had and found great directors who wanted to tell the story. So we never had, we never really had a script. And this is down to John Silver, my first producer, who invented the word, processed the phrase, processed documentary. The idea that you use the process, hammering of nails into bits of wood, as a means of telling a story. And the story is a true one.

And of course, in the edit, you've got 200, 300 hours of footage. And so the story you tell could be any one of maybe 50 stories. But the one you're telling is the one that you believe is the right narrative arc. And the most important thing for us, and it comes back to the orchard point you make, is that our contributors, our self-builders, be able to sit down and watch the film and say, yeah, that was it. That was us. That was my story. That was my story. And it doesn't matter if it's that story or another, which is slightly different. Do you ever, because I think I have a feel for your personal taste aesthetically. Everyone feels they know what Kevin likes.

That's really interesting. But, I'm never sure that I do know what I like. I mean, I feel, I know when you secretly like it and when you're thinking, well, it's not my taste. Yeah, yeah. I think you're quite good at concealing. I think that's the best thing, though. I think the good thing is that we all know that we secretly know what Kevin likes. But isn't it better to...

Do you know what I mean? It's like you get a script. So Tully, and you'll know this from your... From broadcasting. Is that you get a script through or something in it. And it's full of hyperbole. Yeah. And that's in order to sell the idea to somebody in an office.

Because Tully used to be about this great idea. And the commissioning over say, I believe in you. Go and do it. And now it's like, me the A4. How many, you know, I want to see 500 words on this. And I want to know what the outcome is. And our answer to that is well, we don't know. So in that sense, it's very, very old-fashioned. I come back to this point that we are, we do it quite respectfully and in a very old-fashioned

way. And the hyperbole, I just strike through. So I think it's a great thing to be able to say, and it's all about delivery of this, isn't it? There's quite a big problem here, meaning the house has just fallen over right now anybody anybody else you can spot a producer's script a mile off which says you know there's a desperate uphill struggle a very real danger what you know this is yeah is it a daring audacious idea it's quite good quite a big problem here is great that means this is a disaster they're about to split up they're going bankrupt yeah what's another the Kevinism. Let's wait and see. And so, and then, and then, I don't mind, I mean, you can go on.

But the, what really interests me is how you get people to think. Yeah. And if you just, if you're selling an idea and if you're just hammering home, idea after idea with more and more emphasis, then you've, I think you've lost, you haven't lost the viewer. You're pulling them in, you're giving them kind of dopamine hits, really, as opposed to igniting their imagination, which seems to me to be, if you look back at our forebears, listen, mate, when you were a wolf, right,

and you were visiting humans, right? There would be a campfire, and there would be a bunch of humans, and there would be somebody in the middle, an old bloke like me, telling a story, and all the kids would be looking into the flames, seeing the pictures of the story. And Desmond would be out there. the back and please let me in and he's here now he's with us and that's a glorious thing in our

evolution as much as his Raymond you're here with us we love you so I just call him Desmond yeah but I quite likes it do you know what I thought as you said Desmond I thought if I got another dog right you call him Desmond I'm so sorry I'm so sorry Raymond I did something very middle class there didn't I I didn't say oh actually he's called Raymond what I didn't say oh actually he's called Raymond what I did you notice that? You waited for me to realise. I then mentioned his name. Some might say it was passive aggressive what I did.

Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. I then said, yes, Raymond. Yeah, I'm passive aggressive. It's all bollocks, isn't it really? Are you quite direct? No, I can be quite passive aggressive. But then I'm told very simply, that just means one thing, aggressive. It's true, isn't it?

It's either aggressive or not. Passive aggressive is quite a strange term, I find. If you're upset with someone, Kevin, how does that manifest itself? I don't speak to them. Do you ghost people? No, I void people if I'm upset with them. Do you ghost them?

It's a really hard one. It's a really hard one. It's all my life, I've always thought, you know, if you're not entirely confident about your where you are in life, you worry all the time that it's your fault. And you actually can never get even to the point of even reasoning your way through the argument. No. Do you have that problem? Oh, 100%. I avoid, I ghost people. And I'm really ashamed that I do that, but I do it because I'm frightened that they're angry with me.

I'm getting better at confrontation, but I think it's slightly a female thing as well, that people pleasing. So if someone suggests an idea, I really don't want to do. I don't just say, I spent my whole life, not just saying, oh, okay. I go, I love that. I remember an incident when I was seven and a very posh friend of Oz and the parents invited me around. I said, do you like liver? I said, I love liver. It's my favourite food. We eat it all the time. She presented me with the liver and they were so posh these people. Her dad was chairman of BP oil. I never forgot that because it was like I knew what I was doing was bad because these people were very.

Because they were into petrochemicals. No, because I felt they were posh and I was frightened of them because we were artsy and a bit. Yeah, yeah. I remember sitting down and she gave me, she said, here's the liver. And I started going like that and I was retching because I never had it. She went, you lied to me, Emily. You said.

She called you out. Yeah. She said, you said liver was one of your favourite things and you've lied. And do you know what, Kevin, from that day on, I thought, yeah, I have and I'm just going to stick with this. This is the only thing. But I try. I'm trying to get better.

Do you lie about stuff? that's a very good question and I try not to but there are always people's feelings to seek into consideration as well and my problem is I don't I'm too direct are you I'm a bit too honest and so I is that the math-y sort of side maybe it's a nerdy thing yeah so somebody says to me how do I look and right now that is that is a terrible terrible question and I can say to any man here listening never answer that question except by lying. Just use the word fabulous. That's it. It's all I can say because you there are moments in your life where you realise you're not really being asked for

your opinion, you're being asked to support somebody. Have you learnt that now? Yeah, I'm 65 and I learnt it probably in the last year. Also, have you learnt that we don't want a solution? about something. No, that's the other thing. No, because I'm totally solutions based. I'm pure process. My whole life. Don't care what the outcome is. I just want to get the process right. Yeah. So I learned this amazing thing, because isn't the internet fabulous for all of this, you know, for learning how to deal with people around you? This is a very important question. We should all ask those of us. If you're facing a wall of sound and you're, you know, you see the temperature rising, you feel the emotions, you know, kind of getting kind of out of control,

you can say to somebody, do you want me to do something about this or do you want to a hug? And that choice question is magical because usually they'll say a hug. And then you goes, I'm not here to provide solutions. I love that. I just want you to work a bit on how you say the do you want to hug bit. So how you could say, instead of saying, or do you want a No, I mean, I was delivering that for effect. No, you would say it much more empathetically. I think you're a good friend, Kevin. I don't know.

Okay. I really don't know. I think you would be. I'd definitely call you a good phone a friend on Millionaire. Yeah, just because I've got the facts. You know everything. Battle of Lepanto. Yes, I know that.

Goodwood, can I ask you, what sort of period? It's not like Palladian or something, is it? What period would you say? Well, the house has, the main house has a long history. Okay. So it's sort of dating about 500 years, I think. But the bulk of what you see is late 18th century into regency, early 19th century. And those kennels are those sort of regency?

They're a little earlier. So they're 18th century. they're more Palladian actually. I was going to say they look absolutely beautiful yeah the kennels that the architects design for architecture which you're the judge of I am the sort of you're one of the judges I call myself the curator which is a really posh word because I don't curate really anything but what we have is we we had this round where we and we're doing it today so I'm here to meet Patricia who's one of the directors do you think we can get a sneak preview of the kennels because the kennels we saw last time I was quite blown away by

And that's so... That is the amazing thing, right? It is the amazing thing. So the judging process sort of happens on the day and we get a few doggy people. Bill Bailey, for example, who's wonderful. And we've had the Irish Guards regimental mascot, Seamus, who's a wonderful wolfhound.

He came to judge. But we're also, of course, during the day, picking up with antennae, picking up the kind of doggy feelings in the room or in the tent. We're seeing how many dogs go and sit in the kennel. Do you think you'll make it up? Come on Desmond. Come on Desmond. He's got, I like Desmond. You could be, give you a middle name mate. Raymond Desmond. And Rolls Royce won last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's just, can I just kind of just for the mechanics?

Yeah, come on, let's do it. Just run through what I happen. So we invite architects. We write to them all in the autumn and they submit their ideas before Christmas, just before Christmas, around Christmas. And then we we select a short list. and we have a student category and we display the finished kennels and the architects are amazing who we work with so they'll they've got like pennies for their budgets but they always put much more time and money and resources into the project

to make a really beautiful object and they can be designers as much as architects it's the name of the competition it's called Barthitecture very first year right Goodworth Barth you weren't shying away from a pun. We banned puns after three weeks. We said no more. And so we get to the event in May,

May the 18th. And so the judges come on the Sunday and we look around and the thousands of people here. And the best thing about it is not, actually two amazing things. One is the fact that the architects give everything to this and produce these fantastic prototypes, which explore relationships between human beings and animals, which is fantastic. and intriguing. It's all done for a charitable cause, isn't it? Yeah, so last year there's a giant dog charity and this year Wild at Heart

and every year it's a different charity. Look, it's two years old now. So this will be our third year. So far we've raised £60,000. It's incredible. So people come and bid in the tent for the kennels at the end of the Sunday afternoon as a proper auction and it's a joy.

It's interesting because obviously you've spent your life I don't want to say judging because you don't strike me, having spent the last hour, which I have to say, I've really enjoyed. I've saved the best for you, though, that's why. I've been preparing for this. You don't strike me as a dodgy person? No, I'm not. I get quite upset when people say to me, I'd love to have you around, but we're worried what you'll say about the curtains. Do people say that to you? Once or twice a haven't. I think that's a really, it's really upsetting because I'm not, you know, I mean, it's like saying to an actuary.

Come round, but please, you know, I'm worried. that you're going to ask me the cost of everything. It's got nothing to do with friendship or nothing to do with a good time. And I'm quite interested in those things. And I'm not interested in forming judgments. I'm quite interested in getting people to think and getting people to think beyond the quick judgment,

which is a really hard thing to do in this age because of Insta and all these other super fast media, which are the opposite of what I do, which is very slow television, which takes 10 years to make. But that's why it's so good, you know. But I also think it's funny because this interior's porn that we get, you know, we've become so used to now, which is live love, love, crush velvet sofa,

you know, everyone's house kind of is a bit homogenised and looks at it. It's how the internet works. You're right, because it's all for like. So it's like if I keep doing what they're doing. But it's interesting that I suppose because I was raised in the kind of home, which was all eclectic. Everyone would have called my mother's home a mess now because it would, I would call it autobiographical, which is the best kind of house, isn't it?

It's the best kind of house. It's yours. And what's the point of making it look like everybody else is? What's the point of making it look like a showroom when you, I'm sure most shows would probably pay you to go and live in their window. Yeah. You know, so what's the, I don't. Do you think we've become a bit obsessed with our homes looking like hotels now? Yes.

I mean, the functionality of hotels is quite intriguing, isn't it? It's quite good. I was having a shave this morning in front of a, self-heated lit mirror that magnified the hair on my ear. I could shave it. But that's great, but really. You don't want to live like that? I was actually asked myself that question.

I said, do I'm like I'm bothered to run the wiring to install one of these or not really? Or shall I just go stay in a hotel once a couple of months? There was someone my famous who I won't know, I'll tell you often to I was talking to and he said, the thing is I don't get excited by hotels anymore. And I said, why? said because my house is so much nicer than any of them. Oh, uh, aren't you lucky? Well.

It'll make sense when I tell you who it is often. Yeah, yeah. It's either saying it's some really shit hotels or, or he's, he's spent too much money. But I thought that was sad. It is a little because there are hotels, they're not, they're figments, they're not real. Yeah. And, um, and also they're impersonal, they're not you. So I come back to this point about the long, the long, the long, journey and the long and the slow burn and the autobiography and the you know the amassing of I

mean people often say to me you know what's your house like and I say well that's first of all it's irrelevant because it's not it's like don't come around to my house because I'm worried what you say about the curtains it's irrelevant because my life my personal life has nothing to do with the television and people will disagree about that because again because of what's happening on the instant internet and but in truth my house has got you know I've got stuff that I've had since I was a student stuff from my mum. I've got stuff from IKEA. I've got stuff that I bought that I regret by. And it's still

got, you know, and then some nice things and then you sort of find your way, and you're always doing this, by the way, usually doing this, in collaboration with another human being. So again, it's quite offensive to say, what's your house like? It's not my house, it's our house. And certainly

if I'm not going to talk to you about my private life, I'm certainly not going to talk to you about my other half's private life and her taste. So, Yet, there is that, yeah, that creeping insidious nature. The great news here is that there's a whole generation of people coming through who actually have been bringing up on grand designs, among other things, who are in their teens and early 20s, who look at their parents demanding selfies,

saying, oh, so embarrassing, mum, please don't do that. And we're back to a world of all. Autograph books. Which I rather like. And I look back, my parents kept my old autograph books. And my parents were quite strict because they were sort of showbys and they were a bit like, don't ask people for autographs. We weren't allowed to me and my sister when we went to places. Because my dad always said, it was before we had this concept now, but it was the idea that it would make someone feel other. But I was allowed to get Kenneth Williams and I'm really proud of that, Kevin. We're going to have to let you go soon because you have a whole day ahead of you with, are you going to see the barquee

Kennells for the first time. Yeah, I'm going to see the entries for the first time today, yes. And what, can you just tell me? What are you looking for that differs from what you'd be looking for if you were judging a house? That's a really good question. I think you're always looking for solutions. And you're looking not just for solutions, but solutions are problems you hadn't thought

of. So this year the brief is from nature for nature, which is very broad. It's about the relationship with the natural world and how dogs can act as mediators in that and also how we might better understand them as a species. Come on, then. Come on, Raymond. Come on, Desmond.

Mondo. Raymond, come on. Come on, Raymond. They're too young to remember Jimmy Young and his... Oh, I know, because my dad would listen to that. Jimmy Young. Yeah. Come on.

Come on, Raymondo. So I'm looking for somebody who says who interprets the brief and says actually it's thrown up this question in our design practice and we've interrogated, the architects have that word interrogate. We've interrogated the question and we've come up with a solution. You go, oh, that's interesting. That's really intriguing. And if anything, of course, if there's a curatorial role here, it isn't about, Come on, Ray. It's taking the larger view.

So it's about putting together an exhibition where ideas aren't repeated and where you're not repeating ideas from last year. So you're showing people new stuff, new ideas, new, interesting questions and solutions and answers. Well, I can't wait to see the entries. And I have to say, Kevin. Oh, is that Raymond? That doesn't look like Raymond. Kevin. It's not me. Well, we should say, we've just seen a poo.

And I'm going to say my dogs aren't that big. They're tiny. These are quite small. Oh, Kevin, please. What's he eaten? I tell you what he eats. He only eats James Middleton's dog food now. Because we interviewed James Middleton, who has his own dog food brand.

And Raymond likes the finer things in life. Yeah. So he'll only eat. That's why he loves Goodwood. Yeah, well, James was here last year. This is amazing dogs. Yeah. He was here, wasn't he?

He was so sweet. Do you know, I have so loved chatting to you, Kevin. I like you even more than I thought I would like, here. Well, I really know, really loved it. Thank you. You're very good at wheedling stuff out of people, I have to say. That's a great, it's a great art. Is it?

Yeah, because, well, you'll know, having been interviewed, how uncomfortable it can make you feel. And secondly, how so very often you find yourself answering exactly the same question with the same answer. And so I've come away from this learning a little bit more about myself. Really? Yeah. What do you think you've learned?

You should start offering therapy. I'll sign up. Would you have it? I would. With you, yeah, I'd come and I think you'd be very good at it. So this has ended with Kevin McLeod suggesting I've become a therapist. I have had a lot of therapy though, that's why. That's very good to hear.

And I found it very useful. life-changing, in fact. I think therapy and meds combined can be really, really effective. It's the dream team. A bit like us, I like to think. You and Raymond. Kevin, thank you so much. I forgot there are three of us here, yes.

There are three of us in this relationship. I've loved meeting you, and I thank you so much for the treat of coming to Goodwood. Bless you. Thank you so much, and thank you for coming to talk about architecture. And you've got to go and judge bar architecture now, so we should let you go. Can I, are you a hugger? Are you comfortable with a hug? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not like my grandfather. Come on, bring it in. I'm a big hugger, yeah, I didn't used to be, but yes, there you go. When did you become a hugger?

Therapy and meds. Love it. So would you say goodbye to Raymond? Raymond, come here, boy. Ramondo, the can, the man is the cat. Picotissimo, Nero. A goodness evil. Bye, mate. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog.

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