Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Krishnan Guru-Murthy (Part Two)

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

We’re in Kew for the second part of our walk with the brilliant journalist and presenter of Channel 4 News - Krishnan Guru-Murthy and his Chihuahua, Chubby Chops! In this part of our chat - we talk about how it Krishnan’s job makes it necessary for him to be confrontational and how he feels about being liked. He also tells us about his love story with his wife Lisa, and what his kids make of his job.You can watch Ways To Change the World on YouTube here - or you can find it on all podcast platforms. Follow @krishgm on Instagram  See more of Krishnan’s work on Channel 4 News hereFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with Krishna Guru Murthy. Do go back and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already and do, by the way, catch Krishnan's brilliant Channel 4 News podcast, Ways to Change the World because it's a fascinating listen. I'd also love it if you gave us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Krishnan and Chubby Chops and Rui-Way. To do your job, you have to be quite confrontational. Yeah.

Don't you? And, well, well, you don't have to be. I suppose I've chosen to be. What I would say is you have to not fear conflict. Yeah. Have you always been like that? Yes. Yeah, I was always sort of a cocky kid, I suppose.

And the teachers would accuse me of being cheeky or arrogant. And I think that's what debating did, because debating taught me to argue as a kid. And so I would argue with everyone, and pretty fearlessly, and did debating competitions. And that's how I got my job in TV. And my first job in TV was a show in which kids were actively encouraged to ask cheeky, rude questions of politicians and public figures. What was there?

It wasn't open to questions. I remember, yeah. And so it would be a sort of a bear pit of 50 or 60 kids asking really rude questions. And I was one of those kids. And then I took over the program as the presenter. So, yeah, you know, I was put on this path of like, you're here to ask impertinent questions. of people in power. And that's kind of what I've been doing ever since.

You mentioned Jeremy Paxman, or we mentioned him just now, and he came on this podcast with his dog Derek. Yeah. One of the greatest moments of my life is hearing Jeremy Baxman shout in the middle of Kensington Park Gardens. Derek, come here, you bloody idiot. But you know what was interesting, Christianan? I was a bit frightened of him.

Yeah. And then, of course, I met him, and he was adorable. He was an absolute pussycat. much like you. One thing that we were discussing was just how people get him wrong and make so many assumptions because I suppose they often see him

in his work mode, which is necessarily a combat situation, if you like. Yes. You know, he's always got to be combative, that's his job. Do you think that's true of you to a degree that people maybe might make assumptions about you

based on the fact that you have to be relentless and ferocious, journalistically, when they see you on TV? I'm sure, I'm sure, yes, that does happen. I mean, I think perhaps less so these days, because 10 years ago, I probably only had sort of one default gear in most people's minds, which was, you know, hard interviews, forensic questioning. And I think with John, I ended up playing that role, because John was the sort of, John was the

one who could range across interviews and be sensitive and could cry and could interview the victims and I would get the sort of the tough political interview or the accountability interview so I was sort of the hard bastard in that relationship and he was the one who could be a bit more touch and feeling and why was that do you think I think it probably came more naturally to me to be the hard-nosed one and I suppose so I filled that role and at the same time I suppose naturally as you get older you become a little bit more understanding and a little bit more sensitive and John was sort of good at those and you know he had some moments you know which were

very notable so I think 10 years ago yes you know people would probably have only ever seen me doing sort of rather hard-nosed aggressive interviews I think now things are a bit different and I do do a much bigger range of stuff and doing things like strictly and comedy shows shows a totally different side of you. So people get a different sense of who you are. I think, well, having, I'm an avid fan of your podcast, ways to change the world. Yeah.

I watch it to an almost worrying degree, if I'm honest. And I should say it's one of those shows that there's so much disposable stuff with podcasts now, whereas these are proper evergreen episodes, which I listened to ones from years ago. I've noticed that one minute you're interviewing Bernie Sanders about, you know, democracy. Then you'll chat to someone like, well... See, he's off.

Why's he gone? He thinks we're going home. No, we're not going home. We're going this way. Old Chubby. I was just going to pick you up. Old Chubby. Chubby literally just stopped and turned around.

Exactly. Chubby, you can't... Come on, we're not going yet. Do you know what I'm sensing here, Krishnan? Come on. Chubby knows his own mind. He's a bit of a KGM. He's a bit of a KGM.

He knows what he wants. No, I'm done now. Oh look, Krishna! I know, we've got to keep walking. We've got to keep walking, otherwise he's just going to go... No, I'm not coming. Okay, fine, no, he's given up. He gets it down.

You see, that was good parenting. Here's the difference. Krishnan had boundaries. What have I done? You picked him up. Anyway, where he used to change... We're looking at him. See, he's waiting to just turn around.

He's going... What are you going home? Have we had enough? And the trouble is, what I would want to do is go and put the lead on him to drag him along. Why wouldn't you then? But if I go anywhere near him, he will scarper.

Oh yeah. We'll start heading home. We don't want that. But anyway, your podcast, I've noticed, for example, there was a really heartbreakingly moving interview you did with Rob Delaney. Yes. Who tragically lost his little boy, didn't he? And I thought that was really interesting how you are able to make that shift.

Because that's a very different interview, isn't it? Yeah. To say Michael Heseltine. I thought, oh, he's got both gears. Well, that's what podcast did. I mean, that that podcast was deliberately designed for me to say, I want to do a different kind of interview here. So on the news, my job is basically to confront pretty much every answer.

And to pick holes in whatever people are saying and say, and challenge it. But ways to change the world was, you know, where I sort of said, I actually want to do interviews where I just go with it. I may not agree with it and my instinct might be to challenge. But actually, sometimes it's better just to go, okay, let's go with that thought, let's see where it goes. And so it's a very different kind of interview. And you get different kinds of people on as a result.

I mean, I think when we first started it, we thought it would be politicians and thinkers that we did and that we would do that, you know, we would do a sort of a softer, more thoughtful kind of interview with them. But to be honest, we quickly found that they're not the most interesting for that kind of interview. And the more interesting people are people with ideas and writers and thinkers and musicians and artists. So that's what we've ended up focusing on. Yeah. Well, it's an absolutely brilliant series. And it gives you insight into people. Although someone like Michael Heseltine, I definitely saw a different side to him. Looking at that interview, and I appreciate you can't express any political beliefs either way, but I can.

And he's not someone, I wouldn't have voted for his party, but I realised what a thoughtful kind of intellectual he was. Yeah. It was really interesting. I thought, oh, okay, he's an interesting man, isn't he? Because he's sort of anti-Brexit, and he was vehemently anti-Poltax. And... Varian's trees. Yeah.

And do you know what? I came away and I thought, it's very important getting those well-rounded profiles like that. You think, well, it's possible not to agree with someone's political ideology, but to think, what an impressive man. Yeah. Are you ever frightened, Krishnan? I don't get frightened of interviews. I can't watch things like that. Like, when you say to Donald Trump, what do you say to people who have called you a billionaire bully? I actually have to turn away. I get so frightened. No, I mean, because that whole arena is it's not a normal conversation.

So it's not how you would treat people in real life. It's an interview. There's nothing to be afraid of. I'm doing a job. They're doing a job. It's not two people meeting and having a chat. Yeah, but some people can't make that shift, Krishnan, because you're still a human being, talking to another human being

and a very, very powerful, frightening. human being and you don't seem frightened. Why is that? Because my job is to hold them to account and to ask the questions other people might not. That is the role of our program and has been historically and so you kind of carry the weight of that history and the responsibility of your job. You know, there are very few people who get to do what I get to do so you can't make a mess of it. You've got to you've got to not be scared and just get stuck in. and ask the questions that people want asked. So no, I never get scared of an interview situation.

I mean, obviously I do get scared of life situations. You know, we go to a lot of war zones, a lot of dangerous places. And so, yes, you know, you're going to be cautious and a bit anxious in those sorts of settings about what you're doing and where you're going and a bit nervous about those things. So those things make me more nervous than anyone I'm going to meet or interview. I don't think there's anyone.

You'll get nervous about an interview with somebody very big and powerful, but you're not going to be scared. Really? What's the worst thing that can happen? Someone will shout at you? Yeah. Does that not frighten you? No.

No, I mean, I sort of shout back. No, I mean, there are some places actually, obviously, where you know, you might get arrested or something. But that's very, very few and far between. and in that kind of setting you're going to be you're going to be quite careful about what you're trying to get out of the interview. You have no issues with people pleasing, do you? No, I mean, you can't do my job and want to be liked. It's not, I mean, well, you can actually.

In fact, John did it very well because John, you know, was loved by lost people. But I've always taken a slightly different view of that, no, it's not my job to be liked. I didn't come into this to be popular. you've got to ask the difficult question and some people won't like that. You know, some people you're interviewing won't like that and some people who are watching it won't like it. But you can't worry about that. You can't worry about, you know, somebody might not like me if I ask this because you've got to ask the question. That seems, I often think that comes from quite good parenting because I think you need quite a good strong sense of self.

To be able to walk into a room and not think, how can I make these people like me? That's someone who's quite secure, I suppose. Well, I'm not saying I don't want people. Of course, it's much nicer when people like you as well. That can't stop you doing the job. Yeah. And you know, you mustn't be afraid because of it. And I think, to be honest, as I found out, there are, as people get to know you,

and, you know, I've been around a long time, so people probably get, have, people who know who I am have a good sense of who I am, because they've watched me over many years and they've watched me do a long time. range of things. So, you know, they're either going to like me or they're not. I think you should do some sort of course that I can go on. Honestly, Krishnan, it's quite a superpower. But I suppose in your world, because you do do entertainment, the whole point is to be liked. So, you know, why do you think I was attracted to it? Thanks, mum and dad. So yeah, I mean, you know, And that cuts across. I mean, I think that is ultimately probably why it is difficult to do, you know, very hard news and entertainment at the same time.

Because that you will reach points where, as we are in the moment, where some things are very, very divisive. And you will annoy some people in your questioning. Yeah. Whether it's on Israel, Gaza or Brexit or, you know, immigration or, you know, these are issues that devisive. people and so people who like you for a period of time might go off you because of something you do and you can't worry about that whereas in entertainment obviously the whole point is to be popular and people to like you so would you say that when you've had experiences and we've all seen them I won't drawl through them yeah but Quentin Tarantino etc etc

when you know he I don't remember if he walked out but he said I'm shutting your butt down and yeah he didn't walk out he didn't walk out but he had he had objected to your line of questioning and made it very clear he did and this sort of went viral and you know how do you feel when those moments become sort of cultural talking points and are you how do you feel about that? I think at the time you tend to just ride it out and go I don't care. You have to take that. It's not my job to worry about whether people like me or not. I think I think in your quiet moment, it's all whether you're. had time to reflect, you then, you do, you know, it's hard not to react to personal criticism that you get, and you do get it these days on social media and all the rest of it, and to wonder,

well, did I, you know, was I in the wrong and all those sorts of things? Of course you're going to have little moments of doubt. But in the moment, you know, you are, you just got to keep telling yourself you're doing the job, which is not to say you're always in the right, you know, sometimes you will be in the wrong. But, you know, we're all human. And to be honest, there is no such thing as the right way or the wrong way to do an interview. There's just different ways. And you might all often come back, you know, from a day and think, oh, I could have handled that differently. We could have gone down a different path. But, you know, it was what it was. It was in the moment. It was what you thought in the moment. But you never think, oh, that's a shame. I'm not going to

get invited to Tarantino's ranch now? No. What did your kids think of your job? How do they think of you? Because they've grown up with you, always being on TV, for example, and getting recognised and... I don't know. I think they veer, to be honest,

between a mixture of quite liking it and probably at times being quite proud of it and other times being really, really embarrassed in hating it. And we saw Jay on Strictly. Yeah. Your son? No, I mean that was a classic example. So, you know, he really didn't want me to do Strictly.

What did he say when you got offered it? I think it was sort of, I'll just please don't, you know. I remember, I think literally a week before we started rehearsals, he, I was talking to my wife about the fact that I hadn't actually had the final contract through and I hadn't signed it. And he was like, what, you haven't signed a contract? He was like, so you don't actually have to do it. and I was like well no he said okay and he was like just cancel it just don't do it

so he genuinely didn't want me to do it because he just thought it would be really embarrassing and you know I'm sure there were interviews I think when he was a kid you know the fact that I had a bust up with Iron Man was not great and

all those sorts of things you know I mean it probably was really embarrassing I got an interview with KSI and Jay was really into KSI at the time. And I said, oh, you know, I've got this interview with KSI. And he said, oh, you're not going to do your thing, are you? And it was like, what do you mean? He said, you're not going to like give him a hard time.

I was like, no, it's KSI. It's like, you know. So, so yeah, I think there are times when it's not great. I think KSI would do a lot more than shut your back down. All right, question. We got on really well and Jay came along to the interview. Really? And we did a long, we did a way to change the world with him actually.

But no, there are other times when it's great. And now, of course, in fact, Jay's into politics and studying politics and finds it really interesting what I'm doing and, you know. So yeah, I mean, I think, and my daughter similarly, I mean, I think my... He's Jasmine, isn't it? Yeah, my daughter sort of basically sort of desperately wants me to interview pop stars. And I, unfortunately, I really, I... really enjoy interviewing pop styles so um so that's fine but i think you're able to do like i say in

those interviews in ways to change the world where you have more of a variety of guests yeah and it's not so forgive me christian i'm going to say relentlessly political um yeah you're that's all right listen when you're a dog owner i'm afraid you have to get used to this don't worry oh that was so sweet they felt so bad jump up on you it's so funny because someone's just jumped up on me and the people apologise because my coat is rather muddy. You are wearing a light pink coat. But don't you think, Krishnan, but I'm also wearing a very old coat, and don't you think that when you have a dog, it's one of the things I love,

I sort of don't care about mud anymore. Yeah. Well, I say, no, I don't. I've never got to that point. I sort of, no, I'm sort of, no, I'm, I'm walking along here thinking, oh God, I've got really muddy boots now. You're quite natty and Urbane, aren't you? Do you think? I mean, I've got friends who kind of think it's ridiculous that I ever grew up in the countryside. Why?

I think I'm, you know, I'm very towny. But you lot, I noticed very stylish, if I may say, I detected a very high-end male fragrance. Oh, well, that's clever, yes. Dipique? No, it's, it's, it's Maison Francis Ceredgeton. Impeccable taste. So does this come from your other half? what the taste.

No, that sounded so weird. She would claim yes. No, I've always been into fashion. I did a fashion series on TV. And I've always been into clothes and pop culture and all those sorts of things as well. I mean, the thing is, you know, when you do that, when you do very serious news, people just don't imagine your rounded human being who's into the same things as everybody else. I don't. I think you'll wear a horrible nylon tie.

And I was quite shocked. even, oh, Christian's got a lovely suit on. But why should I make that assumption? I think because it's, yes, I mean, because the news is square. But, you know, I mean, people want to pigeon. You want to pigeon all the people, don't you? You want your news person to not care really about anything else other than the news. And to be quite boring and square and all that of it.

Well, I sort of think it's that idea that, well, Christian will have his stuff on far higher things. going to be constantly, do you know what I mean, thinking about the issues, right, he's not going to have time to go to Bella Freud and get a 1970 jumper. O contraire. O contrar. Because I've seen that. Yeah, well, I'm wearing it. 19 on the front, 70 on the day.

What year were you born? 1970. Me too. Oh really? Yeah. This is why I'm so. That's why I've got it. I never had one until my 50th birthday.

And Lisa, my wife, got me the black and white one. And now I've got loads of 1970 stuff. And she just gave me a 1970 mug. It is a bit like being a six-year-old. You're just obsessed with when you were born. I'm very invested in your wife and your entire relationship because I've seen pictures of YouTube together on social media and she is extremely hot.

I'm allowed to say that. I'm middle-aged woman. I think I said that myself. Tell me about your love story then. Were you at university or? No. She gets a bit cross with me every time I say this, but I have said it before.

We met on a blind date. So 90s. Very 90s. And it's the only blind date I've ever been on. But yeah, a very good friend of mine who I had worked with said, oh, you should meet my daughter's godmother. And Lisa had worked with his wife and had become very good friends. And so they set us up and we had a double date. And did you like her immediately?

a Chinese restaurant and yes I mean we got yes we got together on our second date so yeah it was it was I mean it wasn't blind for her because she knew who I was they could ring her up and say what do you think of Christian Guru Murphy you want to go on a date were you doing the news at that point yes I was on Channel 4 News that's a bit weird for her going on a blind date with Channel 4 News well no I mean I think that was literally I think I think Pippa rang up and said what do you think of Christian Guru Murphy but she was like I don't know I never really thought about it and she was like well do you want to go on a date with him she was all right

So yeah, that's how we met. Are you romantic, Krishnan? Yes, I think. I mean, perhaps not as romantic as I could be or should be, but... Which way down here? He's gone down there. Come on, Chubby. Yeah, I mean, I'm quite good with presents.

I like giving presents. Are you emotionally intelligent? I think probably... Not as much as I should be, is the honest answer. I mean, I think in many ways I am, and I am more than most men. But, you know, it's probably still infantile by female standards. I've always had lots of female friends, I suppose. So I'm sort of reasonably sensitive.

Do you cry? Not a lot. I mean, you know, a little bit. but no I'm not I'm not just of a weeper I think you know all men sort of growing up for men is just a process of getting in touch with your emotions isn't it yeah you know you have children and discover empathy and then understand what people have meant for the last

30 years so yeah I think as you get older all men get a little bit more sensitive and I'm one of them too I'm 55 this year. And I think I've been lucky. You know, I've had a sort of a pretty charmed, lucky life in lots of ways. You know, I sort of, I've had a great career. I've got my family nearby.

I've got my mum and dad still. All those sorts of things, you know, that give you stability and... Are your folks still around then? Yeah. Oh, I really love them. And my wife's parents as well. So we've been very lucky from that point of view,

and it's the opposite of my upbringing, which was very nuclear family. Right. Because we were immigrants and my dad was an orphan. We just grew up the five of us, whereas our kids have grown up with grandparents and cousins and uncles and aunts and all those sorts of things as well. I'm glad you got to do strictly, though,

because I think it's important that men get to connect. with their childlike unspoiled heart. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I saw you doing that on Strictly. And when you first went on there, let's be honest, a lot of people were thinking, okay, this is that one. Yeah, it's the embarrassing newsreader, you know.

This is the Lolls. This is the, he's doing it for Lolls, he won't last long. I didn't think that at all. Because I thought, this guy thrives in a high adrenaline environment. particularly a live high adrenaline environment that's when you're at your best yeah and he also is used to having to be the most prepared person in the room I I had faith in you I was team KGM from day one no it was amazing and I loved it and I mean it I it lasted a lot longer than I ever imagined I thought I'd be out in the first couple

weeks and that's why we all did it you know and that's why I was allowed to do it by the boss you know we sort of said I'll be out by the middle of October you don't worry it's fine and cut to whine job are there exactly and then you know cut to the last day of the tour in mid-February and it's still going on and it turns out to be six months of your life it did sort of indulge that sort of whole performance side of me that had been buried for a long time and the fun and just having a laugh and being a bit flamboyant and ridiculous which you miss you know which is what I was like when I was a kid

But because I started working so young, I became pretty serious, pretty young. And if you joined the BBC in the early 90s, you know, you would get drilled, especially children's TV, which is funny to think about all the scandals that have happened since. But, you know, it would be drilled into you that you carry the weight of the BBC's reputation and you cannot misbehave. And you'll be in trouble immediately and you'll lose your job. be over. So I was, you know, I suppose I had quite a serious life from quite early on. So yeah, strictly, strictly also sort of reconnected me with slightly sort of mad Christian of before that. What do you think your greatest skill is as an interview? I don't know. I mean, I don't really

think of it in those terms. I mean, so here's an example. You tend not to think of what you're good at, I think you should. You tend to think about what you're not so good at. So I tell you what I think you're good at. Okay. How do you feel about praise? I'm very bad at it. Yeah.

Are you? Yeah, I'm very bad at taking praise and I'm probably not very good at giving it either as a result. Really? I think I probably don't praise enough. You need to work on that. Yeah. Jay and Jasmine need all the praise. Yeah, no, I think I'm okay with the kids, but I think it's more sort of...

In a working situation. Yeah, colleagues and things like that. Or friends even. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Well. But, yeah, I'm not great at taking praise either. Well, bad luck.

Because one of the reasons I love ways to change the world, I think what you're very good at, and I notice is particularly when you're doing interviews with, say someone like Nick Cave, who's got a pretty, you know, fierce intellect, I think, and is very articulate. Yeah, really impressive. you let things sit

and that's often when the most interesting stuff comes I would say you're disciplined because it takes balls sometimes that you're not foisting your own persona on the interview yeah I mean it's because I never go into an interview with a list of questions

really so I usually go into an interview with two or three things that I'm interested in and then see where it goes. And, I mean, sometimes you have to do a forensic interview with a politician or something about what's gone wrong. But with more exploratory interviews, all most political interviews, you know,

you don't have time usually to sort of have a very wide-ranging interview. So if you can make two or three points in that interview, then you're doing pretty well. And that involves listening. So the most important thing in an interview, obviously, is to listen to the answer and then react to it, rather than have a list of questions that you've got to get through.

And that means that you will sometimes think, are you going to say something else? If I don't say anything, are you going to add to that? So yeah, you've got to kind of have the confidence to just pause for a moment or be quiet as well. Christian's just told me to be quiet. We're back at where are we now? We are.

We've come around. So we're back sort of... Should we thought go through here, this tunnel? Yeah, we stick through here. There's a sign saying the National Archives. That seems like the kind of place Krishna would spend a lot of time. I bet you're quite a good friend, Christianan.

No, I mean, I think being a good friend is really, really important to me and I have a small number of very, very close friends. I don't have vast numbers of friends, but I've got friends who I've had friendships with for a very long time and who, you know, we are... The people you could ring if you're on the other side of the world. Are you someone... And unusually, I've got a job which does involve me being on the other side of the world from times and times.

You know, there's that friend who is the kind of reliable person. So some people, you know, I don't know, I just have this vision of you. Friends who are fun and friends who are reliable, you mean? No. I'm not... Oh, well, that's interesting. I never said you weren't fun. what I mean is friends you can ring it two in the morning

and say can you help me everything's gone bad do you think you're that kind of friend yes to such a to a small group of people I know very well yeah I think they I would like to think that I am that reliable person

Chauby's having a final sniff and we're going to let Christian and go because I presume you have the news tonight I don't but I've got to to go and give a talk at Q Gardens. Have you? I'm on the board at Q Gardens. I'm a trustee there,

and I'm leaving, actually, in the coming months, because I've done it for six years. And I'm just going to give a talk to the staff. And you never get nervous before the news. No, not really. I mean, you know, the news is exciting when it happens. It's not nerve-wracking, really.

It's the thing that makes you think. It makes you sort of go back into the archives of your brain. and go, okay, what's the meaning of this? What's the significance? What's important? So, yeah, I mean, I don't get nervous. I don't get scared about doing the news again. I mean, obviously, a little bit of nerves, performance nerves is good.

So, yeah, I'm not laid back. I'm comatose, but I'm keyed up. My blood pressure is probably a bit up. My heart rate's up. But I don't get scared. I get excited by big stories and breaking stories. I mean, the first time I ever presented Channel 4 News, I had to ad-lib the whole thing.

Why? Did the Auto-Cubo? No, it was because it was the night Bill Clinton bombed Sudan and Afghanistan. And it was announced at 7 o'clock. So we tore the whole program up and just sort of ad-libbed it. And so I had to ad-lib the headlines and the Good Evening and all those sorts of things. That was the first time I'd done Channel 4 News as the main presenter. So I've always enjoyed that. It was good fun.

Do you know what I've noticed We're going to let you go now But since I've been walking with you There's an interesting response to you From people on the street And they recognise you It's not something I have too often And it's a kind of

Something I'm certainly not used to Which is respect And people look at you And it's really interesting Christian I've been noticing it It's like they look They look again And then they nod

As if to say Oh right It's the good after news No, but there's an odd respect that element there. I can't explain it. It's like they've seen a historical figure. That's very flattering. I mean, I never notice it because I don't,

I suppose I don't walk around catching people's eye. Well, I suppose you sort of, you have that slightly middle gaze down. But my kids always notice, or my wife, you know, I never notice when people have noticed me, to be honest. But they do. They go, oh, that person's looking. It's a nice kind of fame, though, I think you have. Because that's what I clocked just now, was that people were looking.

It was like you were the local, you were the mayor or something. It was like, oh yeah, there he goes. Yeah. There's a few around here, though, I suppose. I've loved our walk with you, Krishna. Have you enjoyed it? Thank you very much. Yeah, it's very relaxed.

Has it? Yeah. I mean, it's always weird talking about yourself, isn't it? But, um. Is it? I think so, yeah. I mean, it's sort of, you know that thing about how memory is, um, is not real? It's a sort of, it's a memory of a memory.

And I suppose the more you talk about yourself, the more you're kind of making it up is what, is what I worry about, you know, so is this, is this a real memory or is this something I've just, you know, is it a memory of a memory and therefore perhaps a bit unreliable? But, um. Well, what we could do is just. make sure we put something like, Christian is remembering this to the best of visibility, but all memories are inherently subjective. I know what you mean. It's sometimes, it's like

you're constantly, because what's happening is when you're talking about your childhood, for example, what you're referencing mentally is the last time you talked about it. Yeah. So when you asked me, are we popular, I've no real idea. I think I was probably quite anxious about not being popular enough in truth, but I did also have. have lots of friends so yeah I you know I try and I'm to have helicoptering out on it and going was I popular well I wasn't unpopular but I wasn't really popular but I can't really remember how I felt because I could have also probably I have a vague memory of being a bit anxious about was I in with the right group and did people

you know like you at the time or like me but then I think in some ways that says a lot about you that you're even holding your old memories to account, holding your own memories to account. Will you answer the question memories? Was I popular or not? Are you sure? But let's look at the counter evidence. I think that's because you're so forensic. You don't even give your memories a break. They're not trying to fiddle their expenses. They're just doing their best. But I think also, because also with things like childhood, there's a load of witnesses. Right. who might listen to it and go, well, that's a load of bollas. I'm going to be asking, Gita.

You've got to make sure you get it right, haven't you? You can't just invent your history. I suppose some people do, but I mean, you're always going to get found out. I lost my sister, and she, I think it was only when she died that I realised, God, she was such a linchpin in terms of the fellow witness. Yeah.

And you have that with your siblings, where they'll say, no, no, Christian, you weren't popular at school. And my best friends, I mean, my two best friends I've known since I was four and eight. And we're still, I mean, we had dinner on Sunday night. That says a lot for you, I think. Don't you think? I always trust people that have at least a couple of friends that have been around a long time because also pre-fame, pre-media, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I don't really have showbiz friends. Do you not? Not really. I mean, because some of the people who I've met through showbiz then become good friends. Yeah. I don't have that kind of superficial showbiz friends. Yeah.

Which would be fun, you know, because they have great parties. But yeah, I sort of, there's no point. But this is me. This is in fact, this is my house. Oh, I love this. Oh, this is what I hope for and more. We won't say anything about the house, but it's everything I hope for. Krishna, it's been an absolute delight

What a thoroughly lovely man you are Well, that's very kind of you, thank you very much I have to say, chubby chops We haven't talked as much about chubby as I thought you would Or dogs But as you know with ways to change the world You talk a bit about ways to change the world But it's just a device

Don't ruin it, Krishna It was going so well I prefer to call it a jumping off point Yes Are you a hugger? Are you uncomfortable with hugging? No, no, I am Are you okay? Yeah.

You've done strictly. You have to. Of course. Let's hug. Christian, thank you so much. Chubby Chops. It's always difficult to hug when you're carrying a dog. Bye, bye, Chubby Chops.

Oh, Chubby Chops actually gave me a dirty look and then walked in the other direction. Why is that? I don't know. He's a bit sort of, he doesn't really know what's been going on. Well, Chubby, it was gorgeous to meet you, even if you gave me a slight side eye there. Bye, Christian. Bye-bye. Bye, Raymond.

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