Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Lee Mack Returns!

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

This week Emily is joined by her first returning guest, Lee Mack, to introduce his silver Labrador puppy, Ludo. They discuss adjusting to dog ownership, his fear of flying, his views on class and also Lee’s fabulous podcast, ‘I Can't Believe It's Not Buddha’. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, that was quite high drama of a dog doing a week. Well, it's my personal assistant's day off. That is a joke. I deal with my own poo. Welcome to a brand new series of Walking the Dog. Now, it's not often I repeat a guest on this show. In fact, it's not ever. But I've decided to make an exception in this person's case, partly because he's an exceptional man,

but also because since his last appearance with a borrowed dog, he's only gone out and got his very own dog. I secretly think it's all because he wanted to appear on my podcast again. My guest this week is the utterly hilarious comedy genius Lee Mack. Lee took me for a walk pre-lockdown, calm down everyone, in his local West London park to meet his silver Labrador puppy, Ludo, who is, by the way, absolutely adorable. But then let's face it, so is Lee.

The man's a joy to spend a day with. We talked about how he was. adjusting to dog ownership and the world of poo bags, his fear of flying, his views on class, and also his brilliant new podcast. I can't believe it's not Buddha. It's basically him and his best mate, Neil, sharing their forays into mindfulness, meditation and spirituality. If you haven't heard it yet, you must. Because it's not only fascinating and thought-provoking, it's also utterly hilarious. It's a thing of genius. So do download it wherever you get your podcasts. I really hope you enjoy my walk with Lee. I'll shut up now as I know he'll be saying, all right, love,

when do I get a word in? Remember to do the usual rate review and subscribe and I'll hand over to the man himself. Here's Lee and Ludo. Lee, do you think these shoes are all right? Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Is there any reason why this has taken so long to get going and that you don't like doing it at this time of day? Right, come on then. We're recording now, are we? Oh, we're off. Come on, Lee. How do you start? start your podcast, you say, hello, this is lit? Or do you just pretend we're mid-conversation? I tell you what I do.

I just start talking and then I might do the intro in a second, just to build up some atmosphere. All right, that's nice. You don't do that thing where you fake it by going. Yeah, no, that is a good point. So how... And they're like, oh God, even when you join us, we're having fun. You don't do that?

That's a good way, didn't it? just pretend, these guys, wish I could be part of that world. I am going to introduce you because this is a really special moment for me. Because Lee Mack is the first person who's ever come back again to do a second walking the dog. This is my second visit. And the last time I came, I was a typical non-dog owner in that I just, you know, to was that old comedy cliche.

I was the cat person. Got three cats and all these comedic things people do about the difference between cats and dogs are based on truth. You know, they're just low maintenance, right? And dogs are high maintenance. So you lent me a dog last time. I did. We borrowed Livy from the Dogs Trust,

who was a collie cross, and my abiding memory of that, Lee, there were two things I remember. The first was when Libby. went to the bathroom, you said, help call the police. And then you said to me, there's a lot of talking to people with dogs, isn't it? Well, here's the thing. So what I'm saying is, I then decided, even though we'd had a lovely day, you perhaps would never get a dog.

I would like to pretend that I went away from that and said, she's made me think differently about life. I see it more that despite that day I got a dog rather than because of it. And we've been talking about it. We have actually been talking about it for about 25 years, me and my good lady Tara. I've been saying, should we get a dog? Should we get a dog? And then we thought, no, I'll have some kids instead. We had three kids. And then should we get a dog now?

All the kids are a bit young. What if the dog attacks the kids? Yeah, let's not do it. This carried on for years and years. And then our youngest is eight. and we thought, well, if we don't get a dog now, we'll probably never get a dog because if you're going to get a dog, at least have a dog so the kids can grow up with a dog. I grew up with a dog, and from the age of 7 to 21 he was alive, he was part of my youth.

So I thought that would be nice for them to have that as well. Can we, before we go any further, can we introduce your dog who? Yeah, who I now have in my hand, I should say. We're not just walking. who is astonishingly beautiful. You just said he looked like me before we went to this podcast. We were having a coffee and you went, he actually looks like you.

And I thought, oh, okay. I mean, I can't think of a dog in the world. I mean, you could do a competition of the billion dogs in the world and find the most beautiful and I would still not want to look like it. Well, you've got similar eyes. You've both got very piercing blue eyes. And we both have an unusual way of cleaning ourselves. Can you introduce me to your dog, Lee?

Right, so this is Ludo. Now, first of all, the name. Well, I'll tell you the breed first, actually. Which were we going, Lee? In this conversation. Yeah. Because I did say... Should we go that way?

His name's Ludo. Actually, I'll tell you his breed first, which was immediately followed by which way are we going, Lee. And I thought, all right, we're just chatting. Have a direction with your conversation, no way you're heading, and go straight for it. Are you Alan Partridge?

Right. But you meant which way we're turning. We're turning left, yes. So this is Ludo, who is a Labrador. I don't know if you ever heard of a Labrador before. They're a very unusual dog. Yes, he's holding a stick. Lee, he's got a stick in his mouth.

You are saying that like it's the first time you've ever seen a dog as opposed to your 100th podcast. To be fair, you've seen my dog. He's a silver Labrador, the more unusual Labrador. And a lot of people think he's a Wymerana. We got him as a puppy. He's, I did my little bit of research. See, if you look online, you have little league tables,

what is the dog that is most friendly with kids? And what is the dog that doesn't bark too much? And what is the dog that is easy to train? Labrador are the Manchester United or Manchester City. They always seem to be near the top of the league. And that is why we got him, because we thought we play safe. But then I thought, I want to somewhat a bit different. Let's go for a silver one.

Because that way, he looks like a Wymerana, which I quite fancy, but did badly in the league table. Did it? Well, not as good as the lab, but nothing can beat the lab. That's why they're so popular. But going back to the conversation you said earlier, what I didn't realise about the silver lab, is that it would draw more attention.

Ludo likes the producer. He's a bit of a ladies man. Yeah, he's heading that way, isn't it? But I don't want you to be jealous. I don't think he's... I mean, when you first saw him when he got out of the car, then you went, I think dogs really like me. And we're five minutes in, and he's already bored with you.

And he's moving on to your producer. But in some ways, I feel similar. Do you? Can you give her the mic? No, of course not. Do you... I must stop you. I think he's defecating.

I actually have a food bag. I've got the bags. I will take control of this situation. Watch me in action. Because I know you probably don't trust me as a person. that can... It was a wee. It was a wee.

Right. I always get mixed up. The liquid one that comes out of the sticky bit. That's the wee, right? That was quite high drama. Yeah. A dog doing a wee.

Well, it's my personal assistant's day off. That is a joke. I deal with my own poo. That sort of alludes to what I was saying earlier, which is I felt you were quite stressed beforehand about the amount of... Before I got him? The list of things.

you had to tick off and to do it properly. We did text you didn't we and say, right, we're in the shop, what do we need to get? What do we need to get? Do we need to get this? And you said, I don't think a rubber lady bird is essential at this stage. It's like the shop was going to be open for one day for the rest of our lives and it was now or never. It was a panic bar, you know, because I thought it might be like,

you know, there was no toilet paper for a while and no flower. Yeah. I thought there might be a run on rubber toys. or those dental things that they eat to make their breath smell nicer. Yes, dental sticks are great. Oh, they're good. We haven't done that yet. Right, there seems to be more defecational urination. He's definitely doing one or the other.

Hold the coffee, please. It's a runny poo, a very runny poo. I will now, I will now pick it up. I am picking it up. It goes in the bag. Bag tied. In pocket and now treat, hang on. Oh yeah.

Treat, treat. There you go, Ludo. Sit. Lie down. Lie down. Go on, lie down. Lie down. Emily, will you lie down?

Oh, there you go. Oh, there you go. Marvelous. Lido, good boy. The children chose the name Ludo. I wanted to go for Smokey because he's a grey colour. The kids felt that it might suggest. he smokes. I'm with the kids. Yeah, Ludo and also I think of Ludo as being a very

plasticy bit rubbishy game but actually I don't think kids play Ludo. Oh that's nice to say him. Yeah but yeah but A he can't understand English and B the kids don't know that game they don't really play Ludo because it's not available on the PS4. I think of Ludwig Kennedy the do you know him? I do yes because believe it or not despite the act I am a bit cultured. The violinist who sports astavilia? I know it's Nigel get on with it. Who was a sort of 1970s intellectual wasn't he? To be honest with you the 1970s was a pretty rough time even I was a 1970s intellectual. That says more about the 1970s. What are you doing? Come on. Lee? Oh my God I think he's eating deer poo.

Are there a deer here? We should say as well, we're in Bushy Park. And I have to say my dog is doing very well with the training. The one area of training he isn't doing well at is coming back to me, hence me keeping him on the lead because I've always got one eye on a Benton situation. Is it Benson, that dog? Is that the name? Benton. Fenton?

Fenton, was it? Fenton. And I'm always worried that, he just doesn't come back. You see, you went Benson. because again 70's smoking reference. Bences, yeah. Let's go back to... I thought you meant the butler from soap.

You had dogs when you were growing up, didn't you? Correct. So I had... No, a dog. So I lived doing... You'll have to look back and see how much of this is repetitious. I can't remember, of course. I mean, it's news to me that it's my second appearance.

Come on, Luda. Have a stick. Go on. Look, there you go. Have a stick. He likes a stick. Do you know what? There's... I know, there's deer around here. I was going to let him off.

Yeah, so I had... I lived in a pub in the 1970s and a dog turned up on the doorstep, pregnant. As with your mum and dad and brother? No, no, we're puppies. And... And... That's how I got introduced to them. Oh, I wasn't expecting that to come out.

Will you be my mum and dad and brother? No, it was a dog turned up at the pub in the winter and it was like, it had a bit of husky in it. We don't know quite what, I think it was a mongrel, but it was a big golden, fluffy teddy bear type dog. Kind of dog that, you think, why would anybody not want to keep this dog? It felt like someone had kicked him out, kicked her out even. And so she turned up, my dad gave her the very healthy food, food of pie and mushy peas that we used to sell in the pub. And the dog thought, oh, that's the right result. and kept coming back every day for pie and mushy peas.

So eventually we just kept the dog. We went to the police and no one claimed her. So we kept doing. She had puppies and we gave the puppies away. And then that dog stayed in our house until I was 21. Because your parents ran a pub. So she was one of those pub dogs that you used to see her lot. Yeah, she was very much.

And this is the 70s when dogs would roam the street with no. microchipping, no collars, there was dog poo everywhere, and I'd like to pretend that I found that outrageous when in fact, that was my dog. I would say my dog was 90% responsible for the poo in this country. Because he lived outside, because he was a wild dog, well, a stray dog when we found him, and he had a husky bit in him and hated the warm, just love the cold, then she would constantly just live outside. So she would just, especially with a pub, you just, the door's always opening You said he and she. Is it a male or female? I keep forgetting because it's been a while.

I'm now 52 and I have now got a male dog. What was the first thing you felt? Were you scared? When you got Ludo, very excited. Kids are excited, presumably. Tarras excited. We all drove to Birmingham to pick him up. Yeah.

Come on. So he's a Birmingham dog. Oh, you listen to him, Bart. You'll hear the accent, which you think is a joke, but apparently animals do have accents. Did you know that? Is that right? Well, cows do.

A cow will moo have a regional moo. Well, I did a science programme on Sky and that's what I was told and that's what I was happy to tell the nation. I hope they did their research. Or maybe it's a country. A French cow moves differently to an English cow. Really? Yeah. That's a cutie.

That is a cutie. A little dog's arrived. My dog is obsessed with dogs that are small. Oh, is he a bit worried. Oh. Yeah, my dog is Ludo will sort of jump on him in a friendly way because he's smaller. Hello, sweetheart. Hello, darling.

Are you worried? Do you want me to stand that way? Are you there? Oh, he's scratching his bottom on the ground. Oh, he's had a stroke. I can't not work it out. This dog is... Hello, sweetheart.

It's okay. Go on, it's okay. I'm going to take this dog out of here. Come on, come on, there you go. Marla was worried about... Did you see my dog handling there? You did very well. Well, he said, Diane, he went towards the dog,

and the dog ran away from you in a way that suggested a past experience with that dog. Can I say I averted a potentially very ugly... situation there. Well, yeah, if that's the narrative you want to play out, then yeah, you were very much Bruce Willis in that diehard situation. I just saw a woman going for a dog with her hand and the dog pelted it, but you know. So Lee, you're in the car going to Birmingham. Yeah. Oh, the whole family made the trip? I think it might be Wolverhampton. It was the Midlands. And the whole family made the trip? Uh, the whole family went. We were very excited, yes. We've got the travel suites. We've got the travel suites. We've got the, uh, the cage that I did like a lot.

a lot of research on, oh sorry, the crate, because I'm learning. You don't say cage because I can only assume dog owners don't want to feel like they're putting a dog in a cage, even though every bit of evidence suggests it's a cage. But it's called a crate, which I traditionally associate with wood. Have you ever seen a metal crate in your life? I think there is something horrible sounding about a cage. I mean, you know, let's give it a different name. then you know it just sounds my uncle he's not in prison isn't he no no he's in a massive crate which is much more palatable it's a cage but sometimes can I just point out he's not that was me making the point you know what I mean take your

coffee so go on we still we tend to do this a lot Lee because you and I get distracted easily because we have we're not neurotypical are we well what is what is in the I don't mean scientifically what is it. I mean, what is it? It means our brains. I know what it means. I mean.

We've discovered. Okay, don't get sensitive to you. I know what it means. I mean, if you just said we're not the typical type of person, I go, yeah, but what is typical? Well, I suppose people's brains do tend to work in a standard pattern. Right. And we've both been told that we have ADHD. No, you've been told, I suspect.

You suspect. You've had the test, haven't you? Yeah. And I have done the test, but for a joke, so I started joking around on it and do you get distracted easily and I drew balls and a willie, that type of thing. As an adult having it, and I do suspect I've got it, because I haven't spoken to people about it, then it's, it has its ups and its positives and its negatives. And the positives are certainly in my job on panel games and stuff that I can hear seven people. talking, whereas some people are just focusing on the one person talking. You can tune in to what suits what you want to talk about and you can.

But I think we've talked about this before, the idea that when I go to a pub, well, I don't go into pubs anymore, but when I used to go to pubs, I'd often go, oh, God, that was all kicking off, wasn't it? They go, what was? The conversation behind us, where that row broke out. And they go, what brought around? I go, you're not serious. That huge argument.

And the people go, I didn't notice anything. And I'm thinking, am I just nosy? But to me, it's like, it is like having eight or nine radio channels going off at once. That's what it is. And most people can tune into one, but you tend to tune into nine. The problem is you're not listening to any one of them succinctly enough. Or you have mad, obsessive concentration on one thing. Right, Lee, we've really got to get back to when you've got Ludo.

Oh, sorry. So you're in the car. Yeah. You've gone to Birmingham. Gone to Birmingham. We've already been to Birmingham. Let's call it the Midlands. Because I can't remember exactly where it was.

We went to the Midlands and we checked out the dog. We chose the dog from a litter. And then we went back on the correct date where we're allowed to pick him up. The first date was extremely exciting. And actually hard because you're choosing which one. And that's really hard because they're very young. It's very hard to tell them apart at that age. And they wanted to go for the one that was...

You know, the natural instinct is to go for the little one that's jumping up and down and looking like she wants some attention. But I wanted to go for the placid one that was a calmer. And eventually I got my way. We went for the calmer one. You see, that's interesting. I would have obviously gone for the small one jumping up and down wanting the attention. Because it looks like, oh, this little girl loves me.

She's going to want my attention all the time. Yeah, I know you. You're needy. Whereas me, I just want this thing in my peripheral vision now and again. What was the first night likely? It's like having a kid, you know, you can get told all the things in your NTC classes, but when you have a, is it NTC, is that the right phrase? NCT.

I don't have children, FYI, but I know that. Yeah, go on. FIYY. FY. FY. No, I was joking because I got NTC right. I'm not explaining them all. So the first night, we thought this dog, we got told the dog would howl for its mother,

be really upset, and it also needs to go to the toilet a lot. because it's a puppy and it'll be nervous so we moved an old sofa into the kitchen and I was working that week and I had to be up early so Tara said I will sleep downstairs for the first few nights with the dog and I think you know what

she was playing there isn't this nice of me doing this I suspect she was trying to get first bit of bombed you know what I mean because we've got a cat since I lasted the podcast with you we bought a new cat

and the cat is known and it's a British blue, and they're known for picking on one person of the family, bonding with them over everybody else. And I picked that cat up, that kitten up. And ever since then, she's always been my sort of, she follows me. Hey. Yeah, now you're pointing at a deer there, aren't you? We may have a fencing situation. I'd never know when the rutting season is, but if he saw them, he would be over like a shot.

We're looking at about a dozen, very horny. and I mean they've got hordes. Deer. Should we call them stagged? Yeah. We're looking at some stags. Are they aggressively? Or are they quite docile? The hell do I know.

I'm a stand-up comedian, is 52. I bought a dog eight weeks ago. That is as near to nature as I have ever been. And so suddenly you see the dog, you go, Can I ask you, Lee, the rotting stags, are they... I don't know. I know as much as you. Lee, can you hear the bird song?

Would I be writing saying it's the male chaffinch? I have no idea. All I know, I know as much as you. So let's just walk quickly. I just thought, given that this was your manner, you brought me here. Listen, I come to this park occasionally. Occasionally. What I don't do is sort of grab their testicles to see how far I can go before they get aggressive.

Bye, bye, dear. See, you love. Oh, sir. I was getting confused. Sorry, I saw three people approaching the other way. You said, bye, dear. I saw an audience and felt the need to say, all right, bye, love. Well, that is a problem, isn't it?

It's boiling, isn't it? Sorry. I get hot, very easy. I think I'm having menopause. I'm just taking my neck and my next jacket off. I'll keep going until I'm naked. Can you hold my dog, please? Alan Corcoran, who I do the radio show with, is Frank.

He has a whipet, called Lucky. Which I think he just named it Lucky so that I could say, when did you get Lucky? And he'd go, eh. However, one thing I... You know, similarly, I wanted to call him your vasectomy. Where did you get your vasectomy? I always think of Lucky as being, you know, that's a catchphrase in our house,

because you know that old joke? When did you get lucky? I'll say it as I've seen your wife. She's a stone cold fox gorgeous. Yes, well, I mean, I'm talking about the... You know what funny should say is we talked about this yesterday on, with Rocheon Connerty, you know, Roshi? Oh, yeah.

Her sister met Tara and said, I assume you two have been together after you became a comedian and a bit of money. And I said, no, no, we met before I ever was a comedian when we were at university. And she looked aghast at why this woman would be with me. And do you know what she said? Did you save her life?

something. I thought, that's incredible, bold statements to mate, after five minutes of meeting someone. Oh, Lee, look at that big one. What is that? Is that a German Shepherd? Did we talk about this in the first podcast that I was bitten by an Alsatian and made the national papers? Do you know this story? Oh, yes! Did we talk about that? No, I can't remember. Tell me what happened again. Remind me briefly.

After this podcast, we'll go, be socially distanced coffee at my house in the garden and I will bring Bring down the newspaper that I found recently from 1970 something of me being page three of the Sunday people. I know, it's not what you're thinking. I mean, I was a chubby kid, but I didn't have boobs. So you were bitten. So you had to, do you think getting the dog when your dog, pub dog, as I call your dog, pub dog made you overcome the fear of it?

I wasn't scared. The truth is, I just got bitten by a guard dog. and there was a spate of guard dogs biting people, and we can't go carry on because there's a German shepherd. We go left, there's a rutting stag. Why don't we split the difference and go just past that man with a knife? Oh, he's having another wee. Do you know what I find gobsmacking?

I think I remember saying this to you, that I am one of these people before I had a dog I thought I would struggle with picking up the poo. Never did I realise that it would completely be the opposite where I'd be so proud that he's had a poo. It's one of the most pleasurable things I do, is pick up the poo because I go, he's had a poo.

I know he's going to be all right now. He's not going to do it in the house. He did it outside, and it was a solid one. It wasn't runny. And I've come running in. I've held it in a bag and gone, feel that. You know, and how proud I am that he's done a solid poo. That's a long journey from, I can't go near that.

It becomes like the highlight of the day because we're like, oh my gosh, he's had a poo. Is that, I mean, I haven't had kids myself, but does it feel, is it similar? to when you have a kid in that sense that there's stuff that you'd think oh god I'd never do that oh listen when we had a child my wife used to regularly smell the wee in the nappies when they were very young and go oh it's such a sweet smell have a smell and push it so far to my face that sometimes it would touch my face and I used to go that is disgusting and she was known on the

odd occasion to do it with poo she was going to go oh there's something very sweet about baby poo, early baby poo, and be wafting it near me face and I'd be like, what are you doing? But the wee carried on for quite a while, the wee was like, it has a very sweet smell, she said. I mean, I think she wanted to bring it out as a fragrance. And so what's changed for you? And how has the dog changed your house, do you think? Well, I'll tell you what we did. We allowed, we spent a long times following the rules of saying, no, don't, you know, show them who's the boss. So don't let them up on the sofa and we wanted the kind of dog that jumps on the bed and the sofa and all that but we got told don't because if you start letting them do that they won't know who's the boss

and then you'll have problems in other areas but we've decided he's allowed on the sofa that we've brought in the kitchen right and it's because he's stopped doing that nippy thing stop biting and so now what I do is I go to the sofa and I lie down on it and he immediately jumps up and lands on my belly and just looks adoringly at me as he just lies there and it is the most relaxing thing in the world you know that feeling of if someone's lying on top of you I don't mean it in a sexual way but if someone's lying on top of you there's something very relaxing about that yeah have you ever had like having a baby or a small child on you just a weight

any sort of weight on you it's the reason why we lie down and we put cushions on us yeah feeling of security but a dog especially his age because he's not it's not fully grown dog yet just lying on on me and if I feel a tiny bit of stress and he just lies on me I immediately feel calmer to the point where I was thinking of getting some sort of papoose and taking him to work so that you know if the show isn't going so well I've got a dog lying on me but never mention it obviously do you think he does make you a bit calmer well I've I'm not trying to shamelessly promote my podcast but I'm into meditation at the moment which I'm

sure we will talk about otherwise what is the point of me doing this so maybe that has a bit But having said that, coincidentally, I got this dog at a time when I've completely slackened off in the meditation. But no, it definitely works. Well, actually, maybe this is a good time to talk about your podcast, because to me it's interesting that you've got the dog, which I associate with having beneficial mental health. Can I just say, before you ask me that question? Sure. ADHD, man in front of us did something with his coat.

Yeah. I'm convinced something has fallen out of his coat onto the floor. And we're going to have to call him back. However, I don't want to take the risk in case it's an old bit of paper that looks like a complaint. So we'll pass casually. We'll pass casually. Then we'll pick up the face. We'll see what he's dropped.

And then we'll say, excuse me, mate. If he says, well, I know, it's an old Chris packet. What's it to you, mister? You know, we'll have aggravation and everything, won't we? I feel like at Rosemary and time, the detectives. Something dropped. What is it? What is it?

Let's have a look. Something dropped. This is the big mystery. What dropped out of the man's pockets? It was. It's a mask. Should we pick it? Okay, here's a dilemma.

Did he mean to... I don't think he did. I'm going to call him. You're the celebrity, so it might be more embarrassing. So I call him. Excuse me? Excuse me. I think he dropped something.

Your mask? Thank you. I thought you might need it. Sorry if you dropped it on purpose and we weren't shaming you. No, no, thank you so much. No worries. No probes. Yeah, I know.

I thought we dealt with that really well, me. Yeah, we did. We gave it a light. heart of touch, we weren't shaming you. And yet, luckily, I did it all. Of course. You know, I was very sort of like, it mortifies me the idea if someone

dropped a bit of pay, because it was definitely accidental. And if that had been a bit of paper and we'd have said, excuse me, you've dropped a bit of paper. He'd have thought, well, all right, we all make mistakes, because it was definitely a mistake. Sometimes it's worth risking humiliation to do a good thing. I love doing a good thing. I'm sometimes tempted

to run up to someone and say, here you dropped a to fibre, even though they didn't, and just giving them a just because they think I'm so great and that's worth a fiver in it? I mean, listen, how good would that? That person is going to feel great all day, you're going to feel great and it's cost a fiver. And if you can't afford a fiver, you know, a pound, 50p, anything. Do you know what I mean?

Or small child, if you've got a small child with you, you can get it with 2p, get the small child to run after the adult with 2 pens. They think your child is really cute, it's only cost you 2p, the daughters think she's done something great, it's a little bit, it's a life-affirming thing. Isn't that wonderful? What you can do if you lie to people? I've noticed, and I do now want to talk about your podcast.

Oh yes. Because I noticed when we came out the first time with a dog, but it wasn't your dog, you had said the thing that you find most difficult is sort of all people talking to you and all that interaction. I want to say something quite personal. Okay. You know that I might not answer you?

I know. I felt you've been a bit... That's an incredible response. I might not answer you. Yeah, I know, but I'm going to push on regardless. There you go. I felt you've been slightly less anxious about that. I feel you're a little bit more relaxed now, if I'm totally honest. Well, of course, when I was with you, I had a dog that you lent to me from some sort of dog bostle or something. And I didn't know if it was an Asbo dog.

Sorry. Don't use Asbo dogs. Just to clarify, that's the dog's try. who are a very reputable dog rescue. Yes, no, I was saying it lightheartedly, and I fully support the dog trust. I feel like you're a bit calmly. Well, because I just wasn't, I'm not, listen, I'm on the telly, and that is a fact.

And occasionally people come up to you and they talk to you, and I'm fairly private. I'm quite a private person. I don't do social media, any of that nonsense. And so this is the closest I will do, to social media is a podcast and indeed my own podcast now, which I'm sure we're going to get to at some point, because as I said before, otherwise, what is the point in me doing this?

And so I'm, you know, I don't mind a hello, how yet, blah, blah, but I don't like having too many conversations with strangers, but that's not just because I'm on the telly, it's because I've always been like that. A bit private, you know, so I'll say a lot to people, but I don't want to, But you have to let go with that with a dog, especially a dog like this, because it's a silver Labrador. So you have to get ready for the same conversation at least 20 times on every walk. And it goes something like this. Oh, that's, isn't he lovely? What is he?

And I will start off with a dog, never gets a laugh. And then they go, yeah, but what kind of dog? And I go, I said, Labrador. I've never seen a silver Labrador. Yes, a lot of people think there. Why Maranas? Oh, I didn't. Oh, and how old is he?

He's 16 weeks. And then, of course, you reciprocate. And what's your dog? Well, it's a Dalmatian. You must have known that. Well, all right, I'm just having conversation with you. How old is he? Shall I count the spots?

I thought it was worth more, and she doesn't laugh. And then, well, blah, blah. This goes on every single time. Not one person has ever come up to me since I've had a dog and go, I like your shoes. Will you get them? Or. To be fair, that didn't happen that often before you got off.

No, it didn't. And to be fair, look at me. You know, I was using it in as an example. No one's ever come up to me and gone, oh, it's a nice day, isn't it? And it's a nice coffee shop around. None of that. You can let go of any conversation about anything other than your dog and his or her dog.

I quite like that interaction, though. I have to say, yeah, I sort of do as well. It's quite, it's repetitive, but you've got to let go of it. If you think you're going to date your dog for it and not taught to at least 20 people that day. But do you know what? I have to say, I do like it. At first I thought I'd be wary of it.

But I quite like it because it's, it reminds you that actually most people are pretty cool, aren't they? They're nice, they're relaxed, they're nice people. And it's about being open and it's about living in the present, which brings me neatly to, I can't believe it's not Buddha. My podcast. But sadly, Lee, we've run. out of time. And then I'll say, but ah, but what is time? And you'll say, I don't care. We've run out

of it. Which is the podcast you started recently with, it's kind of your best mate, isn't he? Yeah, he's one of my oldest mates from universities called Neil Webster and he's, uh, we, we went to uni together as I was a mature student and I think he was a bit older than the other. What uni was it again? Are we allowed to say? It was Brunel University. Well, it started off when we joined as West London Institute of Higher Education and then halfway through became Brunel.

Thank God, because the first one sounds more like one below a polytechnic catering college and the second one sounds like, I now know how to build bridges. And you probably missed all that. I just dropped my mind. We went to university and one of the first things I remember him telling me was,

I thought I'm going to like this guy because one of the first thing he told me was he'd been mugged and then decided that he'd not been, you know, he'd just moved to London to go to university, got mugged, was worried. And so he decided he can't just stay in his in the house for a few days, which he was doing, he decided to face the world again, you know. So he got a coat hanger from his bedroom, a wire coat hanger, and he put it on his head. and spent the next week just going outside only with a wire coat hanger on his head on the basis that he thinks you're not going to mug a man who's got a coat hanger on his head and I sort of see the logic in that

you go if you've got a choice of all the people why choose the man with a coat hanger on his head you're chancing it aren't you because who knows what he's capable of if he's capable of putting a wire coat hanger on his head and I thought ah that is guy and then he wrote a little movie which was a sort of like spinal

tap type movie and he knew I started doing stand-up so he asked me to be in it. I said to him when I got a job in telly doing a stand-up show in the 90s, I said, look, you can't you? You can write some jokes, you get paid per joke. One thing led to the other, he ended up owning a production company that ended up making Would I Lie to You? Blah, blah, blah, blah, and then he's now got his own production company and lives in Scotland. But he's always been, you know, a writer and behind the cameras and although when we met, we were in sketch shows. together and thing. But he soon gave up that side of performing. But we've always made each other laugh. You know, even if it's just, even if no one else finds it funny, we've made each other laugh.

So we've been talking about the idea of a podcast for a while. And then coincidentally, we both got interested in the world of meditation. Did that have anything to do with giving up? Drinking? No, that wasn't the order of events. The first event was, the first event was. I went out for a walk with Rob Brydon who said that, can I just interrupt this conversation? Is it normal for a dog to be breathing that heavily? Because what I can't understand is he's thrusting forward on the leads so much. His neck is digging into the collar so much. Can you hear that on the mat? Now I'm not, why doesn't he just stop pulling? Sometimes as well. Sometimes you've got to loosen the collar as they grow.

You've got to loosen the collar. I should point out I have looted the collar quite a lot. And sometimes you can bring water as well for them I always bring water I do I always bring water for the dog but one time I don't I get pulled up on a nationally broadcast podcast Yeah

Come on Yeah so go on So you just I don't give him any of the water I was out for a walk with Rob Bryden And he said Oh he'd been reading that Jerry Seinfeld Meditates

Just Transcendental Meditation And swears by it and he's been doing it for 25 years and it's a big thing in his life and I just thought it's quite interesting you know the idea of I didn't really know anyone who'd done it really I didn't didn't I wasn't aware of it as a thing and I thought I've heard of transcendental meditation I'll have a crack at that something to do in it just just a laugh I think I gave it no more thought than I'll just give it a crack one thing led to another I ended up getting me mantra off a of a bloke.

Not in a pub. I actually had a proper booked in because they come and sing. You have to go through a little bit of a pretentious sort of thing where you have to gift a handkerchief and orange and a bunch of flowers to the maha, I can never say it. Mahar, what's he called? Maharishi. You think I'd know this given that I do

a podcast about Buddhism meditation? And so we did a... Maharishi? That's it. And, you know, the Beatles guy. So I had the meditation thing. And then I just found it was beneficial. But not in a sort of life-changing, oh my God, I'm at one with the universe type way.

I just mean, if I stood on Lego, I'd just swore once rather than for 10 minutes. You know, that kind of calmness. It was just a bit, you know, I'd still get irritated about why Tara was still playing with Lego, but I wouldn't say, can we sell some of it anymore? You know, that kind of level of just a bit, if I was a, if my stress levels were a 40 out of 100, I'd gone down to about a 37. So it had some small beneficial effect.

But the more I learnt about it, the more I realised that it's, oh, that is, do you think you can drink that water? Yeah. Drink that, can't it? It's flowing. Would you let your dog drink that water? Yeah, I think it's okay. I do really love the podcast and I think it's because I have an interest in that area

but I think what I'm wary of is a slight earnestness perhaps that I feel can often... Yeah, well this is the thing because we are as I say in the first episode we took our sort of interesting meditation a little bit further, did a bit of reading.

The world of Buddhism and meditation is phenomenally linked There are so many different types of Buddhism and there's lots of different types of meditation but certainly when you read about Buddhism the one thing, the one constant in all the readings is meditation. It's like the secret key to everything they're saying and they're basically I mean I'm very much paraphrasing now

but the idea that to some degree Buddhism is about not constantly rely in thinking or assuming that you are your thoughts everything is intellectualised and everything you think about yourself as being is through your brain and through your thoughts. And Buddhism tries to sort of say,

well, you're not what your thoughts are. You are something else. And you can't intellectualise that. You have to practice it. And the only way to really practice it is to meditate. You can read about it, but you'll never get a true insight into it until you just get on with it and meditate.

And it gives you the first little glimmers of, oh yeah, I'm feeling that. I see what they're saying. These are glimmers. These are not big life change. moments where I'm going to shave me out and go and live in to bet. Right? Now I'm going to have to stop this now because the dog is approaching two swans and I reckon my money's on the swans.

Don't you reckon? There's a good one way to find out. Let's take him off the lead. Place your bets. And the swan has hissed and now we're all backing off. It didn't end well. It just, that was, that was foolish of me. What did I think would happen other than the swans were going to hiss at my dog? Now that moment that the swan just hissed up my dog.

Yes. The implication is that that swan is very angry or tense or whatever because he's going and really hissed. Yeah? Yeah. But the theory of living in the moment is the second that swan turns the other way, I mean we'll never know. But he's just completely fine again. Because now the dog isn't harassing him and we have moved away and it's like it didn't happen. And it's like it didn't happen.

He certainly hasn't gone for a lie down and had to talk to a counsellor. Do you know what I mean? They live in the moment, and they simply say, right, I now, that moment's gone, I'm now in the next moment, the next moment of peace. And we don't live like that, do we? And similarly...

Imagine if someone came up to you in the park now, they didn't like the look of you, and they went, back off, right? And you backed off a bit, you walked past, we wouldn't go, that was odd, and then carry on talking like it never happened, wouldn't he? It would affect your day

that, wouldn't it? It would affect my life. It would affect his life because you'd actually throw him in the river probably knowing you, but he'd never walk again. But interestingly, Lee, I think that's interesting because obviously also Ludo, who was on the receiving end of the aggression, is equally unaffected by it, as you say. So Ludo's just like, that thing

happened and now, oh, I'm with my pack now and I've got a stick in my mouth and this is fun. But we'd be, as humans, we'd analyze it, which ironically we are now doing, but in the context of Buddhism and living in the moment. Now, look, this is a very hack-handed way of saying it. But I did notice that that's the number one fundamental thing that I have got from meditating and doing some, and I'm always very defensive about it, some very cursory reading about Buddhism. It takes, you know, some people spend years and years in their practice and their teachings. And I'm like surfing on the top of it.

I've just got a mild interest, but there are some parts of it that make me go, yeah, I get this. It feels about right. You know, it feels, it makes sense to me all this. And so when I, when I do the podcast, the very first episode, I do say, you know, that me and Neil firstly got interested in meditating,

secondly, we got interested in Buddhism. Thirdly, we stopped drinking alcohol. And then finally, we've become pretty much, almost completely vegan. And I want to know, is there truth in what we're doing, or are we just a couple of showbies-whankers? Because that is a definite possibility. Because if you'd have said to us at university,

this is what you're going to become, we'd have been appalled. Absolutely appalled. So we're on that mission, particularly me, because he's gone, I've stopped. I've been working. I've let my egoic sense. So use a little phrase, take over again as I've become more.

More. Are you laughing? I mean, you know, you want to see his conversation with me? I tell you something, and you laugh in my face. And you... Well, like that, he's got a better strap than I've got, that dog. What's your dog called Coco? Millie.

Millie, that's my daughter's name. Oh. You haven't got a son called Ludow, have you? Oh, they're getting on great, aren't they? Very nice. Who are doing, Millie? Right, come on then. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye, Millie. I'm both touched that that dog's called Millie and slightly worried now that Millie's a dog's name. My daughter's name. You know. I've just stoked my other son, Rover doesn't find how her. I mean, it was there for the take-in. I had to say it. Right, go on.

You talk in the podcast with Neil about how Neil has gone to this retreat. Yeah. And you have a lighthearted dispute about the fact that you chose not to go. And you had reasons for that, didn't you? Because you felt, well, you explain why. I don't want to give too much of the content away. It was early on in our journey, should we call it.

And he said, well, I'm going to go to retreat and learn about, I know, I've said it, all right? Judge me, I've said journey. I know. I'm hearing myself, don't worry. She's all part of the, I've bought a dog and now I'm going on a journey. You know what I mean? But you decided not to go on the retreat because you didn't want to sleep in a room with other people.

Yeah, so I said to him, oh great, do as a favour, find out they've got a twin room, and me and you will show a twin room. And he said, well, as it happens, they do have a couple of twin rooms, but you can't ask for them, you just get allotted when you turn up to a room. I said, yeah, that's sorry.

I just say, we really want a twin room. And he said, no, it goes against the ethos of what the retreat's about, about a communal living. And I wasn't being all. I didn't think it was, being all... He thought I was being what I called Lardie Dargna Graham to use an 8 half-hot mum reference. Do you remember him?

Wow. Remember the piano player? Sergeant Medi used to always said to him, look at you, laddie dog and a grim. And it's a phrase that means you're getting ideas above your station, son's of some. Who else have you got in your impersonation repertoire, Prince Charles and David Bellamy?

Neil felt there was a chance that I was saying, I can't show a room with other people, Do you know who I am? There's an element of that. Well, in fact, I'm the kind of person that before I went on television would not want to share a door with somebody else. And I think there's a lot of people would be similar to me. There's an idea that if you're on the telly,

or if you're in film, or if you're known at all, that everything about your life is dominated by that. So if a marriage breaks up in showbiz, you automatically assume that showbiz has got something to do with it. But if the milkman splits up with his wife, If you don't go, well, that'll be the hours he's doing. You know, the job is seen to take over everything. So I think it was Stephen Frye was saying that if you're in a queue of people at the supermarket

and you're not on telly and no one knows who you are, if the woman at the checkout is chattering away and having a chat with her mate who she's serving, oh, I haven't seen your phrase is, how are you? And there's a queue of 20 people. If you were to vocalise it, I'm sorry, not being rude, there's a big cue here. Would you mind crack it on a bit? everyone would secretly applaud you in their head. But if you're the bloke on the telly doing that,

they'd all be going, listen to the way Mr. TV potatoes. He's talking to that poor woman. You know what I mean? It dominates everything. So there's an assumption that that's your motive all the time. Oh, that's because of his job that he's become this monster. Yeah. You know.

Whereas we all know you were always like that. I've always been a monster. Always. But yes, I'm not going to lie. Part of it is that, as I say on the point, podcast, you know, if Neil farts during the night, soon forgotten about, if I fart in the night, I'm that bloke's anecdote, you know, every time I grew up on the telly, you know, I'm not going to say it's a big thing, but the telly will come on and I'm on and he'll go, I should have

a bit, I should have room with him once and he kept farting. Is there one big eternal energy that wants, let's call it a god for now, going, I wish more people believed in this, but to them they have to share a room first. I don't think so. I think they'll be just glad of any interest, wouldn't they? I think I would assume if someone's on that retreat, in the similar way that I'd assume if I was in group therapy or in Alcoholics Anonymous, I would trust in the motives of the people there. I agree with you. If you were at a sort of hotel in I and Napa, lads on tour, stag party, of course I would understand your reticence. But I suppose given the nature of it, I'd be surprised if those sort of people

seeking spiritual enlightenment would betray someone in that way? The betray isn't that I want people knowing. You felt self-conscious? I'm a bit self-conscious about sharing a room with people anyway, but I have to say, I'm also well aware this is worth talking about because it all comes back to the egoic mind and the idea that if anybody, even if you're not on the telly, that was a bit of a frightening noise. That was a bit like American werewolf in London and they hear the noise for the first time. They go, did you hear that? And then they go, no, did you hear what? You know, all that.

What do you think that means Lee when they make that noise? You should in case they didn't come up on your microphone. Should I impersonate what we just heard? Yeah. We just heard. Br-hm. Like that. Ludo's just give me a funny look. It means, I think it might be, it's one of two things. It's a warning sign. Is it? To us, to not go too close. Do you think?

Or it's some form of mating call which would be. be to me another reason not to go too close. We're all different. What would you rather? A deer tried to attack you or a deer tried to make love to you? Do you know, I've got a strange confession to make. Oh my God. I think it's because you've gone all Buddhist and I feel I can open up to you. I found there was something extraordinarily beautiful about that animal when I looked at it.

I felt a real connection with it. Ah, interesting. Well, that is one of the things, when you read about Buddhism and meditation, they often say that's the first glimmer. Sometimes you'll just go for no apparent reason. I can't pretend I've had this a lot, but you know, you'll suddenly go, I feel weirdly connected to that tree.

Yeah. And I don't remember I'm tired to a tree. See, can't help myself. I'm not there yet. I'm skimming the surface. But yeah, you feel connected with, and that's the whole essence of Buddhism that we're all one entity.

We're all one thing. There's no self. There's no I. I mean, there's a book called Why Buddhism is True, which looks at it in a scientific way. And I've just started reading it. It's quite interesting. They talk about things that make it more of a practical possibility rather than a spiritual leap, you know. Do you think... I mean, look at the basics of Buddhism, that you are not yourself, right? And what that means is, right, if I said to you, who are you, what would be your response to that?

I'd say, is this going for gold? And are you going to Henry Kelly? Yeah, but if you weren't trying to be really topical with your references, what would you say? Oh, hello, Mr. Milkman reference. No, you can still have milkman in 2020. But again, on my podcast, I do point out that whenever I want to go to reference point from the path, I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to be schooled in topical, updated references by Lee Matt. Yeah, but you're based on a prejudice that I've got an accent from the North West. No, that's not true. You've seen my act. Right. Now, look, the point is, it is true that I do say my podcast that if I,

I've made jokes about Tara having an affair and it's always with a milkman. because it's the go-to 1980s reference point, isn't it? The 70s and 80s. And I said to Neil, when we've done these jokes, we're both picturing the same Milton, he's got a hat on and a uniform. Do you know what I mean? He's a proper 1970.

He's sort of, there was a series of films called Confessions at all. With a guy called Robin Asquith. And I see it as that. That's the Milton of my eye. There's something comforting about it. There was an innocence about the 70s and 80s. Or so we thought. There was a purity to the adultery.

There was a purity. And also, like, carry-on films, I totally get that when you watch back, you go, how are some of this outrageous sexism I'm allowed? But I can't deny, like most people at the time, we just thought it was innocent fun. Do you know, you two? Do we suit each other? Well, you think we look like each other. That helps.

I think you seem a really good fit. You know, when you say we look like you, I know exactly what you mean, it's just the fact that we've both got big noses. Without that, I know you're being nice. about you've both got striking eyes, but you just mean we've both got quite large noses in comparison to our faces. Do you know what I think it is?

I think it's because you have a natural exuberance. And you think it's equal. And I think that you do remind me of a puppy in some senses. Do I? Yeah. Like, both in a positive and a negative. I've got all the exuberance, but you do know at some point I might just poo

when I'm not supposed to, metaphorically. I'm not going to literally poo, but you're going to go, don't do that, Lee. One thing that's always struck me about you is that I think... How can I put this? Okay, you once told me a story about how you went on tour and you decided to drive rather than let the tour manager drive. Yeah, which is...

And I did think then that you possibly... I were quite committed to being in control of situations. Correct. Does that seem a fair thing to say? Not only fair, but I would suspect if I went on tour tomorrow, that would still be the same. I went on tour last year with Rob Bryden and David Mitchell and that was only, I don't know, a year ago and again, I did all my driving, all my own driving.

Right. But, you know, so did Rob and David can't drive, so he was driven. Sure, but I would just say... But yes, I'm in control free when it comes to things like that. I'm still at the stage where if we go on holiday and we have done on the last couple of years, Tara has flown with the kids and I've met them there. And I'm including Barcelona, I'm including Switzerland.

Why? Why? Yeah. Well, you know why. You just said it. I'm a control free. They won't let me sit up front and drive it. And I've asked. I've said, yeah, of course I'll fly. Can I drive? And they've said, no. And I've said, well, forget it then I'll go in the car. They said, at the very least, can you know the basics? You don't drive a plane, you fly it. Are you scared of flying then? Of course I'm scared of flying.

I don't have a love of driving long distances that much. Oh no, I love flying. I just can't stand getting there quickly. Do you know the last time I flew? It was with Frank Skinner. I'm not saying there's a connection between me never flying again. No, I had a worry about flying, and me and Frank were asked to do a show for children in need

called Around the World in 80 Days, where you had to go around the whole world without flying, but we just do the first leg, them hand the baton over. We start in the reform club and then we end up getting to the border of Turkey and Syria and then hand the baton over and I said well that's perfect because we're not allowed to fly and I don't like flying and I really used to I still do really like Frank as a comet but didn't we know Frank that well I thought it'd be great to hang out with like you know without tennis too gushy one of my comedy heroes you know I really loved Frank's act and so I thought

what a great way to spend I had a great time with him and we went they did it One problem was, I was stupid enough to not realize, once I hand that baton over, I've got to get back, haven't I? And I thought, well, I'll get the train back. I've got the train, well, we got the train and the coach and various ways of getting there. I'll just do the same in return, but the problem is that I worked out that I would be arriving back on the afternoon of my wife's 40th birthday. And I can't say, oh, you know your big special day, I'll be getting there at lunchtime. So I went on a flying course to teach me how to be less fearful of flying

where at Heathrow you get to fly a simulated jumbo jet and it's so realistic it's what put it one way when I walked out at the end three pilots walked in because they have to be regularly tested and trained on it really and you get to have a bit of a fly and a bit of an experience now they say what do you want to do and I go well what the psychologist is there is there what is it that worries you? Give me an example.

And what is it that worries you? Well, various things, but I'll say, you know, add on collision. They go, okay, press a few buttons. The next minute, you're flying in very realistic circumstances and in the distance you see a dot. And they go, that plane is heading straight for us. And then I go, you know, just to check,

this is supposed to be relax of here. And they say, no, this is what would happen in this situation. And then they talk you through it and the plane comes towards you in the distance. they then show you what happens and then the alarm goes off and you still, when the alarm's going off in the cockpit, you still feel it's a long way away and it's still under control. So they're essentially showing you that the pilot in 99.9% of situations has a situation

under control. Under control to the point where the plane suddenly flew past us to the point where if there had have been, and I think there might have been a sort of computerised version of a pilot in the other plane, I could see him. I could certainly see the writing on the side of the plane that passed us. it was close, but yet still felt all under control. And the guy said to me, I'm a professional pilot, and in the 25 years I've been flying,

a plane has never come that close. And even then, it seemed controlled, right? And I said, yeah. And he said, now part of the course is that when you fly back, I'll talk to you on the morning of the flight, let you know exactly the conditions and what will happen during the flight. And I was relaying it to Frank. I said, right, in about five minutes,

I think we're going to hit a bit of turbulence, sure enough. had a bit of turbulence because this is what the man had told me. And it felt better flying back. But of course, then I got out of the habit of flying again. But I have to say, the flip of that is that I do believe people have lost the art of travel. And actually, even if I had no fear of flying at all, train travel is fantastic. I absolutely love it. So when I went to Barcelona last year on the train, it was one of the greatest days I'd ever had, the travelling.

So with Buddhism, presumably, the idea... God, I'm sorry to in trouble, is that the murderer again that we saw before? Oh no, this one's got kids. I like that you're distinguishing the one we saw before. But no, my point about the Buddhism thing in relation to wanting control is that my understanding of it is that one of the other basic principles of it, in Buddhism, is that what makes us unhappy, everything that makes us unhappy is to do with,

with attachment to the outcome, to a positive outcome, so that we get surprised if things go wrong. You can pretty much say that almost all things that happen to you are not the result of the thing that happened, but the result of how you reacted to it. And that's proven by the fact that you can think of some of the biggest things that have happened in your life or my life or in anyone's life. It can be as small as that parking space wasn't available.

or it can be as big as the death of a family member. The truth of the matter is, we all know people that react in a way that is different to the... I mean, look at people, the most horrific thing that can happen. You know, the murder of a child or something. I've heard there was a horrific news item where somebody was killed. And the parents came out and said, I hope that person... get better. Long prison sentence and said,

I hope that person gets better. You know, and some people say, don't they? Some people come out and say, I just want you to know that I have forgiven the murderer. They do say that, don't they? They offer forgiveness. And some people go, I want that person

executed. In fact, in America, they often try and get, if someone's trying to not get the death penalty, they will often call on the parents of the victim to speak on behalf of the murderer if they think they'll say we actually, we will be part of the plea for, it's clemency I think it's called, isn't it, where you say, you know, we don't want the death penalty. If it happened to me, that situation, I know

what I would like to believe, that I would be the true, pure, Buddhist mentality of forgiveness and love and say I accept this situation. But the reality is probably not that because I'm not that person. I'm not some pure, tranquil Buddhist. I'm a human being who would, who's not there. You know, but I like to think that it doesn't mean it's not the right goal though, you know. There are those people that fit their lifestyle around their morals and there are those people that fit their morals around their lifestyle. That's interesting. I like that. You know, and I, we all do it a bit. We all say, I believe in this, that and the other because it suits what I'm doing. Yeah.

You know, so the fact that I would realistically not be that person who does this, that and the other, in those awful situations, doesn't mean you can't strive for it and wish that that was the case. I still think it's morally the correct thing to do. So, for example, I don't believe in capital punishment. I don't believe anybody should be killed. You can be the person that says, I don't agree with capital punishment. even though you might know that if anyone did anything to my family, I'd go anger. You're allowed to have both of those feelings because you can still strive for what is right

even though your emotions will take over. I know this isn't great for the brand, as a comic, but I think you're very kind, sort of empathetic person. And so sort of what I'm saying is it doesn't surprise me in a way that you've been interested in finding out more about this whole area and a little. enlightenment and I mean I guess it's about living a bit of... Well, I'll just interrupt you and say that it's an interesting thing. I know you say comedicly when you say, I know it's not good for the brand.

I know exactly what, and I've said it myself. I joke about the fact that this isn't going to help me get the Greg's advert. Right. And I also pretend I've got a brand, but I have to say I've sort of reclaimed it, meaning, well, everyone else says it, I might as well join in. Yeah. Because when I've had very nice comments said to me, I remember Victoria, Victoria Corrin Mitchell was on Countdown with me

and the joke was by Jimmy was how you're going to get on with this Herbert today, I've been on your team. And she said, I'll have you know Lee Mack is one of the most thoughtful, intelligent people I know, but by God he hides it well, right? Yeah. And it's very nice of her to say that, but whilst at the same time, the idea that I hide it well is complete news to me. Honestly, what it really is.

When people used to say to me, I like your act, Lee, but it's very mainstream, isn't it? or opposite. I like you around and it's very mainstream, meaning it's a positive. A positive way. I just still to this day don't quite know what that means. I never went on stage with an attitude of wouldn't it be good if I had an act that was seen as being broad and that everyone would like or that was old-fashioned as well as being, whatever. I just went on did what I found was funny and so I have no concept of that. So when I'm on Wooda lie to you, the idea that David plays the,

this is what we read, me and David, that David plays the posh intellectual one and I play the brash stupid Northerner is news to me. And I think a bit to David, because 99% of what David said isn't about him being posh or Oxford-educated. I'm not saying he won't occasionally do something about that, as I will as well. But most of what we say is just, we're just being based on our accents, aren't we? On our class. Well, also, I think there's, to a degree, you're ramping up aspects of yourself when you're doing a TV performance. And I'm sure we are, but I'll tell you what, I don't, I'm not aware of it.

it most of the time. Occasion I am, but most of the time. Well, what I mean about that is that you might have had some bad news that day or you might have had, you know, you'll, I don't know, an argument with someone or whatever. And you necessarily, you can't bring that into a TV studio. So people are only ever seeing one side of you. But more importantly, they're definitely, I still believe we live in a very class-ridden society, even if we don't realize we're doing it. Do you think so?

Yeah, we all do it. We all base the idea that, you know, day. David could say, spend the whole episode saying really stupid things, and I could spend the whole episode saying really intellectual things, and I guarantee the result would still be the same at the end, that you'd probably go, he's the posh abloat and the educated guy, and he's the brash northern guy, based on accents. You know, if you, you name me one comic that sounds like they've got a strong northern accent that is also seen as the intellectual comic. Now I say to you, name a comic with a middle-class accent that's seen as an intellectual comment.

Or not even a middle-class accent, just not a northern accent. I bet your list would be longer. Yeah. Because there's a pre-assumed thing, and it's classism that's always existed. And listen, I'm not sitting here going, so why aren't I identified as... Because I know what I do.

I write jokes, I tell jokes, and jokes in themselves are seen as a thing that, to some degree, I'd often hear when I started out in comedy, comedians doing interviews going, my problem is I just can't write jokes as if they're being self-deprecating. But they weren't. What they're saying is, I'm above it.

But on the pretence that they're not. Do you know what I mean? And I used to go, oh, get off, get a life, mate. You know, don't be giving me this. My problem. You're often here comedians say it. He's the problem with me. I couldn't do any other job.

I wouldn't be capable. And you go, yes, you would. You'd just been, you're above doing any of them. a job but you want to pretend that it's some self-deprecating thing that you're not capable of working in P&Q. Come on to do a treat. Need you? Need a treat. Anyway look we got onto the subject of class and this this is it doesn't matter what people think anyway because like I was saying I tried to give you an introduction this cack-handed introduction because I

don't know anything about the subject myself and say if someone said who are you what would you say? Yeah and what was the answer to that question? You'd say your name wouldn't you? Yeah. So who are you then? You go I'm Emily Broadcaster, extraordinaire, author, podcaster and friends of the stars. Because that's what you say to me when I, that's what's on your answer and machine message. Drop that, please, drop that. But that interests me, Lee, about defining yourself, because I think for me, I think that was probably why I was a lot, not in such a great space for quite a long period of my life.

Because when someone said who are you, my reaction was to say, oh, what do you do and tell me about you? Yeah. Because I felt slightly, it's just that sense of... What do you identify us? Yeah, it's like I felt uncomfortable about it, because I didn't really identify as anything. I just would sort of... Well, this is the thing about what Buddhism concentrates on. It talks about the labels and stuff.

So on the surface level, it will say, you know, well, don't worry about, you know, saying that you are a... Whatever, broadcaster or a... Because that's not who you are. That's what you do for a living. That's not who you are as a person. Yes. But then you start getting a bit deeper with that, and it starts to get a bit screws with your head a little bit,

because then you go, and if you're going to follow through the Buddhism logic, you might even say, you're not even Emily. That's just something that your parents decided they were going to call you. That's not who you are, is it? If you are Emily, then it begs the question, who was my child for three months?

Because we didn't name him. I mean, we didn't give our children names for months. We just kept calling him the baby, because we couldn't make out what to call our children. We're not the kind of family that have ever given names whilst they're inside my wife. We have to have a look at them and check them out. I mean, a very simple level. You go, are you going to give them a boy or girl's name?

And then you go into a whole different level of label. And then when you start getting into the serious Buddhism, you start going, you're not even your body. And it gets very deep and it's very hard to understand. And you start questioning, is it pretentious or is it true? and that real Buddhists believe you're not even, this body's just a little thing you're carrying around for a while. Your true self is eternal.

And it gets very deep and very hard to understand, if I'm going to be honest. But do you think it's made you happier? I always would have, you always strike me as, you know that sunshine and showers idea of a person, which I guess I'm a bit like that, I'm either very up or very down? Yeah. You strike me as very consistently up,

but I don't know if that's the case. Well, I don't, am I consistently? I don't, it's a very hard, asking, asking if someone is happy is one of the hardest questions in the world to answer, isn't it? Are you happy? And you go, I remember when I did my book, I went to see psychiatrist because the book, as you know, was interspersed with a psychiatrist. So I went to see this psychiatrist.

Could you read the chapters and then ask me questions about the chapters? because the publisher doesn't think it's gone very deep. I can have my cake and eat it. I don't want to go deep, but if I have a psychiatrist and dispersing it, it'd look like I've made the effort whilst keeping it light at the same time and turn it into a sketch,

which is what I did in the book. But during those conversations, I remember conversations about, you know, how would you label your happiness from one to ten and all that? What a difficult question. If I said to you, how happy are you from one to ten? What is the scale you're going by?

If you say, guess the temperature in this, room, you have something to compare it to, don't you? You go, well, my living room's 21 degrees, so I'm going to guess this is a bit colder. Let's go for a 19. You've got something to go, but you've not lived in anyone else's body. So how do you know what scale you are? If we swap bodies, you might go, oh no, I'm happy than that. Or you might go, blimey, he's a lot calmer than he comes across. You just don't know, I would compare it to the most sad I've ever felt. Yeah. And I would say, right, the most sad I've ever felt. Say that was a zero.

Yeah. So today... I think you've only ever reached one. This is nine. This is a nine happiness. Yeah. That's nice, isn't it? What happiness is this for you?

Which was your podcast day that got a 10? Classic performer mentality. It's a nine, but it reads like a 10. That's the way I'll interpret it. Ludo brings it up that extra one for the 10. That's nice. Do you know what? Lee, I've loved I love spending time with Ludo.

I really think you found them. right dog for you. I have to say he's I am actually in love with my dog. Are you? Yeah, properly in love with my dog. I wake up in the morning. We've got a video camera in his, in his cage, I'm going to call it a cage. He only sleeps in it. We don't cage him up all day. And we've got a video camera and the main reason the video camera is there. So if he's up and about in the morning, I know to get down quick to let him out so he doesn't poo inside the cage. But actually, I found myself just looking at it in the morning. I looked to say, I looked to see if he's away and when he's asleep I just keep looking at it. I mean that's like when

you first meet a girl and you just like look at the photo even. And you keep her in the cage. Sleep her in the cage and they take her out for a poo in the morning. You know, Tara's totally house trained now which is lovely. Do you think you've changed? Seems getting a dog. I think it does. I think it does. I think what it does is it, it, I've always said that when you have kids, what it does is it forces you to not be selfish. It doesn't mean that you've been you become spiritually less selfish. You've got no choice. You've got to change the nappy.

You've got to feed the child. You've got to think about somebody else. And stopping thinking about yourself, even if you don't believe in any meditational Buddhism, is almost always a good thing. That's part of the reason why if you help someone else, it's not just a spiritually good thing to help somebody else. It just stops you thinking about yourself.

And when you stop thinking about yourself, I mean, have you ever done a really mundane job, digging holes in the garden. Well, no, of course you haven't. Look at a look on your face. How would I begin to do that? Do you do a really mundane job that you don't have to put any thought into?

No, it's like that Gandhi thing. Gandy always said, you know, that thing about cleaning the toilet. That was his thing, wasn't it? Was it? Yeah, he made his wife clean the toilet. He felt everyone should do that because it's kind of grounding, isn't it?

I know you well enough to know that you'd be the kind of person that would make sure that they'd personally made the phone call, not get someone else to do it, you make the phone call that books the person that book cleans your toilet. And that's why I've always liked to Emily. You're grounded. You don't get, a lot of people will get their PA to book the cleaner, but you, you will phone them yourself and you'll even show them where the toilet is and everything. And that's why you are, Emily Dee, but you're not because that's just a label.

I've loved today and I should say I thoroughly recommend your podcast. I've listened to all of them. I think the kind of people that will enjoy it, if you are properly into meditation, seriously and seriously into Buddhism, you might be disappointed. I'll be honest, because... Can you use that maybe for a quote?

Because I think that we are... You might be disappointed. You might be disappointed. However, if you're the kind of person that has a sense that there's some truth in it all, but doesn't know how to get there, because you keep going, I meditate, but I just...

I keep thinking about other things. things and I can't do it, it's a podcast for you because that's what we're like. Well, that's what I'm like. I can't. I mean, within two minutes of any meditation, I'm thinking, have I, have I fed the dog? And I used to think that before I got a dog. That's how much my mind wanders. Lee, thank you.

And bye, Ludo. Say bye. It's all right. Ludo. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.