Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Lesley Sharp

Episode Date: June 4, 2019

Emily goes for a stroll with celebrated actor Lesley Sharp and her beautiful border terrier Mrs Miggins. They talk about Lesley’s early life and how it felt to be adopted, the dogs she’s had throughout her life, juggling motherhood with theatre work and her starring role in a new Royal Court play by Jack Thorne, The End of History.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Come on, Miggins. Miggins just chased off a dog about four times the size. She's a... Come on. Stop pretending. She's a strong woman. I respect her. She is.

She is. This week on Walking the Dog, I went out with one of my favourite actors in the world, Leslie Sharp, and her beautiful border terrier, Mrs. Miggins. I've been a huge fan of Leslie's work for years. I loved her in the full Monty, in the clock. Monty in Clocking Off, in Mike Lee's films, and more recently I was really gripped by her performance in the drama about the Rochdale abuse case, three girls. Leslie's also a hugely

respected theatre actor. This woman picks up five-star reviews like I pick up dog poo. That's code for a lot, by the way, and we did our walk very early in the morning before she went off to rehearse for her new Royal Court play, The End of History, which is written by the absolutely brilliant Jack Thorne. Leslie is just beyond lovely. We met at her home in Southeast London, which was so cozy and welcoming. She's just incredibly open and honest. She talked about what it felt like to be adopted and meeting her birth mother, her bold decision to come to London at 18 to become an actor,

and the reality of juggling motherhood with theatre work. I had such a lovely morning with Leslie, and I really hope you enjoy our chat. I'm off to book tickets now to see her and David Morrissey and Jack Thorns The End of History at the Royal Court. And if you want to do the same, go to Royal Court. Court Theatre.com. It runs from the 27th of June. And if you see a woman standing at the stage door, shouting, Leslie, will you be my friend? That'll be me. I'm playing it pretty cool. I'll stop talking now and hand over to the wonderful woman herself. Here's Leslie. Come on, Mrs. Miggins. Leslie, I have to say this is the best named dog I think I've ever met in my life, Mrs. Miggins.

Really? Well, where does Mrs. Miggins come from? Well, the name was in Blackadder and she rang the pie shop. So that's kind of where it, I think, entered my consciousness as a name for the dog. But we just, a month ago, our oldest, our older dog died. She was nearly 16. and she was sweep. Her name was sweep and she was sweepie girl. And so she was sweepie girl, so we had Mrs. McGin.

So we had a Mrs. and we had a girl. Oh, I'm really sorry. That must have been really tough. God, it was horrible. Was it? Yeah, it was really awful. I mean, the thing is that she is that, you know, it was totally expected because she was nearly

16 she was sort of like coming down now as we're going as we're walking to the rye now. Yeah. She would be in um, you know, I got one of those little dog prams from Amazon because um she found walking on the pavement really tough. She was all right on grass and things, but, you know, and she got tired. And, and although she was quite sort of bony. Yeah. By the end of her life, she was quite heavy to carry home if she gave up the ghost. So I got this little trolley for. So having a drunk boyfriend. Yeah. But she was like a queen in this chariot being pushed down the road to... And I almost feel like I want to have said to all these people on your behalf, I'm not one of those... Yes, I know. I know.

I'm not going to say women, because that's offensive, that stereotype. I'm not one of those human beings. Yes. Who takes my dog around in a pram because I've got too much of time and money. Exactly, exactly. Oh, sweet. Well, we're doing this podcast in many. memory of sweepie girl.

I'm sweepie girl. Yeah, so it was absolutely awful, Emily, because although, you know, she was very old and she, you know, it was difficult to get us to eat and she was on all this medication for a heart problem and all this sort of stuff. So it was expected that, you know, she was coming to the end of her life. Yeah. But nonetheless, when it happened,

I was shocked at how physical the pain was. Really? Yeah. And also, I was also quite shocked at the unreasonable voice that kept saying to me, there's been a mistake. There's been a mistake. And actually, I just need, I need her. back so I just

if someone could just get that to happen I just need I just need and and it's part of the family yes it's a family member yes and and then there's another part of you

that's going oh goodness you know terrible things are happening in the world and this is a dog and an old dog it wasn't it wasn't unreasonable that you know she reached the end of her life but um you know it's it is the nature of grief.

It is, and I always think, I've lost people. And, you know, a friend said to me, when I lost sort of, you know, my, my family, basically, and a friend said, I was talking about the dog dying, and then said, oh, apologised immediately. Yeah. And I said, do you know what, grief is grief, loss is lost. Yes. It doesn't matter what it is, you know. It's just, that's how you feel, you know.

Yeah. And I, and also, you know, I think Miggins is. felt it quite sorely because she's all her life she's had sweep around and Sweet was always a little Miggins was always a little bit keener on Sweet than Sweet was on her. It's funny, thanks, you know who I work with. He has the concept. He always says this. There's always the adored and the adora in the relationship.

And he said that dynamic shifts sometimes. I said, which one are you? He said, well, which one do you think? Of course I'm the Adora. So that's how it should be. I think the man should adore the woman. But we should... Leslie, I feel I've plunged straight into a conversation with you

because you've got that very sort of warm vibe and I can't explain it. But I just liked you on site. Oh, that's nice. And I thought, oh, I like her. She's going to be my friend. I went straight into a full-on chat and I didn't even introduce you.

I should say, I'm with the very wonderful Leslie Sharp, who I'm a massive fan of. And she's invited us round to her place. Can we say whereabouts it is roughly? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in Peckham. We're in Peckham. And we've got, you've heard the story, obviously, of poor old Sweepie,

who's no longer with us, but Mrs. Miggins is. And she's a border terrier? Yeah, she's a border terrier. But at the moment, she looks a little bit like a fat rat. She looks like a fat rat, and her tail looks like, E.T.'s finger, you know, when he points at Elliot and says E.T. Go home. She's kind of like... She's very soft.

Yeah. She's... But, you know, the thing about border terriers is that they do look, you know, they've got lots of sort of fur, and they look like those little Ewoks from Star Wars and stuff, and then they go to the dog groomers, and they suddenly look like, well, they look... Well, she looks odd. She's... She is absolutely adorable. She's the sweetest, sweetest thing.

Oh, look at that one, Leslie. What's that kind of dog? I don't know. It looks like a fox, doesn't it? This is so pretty around here. Yeah. So is this a morning regular thing for you, the dog walk? Yes.

Really? Yeah, yeah. There's actually quite often, there's a group of women that we all meet. at the gates here at the Oval. There's a dog walker's WhatsApp group and we all sort of meet and we walk around the rye and... How lovely! And yeah, yeah.

So yes. That's so nice. Depending, you know, work dependent. Yeah, because you're busy and stuff as well. Yes. You always seem to be working. Well, yeah, I know, but that's such a... You know, I think sometimes it looks like that,

especially with filming jobs. because, you know, things come out all at the same time and it looks like you've been... But actually, you couldn't have had six months where you've not done anything. And then suddenly all of this work comes out. I mean, even though we're going to talk about your incredible career, but even though you're super successful as an actor,

do you ever get the fear still? You know, even at your level, do you ever think, oh God, I hope I'm going to get work? Yes, all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not so much... I mean, I think the thing is that it's... Oh, Mrs. Megan's...

There's a poop. Do you know, as a fellow dog owner, I'm conscious that leaving the poo there, there is no greater crime. We're just having a look for really well to... Miss is Megan's poo. Hang on a second, there's a fly. How's your poo-poo, Megan's?

Mrs. Megan's is looking for it. There it is. Do you know, Leslie spent, I think it was five years. one of my favourite detectives on TV, so it doesn't surprise me that she managed to find that food. Come on you, next time you do your poos, make them a little bit more visible. Okay? So you were saying the fear.

You still have that sense of... Yes, yes, you... I hope the phone rings. Yes, and also, you know, it's not just about... Yeah, it's not just the kind of... Oh God, I want to work, I want to work. It's like what you're really hoping is that, you know, something's going to come through that's really great, you know? Because you want to do something with people who are really good, you know, a really great writer, a really fabulous director, you know, a really cool group of actors that whose work you think is great.

And, you know, you want to keep moving forward, I suppose, is what I'm good. getting at. So that's what you're keeping your fingers crossed for. And do you, I want to go back to when you got into acting initially, but you grew up in Farnby, is that right? Yes. Yeah, in between Southport and Liverpool. Yeah. And did you have pets when you were growing up? Yeah, we had initially, um, this really lovely dog called Major, who was like a, he was like a cross black lab. Should we go this way? Yeah, shall we?

Yeah. Through the field. He was like a cross black lab and collie and terribly intelligent, very protective, lovely dog. And then he died when I was about nine. And then we got this Basset hound that... like Basset Hans. They're very comical. So they're something inherently funny about them?

Absolutely hilarious. So this dog with these ears called Shammie. And she... Look in the names. I like your name. Well, she came with her name, Shammy, because she was a sort of... She was kind of rescued from this family who... Oh, that's the... that's the... Boy's school over there. They're just going in. Oh, really?

Yeah. So we had Shammy and then Shammy, Shammy departed when I was like 19. Okay. And then that was it until we got, dog-wise, that was it until I got sweep in 2003. Oh! Miss McGins is very fearless. That dog's a lot bigger than her. Oh, McGins!

Come on, Miggins. Miggins just chased off a dog about four times the size. She's a... Come on. Stop pretending. She's a strong woman. I respect her. She is.

So, yeah, so you had... It's interesting, when you tell me that, and I think of the Labrador, and I think of what I always call a dog family, which I was never part of because I grew up with actors. And sort of, you know, that sort of performing slightly bohemian, did set up so we moved around a lot okay but I've already been into your home and even though you're a performer and I know your partner is I I can sense it's an organised lovely calm house I can tell that whereas we didn't have that so and that's just that moving around so when you described that

to me I think of what I used to think of as a dog family the Labrador and your dad was a tax worked in the tax office but then of course you were adopted weren't you so it's sort of and you've lost your mum at quite a young age so it wasn't a dog it wasn't a traditional childhood in that sense was it? No no not at all

and you know and it wasn't a particularly it wasn't like a dog household in the way that you know I think of dog households now I mean I remember when I was a kid there were dogs that sort of like walked on the streets and things on their own without you know and you don't really see that anymore. You know, and Major used to be a bit of a, you know, if a car was,

he'd chase after a car, you know, that sort of doesn't happen anymore. The gangs of dogs. Yes. They would just wander the streets like the teet of the huds. Yes. And, you know, the dogs in our, I mean, not Major so much, I think, because he was there when I came along. But Shammie, certainly, because I, after Major died, I think I went on and on and on and on and on about getting another dog. And my sister was 10 years older than me. So, you know, it was almost like being an only child. And I went on and on and on about getting a dog. And so it was kind of under sufferance, really, that Shami joined the household.

And then, you know, I left home at 18. Yeah. And I think my dad, as a widower was a bit annoyed about being left with this sort of ancient slightly down at heel basset hound that he had

to saw the dog Shammie sort of commandeered a chair in the corner of the living room and my dad had to saw the legs of the chair down by you know, a foot or something so that this animal could get up onto the chair

without any help. Because, you know, she was starting, her back legs were starting to go and all the rest of it. And my dad did it. So, you know, he was, he wasn't, he was perfunctory, shall we say, in the way that he... His relationship with animals. Yeah, you know, so it wasn't kind of like the dogs were, I mean, I love them. I love dogs. I absolutely loved them.

I really was interested in stuff that you've said about being adopted. And I saw you're who do you think you are. And I think it's great that you were sort of open about that. Well, do you know what, Emily? Something quite interesting about who do you think you are is that one of the reasons that I wanted to do it was because I wanted to, Because for that general, I think there's quite a lot of people of my general, you know, like older people who were adopted, who, you know, the whole thing about being adopted was that it was about shame. It was about shame for the women who gave their children away. And then also when you were growing up, maybe you kind of kept it a bit quiet because being adopted meant that you didn't quite belong.

You know, you were sort of in a family, but you weren't really theirs. and you were kind of tacked on. And, you know, it was this whole sort of weird thing. And I sort of thought that maybe by being open about the fact that I was adopted would just make a conversation possible. And that maybe for some women who were still living, who had given their children up for adoption, that that might, you know. So that was one of the reasons why I was,

why I did it but then in the end actually because of this the line that they went down I felt kind of terrible about it did you yeah I did because I was the result of a of an affair that my mum had with a with a married man and he'd never told his family about what has happened. I mean, he knew, he knew, it was quite a long affair, and he knew that I'd been born, and he also knew that my mum was giving me up for adoption.

Yeah. So he, I think when he died, because he was dead by the time the program was being made, you know, I think he probably, you know, he knew that I'd been born and that I'd been given up for adoption, He didn't know whether I was still alive, I don't think. But he didn't tell his family.

And I've had a half brother and a half sister who were a lot, lot older than me. And they, they, the program makers decided to go down that route because obviously, you know, they've got an agenda with, you know, finding a narrative to tell a story. And I think you're great TV. Yeah. Whereas, yeah. And then I felt terrible about that. Did you? Yes, I did.

felt absolutely terrible because I just felt it's all very well to sort of, you know, talk about, you know, talk about your things. Yeah. But when it involves crashing in on other people's lives and, yeah, I did. I felt, I felt very bad. And they were so gracious and kind to me about it. But you couldn't have known, you know, going into that as well. It was a discovery and a journey for you, I suppose, which was what was.

Yeah, complicated. Yeah, I did. I felt, yeah, I felt, I felt very bad about it. And then also, I felt like, oh, God, it's that thing of sort of opening Pandora's box, you know, you open the lid and then that's it because nowadays, everything is online. It's not like the olden days when, you know, if people wanted to find out about you, they went down to the library and they spoole through micro-fish or whatever it was called. That was on all the detector dogs.

Yes, that's it. 20 years older. You'd have been doing all the... There was always someone with microfinition and they'd find an article from 20 years ago. But now you're just at the clicking on the button. You know, that's the thing is that it always... So these things come back, you know,

and you've got to be so... You know, actually it's one of the things that you... that I feel so sort of... I feel... You know, you feel like you kind of want to... say to young actors and actresses, just be careful about what you say. And that thing as well of, I suppose,

putting their relationships as well and their family, you know, you've always been quite... I mean, I'm not even going to say private. I don't think that's private. I just think that's... there's a line between your work life and your home life. And I sort of understand that

because I think I do see people doing sort of Instagram stories of I'm putting really intimate moments that I propose them and things on social media. Yeah. And you think once that's shared, that's never yours again, that moment. Do you know what to mean?

It becomes a public moment. But that's really interesting what you say, and I understand that, but you talked about that sense of feeling other, which I think is really interesting. Yeah, I think it makes you, I don't know what it's like now because adoption has changed so much.

You know, I mean, when I was up for adoption, it was like there were loads and loads and loads of babies available for adoption because it was a time when, you know, when women weren't, when a lot of women, working class women had no option because they just didn't have the money, you know, they couldn't stop working. They couldn't, they weren't supported by the state.

There was, you know. And there was a disgrace attached to it. Yes, absolutely. My mum told me, my mum told me that she used to, you know, it wasn't, she felt that she brought disgrace on the family. And when she went for her doctor's appointments, she used to walk, you know, through the back streets with a great big coat over her stomach. And she went into a mother and baby home where all of these other girls were that, you know,

they were all sort of like, I mean, in sort of dormitories, giving birth and then just, and then my aunt. A common way that was sort of our lifetime, essentially. You know, the fact that that was going on so recently. Yes. Pooh? I know we. We.

Sorry, that wasn't. No, it's okay. No, it's okay. No, she, when she whee's sometimes she does look like she's pooing. I know. She does the, what I call the Peter Crowe. Oh look, there's another one. Interesting.

It looks like it's having a hard time. It's been there for a while. I used to have some fruit invite that. He's joined us now this dog, by the way, Leslie. There's a black. She relieved itself. But you did speak to your mom and you got back in touch with her, didn't you? Yeah, yeah.

And she was like in my life, you know. She came to my wedding. She, you know, she was, she saw my children growing up. you know she she died over 10 years ago but yes she was part of my life so and was your adoptive mum okay with that or had she your mom died by that stage before then my adoptive mom died when I was 15 so she she but my dad was still alive and he was incredibly generous and welcoming and you know, understanding and wasn't kind of, didn't feel undermined or threatened by it.

No, no, not at all. And did you, because I know your background was, you know, your dad worked in, he was a tax inspector, wasn't he? And was that considered quite unusual to go into performing and acting? Well, it wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't thrilled. because, you know, his whole thing, you know, it was a double whammy. It was London, which was, you know, are you sure about London? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, he was from Edinburgh, but, you know, London was like the place where people get lost and go wrong for him, I think. So he wasn't keen about London. And also he just said, you know, what are you going to? I think he thought, how is this going to work out? How are you going to support yourself? So I don't think he held out much hope for me bagging a man who was going to just, you know, throw wads of notes at me. I think he thought that, you know, my life might be complicated. And it just, it wasn't a good idea.

And also he said, you know, the thing is that you've got, you know, I've heard of actors and actresses and they don't pay their tax and they get into the most awful trouble. They get into the most awful trouble. You know, never, never, never ignore a brown envelope. Never, you know, it was like all of these kind of. And actually, you know, apart from the, apart from his, you know, his, you know, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his. lessons in life being revolving often around the way that you manage money yeah he he he also I think he also gave me a sense of you know take responsibility take responsibility for yourself take responsibility you know I mean it was kind of a

feminist thing yeah you know it was a sort of like well you know yes if you're gonna do that if you are going to do that then you have to be aware that the these might be problems. So you're going to have to work it out. He didn't sort of, he didn't sort of say, you know, if you're going to be an actress and it all goes wrong, darling, it's all grand. Come home and I'll sort it out.

Or I'll sort it out. He kind of went, you know, it's very sweet. Is that a fox terrier? I think it is. It's ever so sweet. It is very nice. It's like one of those dogs on wheels, isn't it? I know.

I always think they're very sort of 1940. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I can amount of quite sort of even enlightened those kind of dogs. So yeah, so your dad, that's interesting. I think all actors should be born into those kind of families. Because it gives you the necessary tools, which you need. Because I'm really glad your dad didn't. I mean, we used, I always say, we used sort of red tax bills as champagne coasters in my house. I was like, what are these? And we're just throwing them away. And we'd have the tax man turning up and we'd give him wine. He was like someone we knew, like in a little. land revenue, and in the days when you could do that, you could use charm to get out of paying bills.

But I think it sounds like your dad gave you instilled... Yeah, he did. I mean, there was one year when, you know, I was working in the theatre, you know, the, I think I'd worked at the Royal Court and maybe the Donmar warehouse. Yeah. You know, they were paying the same wages in 1980. five that they pay now I think it was sort of like yeah yeah you know it's like 200 quid a week then and it's like 400 500 quid a week now yeah people are always shocked

when you when you reveal these figures because they imagine that if you're working in the theatre in london that um you know you're yeah you're being paid a fortune but you know no 500 quid a week um and anyway i got a tax bill for the year year, that year I think, it was for £200 and I couldn't pay it. Did you know your dad? Well, no, I mean, I did what my dad told me, which was I phoned up the tax office and spoke to someone and said, I've got, I'm in terrible trouble. I want to pay my tax bill, but I'm not working.

And if I do work again, it will be for £200 a week and I can barely pay my rent. and they sort of said, okay, and we worked out this thing where I paid them back five pounds a week. So you did what your dad said, which you didn't ignore them. You know, I wish I'd known you because you could have called us. We knew all of them. I mean, they loved us. You obviously had a relationship with them. We had to.

They had so much money. We had no choice. But did you, that's really fascinating actually. And I, you know, I get this sense of you, know, you know, I know, know, what I do about you, I know that you went to, you end up going to Guildhall and you left home at 18. Yes. You hadn't long lost your adoptive mum.

No. That's quite a bold thing to do, isn't it? Yes, yes. To go to London and think, right. Yes, but I think, you know, sometimes you just, you, you kind of, I mean, I always had the sense that although, you know, I love my, I love my dad. and mum very much but I always had the sense that I needed to be somewhere else and

it's and it wasn't interesting form beat well hang on a sec she's she's doing a poo poo she is you're doing a poop she's doing another boop good girl no not that's not for you another dog I'm walking in tears. Oh. Oh. Well, don't, Megan's. Good girl.

Good girl. Good girl. Oh, she's really lovely. She's quite a Zen little dog. Oh, you darling. She's a sweetheart. So that's interesting, yeah, that idea of thinking, right, my destiny is somewhere else. Yeah, but I think a lot of people feel like that.

I think that people want to come to cities like London. I imagine, you know, if you grow up in a, you know, if you're in a, you know, if you're in a, I mean, we all go, oh my God, Tuscany, Tuscany, but, you know, if you grow up on a hillside in Tuscany and you want to be an actress, you're thinking, I want to go to Rome, I want to go to Rome. It's the same everywhere. Yeah.

Well, crucially, I think a certain type of person probably feels that and people who end up acting or performing in any way. You know, being an artist, you know, having a conversation. There is a sense of feeling other, I think, when they're younger in some way, or just not part of their environment, if you like. I think it's about finding your tribe, Emily. I think that's what it is.

And there's more chance of landing in a gang that feels like, oh, right, yes, this makes sense. I think if there's more people around, and that's cities, isn't it? And did you feel that as soon as you went to drama school and got into acting? you thought right, I've arrived. I just, when I got to Guildhall, I just thought, oh, thank God, thank God, thank God. It was like that thing of sort of like scrambling over a boat, you know, when you've been,

and you're trying to get, and you just go, oh, God, Hugh. I do always feel that with actors, I think, because I grew up with them and I feel, I feel, I feel like I'm getting into a warm bath. It's like, oh, so when I go to the National Theatre, I sit down, I think, oh, it's okay, it's all going to be okay. So after that, I mean, you were discovered on paper, it looks like it was quite meteoric and it's like, you know, you were, I know you worked with Jim Cartwright and you were at Rita Sir and Bob too was what everyone thinks of as your first big role that sort of catapulted you to

success really, would you say? Yeah, I mean, and Full Monty was sort of after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the thing is that it's like you keep, you go and you do jobs in the theatre that you care passionately about and you get, you know, you try to get better at what you're doing. And then every now and again you do a job and it's you can't, you don't know why, but it's like one of those things that catches fire a bit. And then people take notice of it and they start talking about it. It's like, you know, like killing it. or Chernobyl at the moment, you know, where everyone's kind of saying, oh my God. It becomes the thing, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so you fingers crossed,

you know, you get a few of those along the way. And then what that means is that, you know, other people that you really want to work with ask you to work with them. So, you know, that's how it all kicks off. But I would say that really, you know, you know, know, when I was a young actor, because I was working at the Royal Court, is that you've got a lot of people coming to see stuff at the Royal Court. And, you know, you get a lot of great writers there who then go on to do, you know, so of course, Jim Cartwright, you know, he wrote Road. But then that meant that Alan Clark, who directed Rita Sue and Bob Too,

came to see, you know, and Mike Lee came. You know, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're suddenly part and parcel of that whole, that world. Did you know you were good? Do you understand when you were starting out? And for example, working with Mike Lee, I imagine as an actor would be an utterly thrilling but also quite frightening experience. Yes. It's different for an actor, isn't it?

There's more reliance on you to sort of contribute, you know. Yeah, no. No, I mean, I think the other thing, because I was going to say about, you know, that whole... notion of getting to drama school and going, oh, thank God, thank God, thank God. Yes. That is just the beginning, actually. Because what happens is that the acting world as a career structure is not linear. So it's not like being a teacher and working through to a point where maybe you become a headmaster or a headmistress.

or a lawyer where you know you start as a junior and then you can become a barrister and then you know if you really want you can you can try to be a QC or a judge it's not like that so what happens is that it's like getting on a roundabout and every now and again the roundabout goes really fast and a load of you get chucked off you know and it sort of happens mid-20s when you know you've got you've kind of you come out of drama school and you're young and gorgeous and and and and and and and and you're sort of happens mid-tweens when you know you've got you've got you've kind of you come out of drama school and you're young and and and and and and People are going crazy because there's loads of roles for young girls and boys and stuff. And then suddenly, you know, you're in your mid-20s and there's a whole load of other new people coming out of drama school. And suddenly, actually, you're not required anymore. You get batted off. If you're a woman and you, in addition to acting as a career, you fall in love and you want to have children, the next one is having children because actually it's not a very family friend. business because you go away, you know, the childcare situation is hard because you're

working odd hours and if your partner is also freelance. Both of you are trying to sort of make it work and if you don't have parents who can help out, you know, and you're working in the theatre, you don't have the money to pay. You often... What did you end up doing with your boys then? God, it just, well, it was... Do you just get a child? No, you just caught, we used to go to the theatre with my mum.

Did you? Yeah, well, I've done that, you know. Yeah. Taken my kids with me to the, on set, and then asked a friend if they could, you know, come with me. And, yeah, it's, you cobble it together, really. And, but it can be, it's, it's, it's horrible. It can be horrible. It can be really horrible. Sometimes you just feel like you're not doing anything very well at all. You're not looking after your children in the way that you think you should look after them.

And you're not doing your job in the way that you want to be doing it. But then I think women are quite hard on themselves sometimes. Yes. Because I think there are a lot of expectations and it's just assumed. Because it's expected, it's like you just do all this. And I don't have kids. But when I look at my friends and women like you who juggled busy careers with children, I mean, my producer who does this show, I sort of think,

well I think, oh, I've got to get here, the traffic is bad. I'm like, well, she's got a baby to sort out as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw all. I'm always in all. But the thing is that, and the thing is that for a lot of women, you know, if you're not, if you, if your work exists mainly in the theatre, it becomes this, it becomes impossible. Because you're not being paid enough money to pay often another woman to look after your children. Yeah.

And also, this. The amount of the way that your brain, I don't know whether it's a hormonal thing or a tiredness thing, but certainly after you've had children, you get split focus concentration. And then actually having the focus to sort of go on stage to do that thing without worrying about a whole, are they okay? Did they get picked up? Did they have their tea? Have they done their homework? you know, without all of those voices going on in your head when you've got to sort of like go on stage and keep it together.

And particularly the kind of work that you do. Because, and that's not sounding overly grand, but you know what you mean? You're not just, you're not sort of doing, say your lines get paid and go home kind of stuff. And there is someone like, you know, you, I just like the idea of you in sort of a check off plate thinking, oh shit, do I do the baby bottles?

Well, do you have moments, right? Well, I did. I did. I mean, it gets easier as they get older. Well, it transforms into something different. But the thing is that what happens, I think, is that a lot of women go missing because they, you know, they just get chucks off the roundabout because they go,

actually, do you know, it's not sustainable. Yeah. So they choose to do something that works better. And that continues, I think, that whole thing. people in our industry, they just kind of get to a point, or the work stops, or there isn't enough interesting work, or, you know, it's just, it's just not linear, is the point that I'm rambling on about. No, I think it's a good point because, but I do think looking at the work that you've done, I always think you have, there's a vulnerability in whatever role you're playing,

but I think there's a dignity. Do you know what you mean? And it's the two, I think Stephen Graham has that as well, you know, the virtue of that. Yes, yes. It's that thing of being able to play someone and it's something I've noticed every time I see you in anything, whether it's in three girls or whether you're on clocking off or whether you're doing Scott Bailey or

anything. It's, every character has a sort of dignity, you know, and that's a, that's a tough thing, but I think it's about the complexity of showing women is complex, you know? Yeah, I, I mean, it's definitely, definitely kind of motored up

a lot since I started working, you know, the way women are regarded. And I think, you know, I'm in awe of young women like Lena Dunham and Phoebe Waller Bridge who have just really pushed the envelope in the way that they, that they're saying, look, you know, being a young woman is not just about having sort of long blonde hair and big boobs it's actually about it's actually about being as difficult and complicated and irritating and annoying and delightful and you know feeling as frustrated and as vicious as some of the men that we've seen on screen it's just that actually you know usually what happens in in dramatic stories is that women are appendages to those stories rather than being at the center of those stories

And I think that, you know, there is an appetite because 50% of viewers who go to the theatre and the cinema and watch telly are women. Of all different ages and social demographics. And they want to see stories that represent their lives. And fortunately, it seems that that's being cottoned onto. and we're seeing more of it, you know? And did you have a sense when you've worked with, because you've worked with some extraordinary sort of directors and writers, do you go into processes like that feeling, right,

I want to sort of bring my own, put my own stamp on this, or I'm going to learn from them, or how confident are you? You know, again, when you're working with someone like Mike Lee, which, how, what was your approach going into that? I mean, you know, the thing about working with Mike is that it's Mike who, you know, Mike takes shoulders the responsibility for all of his process. So, you know, even if he doesn't know exactly how a story is going to land, he's got some idea of where it might go because otherwise he could never cast the thing, you know? Yeah. So, and there are large parts of a story that you've got and you've got no idea what's.

going on with anybody else and you you know you have to keep stum about it stum about what you're doing you know so um mike's thing is is kind of different um and is a process and a and and has a has a has a has a is a law unto itself but everything else really he said what was the piece of advice he gave to you oh god i loved it something about a career yes he just said he just said there is no such thing as a career did you tell thanks mike yeah well I've left a really nice stable home. Retrospectively, absolutely illuminating, brilliant and accurate. At the time, I didn't really kind of fully understand it,

but yeah, I do get it now. But everything else really is governed by what people write. All you can do is engage with what's on the page. And writers, the majority of writers that you work with, are really, you know, they're artists themselves. So you can't sort of like go in and say, do you know, I don't like this line. Yeah, do you mind if we fiddle around with this?

It's a bit disrespectful. And I think that there's more of a literary tradition in this country than maybe they're, you know, they do all that thing on telly in the States where they have showrunners and, although, I mean, you know, God, it's a, I mean, that some of the stuff that's coming out of, America is just incredible. Remarkable. You were talking about writing.

Yeah. And we have a friend in common, and that's Jack Thorne. Yes. Who has written the play that you're about to star in which I'm coming to see. I'm very exciting. Oh, great. I'm writing myself. I don't know.

Jack hasn't said, I'm allowed to see it. I'm just going to turn up. The end of history. The end of history, it's called. It's at the Royal Court, which is probably around. Is it sort of your 30th anniversary? Has that happened, that's been and gone, has it? Around, well, you first started working.

No, no, no, it's been and gone. Yeah, that was been and gone. It was like 1985 that I did that I first worked at the Royal Court. So, yeah, it's like, and it's always been a sort of home from home for you. Yes. You know, you do a lot of work there. Yes.

How, when you get an offer from someone like Jack Thorne, which, I mean, it's not that he called you up and said, hi, Leslie. Yeah. But we should say, I mean, most people, I'm sure will be familiar with him. and his brilliant work. He's amazing. He's extraordinary. I mean, he's written the virtues.

Which I love. With Shane Meadows. Yes, he works with Shane Meadows a lot. There's Stephen Graham's in. He wrote Kiry. He wrote National Treasure. He's responsible for the... Harry Potter and Jack and John Tiffany.

We're doing his PR for him. For God take this is about you. He's extraordinary. I mean, he's amazing. He's a wonderful writer. He's a beautiful writer. And the play itself, how does it work? I mean, do you get sent it or do you just talk about it?

Well, John Tiffany, who is directing it. And John and Jack worked, I mean, they've worked together. They did let the right one in at the court together. They've done various stage things together. But they also did the Harry. They're like the hands and deck of the theatre. Yeah, they are, really. So John, John sent me Jack to play and said, you know, do you want to be in this?

And I sort of like read it and said, you bet you. I love the sound of that because it sounds a bit like my family. Because it sounds a bit, I mean, we won't say too much about it, but is it sort of... It's about a friendly socialist parent. Yeah, yeah. They are, yeah, I mean, they are... They're fantastic.

David Morrissey and I are playing husband and wife. So we're playing, and it goes over three decades. So it's 97, 2007, 2007. Clothes, I'm looking for. 2017. And they have three kids, two boys, one girl. And so you see this family evolve over three decades. and their conversations.

And the couple are 10 years older than me and David. So they're in their 40s in the 90s. Oh, okay. And basically they are from a generation where they believe that being a good member of society and being left of centre meant that. you went out into your community and you engaged with your fellow man. So it's all about how you take responsibility, how you take responsibility for the world that

you live in. It's about continually pushing the way that you see the world that you live in, that you push those around you, you push the people that you love. And sometimes that is a really fantastic thing. And sometimes it's a pain in the fucking arse. And it's great because it really, it bites into all of those things. And it's funny and it's clever and it is absolutely relevant to what is going on all around us in the UK at the moment. You know, where people are saying, how do we manage this?

How do we find a way through this? How on earth are we going to ever come to... You know, it's like civil war, isn't it? Yeah. The way that it's... This whole Brexit thing has cut down the middle of families. Yeah. Yes, it's interesting, and I suppose it's that thing of principles and values and...

And I suppose because we live increasingly, I think, in a world where they're absolute. Everything is an absolute. Yeah. So you believe this or the other. Come on. Come on, dolls. Oh, well, I'm so excited. you're working with Jack

because he's an extraordinary man and I think you're probably my favourite actor in Britain today so I'm honestly honestly I'm such a huge fan everything you've done I just I think whatever you do you make it shine

you know you know some of Jack sings that he said in his quotes I find them like poetry you know I actually and when I lost my family and there was a thing Jack said that we always stayed with me and it's from the Harry Potter and the cursed child and it says

there are some things death cannot touch those that we love never truly leave us and I loved that and I always sort of gave me real comfort and I thought god that's just a line of dialogue in a play for him but to me that's like poetry you know it's incredible well I'm very excited and I'm definitely going to come and see it and are you um so you're Your day at the moment, you strike me as quite organised last day. I get this impression. You were like, 7.30 we met for our dog walking. You look amazing.

I'm just... Do you run a tight ship at home? Yes, that means. No. No. No, I mean, I think the thing is that I feel like I'm... I feel sometimes like I'm trying desperately to... put sandbags as the water is coming under the door.

It's like I'm throwing them down. It's like firefighting because sometimes I feel like my brain is so woolly. It's so beautiful. It looks like one of those fantasy houses in a rom-com. Like you go in there and you think, oh, this is the family I want. No. No, my husband said when we first got together and he came to a flat that I lived in, he said that he was expecting it to be like, you know, Juliette Stevenson and Allo

Rickman in truly madly deeply he thought that it was going to be key limbs on the floor and sort of open fireplaces and sort of artfully arranged um you know fruit and uh you know big squashy chairs but you know as i was saying to you earlier emily i i was working at the royal court for 200 pounds a week and what was it like well he sort of like walked in and kind of like he said you know i did I didn't tell you at the time, but he was really, really, really shocked and disappointed. Were the two... That was his trip advisor review? Shocked and disappointed.

Because it was basically this broken, horrible brown sofa that the people who lived there before had left. And, you know, sort of really scuzzy, awful brown... that I didn't know what to do with and it was a mess. Well, you've made up for it, but I was a mess. But you're quite, I wonder if that's from your dad. You know, that's sort of quite. Yeah, and I also think it's that the whole thing that we were talking about, which Charlie, I'm sure, knows, which is that actually,

if you don't have organisational skills pre-children, you start, you start, you start developing them. I'm getting a lot of name checks. Yeah. Yes, I can see that. You have to keep it going, don't you? And presumably, you know, your mum... Was it your mum and your dad who were active?

Yeah, my dad was an arts reporter. He did a show called Late Night Line Art, for Joan Bacquil. So he would be Elf at night doing all that. And then my mum was an actor, but she was theatre, and she would... But then that must have taken some organisation, you know, getting you to the theatre

and making sure that you were all right. But I think they were just very sort of... It was a different, you know, I always have this thing that I think people who grew up in the 70s, which I did, and particularly children in that sort of acting world, where, so when you have kids, you become the frame and your children become the picture. Whereas my parents, I always say they remained, not just the picture, but the Jackson Pollock of a picture. I mean, it was a full-on picture. Well, that's kind of like the parents that, you know, that's absolutely part of a familial, dynamic that's on the go in the play.

Well this is, as soon as I read it, I thought, has Jack snuck into my sort of family back catalogue? Is that what it was like? Yeah, just that philosopher's talking. It was always very, I remember it was men talking about, men in big 70s airplane collars talking about feminism. Wow. And then saying to my mother, can you go to some nuts, love?

Leslie, I'm just so loved this walk and I love your dog. Miggins is so lovely. And I like this area. It's beautiful, actually. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel very, very lucky. I mean, I, you know, because I didn't grow up in London. I still get a thrill out of living in this city.

Do you? Yeah, I do. Absolutely. Do you get recognised? No, no, no, no. You must do a bit. Every now and again. And I suppose when you're in, you know, you were talking about those dramas.

It's more like if you've been on tech, you know, that whole thing of being recognised. I think and people coming up and going, oh, you're in, you're in, you're in, happens more if you've just been on the telly. Yeah. And I think it's really, you know, if you're in a soap, I think that that's a big deal. But I also think that, you know, in London, people are very kind of, you know, like, oh, it's that bird off the telly. Well, it's right, when you're in it, so what? So what?

So if you're, when you're in sort of clocking off or when you're in three girls or when you're in Scotland Bailey and it's on TV or living the dream, it's like, I think it feels recent, doesn't it? That's part of my life at the moment. Yes, yes. And people are very nice, you know. There's only, I think there's only ever been one horrible thing, which was we were on holiday in Turkey. Yeah.

And just having a family dinner. And you know that thing where you've just come off the beach and you look at absolute fright? And people, this, you know, woman was sat and she was just kind of like filming us all. It was just sort of like, oh, don't do that. It's really odd that, isn't it? Yeah, it's weird.

But I don't ask you want, why don't us, do you want a picture of a scuzzy British family who were just, you know, sort of like having a bloody salad? Why do you want that on your phone? Come on. Come on. I'm really sad. Are you going to the Royal Court today? Uh, rehearsals, yeah.

Come on. Honestly, Leslie, I can't tell you how much I love this. I love your home. I love your dog. Oh, look, Miss Miggins has got one paw raised. Come on, hon. In a sort of, I think I want food now. Does she get fed now?

Oh, yeah, she needs her. Yeah, she needs her crunchies. You're going to have your crunchies, miggins. You've got white floorboards and the dog, me too. Optimistic, isn't it? I really hope you enjoyed listening to that, and do remember to rate review and subscribe on iTunes.