Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Louise Minchin (Part Two)

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

The wonderful Louise Minchin joins Emily and Raymond from home in Cheshire this week, with her lovely labradors Waffle and Ruby!In this part of our chat, Louise tells us about her time presenting BBC Breakfast, her fight for equal pay and then why she ultimately made the decision to leave (much to Emily's dismay!)We also chat about Louise’s brilliant new book Isolation Island - and how her love for reality tv and going on I’m A Celebrity inspired her to write such a gripping thriller. Isolation Island will be out on 12th September - you can pre-order your copy here, or you can buy a signed copy here!Follow Louise on Instagram @louiseminchinFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to part two of my chat with the wonderful Louise Minchin. Do go and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already. You can pre-order Louise's brilliant new thriller, Isolation Island now, before it comes out on September the 12th. And I really recommend you do, because it will genuinely keep you up all night wanting to know what happens. And I'd also love it if you subscribe to us at Walking the Dog. Here's Louise and Waffle and Ruby and Ray Ray.

You ended up going to journalism when you graduated, which I presume had been on. the cards and was something you were moving towards because you worked for the World Service didn't you originally? When I was at uni I did that really embarrassing uni thing of writing for the student newspaper. We all did it. Have you got the pieces you wrote? Even, no, I had the good sense Louise at one point to give myself a fake byline because I I wonder if I knew that I'd be ashamed one day and stuff I was writing. So I called myself Becky Collins for some reason. What a great name. It was a great name.

I honestly thought, I'm going to look back and feel a bit ashamed of it. Did you? I mean, I knew that it was terrible, but I still tried. I did two things and things could have done two ways because I also used to two photography as well for the student. I think it was called The Chronicle. I remember setting up a fake photo with my friend cleaning windows because it was a piece about students getting extra jobs. And I've still, I've got that photo and I've got the articles and they are just, So bad. But we all got to start somewhere, haven't we? So I did that. And then when I left

uni, I got my first job, as it were, was as a translator for Operation Rally, Rally International, as it became in Chile. And I went on expedition essentially there. And I was really, you know, I was 23 or 22, whatever it was. And everybody else who was on the expedition, the people who were on the expedition, some of them were older than me, but I was staff. So I was in charge of them, which was super awkward. But one of the things, though I think there was three of us or so who could speak Spanish on the expedition, and I would have to do all the media interviews. So if something went wrong, I was the spokesperson. But there was a moment when I was being interviewed on a tiny radio station in deepest, darkest Patagonia for an hour about the expedition and things like that.

And I just sat there. I didn't know about, I didn't even know journalism was a real, or radio, journalism was a job and I just sat there looking at him and I thought, gosh, oh my gosh, this is a job that do what you are doing, interview people and ask them questions. And I'd never occurred to me that that could be an actual job. And I just thought, that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do when I get back. And I didn't know how to do it or where to start. But I did start in the Latin American section of the World Service because they need people

who could speak Spanish. So that's why I started. And you went on to have a very special. successful career. And you've got the BBC Breakfast job, which a lot of people understandably know you best for because you did it for so long. And that started in, it was around 2012, I think, wasn't it? I started way before that. I started when Mia, I think, was first born just before that because I was fill in. So when everybody else was on holiday, I would fill in. So I'd done it for 10 years off and on beforehand. But I got the permanent job going back to the Hong Kong thing when it

moved up to Salford because not everybody wanted to move. So there you go. Again, Louise saying, no, we'll push through. Yeah. And I've moved my, you know, I've been moving in my life before. So let's go for it. Why not? The optimism, you see. Comes in handy, Louise. It does, doesn't it? It really does. I loved watching you on that show so much because it's an interesting thing where, you know, you do become very, it's really odd, but I did feel quite sad when you No, but you can't help it, can you? Because I just, there's in a sort of old intimacy to having that. It's every morning when I've got my pyjamas on and I've got no makeup on.

I'm glad you said you had your pajamas on because some people say they, you know. Don't fraternise with those people, Louise. And then I think, oh, oh, just see how Louise is doing. Oh, gosh, would you? Oh, gosh. Well, I think that's just the energy that you have when you put on those breakfast shows. And then I'd be like, oh, no, she's gone. You did that for, you know, it was a huge part of your career.

Yes, it really was the backbone of it, to be honest. And you've said, you know, obviously it's an incredible job. I know the thing you probably, I did a breakfast radio show for a long time. And I know the thing I got asked the most was about the sleep thing every day. You know, you feel like just wearing a T-shirt saying about five hours on an average night. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 346 would have been my version. that. Really? People would always ask what time do you wake up? Yeah. That's Ruby. She's now bored.

Oh, hi, Ruby. You're right, Roobes. I'll take you out in a minute. Good girl. She's lying beside me. She goes like this. You'll hear it in a minute. A lab's noises like that. I just go mad for them. I love it. The strange noises. They would go. So I'd get up in the morning and I would come down and even the dogs knew. Even the Labrador's knew that this was not the time to wake up. So they wouldn't even say, say hello in the morning at 3.46. They just be like, she's going and go back to sleep. Getting up that early for that long, I mean, it can sort of, that sleep disruption can quite seriously sort of impact your mental health a little bit sometimes. Did you ever, Ruby? She agrees. Was that Ruby a waffle? Oh, now Waffle thinks there's somebody at the door. So, no, no, we're all okay.

Awful? I did this really stupid thing when Waffle was a baby, letting her. her bark at people because I thought she'd be my protector and this is now what happens. Like she's got Tourette's. If I say hello, there. It's so embarrassing. Shush, no dogs. It's really fine. We're all fine. Come here. Come here. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. No, no, no, no. It's all fine. Do you know what? Now my dog started going mad. No, she started barking. No, Ruby, here, come here. I'll have to put you away if you're going to park. Shish, shush, shish, Anyway, so I didn't realize until I finished how much of an impact it had on every single part of my life. You know, like on a Saturday night, I wouldn't go out late.

I mean, this is not a terrible thing, is it? But because I knew on Sunday I had to get up at 3.46 in the morning, just every, I was completely paranoid about sleep. Not really, I mean, gosh, I wish I'd been better about it because I didn't go to bed early at night because I've got two growing up children and a husband and two dogs, etc. So I didn't get into bed until really 9.30 would be optimistic. And then you're not asleep till 10, are you? I knew the only way I could get through it was by having a sleep in the afternoon. But it was just, I can't describe to you the fog of it. It's like being permanently jet lagged, permanently exhausted,

and you have no idea until you give up how it's like seeped into like octopus tentacles into every part of your life. It's funny even doing radio. That was only once a week. But I remember someone said, what's it like? And I said, I'll tell you what it feels like. It feels for the next three days. Be and mind, you were having to do this, you weren't getting a break. I would say, it feels like I've just flown to Perth and back. Yes. Yes. That's how it felt. It's like, it's that sick feeling as well that you get. Sick. That's a very good point. Yes, sick. And then sometimes I'd

sleep in the afternoon and I would feel, this sounds ridiculous, that I was actually below the level of my bed, you know, and I was like one inch into the mattress. That's how tired I was. Like the weight of it was huge. Sleep deprivation aside, you were so good at that role. And I was wondering, what personality traits of yours do you think made you good at that job? And I know it's hard for women to admit they're good at things. But I'd like to hear, you know, you single out the qualities that you think made you good at that job. I love people.

I love people's stories. I love letting people tell their stories. and I was very, I'm very good at doing three things at once, but I can only do that when the red light is on. So I'm chaotic. Like you, no, oops. I'm not going to do anything. You know, as soon as the red, you know,

I have ability to, like with that focus about, you know, doing the A level, et cetera, I have, I can do extreme focus really well, which is not always a great quality because if I'm not focused on you, then, you know, I can, I don't see things sometimes. But so extreme focus. So when that red light went on, I was in the moment. My brain was on fire.

You know, you're talking about the sort of dopamine and the adrenaline and all the rest of it. I could literally hear three conversations. I could be thinking about an interview that's coming up next as the same time as doing an interview that was going on. And I can't say I can do that all the time, but there was something about my reaction to being live on telly that made my brain. really work. I was on fire. And I didn't come across like that, but my brain was like that. I was totally in control of everything that was going on. And it was really interesting.

Dan and Charlie were incredibly supportive, but Charlie would always say to me, you know this, Louise, if something came up, you know, and I would go, oh yeah, I do know this. So in those moments, my brain was really firing on all cylinders. It was amazing, actually. And I love that job. And I think if you love your job, that shows. I cared. I really cared about the audience. I really cared about trying to tell those difficult stories sometimes at a particularly, you know, you there in your pajamas that, you know, you don't know who's watching.

You don't know, for example, that a parent hasn't walked out of the room and left their six-year-old with a telly on. I was always really conscious that you talked about that intimate time of day, that people have let you into their houses, their, breakfast rooms, their bedrooms, whatever it is, sitting rooms. And I wanted to always make sure that I told them as far as I could knew what the truth was as gently in some ways, because there were really tough things to tell as I possibly could. So I'm not sure I've answered your question, but there's quite a lot there. You really have, though. I think you have answered it very well. And are your parents still with us, by the way, Louise? Yes. Yeah. How did the Graysons? The Graysons must have been, did they watch you every morning?

My parents aren't together. Oh, they're not together. They've been a divorce long time now. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think it was weird for them because, first of all, to the writing point, I've always told, not told stories, told, you know, like, I've always wanted to tell stories, like, and when I was little, I would tell them stories and they'd go, oh, gosh, is she finished? You know, when is this over?

This is so boring. And for me to do that day on day to the nation was brilliant. How does it feel being, because it's a high profile job. And I wonder when you don't come from a family, I suppose an entertainment family, where that's sort of expected or you're mixing a lot with celebrities or people at work in entertainment, does that change anything, the dynamics with your friends and family when you become well known? And how do you navigate that? It was funny with the girls, for example, I always used to say to them,

Oh, you remember when I wasn't on BBC breakfast? And of course, they don't actually remember because guess what? My memory is completely wrong and they have only known me being on BBC breakfast. So for them, it's just normal. Yeah, yeah. Completely normal. I mean, Mia used to try and do you go, mommy, how did Mommy get in the telly? She was really little.

I don't know. I mean, it's difficult to say really because it's so much part of my life. But it's not something I set out to do ever. I never wanted to be a presenter, wanted to be, that was never my goal. My goal was to talk to people, to be a good journalist, to let people tell their stories. So it kind of happened very incrementably and sort of by mistake in some ways. It wasn't, you know, lots of people say to me, I want to be a TV presenter. Well, that was not on my agenda at all.

I loved radio. I absolutely loved radio. and the TV thing sort of really happened by, as I say, by mistake. You're a bit of a pioneer in terms of just fighting for women, really to get the same deal that men get in TV. Funny that. I mean, it's this weird concept that women should be paid the same for the same work. Why would you do that?

But you were, you know, back when you started as well, I mean, it's crazy that this fit, that felt like a fairly new thing still, still having the argument and the debate. And you sort of fought for, you know, equal pay, didn't you? Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, it's not about money. It's about being valued and being valued the same way as the person sitting next to you when you're doing the same job and you're doing the same interviews.

And it was really, I thought that was my story. I thought that I was the one, for whatever reasons, and I'd been given a lot of reasons over the years, that I wasn't paid as much as other people of perhaps men, essentially. I thought it was my story until it came out in that momentous day when BBC had to reveal the pay, everybody who got over, I think it was £150,000 at the time, and it was pretty much all men, apart from a couple of women, I think. And at that point, I just thought, oh, wow, this is actually way more serious than I thought it was. And again, to that point, I'm now going to dig in because I do care for me, but I care in a much wider, more powerful way, actually, because when you're fighting or taking on something on behalf of other people, it's even more empowering to.

think, right, okay, I don't mind how long this takes, how difficult it is, I'm going to do this. And I did. But that's difficult when you were, it was when you were working there, presumably. Oh my gosh, can you imagine? I mean, I look back and think I must be absolutely, was it a bit, I'm going to say, was it a bit orcs, Louise? A little bit awkward, taking your employer, you know, on a fast track towards a tribunal. horrific. I mean, no, I take back horrific. Yeah, no, I mean, it was, it's because it wasn't the people who I worked with, essentially, was it? And I'm sure they supported you. It was just the, it was the system. It had what had been, you know, what had been allowed to happen over many, many years to many, many women.

And so, yeah, it was it, I just, but I didn't, I didn't really care. I just thought, I'm just going to do this thing. And if it ends badly for me and so be it. And so you just challenged it and you just asked to be paid the same. Well, I didn't. It was it. It was, yeah, I had a union. I had a member of the NUJ. They were fantastic.

I'd always, I've always paid my union subs. Still pay them now. So they were amazing. But I can't, I mean, it took, it took years. It took a long, long time. And I had already pointed out to them many years before this. So it took a long time. And it wasn't, and it's not without its impact, is it?

It's exhausting. It's demoralizing. and I'm delighted I did it, but it's not about the money. It's at the end of the day. It's about being valued. And you can't pay that back. And you go, oh, by the way, we did think you were great, by the way, at the time when we were paying you less. But you got the money in the end.

I did, yeah. Yeah, I did. And the best thing is, the best thing for me is that. Just like, you know what, Louise, just like you got the A. The best thing for me is that the people who sit on that sofa now, hopefully as long as they can hold the line continue and that will continue hopefully forever. That must make you feel great though.

It's absolutely fantastic. I mean I'd love to hope and I'm not sure it's entirely true that it also, because that's all very well, isn't it, being the sort of front facing the front line of that. But I hope that has trickled down, you know, to all my producers and researchers and all those other fabulous women who are, you know, holding down those jobs as well.

You know, that's what you want. It's wanting to have trickle down. And I know it has an impact because other people in other industries have come to me and said, I have asked for this because of you and I've got it or whatever it is, have been felt empowered to go and have their own battles. So that's important for me is to sort of drop the pebble in the pond and that to go on having an impact. It's amazing. That's more amazing than getting it myself.

You chose to leave, which I think surprised a lot of people. Certainly I was quite across with you. Sorry. But you're not alone, by the way. I get people still complaining. But it feels like you had a bit of a sort of seize the day moment, a kind of a bit of an epiphany about making a change in your life. For me, my husband David always said to me,

there'll be a moment, but you know, this was not a decision I took in any way lightly because, you know, financially, obviously I was being paid nicely. Thanks very much. So, you know. What took you so long, money? That was good. I should have stayed. I mean, I should have stayed.

shouldn't I? Take advantage of all the actual equal pay. No, I think it's inspired. I think it's so classy. It's like getting angry and anger and angry because of the man, because he won't propose to you. He finally gives you the ring. You're like, yeah, I'm good, actually. Drop the mic. Drop the ring. So, yeah, so it wasn't as it was not a decision I took lightly at all. And David had always said to me, he said, there will be a moment, there will be a moment

when it will be right to go. And, you know, this had been, you know, you make your plan. So you think it was a five-year, it was a five-year plan to move up here where I'm still to Cheshire and work there, et cetera. And then it became, it morphed into 10 years. And I actually, what I did, I was sitting right here where I am now. And I thought, right, okay, today I probably had a really bad, you know,

a couple of days feeling terribly jet-lied and all the rest of it. Today, I'm going to write myself a list of the reasons to stay and the reasons to leave. and I'm ashamed to say, not ashamed to say, but there were lots of reasons to leave. Number one was the absolute total utter exhaustion. Yeah, and the pressure and lots and lots of things. And then the other one, I was like, okay, right, reasons to stay. And I stopped and my pen stopped. And I just thought, whoa, that's a sign that there in itself, that paper.

And I found it the other day. and I'm not going to say all the reasons. But there were lots. And I thought, well, you know, let's be brave. Let's do this thing. Let's, you know, it's terrifying to do that to let go of something that you really wanted, you really loved, etc. And I felt like I was sort of jumping off a cliff

and not knowing if it was going to land on water and how deep the water was. And that was a really scary moment. But I'm so glad. I'm so glad I did it. most of all because I get loads of sleep. After you left, you decided to do something which I certainly wasn't expecting. You signed up to go on, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here.

Yes. And that does connect us very neatly to this brilliant book you've written. It's such a page turner and the characters are so brilliant. And just to give people an idea, I don't need to give you an idea because you obviously know this. No, I like hearing it from you because not many people have read it. It's so exciting to me to talk about it because I'm like, what do you think? What do you think of this person, that person? So carry on.

Well, if I was, you know, discussing it on good reads or whatever. And I can't guarantee I won't be. Such a great idea for a book, by the way, because it's based around this sort of hidden camera celebrity reality show. We've all seen them. We've all seen them. But what's clever about this is that it's a mash-up of lots of different shows. So there's elements of the traitors, elements of I'm a celeb, elements actually of Squid Game, I thought. Which I've not even seen, but apparently so.

Carry on. And Big Brother as well. The details are so spot on and it felt so believable, which is really key to me, because had that show, had it ever at any point felt like, well, that wouldn't happen or that doesn't feel right. I suppose because of all that experience you have in the world of TV, and you've actually experienced I'm a celebrity to get me out of it in, and I'm going to call it in the horrible one, because you didn't get to go to Australia.

You went to the Welsh Castle. I mean, the first question I'm going to have to ask you is, were you thinking when you were out there, Louise, do you know what? This could be quite good material one day for a book. No, but there's a big but. Oh, gosh, I'm so, well, I don't even know what to say. I'm so excited about all those references about all the reality shows,

and the different shows and traitors, by the way, which didn't come out until I was like 90% through the novel. and I saw traitors and I thought, oh no, this is just like my book. Oh, yes, this is just like my book. It's not exactly like, because as you say, there's lots of other thoughts and genres all mixed in. So first of all, the decision to go into I'm a Celebrity, they have asked me for years, by the way, to go in that show. And I am, as you can tell by my book, a massive fan of I'm a celebrity and lots and lots of reality TV. I just absolutely love it. So I went in and I was already working on an idea about a character.

She's called Lauren. You will know who she is because she's an investigative journalist who's my main protagonist, who I love. She's much cooler than I am and she's much better journalist. She goes undercover and does kind of like scary investigations. She had been in my head since I moved up with BBC breakfast since 2012. Her name is based on my makeup artist Lauren, who I still haven't told I need to tell, by the way. I always said to her, I'm going to write a book about someone called Lauren.

Anyway, so she was in my head and I'd been working on idea. I just didn't know where to put her. I knew I wanted her to be in something, in an investigation somewhere. And then I was in the castle and that was all fine. And I wasn't even thinking about it then until that storm hit. So Storm Arwen hit the castle. We obviously had no information about it because we're on I'm a celebrity. and actually it was COVID, so very little communication.

You know, everything's a secret. You're not allowed to anything that's going on outside, except it was pretty obvious because bits were flying off the castle. And it felt frightening, presumably. Oh, my gosh, well, you can feel that, hopefully, in isolation island. It felt really frightening. There were doors slamming. There was all sorts of stuff going on.

And we eventually, after something, we slept the night, well, we all had to sleep in the, we had to leave our bedrooms, we weren't allowed to go out into the courtyard to where the loo was. We were only loud in this one particular space that was safe. And then the next day we all got taken out of I'm a celebrity and put in sort of Airbnbs, on our own, by the way, across North Wales. And went back to I'm a celebrity. Then as soon as I left, literally probably was the day after I left, not even the day after I left.

I just phoned up my lovely literation that said, Lauren is going to a reality show. And there's going to be a storm. And it was just so brilliant to have that moment where you just think, I know what I want to write. I know where I want to send her and I want to have enormous fun with it and be production. Because on those shows, honestly, they must be having such a laugh,

mustn't they going, right, let's do this or let's do that to the hapless celebrities who are being paid money to be there, etc. But I just thought, oh gosh, I can have great fun with this. And I want you as the reader to feel like you're in there and that claustrophobia of it

and being isolated with these people who, you may not really, You may actually really dislike or you might like. And that constant 24-hour surveillance. I remember waking up on I'm a celebrity. I would wake up hours before everybody else, by the way, hours. That was my BBC Breakfast's sleepless legacy, wasn't it? And I'd sit up and it all be quiet until I sat up and then I'd hear,

as the camera focused on me. And that just freaked me out. I wanted you to feel that extraordinary kind of creepy feeling whether you're being everything you do, everything you say is being monitored. Do you think some people are able to control themselves a lot, you know, that they're on all the time and some people let themselves go a bit more?

Yeah, I mean, I'm extremely annoying and I know this from producers. I'm super aware that there's a camera on 24 hours a day. The reason they have people like journalists, in reality shows is we can be the storytellers, can't we? They can get us into the room and they can say, so what happens? So that's why they have you in. But on the other hand, I'm really, really, I'm just hopefully never going to quite let it go. And that's probably to my detriment, actually, because there's probably things I should have said

at the time, which would have been funny. I think you came out of that show brilliantly. You sort of came across a bit like their heroine of isolation island. Really? Well, I think you came out of that show. Just, you felt like the reliable narrator. You know, you felt like, which is you need that person, as you say. And you do.

I think my favorite, I'm a celebrity Louise Minchin moment, the couple, was, oh, I'm a big fan. Oh, flesh me. And I liked it when David Ginola said, hey, don't go too bossy, Louise. Oh, that was, that was the moment. That was the moment, wasn't it? I mean, what a fool. Because basically everybody who was like me, my age, thought David Janola was the absolute whatever. Yeah?

I mean, what an idiot. So he was basically telling, I'm sorry, David. He was basically telling his core audience that they were let that pussy. Yeah. And guess what happened? As soon as that happened, he was out. don't piss off midlife women don't piss off women of our age

well done everybody thank you so much for backing me in that because I was so upset because I was not I don't think I was I know I wasn't being bossy in that moment I was just trying to get I can say this shit done you know sometimes stuff needs to just get done

and I'm just like I just said everybody let's just let's just let never and again the rebellious me never mind about the rules I'll take the rap let's just get this sorted that's what I'd say what were you doing You were just clearing, you were just getting things organised, weren't you? Yeah.

And I think he felt he was being ordered around or something. He wasn't even being ordered around. He just got out of bed. But I just think, you know, that he was, it was really telling because, you know, to sort of say that to me when, yeah, it was just such, I was really upset. I was really, really upset. And that whole thing about the cameras, I knew where the cameras were. So I went into my bed and cried. Well, was there a part of me thinking, good.

They're going to see this? No, they didn't see it because I know where they were. So you didn't want the cameras to see you cry. No, I don't want the cameras to see me. I was devastated because it's all highly emotional. And he did it in front of everybody. I mean, obviously all the cameras as well,

but in front of all my, you know, all the other, I'm a celebrity people. So it was just super mortifying, really. But there you go. I was upset just because it felt like. It just felt so, it was so demeaning. And so, and not what I was doing. and oh, it was really, I was really, I was really upset. I think without even realizing it, though, I think it's also, especially for women,

especially of our age, where I think what people don't realize is your whole life, you're told, don't speak out, don't be bossy, don't have opinions, you know. If you have opinions, then you're arrogant, you know, or your shrill, if you speak in anything other than a Marilyn Monroe breathy voice, you know. And similarly with the bossy thing, that was. feels very much more aimed at female. I forgot that it was bossy. Yeah, I didn't forget.

I never forgot it because it was for the reasons that we're discussing. It was, don't go to bossy, Louise. No, I think I remember the, who do you think you are? I mean, I might have just, who do you think you are? But I might, that might be just my brain telling me that. I've never watched it back, actually. I don't want to. But the irony of it was after Don't Go Too Bossy Louise, Louise was the one.

When she was being covered in sort of mealworms and cockroaches and rats, was, so I'm in these tubes going, oh dear, I do apologize. Oh, I'm so sorry. You're even polite to the rats. To the rats. I didn't have rats, but there were cockroaches, mealworms. Oh, gosh. Yeah, all over me.

You know what? I wouldn't have missed that for the world. It was, well, I especially wouldn't because it's given me such great inspiration to write a book. And just to kind of get into the space of it. So these celebrities, I don't want to give too much away, because there are so many twists and turns. It's one of those books where you're just, you're reading on and you think, no, no.

I don't want to give too much way, but what I think we can say is that these celebrities have been sent to this sort of remote island, not the glamorous Australia one, in the middle of, it's sort of Scotland, isn't it? Northwest Scotland. It's basically, if anybody's been to a mile or something that all, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Somewhere like that. And there are a really interesting bunch of characters. We see it, as we say, from Lauren's perspective, who I see as Louise mentioned, basically. She's a pretty... I'm going to take that. I love Lauren. She's a sort of fearless investigative reporter and she is at a point in her career where she feels things, I guess, I've come to a standstill, but she needs something to happen. Yeah, something, yeah, she's, she has. She's hit a brick wall, a big, bad brick wall. So many things work for me. I think what I loved is that the way you've described the

celebrities because it's a hard thing to do to create fake celebrities as it were for novels. And I often create, sometimes when I write about made up celebrities, I think, oh, I don't know if I believe that. Whereas these were so believable and so real, these characters. You've got the influencers with the sort of perfect eyebrows and the, you know, the lash extensions. I love those two. I love them all.

That's the thing. They're very real to me. They're so real that they're called, they're called Holly and, Tazee and I have called Ruby and Waffle Holly and Taze. That's how real. You know, like when you, I always call the dogs by the wrong names, the daughters by the wrong names, you know, and I was like, Holly Tate, oh gosh, Ruby Waffle. I love those.

I've never seen a pair of, you know, like a pair go into a reality show. And I love listening to those pairs of pair podcasts and I thought, right, I'd really like to explore a pair because obviously they have a different agenda. They're working together, aren't they? when other people can't work together. So I love them. And there's a sort of kind of Dragon's Den type business woman who's quite, who's a great character. And I was wondering, when you created those sort of celebrity characters, did you draw inspiration?

Obviously characters are never based on one person. So did you draw inspiration from people you've interviewed and worked with? Because that must be quite useful just taking bits and bulbs like a magpie from people, you know. I think it's a magpie. It's a magpie approach. And also, the strange thing is you start with one thing and then you lean in and they do start taking on a life of their own. So I started with sort of like sketches of them,

but then they definitely sounds weird, start writing themselves. But for example, the rugby player, I've met so many brilliant rugby players. And actually he's inspired by one particular one. But mostly they were magpies. I mean, most of the characters are an amalgamation of people I've met, People I've watched on TV and imagination, just them kind of taking on a life of their own. And I love the idea of playing roles. And, you know, some of them in there are definitely trying to play roles and not necessarily be true to themselves. And Lauren can see through that,

I think. And hopefully as viewers, I think as viewers we can see through. And hopefully that's what you get a sense of in this. You can, not of all of them, because there's some of them, who, I don't know, I can't say too much, can I? But yeah, there's little mannerisms. But I have to say, I did not see the ending coming at all. Good. What really worked about this book for me, and I think it's the sign of a really well-written thriller, is that there were points when I was sort of suspecting every single character at one point of wrongdoings. We won't say what wrongdoings. But it was a kind of, I don't trust anyone. You're all, what are you doing? And I think that's a good sign because I was

being, I felt I was being pulled in all directions. So I very much, as we say, you know, I knew absolutely Lauren was going in that. I knew the setting and I knew, I said, I had the kind of the sketch of those, the 10 they are characters. I had the sort of sketch line of them. And as I say, they changed a lot. So much. And I knew the ending. I knew what was, I knew who was going to die. Obviously, it's a thriller by the way. I'm not giving too much away. And I knew the reason lie they were going to die and blah, blah, blah. And I thought I knew the ending. And then it changed. So even I, because I'm having a conversation with my husband in the kitchen just behind me, I can see he was standing over there. And I was explaining, poor husband, he's been bored to tears by this nearly, nearly.

I was explaining, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I looked at him and I was like, no, that's not what happened. I've got this completely wrong. It's actually going to be something else. What was great about your book is what is, I suppose, made the show so successful, those sort of shows. is that it's also carefully planned in terms of, well, what would happen if you put this person in with this type of person? And that's why it works so brilliantly. This is new to me, but I kind of, somebody must have said to me, put your characters in a room and you know your characters.

You know their motivation. You know how they are. Put them in a situation and see what happens. And genuinely, I get goosebumps. There's one scene which comes very late in the book, which my editor said to me, we need another scene between these two characters. And I just couldn't, she said, you've got to find it. And I couldn't see it. And I went through a whole rewrite again. And it was a question of one character turning left instead of right and boom. Wow. Best seen, I think, in the book. And it came really late. So the characters, it sounds so, I used to talk to writers and say, what are you talking about? But actually, you know, you know these people. You put them in a room. And like you say, on a reality TV show, you put people together who are not going to get on or whatever it is. And stuff happens. And that's when. magic happens, hopefully. It gave me that similar sense of satisfaction when I watch a really good film like a thriller at the end. Like, you know, when you see a film like Jagged Edge or, you know,

one of those classic thrillers where you think, oh, okay, I'm glad I invested in this. Do you know what I mean? Like I had a really good, satiated feeling afterwards. I felt, you know, it's a, it's a brilliant book. And I, I can't honestly tell you how much I loved it. I'm not, I'm going to let you go, Louise, but before I do, I'm afraid I am going to have to ask about your love story. because I'm a little obsessed with it. You and your husband. Yeah. It's extraordinary.

It is like something out of a rom-com. It's like you were fated to me, isn't it? It would be a good rom-com, wouldn't it? Well, would it be a good rom-com? I don't know. We need a bit more jeopardy. No, I'm saying it could be the next book. I like writing thrillers.

They have to be a murder. Yeah, you don't want to kill him. That's about it. Well, when I was little, we used to go on holiday in Cornwall to North Cornwall. I loved it. There was this family who were next to us on the beach and they had so many friends. Because my parents had me when I was really young, I was always the oldest child. So it was pretty boring for me.

They'd always have to be like the six-year-olds when I was 14 that I'd have to babysit. So that was my thing. But on the other side of the beach, there was this family. It wasn't a family. It was like five of them. They had about 40 of them. They're having a riot. They're playing guitars.

They're surfing. They're just having such fun. And I used to sit there in that kind of really phomo way. Gosh, I really want to be in their going. But I was not in that. gang. I never even talked to their gang. And there was this one boy who used to play his guitar and he had his kinks t-shirt on and I just, I was besotted with him, besotted, never ever talked to him. He used to write letters because that's what you did in those days to my best friend.

She can't find them, thank God, about, you know, the guy with the kinks t-shirt. It was a king's t-shirt. Anyway, forward one many, many years. And honestly, he had this, I had this little candle burning in my head for him. Many years. later, I'm literally, I think, leaving university, so I'm like 22, and I speak to my best friend, Ali, and I've met her older brothers, and they're much, much more sophisticated than us because they're three and five years older and they've got cars and jobs. And you used to go to parties and they'd be there and they'd be like really super good looking, but I would never talk to them because they were much older. I mean, much older. It's five years. I'm giving a bit away already.

I'd have to write this better for the book, won't I? Leave the spoilers. And one of her brothers gets cancer and I sort of go through it with her because, you know, she's a really good friend and we hear all about it. Anyway, eventually many, I mean, I've left university and we have this conversation and I can picture it again. I have a very visual memory for conversations. And she says to me, oh, we used to go on holiday to North Cornwall when we were little. So did I, which beach, same beach, kidding, no way. Did one of your brothers used to wear a King's T-shirt? You imagine. It's bonkers, isn't it? And she was, of course, called Ali Minchin.

She was called Ali Minchin and she looked at me and she said, how do you know that? And I just said, oh, that's hilarious. Did you say I have had a crush on your brother? I said, I was in love with him when I was 13 or 12 or 14 or whatever, whatever the age you had crushes. I was like, oh my gosh, that's absolutely hilarious. I was in love with him when I was 14. And she said, oh my God. Anyway, so forward one, I don't know how many years later, a few years, and I see him again. And I, oh, there was one moment. There was a key moment, actually. I think before I knew that he was the Kinks T-shirt person, I'd seen him at a party. And I knew all the cancer story, but I'd never been brave enough to speak to him.

But I saw him, and I went up to him and I said, oh, hello, I'm Louise and I'm one of Ali's friends. And I know you've not been really well, and it's really nice to see you. Okay? I mean, you know, I was really stepping up at this point. I was stupid scared. And at that point, that's where the conversation went. He was about to open his mouth and some guy went, Oh, Dave, what happened to all your hair?

Have you had cancer or something? And he turned on his heel and he walked away. Anyway, I then realized a few years after that, and I'll have to get the order right now when I'm writing it for a novel, that he was the guy that I'd been in love for the restaurant. So I went, I saw him at this part, another party, and I bounce up to him and I said, oh my gosh, it's so funny. I used to be in love with you when I was a teenager.

And literally, he looked at me, he goes, when you chucked your boyfriend, why don't you give me a call? Oh, do you know what? I'd have gone, there's something that's very Dondray for that. I'm all over that. That's quite cool, isn't it? Yes, pretty cool. He's pretty cool, still pretty cool.

And I bounced away laughing my head off because I was, you know, with someone else. Anyway, over a period of nine months. Nor for long, Louise Minchin. No, a period of like about nine months. I, you know, because he wasn't my friend. I would see him and he said it to me two more times over the nine months. Wow.

And on the third time, you can guess what I did. I don't know if it's appropriate for a nice, so long-holding, fuck-up. I check my boyfriend. Guy who, you know, we're not even phone. even have his phone number and I chucked my boyfriend and then eventually I did have his phone number because Ali was my friend and the rest of his history and you got two go yeah called him up and he's like so you chuck your boyfriend first thing he said to me I mean super annoying that was 27 years ago it does

make me fully you and maybe fated to meet somehow I don't know we're we're really lucky we're terribly happy we've got two gorgeous girls two gorgeous labradores two rescue ponies life's good oh Louise well I want to just it's been so lovely chatting to you and I honestly cannot recommend your book enough. It's so brilliant. Go buy it, please people. I'm going to ask you one question and I'm going to let you go. If I asked your family, what would they say? I'm going to force you to say something really lovely about yourself. What would they say? I don't know. I can do that. Go on. You've got it in you. I think you can. Go on. What's the question? I would just be interested to know if they

were talking about you. They said, what do you love most about mom? Oh my gosh. What would they say? I would say, what would they say? Well, I'm chaos. We've already established that. Too self-deprecating, not allowed. I think they would say her enthusiasm for life, probably. Do you know what? It's a bit Labrador-esque.

I'm a bit of a Labrador. I love that about you. I'm definitely Labrador. Well, I've adored chatting to you. Go on by Isolation Island. And Louise, can I just say bye-bye to Ruby? Waffle, Ruby. They've actually gone to sleep.

It's so lovely and sunny, they've gone to sleep. And stay on and I'll talk about the book to you a little bit more. Bye, Ruby, bye, Waffle. Bye-bye. They're asleep. Take care. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed.

And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.